Virginia - Sic Semper Tyrannis

Are you rolling?

I'm rolling.

You wait to see falling water?

Motherfucker, I was born ready.

I'm Janet Varney, and welcome to ePleuribus Motto, the show dedicated to celebrating the official mottos, birds, snacks, and symbols of every state in the nation, no matter how strange, boring, or batty.

This week it's my turn to present the Commonwealth of Virginia to my co-host, John Hodgman, everything from the birds to the bats and so much more.

Did you pick up on how I said batty earlier?

Then later on, I'll chat with Dimitri Pompei from Max Fun's Euro Evangelist podcast to get his thoughts on Virginia as someone who just can't quit the mother of states.

And before you ask, yes, this podcast is for lovers.

Friend, my name is Janet Varney.

I am sitting across from, in live person, making eye contact with, my co-host of ePluribus Motto, Mr.

John Hodgkin.

Here we are again.

The rain has stopped.

I'm hearing some occasional thunder.

Some occasional thunder.

Some rumbles and grumbles.

We are here together in Brooklyn, New York.

We are.

It's a beautiful, I will say a beautiful rainy day because I like the rain.

What does rest for it?

Not at all.

No.

The listener, whom you referred to as friend, singular, I noticed.

There might be more than one.

No, no, no.

This is the secret to podcasting.

Oh, it has to seem like you're just talking to one person.

We're just talking to one person?

We're just talking to thousands of one person.

All right.

Today's podcast listener is Amy.

Hi, Amy.

Amy.

This one's just for you.

Amy.

Amy, I hope that thing, you know what I'm talking about, has been going okay for you and your specific life, Amy.

You know what, Amy?

I have faith in you, and I know you're going, whatever time of day you're listening to this,

whatever you're going to do next, you're going to do a bit of a princess of darkness.

So probably at night that she's wheeling and dealing.

Exactly.

Behind closed doors.

Amy, great to see you again.

And if you ever share this with any of your other friends, if anyone else might be listening, hello to you too.

Now,

before we move on from Massachusetts, I would like to invite listeners, keep an eye on our friend, the Prince of Darkness, William Francis

Calvin.

We have a lot of episodes to record.

And if there's any change in his professional,

if he steps down from office, I hope that someone will send us a letter right away.

Please.

But where are we going to today on this in this crazy ride what a ride

the continent named by italians is north america today we are and we teased it last week we are visiting the commonwealth aka state of virginia virginia for me a very intimidating state to talk about because there is a lot tied to America's history that takes place or derives from or is extremely adjacent to the Commonwealth of Virginia.

I felt felt as if.

I'm saying that to me I'm from Boston.

I'm saying that I know, listen, there's one thing, yes, you're the hub of the universe, etc., etc., etc.

Of this particularly shitty universe, I would say yes.

And yet.

Does Virginia have a Freedom Trail?

Do feel.

I don't know, probably.

I do feel that

it has been a very important state for good and for ill.

Right.

Significant.

It's significant, very

different.

To the degree where, very impactful, to the degree where I feel like someone has or should or will do an entire podcast series on the history of Virginia.

We are not going to be doing that today, but it just goes on and on and on.

And it's all long stories about moments in history or eras in history that have informed the very way in which we conduct ourselves as Americans today.

So it's a bit intimidating.

I guarantee you, if you are a Virginia wonk, you will not be satisfied.

You will not be satisfied.

By the coverage that we are going to give this state today.

That being said, we're going to try to touch on as much as we can.

And you will,

I feel confident, see some overlap between the conversation that we had about Massachusetts and this one about Virginia.

Well, let me tell you something about our friend Amy.

Amy's no Virginia wonk.

Amy's not a Virginia wonk.

Amy's just someone who enjoys a light podcast about weird facts.

I'm so that's

what we're offering, Amy.

What we're catering to is Amy.

What if Amy's actually like a scholar of the history of the world?

No he's in so much trouble.

I'm in so much trouble.

Amy, Amy, what if Amy lives in Monticello?

Amy, stop listening to this right now.

Yeah, Amy, this one isn't for you.

If you're a Virginian.

But we do still want one listener.

So I know you're sitting next to your friend, Gray.

Please.

Gray?

Uh-huh.

Like the color?

That's a very Virginia name.

Thank you.

Could be anybody.

Gray, we're not going to presume to know much about Gray.

Would you please hand your very high quality earphones to Gray?

I'm sorry.

Gray's going to put them on their ears.

Gray feels like someone is going to.

Gray's not judgy, not like you think.

I just.

Okay, well.

You're telling me

Gray wasn't the treasurer of his frat?

Amy, I'm so sorry.

We're leaving you behind.

No, Amy, you can still listen to this podcast.

More than one person can listen to the podcast.

I'm sorry that you've.

All right.

To our two listeners, one of which is going to be very disappointed by this explanation of the Commonwealth of Virginia.

One, who's going to be just fine with it because they're not a wonk, Amy and Gray.

We are going to be talking about the Commonwealth of Virginia, also known by many other names.

So far, in our short time of doing this podcast, I would say has the most nicknames.

The most nicknames.

Known as pre-American Revolution, known as the Old Dominion.

Old Dominion.

Super creepy.

Very scary.

Doesn't sound good.

Science fictiony.

Science fictiony.

Yeah.

Not surprisingly related to

King Charles,

King Charles II.

Right.

The Stuart King who was restored.

That's right.

That's right.

After the English Civil War took out Oliver Cromwell and his new model army.

Indeed, he was, and had supporters in Virginia who, in fact, were called and called themselves the Cavaliers.

So that leads to it being known also as the Cavalier State.

And that's after the American Civil War.

Cavalier is still going strong.

It's also known as a

Mother of States because it was a large territory.

Mother of states.

Mother of States.

I'm so hungry over here.

Mother of states.

Mother of states.

For being a large area.

Yeah.

You know what my nickname is for it?

The Hoity-Toity State.

Is it?

Yeah, very Hoity-Toity.

Okay.

A lot of its mythologizing is around, you know,

being

southern gentlemen.

Yeah.

Do you have other thoughts that are or are not hoity-toity?

Well, shout out to my friend Jay Evans from Brookline, Massachusetts, who's holding it down at

the art supply store there in Richmond, Virginia for the past decade and a half.

This is the Virginia I know.

I've not spent that much time there, but I've been to Richmond,

and I liked it a lot.

I thought it was great.

