The Retirement Fallacy: Embracing Fulfillment Now | Derek Coburn

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So, I got a question for you.

Hit me.

And we can talk later if you don't have time.

So, do you think

this is relative to

your TED talk, what you've been going through in your life, what I've been going through in my life in a similar way?

This is like an existential question that I've been pondering for a while.

Do you think it is possible to play a different game than the game that most people are playing

without winning the primary game first?

You and I got a lot.

We had money in the bank.

We had like time.

We had things that we had on our side that allowed us to sort of like go through all that shit to emerge on the other side, like wanting to do something different.

That I don't know that like a single dad with a nine to six job probably couldn't have done it the way that I did it.

Yeah, I think, so I think there's two sides to that.

So one,

I have both had the money and not had the money at different times.

Yep.

Right.

So I felt it both ways.

Here's where I kind of come out on this.

I honestly don't know if you can do it the way everyone does it and truly be successful and happy anymore.

I think even the people that choose that path, I don't think they're happy with that path.

I think they've just made a compromise to find harmony in their life and maybe another place.

Right.

Like I really love doing 100 mile runs and being at my kids' sports games.

So I'm going to work this, you know, nine to five type job that, you know, maybe I can do well, but don't particularly care for,

but it allows me to do the other things that I have in my life.

I think, I think if you, if you consciously make that decision, and that was a big part of my, of, of where the TED Talk came from, if that's a conscious decision, more power to you.

Yeah.

I think where people really, and I think this is where a lot of people are finding themselves today is

they didn't consciously make that decision.

Right.

Now they're flailing and searching and grasping and chasing every $27 faceless YouTube video course they can buy to try to find something that's fulfilling in their life or they turn to drugs or alcohol or sex or they you know

you know whatever whatever other destructive thing they can do

because they weren't consciously making decisions they were they were following a path that they thought they were supposed to follow that being said

I think you have to find your way of doing things and it's the only way to do it.

I think if you've already made it, it's substantially easier because of the transfer that you get, the transfer expertise.

So if you are very successful at one thing and then you pick a second thing that you want to be very successful at, a lot of the trust, respect that you get in the other will be transferred over and that makes it a lot easier to jump.

However, I do think that if you're doing something unique and you give yourself an appropriate timeframe to be successful, I think you can do it on the side.

I absolutely think you can.

I think what people miss on that is

I think what people miss is they set

expectations like it's the only thing they're doing.

They have plenty of cash in the bank to ride through the downtimes.

When that person, it may only take them six months to a year to get where they want to be.

For the person who's doing it as a side hustle or isn't capitalized, it might take you four years or five years to get there, and you need to be okay with that.

In a crude crude laboratory in the basement of his home.

One, I love the way that you're approaching this topic.

Like, I think it's fucking incredible.

I think this is a topic that no one is talking about, yet everyone is dealing with.

A la the conversation we just had in the green room.

Yep.

Like, there are, I think this is a real existential problem.

And, like,

you know, I know part of the catalyst for writing this book was your dad and the issues that he went through, the health stuff that he went through.

But

like, where did this come from in your own life?

Like, was this something you were dealing with and you felt like you had to get through this and then you wanted to write it?

Or are you dealing with it right now?

Like, like, what in your life was like, this is something I got to put the work in necessary to write a book about?

You know, I started.

Writing the book.

I had the idea to write the book in 2017.

And that sort of just stemmed from, like, I was a fine, I've been a financial advisor for almost 27 years.

I sold my practice to a private equity company in 2019, had an earn out, have my clients, handful of clients I've been working with for a long time that I want to continue to work with.

But I'm not really looking to.

grow my practice anymore.

And when I started writing the book, none of that was on the table.

And I was like, I'm going to write a book as a way to attract more clients for my practice.

And it was going to be written for people that have like, you know,

minimal investable assets of, of, you know, half a million or $500, $5 million

and more.

And then I was approached out of nowhere about selling the practice.

Then COVID happened.

And my father got sick in the meantime.

And because I got some money and I got some space and I got to, you know, really kind of take a step back and look at my life, I was like, oh, I don't need more clients.

I don't want more clients.

I get to come back.

to this book and focus on writing it for a broader audience in a way that will hopefully be helpful to a lot more people than if I would have just plugged along and tried to write a book that was going to be a fancy business card to grow my practice.

Yeah.

But I was having these conversations with clients since like 2000, you know, 2005, 2010.

I always thought it was very interesting that like when people meet with a financial advisor, financial advisors don't say, do you want to retire?

They say, what age do you want to retire?

We're automatically opted into this thing.

And most people say, I don't really know.

And they say, well, why don't we just go with 65 because that's what everyone else picks and people say sure and then they get this number that feels really big and unattainable it stresses them out it causes them to skip workouts and skip family dinners and and have less sleep and and um and and really take them away from where they want to be and what we're seeing is that a lot of people are getting there they're finding this retirement thing is not what they were promised it would be they don't feel the way they thought they were going to feel and they're going back to work and so i'm just trying to get the attention of people well before this point to help them realize that as long as you don't hate what you do if you can find some work that you enjoy doing ideally you're going to do it longer than you think and because of that you don't have to save as much which means you now have more money and more time that you get to spend right now on the people and things that are most important to you yeah

I was really intrigued by the research in the book around like where retirement came from and how new of a concept this actually is.

