Talking Dateline: True Confession

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Hi, everybody. I'm Josh Mankiewicz, and we are talking Dateline.
And our guests today are Keith Morrison. Hi, Keith.
How do you do? Nice to meet you, Josh. Wow.
Starting off great right from the beginning. And Shane Bishop, Dateline producer and producer of this episode and many, many other Dateline episodes.
Yes, we should say producer extraordinaire when we refer to Shane. I think that means old, but I'm happy to be here with you too.
Thank you. It uses most of the letters in elderly.
So this episode is called True Confession. Now, if you have not listened to it already or if you haven't seen it on television, it is right below this in the list of podcasts that you just chose from.
So go there, listen to it, or you can watch it on television or stream it on Peacock and then come back here. When you come back today, we're going to have some questions for Keith and for Shane Bishop, who has been following this case for more than a decade.
And Keith also has a, an extra clip from his interview with Chris Tapp that you're going to play for us. And then also we are going to answer some questions of yours about this episode that came in on social media.
So hang around for that. So let's talk Dateline.
Okay. So what an episode.
You know, I didn't know the story. So, you know, when I'm watching it, I'm thinking like they're exonerating him too soon.
Like what's in the rest of this story, right? Like he's going to commit another crime or it's going to turn out he actually did do. I keep thinking like, wait, this thing's over with like 15 minutes to go.
I couldn't imagine what was coming next. And what was coming next was just one whipsawing twist after another.
Yeah. It's an amazing story.
And as you said, Shane, it just dragged me along for over a decade as we covered this story. It's a whole saga.
It went in a direction that was both satisfying and extremely disconcerting. And I agree with you, Josh.
It turned into a powerful story that we kind of didn't see coming. How did we hear about this story originally? Oh, I grew up in rural Montana and loved to read tiny newspapers.
And I was reading some Idaho newspaper. I'm not even sure which one it was anymore.

And there was a story about a mother of a homicide victim trying to get the guy out who'd been convicted of killing her daughter. And I just thought that was the weirdest thing I'd ever heard of.
And that's how it started. That, I have to say, is something I've not heard of before.
No, it's the most extraordinary thing. The driving force behind this whole case was this unbelievable woman whose persuasive power, whose determination to honor her daughter who was murdered was such that she had police departments and politicians and innocence projects quaking at her feet.
What was Carol's relationship like with police all those years? She was the person pounding on their door. She was the one who wouldn't stop calling, trying to get the attention of anybody who would listen.
Where other people, you know, might give it a lot of effort over a long time, she gave it complete effort over, you know, decades. And I feel for her tremendously.
She's the one who solved the riddle before anybody else.

She's the one who was experimenting with familial DNA

before almost anybody else in the world

was even aware it existed.

She was the one who, you know,

demanded of people who were completely intransigent

that they somehow revise their way of thinking about things.

And I've never met anybody else in my life with that kind of determination

and that kind of, frankly, personal power.

It does illustrate something that we see all the time on Dateline,

which is, you know, families that agitate and families that won't stop.

They don't always get results, but they got a better chance of getting results.

And that certainly was the case here.