It's the kind of place where I want to have a friend who works in an art supply store.

That's perfect.

I did not know you were going to say that.

And maybe he's either in a band or he's friends with some people in cool bands.

A lot of cool bands have come out of Richmond.

A lot of cool bands have come out.

A certain Amy Mann has come out of Richmond.

And Boston, arguably.

God damn it.

A little of both.

A little of both.

Amy, not the same Amy as our one listener of the the podcast.

She's a dear friend.

Why are you letting Amy?

Love by Amy Mann.

Yeah, but no, Amy Mann is originally from Richmond, it's true.

But then she worked at Newberry Comics in Boston.

Yes, and in the grand tradition of most of my friends from Richmond, quote, couldn't wait to get out there.

The other thing I know about Virginia pretty much is that the National Theater in Richmond is a great music venue.

And in the backstage, in the green room, they have a hot tub.

I did not know that.

True story.

Don't know why you need that.

True story.

Or afraid afraid I do know why you need that.

You ever want a hot tub with the mountain goats?

You sneak back straight.

That's not unappealing.

But what is the motto of Virginia even?

So the motto of Virginia is six semper tyrannis.

No, it is not.

I think you knew that already.

I didn't know that.

Really?

I thought we talked about that.

Well, I forgot.

Well, and that may have been offline.

I thought perhaps you remembered it because I know that for me, it was one of the early mottos I learned.

And I learned it because, and I want to give a big shout out to listener Max Fund supporter Stacia, who, or Stacia, and I apologize for not knowing which one it is.

She's pronounced Amy.

And of course, I'm talking to you, Amy.

For whom I drew some stuff to do with Virginia when I was doing our little fundraiser and getting support and getting support for the JV Club.

And so we discussed the fact that Stacia and Stacia and I discussed the fact that the motto was sic semper tyrannis for thus always to tyrants.

Thus always to tyrants.

Always get caught on the fact that you say tyrant, but you say tyranny.

But

the more beloved tourism motto, which really made waves and paved the way for some other stuff that we're going to be talking about,

Virginia is for lovers.

I'm sorry.

You've remembered it just a little off.

I say Virginia is for lovers.

Fucking optional.

Fucking optional.

It's the slogan for Massachusetts.

Now, you don't have to.

It's your choice.

It's your choice.

You could go into the priesthood, boys, and find Korea.

Sometimes.

What I was going to say, I saw the first time I encountered this motto

was in the, I was in Brookline, Massachusetts at the Circle Cinema.

Uh-huh.

God, all roads really do lead back to Massachusetts.

In my mind.

Every experience of every other state you're having.

It was was something

to Massachusetts.

Let me just say, my teenage years were unlike anyone else's in that they were fun and memorable.

I was seeing the movie Something Wild.

Oh, sure.

Jeff Daniels, Melanie Griffith.

Jeff Daniels and Melanie Griffith.

And in that movie, Jeff Daniels and Melanie Griffith on this whirlwind kind of romance road trip.

Yeah.

And then Ray Liota shows up as her dangerous ex-boyfriend

and kind of like kidnaps her, basically.

And Jeff Daniels follows them and he stops at a convenience store and changes his clothes because he's been beaten up and his clothes are all bloody.

And he puts on a t-shirt or a hat that says Virginia is for lovers.

Okay.

Which was kind of funny because it's so weird and dorky for him to wear for the rest of the movie.

Yes.

But also, I just remember sitting in the circle cinema going, is that really what the

motto is?

Or the slogan in this case, I guess it would be.

Yeah.

Virginia is for lovers?

Why?

Yeah.

What is so romantic about Virginia?

Well, let me jump to that and just tell you quickly that Virginia is for lovers.

Tourism and travel slogan of the U.S.

Commonwealth of Virginia dates back to 1969, Summer of Lovers.

And it is an on-the-nose.

It's an often imitated part.

That stuff that gets, that's something that gets riffed off of

in all kinds of other ways.

And in fact, in 2012, Thank You Wikipedia, Advertising Age magazine, your favorite magazine, John Hardman.

Honestly, I write a column.

You know what I mean?

Hi, I'm a PC.

I'm still here.

PCs are for lovers.

Advertising Age-rated Virginia.

They named it one of the most iconic ad campaigns in the past 50 years.

It is on the sign when you drive into Virginia.

You'll see welcome to Virginia.

Virginia is for lovers.

You'll see it on their license plates.

And if you care, the Martin Company, which was a team that was headed up by David Martin, George Woltz of Martin and Woltz, they were from Richmond.

They created the slogan.

They got the account in 68.

I guess it took them a year to come up with.

It was introduced in 1969.

It was more about history.

So it was actually originally, Virginia is for history lovers.

If you're at the beach, you'll see an ad that says, Virginia is for beach lovers.

If you're in the mountains, you might see an ad, Virginia is for mountain lovers.

Right.

This approach was eventually discarded.

They said, listen, we need something that encapsulates the whole state, not piece by piece of Virginia.

We need to unite Virginia.

What if we just dropped all those qualifiers and decided to say Virginia is for lovers?

Why not say Virginia is for enthusiasts?

That would be more accurate, or Virginia is for Virginia wonks.

Because lovers is.

I don't know when they started using wonks.

I truly doped.

We're going to have to get to the bottom of that.

Please, Please, if you know the history of the word wonk, please tell us.

And I really hope it doesn't turn out to be something that we all regret because it's offensive in some way, as many things are.

Right.

Well, let's say what it this way.

Not as hypocritical as Virginia is for lovers under Governor Glenn Young, who's repealing protections for transgender students.

And of course, Virginia is also.

the site of the very famous case, Loving versus Virginia.

And many people did think that that was a very ironic thing for Virginia Virginia to adopt.

And if you don't know, that was a Supreme Court case that allowed for marriage between races.

Correct.

Yeah.

So Virginia is for lovers.

I think the original slogan was Virginia is for heterosexual lovers of the same race, preferably married.

Yeah, yeah.

And fucking is optional.

It's got a complicated history.

Now I understand.

It was for people who liked beaches and history.

Yeah, and mountains from time to time.

Yeah.

It's not particularly, my experience of it was not that it was particularly erotic either.

Like, if you had said Hawaii is for lovers or the honeymoon state,

I could understand that.

Yeah.

And West Virginia is definitely for fucking.

Massachusetts?

Fucking optional.

So,

so again, complicated state, also another nickname, mother of presidents.