Like, you know, what, like the first retirement fund started, I think you, I think they're in your book you say 1883 with american express or something like that like it's i mean that's not that that's 140 years ago 150 years ago like that's not that long ago that we retirement wasn't even a concept wasn't even something that we thought about and now all of a sudden it's like this goal that we're shooting for now one of the things that i think is interesting is

i have never even contemplated the idea of retiring.

Like I can't, I honestly can't even imagine a day where I'm not doing something that is work, right?

It might not be the work I'm doing today.

It might be something different.

But the idea of just like one day turning the computer off and grabbing my mug and my pictures off my desk and like walking out the door and never coming back and just,

I can't even imagine like what that life would look like.

But I think also today, and this is why I think this is so intriguing, is we've been in a very inflationary state the last five plus years.

So the idea too that you're going to be able to get to a retirement age and know what...

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What that looks like, like what you actually need, and that you're, like, how do you even plan for that because of how crazy inflation has been?

It used to be like, what, three, four percent?

And, you know, there was some calculation.

But, you know, when you're looking at years of 12, 15% inflation, I mean, that has to mess everything up.

Yeah, you know, one of my favorite books of all time is called Stumbling on Happiness by a Harvard professor named Daniel Gilbert.

And this came out 15 years ago, and I don't think he's written anything else since.

But essentially, what he's saying is that we all just do a terrible job of predicting what our future selves are going to want.

And if you think about the assumptions that go into planning for retirement, that everything you just mentioned about inflation is true.

And

that's one component.

We also have to accurately predict what the tax rates are going to be every single year for the next 25 years, what your pre-retirement rate of return is going to be in your portfolio each year, probably,

what your post-retirement average rate of return is going to be, among other things, including what year are you going to die?

What year is your spouse going to die if you're married?

Are your parents in good financial shape and good health?

All of these things that we have to, it's akin to like picking a 10-game parlay on FanDel, right?

And yet, people are walking around living their lives on a daily basis, like they're going to nail it.

And they're making all these choices about how to spend their money and how to spend their time based on all of these things coming true.

And we're going to be wrong about every single one of them.

So the one thing that I do for myself is I have a country club membership.

I like golf.

It's almost like I'm not a big meditator.

I've just never, I can't sit still for that long.

And I just don't, I mean, I get the value of it.

I've done it and I, and I feel better afterwards, but it's just, I found that I'm just not, I'm just not going to slow down and do it.

However,

Going out and hitting a bucket of balls for 45 minutes and just that motion over and over again, I come away with a very similar feeling.

I'm a little active and it really works for me and whatever.

But there's this part of me that is like,

like,

dude, do you deserve, do you deserve to do that?

And I think one of the, what you're really addressing is how to, how to find harmony in our life today and enjoying how we, you know, what we have in front of us today.

as well as setting ourselves up and finding that.

So like when you, when you're talking to someone about this concept,

how do you start that conversation with them?

Because there's a lot of people I think that have my mindset, which is like, you know, that's something I'll, I don't deserve that until I've made it, or I don't deserve that until I hit a certain age, or I don't deserve that until my kids hit a certain age or whatever.

And we kind of, we kind of push our life out into this future, as you said, that we have almost no ability to predict.

Yeah, you know, I think

I always like to start from the money angle because I think people just really do not understand how much flexibility this frees up for them in the short term.

There are so many people walking around that know deep down that they're not going to stop retiring.

And there's even people or stop working.

And there's even some people that know that

consciously that they're never going to stop working, but they're still kind of living their lives

based off the idea that they're going to have this traditional retirement, that they need to save a certain amount of money.

Like when they meet with their financial advisor every year, they're not saying, I'm going to work forever.

They're just going going along with the idea that they have to save this amount of money.

So I share a story about a hypothetical guy named Tony in my book.

And I say, Tony is 45 years old.

He makes $150,000 a year, and he has $150,000 saved up for retirement.

And if Tony wants to retire at 65, using all of the basic assumptions in our industry, 3% inflation, 7% return on his assets until retirement, 6% after, and have him passing away at 95.

If he wants to stop at 65, he has to save $2,400 a month in order to get there, which is about 20% of what he's making, which is a non-starter for most people.

If Tony says, I'm going to work until I'm 75 instead of 65, that number goes from $2,400 a month down to $110 per month.

It goes down by 96%.

If Tony says he'll work until he's 70, five more years, which is, I think, likely to happen based on the number of people that we see re-entering the workforce after they retire, the number goes down to to $600.

It goes down by 75%.

So once I share that with people and they're like, oh yeah, like I've got this extra time and money, I can think about how I'm going to spend it differently.

They feel better going to the driving range.

They feel better taking the vacation.

