The Perfect Life

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Speaker 6 Tonight on Dateline.

Speaker 1 I'm innocent. I've always been innocent.

Speaker 6 A dramatic new turn in a riveting case.

Speaker 9 The way I was portrayed, that's not how it went down at all.

Speaker 10 I want the truth to come out.

Speaker 11 You come home from school and your mom is missing.

Speaker 12 Yeah.

Speaker 12 You don't know what to do. You don't know how to behave.

Speaker 13 I was told that her body was found.

Speaker 7 Is it my wife?

Speaker 14 Law enforcement were just so focused on him.

Speaker 14 Well, he was having an affair, so he must have committed this crime.

Speaker 15 I am her closest friend. I betray her in the worst way, and she's gone.

Speaker 11 Did your dad say anything to you like, I didn't do this?

Speaker 12 Yes, he did, and I believe him.

Speaker 16 He's a master manipulator.

Speaker 11 How certain were you that Remy Ramsaran killed his wife?

Speaker 16 No doubt in my mind.

Speaker 14 We discovered that under Jennifer Ramsaran's fingernails was male DNA.

Speaker 10 The DNA underneath my wife's wife's fingernails. It's not mine.

Speaker 6 Who is it? A wife murdered, a husband accused, and an ending that you won't see coming. I'm Lester Holt, and this is Dateline.

Speaker 6 Here's Andrea Canning with The Perfect Life.

Speaker 11 Has anyone ever described you as quirky or odd or a goofball?

Speaker 18 Absolutely.

Speaker 11 At Dateline, we meet a lot of big talkers,

Speaker 11 but few as big as Remy Ramsaran.

Speaker 10 If there's one thing about me, I can talk to anyone.

Speaker 19 Any question, ask me. I'll be more than happy to provide.

Speaker 11 He had lots to say about his happy life in his tiny upstate New York town.

Speaker 20 I had the perfect life.

Speaker 22 I have everything anyone would want.

Speaker 11 And when tragedy struck and the details of his so-called perfect life came tumbling out, Remy kept talking.

Speaker 13 Here's the thing: I have truth on my side.

Speaker 8 I don't have any deep, dark secrets.

Speaker 11 Now, a decade after we first spoke to him, Remy has more to say. You don't have any regrets about

Speaker 10 it. Don't take my word for it.

Speaker 11 Hang on. So, this is new information.

Speaker 10 This is absolute new information.

Speaker 11 New discoveries, new evidence, and a brand new ending.

Speaker 24 Bombshell.

Speaker 2 Bombshell.

Speaker 11 To understand how we got here, we need to go back to a cold winter night.

Speaker 11 December 11th, 2012. A worried Remy Ramsaran called 911.

Speaker 19 Okay, tell me exactly what happened.

Speaker 25 My wife left this morning between 10 and 11. And she hasn't been back, and I'm really freaked out.

Speaker 11 It was evening, and his wife Jen should have been home from a shopping trip.

Speaker 7 And this is totally unlike her, and not our friends have heard from her. I called my in-laws.

Speaker 11 The morning had started much like any other for the family.

Speaker 12 I remember seeing my mom that morning. I gave her the hug in the morning, and then I went to go make my breakfast and lunch.

Speaker 11 Glenn, the middle child of three, was 10. Did she take you to school or did you take the bus to school?

Speaker 12 My dad drove us.

Speaker 11 Just like any other day.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 11 Remy got back from dropping the kids kids off around 8 a.m. His wife Jen was in the kitchen.

Speaker 13 When I came home, Jen was eating cabani yogurt and kashi cereal at the table and she was on her iPod Touch.

Speaker 28 And

Speaker 13 then I went to the living room and I sent some emails and certain things to that effect.

Speaker 11 Remy was a project manager for IBM who worked from home most days. Jen took care of the house and kids.

Speaker 13 That morning, she was supposed to go to Syracuse.

Speaker 11 The mall in Syracuse was a bit of a drive, but it had all the nice stores, and she wanted to get their daughter a new dress for Christmas.

Speaker 29 Gave me a kiss on the cheek, and then she left.

Speaker 11 Left in her red Chrysler minivan. The mall was 60 miles away through winding backcountry roads.
Not an easy drive, especially in winter.

Speaker 19 It gets dark kind of early, and Jen doesn't like driving in the dark and stuff, and she was supposed to be home like around 4.35 o'clock-ish, anyways.

Speaker 11 When do you start to get a little worried?

Speaker 13 Right around that time, once it started getting dark.

Speaker 11 Remy had been texting Jen all day with no response. He checked in with her best friend, Eileen Sales.

Speaker 15 Well, he actually called me that night she didn't come home and asked if I had heard from her and I said no.

Speaker 11 What are the scenarios playing out in your head?

Speaker 13 The car accident was the big one.

Speaker 28 I really thought

Speaker 13 some type of car accident.

Speaker 11 That's when Remy made that call to 911.

Speaker 25 Have you attempted to cell phone? Oh, yes. That's how I've been trying to call her.
I've called her numerous times and texted her and no response.

Speaker 13 I told him the reason why I'm worried is I haven't heard from her since about 11 when she left, which is highly unusual.

Speaker 26 Well, I think it would be normal for most people to start to be concerned after nine hours.

Speaker 11 Detective Richard Cobb worked for the Shenango County Sheriff's Office. This was just a trip to the mall.

Speaker 11 She should have been home by then.

Speaker 26 Yeah, she should have been home.

Speaker 11 Officers started looking up accident reports, checking hospitals.

Speaker 26 Had there been a crash or maybe her her vehicle broke down, you know, and some other police agency had stopped to assist her and, you know, she was on her way back.

Speaker 26 But that wasn't the case in this one.

Speaker 11 Are you able to sleep at all?

Speaker 13 Oh, no, I was up all night.

Speaker 11 The next morning, the kids woke up with questions. What are you told?

Speaker 12 You know, she went shopping or she's not back yet. My reaction wasn't too severe because she's my mom.
Nothing's going to happen to her.

Speaker 13 Mom will probably be home by the time you guys come home from school.

Speaker 7 She's probably still out shopping and stuff.

Speaker 11 Did you believe that?

Speaker 13 That's what's my hope.

Speaker 11 But did you believe it?

Speaker 13 I didn't know what to believe.

Speaker 15 I was concerned. I needed to know what happened.

Speaker 11 Remy also called his best friend, Jason Wicks.

Speaker 31 After he told me about Jen missing, I was talking with some of the guys at work. A couple people asked me if they'd tried to find my iPhone app.

Speaker 6 So I called him.

Speaker 32 Remy, did you try this?

Speaker 11 He hadn't. So after driving the kids to school, Remy headed straight to the police department.

Speaker 22 while talking with the police chief remy tried the find my iphone app and lo and behold it connected to her iphone you figured out where her iphone was yeah right there at the police station with him and it looked like the phone was moving and i was freaking out the spot was almost 20 miles outside of town and it did show a location of jennifer's phone on 23 at the intersection of Moon Hill Road and the town of Plymouth.

Speaker 11 Officers headed there, looked around, didn't find anything. So Rummy decided to go look for himself.
He got out of the car and opened the app.

Speaker 13 I'm hitting the play sound, play sound.

Speaker 19 And it's a high, shrieking, loud sound.

Speaker 28 And I walked the bank and I didn't hear anything yet.

Speaker 13 And then I crossed the street and I started hearing it.

Speaker 28 And I looked.

Speaker 13 Then I saw it. I immediately called 911.

Speaker 7 I found my wife's iPhone.

Speaker 11 It was the first big clue in the mystery of what happened to Jen Ramsaran. And it launched a saga that would consume this small town for longer than anyone imagined.

Speaker 32 You've got a love triangle. You've got DNA.
You've got some blood evidence.

Speaker 11 That's twisted.

Speaker 15 Very twisted.

Speaker 11 That's a mysterious element to this.

Speaker 14 It is a mysterious element.

Speaker 16 There's no words for it. I've never seen anything like it.

Speaker 11 Jen Ramsaran had apparently gone out shopping and didn't return.

Speaker 11 The only clue in her disappearance was her phone, ditched off the side of the road. Her husband, Remy, was the one who found it.

Speaker 7 I found my wife's iPhone. I'm on Loon Hill Road in South Plymouth.

Speaker 7 I haven't touched it. I can see it from here.

Speaker 7 Can you send someone out here?

Speaker 11 Where exactly was it found?

Speaker 26 It was kind of right over in that area.

Speaker 26 It's a little more weedy now than it was then, but it was amongst some weeds, some shorter weeds, and some rocks.

Speaker 11 You must have felt like we have a key piece of evidence pretty quickly in this disappearance.

Speaker 26 You know, obviously it was key evidence. It was the first real physical clue that we had in the investigation.

Speaker 11 Remy called Jen's best friend, Eileen, with the news.

Speaker 15 He said, I I found her phone, and I said, oh, my God.

Speaker 15 I couldn't believe that. My heart sunk.

Speaker 11 Did you think something sinister had happened?

Speaker 7 Absolutely.

Speaker 11 But to investigators, a ditched cell phone could mean anything.

Speaker 26 This was, for all intents and purposes, an adult woman who may have just left her life on a whim.

Speaker 11 Police treated it as a missing person's case, checked hospitals and searched roadside accident reports, but didn't immediately launch any large-scale physical searches.

Speaker 11 Jen's father went looking himself, driving around anywhere he could think of, up and down country roads looking for a sign of his daughter or her van.

Speaker 11 She'd been missing five days when he saw something.

Speaker 25 911, what's the address of your house?

Speaker 33 Schneigler.

Speaker 7 Yes, Tom Rams, Jennifer Rams Rams, father?