Thanks to the birthplace of Mississippi's slogan is mother of presidents.

Shut up already about this state.

You know what Mississippi's slogan is?

Miss me with that.

Say it.

Mother of presidents.

Miss me with that.

Mother of presidents.

It is.

Here, I'm going to name the presidents that came from Virginia.

Virginia.

George Washington.

Yes.

Thomas Jefferson.

Yes.

James Madison, the fourth president of the United States.

March 16th, 1751.

Deceased in Montpelier, Virginia, age 85, 1836.

Mother of presidents.

He lived a long time for back then.

Yeah, and you know what?

They called him Little Jem, James Madison.

Know why?

Short dude, 5'4.

5'4 ⁇ , not tall.

Short king.

That was his nickname.

There you go, Little Jem.

Also, John Wilkes Booth was briefly president.

Mother of assassins.

Having shot dead Abraham Lincoln saying six semper tyrannis.

Oh, yeah, he did.

Now, that motto had to have preceded John Wilkes Booth assassinating Abraham Lincoln.

It definitely did.

The seal and the motto were adopted in, I think, 1788.

I know we're jumping around a lot, but I do want to

talk about the state seal.

You're talking about that.

Yeah, I got to talk about the state seal.

It's another seal, not unlike the flag when I had to read all of the information about the flag of Rhode Island.

The complexity of the seal of Virginia is robust.

The question about the name Virginia is lost to history.

There is speculation that it was named for the Virgin Queen Elizabeth,

that it was named for being this untouched, quote-unquote, virgin territory,

but may also be related to an Algonquin phrase, Windangakoa, or Windgenkon, or the leader's name of the tribe, Wenjina, or Wingina, as heard by these Brits who were investigating this territory, too, of course.

I think it was named for Virginia Madsen.

It may have been named for my cousin's cousin, Virginia Madsen.

That's right.

She's my cousin's cousin.

If your cousin's cousin is part of the same bloodline and you and your cousin are all from the same set of siblings, as is this cousin, then your cousin's cousin is also your cousin.

Otherwise, it's your cousin-in-law.

I guess it's my cousin's law.

That's not like a second cousin twice removed.

No, it's my

cousin Julian's cousin on Julian's father's side.

So I have no relation

other than through Julian.

But we don't really know why Virginia got its name.

And we know, and I'm so sorry to tell you this, that it was not named after Virginia Madsen.

Oh, man.

It just wasn't.

It just simply wasn't.

It could have been.

There could be a time travel story.

Now I'm listening.

Fucking optional.

Yeah, could be Virginia Madsen's a time lord who

kicked her TARDIS over to Roanoke.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Maybe that would explain the mystery of Roanoke.

I'm sure we've solved it.

I'm sure we've solved it.

All right.

I'm going to jump to the shape.

I know you like to talk about the shape.

I love the shape of the state.

Would you like to describe what you think the state of Virginia looks like?

Well, it kind of looks like a hat.

Or a mountain with peaks and valleys.

I like a hat.

A hat with lots of...

points and I'm going off I'm going off my mentality imagine a hat made to look like a mountain range which I let me finish, many of us have.

It looks to me like a mountain because it has a lot of little crags and valleys, but the bottom, to your point, when you talk about a hat, very flat bottom.

You know,

Freddie Mercury wrote a song about

flat bottom states.

Yep, we'll be riding your way.

Flat bottom states.

To the east, Atlantic Ocean, the Atlantic Ocean, Chesapeake Bay.

To the north, we have the fine state of Maryland.

To the northwest, we have West Virginia,

many people already know broke away from Virginia to be part of the Union when the South seceded in the 1860s.

To due west, you see Kentucky, which was also at one time a part of Virginia,

mother of states,

a little sliver of Tennessee.

So you have the Appalachians, you have the Blue Ridge Mountains that come in kind of south and southwest

into the state.

Beautiful country.

And to the south, we have North Carolina.

And in 1790, Virginia and Maryland ceded portions of their own land to create this District of Columbia that Washington would be the city inside of.

And I actually don't know the reason for this.

So if anyone listening, or if you want to look this up,

but Virginia,

like 50 years later-ish, 60 years later-ish, they got their territory back.

So it was retro-ceded back to Virginia.

So it used to be this square shape that was like equal parts-ish, Maryland and Virginia.

And then Virginia was like, just kidding, we're going to go ahead and take sea

And so that's kind of why the District of Columbia, now, when you look at it on map, sort of looks like half a square because half of it essentially went back to Virginia.

And I don't know.

I thought it was a Masonic Illuminati.

Well, I'm sure it is.

It can be a golden ratio shape.

Being used as a beacon to call down the aliens from the time.

Take your compass and point it.

Yeah, you'll find it creates this other magical shape.

Virginia took that land back.

Yeah.

Huh.

You want to hear something controversial about Virginia?

Yeah.

Or really about West Virginia?

Uh-huh.

The song Country Roads by John Denver is not about West Virginia.

Because he wants to go home via West Virginia, not mama.

It's about Western Virginia, not the state of West Virginia.

Shit.

Oh, shit, right?

Poor West Virginia.

Maybe we'll take that up in the West Virginia when we talk about West Virginia.

That kind of makes me sad for West Virginia.

But we're talking about Virginia.

We might have to talk about it.

And you know what?

We might have to talk to Justin McElroy when we talk about West Virginia because he's got a lot to say.

You're absolutely right.

It looks like a mountain.

It doesn't look like a hat.

Thank you.

In my mind's eye, I always picture it as a hat.

Yeah.

Where the peak of the hat is sort of in the middle.

Yeah.

Like a kind of rumpled, high-peaked hat that Walt Whitman would wear

while composing leaves of grass.

And now it looks more like a mountain with a pronounced long slope on its left-hand side.

Yeah.

And that flat, flat bottom.

Oh, flat bottom stage.

Flat bottom stage.

I just realized that I'm singing from a different queen song

in which they reference fat bottom stage.

We are the flat bottom stage.

I got that far off, but I could have sang the actual flat bottom stage.

We are the

best flat bottom state.

Tommed on stakes.

No time for round bottoms, cause we are the flat.

Chums of the world.

Buddy, you're a flat bottom state, and you got a big peak, but you don't look flagger and you got peaks on your peak and really fat bottom.

We're going to work on that song.

It's going to be

a flag if you got them.