They do. You know, if you're a detective and you're working 10 different cases, and one of them is calling you up every day, and you have to go back and check to see what the latest is, it's more likely you're going to make some progress on that one.
This also is one of the things that is familiar to Dateline viewers, which is Carol's life split right in two by this, you know, the life she had when her daughter was alive and then the quest she went on afterward. And one of the things that frequently happens is like, you know, then that quest comes to an end, like somebody gets arrested.
In this case, somebody got arrested, imprisoned, then released, and somebody else arrested. And now what do you do? What's next? This is not going to occupy your life anymore.
So what does occupy your life? That's a tough one. It really is.
I think everybody who knows Carol and loves her and cares about her worries about that. Yeah.
This is a story of a bunch of things. It's Carol's story.
It's also the story of some terrible police work followed by some pretty good police work. How'd they miss a suspect living right across the street? Well, the suspect moved away.
He left. Okay, but.
And they had to bother to collect his DNA. You know, they forgot all about him.
Yeah. Like you said in the episode, Keith, it's police work 101.
Yeah. His name's in the file the whole time from the day after.
No alibi. And he lives right there.
Proximity. Yeah.
Right across the street. Yeah.
I mean, they were looking at other things. Well, they were.
They were concentrating on a theory of what happened here. And the theory was that this group of people who would hang out of the river, since she, the victim, hung out of the river too, that somehow they, you know, turned on her.
And one of them raped her and killed her. And that's not a crazy idea.
I mean, that's the crowd she hung out with. That's those are the people you should be looking at.
Turns out, like, those people are not living lives completely free of contact with police. And it's a mistake that was made over and over the case as the years passed, because whatever detective was in charge focused mainly on pulling in the River Kids and re-interviewing them.
You know, Destiny must know some name. Jer must know some name.
And nobody knew anything. Sure.
And Destiny, of course, was somebody who said some things because she thought that was what she was supposed to say. And they so locked on to that statement.
And that's another example of sort of police work gone wrong here, which is you're supposed to examine that kind of thing. Not just what people tell you, but whether or not you think they're telling you the truth or whether they're telling you what they think you want to hear.
But let's now praise the fact that they were open to sort of admitting that they had made a mistake. Because, as you guys know, having covered cases like this before, frequently you'll find prosecutors and investigators who, when confronted with evidence that someone else was involved in the crime, their answer is either, no, they weren't, or, okay, well, they were a co-conspirator of the person we already locked up, but we're not letting anybody out.
And in this case, they were definitely open to seeing a mistake that they had made and then going out and getting the right person. Well, let's keep in mind they kind of kept a foot in both worlds.
There was quite a bit of time spent with Brian Dripps asking him if he was alone or if someone was with him or if he knew this Chris Tapp fellow other than what he'd seen on Dateline. So, you know, Bill Squires, the guy who manned the door at the crime scene in 96 and then turns out to be the captain who solves the case.
He still believed up through that interview until it was ruled out that TAP was there. It speaks to how difficult it is to unlodge a belief once it's firmly established in a person's brain.
Yeah, that is the problem with wrongful convictions, which is like it requires undoing so much. I got to say, you did such a great job in getting these people to talk, you know? I mean, okay, Carol's going to want to talk.
She was on a mission, right? Chris isn't necessarily going to want to talk. Jer's not necessarily going to want to talk.
And Destiny, who said something that she knew wasn't true and that helped police convict somebody that later turned out not to be guilty.

Like, that's the kind of person who usually never talks.

But she did.

And I thought she did a great job.

Well, I credit Shane with that.

I mean, he was with them the whole time and was able to let them know that they had nothing to fear talking to us.

It's funny because over the years, you know, I think we've all learned to listen to that little voice in our head as journalists, like, oh, you should do this. You should reach out to someone.
And that's what I did to Chris in September. And I feel so fortunate that we got to talk to him for that last time.
But I have to credit Chris really for all those interviews because he pulled Destiny in kind of by the scruff of the neck and said, you're going to do this. She really didn't want to very much.
He was very willing to kind of gather up his friends and say, you can trust Keith and Shane and they all showed up. Yeah, that's great.
You guys, we're going to have to hang on for just a wee moment here. I've got to...
Oh, you've got to... You've got to pet it.
The patient fellow who wants some attention. Just a second.
Got to open the door. Short break here.
All right, I'm back. We've just taken a little break here for Keith to deal with his dog.
What's your dog's name? I think America wants- Finnegan. Finnegan, the Irish doodle.
He's a crazy dog. He only behaves like he's been in a bar all night.
He really is quite sweet.

When you guys come home and there's detritus all over the floor,

do you say that's Finnegan's wake?

Because I would.

I'm just saying.

You're such a literary guy.

Call me for these anytime you want.