Speaker 33 Yes.

Speaker 33 I found the van.

Speaker 11 It was Jen's red van. It had been abandoned here in this apartment complex eight miles from her house.
That must have been just an awful, awful discovery for her father.

Speaker 26 I'm sure it was.

Speaker 11 Investigators arrived on the scene. The van was empty, but inside they found spots of blood.

Speaker 11 Now that the van has been found and it's clear that something bad has happened to Jen, are all your worst fears being realized?

Speaker 13 Absolutely.

Speaker 27 Absolutely.

Speaker 19 Yeah, devastated. Absolutely devastated.

Speaker 27 Shocked.

Speaker 15 I was scared to death.

Speaker 34 It was the big news. I mean, this is such a small town.

Speaker 11 Pat Newell is a local newspaper reporter and friend of the family. The story hit home for him and a lot of people around town.

Speaker 34 You know, a woman with three children has gone missing right around Christmas. So it was right at the heart of

Speaker 34 the most, probably the most joyous time of the year. And this is what the police are dealing with.

Speaker 11 Jen and Remy Ramsaran lived a quiet life here in the backwoods of upstate New York. Their town, New Berlin, is so small it barely registered a thousand people in the last census.

Speaker 12 It's the stereotypical small town living. We had a great house.
It was a lot of fun, family gatherings.

Speaker 11 This is a great place to raise a family.

Speaker 10 Absolutely.

Speaker 19 We found a beautiful home right next to Shenango Lake.

Speaker 11 Remy and Jen had been married 13 years. They were college sweethearts.
What was it that you fell for the most about her?

Speaker 17 Her personality

Speaker 7 was special.

Speaker 15 She was so friendly, and you felt instantly comfortable with her.

Speaker 11 Jen and Eileen met through their daughters in Girl Scouts, and the two families had become close.

Speaker 15 We would say good morning to each other on text. She'd either say it or I would say it first.

Speaker 11 It's so nice when you can find someone like that.

Speaker 15 It is. I mean, she was always there for me, always.

Speaker 15 No matter what I needed.

Speaker 11 To Eileen and everyone who knew the couple, Jen was Remy's opposite. She was sweet and quiet.
He was loud and boisterous.

Speaker 28 There's so many people that would walk up to my wife and go, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 27 How do you put up with him?

Speaker 11 Has anyone ever described you as quirky or odd or goofball?

Speaker 30 Absolutely, including Jen and probably anyone that's ever met me.

Speaker 11 Remy is a real force.

Speaker 15 Yes, we knew when he walked in the room. At some points, you're like, oh, here comes Remy, you know?

Speaker 15 Yep, he's loud.

Speaker 11 Their opposites attract relationships, somehow just worked.

Speaker 11 Jen's friend Teresa Liser says Jen seemed happy and busy being a stay-at-home mom to her three kids. That's pretty much the biggest thing that she talked about was her kids.

Speaker 11 Jen was a Sunday school teacher. Yes.

Speaker 35 Knitting instructor?

Speaker 11 Yes. She was also very good at cooking.
Very Martha Stewart. Yes.

Speaker 7 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 11 Remy was focused on climbing the corporate ladder, first at Charles Schwab and later at American Express and IBM. He was also into running marathons, lots of them.

Speaker 13 26 marathons, and I was sponsored.

Speaker 11 In one year? Yeah. 26 marathons.
Yes, ma'am. You would go with him as a family when he would run the marathons?

Speaker 12 Yeah, most of the time. I ran a 5K and then a 10K the day after that when I was I want to say around 11.
I think I was 11. It was the youngest person there doing the 10K.

Speaker 11 Remy also got his wife's friend Eileen into marathons.

Speaker 15 We started working out. And then he had mentioned running.

Speaker 11 But as Remy spent more time training for marathons, Jen immersed herself in a competition of her own.

Speaker 11 She started playing an online game called Kingdoms of Camelot, where players from all over the world take on medieval roles and team up to wage battles together.

Speaker 15 She would show me like pictures of her castle and her kingdom that she was building on the phone.

Speaker 11 Do you remember your mom playing the game Kingdoms of Camelot?

Speaker 12 I'd see her on her laptop a lot, but I don't know what she was playing.

Speaker 12 I know she spent a significant amount of time on her laptop.

Speaker 11 The game had Jen in touch with strangers from all over the internet, and now Jen was gone.

Speaker 15 The first thing I thought was these people on the game.

Speaker 11 which could be a recipe for disaster.

Speaker 7 Right.

Speaker 15 And that's what I thought in my heart.

Speaker 11 But it was more than just a theory. Eileen knew a secret, the kind only a best friend would know.

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Speaker 11 While Remy Ramsaran spent much of 2012 running marathons,

Speaker 11 His wife Jen was immersed in the fantasy world of Kingdoms of Camelot. In the online game, Jen, the mom of three, was transformed into a lady among lords.

Speaker 15 She just wanted to be on her game. And I would joke around about, Jen, are you, you know, come back to the real world, you know, pull yourself out of that game.

Speaker 15 She was definitely sucked into it.

Speaker 11 She was checking out a little bit.

Speaker 7 Very much so.

Speaker 29 It started turning into addiction.

Speaker 19 And she was on it

Speaker 19 quite a lot, close to eight hours a day, maybe more, even in the evenings.

Speaker 11 Did you feel like you were losing your mom a little bit because she was on the computer so much?

Speaker 12 She stopped coming to the living room to watch, you know, the family shows. She became more and more withdrawn.

Speaker 15 She wasn't cooking. You know, they were ordering out every night.
You know, I did their laundry one night because it was just so stacked up the kids didn't have anything.

Speaker 15 And I said, you want me to do your laundry? She's like, sure.

Speaker 11 While on a recent shopping trip together, Eileen says all Jen could talk about was her game and the the new friends she was making online. There was one player in particular, a British man named Rob.

Speaker 15 And she would joke around about, you know, things they would talk about, you know, because

Speaker 15 in England it's different than it is here, so different. And I think she liked that.

Speaker 11 Eileen says Jen confessed that the online friendship had turned flirtatious. She even knew what kind of cologne he wore.

Speaker 15 We swung in to the mall and she wanted to smell his cologne.

Speaker 15 And we did. did.
We smelled his cologne.

Speaker 11 Had her appearance started to change?

Speaker 15 A little bit. But it wasn't an everyday thing.
It was just randomly. One day I would stop by and she had makeup on.
She said she was taking pictures of herself.

Speaker 15 And she would dial herself up, take pictures. And I thought, you know, that's fine.

Speaker 15 But on the other hand, it was kind of strange. Rob knew where she lived and was thinking about relocating, coming up here.

Speaker 11 And he's in England.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 15 I said, what if he does come up here?

Speaker 15 And she kind of giggled.

Speaker 11 Now, with Jen missing, Eileen felt she had no choice but to tell the police. Did you think that perhaps this man, this quasi-stranger, had come all the way to New York and

Speaker 11 just wanted to meet her that badly?

Speaker 15 You know, I didn't know. I didn't know if he was really from England.
What if he was closer? You know, people lie online all all the time.

Speaker 11 Did you feel the need to get in touch with this Rob immediately?

Speaker 26 We worked to do that almost from the start. We sent him messages through the gaming app.
You know, this is the Chenango County Sheriff's Office. Jennifer's been reported missing.

Speaker 26 We're wondering if you'd had any contact with her.

Speaker 11 Turns out Rob was in the UK. Interpol arranged a meeting between him and the British police.
Rob admitted he was married and used the word intimate to describe his relationship with Jen.

Speaker 26 Well, Jennifer had sent some sort of lingerie lingerie, and he had sent her, I believe it was $150

Speaker 26 that she never picked up.

Speaker 11 Did he express what that money was for?

Speaker 26 I believe it was for her to buy herself a gift. You know, this is early December, it's close to Christmas time.

Speaker 11 Rob and Jen had talked about meeting in person, but he insisted he hadn't been anywhere near New York when she disappeared.

Speaker 11 In fact, he said he'd been worried too, wondering why Jen hadn't been online for days. As the detective worked to check out his story, Eileen broke the news to Remy about his wife's online romance.

Speaker 15 And when I told him, he was

Speaker 15 furious.

Speaker 15 You know, he's, what? You know, she was, like I said, you know, this man online knows where she lives.

Speaker 11 An emotional Remy spoke to Jen directly on the local news.

Speaker 2 I don't think you ever, ever knew

Speaker 45 how much

Speaker 45 how much we care for you and how much you're loved.

Speaker 11 Remy says that despite the blood evidence, he clung to hope that Jen was still alive. He posted frequent updates on Facebook.

Speaker 11 He was alone with three kids, and I thought he was grasping at anything that he could get to feel like maybe his wife was out there still. Are you asking your dad, where's mom? What's happening?

Speaker 12 He always told us, we'll find her, and

Speaker 12 We did,

Speaker 12 I mean, various things like, you know, awareness. I remember one time we were lighting a bunch of lanterns and it got on the news.

Speaker 1 There's no doubt in my mind, I've said it before, there's no doubt in my mind that we're not going to see her again. There's no doubt in my mind.

Speaker 11 Winter snow was blanketing the town. And underneath it all, another secret.
Some people are going to remember you as being the worst kind of friend to Jen.

Speaker 15 You know, you can't take back

Speaker 15 what you've done.

Speaker 11 Jen Ramsaran had been flirting with a guy she met playing an online game. She confessed to her friend that she'd even sent him lingerie in the mail.

Speaker 15 The lingerie. That really bothered me that she had sent that.
I thought that was serious.

Speaker 11 Remy felt betrayed, but he didn't get much sympathy from his best friend Jason. That's because Jason knew that Remy also had a secret.