By the end of this, we're going to have an incredible an incredible rendition of what an album steaks what an album we'll have i feel like we're dancing around this seal pretty hard this seal is bananas there is so much representation in the seal it's kind of overwhelming it's one of those again we talked about the sort of freemason uh like my theory of you know people just being like okay hold on i'm world building here right we're gonna have x represent y and then z will come in and of course this will represent and i appreciate that i do i absolutely do appreciate that.

I like wonky stuff.

But this seal,

here's what I'd like you to do.

I'd like you to describe it as a layperson who doesn't know what any of it means.

And then I will try to explain to you what the thing you're looking at is said to represent.

So

I'm looking at the seal as it was standardized in 1912.

And there have been versions of this, but all of them surround a lady in a toga with her foot on the the chest of a dead dude.

The lady in the toga is Virtus,

a Greek character who is representing the genius of the Commonwealth.

And this

woman

representing the Greek character of Virtus,

standing in for the genius of the Commonwealth of Virginia.

Genius, not meaning the smarty pantsness, but the animating idea.

The animating idea, who is also dressed as an Amazon.

Sure.

We got Wonder Woman up in here.

Right.

And what is that?

Female warrior.

A female warrior.

And you point out that that person is standing on someone.

Peace.

Are they holding anything?

What else is happening?

Well,

I'm looking at a spear.

Okay.

Is the spear pointing upward or downward?

Downward.

Remember what we talked about with the arrow in the

offensive.

Meaning peace.

Means peace.

If the spear is down, it means that peace, the battle has already been fought.

And she also, in this one that's on the state flag, she's got a sheathed sword.

Yes, otherwise known as a parazonium.

Right.

I was going to say parazonium.

I know.

I could, it was on the tip of your tongue.

I could see that.

She's got her foot on the chest of this dude who's lying down, vanquished in battle.

I'd love for you to think of him not so much as a dude, but as just the personified form of tyranny.

I know it looks like Patrick Stewart.

I want you to think of Patrick Stewart as the concept of an existence of tyranny itself.

So Patrick Stewart played the Roman general Sejanus and I Claudius.

Is this Sejanus from I Claudius?

I knew you were going to bring I Claudius into this somehow.

Sejanus was a creep, and I dare say, a want to be tyrant.

Okay.

Am I warm?

Am I warm in reading this?

Patrick Stewart, it is.

Certainly, he has failed in his attempt to be a tyrant because Virtus has bested him.

You can even see the fallen crown nearby in, I think, some to all versions of the seal.

And then he himself has a broken chain in his left hand and a scourge in his right.

Can you see those?

Oh, I see the scourge now.

What does a scourge look like?

It's like a cat of ninetales.

It's like a whip.

Yeah, that's not good.

So this dude on the ground represents tyranny.

That's right.

And thus always to tyrants, they get beaten down by

held down

by virtue.

Thus always to tyranny, tyranny is going to get beaten down by this kick-ass Amazon warrior.

Yeah.

with her sword and her spear.

And pose mightily while someone makes a flag.

Just hold that position because I'm making a flag for our new state.

Oh, sorry, Commonwealth.

I mean,

it knew what it wanted.

You know what I mean?

That's a seal that has a strong point of view.

I love seals.

You do?

Yeah.

And I would dare say that Virginia's seal is for seal lovers.

Oh,

I'm a little bit of a sigilographer myself.

I love seals.

My sigilographer.

A sigilographer that's

a enthusiast or studier of seals and symbols.

State seals and symbols specifically.

I guess you must have come into this podcast already knowing that word.

There's another version of this seal, which I guess was used during the Civil War,

where

for some reason, it looks like

tyranny is waking up at the bottom.

No-oh.

Yeah.

You know what?

Don't sleep on tyranny.

Because tyranny is not sleeping on you.

Is that why it was used during the Civil Civil War?

Any moment, you have to be ready

for it to revive itself, and you're going to have to fight it again.

Kicking tyranny in the balls.

I'm all for it.

Stepping on its neck.

Absolutely.

I love it.

Understood.

In the abstract, I love this seal.

In the abstract.

It's unfortunate that John Wilkes Booth chose this as his personal motto while assassinating.

the president of the United States.

That's the problem.

I'm going to say that's going to send it down in the rankings.

Humans are great at creating something in the abstract that is very laudable, could be very beloved to a sigilographer such as yourself.

That may be me misremembering what you said.

No, sigilography is correct.

I'm just saying that in the pure rankings of the motto, when we get to it.

I don't know if I'd be able to separate.

Unfortunately, right, it's associated now.

Yeah.

With a, I dare say, a fairly dark part of our American history.

Yes.

The murder of Abraham Lincoln.

Yes.

Who I'm going to go on record, obviously a flawed human being, product of his times in many ways, but overall it.

Could have been damn worse.

Yeah.

I think you should have been allowed to live.

I think you should have been allowed to live.

Would have liked to have seen that.

I would have liked to have seen what would have come of that.

So this whole idea of taxation without representation, the idea of trying to coordinate your actions to dissolve the relationship that you have to Great Britain, the Virginia Conventions, Virginia's revolutionary leaders are trying to declare Virginia's independence and do so and then adopt George Mason's Virginia Declaration of Rights.

And if that sounds familiar, it is because it is something that another Virginian, Thomas Jefferson, paid very close attention to.

Stole from.

Stole from and went ahead and just sort of lifted that and it became a part of the Declaration of Independence of the United States.

But I say George Mason was the original chat GPT.

I'm saying he's the original Chat GPT.

You gave him a prompt.

Give me some rights.

Yeah.

He's like, well, here's the Virginia Declaration of Rights.

Yeah, I'll take this, this, and this.

Exactly.

Well, let me ask you this.

What

city would you imagine is the largest in Virginia?

I know you're thinking about it because you think it must be a trick question, and it is.

For me, it was a trick question.

Trying to think of all the cities in Virginia that I know.

Yeah.

Virginia Slims, is that a city?

Might as well be.

The iconic Virginia City.

Virginia Sleeps, Virginia.

I don't know.

The capital is Richmond.

Yeah.

Arlington is right near DC.

Yeah.

I'll say Arlington.

Virginia Beach.

Virginia Beach.

Virginia Beach sort of represents, you know, the very important port that was key in all kinds of trade,

most of it ugly.

And then also

the Hampton Roads.

Huge, historically important port, and in the early days of the colonies, for shipping, of course, for slavery.