When I first start working with clients, hardly anyone comes in my office with their hand raised saying, I know I don't want to retire.

So I'll humor them.

I'll ask them questions that they are expecting to be asked.

Like, what are you going to do in retirement?

I'm going to travel the world with my spouse.

And I say, great, when was the last time you two went out on a date together?

And, you know, nine times out of 10, they just sort of look at each other and they don't really know how to answer that question.

Or someone will say, I'm going to play golf five days a week.

Okay, but you haven't been to the gym in four years and you just had your hip replaced.

So when is this going to happen?

And I think what you probably see is the more time that we make for these things now, the more likely it is we're going to be able to continue to do them.

So you go and hit golf balls.

That's That's less time for you to spend on your business, but you come back to your business in a better frame of mind with more clarity, with less stress.

You're being more productive there.

And now you're also more likely to continue your golf habit well, you know, into your older age.

It's so funny, dude, because when you're in your 20s and 30s, like, and probably your 30s is where you start to learn the lesson if you learn it, is like you're just, you're just...

Go, go, go, 24-7.

And I do think there's seasons in your life where you need to press, right?

You need to press beyond what most people are doing however

what i've found is that once you and i think some of that is searching for your zone of genius but once you figure out what your zone of genius is and you can start to monetize that whether it's in a leadership position in a company starting a company you know whatever whatever your place is and you can make some some decent income I've actually found at this point in my career, even though I'm capable of eight, 10, and when I need more hours in a day,

I found that six hours is like if I work more than six hours in a day,

any of the hours past six hours of work, it's like bullshit.

You know, my brain's not functioning.

I'm not, I'm not on top of my game.

I'm not super creative.

Maybe I can answer some emails, but I'm not getting anything done.

And anything that I do create in that time is usually something I'm then going to have to rework or, you know, I'm not super proud of to begin with.

And that's a really tough, it's really tough to like, to downshift.

It feels like a downshift, but it's really not.

Does that make sense?

Like, I mean, and I'm interested in your take on this.

Like, I would rather at this point in my career give six hours that I know are, is A plus work.

And maybe four is A plus and the rest is A minus B plus work, but like

than

eight hours of C plus work or 10 hours of C plus work, which is, I think, what most people

convince they convince themselves they need to do it, even though they're not giving their best effort.

And one, do you agree with this concept?

Two, have you found it?

And three, like, how do you start to reframe your mindset if you are that person that's still trying to grind and still burning yourself out and still not able to find that

those places that you can get a little bit of your life back?

Yeah, you know, I think that the last chapter in my book is called investing in you.

And I essentially say, hopefully I've, I've made a case for why you're going to be working longer.

And if you agree, that means you now have this extra time and money that you get to spend spend on other things.

And, you know, some of the things I mentioned there are taking better care of yourself.

And I think that in our society,

we overemphasize the long-term benefits of things like sleep and diet and exercise.

And we underemphasize the significance and the impact of these things in the short term.

So yes, like sleeping well is very good for you

in terms of how you're going to feel 20 years from now, but it's also extremely good for you in terms of how you're going to feel 20 hours from now.

And i think that the the best person for any of us to be getting advice from about anything is the most optimized version of us and so many of us are are not close to that at all.

So we feel like we have to work all these extra hours to overcompensate for the fact that we're tired, we have brain fog, we're stressed out, we have anxiety, we're not thinking clearly.

And if we were to take a step back and say, you know what, like I'm going to make sure I sleep more and the quality of my sleep is going to be better.

I'm going to make sure that I'm eating a gram of protein per pound of body weight.

And I'm going to make sure that I'm getting exercise every single day.

Yes, it means I have less time that I can work in my business.

But now this is a different version of me, a version of me that I'm really not entirely familiar with.

That

maybe I should give that version of me a shot to be even more productive and to get more things done and create better work done in a shorter amount of time.

You know, it's funny.

We talked a little bit in the green room, and I've mentioned on the show in the past that like 2024 was an interesting year for me personally.

And I was chasing a lot of rabbits, trying to find, you know, cheap ways to feel good and all that kind of stuff.

And like, it was like one day over the summer, you know, I'm probably like four or five months into this maybe dark period of

whatever.

I like woke up one day and I didn't feel good because I hadn't slept well and whatever.

And I literally said, like, I'm trying to feel good.

Like, that's the goal.

Like, I want to feel good.

I want to feel like I have energy.

I want to feel good.

And instead of just doing the things that will make me feel good, eat right, you know, as simply as eat reasonably healthy, go to the gym four or five times a week and get a decent amount of sleep.

I'm not doing any of those things and then masking the shitty feeling with some beers or smoking a joint or whatever.

And you're like,

it just hit me.

I'm like, how fucking stupid am I?

Like, I know the thing, like, these things make me feel good all the time.

These other things over here are these cheap little, you know, three, four-hour hits of feeling good.

Yet

we always seem to move to the cheap, easy.

Like, how, like, and you know, and I'm sure you've had your different struggles with different things at different times, like everyone has.