Speaker 31 Why are you so mad at the possibility that she was having an affair?

Speaker 16 And I was like, Remy, I mean, you've been having an affair yourself.

Speaker 11 That's right. Mad as he was about Jen's online romance, Remy had been cheating on her and with the last person on earth she would ever expect.

Speaker 15 In my heart and in my stomach, I knew it was wrong.

Speaker 11 This is your wife's best friend,

Speaker 11 The Girl Scout troop leader.

Speaker 2 Oh, yes.

Speaker 45 Very bad, they got.

Speaker 11 The affair between Rummy and Eileen began nearly a year before Jen disappeared. They'd been spending lots of time together training for marathons.

Speaker 11 That's when Rummy had an epiphany while running in the Arizona heat.

Speaker 13 And it was one of the

Speaker 19 first marathons I wanted to try and run without drinking a drop of water.

Speaker 10 I eventually got down,

Speaker 19 challenged myself. There was like streaks of salt on my back, and I started cramping up and hurting, but I didn't give up.

Speaker 10 I'm still going.

Speaker 17 And a song came on by the Christian rock band Skillet, Tomorrow's One Day Too Late.

Speaker 2 Will tomorrow be too late?

Speaker 19 And as I'm running, my mind just drifted.

Speaker 17 And that song hit home. And I love that song.

Speaker 23 And

Speaker 13 the person that came to my mind was Eileen.

Speaker 11 It's this man in the middle of of a desert running without water who realizes

Speaker 11 that you're the real love of his life.

Speaker 7 I didn't know that.

Speaker 11 A few weeks later, Remy told Eileen he was falling for her.

Speaker 27 I asked her if I could kiss her, and I did.

Speaker 20 And we both felt extremely guilty.

Speaker 11 And did you kiss him back? I did.

Speaker 15 And then I left, just like that. Sat in my car for a minute, thinking, what did I just do?

Speaker 11 Some people would have been

Speaker 11 shocked shocked and said what are you doing this is jen's my best friend why why are you doing this

Speaker 15 right

Speaker 15 what was your gut telling you my gut was telling me no you can't do this it's wrong

Speaker 15 it's so wrong

Speaker 11 still not long after that first kiss they took the relationship to the next level Did you feel any guilt consummating this relationship in the house house that you share with your wife?

Speaker 19 I know I should say yes, but I didn't.

Speaker 17 Jen and I had already grown apart.

Speaker 11 Did you talk to Jen about getting a divorce?

Speaker 9 Yes.

Speaker 13 Oh, yes, a handful of different times.

Speaker 11 For Eileen, at least, it was more than just physical. Even though she was married with kids herself, she was falling in love with Remy.

Speaker 15 And to feel that someone cared like he did.

Speaker 15 Everyone wants to

Speaker 15 feel that importance.

Speaker 11 What was it about him that you were so attracted to?

Speaker 15 His personality was huge. I mean,

Speaker 15 always lifted you up. Always.
Made you feel important.

Speaker 15 I felt invincible.

Speaker 11 Eileen says Remy's confidence was intoxicating. So was his good job and generosity.
So also during this time, he's buying you clothes

Speaker 11 with some rules attached?

Speaker 15 I could not wear them around Pat.

Speaker 15 Your husband? Right. He was not allowed to see me, and they were a lot of running clothes, you know.

Speaker 15 I was not allowed to wear them in front of him.

Speaker 11 Did you abide by those rules? Yes, I did.

Speaker 7 Why? How did he have this power over you? I don't know.

Speaker 15 I really honestly,

Speaker 15 unfortunately, one of my bad characters is I'm a very weak, weak person.

Speaker 11 Eileen says they would get together whenever they could slip away from their jobs and kids. That's a lot of sneaking around.

Speaker 15 Yeah, I couldn't take it. I couldn't.

Speaker 15 It was too much. It got to be too much.

Speaker 11 Did he say to you, I'm going to divorce Jen?

Speaker 15 He said it, yeah.

Speaker 11 Did that make you happy?

Speaker 7 No.

Speaker 15 No, because I knew it would hurt her.

Speaker 11 During the affair, Eileen separated from her husband and moved out, though he was in the dark about why.

Speaker 11 Then, a few weeks before Jen went missing, Eileen broke it off with Remy and moved back home. But she and Remy weren't completely done.
In fact, they were together the day before Jen went missing.

Speaker 15 We did have sex. I did not

Speaker 15 want to further the relationship at that point.

Speaker 11 How did he handle that?

Speaker 15 You know, he

Speaker 15 gets upset. You know, he wants what he wants.

Speaker 11 An affair with the best friend? What would investigators think?

Speaker 7 That's kind of a bombshell.

Speaker 26 It's a big bombshell, yes.

Speaker 11 Eileen's affair with Remy had lasted for nearly a year, something she'd been hiding from her husband Pat and her best friend Jen.

Speaker 11 But after Jen went missing, Eileen knew she had to come clean to the police.

Speaker 15 I needed to help Jen. I needed them to find her, and I would do anything to help them at that moment.

Speaker 11 How did they react to you when you told them that you were having an affair with your best friend's husband and your best friend is missing?

Speaker 15 You know, they really weren't,

Speaker 15 they didn't really show me much. You know, they just took what I said, wrote it down,

Speaker 15 and that was it.

Speaker 11 You must have been so nervous though, because this is the first time you're openly talking about this affair to someone other than Remy.

Speaker 15 Yeah, and I was nervous that, you know, Pat's going to find out at this point, and here comes my world. And now, my family's going to know that I deceived them too.

Speaker 11 But she wasn't alone at the police station. Remy was there, too, right by her side.
Though he initially lied and told investigators his marriage was fine, he quickly fessed up.

Speaker 19 I don't have anything in my life to feel embarrassed about, except that.

Speaker 30 You know, yes.

Speaker 28 Eileen and I fell in love, but

Speaker 8 I don't have any deep, dark secrets.

Speaker 11 That one's pretty deep.

Speaker 18 It is what it is.

Speaker 10 But besides that, there is no.

Speaker 23 I don't drink. I don't.

Speaker 10 I'm not a wife beater. I'm not a kid beater.

Speaker 10 Nothing.

Speaker 18 People have affairs. It is what it is.

Speaker 11 But your wife's best friend, and she's gone missing. That's a bombshell.

Speaker 10 I don't see how it's a bombshell because I volunteered every and all information, whatever was asked.

Speaker 26 The word does get around. I don't think his affair was as secret as he he thought it was.

Speaker 11 Is this the classic have to look at the spouse?

Speaker 26 I wouldn't say in this case, this was the classic look at the spouse.

Speaker 26 Certainly,

Speaker 26 he was a suspect at that point.

Speaker 26 You know, so were others.

Speaker 26 It was as much to rule him out as it was to rule him in at that point. We needed to clarify a couple of things.

Speaker 26 You know, one about his whereabouts and what he was doing on the morning of December 11th.

Speaker 11 Remy went over the details of that morning with investigators.

Speaker 19 Dropped the kids off, came back home between 8.05, 8.15, and

Speaker 13 I had already logged on to work. There was still some stuff with the projects I was working with.

Speaker 19 Other colleagues on that still needed to be done.

Speaker 22 So little odds and ends.

Speaker 13 So I had both laptops on.

Speaker 11 Remy said Jen left to go shopping around 10.30, and after that, he went for a run, ending up at the local YMCA. He told police his exact route through town.

Speaker 11 As Detective Cobb set out to corroborate Remy's alibi, he was still looking into Jennifer's friend Rob from the computer game, the Britch she'd been flirting with.

Speaker 26 Anybody was a suspect in the beginning of the investigation.

Speaker 26 Rob and anybody else that she may have had contact with.

Speaker 11 The detective asked U.S. Immigration to run a check on Rob's passport.
The agency reported back Rob had not entered the United States in 2012.

Speaker 11 So Rob from the fantasy game was cleared as a potential suspect. Still, Remy insisted Jen had run off with someone.

Speaker 13 I've told that to the police many times. Many times.

Speaker 11 And do you think it was a direct link to these online games?

Speaker 29 Absolutely.

Speaker 11 Do you think she was having an affair?

Speaker 29 I can almost guarantee it.

Speaker 13 In fact, that's what I believed happened on December 11th.

Speaker 29 She went to go meet someone.

Speaker 11 Even if she had not met up with Rob from the UK, Eileen still wondered who else Jen had been talking to. All you knew was that Rob was the only one she told you about.
Right.

Speaker 11 She's not telling you about any of the other guys

Speaker 15 in the lingerie. I thought, well, did she do that to someone else?

Speaker 15 You know?

Speaker 11 While Eileen was wondering about that, investigators were wondering about her.

Speaker 11 Why was Eileen a possible suspect?

Speaker 26 Just because of her relationship, her involvement with Jennifer and Mr. Ramsaran.
Generally, you would think a husband or a male might commit murder, but women can also.

Speaker 11 Police asked Eileen to take a polygraph test. The results were inconclusive.

Speaker 15 And they spun it around on me. You know, say I was lying.
And I wasn't. And I was truthful from the beginning.
And all I wanted to do was help.

Speaker 11 If you're being open about the affair, what did they think you were lying about?

Speaker 15 You know, they would ask questions. No, where were you on such and such a day? I was working.
You know, yeah, I met up with him.

Speaker 11 Police investigated the case as a potential homicide, even though Jen was still officially a missing person. Now you've got the van, you've got the phone, but you still have no body.

Speaker 26 Right.

Speaker 47 Is that frustrating?

Speaker 26 It was very frustrating to not be able to find her.

Speaker 11 That was about to change, along with another discovery.

Speaker 11 What was and wasn't on these security cameras.

