Spike Lee On Dynamic Duos & Reimagining Kurosawa

Speaker 1 This message comes from NPR sponsor Sonos. Fill your home with incredible sound and unforgettable moments with a Sonos.
Right now, Sonos is offering up to 30% off during their Black Friday event.

Speaker 1 Shop now through December 1st, 2025 at Sonos.com.

Speaker 2 This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley.
With filmmaker Spike Lee, there are a few guarantees.

Speaker 2 The story will have something to say, the images will enter the cultural conversation, and he's going to weave in New York any chance he gets.

Speaker 2 Over 40 years in more than 35 films, Spikely has captured defining moments in American life.

Speaker 2 The racial tensions on the hottest day of the year and Do the Right Thing, the sweeping life of Malcolm X, and the devastation and aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and when the levees broke.

Speaker 2 He's given us dramas, comedies, and documentaries that take on power, history, race, and community. And along the way, he's introduced audiences to actors we now can't imagine Hollywood without.

Speaker 2 Holly Berry, Rosie Perez, Samuel L. Jackson, and Denzel Washington.

Speaker 3 You're leaving out Gene Bunny, John Carlos, Posito,

Speaker 2 his latest, highest to lowest, flips Akira Kurosawa's 1963 classic, High and Low, into a modern-day hip-hop drama.

Speaker 2 Denzel Washington plays a music mogul whose world unravels when his family is pulled into a ransom plot.

Speaker 2 Jeffrey Wright and ASAP Rocky round round out the cast with Rocky stepping into a Spikely joint for the first time. And Spikely, welcome back to fresh air.

Speaker 3 When was the last time I was here?

Speaker 2 I know it's been some years.

Speaker 3 It's been a minute.

Speaker 3 Look, I'm happy to be here. Let's go.

Speaker 2 Let's go. Let me tell audiences about this film.
So in this film, Denzel Washington plays David King.

Speaker 2 He owns this record label, this very successful record label, and his son, along with the son of his friend and driver, Jeffrey Wright is kidnapped for ransom and the kidnapper played by ASAP Rocky accidentally releases the wrong young man leaving King and the decision to fork over 17.5 million dollars in French and Swiss francs in Swiss francs for a young man who is not his son let's listen to a clip King David now ain't this son sorry I got your full attention now huh

Speaker 4 you know you got the wrong boy right yeah so i've heard and i also learned you can never trust the help

Speaker 5 but luckily for me it was never about the boy it was always about you well fair enough but if it's about me then you can't expect me to pay 17 and a half million dollars for somebody else's son if it's about me well and then his blood is gonna be on your hands then how you want it no man come on now

Speaker 4 this ain't no negotiation it's a day of reckoning you're not god no more than iron

Speaker 5 all right listen god give you everything you want, right? No, God gave you everything you need. So the question is, what do you need? How can I help you? I ain't saying I'm God, but I could help.

Speaker 2 That was a scene from Spike Lee's newest film, Highest to Lowest.

Speaker 2 Spike, this film wrestles with a couple of different themes, but there is this main question that is being asked. What would you do to save your own child?

Speaker 2 What would you do to save the child of someone you love? And you've always taken on subjects that kind of move with time, like you're asking a moral question in your work.

Speaker 2 What was it in particular about this story, reimagining this story that you felt like was so important to tell right now?

Speaker 3 Well, I'm glad to use the word reimagining. I say reinterpretation because I'm running away from the word remake.

Speaker 3 But Kurosawa's film, The Great Kira Kurosawa, who made this film post-war

Speaker 3 Japan 1963, is from a book by a writer Ed McMcBain.

Speaker 3 And the strength of this film, the strength of the book and Chris Howell's film, it really deals with morality.

Speaker 3 And when you have an actor, and in the Japanese version, Tisha Marfun, one of the great, great actors, and then with Denzel, who's right there,

Speaker 3 great actors,

Speaker 3 when they're going through trials and tribulations, the audience becomes engaged and they're with that person

Speaker 3 every step of the way.

Speaker 3 Consequently, audiences, when they see this film, the ones we've seen already,

Speaker 3 they're with Denzel's character, David King, and they ask themselves, what would they do? Right, right.

Speaker 3 What would they do in the position that they see on screen that the great magnificent Denzel Washington is in? And it takes star quality. Here's the thing.