Like, how do you find we pull ourselves back to, how do we convince ourselves to just feel good versus chasing the feel good with some sort of addiction or, you know, whatever?

You know, for me, you know, I caught my, I too went through a bit of a period.

You know, I'm probably oversimplifying it by calling it a midlife crisis, but that's probably what it was for me for about a year and a half.

And I kind of shook up the snow globe.

Marriage, you know, got rough for the first time, you know, in, you know, almost 20 years.

I was, you know, becoming more short-tempered.

I realized that I found myself saying a lot of things like,

I need to have sex with my wife in order to be the best version of me.

I need to have a glass of wine or a gummy every single night in order to relax.

I need to have nicotine in order to focus.

I need all of these things to feel a certain way.

And by saying that, I'm also saying that I can't feel those things unless I use these methods to get there.

And so I decided, and I don't recommend this, but I decided to sort of quit all of them cold turkey.

Not the sex part with my wife, but worked on the relationship there, but like everything else, like quit cold turkey.

And I, and, um, and it became really difficult, really hard, you know, for several months.

But I started a meditation practice because like you had never worked for me.

And it finally clicked.

I started using like Joe Dispenza's meditations and those worked really well for me.

And I just was able to think about, you know, patterns and why was I constantly needing something to feel a certain way.

And one of the things that emerged for me that I don't think would have emerged if I was constantly just feeding into my uncomfortable feelings with coping mechanisms is I just thought back to when I was younger, man.

You know, I thought back to, and I know you shared some of this in your story and your TED talk,

but when I was in seventh grade, you know, I had an entire classroom of kids chanting, who do we hate?

We hate Derek.

And, you know, I had teachers telling me that I wasn't going to be successful because I wasn't getting good grades.

And I had girls shooting me down and telling me that like I was never going to have a girlfriend.

And I just realized observing this energy in me that my entire life became one big giant, like,

you don't think I can do something?

Watch me.

And, and, and I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater because that energy got me a lot of like amazing things.

Like I really do have,

I'm married to an incredible woman.

Our relationship is in an amazing place right now.

I've got great kids.

I have more friends than most adults I know.

But I was still like feeling that energy.

And it was still like, it was almost like every day I was waking up and my body was like, who are we going to start something with today?

Cause in order to prove someone wrong, you need an adversary.

And

so I've been like working and still am working to unwind that a little bit so that I can show up and create from, not from a place of like wanting to get even with somebody, but from a place of like just creating because it's what I want to do on my terms and for my reasons.

Yeah, that's really interesting.

So I struggle with that same thing because, you know, as you said, it told my story in the TED Talk and other places.

And like, i have very similar right i was the the poor kid from the country actually when i was younger i was like chubby and all this kind of stuff so like my two nicknames coming into high school were nassau which is literally the town that i grew up in as a derogatory term right so like they used it as a derogatory term against me and fat boy those are my two nicknames coming into high school right now thank God that my freshman year I grew six inches uh and all of a sudden I wasn't fat anymore because that solved some of the problems.

But yeah, and then, you know, just my career and different things and like you develop this chip.

And once that chip sits on your shoulder, it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter what the success is.

If you don't, as you said, like start to deal with it and start to understand where it's coming from, it's always there.

Like you have a big win and you feel great for like 30 seconds.

And all of a sudden you're like, okay, who am I?

Who do I going to conquer now?

Like, I need to go conquer something else, someone else.

I need to prove someone else wrong.

And I struggle with that even today because

I just, I find it to be such powerful fuel.

It's like jet fuel.

Yeah.

But I think, you know, in the way I've started to deal with it is like,

maybe,

and I don't know this for sure.

Like, I'm almost, I'd be super interested in your take, having, knowing that you're kind of dealing with the same stuff is like,

I've kind of said like, okay, maybe this is just part of who I am for whatever reason, right?

Maybe it's so entrenched in my personality that I'm simply not going to be able to dig this out.

So how do I take it and turn it from a negative into a positive?

And the way I've been working through that here at 44 has been just simply competing against myself.

How do I be a better version of myself?

And the way that that has been positive for me has been sometimes that's being a little more understanding and less reactive to some crazy shit my kids do or not taking some hater online who you know high interest debt is one of the toughest opponents you'll face unless you power up with a sofi personal loan a sofi personal loan could repackage your bad debt into one low fixed rate monthly payment it's even got super speed since you could get the funds as soon as the same day you sign

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Comes after me for something that someone said on the podcast or whatever and getting emotional about it and just letting it roll because I, it's more about my own performance, right?

And I don't, as long as I feel good about it.

So

I mean, like, do you think you can, you feel like you're going to be able to deal with that and get rid of it?

Or how do you, or is it a tool that you use?

And when you need it, you just pull it out of your tool belt, use that fuel for a bit, and then you put it back in?

Great question.

So, I think, look, I will say that I now feel just incredibly liberated

knowing that I don't really need anything from anybody or any substance in order to feel the way that I want to feel.

Like, I'm going on walks with

my family some nights and completely sober.