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Speaker 49 Hi there, it's Andy Richter, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, The Three Questions with Andy Richter.

Speaker 5 Each week, I invite friends, comedians, actors, and musicians to discuss these three questions.

Speaker 4 Where do you come from? Where are you going? And what have you learned?

Speaker 50 New episodes are out every Tuesday with guests like Julie Bow and Ted Danson, Tig Nataro, Will Arnett, Phoebe Bridgers, and more.

Speaker 8 You can also tune in for my weekly Andy Richter call-in show episodes, where me and a special guest invite callers to weigh in on topics like dating disasters, bad teachers, and lots more.

Speaker 49 Listen to the three questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 11 The disappearance of Jen Ramsaran had officially been a missing person case for two and a half months. February 26th, 2013, that all changed.

Speaker 19 11 o'clock at night.

Speaker 28 I get a phone call and the police tell me they're downstairs.

Speaker 13 I went downstairs, I unlocked the door, and that's when I was told that a body was found.

Speaker 7 Is it my wife?

Speaker 26 Are you sure?

Speaker 9 That was heart-wrenching.

Speaker 7 Heart-wrenching.

Speaker 11 How did you tell the children?

Speaker 13 Well, I called all three kids into the master bedroom, and I told the kids

Speaker 26 mommy's in heaven, but she's always going to be with us.

Speaker 45 That's probably the most difficult thing I've ever had to do.

Speaker 12 And we all cried for a while.

Speaker 15 Wow.

Speaker 11 It was so devastating.

Speaker 12 You grow up fast,

Speaker 12 but also somewhat emotionally stunted, I guess. You don't know what to do.
You don't know how to behave.

Speaker 11 Jen's body had been discovered on an embankment about 20 miles from her house.

Speaker 26 The snow had started to melt and settle enough that, you know, she part of her became exposed.

Speaker 11 She had no clothes on?

Speaker 26 Right, she was found naked. I sent people out here and the scene was secured until we were able to get the frenzy people here to process it.

Speaker 15 It was awful.

Speaker 15 The grief.

Speaker 15 And I knew at this point there's no telling her I'm sorry.

Speaker 19 What really frustrates me.

Speaker 19 Jen's body was found just a little over three miles away from where that phone was.

Speaker 11 You feel the police should have...

Speaker 9 looked harder?

Speaker 13 Absolutely, even helicopter something.

Speaker 11 On the day Jen's body was found, Remy called the local news media back to his house.

Speaker 45 Gotta be strong for the kids. Make sure they're okay.
Just like Cabin and we'll figure it out.

Speaker 11 Despite Remy's tears, one by one, folks around town began to turn against not just him, but Eileen too. They soon realized they hadn't kept their secret very well.
Are you wearing a scarlet letter?

Speaker 7 Absolutely.

Speaker 15 They were saying I was involved somehow. You know, and that crushed me.
You know, and I couldn't stand up for myself. You know, there's there's nothing I can say to make anyone believe me.

Speaker 15 And why would they?

Speaker 7 I felt awful.

Speaker 7 Um,

Speaker 15 so it pushed me towards him.

Speaker 11 Did you start to talk about being together permanently?

Speaker 15 I would go over, make sure everyone was okay if they needed anything, you know.

Speaker 15 Um, didn't plan on moving in.

Speaker 11 Did he want you to? He did.

Speaker 2 Why wouldn't you?

Speaker 15 No.

Speaker 15 It's not necessary. You know, the kids are going through so much.

Speaker 15 You need to focus on the children.

Speaker 11 Back then, Glenn didn't think there was anything strange about his mom's best friend being around their house.

Speaker 2 I saw her frequently.

Speaker 12 Like some days after school, she would just be there with her kids.

Speaker 12 I was more than happy to play with her daughters.

Speaker 11 Could you tell if anything was going on with your dad and Eileen at that time?

Speaker 12 I kind of assumed, but there was no inherent like proof that I had as that I had witnessed.

Speaker 11 How did that make you feel, assuming that, that they were together?

Speaker 12 I hadn't harbored any hate for it. It wasn't anything like it was, it didn't make me upset, but I didn't feel good.
Like, my mom will always be my mom,

Speaker 12 and I love her.

Speaker 11 Glenn says his dad tried to protect him and his sisters from all the attention the investigation created.

Speaker 12 I knew that he was experiencing some major sadness.

Speaker 11 He was trying to keep things as normal as possible, would you say?

Speaker 12 Yeah, he was trying to make sure we were all happy and as well off as we could be.

Speaker 11 At home, he may have been shielding his kids, but online, Remy was outspoken.

Speaker 11 He started saying things about Jen, like, you know, well, she wasn't really a mother for the past six months. She was, she had disconnected herself from the family.
He seems like a total over-sharer.

Speaker 11 Yes, yes, over-shared everything.

Speaker 26 He was using social media and news media to kind of get his message out.

Speaker 11 What message was he trying to get out in the media?

Speaker 26 That Jennifer had changed and that she wasn't the mother or wife or housekeeper or cook that she used to be.

Speaker 11 Trying to deflect off of himself?

Speaker 26 Is that a good idea? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah,

Speaker 26 and put this on Jennifer.

Speaker 11 For investigators, the key to ruling Remy out or in meant corroborating his timeline from that day. He told the detectives he saw Jen leave to go shopping around 10.30 a.m.

Speaker 26 We start looking through her cell phone information. We found out that her cell phone last connected to the home Wi-Fi network at 10.57 a.m.
on December 11th.

Speaker 11 This is a red flag for you that her phone is clearly at home when she's not supposed to be. Right.

Speaker 26 It's hard for him to explain.

Speaker 11 What else was starting to bother you?

Speaker 26 Well, we were starting to collect different surveillance videos from various convenience stores, banks, anywhere along the route that Mr. Ramsteram claimed he ran from the residence to the YMCA.

Speaker 11 Turns out, Remy wasn't on any of them, but he was on tape here, stretching before entering the Y at 12.42 p.m.

Speaker 26 So

Speaker 26 his alibi of running

Speaker 26 this certain route appears to be false. So we have all these things that are now taking the focus off could be anybody and putting it really on Mr.
Ramserin.

Speaker 11 Investigators now believed Remy lied about what he was doing the morning Jen disappeared. As for Eileen, the detective was able to verify her alibi for the time Jen disappeared.

Speaker 11 She was at work that morning, but not that afternoon. Both she and Remy told investigators this.
After his run, Eileen picked Remy up from the Y and dropped him off at home.

Speaker 26 We still had the question, though, that Eileen picked Mr. Ramsarin up from the YMCA shortly after one o'clock that afternoon.

Speaker 11 He wondered if she wasn't involved in the actual murder. Maybe she was somehow involved in the cover-up.
Did you still think that maybe she knew all along what had happened?

Speaker 26 That was still a possibility that she had some kind of guilty knowledge.

Speaker 15 They thought I wasn't giving them everything, in which I was. You know, if I had more, I would have given it.
I would have given anything to help.

Speaker 11 Eileen says it was clear investigators were trying to build a murder case against Remy.

Speaker 15 And I just said, no, you know,

Speaker 15 I'm not believing that.

Speaker 11 Remy could be controlling.

Speaker 15 Yeah.

Speaker 11 But just, in your eyes, not controlling enough where he would take his own wife's life.

Speaker 15 No,

Speaker 15 that never even crossed my mind.

Speaker 11 But it certainly crossed investigators' minds, especially when they found a bloodstain on Remy's sweatshirt, the one he was wearing the day Jen disappeared.

Speaker 11 Then, three months after Jen's body was found, more forensics came in with the autopsy report. What was was the medical examiner able to tell you?

Speaker 26 Well, he was able to rule out any natural cause for her death, any toxicological cause for her death. He ruled out suicide, and he didn't find any accidental cause.

Speaker 26 So, I mean, essentially, you're left with homicide.

Speaker 11 What would that leave? Strangulation, if there's no visible marks on the body?

Speaker 26 Strangulation or suffocation would be possibilities, yes.

Speaker 46 I get a phone call.

Speaker 28 Can you come on down?

Speaker 19 We have

Speaker 13 those medical results.

Speaker 46 We'll finally get to talk to him and tell you exactly what happened.

Speaker 26 Well, we wanted one more shot at interviewing Mr. Ramsaran.

Speaker 11 This time, investigators didn't hold back.

Speaker 53 Don't you have a child about what happened to Sony? I told you, I always have.

Speaker 11 May 17th, 2013, six months after Jen Ramsaran had gone missing, her husband Remy was back talking with detectives. And it wasn't friendly.

Speaker 53 What's the truth? What do you have in there? I have the truth that you killed Jen.

Speaker 53 You had something that I never you did. Your alibi is bland clearly.

Speaker 53 I don't know why you think you're on camera running past these places. You're not.

Speaker 53 I don't know why you cannot get that in your head, Remy. That the camera doesn't lie, the person does, and you're the one lying about it.
I like to leave. No, you're not leaving.

Speaker 53 I've already told you that. Sit down.
You're not leaving. You're under arrest.

Speaker 11 Booked that same day? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 7 Not just booked.

Speaker 13 Perp walk from a block away straight through in chains and manacles and leg irons, the whole ball of wax.

Speaker 12 I get pulled into the elementary office and my grandparents are there to pick us up.

Speaker 11 And I mean, how do they even...

Speaker 11 do they tell you exactly what's happened?

Speaker 12 I don't even remember how they explained it to me. I just know they probably did.
There's just, you know, skips in time that I don't have any particular memory of.

Speaker 11 Eileen saw it on the news. You want to believe that Remy isn't capable of this.
Absolutely. A man you

Speaker 11 loved or loved.