And it also became a major military port for the Navy in the area of Hampton Roads.

So I thought that was really interesting.

That Virginia Beach would not have expected that to be the kind of most populous area.

What is Virginia Beach all about?

You went there.

I went there, and what I remember is there were, I did see a ton of Navy kids.

I saw a ton of young people who were sailor suits.

They were not wearing their well, some of them were wearing their sailor suits, some of them were wearing

more children wearing sailor suits.

I mean, it's kind of gone out of style.

Shirley Temple, please.

You know what I mean?

Bring it back, curls.

Yeah.

Curls Curls and...

My son isn't 12 anymore.

I can't make him wear a little sailor suit.

I definitely felt the military presence for sure.

And I was there to do a convention.

So there were also a bunch of nerds.

It was a wonderful turnout of queer folks, but I don't know that they were from Virginia Beach.

They may have just come in from.

other areas like Arlington

and Richmond.

But it was a very pretty coastline.

I walked, you know, kind of up and down the beach itself and it was very pleasant.

Lots of kind of more affordable hotels and more affordable restaurants and stuff.

It felt more like a working-class place to get away from.

I love affordable hotels.

Well, Virginia is for lovers of affordable hotels.

Virginia is for lovers of beaches, affordable hotels.

The one burger joint I went that I thought was really good, and there was a girl who was a singer-songwriter singing and playing.

I said, she's great.

There we go.

There's a little bit of Brooklyn that I'm.

There's a slice of life.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, just a wonderful slice of life.

What's the stuff there?

The state stuff?

The state stuff in Virginia, we've got a pretty good grouping here.

Some of those, some of the...

Wait a minute, I remember something.

You do?

I know what the state bird is.

You do?

I think it's the Northern Cardinal.

It is.

Why do you know that?

Because we were talking about it last time because there was a cardinal singing outside the window.

It's a northern cardinal.

Is that the pair of cardinals that you have that come through your yard?

I don't know if they're from Virginia, but they're northern cardinals for sure.

No.

Then they're not.

No, no, as you know, Virginians are very hoody-tweaty.

They would that would be the first time.

Isn't it ironic that the state bird is the northern cardinal, the capital of the Confederacy?

Yeah, cardinals are among the top birds.

What is it about them that you love, especially?

Well, first of all, you know what they are when you see them, you know what I mean?

Easily identifiable, understood.

It's easily identifiable.

Yeah, no, they're great looking.

I understand why it's a state bird of so many different states.

Yeah, it comes up a lot.

I think it's going to come up again.

What if I asked you to guess what the state tree of Virginia?

Tobacco plant.

Should be?

American dogwood.

American dogwood.

American dogwood.

Okay.

Opposed to the flower, which is.

Say flower of Virginia.

The tobacco flower.

American dogwood.

Whoa.

You've misled me.

No tobacco anywhere.

No tobacco mention.

Wild stuff.

In the state symbols.

You know what it should, the state flower should be because of George Washington's love of this particular plant.

The cherry blossom.

No, I'm talking about marijuana.

Oh, man.

I thought it was about him chopping down a cherry tree.

No, that's a myth.

To plant a marijuana.

That's exactly right.

Yes.

I cannot tell a lie.

Yeah.

I guess I did know that was a myth.

A lot of myths come out of Virginia, including that one.

Sure.

That's a great example, actually.

And by the way, I don't know if George Washington smoked dank bowls.

It's just something that I remember from the movie Dazed and Confused.

Got it.

Well, I'm sure that it's true then.

Okay.

the

state bat.

Oh, wow.

Now we're talking.

First time I've seen a bat come up in state symptoms.

There's a state bat.

The Virginia big-eared bat.

I gotta look at this bat.

The Virginia big eared bat.

Big eared bat.

Whoa, they were not joking about the ears.

They have really big ears.

Okay, look.

Virginia.

You're starting to come around.

And they're very small.

They have big ears, but they're not big creatures.

They're really little.

Small bats, big ears.

small bats you know what they say small bats big ears they eat uh insects and mostly small moths

i love a bat i do love a bat bats are terrific creatures they really are they're really safe the bats make homes for the bats save the bees yeah put a bat house next to a bee house lot of specific instruction don't put them next to each other a lot of specific instruction about how to mount a bat house where to mount it and how to attract bats look it up it's very cool we have a bat house have not put it up yet state dog Dogwood.

You would think.

The dogwood.

The wooden dog.

You would think the dogwood.

I would not.

Would.

American foxhound.

American foxhound.

Controversy, some controversy there.

You see, this is what I'm talking about.

Their emulation of the British aristocracy.

And they were probably doing some fox hunting.

Fox hunting's still popular in the state of Virginia.

Boy, oh, boy.

With some controversy around it, as you could very well imagine.

I am not interested in foxes.

There are horses down there, too.

Hunted.

That's horsey country.

we're going to talk about horses in a second my friend horses freshwater fish the virginia perch the brook trout okay some of you may have gone to school with a brook trout shout out to brook trout

insect

tiger swallowtail butterfly i thought they picked a good one it's a good looking butterfly

most butterflies were these suggested by school children because there ought to be a lot i didn't see a reference to school children here but i and maybe they shut that down too quickly virginia was like oh i don't think we're going to be here well i don't believe that you'll be be petitioning.

No, not tiny people who want to be a petition.

We don't live in a democracy.

We live in a republic.

That's right.

That's right.

I want you to rest assured that there is a state salamander.

It's the red salamander.

I didn't know that there, I guess I don't, I realized, I don't know that much about all the different types of salamanders.

I'm googling red salamander now, and it better be red in color.

Wow.

It does not let me down.

The

saltwater fish, don't worry, there is also a a saltwater fish, an additional freshwater fish.

I was concerned.

Striped bass.

Okay.

That's the now, like, this is the thing about Virginia.

It's like, it has moments of real inspiration and then it has moments of just being like,

well, you know me, I'm perfectly bored.

I'm going to skip the rest of it because I want to hear from people if they feel that me not telling you what the state snake is is troublesome.

And if you have a good story about the state snake,

I'm going to leave that.

I'm going to leave that to our our wonderful listener.

But I want to assure you that they do have a state drink.

In fact, they have two.

Oh, all right.

Would you like to guess?

They are different from one another.

Are they alcoholic, either of them?

One of them is.

One of them is.

And it's obviously it's not the mint julep.

That's Kentucky.

Nope.

It's think straighter than that.