And it feels like I'm on drugs.

I mean, it just feels like really good.

And

when, again, when I, for me, when I was, when I needed wine or weed or nicotine or these other things in order to feel a certain way, I was basically saying I couldn't feel that way without them.

So being able to start feeling these things now

has been really empowering.

Look,

there's a parable.

There's a story in the Bible, and I'm not going to get religious right now, but I will share this story because it's been really helpful to me.

It's called the parable of the sower.

And essentially, it's about a seed that falls down from the sky.

And the seed is synonymous with connection to God.

And feel free to call this like connection to the highest version of you.

There's four different examples of a seed falling from the sky.

And in three of the four examples, it lands in the wrong place.

It doesn't have the ideal situations to grow and it basically does nothing.

One out of four times, it lands in fertile soil and produces 100 fold is exactly what it says, 100 fold what was intended.

So I just, I kind of got in this rhythm where I said a year, year and a half ago, if I want to connect with God, with source, with with the highest version of me, I want to become very good at like the soil optimization game.

I want to get very good at taking great care of myself.

I want to sleep well, I want to eat well, I want to feel well.

I want to see how this version is guided.

And look, man, this is a big part of the way this book came to be.

Like, this book really feels like I was channeling something from something much bigger than me.

It wasn't difficult to produce once I got back into it.

It flowed really easily.

and look i'm i'm resisting goals my publisher is upset about this but i'm resisting goals in terms of number of books sold i'm resisting goals in terms of number of speaking events that i do because i just want to be open to where this thing could go and my main goals are to show up when my book gets launched.

I want to be in the best shape I've ever been in.

I want the relationships that I have with my kids and my wife, my friends, and God to be in a better place than they've ever been in.

And I just keep working on making sure that this is as optimized as possible.

And

I'm having really good results so far.

So I'm doubling down and I'm going to see where this, you know, how far I can take it.

Yeah, I was listening to Tucker Carlson's podcast the other day.

I like Tucker.

He can be batshit crazy, but I really like him.

And

he was talking about, he was talking about his faith.

And he said, you know, basically, whether you believe in God or not,

your soul is seeking God, right?

It is, right?

And we find it in different ways.

We can find it in, you know, we can pretend that we, you know, that we're secular, but ultimately, when you look into how someone lives their lives, there's a religion in their life, like something in their life becomes a religion.

We always have a religion somewhere, whether we call it God or not.

I call it God.

I'm Christian and firm believer.

And what I've, my point in saying all that is,

what's been very interesting to me as I've gotten older and I've started to focus more on having a relationship with God, the more consistent that relationship is, the more more at peace and in tune I found my life to be.

And that is not revolutionary information.

You know, that's been said a million, probably a hundred million times over the course of, you know, since Jesus, but

it is 100% true that like

I find myself the most at peace when I am properly aligned with

things that I consider bigger than myself, if that makes sense.

Oh, yeah.

When it's about me, when the thing is, I'm not making enough money, I don't have the position, not enough people are downloading my podcast, or whatever stupid thing I'm, you know, is about me,

my body starts craving sugar, it starts craving alcohol, or whatever escape I can find.

And when it's about, you know, when it's about God, when it's about my community, when it's about, you know, taking responsibility for the people in my company and making sure they're taken care of, and all of a sudden, it's like miraculously, you don't need those things.

Like your body just doesn't, literally doesn't crave them.

Yep.

And, you know, I, you know, we haven't gone through these journeys.

Um,

like

one, have you found that?

And two, how do you cultivate that in your life?

It seems like you might be going through it right now.

Yeah.

So look, it's funny you mentioned this because

The third chapter of my book is called happiness versus meaning.

And I break down a lot of, and I share a lot of research around people that are, that are pursuing happiness versus people who are pursuing meaning as it relates to retirement, but it applies in all areas of life.

And so essentially, there was some research done where they took a lot of people who half of them said, I'm prioritizing personal happiness.

The other 50% said, I'm prioritizing purpose and meaning and contribution beyond myself.

And what they found was the people that prioritized happiness had a reaction in their body.

Their body's response was the same response that a body has when it's dealing with chronic adversity, like the loss of a loved one, the loss of a job, inflammation markers went through the roof, immunity went down.

These people were much more likely to get sick and die.

This is why you hear a lot of stories about people when they retire, like they die two or three years later, like they lose their purpose.

And the people that prioritize purpose, like they're here for something bigger than just themselves, bigger than like sitting on a beach and drinking fruity alcoholic beverages every single day, which I'm sure it can be great for like a week or two, but at some some point, I don't think that anyone is going to get lasting happiness from that.

Their inflammation was low, their immunity was high.

Like they, they just, they, they were not here for the party, they were here to really continue to make a difference.

And so, ironically enough, you know, pursuing happiness is a really bad way to achieve happiness.

And if you want to be happy, the data shows us like we just need to keep focusing on these things that go beyond us and our personal gain.

