Talking Dateline: Dead Man Talking

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Speaker 2 Hi, I'm Josh Mankowitz, and this is Talking Dateline. And today I'm interviewing, you can say your name, Andrea Canning.
So great to see you. I don't see you in person so often.

Speaker 3 I love seeing your face. Even though the listeners can't see it, I can right now, and I like seeing it.

Speaker 2 Thank you. And we're going to be talking today about Andrea's episode called Dead Man Talking, which is a great title.
Well, here's our first little behind-the-scenes tidbit.

Speaker 2 The titles of these episodes are almost the only thing in an hour or two-hour dateline episode that the correspondents don't really play a role in writing. And so, you know, that is true.

Speaker 2 People say to me, you know, what happened in the mystery of, you know, Apple Beach? I'm almost like, which one was that? Because I don't remember them by the.

Speaker 2 titles of the episodes because we didn't play any role in that. But actually, I think Dead Man Talking is a great title.
So you were on this story for a really long time.

Speaker 2 This wasn't something you started like two months before it aired. You were pretty involved in this story.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I love getting involved.

Speaker 2 In this case, you ended up getting on the phone with some of these women, some of the people in the story, and persuading them to be on Dateline, which I think is like one reason why this came out so well.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And sometimes it just takes that involvement. And Lynn Keller, the producer, also, it was just a matter of us getting on the phone.
We like to do that together as a team. I like all things weird.

Speaker 3 So when I saw, and I've, that's been like forever in my career that I always gravitate toward the weird stories. And as soon as I saw this pop up, can't even remember where now.
It's been so long.

Speaker 3 It's been, you know, a couple of years. I just, I said, we have to do this story.
This is such a fascinating story. And it really was one when we jumped on it, had no conclusion.

Speaker 3 You know, so we, we jumped on for the ride and have been on it ever since.

Speaker 2 It certainly was a ride.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's exactly how I describe it because it's, it's, you get to look back into this guy's past to see, you know, what he was like as a kid and then what he was like later.

Speaker 3 Yeah, well, and let's talk about him, you know, who we're talking about. His name is Nicholas Rossi.

Speaker 3 He is from Rhode Island and he got into a lot of trouble, a lot of allegations, you know, ranging from allegations of fraud to sexual assault. And the authorities were after Nicholas.

Speaker 3 And then he disappeared because

Speaker 3 he died. So Nicholas Rossi

Speaker 3 was no longer available to be arrested, apparently, because he was dead.

Speaker 2 Which feels like the end of the story.

Speaker 3 But it's not.

Speaker 2 We're jumping ahead a little bit here, but everybody who's listening to this presumably did see the story. And

Speaker 2 if you didn't watch it on Dateline or stream it on Peacock, you should probably listen to the story before you hear

Speaker 2 our behind-the-scenes explanation of it. But for people who did see the story or have already listened to it on podcast, what do you think he would be up to if he hadn't gotten COVID?

Speaker 2 Because one of the true things about this story, one of the absolutely provable things about his story is he did get COVID and he did nearly die from it and he didn't have to go to the hospital.

Speaker 2 And that's where he ended up getting arrested.

Speaker 2 It seems not implausible to believe that, like, you know, if he hadn't been first laid up with COVID and then locked up finally, there might be more women in danger.

Speaker 3 I think law enforcement would absolutely agree with that. I know his victims agree with that.
You know, they just wanted him to be stopped.

Speaker 3 What we've heard is that law enforcement used his online presence to catch up with him. So what he was doing was what we were told was that he would keep changing his IP address.

Speaker 3 And then, you know, they'd show up at these addresses and he wouldn't. be there because he was kind of leading them on this wild goose chase.
But apparently they finally did figure it out.

Speaker 3 And based on what we've been told, they finally showed up at his flat in Glasgow where they found his wife who told them that he was in the Scottish hospital.

Speaker 2 And finally, he's wearing handcuffs.

Speaker 3 Yes, finally.