Think that's think it's not a mix of anything.

Is it rye whiskey?

Yeah.

George Washington's rye whiskey.

George Washington's rye whiskey.

For the other one, what would you say is the most diametrically opposite in most ways of rye whiskey?

George Washington's for loco.

George Washington's CBD tonic.

Milk.

Milk.

One point when I was taking American history, like seventh grade history or whatever, we were in the diary of one of these creeps who owned a plantation or something.

And he would talk about what he would have for breakfast.

And he said, this morning I supped on milk.

Ew.

And I was like, that's it?

That was your old breakfast?

Supped on milk.

I don't care for that.

That sentence really bothered me.

Does George Washington love to sup on milk and then smoke a dank bowl, which is not a thing?

Damn straight.

Okay, there are a number of Virginia state songs.

Are any of them cool songs or are they all

well?

Let's find out.

One of them is called Our Great Virginia.

No.

That concerns me.

Do they have any contemporary songs?

A popular one, Sweet Virginia Breeze.

That sounds kind of promising.

Sweet Virginia Breeze.

Sweet Virginia Breeze.

I love that.

Sweet states.

Mother of presidents.

Mother of Presidents, if it isn't Sweet Virginia Breeze.

Hello, gentlemen.

I woke up this morning.

The wind blowing across my face.

And I just had to look up above and thank somebody for this place.

Because it must have been thinking about me

when it planted that very first dark tree.

It's where I wanna be, living in the sweet Virginia breeze.

Take me out to the concert.

I get it.

That's like somebody who wanted to do a cross.

That's Robin Thompson, two B's.

Robin.

Robin Thompson.

sounds like a a tribute to both bob seger and van morrison

filtered filtered through the chamber of commerce

for virginia yeah robin thompson is a singer-songwriter passed away in 2015 based in richmond virginia there you go he wrote sweet virginia breeze during rehearsal for a concert at virginia commonwealth university so he really just dashed it off there in 1978 yes he was in an early early Bruce Springsteen band called

Steel Mill.

No.

Also known as On the Nose.

No.

That's what it says.

Wow.

But hang on one second.

Uh-oh, uh-oh.

Here comes a controversial revelation.

He was born in Boston, Massachusetts.

No, I cannot believe it.

It's as if we designed this for John Hodge.

Robin Thompson.

He was born in Massachusetts.

He didn't.

He wasn't old when he passed away.

66.

I'm sorry to hear that.

R.I.P.

Robin.

R.P.

Robin Thompson.

Robin Thompson.

So I'm just going to leave us with

the Chincoteague ponies.

The famous Chincoteague horses are actually not on Chincoteague, but on nearby Assateague Island.

These are wild ponies

that every...

I was once a year, but I'm now.

Yeah, okay.

So there's the famous pony swim, which is this multi-day big tourist draw in which the

organization known as the Saltwater Cowboys round up all of these wild ponies that exist on Assatigue.

Once again, lost to history, unknown why there are all these wild ponies on Assatigue, but the rumor,

the legend is that a Spanish ship crashed on or near Assatig Island and some horses were on the ship and they

continue to live.

The reason they're there is no one has gone out and killed them yet.

Yes.

And in fact, they get rounded up to be checked on by veterinarians to make sure that they're okay.

To keep the herd size reasonable for the island, they do auction off a pony or two the last Thursday of every July.

Okay, so we're recording this.

It hasn't happened yet.

Maybe we can make a field trip.

Oh my God, I would love to go.

These are cute ponies.

Are you kidding me?

I would love to go to the Pony Island.

Pony Island Express.

These are cute beach ponies, and they're just a little shaggy.

And they love to swim.

Now, there are two different herds of those horses.

Funnily enough, they are separated by a fence at the Maryland-Virginia line.

So, the Maryland herd is managed by the Maryland National Park, it was managed by the National Park Service, but the Virginia herd is owned by the Chincoteague Volunteer Fire Company.

So, they purchase a grazing permit from the National Fish and Wildlife Service every year, and it allows them to maintain that herd of something, I think it's around 150 ponies.

And then they do, they control the herd size so that you see that auction happen.

The saltwater cowboys move them

from Assateague to Chincoteague Island.

Yes.

And they look tame, but they are wild, so we need to be reminded: like, if you and I do go there, we can't just assume they're tame.

We need to treat them like the magnificent wild ponies that they are.

Apparently, the inspiration for a children's novel, Misty of Chincoteague.

Oh.

By Marguerite Henry.

Is Misty a pony or a person who lives with ponies?

Okay.

The book was inspired by the real-life story of the Beeb family and their efforts to raise a Philly born to a wild horse, Misty.

Misty.

Of Chinkoteague.

And apparently there are quite a few of them.

Misty of Chincoteague, Seastar, Orphan of Chinkoteague.

Oh.

Misty the Wonder Pony.

Stormy.

Misty's Foal.

Not since the Anne of Green Gables series have I been so.

The last one is Misty's Twilight.

That sounds like a good one.

Oh, no, Misty's Twilight.

A little sad.

No.

So we're going to have to rank this motto in Chincoteague ponies, of course.

Of course.

It's a given.

Now, we didn't really do this with Massachusetts, but we also, from time to time, have been known to suggest better mottos.

So, I don't know, depending on how you land, how we land with Six Semper Tyrannis, we could also potentially think of a pony-related motto, and that would be fine with me.

And we also have Virginia's for Lovers, which you scoff at.

All right, I have an alternate motto, which is Misty is real.

How about Virginia?

As real as Misty.

As real as Misty.

We make the ponies swim.

Virginia.

Virginia.

Let's not talk about tobacco or slavery.

Virginia.

Virginia.

Swim, ponies.

Swim.

Exclamation mark.

Out of 10 chinkate ponies, 10 chinkate ponies being the.

Semper Tyrannus is the one we're running.

Six.

Semper Tyrannis.

Well, look, I have a number in my head.

But you can never think of this motto again without thinking of

the murder of Abraham Lincoln.

Yes.

So that will knock knock it down a few.

So I'm

doing that math currently in my head.

You know what?

I got to get a calculator.

Oh, boy.

All right.

We'll take a quick break and we will be right back.

Back in 45 days.

All right.

I'm ready with mine.

Let's say it.

Wait, one?

Yeah.

Two, three,

four.

See, I was solid five.

You were?

Yeah.

And then you dropped down to three?