When we come back, we will have more from Keith's final interview with Chris Tapp. Arrelsome.
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Plus, we're introducing each other to the friends we've met since,

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and Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers.

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So why wait?

Listen to Where Everybody Knows Your, wherever you get your podcasts. So let's talk a little bit about that confession.
I'm pretty sure everybody in the audience listening to this or watching said to themselves, why would someone confess to something that they didn't do?

Particularly something as terrible as a rape and murder. You know, there's actually been a lot of, there's a whole body of research into that now.
It's much more common than it was ever thought to be in the past. There is a fairly standard belief until maybe 10, 15 years ago that if a person confessed, they're either guilty or pretty guilty.
And frankly, as far as I can tell, it was through agitation by innocence projects and by efforts which had occurred in other countries. The United States lagged behind in this for many years in establishing rules for the way interrogations could occur.
I know that in the UK, police are not permitted to lie to suspects. You're not allowed to say, but we have your fingerprints at the scene.
You just have to tell me how this happened, you know, if they don't have it. That's correct.
There's a whole series of rules that have to be followed. When they were initially put in place, you know, detectives all around the country were saying, well, that's it.
We'll never solve another crime because the only way you're really going to solve a crime is if you can sweat these people. And we were doing stories about it all the time and, you know, made the trip to England to look at their experiences as a result of some situations that we had encountered doing stories here in the United States.
In America, it's legal for cops to lie to suspects, not here. Could you, for example, go into this interview and say, I have a certain specific piece of evidence that tells me you're guilty, if you don't have that evidence? No, absolutely not.
Can you talk to a suspect for as long as you want to? No, you should only interview for two hours at a time and you should take recognized breaks at mealtimes, prayer times, and nighttime. Well, it was pretty soon thereafter that those new procedures began to get adopted by police forces around America.
And I think, you know, it's much more common now that rules and regulations have been put in place and cameras have been put in place and recordings have been put in place to ensure that these interviews are done correctly and don't produce false confessions. I imagine one of the hardest decisions that Chris faced, that anybody would face, would be to take the plea to be released.
Because you have to plead guilty. You have to say in court that you did this thing that you didn't do.
But on the other hand, like you're out of the slammer. I mean, I get it, but you got to live life as a convict and that's tough.
Yeah. Carroll played a part in that too.
I don't think he hesitated very much to take that deal, but this blew my mind when I heard it. He was going to plead guilty to the rape not the murder but carol insisted that he plead guilty to the murder and not the rape because if he pleaded guilty to the rape he would be labeled a sex offender he would be watched very closely and the chances were very good that he would slip up somehow and be put back in prison so So she actually, I think, went way beyond what anybody would even know what she did.
Because she was convinced by then that he wasn't the guy. Right.
Oh, yeah. I went and visited him in prison at one point, a couple of different points, actually.
And, I mean, it's obviously soul-destroying for anybody. And he was just getting to the point where it was so hard that, you know, even being a convicted murderer was preferable to being inside anymore.
The sense that I got from listening to Chris, watching him, is that he was remarkably free of anger, bitterness, rancor. He seemed more at peace with what had happened to him than I would have been, I think.
I agree with that, yeah. He was a sweet guy, and he was always, you know, very friendly and gentle, pleasant character.
I enjoyed his company. This feels like a good time to play this extra clip that did not make the broadcast.
And this is about Chris, the man who served time for a murder he didn't do, talking about the man who did commit that murder and that right, Mr. Dripps.
So let's listen to that. Did you ever see him in person? Honestly, yeah, I did.
I ran into him once out here in the real world. I was taking somebody to a medical procedure and he was coming from the same medical building and he was surrounded by two guards.
The transportation guards were walking him and he walked in front of my car and I was in the back of the car. So we saw each other.
So I saw him, he saw me, and then when he got into the van to go back to the county jail county jail because it was before his conviction we were able to look each other in the eye did you say that's no not I don't have that again that was my one opportunity probably in this lifetime to ever say anything that man I still have nothing ever said to him boy there had to be a moment though locking eyes with that guy all that hatred all that all that frustration all that built up inside me for all those years and that was my one opportunity i probably could have got him that day i mean honest truth i don't know but again i can't continue to live in the past like i've you know i've said it many times before this one act will never define the person i am or the person i'm wanting to become or who i will be yeah so again if i if i fight into that temptation of able to do that to that individual, it proves to the world that I could be that monster they always thought I could be. I was able to survive it.
That's the most important thing at the end of the story. And they haven't been able to run me out of town or take me away from anything like they did 26 years ago.
Determined to stay there in town? I don't know if I'm determined to stay here in town, but'll see where the world takes me you know I mean the world's different now this is the first time in my life in 26 years from incarceration to even being released you know six and a half years ago this is the first time truly in my life that I'm alone I'm by myself yeah I'm free so I we're gonna see how the world works and we'll figure it out as we go. It's a very different feeling now, huh? Truly.
That's kind of what I'm talking about. I mean, that's a guy thinking, I would say, on a different level than a lot of people would be once being released from incarceration for a crime that they were completely uninvolved in.
And the fact that he's able to think, you know, yeah, I wanted to kill that guy for a wreck in my life, but then I would just prove to everybody that I'm the person they thought I was. And he could move on.
He wanted to move on. When Chris took that plea and got out, he had no reason to believe that he would one day be fully exonerated, right? I mean, people were looking and there's another man's DNA there, but, you know, he could go the rest of his life and never know who that was.
That's exactly right. He knew that the forces were still arrayed against him, and what are you going to do? So you take what you're offered, even if it's got an emotional ankle bracelet.
what's the police theory of the crime now that they know who it was and what happened? They think what, Mr. Dripps just saw her and decided to attack her? He knew that she lived there, saw her, moved her.
Do we know of any contact between killer and victim before the night that he killed her? Not as far as we know. And there really is no other story besides the one Dripps told the police.
They can't prove or disprove it. They have no particular reason to offer a different opinion.
I spent 90 minutes with Brian Dripps in the prison in Idaho where he's serving his time.