Speaker 15 Absolutely.

Speaker 11 By the time they arrested Remy, investigators were convinced Eileen had been telling the truth.

Speaker 26 There was no evidence that she had any involvement in Jennifer's homicide.

Speaker 11 But from behind bars on a recorded jail line, Remy was calling her a lot.

Speaker 7 Oh, my girl.

Speaker 25 That's what, you know, I close my eyes when I imagine what you're wearing and stuff, you know?

Speaker 25 Mm-hmm. I miss you.
Terribly.

Speaker 25 I miss you.

Speaker 11 What does he want to talk about?

Speaker 15 He wanted to know what I was doing, trying to talk me to move into the house, still at this point. Do me one favor, right?

Speaker 31 When you get back from classroom, are you really, honestly going to move in finally?

Speaker 7 Yeah, probably.

Speaker 15 And I would almost agree. Yes, yes.
You know? Just so the phone calls would stop a little bit. And, you know, it's strange.
I felt guilty that he was in jail.

Speaker 15 Because part of me thought, there's no way. There's no way he hurt her.

Speaker 11 When did you start to have doubts that what you had believed all along maybe wasn't really what happened, that maybe Remy was somehow involved?

Speaker 15 His dad called me and said they found blood on his sweatshirt. And I thought, okay, but I'm thinking back, I'm thinking to their house and how messy the house was.
And, you know, I'm thinking,

Speaker 15 maybe it's old blood. Just little things were starting to play in my head.
And it scared me.

Speaker 11 Were you starting to live in Rewind?

Speaker 11 Going back over every moment, every word.

Speaker 11 Eileen slowly cut off all contact with Remy as his case went to trial.

Speaker 54 The case will be about the murder of Jennifer Ramsery.

Speaker 11 Remy's trial began in September 2014. Joseph McBride was the Shenango County District Attorney.
Do you think the motive was crystal clear?

Speaker 55 I think that the defendant was obsessed with his girlfriend, Eileen Sales. He was constantly asking Miss Sales to leave her husband so that they could be together.

Speaker 54 So when December 11th rolled around, it was time for him to get rid of his wife.

Speaker 11 The DA played some of those many jail calls between Remy and Eileen.

Speaker 11 You know, I look at my ring finger every fing day, and I just imagine your name right on there. You're a gift from God.
You were meant for me. And I know it was meant for you, right? Yeah.

Speaker 11 He called you around 2,000 times.

Speaker 15 Yeah, I knew. No idea it was that much.

Speaker 11 Remy's friend Jason testified for the prosecution. He told the jury Remy planned to divorce Jen and keep custody of the kids.

Speaker 31 I mentioned him that Jen would end up getting the kids, and he was very confident that he would be the one that had the kids.

Speaker 31 I kept telling him, I was like, I don't think that's exactly how it's going to play out.

Speaker 54 Jennifer was going to get custody. And why is that important? That gives him another reason, another motive to kill his wife.

Speaker 11 Eileen was the centerpiece of the prosecutor's case. He called her to the stand where she faced Remy in court.
How difficult was it for you to testify?

Speaker 15 It was very hard. You know, who wants to talk about their sex life in front of so many people? And for it to be written in the papers for your kids to read.

Speaker 11 She testified about the day Jen disappeared, how Remy called her and asked for a ride home from the gym, then said goodbye outside of his house.

Speaker 15 He got out. He said, I know you're busy, and

Speaker 15 never invited me in.

Speaker 15 Nothing.

Speaker 11 Eileen told the jury she was trying to break up with Rummy, but the two had been intimate the day before. And now it seemed odd that he didn't try again that afternoon.

Speaker 15 And that's one of the things that, looking back, why didn't he invite me in?

Speaker 55 The defendant was always interested in sexual relations when he was alone with his girlfriend.

Speaker 55 That afternoon, the defendant didn't ask her to come into the house to be alone so they could be together.

Speaker 54 Because ladies and gentlemen, he wasn't interested in relations that day because he had other things on his mind.

Speaker 54 He had just killed his wife and he had to think about what he had to do next to try and not get caught.

Speaker 11 The prosecutor told the jury Rummy had been lying to the police all along. Rumi said he was working on his computer that morning, but a forensic expert testified that couldn't be true.

Speaker 55 In examining the computers, the expert said that there was no work done during those hours.

Speaker 54 Once again,

Speaker 54 the defendant's story doesn't match the evidence.

Speaker 55 In our theory of the case, the defendant had killed his wife, probably in the bedroom, and he was using that time to plan his cover-up and to make sure that he got rid of the evidence against him.

Speaker 54 And that at 11.30 or 11.15 approximately, the defendant left the scene with the body of his wife in the van.

Speaker 55 And then he drove the van out to where he dumped the body. Then he dumped the phone at

Speaker 7 Moonhill Road.

Speaker 11 Police testified that when they examined the phone, it was in perfect condition.

Speaker 26 There wasn't any damage. So to us, that said that somebody had actually come down here and placed the phone.

Speaker 11 McBride said that after planting the phone and dumping the van at the apartment complex, Remy the Runner jogged a short mile to the YMCA.

Speaker 55 Where he was shown on the videotape for the first time, walking into the Y, stretching his arms, acting as if nothing was wrong.

Speaker 11 And the DA reminded the jurors that it was Remy who found the phone the next day.

Speaker 7 I found my wife's iPhone.

Speaker 54 I found it. Come on down.
I'm going to wait for you.

Speaker 54 Found it because he put it there.

Speaker 11 McBride called a former person of interest to testify, Rob from England.

Speaker 11 Over Skype, he told the jury he became alarmed that morning when, like a ghost, Jen disappeared in the middle of their Kingdoms of Camelot game.

Speaker 55 She left the game. and had never been heard from since.
15 minutes later, the gentleman from London sent her a text message, where did you go? That message was never replied to.

Speaker 54 Why is that important? Because she never, ever left the game before. She never ever left without an explanation.

Speaker 11 The DA believed that was a key moment that tied his theory together. Remy caught her playing the game in bed and snapped, killing her right there in the bedroom.

Speaker 11 Investigators even found a spot of blood on the mattress. And there was that bloodstain on the sweatshirt Remy wore that day.

Speaker 55 And the DNA on that blood spot was also partially Remy's and it was partially Jennifer's. And that was powerful.

Speaker 11 But Remy was about to make his case right to the jury. What would they make of his story?

Speaker 20 I had the perfect life.

Speaker 21 I had a wife, had a girlfriend, had kids, I had everything anyone would want.

Speaker 49 Hi there, it's Andy Richter, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, The Three Questions with Andy Richter.

Speaker 5 Each week, I invite friends, comedians, actors, and musicians to discuss these three questions.

Speaker 4 Where do you come from? Where are you going? And what have you learned?

Speaker 50 New episodes are out every Tuesday with guests like Julie Bow and Ted Danson, Tig Natara, Will Arnett, Phoebe Bridgers, and more.

Speaker 8 You can also tune in for my weekly Andy Richter call-in show episodes, where me and a special guest invite callers to weigh in on topics like dating disasters, bad teachers, and lots more.

Speaker 49 Listen to the three questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 11 Is there no doubt in your mind that you will walk out of here a free man?

Speaker 10 I'm scared to my death that they're going to send me to jail or prison.

Speaker 23 But here's the thing.

Speaker 19 I have truth on my side.

Speaker 22 I did nothing wrong. I did nothing.

Speaker 28 I would never harm my wife.

Speaker 11 As Remy Ramsaran faced life in prison for the murder of his wife, Jen, his parents hired attorney Gilberto Garcia to defend him.

Speaker 26 I liked him very much. He was extremely respectful, was very open with me and was very happy that I was there.

Speaker 13 When he came to visit me on the 26th of December of 2013,

Speaker 13 was finally the light at the end of a tunnel.

Speaker 11 In his opening statement, Garcia told the jury the police botched the case from the start.

Speaker 26 The police did a very shoddy job here.

Speaker 26 And why? Because they concentrated on Mr. Rantaran from day one

Speaker 26 as the suspect. Yes, Mrs.
Rantaran died. We don't know how she died.
We don't know when she died.

Speaker 26 But he did not do it.

Speaker 11 Remy's lawyer challenged the state's timeline of what happened that morning, highlighting when Remy left the house to go on his run.

Speaker 26 Mr. McBride said in his opening that he left at 11.30.

Speaker 26 If he left at 11.30, I have the easiest case in the world because it is impossible, time-wise, to have done that trip in an hour and 12 minutes.

Speaker 26 Drop a body, get out and place a phone, come back, and then walk to the YMCA. Just can't do it.

Speaker 11 As for the security cameras that had not captured Remy that day, Garcia said the tapes were worthless. One video was missing a time stamp.
Another had a partially obstructed view.

Speaker 26 And I argued to the jury, you can't see this person walking because there's still another 75 feet further that the camera doesn't see.

Speaker 11 But the defense was centered on Remy himself. Remy spent two full days on the stand.
Video cameras were not allowed to record witness testimony, including his.

Speaker 11 Do you have a strategy?

Speaker 20 What strategy? Tell the truth.

Speaker 10 There is no strategy.

Speaker 11 Remy told the jury his wife had changed in the months before she disappeared and that the two had discussed divorcing. But he was adamant that he had not killed her.

Speaker 11 Eileen felt uncomfortable sitting in the gallery as Remy testified, so she listened from just outside of the courtroom.

Speaker 15 I knew he was lying. You know, I could tell some of the things he was saying.

Speaker 15 I needed to hear. I needed to hear how he was talking, how it was sounding coming out of his mouth.

Speaker 11 The DA says Remy was a difficult witness to cross-examine. The questioning turned to yelling at some points.
You were getting frustrated.