But then I thought of the brains of Abraham Lincoln splattered all over.

Oh, I know, I know.

And I thought I was being a little generous with five.

I think that is.

I think, honestly, thus always to tyranny.

Yeah.

This is not a

bad concept.

Right.

When you use it for murder.

I know, I know.

I'll knock it down to a three.

I'm happy to bring it down.

You know what?

The motto should be.

Let me see if I can.

Motto should be fruit from the poisoned tree.

Oh, that's very good.

Fruit from the poisoned dogwood.

Oh, fruit from the poisoned dogwood.

Dogwood flower from the poisoned dogwood tree.

Too long.

You were doing just fine before you added that.

But only under liberty and in peace we seek justice.

Because I feel like...

How about the Latin for you have to earn your motto?

Or you don't deserve this motto.

You don't deserve the motto.

I mean,

Virginia knows what Virginia did.

And I'll tell you what, it's a reminder to all of us that people tend to think they're right.

Virginia is a beautiful country full of wonderful people.

But they know what they did when they made John Wilkes Booth, who, by the way, is from Maryland originally.

Again, they did a lot of other stuff.

That whole cavalier culture, let's just say they were being a little cavalier about things

by imagining a fallen aristocracy and stoking resentment.

And for those of you who are in the world, and a culture of victimhood and noble lost caused.

I'm getting a lot of scorn on the scorn-emeter from across from me.

I do want to give a shout out to all of those of you who love Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

They're pretty hot dogs.

I don't like them, but I like that.

Are they Virginian dogs?

I mean, they're Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

Like they were bred by royalty, by King Charles.

That's why they're called King Charles.

Spaniels.

And the problem is that they're like every...

It's not that I don't like them, friends, and for those of you who haven't, but you know, they're overbred.

And so they have like so many problems and like their head, they get like encephalitis and stuff.

Right, so sad.

Okay,

and weirdly, and I know this is going to sound like a surprise from what I just said, I do breed them, so I will begin.

It's like it's like a dope dealer.

Don't smoke your own dope, you know what I mean?

I don't, I personally don't care for them, but I do deal them.

I won't smoke my own dope, I'll smoke the first president's dope, if you please, while I'm riding around on a chinkoteague pony, holding one of my cavalier King Charles with a trail of 10 swimming ponies with dogs on them behind me.

Nine, I guess.

Ten ponies, ten dogs.

That's all I ask.

Hodgman, we've touched on just about everything from this Commonwealth, but on ePluribus Motto, we also love to get perspective from people who call these places home.

When we come back, we talk with a certain Max Funster about Virginia.

Up next on ePluribus Motto.

Hi, ePluribus Motto folks.

My name is Dan, and I'm calling from Virginia.

And as you know, our motto is one of the more famous ones, Six Semper Tyrannis.

We do have a pretty badass flag with the

lady stabbing the guy through the chest with a spear.

That's pretty cool.

But, you know, I'm sure by tyrants, they meant people telling us not to enslave Africans or something like that.

That kind of fun tyranny.

Yeesh.

Considering all this, you know, ugly history, I'm in my 40s.

And in my lifetime, we've made so much progress socially.

And I think that progress is accelerating.

We've taken down a zillion of the Confederate statues, aka second place trophies.

We've renamed a bunch of schools.

And even, you know, today, the state legislature is constantly blocking anti-trans and other discriminatory bills that a couple of fringe dopes keep pushing in the legislature.

So anyway, because of all that history and plus the whole John Wilkes Booth shouting it as he killed Lincoln thing,

that little factoid, I think that Virginia should change our motto from six semper tyrannis to

Yeah, we know we're working on it.

I think that fits who we are as a Commonwealth much more.

Say you like video games, and who doesn't?

I mean, some people probably don't.

Okay, but a lot of people do.

So say you're one of those people and you feel like you don't really have anyone to talk to about the games that you like.

Well, you should get some better friends.

Yes, you could get some better friends, but you could also listen to TripleClick, a weekly podcast about video games hosted by me, Kirk Hamilton.

Me, Maddie Myers, and me, Jason Schreier.

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We'll show you new things to love about games and maybe even help you find new friends to talk to about them.

Triple click.

It's kind of like we're your friends.

Find us at maximumfun.org or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Jesse Thorne, the founder of Maximum Fun, and I have a special announcement.

I'm no longer embarrassed by my brother, my brother, and me.

You know, for years, each new episode of this supposed advice show was a fresh insult, a depraved jumble of erection jokes, ghost humor, and, frankly, this is for the best, very little actionable advice.

But now, as they enter their twilight years, I'm as surprised as anyone to admit that it's gotten kind of good.

Justin, Travis, and Griffin's witticisms are more refined, like a humor column in a fancy magazine.

And they hardly ever say Bazinga anymore.

So, after you've completely finished listening to every single one of all of our other shows, why not join the McElroy Brothers every week for My Brother, My Brother and Me.

Welcome back to ePluribus Motto.

Dimitri Pompey is one of the hosts of the Max Fun podcast Eurovangelist about Europe's biggest song contest.

He's also called several states home, including New Hampshire, California, and Virginia, where he lived before and lives now.

I've jumped around a couple states in my time, but much like a black hole, Virginia always pulls me back in when I try to escape.

What a pleasant characterization.

I don't want to be cruel to Virginia.

Virginia has given me a lot of great things.

I'm sure I can tell you about how I got here in the first place.

I don't want to get ahead of your line of questioning.

So, you know, if you.

Oh, I would love to hear how you got here in the first place.

Here,

Yeah, you're not, you're not here.

You should be.

This is a fun thing.

That's how empathy.

I'm so empathetic.

My mirror neurons are so strong.

I actually think I'm in Virginia right now.

And now my therapist's like, do you see Janet in the room with you right now?

Yeah, it's a whole thing.

But I grew up in the great state of New Hampshire, which I will proudly represent on a future edition of EPLURVIS Mono.

When it came time to look for colleges, a lot of my high school contemporaries were staying in state.

And look, there are some wonderful colleges in New Hampshire, but I just had the idea that I wanted to go elsewhere.

And when I was a senior in high school, I wanted to be two things at once.

I wanted to be a senator because I'm an idiot.

And I wanted to be the greatest classical saxophone player of all time because I was an idiot.