Speaker 3 The reason why people are stars is because they have the talent and the audience is engaged.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And from the jump, the audience has been engaged with Mr. Denzel Washington.

Speaker 3 And I've been blessed with five of those dynamic duos.

Speaker 2 Right, you guys are like Martin Scorsese and Robert De Niro.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Or you could say

Speaker 3 LeLay, great Sita LeMet and Al Pacino. You could say Francis Ford with Randall and Godfather and the Apocryphs now.

Speaker 3 So throughout

Speaker 3 history, you've had these

Speaker 3 pairings.

Speaker 2 There's something a little disconcerting, I'll say, about seeing

Speaker 2 Denzel in this character. He portrays it so well.
I've seen the film twice, and you know the first time,

Speaker 2 yeah. The first time I was like, man, he's so...
He's like disheveled a little bit. He's not like a man.
He's at the top, but he doesn't appear at the top.

Speaker 2 The second time, I felt like, that's on purpose. Like, there's something that's being seen in the way that he's moving that perhaps he's out of step with this moment.

Speaker 3 Well, I think that's a great observation. I mean, he's not at the top anymore.
His label,

Speaker 3 record label, stacking hits, is not putting out the hits anymore. So he's in a very vulnerable part.
And also, when you're at the top,

Speaker 3 And that point comes when you're not at the top anymore, that's earth-shaking.

Speaker 2 In the original film, in Kirasawa's film,

Speaker 2 the protagonist is a shoe executive. Right.
And yours, a music mogul. Why did you choose music? It's an interesting.

Speaker 3 Well, that was the script went through Howard for many years. And so when it ended up in Denzel's hands, that change had already been made.

Speaker 3 So I got a call. Denzel says, Spike, you got this script.

Speaker 3 You want to rest? I said, Yeah, send it, FedEx. And before I even hung up the phone, I knew I wanted to do the film, not even knowing, having read what the script was and what it was about.

Speaker 3 Because Denzel didn't say he didn't describe it, he just said, I got a script. I want you to read it.
And that's where it happened.

Speaker 2 It's interesting that that was already the way the script was written when it got to you. And of course, immediately you're like, yes.

Speaker 2 Music is such an integral part of your work.

Speaker 2 It's interwoven into your face.

Speaker 3 It's part of the filmmaking.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's part of the filmmaking.

Speaker 2 There's this

Speaker 2 piece of music, though, right off the top. It's you open with the 1943 Rogers and Hammerstein, oh, what a beautiful morning from Oklahoma.

Speaker 2 But the rest of the film is like soul and hip-hop. How did that is there a story behind you?

Speaker 3 Well, I love all types of music. And I remember my mother was a cinephone.
My father hated

Speaker 3 movies, but my mother is a cinephone.

Speaker 3 I'm the oldest, so they both have passed, but

Speaker 3 she was the one that I was my mother's movie date because my father hated Hollywood. So she introduced me to a whole lot of films.

Speaker 3 Of course, at the time, I didn't want, I mean, I want to run up, it was a wild broken case, run up and down the streets and play stickball and stoop ball stuff, but she says, you know,

Speaker 3 I'm taking your little rusty butt. We're going to the movies, so I don't care what you say.

Speaker 3 And here's the thing, though.

Speaker 3 Every time I look, I don't want to go, I don't want to go, and then we'll come out of the theater. I said, mommy, that was good.

Speaker 3 So it's just an example of

Speaker 3 kids don't know. And when parents take the time and

Speaker 3 introduce their

Speaker 3 stuff to children who might go kicking and screaming, but when they come out of the theater or the movie theater or the museum, whatever, you know,

Speaker 3 you can say lives have been changed. And I know that's happened to me.

Speaker 2 Do you remember one of the movies your mom took you to that really stuck with you?

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 3 This is a famous one. I've said this before, so anybody at home who's heard this before,

Speaker 3 excuse me,

Speaker 3 my mother loved Sean Connery as James Bond,

Speaker 3 007.

Speaker 3 And my mother,

Speaker 3 she always wanted to go to the opening weekend. of these films.
And the theater was packed.

Speaker 3 And, you know, those early James Bond films, the explosions, gunplay, just crazy stuff. And there was a lull in the film.
You got to have those. You can't do that the whole length of the film.

Speaker 3 You got to get the only breath, you know, just some quiet, you know.

Speaker 3 And the theater is completely quiet.