And that that is what's going to unlock you know the feeling of bliss and happiness in our own lives dude so this is so wild that you're saying this

so during during the period that i've mentioned this this i don't mean to keep coming back to this but it happened in the last year so it's i you know and i've worked my way out of it so a lot of these things are like really clear in my mind um during that time period when I'm, you know, just felt very lost, you know, rudderless, like it was the first time in my life I didn't know the next thing that I wanted to do like I didn't know okay I've always kind of known how I want to contribute to whatever I wanted to do and I literally don't know right now right I purposeless at that moment

maybe outside of making sure my kids were happy yep you know in any good place

I had a I had a I had this I'll call it a testosterone scare like I it's February of 2024 and and it's you know I'm used to New York winters.

I'm used to, you know, vitamin D deficiency.

I'm used to the winter blues that happens up here, which is a a very real thing.

You know, in Albany, New York, where I live, we see 66 days of full sun a year.

That's it.

66 days.

So, like, I'm used to what that feels like and how to navigate that.

And, dude, it was like I hit a brick wall.

I couldn't get out of bed, no libido, no energy, did not want to go to the gym, nothing.

Like, and I'm

a seven-day a week guy when I'm when I'm dialed in, like, you know, in terms of working out.

So, I take this at-home testosterone test through one of the companies that actually Huberman recommends.

And

I find my testosterone is in the seventh percentile of men, the seventh.

Basically, I'm at zero.

And

like, so I call my doctor and I'm like,

you know, at this point, I'm 43.

I'm like, I'm 43 years old, like pretty fit guy.

Like, I'm not, like, what the, what is going on?

Yeah.

And so we start talking.

And basically she explains that, like, and this is to your point about retirement, like she's like, when your body feels like you're done contributing, it essentially just starts shutting down.

Like it's just like, okay, you're done contributing.

You know what I mean?

Like you've hit your usefulness to society.

Like start shutting down.

And

it like, now, you know, I took some, I took, you know, some meds or whatever.

I got myself back in track and now I'm fine.

But like it was wild that in this moment where I felt no purpose, no meaning, felt rudderless, didn't have energy that my body was just like, he must be done.

You know, we'll just stop doing the things that makes you like a man.

It makes you, you know, in this case.

And I honestly believe, and this is another reason why I would never retire, is like, I do honestly believe that your body is listening to you.

And as long as you have purpose, have meaning, have a reason to keep showing up, keep getting up in the morning that drives you, your body will do absolutely everything it can to make sure that you continue to show up.

But the moment you like downshift into, hey, I'm just going to coast, your body's like,

we don't really need to keep going.

We're good.

And I have zero like evidence beyond, actually, most of the figures in your book are probably right there.

But like, I believe that's a real thing.

And I think we have to be very cognizant of that, that we don't expect, hey, I'm going to hit 62 and live for another 20 years in bliss, not working and being able to do all these things I want.

Because as you say in your book, the year that

when

the retirement age was set at 62, the lifespan of a male was only seven more years.

That's it.

Seven more, you had seven years post-retirement.

It was the average life expectancy.

And you were getting a third of your income from Social Security, a third of your income from pension plans, which don't really exist anymore.

And

you had to supplement a third of your income for like six years.

That's all you needed.

Like this was, we were never meant to come here to do something that we don't enjoy doing for 30 years to earn the right to sit around and do nothing at all after that for another 30 years.

Yeah.

So, you know,

how do we start to really position this like tactically?

Like, if I'm sitting here and I'm going, I'm either that hand-wringing grinder that can't stop or I do have this false sense of this utopian life that I'm going to live when I hit a number.

Like, what are some of the very maybe like first tactical things, even if it's just self-awareness or an exercise or something that I can do to start to go, what do I really want?

Like when you, even when you sit down, like, how do I determine, like, what is it that I really want to do?

Do I really want to retire?

Like, how do I work through that mentally to start making these decisions?

Yeah, look, I want to, another good question.

I want to double down and I have something else to add though, but I want to double down on the whole, like, look,

If you're tired, if you haven't been working out, if you're not eating well, if there's just a lot of stress in your life, like I don't think that you should be calling upon this current version of yourself to be making important long-term decisions about the future of the type of work that you're going to do and where you're going to live or who you're going to spend your time with.

So, I would really encourage people to spend, you know, a couple weeks.

I mean, I think that's all it takes to really make a big difference of committing to getting good sleep and eating well and let that version of you guide you

in terms of how do I want to come at this?

How do I want to approach it?

But look, ultimately,

I would say that if you can find some work to do that is big P purpose,

like that's great.

And for some of us, we get to keep finding things to focus on and contribute and the work that we do to earn a living and it lights us up and it's how we want to spend our time.

I don't, I think that like...

I don't think everyone needs that.

I think that what everyone needs is to not be doing something that sucks their soul,

that they don't hate doing.

But if you can find something, like I share a story about my brother-in-law has a friend who's got a job at a software company and he likes the work fine.

Like he thinks it's pretty good and he likes his coworkers.

He thinks that they're cool people.

They have an incredible vacation policy that allows him to see fish in concert 30 times a year, right?