So when you're looking at schools that have a great political science program and a great music program, right in the middle of that very small list is james madison university in harrisonburg virginia i didn't even think to look there until a friend of mine gave me the brochure for the for the college showed me the band and the political science program and honestly the tiebreaking thing that made me really consider it the school's colors are gold and purple and purple is my favorite color and what a purple it was pushed it over the edge for those of you who are in charge at colleges of choosing what those colleges colors are going to be Yes, it does make a difference.

Sometimes it makes the difference.

I traveled 500 miles south because of the color purple.

When you think about what, like when you were in LA, for example, and you were thinking about things in Virginia that you missed, if anything, what would come to mind for you?

The first thing I missed more than anything else, I missed my dear Virginian friends.

You know, this is a wonderful place full of wonderful people.

I'm not saying LA isn't, but there's a type of kindness in Virginia that is very rare in this world in which we live.

There are people who will go out of their way to, you know, give you a discount on the deer they shot.

Or they'll, you know,

this is true.

This has happened before.

I was, I was one time, I was in a gas station and I was asking for directions and a bee flew in the guy's mouth.

The guy who was giving me directions, the bee stung him and he kept giving me directions while the bee was stinging him into his mouth.

It was amazing.

Did he also try to give you a discount on the deer he shot?

That was somewhat different.

That's a different person, but this guy would have.

If he had deer, he would have.

He would have.

Oh, do you want some deer?

He would have asked me.

Now I can't breathe anymore.

I'm going to have to find an EpiPen, but I shot a beautiful deer.

Okay.

Let me ask you this.

Do you feel that Virginia is for lovers?

Honestly, yes.

And the first time I came here, I would not have thought that.

But my time,

I came to Virginia at a very interesting time in Virginia's history.

When I first got to Virginia, it was a lot less opening and friendly.

You know, it was an interesting time to be here.

It was very dogmatic and it felt very insular.

But as I've lived here, as I've watched more people come to this place, as I've watched different kinds of people come to this place, I've watched the state not abandon its values, but open them up to other people.

You know, it was radical to watch that transformation and it's still ongoing.

They, they have really taken Virginia's for Lovers, which used to just be a marketing thing.

Yeah.

And now they've made it their own.

They actually went through a statewide citizen by citizen effort to make that real to the point where I think this is a very, very wonderful place to live.

I keep trying to get my parents to move here.

You know, it's

a great place to be.

And they've really embodied that.

That's absolutely wonderful.

Are you familiar with the official because you're right, many people think of Virginia's for lovers before or in place of the official state motto, which it shan't surprise anyone?

Of course, if you listen to the rest of this episode with Hodgman and me, you know it's Latin and you know that it is six simper tyrannis thus always to tyrants.

We have the tyrant being stood on by Virtus, I think, if I'm remembering, the genius of the Commonwealth, the struggle, victory over tyranny.

It's one of those mottos that for me, at first blush sounds violent, but then

you sit with it for a minute and you're like, well, that's true that I don't like tyrants.

I have your feelings on the motto.

I like it on its face because, because, duh, that's awesome and it's really cool.

But also, if you want to take a look at it in a less literal sense, I think that what the motto is saying is very relevant to our times.

Yeah.

You know, dark days are, dark days come and they stay and they make your life difficult and you worry and you have anxiety and you're afraid.

But it's an optimistic motto because it says the bad times will end.

There will be light again, you know?

And that really does mean a lot to me.

It is a cool motto, but then it's also a very meaningful motto because it sometimes it's hard to remember that everything is cyclical.

It's hard to remember that darkness is not the only default setting for the world in which we live.

There is light again, and that's what the motto is saying.

You know, those who perpetuate the difficult times in which we live, they're not forever.

What is forever is the fact that change is coming.

And that's a beautiful sentiment that honestly means a lot to me.

I absolutely love that.

And I think when you put it that way, it actually works very hand in glove with Virginia is for lovers because it's like, how do you battle evil when you don't have love?

You can't.

That is such a huge component, if not the only component that love overcomes.

Don't make me start quoting Wrinkle in Time, but you can't hate a hater who hate who's always going to hate you more or hate the world more, but you can love each other.

So you've convinced me.

You've convinced me.

Oh, Dimitri, thank you so much for spending some time with me to get to know the state of Virginia a little bit better from somebody who's on the inside.

I've learned so much.

We've created a state cryptid.

We've created three official state cryptids, yet to be official, pending, pending.

And you are delighted to enjoy.

And I hope that everyone is listening to the podcast that you are proud to do with your two co-hosts on Maximum Fun.

Let's get that name one more time.

That is the Year Evangelist podcast.

And I'll tell you.

The Year Evangelist podcast, everybody.

If you do not know anything about the Eurovision Song Contest, you don't have to.

That's what we're here for.

We are here to tell you why this contest, which has been going on since 1956, is one of the most important

events in the world.

Come on down to your evangelist.

We'll treat you real nice.

Soon we'll have a full chat with Dimitri up on Max Fund's bonus content feed.

So you Max Fund members should keep an eye out for that soon.

John Hodgman,

any final words on the Commonwealth of Virginia?

Hey, Virginia, don't be like John Wilkes booth.

Oh boy.

Richmond, had a great time on your shores.

Also, beautiful river, beautiful rapids.

Merchmere Music Hall, I love you.

Yeah, some great, some great stuff.

stuff jamal buoy follow me on twitter even though i'm not even there i love all the wonderful things about virginia shout out to you sorry you're not perfect like massachusetts good god good sorry i have to go strangle myself sorry you're not the hub of the universe

This is the end of this episode of ePluribus Motto.

The show is hosted by John Hodgman, along with myself, Janet Varney, and it is a production of Maximum Fun.

The show was edited and produced by Julian Burrell, along with senior producer Laura Swisher.

Our music was created by Zach Burba, and ePluribus Motto artwork by Paul Paul G.

Hammond.

We'd love to hear from you and your thoughts on Massachusetts, Virginia, any of the other states we've visited so far.

You can find the show on TikTok and Instagram at ePluribus Moto and via email at emailpluribusmato at maximumfun.org.

Next week, it's John Hodgman's turn to present us South Carolina, which is full of a lot of cities to love.

A lot of fun gets had in Charleston.

Maybe too much fun.

Maybe too much fun.

And some ghost tours and some cobblestones.

And it's just charming.

I'm going to say, officially, it's charming as fuck.

Until next time, remember our motto: Virginia is for lovers of bats with big ears.

Maximum Fun, a worker-owned network of artist-owned shows, supported directly by you.