Speaker 55 I was frustrated. I would ask him what day it was and he would tell me how much he loved his wife.

Speaker 55 He was failing to follow the rules and I was doing everything in my control to try and make him to comply and do what he was supposed to do. And when I was doing that, I did raise my voice.

Speaker 11 Garcia says letting Remy be Remy was part of the plan.

Speaker 26 I let the prosecution yell at him because I wanted the jury to see his human reactions so that they could judge him on that aspect and say, perhaps he said this wrong, but he's honest reporter pat newell was in the courtroom i just don't think he could help himself he just that's just how he is

Speaker 34 honestly i i'm really surprised he testified i can't understand why he did it only hurt himself

Speaker 11 rumi was the defense's only witness in his closing arguments garcia addressed rumi's tendency to talk too much mr rontrom testified oh my goodness if i would have had a pan i would have hit him in the head with it i was so frustrated.

Speaker 26 Because, you know, he's not the flow

Speaker 26 witness that every lawyer dreams of.

Speaker 26 He was eager to tell

Speaker 26 more than he had to by the questions.

Speaker 26 I understood him.

Speaker 26 You can judge him.

Speaker 11 And he also acknowledged that he himself had wondered about Remy's guilt or innocence.

Speaker 26 Is it possible that he could have done it?

Speaker 26 I've asked myself that question a million times. Is it possible Remy

Speaker 26 could have done it? That's not enough. Suspicion is not enough.
What I'm trying to say to the jury at that point is I've judged them. I've asked myself a million times, could he have done this?

Speaker 26 And the reason why I asked myself is because I could not come to a conclusion.

Speaker 11 How do you want people to see you? Who are you?

Speaker 7 I am who I am.

Speaker 17 I'm never concerned.

Speaker 46 I always used to tell the kids,

Speaker 46 I always tell the kids, specifically the kids, don't worry about what people think you are or who you think they are.

Speaker 46 The only people that you should be concerned about are the people that love you, the family, your true closest friends, everyone else.

Speaker 20 Forget about it.

Speaker 10 Anyone that knows me, I'm a great father.

Speaker 19 I was also a really good husband.

Speaker 13 Yes, I cheated on my wife.

Speaker 9 However, I was a great father.

Speaker 11 It is a circumstantial case.

Speaker 17 Totally circumstantial.

Speaker 11 Do you worry about motive and how the jury will feel about motive,

Speaker 8 the affair?

Speaker 46 People have affairs all the time and they don't wind up killing their wives.

Speaker 10 It is what it is.

Speaker 18 I don't know what it is.

Speaker 10 I didn't do anything. Here's the thing.

Speaker 23 If I had done anything to my wife, would I have gone out and try and find her phone?

Speaker 46 Would I try and help and answer every question to the police?

Speaker 18 I should have lawyered up right off the bat.

Speaker 10 You have have to remember, my life was absolutely fantastic.

Speaker 7 Absolutely fantastic

Speaker 7 with a secret.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 11 That isn't always fantastic. No, no.

Speaker 20 Here's the thing though.

Speaker 22 Might be a secret, but in regards to Jen and I splitting apart and whatever happened, it was always there.

Speaker 10 I mean, it's not like a bad thing.

Speaker 11 You had a plan.

Speaker 7 Absolutely.

Speaker 11 Did you have a plan to kill your wife?

Speaker 21 Of course not.

Speaker 11 Is this all about Remy? Remy wanted to have the life he wanted.

Speaker 9 Whoa, that's where you're absolutely wrong.

Speaker 20 I had the perfect life.

Speaker 21 I had a wife, had a girlfriend, had kids, have everything anyone would want.

Speaker 19 The worst thing to have ever happened to me is Jen go missing.

Speaker 18 Absolutely worst thing.

Speaker 11 It was one of the oddest defenses we've heard from a murder suspect. His affair made him too happy to kill.
And yet his lawyers seemed to agree.

Speaker 26 What could trigger a man to kill his wife the morning after he's back with his girlfriend? Apparently they had sexual relations, so that should have been hormonally

Speaker 26 good for him. You heard a lot of stuff about

Speaker 26 sexual activity.

Speaker 26 Does that make a man a killer? And is that evidence of intent to kill your wife on a morning after

Speaker 26 you have been with your girlfriend? you were happy as a pig in mud.

Speaker 11 Remy's fate was now in the jurors' hands. How would they judge the man who says he doesn't care what anyone thinks?

Speaker 11 After three weeks of trial, the jurors got the case against Remy Ramsaran. Did you think he was going to get off?

Speaker 15 I was worried.

Speaker 11 Why were you worried?

Speaker 15 Because at that point, I

Speaker 15 believed he hurt her.

Speaker 11 What do you think happened that day when you run it through your mind?

Speaker 15 He knew I was back home and he was angry.

Speaker 15 And I think Jen had decided that

Speaker 15 I'm moving on too. And I think he just couldn't handle it.

Speaker 15 I just think he just snapped.

Speaker 11 After just three hours, a verdict.

Speaker 56 With respect to count one of the indictment charging the crime of murder in the second degree, how do you find the defendant? Guilty or not guilty?

Speaker 40 Defendant guilty.

Speaker 15 I had so many emotions, I can't even tell you it was

Speaker 15 emotion overload.

Speaker 11 Jen's friend Teresa was relieved, but heartbroken. She took her away from everyone.

Speaker 11 She was just the nicest, caring person, I think,

Speaker 11 that I ever met. She was just, she was nice to everyone.

Speaker 11 At the time, Glenn was almost 12 years old. He and his sisters didn't even get the news from a family member.

Speaker 12 My siblings and I were seeing a therapist, and she told us, and we just went back to the same old, same old

Speaker 12 just just living.

Speaker 11 So you learned about your dad's guilty verdict from the therapist?

Speaker 12 Yeah.

Speaker 11 The judge sentenced Remy to 25 years to life.

Speaker 12 We just knew we wouldn't see my dad for a long time.

Speaker 11 Did you feel like in a way both of your parents had died?

Speaker 12 Yeah, it was.

Speaker 12 You lose any sense of what a normal house feels like.

Speaker 11 Glenn and his sister stayed in New Berlin, living with Jen's parents.

Speaker 12 My grandparents are on the older side. They didn't know what to buy me for Christmas.
They didn't know what to feed me.

Speaker 12 They tried, but you know, it's rough, and

Speaker 12 especially being of the older generation, you know, they're so out of touch with the problems that I'm going to face.

Speaker 11 Did your grandparents ever say anything negative about your dad or say, you know, your dad did this and we don't want you to talk to him, or did they try to stay out of it?

Speaker 12 My grandpa never. He just stayed out of it entirely.
My grandma had

Speaker 12 been

Speaker 12 very verbal on Facebook prior to it, cursing out my dad.

Speaker 11 Are you allowed to go see him in prison?

Speaker 12 I'm not, no.

Speaker 11 You're not? So your grandparents are keeping you from him?

Speaker 12 Yeah, and there wasn't really talk of going to see him.

Speaker 11 Did you think maybe my dad did this?

Speaker 12 I didn't even entertain ideas. You know, my siblings never talked about it.
We We didn't watch Dayline or know about anything in the case. We simply just lived in the world that it happened and

Speaker 12 didn't bother thinking about it.

Speaker 11 But Glenn says that as they got older, they did talk about it more. And once he turned 18, he decided to see his dad in prison.
Did your dad say anything to you like, I didn't do this?

Speaker 11 You know, I'm wrongfully accused.

Speaker 12 Well, yes, yes, he did. And I mean, I believe him.

Speaker 11 Glenn says his dad told him his defense attorney, Gilberto Garcia, did a terrible job.

Speaker 12 He didn't call a witness to the stand. My dad went on stand because he realized that his lawyer had no idea what to do and had no witnesses to call to the stand.
So he had no representation.

Speaker 11 Glenn went on to college studying to become an engineer. While he continued to believe his dad was innocent, Eileen remained convinced of his guilt.
She was struggling to put her life back together.

Speaker 15 My girls need their mom back.

Speaker 15 I know that Jenna Remy's kids, that can't happen.

Speaker 15 And I sometimes think to myself, why should I be happy? Why should I be happy when I can move forward? I can move on, but

Speaker 15 her kids don't have a mom.

Speaker 11 Do you wish you had never met him?

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 15 I do. I feel like, honestly,

Speaker 15 if I hadn't walked into their lives, even for Girl Scouts, they would still be together.

Speaker 14 The guilt, the regret,

Speaker 7 the heartache.

Speaker 15 It's overwhelming. And it's hard to not think of every second of every day.

Speaker 11 What's your biggest regret in all of this?

Speaker 15 My affair.

Speaker 15 What I did to Jen.

Speaker 7 Absolutely.

Speaker 15 And her family.

Speaker 15 I hurt her family. You know, and you think to yourself, it's over.

Speaker 15 But is it?

Speaker 15 It's never going to be over.

Speaker 11 It certainly wasn't over for Remy. Outside the prison walls, his dad was using his life savings to help his son.
He hired new defense attorneys who began working on an appeal.

Speaker 32 As we dug into this, this first trial was,

Speaker 2 in my opinion, a complete joke.

Speaker 10 Follow the evidence.

Speaker 9 You will see it for yourself.

Speaker 11 It's insane what's happened.

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Speaker 11 When Remy Ramsaran first sat down with us just before his conviction, he seemed confident.

Speaker 19 I have truth on my side.

Speaker 11 I always have.

Speaker 22 I did nothing wrong. I did nothing.

Speaker 11 And he gushed about his attorney, Gilberto Garcia.

Speaker 10 My attorney has been ready forever. And we've been ready.
Been ready.