Speaker 2 It shows you, unfortunately, how if you're a criminal and you're that bold and you're willing to tell those lies and keep telling them and you're persuasive at it, the system is sort of not set up to stop people like that.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And I think also part of it was people that the women told us they were so afraid of him that a lot of them didn't go forward and, you know, in press charges.

Speaker 3 Like they would call the police, but then they wouldn't want to go forward with it.

Speaker 2 It's astonishing how long this guy's past took to catch up with him. I mean, it finally did,

Speaker 2 but it sure took a long time. Yeah.

Speaker 3 This is catch me if you can. And he's calling people.

Speaker 3 you know he's calling the state police he's calling the reporter you know so it was interesting how he's toying with them, you know, a little bit, where he's, he's bold.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he's, he's never playing defense. He's on offense all the time.
And this was the refrain that I sort of felt lasted, you know, all the way through, which is, everybody's against me.

Speaker 2 Everybody's conspiring against me. I'm the one being persecuted here.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And it was really incredible the way that he had built himself up in death. You know, his obituary is like reads, you know,

Speaker 3 who said it? The priest said, you'd think he was a cross between Mother Teresa and the Dalai Lama, I think was

Speaker 3 something like that.

Speaker 2 When you get a chance to write your own obituary, don't hold back. When you say to Dateline, I got this story about this con man, but it's going to require

Speaker 2 going overseas. How'd that meeting go?

Speaker 3 I mean, for this particular story, we had to, you know, to be able to properly do the story. And what we did was we got the key interview before we asked to go to Scotland.

Speaker 3 So we got the interview with Nicholas Rossi. That interview was like no other interview I've ever done before.
It was really wild. And

Speaker 3 wow, I mean, he's on this roller coaster in the interview. He's crying.
Then he's getting mad at me. Then he's, you know, like getting mad at other people.
And he's, he's just like all over the place.

Speaker 2 You know, he does not seem super charming to me. What is

Speaker 2 how does he, how does he sort of get people into his orbit and to feel comfortable with him?

Speaker 3 I think people do think he's charming in the beginning.

Speaker 3 I think he, if you talk to the women, you know, he's, he's very nice and friendly and he's, you know, he tells them he went to Harvard and he's trying to make change.

Speaker 3 And I do think that there is that, there is some element of charm.

Speaker 2 I just don't think it lasts very long. I always get the feeling that in the United States, there's sort of a competition

Speaker 2 between the number of fake Navy SEALs and the number of fake Harvard graduates, because there's a lot of both, probably more than the genuine article in both cases.

Speaker 3 Yeah, he certainly loved bragging about Harvard.

Speaker 2 And he had all the paraphernalia.

Speaker 3 He did take a couple of extension courses from Harvard. So there was a tiny connection.
It just, he was definitely no Harvard grad.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and he clearly stopped by the bookstore there, I think.

Speaker 3 Snapped up some you got to play the part, Josh, you know, swag.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 One of the one thing that I just noticed uh looking at your story was uh when you interviewed the guy who i think was his attorney briefly in rhode island uh jeff pine um i went to college with him i haven't seen him in like 45 years i was like oh hi jeff pine are you serious yeah he went on to be attorney general of rhode island i remember seeing that but uh no way i mean we're not friends but i i hadn't seen him in so long oh my gosh that is really funny wow Tell me about Castle FU.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 What would it be without a Scottish castle in the end david levitt and his wife had wanted to buy a castle in europe for many years and they'd been looking and then this castle came for sale about 50 miles from glasgow and so they at first um david told me they weren't going to buy it because of date uh because of of nicholas arthur knight being in glasgow they were actually concerned about their safety.

Speaker 3 And then they finally said, you know, we can't let this guy rule our life any more than he already has. And so they bought the castle.

Speaker 3 And when we were interviewing this extradition attorney in Edinburgh, he said, yeah, we've, we've all been calling it the FU castle because, you know, he's, the castle's only 50 miles from where Nicholas was apprehended.