And I sat in a conference room with him after corresponding with him for quite a while.

And he told me that story that he told the police.

Showed some remorse, but just said, that's the way it is.

That's what happened.

And I'm sorry I did it.

And I looked over my shoulder for the first couple of years, thinking every time I saw a cop, they were coming for me. And after that, I kind of forgot about it.
Let me ask you, I think, the question that's probably on everybody's mind right now, which is, what's new on the death of Chris Tapp? I mean, they think it's a homicide. Are they anywhere on that? I made a call to the homicide detective in charge of the investigation before we aired the story just to make sure there was nothing new.
And he indicated that there may be an arrest soon, but nothing confirmed. The altercation happened in Resorts World in Las Vegas.
Cameras everywhere. You have to figure they have a pretty good idea who went in and out of that room.
Yeah, that's probably what they're talking about.

Standard procedure, of course, not to reveal what they intend to do until they actually do it.

You know, I mean, I guess the question would be, you know, and I know you don't know the answer.

Is this something to do with the windfall of money that he got or something unrelated that we don't even know about or some longstanding grudge?

And the answer is we don't know any of that. Every twist of this story has produced a whole sheaf of questions to answer for the next chapter.
Well, I know obviously there's more to be reported on that. And I know that viewers and listeners will eventually be brought up to date on that.
After this break, we are going to come back and answer some of your questions from social media. Explore the world's hidden wonders on the Atlas Obscura podcast, a village in India where everyone's name is a song, a boiling river in the Amazon, a spacecraft cemetery in the middle of the ocean.
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All right, let's get to some viewer and listener mail.

Here's the first one.