So going to these concerts is his passion.

And he found work that allows him to do that, right?

And now he might not continue to do what he's doing now, but he'll probably do something else.

as he gets older that will allow him to continue to spend his time and his energy and his efforts on things that light him up.

Like I know people that their passion is they want to plan and organize the amazing two trips that all the friends take every single year or all the

big parties in the neighborhood.

And look, if you can find work that allows you to live out your passion in some other area, that's great.

But ultimately, there's going to be a lot of flexibility here.

I think by the year 2027, depending on where you get your information, over 45% of the workers in the the United States are going to be freelancers.

There's going to be a lot of companies, if you have talents, if you have skills, and you're willing to offer them, they're going to let you do it on your terms.

So if you say, look, I want to work four days a week, but I need all Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

I don't want to work summers.

I'm going to take a two-year sabbatical and then come back at some point.

Like, you're going to have these opportunities.

And during that time away, during that time off, you know, there's masterclasses, there's Udemy, there's all these other places, courses that you can go and learn new skills and learn different skills.

And I think that there's so many jobs that are going to exist because of AI in 10, 15, 20 years that don't exist now.

Like I heard Gary Vee the other day saying, and I agree, he's like, there's going to be a business in five or 10 years where people will pay you to go on walks with them.

Like you have a certain topic of interest that they share and they want to hear your opinion on it.

And they're going to pay you 20 bucks to walk with them.

Yeah.

I agree.

I really like where you started too about

spend some time and get your mind right before you make these long-term decisions.

I think that's a really important point.

I had a young guy listening to the show randomly text me the other day.

I don't even know how he got my phone number, but not that I cared.

And he's like, man, I'm struggling.

I've been procrastinating.

I'm ruminating on all these dark ideas and I'm not sure what I want to do in my life, whatever.

And he's like in his mid-20s.

And part of me was like, bro, you're a baby.

Like, just keep going.

Like, you gotta, you know, you got a long way before you have to worry about some of these things.

Like, just keep, just keep going.

I didn't go that route.

I, he was in a place where I wanted to be very positive.

So I'm just kind of like asking him questions, like, hey, you drinking or smoking?

No.

I'm like, he's, I'm like, you know, what's going on with your sleep?

He's like, I can't sleep, blah, blah, blah.

And I said, well, are you working out?

And he's like, no.

I go, zero workouts.

He goes, no workouts.

I go, here's what I want you to do.

Do not text me again for a month.

Go work out four to five times a week for a month, and then I want you to text me.

I guarantee the tone of your text will be different.

And that was about, that was, that was a little over a month ago.

And he texted me two days ago and was like, dude,

I still don't know what I want to do, but I'm sleeping.

I'm, I'm, I'm feeling better.

I'm not procrastinating on shit anymore.

Like, and it sometimes is just.

get yourself in a, in a position, like, just do a few of the right things.

Like, it's, you don't, you can eat a, you can eat fries.

Just eat reasonably well the rest of the week.

You know what I mean?

Like it's not, I feel like we, we, we've gotten into this black or white society where if I'm going to eat healthy, I have to be organic and, you know, vegetables and meat only.

And if I'm going to work out, I got to go seven days a week and have a program.

And it's like, eh,

just.

Do it.

Start with a few things.

Like start with just something small that gets you in the right direction.

And that momentum will take you there.

And then, to your point then you once you're feeling a little better you can kind of pick your head up and look around and go okay what do i want to do and i think it this is something that i don't think we talk about enough is like the seasons of life right like when you're in your 20s

just go do shit try shit break shit get fired start a company you know you know go do try different places in the country whatever whatever your life is but like like bang into things and see how they feel in your 20s.

Like, I think sometimes people get so hung up on if I don't do my 20s right, then I'm screwed.

And it's like, I'll tell you firsthand, I wasted my 20s.

I had no idea what I wanted to do.

Yeah, I had jobs, but none of them were productive.

None of them really set my course.

I wasn't fulfilled by any of them.

It wasn't until my 30s until I started to find those things.

And now I find myself in a, I'm in a very good place.

I work for a great company.

You know, I get to talk to amazing people like you.

I'm coming down to your book launch in a few weeks.

Like, you know,

yourself time and just incrementally grow instead of this, like, if I don't do this now, I'm screwed.

And then that puts you in a mindset of, I'm screwed.

So now I'm not going to do anything.

And then all of a sudden you find yourself 50 pounds overweight, stuffing chips and in your face while you're ripping down heaters and your life sucks.

You know, you haven't been late in two years.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting.

And we're, we're thinking.

in our current situation, the way that we're currently showing up that these things are going to be really difficult.

And at first they are.

But like for sleep, for example, I wake up now most mornings and the way I feel, I didn't know that feeling was on the menu a couple years ago.

I didn't know it was possible to feel that good.

And so for me, like avoiding a glass of wine or two at night now, it's less about, oh, I know this is really bad for me.

And it's more about I sort of traded one addiction for another.