Speaker 11 Garcia also seemed confident despite the challenges they faced.

Speaker 26 All these cases are difficult. If someone says by any chance that they're not,

Speaker 26 they don't know what they're talking about. But to be quite frank, I was very, very positive.
And that rubbed off on him.

Speaker 11 But this is Remy after his conviction.

Speaker 10 He was an idiot. Everybody knows that.

Speaker 9 Everybody saw that.

Speaker 11 It's no surprise to hear a convicted killer badmouth his attorney. But maybe this time, this convict had a point.

Speaker 14 There's no way. This gentleman had enough knowledge to be able to represent somebody on a murder charge.

Speaker 11 Melissa Swartz and David Hammond became Remy's appeals attorneys in 2018. They were alarmed by Gilberto Garcia's inexperience.

Speaker 32 It was kind of unclear what type of law he practiced, what sorts of cases he handled. It was kind of all over the place.

Speaker 11 Garcia didn't have a legal specialty. He mostly handled civil matters, including bankruptcy and divorce.
They learned that he had never tried a single murder case.

Speaker 11 In fact, he'd only tried one criminal case his entire career, but withdrew before it finished, telling the judge he wasn't competent enough to defend his client.

Speaker 14 I think the Ramsarans stumbled upon somebody who was a very good salesman, right?

Speaker 14 He looked the part, he dressed the part, he talked the part, and they don't know enough to realize that he actually didn't know anything that he was talking about.

Speaker 11 The two attorneys poured over the trial record as well as the case file. That's when they discovered just how unprepared Remy's lawyer had been.

Speaker 11 They say it looked like he was learning criminal law as he went along, printing out information from Google.

Speaker 11 Is he Googling specific things about this case or he's just Googling general things about forensics?

Speaker 14 General things about forensics.

Speaker 32 General, basic concepts, almost like Wikipedia-style articles.

Speaker 14 Yeah, there was one on the basics of DNA.

Speaker 11 This is a defendant's worst nightmare if you have an attorney who's literally having to Google basic things about murder. Yes.

Speaker 14 I would hope it's every defendant's worst nightmare.

Speaker 11 And when it came to cross-examining witnesses, the new attorney, say Garcia's performance, proved even further just how ill-equipped he was to handle Remy's case.

Speaker 14 I mean, one of the most amazing things that I thought, I was like, wow, this guy really knows nothing about this case.

Speaker 14 He's in week two of a murder trial, and he's asking questions almost like he needs them to provide him with the answer because he doesn't know it.

Speaker 32 Cops would come and testify, and he'd say, All right, tell me everything you did in this case.

Speaker 32 At one point, he asked Cobb, why do you think he's guilty?

Speaker 20 Cop's like, well, this, this, this guy.

Speaker 7 Yeah, let me go on for seven pages.

Speaker 32 Very basic things you don't do.

Speaker 11 Is this like somebody watching Law and Order and then thinking they can go and try a murder case?

Speaker 14 Or Dateline.

Speaker 14 It's like somebody who's an avid Dateline fan, all of a sudden thinking, okay, I'm going to handle this four-week-long murder trial.

Speaker 11 Remy's family paid Garcia more than $100,000. They say much of it was supposed to be spent on expert witnesses.

Speaker 32 We were able to prove that at zero point throughout the entire

Speaker 32 period of time that he represented Remy, did he ever have a single conversation with a single expert?

Speaker 11 He didn't call any experts to testify. And according to Hammond, didn't prepare Remy for the most important moment of his life.

Speaker 32 And then he puts Remy on the stand, doesn't have a single conversation with him about the case.

Speaker 57 He said, you know, Remy, you're a very spontaneous person. If you are prepped, it's going to come across robotic, not genuine.
We don't want that. We don't want you prepped.

Speaker 32 Here's a guy who loves to talk. He's got no direction.
The questions are poorly framed. And so on cross-examination, it's a complete disaster.

Speaker 11 And then there was Garcia's closing argument.

Speaker 26 I've asked myself that question a million times. Is it possible Remy

Speaker 26 could have done it?

Speaker 11 Remy's new lawyer said the nearly two-hour summation was confusing and ineffective.

Speaker 26 We're going to paint this red

Speaker 26 and it will be red at the end.

Speaker 36 If there is a reasonable hypothesis...

Speaker 2 Let's move on. I'm not going to go there.

Speaker 7 This little thing

Speaker 26 can be a killer.

Speaker 11 According to Hammond and Swartz, the incompetence added up to an unfair trial.

Speaker 11 They presented what they learned about Garcia to the court in what's known as a 440 motion, hoping to get Remy's conviction reversed.

Speaker 14 It's very rare that 440 motions are actually granted.

Speaker 11 But with this case, as with Remy Ram Saran himself, you can never quite predict what will happen next.

Speaker 16 There's no words for it. I've never seen anything like it.

Speaker 11 Remy Ramsaran waited behind bars for years as his appeal wound its way through the New York courts.

Speaker 11 The petition his new attorneys filed in 2019 was a long shot, but they were confident.

Speaker 8 We knew we were going to win. It was so obvious.

Speaker 11 They were right. A judge found that Remy's attorney, Gilberto Garcia, was incompetent and granted Remy a new trial.

Speaker 11 Garcia was also censured by the New Jersey Office of Attorney Ethics for misrepresenting his experience to the Ramsaran family.

Speaker 11 And while he defended his reputation at a hearing for Remy's appeal, Garcia told Dateline he respects the judge's decision to grant a new trial.

Speaker 12 I always had faith it would happen.

Speaker 11 I mean, there's two different things. There's one, not getting a fair trial, but someone could still be guilty and not get a fair trial.

Speaker 12 Yeah, I just don't think he did. I don't even think

Speaker 12 the Eileen thing would have ever caused him to do any sort of harm to my mom. I think it would have been highly more likely for my mom to have just left the house, but

Speaker 12 for any violence to occur is insane. I still don't see

Speaker 12 how murder would have been a solution to any problem.

Speaker 11 There was a new prosecutor on the case, Ben Bergman. On one point, he agreed with the defense.

Speaker 11 You're on the other side of Remy Ramsaran as the acting prosecutor here, but did you agree that he should have a new trial based on what you saw?

Speaker 16 Yeah, no doubt. I don't think I've ever seen or have heard of the sort of ineffectiveness that occurred in this case.

Speaker 11 Still, that didn't mean he believed Remy was innocent. How certain were you that Remy Ram-Saran killed his wife?

Speaker 16 No doubt in my mind.

Speaker 11 The new prosecutor got up to speed on all the evidence. He also went looking for more.

Speaker 16 We did a lot of analysis on computers, phones, and things like that, and we got some good information.

Speaker 11 Turned out that very morning Jen disappeared, she'd left these three voicemails for Rob, her UK gaming friend.

Speaker 47 I'll stop now so the voicemail isn't too long and goes through.

Speaker 11 What was on the voicemails to Rob?

Speaker 16 Basic pleasantries. Hi, how are you doing?

Speaker 47 You know, I got up and brushed my teeth and brushed my hair.

Speaker 16 Talked about letting her dog out.

Speaker 16 Zero mention of, I'm leaving the house to go shopping today. Zero mention of that.

Speaker 47 The youngest one lost another tooth at school yesterday. I think it's her seventh or eighth, but

Speaker 47 five or six teeth in the last less than a week.

Speaker 16 In those three messages, you get the clear picture. She had no intention of leaving the house that day.

Speaker 11 So you don't believe she was ever going to the carousel mall in Syracuse?

Speaker 16 No, absolutely not.

Speaker 11 Bergman believed that drove a hole right through Remy's story about that day. But the prosecutor faced a new obstacle.

Speaker 11 For the retrial, the judge was not going to allow Rob to testify remotely from the UK, and Rob refused to fly to the U.S.

Speaker 11 Was that a big deal to your prosecution not having him?

Speaker 16 Yeah, it was huge because, you know, there was a very tight timeline that we were using.

Speaker 11 Another witness, Lieutenant Richard Cobb, the lead investigator, passed away from a heart attack. He was only 53.

Speaker 16 The community was shook when they heard of his passing.

Speaker 11 It was shocking for us as well to hear this news and also a blow to your investigation, to your,

Speaker 11 you know, before this trial.

Speaker 16 Yeah, losing your lead investigator on a murder case is never a good thing, ever.

Speaker 11 Also not good for the state's case. In one of Remy's appeals, a judge found that the original prosecutor mischaracterized the significance of that blood on Remy's sweatshirt.

Speaker 16 There was blood on the sweatshirt, but there's no way scientifically to tell whose it is because it was a mixture. So it could have been Jen's DNA and his blood.
Could have been her blood and his DNA.

Speaker 16 Could have been both of them. You know, you just don't know.
So that really wasn't of any value.

Speaker 11 So Bergman wouldn't use it for the retrial, but he hoped to use Remy's own words against him, specifically something he told me.

Speaker 16 When you were interviewing him, there comes a point where you ask him some question

Speaker 16 about,

Speaker 16 you know, he wasn't having a good life or things weren't going well for him.

Speaker 20 I had the perfect life.

Speaker 21 Had a wife, had a girlfriend, had kids, have everything anyone would want.

Speaker 16 It was very cold. That's not the reaction of someone who's being falsely accused.

Speaker 11 Meanwhile, Remy's attorneys were making their own preparations. They thought the state's timeline didn't make sense.
And they talked to a witness who seemed to contradict it.

Speaker 11 He said he saw someone driving Jen's van hours later that afternoon.

Speaker 32 He could point to precisely where it was driving. He knew almost exactly what time of day this was on December 11th.