Speaker 3 We went to the castle and it's just,

Speaker 3 it's beautiful. I mean, it's, it's on this gorgeous lock.
And once he's done with it, I'm sure it's going to be incredible.

Speaker 2 You had a nightmare because of this story. Oh, yeah, I did.
I actually did.

Speaker 2 That's not something that normally happens. No, no.

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Speaker 2 People ask me a lot whether I get nightmares as a result of the stories we cover. I do.
And I truthfully answer that I don't. But in this case, you did.

Speaker 3 He was so strange.

Speaker 3 I think all the things I'd heard about him and how he goes after people, I think it might have been like two nights in a row. And then the nightmare stops.

Speaker 2 And now you're, and now you're sleeping perfectly, right? No, I'm fine.

Speaker 3 I sleep like a baby now.

Speaker 2 It sounds like he's going to be extradited and there's going to be a trial and you're going to end up doing another dateline on this. I don't see how you're

Speaker 2 not.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I certainly hope so. The extradition hearing is supposed to last for a week.
It will be in June as of right now. And then, you know, we'll see where we go from there.

Speaker 2 One of the interesting things about this story is that it's one of the few date lines that I can think of in which no one dies except the defendant.

Speaker 2 Very true.

Speaker 3 Very true.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 there's no murder here. There's violence, but there's no murder.

Speaker 3 And yes, that's why at the top of the show we say, and a mysterious death.

Speaker 2 Right. Well, that's good.
That's right. It is a mysterious death.
Not the one you're thinking about, though, when you're, if you've watched enough daylight.

Speaker 2 Usually the mysterious death is something that somebody's going to get accused of. So, you know, one of the lessons here, clearly,

Speaker 2 I was thinking about this,

Speaker 2 is don't get tattoos because

Speaker 2 that's a whole other way of identifying you. I loved how he wouldn't show you the tattoos during the interview.
I thought that was great.

Speaker 2 You know, when he's got this mask on in front of his face, you can't really see what he looks like. You were kind of exposing him, and he, even because he wasn't playing along.

Speaker 2 I thought you did a great job of that interview.

Speaker 3 You know, it's more challenging because I'm, wasn't in the room with him, right? You know, for that, which I wish I was, but I wasn't.

Speaker 3 But I think the mask is definitely a crutch, you know, for, you know, for hiding things. And actually, funny story, Jane, the podcaster who did the podcast on this called I Am Not Nicholas.

Speaker 3 So she, she saw him in the Glasgow hotel when he was on the phone with me.

Speaker 3 So what happened was we had set up this interview with Arthur and Miranda, and he uses the opportunity to call a press conference. He calls the rest of the Scottish media and they all show up.

Speaker 3 And anyway, so I'm on the phone with him. Like, what are you doing? This is, this is our interview.
What are you doing? And Jane happens to see him on the phone with me.

Speaker 3 And he takes his mask off for the phone call and she sees a space between his teeth, his two front teeth.

Speaker 3 And she goes back to the, to Nicholas Rossi, and she sees the same space between the teeth and that's that's when she was like really sold that it was him was that moment when she saw that gap between his teeth and it was identical to the one from america undone by his diastema that's what she said i know what it's called because of this i'm pointing

Speaker 3 pointing at my teeth right now yes well if you try to fake your death we'll use that against you you'll have to get like teeth work done just like he had tattoo work done he he just he didn't have his teeth done i'll keep that in mind yeah You know, the woman, Catherine, who recorded him, I thought she.

Speaker 3 Oh, yes, Catherine Heckendorn, one of his ex-wives.

Speaker 2 I thought that she, I mean,

Speaker 2 what a huge favor she did to so many other people by doing that.

Speaker 2 I mean, because in those recordings, you really get a sense of sort of the rage that comes out of this guy when he's not getting his way.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and not just through the spoken word, you know, the yelling.

Speaker 3 The creepiest thing was when she came came back to their

Speaker 3 place and he had been ordered to leave and there's a gun sitting on the couch, she said, that he just left the gun there as a message. That scared the living daylights out of her.