It's from Duke in Los Angeles,

who writes in to say,

pocket squares are usually inexpensive,

but one with Keith's face on it

would be prohibitively costly. You know, that's from my tailor.
That's not viewer mail. Never mind.
Sorry, I got that confused. Here's one from Mel Loves to Talk, who is a good friend of ours online and in person.
And Mel wants to know, did investigators get in trouble for harassment and for coercing a confession out of a suspect? Well, the simple answer is no, they did not. In fact, the lead investigator went on to become the mayor of Idaho Falls and, if anything, was celebrated for the way that he handled this case.
And he didn't talk with you guys because he was not well, I think.

Right.

This is not him dodging us.

This is him not being healthy.

Correct.

But Shane, you can tell me about your interactions with the other investigator.

Yeah, retired detective Ken Brown.

We reached out to him a couple times and just a few days before air, the attorney for the city of Idaho Falls in Chris's lawsuit reached out back to us on his behalf. We asked him three questions.
One, did he have any response to Chris's exoneration? Two, did he have anything to say about missing the guy across the street? And three, how did he respond to Destiny Osborne's claims that they coerced her? And the only thing that he responded to was Destiny Osborne. And what did he say? He said that she had told the same story in a diary entry a year after the murder and in an interview with police seven years after the murder.
And we included both of those in our program. So he's still defending something which has been disproved.
Brenda Celeste wants to know, where was Angie's father as this was happening? He died in 2004, so very early on. Carol was doing it all, yeah.
You talked about this online, I know, during the broadcast. The numbers on people who confess, even if they confess fraudulently or incorrectly or if it's coerced, juries still convict, don't they? They tend to, yeah.
The best kinds of evidence as far as juries are concerned, according to all the research, is that they love a confession better than anything else and they will almost always convict. But so will judges and so will appeals courts.
If somebody has confessed, that is the hardest evidence to undo. In fact, it's almost impossible.
I have your tweet here from during the broadcast, which is that, Shane, you said that studies of proven false confessors have shown that even in cases involving confessions which were later proven to be false, juries convict in 73 to 81% of the cases, which underlines something that we've talked about on Dateline a bunch of times, which is that once that judgment is entered, that you are guilty. Unwinding that is very, very, very difficult.
That got me wondering about, so if confessions are probably the most effective or the number one thing for a jury to consider eyewitness testimonies close behind. Right.
And we know how reliable that is. Right.
And how reliable that is, which is way less reliable than we think. Right.
Much less. I was watching a movie the other day and I'm thinking to myself, oh, coming up is that great line where he says this.
Right. And then the actor says the line and it's not what I remember.
It's not as good as I remember. I'm like, how could I do that? And that's the case with eyewitness testimony.
That's true. And memories, same thing.
People remember things which simply didn't happen. And they're convinced that they did happen.
Exactly. Natalie Bannon, a friend of ours in real life, as well as on social media, wants to know, is this the only murder slash rape that Mr.
Dripps committed? Do we know of anything else? So I looked into his background as much as we could. We tracked him across the country.
He lived both in Northern California and Southern California in the Marines. We talked to authorities in Placerville County, California.
They found nothing that fit that pattern. We talked to a cold case detective in San Diego, as well as, you know, Naval Investigative Service, and they didn't have anything either during the time periods he was there.
Here's something from Daisy Liu, 2320. Also, how come we never saw Chris with his mother and brother? Well, he doesn't have a brother.
Well, Daisy Lou thinks he does. Chris is an only child.
Yeah, and I decided to not bother Vera with it. I think Vera is very, very deep in grief.
Vera's a lovely, lovely woman who was so supportive of her son and always in his corner.

And she was just such a happy woman when he was released.

And what was the time from when he was set free to when he died?

March 2017, he was freed.

July 2019, he was exonerated.

And then November 23, he died.

So six years, six and a half years, about all.

Not enough time.

Thank you guys very much.

That is Talking Dateline for this week.

Keith, Shane, thank you.

Thanks to all of you for listening.

And remember, if you have any questions for us about our stories or about Dateline,

you can reach out to us on social at DatelineNBC. See you Fridays on Dateline on NBC.
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So why wait?

Listen to Where Everybody Knows Your Name wherever you get your podcasts.