Like I'm more addicted to waking up and feeling amazing in the morning than I am from the feeling I'll get from having a glass or two of wine.

Even like, I'll show my age a little bit now.

I'm 48.

I went out last night with my family to a concert.

It's 11 o'clock at night and there's a great pizza joint right by the 930 Club in Washington, D.C.

And they all wanted pizza.

And I, and like, I love the pizza and it's really good.

But I also knew that I have like

this conversation with you today.

I've got a few other things that I need to do.

And so it was, it was just my body, my mind, my spirit, my soul.

They were helping me in the moment to make it not a difficult choice to avoid doing that.

Right.

And so kudos to you for the advice that you gave that guy, man.

And I, and again, like, I think all of these things are, are, are totally fine, but the more you do them, like the more you get your health right, the more you get your diorite and diet right, the way that you feel in your body, how good that feels.

At least for me, man, like I don't want to, I don't want to disrupt that.

And it's almost like if I, if I go on one of these benders and if I do drink a lot or if I do eat a lot of crappy food, then I'm going to feel like crap.

And

so

it's helpful to be reminded

in my body of why I might not want to do those things.

Dude, and then to your point, then you're chasing it the next day, right?

Then you're having way too much caffeine to try to keep yourself awake or something worse.

You're, you know, you know, you got to take it.

five extra nicotine pouches or cigarettes or whatever.

You know what I mean?

Like then all of a sudden you're chasing it the next day when you wake up in the morning and you are in that great place.

You're, you're just, your body doesn't crave it.

And I'd say, you know, we'll kind of, I'll leave it with this.

You know, what works for me is just, I have a very simple mantra that's nothing unique, but works for me is just act as if, right?

Like, what would the version of me do that's a fucking rock star?

Yep.

Right.

Like that wakes up in the morning, crushes the day, you know, on top of everything, getting everything done, getting back to people, being the dad I want to be, being the partner I want to be, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

Like, what does that guy do?

Yep.

And then just act like him.

I'm not him because I do fuck up all the time, right?

And I'll probably never be that guy because that might be an unattainable goal.

However, if I act as if I'm him, I make a lot more of the right decisions.

And I literally say that pizza's another one for me too, dude.

Like pizza and me, I love pizza, like just about everybody, but it just does not work for my body.

It just, all the, it just, I just hate, I hate the way I feel.

So like, I just, when I look, when people are are having pizza, I just look at it and I'm just like, I literally say to myself, like,

the version of me that's a killer doesn't eat pizza.

So I'm just not going to do it.

And it's like finding these little things and it'll be different for everybody, but you find these little things that you can say to yourself in moments.

And man, it's amazing what one little phrase, one little thought can steer you away from these negative things.

What I'll say is that the closer that you get to that rock star version of you, though, the less it's acting as if and the more it's actually just acting because that's how that person and how that version of you acts in those situations yeah i completely agree dude i uh i cannot wait for your book launch party that you're having dude so excited

yeah it's gonna be awesome to see you brother yeah it's gonna be great to irl a little bit and uh just happy for you and everything you have going for the book um tell people where they can find the book uh can you pre-order it now give them all the details and guys uh everything that derek shares make sure you know just scroll down whether it's youtube or wherever you're listening to the the podcast.

I'll have all the links in the show notes.

Thanks, Ryan.

Yes.

So the book is out June 3rd.

It'll be everywhere.

You can get books for the most part.

I'm giving away some bonuses, some pre-order bonuses on my website, derekcobern.com.

And I'm already starting just to share and write a lot more, even beyond the ideas in the book.

It feels really nice to be in a place where I don't really have anything to sell.

I just get to write and share and contribute.

And I mean, maybe I will at some point, but for now, I just like being in a position of being able to give a lot of the wisdom, the ideas, the knowledge that I've been able to pick up over thinking about this topic for 20, you know, 20-some years.

So would love to connect with any or all of you over there.

And can't wait for my book to get out in the world and for hopefully some of the ripple effects it will create.

Yeah, guys.

And while you're pre-ordering Let's Retire Retirement, also pick up Networking is Not Working, which is another incredible book that you wrote as well.

And that was actually when that book came out, it's the last time you were on the show.

So we'll have to make sure there's not such a big gap between appearances because I love having you on.

Our conversations are always awesome.

But dude, appreciate the hell out of you.

So happy for you.

Guys, I've read the book.

I got an early, early copy.

Incredible.

You're going to take a ton away from it.

And I'll tell you what else.

This is a sneaky side benefit to Derek's book.

You gain a lot of cocktail party fodder, like stats that you can use to sound super smart when you're in cocktail parties as well.

And I've already used a couple of them.

So that's just a little bonus that you get as well.

It's a lot of like these little stats that you can use in cocktail parties if that's important to you.

Oh, yeah.

All right.

Appreciate you, bud.

Be good.

Thanks so much, Ryan.

Appreciate you.

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Hmm.

It's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.

Could you be more specific?

When it's cravenient.

Okay.

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I'm seeing a pattern here.

Well, yeah, we're talking about what I crave.

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