Speaker 2 I mean, I think you really see in both Mary and Catherine the sort of

Speaker 2 willpower of two women to insist that

Speaker 2 this guy, whatever his name is, however you know him, be held accountable.

Speaker 2 And they they insisted on that sort of even when he was, I'm not going to say the criminal justice system was allowing him to evade

Speaker 2 responsibility, but certainly they hadn't yet brought him before the bar, you know, and he was, you know, he was essentially evading. He hadn't been caught yet.

Speaker 2 And these two women, like really, you know, both in both cases, just took

Speaker 2 tremendous willpower.

Speaker 2 And, and, you know, I mean, recording this guy, who you know to be dangerous and scary and violent is a, uh, uh is a very difficult thing to do and she did it yeah they were they were very brave it's the best thing you can do for the next victim you know to avoid having another victim right which is an important thing to keep in mind which is you know it's not just about you it's about the next person the next person exactly yeah yeah i i just i love talking to these women i really did there was they were so

Speaker 3 just The fact that I just, you know, you cold call someone about the worst experience of their life

Speaker 3 and they say yes.

Speaker 3 And they'll do it. And then they do it with such grace and strength.
And it's like when you talk to people like that, you're just like, wow, how did you do it?

Speaker 3 You know, and why are you talking to me right now? How are you able to talk to me about this right now? I'm always so impressed when people, when people can do that. It's really amazing.

Speaker 2 And it's one of the reasons this story was so good because if you don't have those two women in it, like you don't have a sense of their strength.

Speaker 3 And the stories that they tell aren't as good if if you're having to tell it without yeah, oh gosh, yes, even even Nafsika with the vegan cheese company, you know, she was after him like as soon as she realized what was happening, you know, she hired a private investigator.

Speaker 3 She went to the police. She tried everything she could.

Speaker 3 Of course, you know, Nicholas was always one step ahead or Arthur in her case.

Speaker 3 But, you know, she, she was also willing to, to, because he was really terrorizing her online. And he's ruthless.
Oh, he is absolutely ruthless. Yeah.
Yeah. And you know what?

Speaker 3 Just for people who didn't, maybe haven't watched it, just in case, we should say that maybe that the judge ruled that Arthur Knight is Nicholas Rossi.

Speaker 2 One of the things we should mention is that Nicholas slash Arthur denies this.

Speaker 2 The man who says he's Arthur denies that he's Nicholas Rossi.

Speaker 2 and says that the fingerprint evidence that identified him is incorrect and that he's not done any of the things that Nicholas Rossi is accused of doing because they're not the same person.

Speaker 2 And he hasn't been tried yet for that or even extradited at this point. So what the eventual legal disposal of this case is, we don't know.
But

Speaker 2 Mr. Knight,

Speaker 2 which is,

Speaker 2 if that's the person you were interviewing,

Speaker 2 maintains his innocence and says he is not guilty of any of the things that Nicholas Rossi's accused of.

Speaker 3 That is correct.

Speaker 2 Okay. Well, anything we want to, anything you want to wrap up with? When you're shooting on the streets of Glasgow, do people walk up to you and say, where are you from?

Speaker 2 And you say, we're from a show called Dateline. And they say, what's that? Or do they say, oh, we watch that?

Speaker 3 No. No one.

Speaker 3 I'd love to report that everyone in Scotland is watching Dateline, but they're not.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 3 I'll just say, I mean,

Speaker 3 this is one of the weirdest, if not the weirdest Datelines I've ever done. And

Speaker 3 Nicholas/slash Arthur is one of the strangest interviews I've ever done. This one will go down in the history books for me as,

Speaker 3 you know, the weird and wackiest for sure.

Speaker 2 Andrea, thank you for talking, Dateline. This has been fun.
So fun. Always great to see you.
You too.

Speaker 2 And, you know, you and everybody else,

Speaker 2 see you Fridays on Dateline on NBC.

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