Speaker 32 It was around 5.30 p.m., well after this van is allegedly dropped at the apartments when Remy is demonstrably at home.

Speaker 32 And he says the van pulls over, it's very suspicious, and it was a burnt orange Chrysler town and country van.

Speaker 11 Did that witness see someone else driving the van that they believe was not Remy?

Speaker 32 He couldn't make out who was in the car. But Remy demonstrably couldn't have been driving the van.
He's at home.

Speaker 2 He's at home.

Speaker 32 Calling the police. Mr.
Garcia was well aware of this witness, but that witness was never called.

Speaker 11 Hammond and Swartz believed that could mean the real killer, not Remy, was out dumping the body, the phone, and the van. And they had one more new discovery, a potentially huge one.

Speaker 11 They hired a DNA expert to review the forensic reports, and she found this.

Speaker 14 Under Jennifer Ramsaran's fingernails was male DNA.

Speaker 11 It was a partial profile of male DNA. Their experts said it was not enough to conclusively identify a person, but she could say it did not come from Remy.
That's a mysterious element to this.

Speaker 14 It is a mysterious element because if you know anything about DNA under fingernails, most experts will testify that it has to be, it's not from a handshake, right?

Speaker 14 It's not from me touching Dave's leg quickly. It's from some sort of, you know,

Speaker 14 actual contact.

Speaker 11 Contact like a struggle between a victim and an attacker.

Speaker 32 Combine another man's DNA under her fingernails with the van being driven by someone else, it suddenly was a very interesting defense the second time around.

Speaker 11 Interesting is one way to describe what happened next.

Speaker 10 I have never done what

Speaker 7 you're talking about.

Speaker 10 You have no idea. Have you ever been in prison? It is hilarious.

Speaker 11 Remy Ramsaran remained behind bars even after he won an appeal granting him a new trial. We spoke over Zoom from the county jail.

Speaker 10 One thing about me, I'm straightforward.

Speaker 9 I tell it like it is.

Speaker 11 And like our last interview, he had plenty to say about his innocence. You feel you're wrongfully accused?

Speaker 3 I've always been.

Speaker 10 Always been wrongfully accused. And that's the tip of the iceberg.
And you might think that I'm arrogant or this or that. I have nothing to hide.

Speaker 9 I've always told the truth.

Speaker 18 I'm a classic oversharer.

Speaker 10 And guess what? In all of my interviews with the cops and everything else, I've never said anything to

Speaker 10 incriminate myself.

Speaker 11 He also wanted to talk about his first trial.

Speaker 10 What convicted me were people and their words. People and their lies, especially the cops.

Speaker 11 And he had harsh words for his own defense attorney. What would you say to Gilberto Garcia?

Speaker 10 Scumbag. You're a scumbag.
He knows he's a scumbag.

Speaker 11 Gilberto Garcia had something to say about his former client, too. He now tells Dateline he believed Remy was guilty from day one.

Speaker 11 I want to ask you something from our first interview which was a memorable moment for a lot of people you said i had the perfect life i had a wife i had a girlfriend i had the kids you said your life was fantastic it was you don't have any regrets about none whatsoever it's the truth my life was perfect i had a great life period great so you haven't reflected on the fact that you had another woman and that what are you talking about that led to all of this it's not i had another woman what a lot of people didn't understand, and I didn't want to say it when I interviewed with you originally, we had threesomes.

Speaker 10 It was my wife, Eileen, and myself. There is no issues.
And it was going on for a while.

Speaker 11 That was a brand new claim. Eileen insists it's not true.
And curiously, Remy never told the police about it during the investigation. Your life is on the line, and you're not going to reveal that?

Speaker 11 There's no need.

Speaker 10 What did I tell you from the beginning? What did they have on me? Nothing, because I didn't do anything.

Speaker 11 Remy then told me this.

Speaker 11 How has it been for you sitting in a cell day after day as

Speaker 11 you clearly have so much bottled up? Is this all you think about all day long?

Speaker 2 Not at all.

Speaker 10 Prison is easy. You don't understand.
There's so much freedom in prison.

Speaker 10 It's crazy to say. I'm a guy, Mr.
Corporate America, Charles Schwab and Company, American Express, IBM. Prison is freedom.

Speaker 21 Look, I have never done.

Speaker 7 What are you talking about?

Speaker 10 You have no idea. Have you ever been in prison? It is hilarious.
You can get cell phones. You can get anything you want in prison if you are looking for it.

Speaker 11 It is.

Speaker 11 You're trying to say you're a shark in prison.

Speaker 10 No, not me.

Speaker 3 Absolutely not.

Speaker 9 I'm telling you, prison's a joke.

Speaker 10 Prison has a lot of freedom. You can get basically anything you want.

Speaker 11 You can get anything you want except for your freedom.

Speaker 10 Do you know what freedom is in there? There's so much freedom like you wouldn't believe. It is insane.

Speaker 11 One of the problems people had with your interview last time was that they felt like you were arrogant and the way you were talking, it was like, it was like you didn't care or you didn't care about your wife.

Speaker 11 And now here you are saying that you're Mr. Corporate America and prison's easy.
And you sound like

Speaker 11 you sound arrogant again.

Speaker 10 It's not arrogance. It's the truth.

Speaker 11 Remy, I forgot how much energy you have. It's not about energy.

Speaker 10 I have, look, I'm Mr. Marathon.

Speaker 2 Bottom line, I am innocent.

Speaker 10 I've always been innocent.

Speaker 11 Would the next jury agree? Turns out, we'll never know.

Speaker 14 I think there was challenges from both sides. I think we had a difficult job.

Speaker 14 It's very hard to reinvestigate a case that's 10 years old, but it's also extremely difficult to prosecute a case that's 10 years old.

Speaker 16 So we're gearing up for trial, and we started talking about plea offers. At one point, the defense approached me asking if I would take a plea or accept a plea.

Speaker 16 And I said, all right, listen, I'll talk to the parents about it. I'll go up today.

Speaker 11 Jen's parents made clear what was important to them.

Speaker 16 We met with the parents and went over the pros and cons. And they wanted him to go into that courtroom and say that he was guilty.

Speaker 11 Remy agreed to do just that. In October 2023, he pleaded guilty to a reduced charge of manslaughter.
There would be no second trial.

Speaker 16 He admitted to killing his wife, the mother of those kids.

Speaker 11 Instead of possibly spending the rest of his life in prison, Remy was sentenced to 22 years. But with time served, his attorneys expect he'll serve less than half.

Speaker 14 So he'll be out of prison, I believe, somewhere around eight and a half years.

Speaker 11 There will be people watching this who will feel like, what?

Speaker 11 He's killed his wife and that's it? That's all he has left?

Speaker 16 Yeah, no doubt. You know,

Speaker 16 and I get that, but there's a chance we could have went to trial and we lost. Then there's no more time he gets.
If I have the parents of a victim, a murder victim, who are saying to me that we

Speaker 16 agree to this and that brings them some peace,

Speaker 16 that has a lot of value.

Speaker 11 With this guilty plea, are you now saying that you killed your wife? Did you kill John?

Speaker 26 Not at all.

Speaker 10 The answer is no.

Speaker 11 Remy told us that while he said the word guilty in court, he is anything but.

Speaker 10 I am not guilty. I am innocent.

Speaker 11 You have a fantastic new defense team. Why not try to clear your name?

Speaker 10 How? With this deal? With this jury?

Speaker 36 Are you kidding me?

Speaker 11 Remy says he would rather spend eight more years in prison for a crime he didn't commit than take his chances with a legal system he doesn't trust.

Speaker 9 The jury pools are attained. That's just fact.

Speaker 11 What comes next for you when you get out? Are you going to work to clear your name? Are you going to re-enter

Speaker 7 my name?

Speaker 10 I'm not worried about that. Thanks to you folks, find out whose DNA is underneath my wife's fingernails.

Speaker 2 And that will be.

Speaker 11 That is certainly a promise that I cannot make.

Speaker 11 Remy's son, Glenn, has always believed his dad was innocent and supported the decision to take a guilty plea instead of risking life in prison. Do you think about the future when your dad gets out?

Speaker 11 Which will be within this, the next decade?

Speaker 12 Not really.

Speaker 12 I don't know what my life will be.

Speaker 12 You know, I'll graduate with a bachelor's in mechanical engineering. Eight years is a lot of time.
I can't bother to imagine what life will be like. I just have to make do for now.

Speaker 11 Eileen told us that even all these years later, thinking about Remy and what happened still feels like a nightmare she can't wake up from.

Speaker 11 But she'll also never stop thinking about her friend Jen. How do you want Jen to be remembered?

Speaker 11 As a beautiful woman that she was, kind and

Speaker 7 loving,

Speaker 15 would do anything for anyone. And she did those things for me.

Speaker 11 Some people are going to remember you as being the worst kind of friend to Jen.

Speaker 15 You know, you can't take back what you've done.

Speaker 15 But what we shared as friends, I will always hold close to my heart our talks and the things we did.

Speaker 11 And if you had have gotten that second chance to talk to her, what would you have told her?

Speaker 15 I'm so very sorry.

Speaker 15 So very sorry.

Speaker 11 What do you miss most about your mom?

Speaker 12 I mean, I miss everything about her. You know, I wish she could be here for my sisters,

Speaker 12 my younger sister, especially, because I see my mom and her so much.

Speaker 6 That's all for this edition of Dateline. And check out our Talking Dateline podcast.
Andrea Canning and Josh Mankiewicz will go behind the scenes of tonight's episode.

Speaker 6 Available Wednesday in the Dateline feed wherever you get your podcasts. We'll see you again Sunday at 10, 9 Central.
I'm Lester Holt, for all of us at NBC News. Good night.

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