Speaker 3 I said to my mother, Mommy,

Speaker 3 why is that lady,

Speaker 3 why is her name Pussy Galore?

Speaker 3 The whole theater heard that. My mother grabbed me by the neck and said, don't you you say another thing?

Speaker 3 What I do, what I do.

Speaker 3 True story.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 that film came out in 63, so I was born in 50s. I was six years old.
Right, you're like, what's this? I don't know, but it just sounds like a funny name to me.

Speaker 3 And you still remember it to this day.

Speaker 3 Hey, every time that we're in the world.

Speaker 3 Even adults probably says about that name of that character.

Speaker 3 My mother was embarrassed.

Speaker 2 Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Spike Lee.

Speaker 2 His latest film, Highest to Lowest, is a reimagining of Akira Kurosawa's 1963 classic High and Low, set in the world of American hip-hop and global fame.

Speaker 2 We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.

Speaker 1 This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices, like full-service wealth management and advice when you need it.

Speaker 1 You can also invest on your own and trade on Thinkorswim. Visit Schwab.com to learn more.

Speaker 1 This message comes from BetterHelp. President Fernando Madera describes how BetterHelp Online Therapy has helped him.

Speaker 6 For me, sometimes I just need to go and talk to somebody that is not going to judge me, right? It's going to be there and going to listen to me.

Speaker 6 And I can't start just saying, look, I'm not feeling right today. And it feels natural.
I love it.

Speaker 1 To get matched with a therapist, visit betterhelp.com/slash npr for 10% off your first month.

Speaker 7 This message comes from LPL Financial. What if you could have more control over your future? LPL Financial removes the things holding you back and provides the services to push you forward.

Speaker 7 Because when it comes to your finances, your business, your future, LPL Financial believes the only question should be, what if you could?

Speaker 7 LPL Financial, member FINRA SIPC, no strategy assures success or protects against loss. Investing involves risk, including possible loss of principal.

Speaker 1 This message comes from Dell Technologies.

Speaker 1 It's time for Black Friday, Dell Technologies' biggest sale of the year for gift-worthy accessories and select PCs like the Dell 16 Plus featuring Intel Core ultraprocessors.

Speaker 1 Shop now at Dell.com slash deals.

Speaker 2 Today, we're talking to Spike Lee, the director, writer, and producer whose more than 35 films include Do the Right Thing, Malcolm X, Black Klansman, and When the Levees Broke.

Speaker 2 His latest movie, Highest to Lowest, stars Denzel Washington as a music mogul whose life unravels when his family is targeted in a ransom plot. The film also stars ASAP Rocky.

Speaker 2 Denzel's character has lost his ear, really.

Speaker 2 Like, he's become so far away from that hungry, artistic guy he was at the beginning of his life.

Speaker 3 There's a great scene where his wife played Bill Fisher. Darrett says that, you know,

Speaker 3 she doesn't see the joy anymore. Right.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it's something that I heard happen often. I mean, sometimes I can feel it.
You get to midlife and you feel like this thing that you're so passionate about,

Speaker 2 there are ebbs and flows. Ebbs and flows.
Have you ever been there?

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 2 You've not. You've always had a passion.

Speaker 3 Film? Oh, that's... Look, I can't talk for anybody else, but for me,

Speaker 3 I've never had, fell out, fell out of love with cinema because I tell this to my students. I'm a tenured professor of film at NY Graduate Film School.

Speaker 3 Ernest Dickinson, a great camera master, sell all my films up the Malcolm X. Ang Lee was my classmate.
Jim Dramers is two years ahead of us.

Speaker 3 So my love has always been there. Now, there's a business side that's different, but just talking about making films.

Speaker 3 And I truly believe I was put here

Speaker 3 to be a storyteller. So I'll never do, you know, you can get the BS, but push that aside, and sometimes it can be a big pile.

Speaker 2 Right, like, how do you not allow yourself to be consumed by all of that stuff you just have to deal with to get to the thing you love so much?

Speaker 3 Because when you get to the thing after going through that stuff, you're getting through the thing you love,

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 to break it down even a little more for my sister and the audience.

Speaker 3 First day of class, I tell my students that I'm lucky. And

Speaker 3 if you could make a living doing what you love, you won.

Speaker 2 There's this explosive, propulsive scene in the film in Highest to Lowest. It's like the apex part of it.
It happens during the Puerto Rican Day parade.

Speaker 3 And I want to talk a little bit about.

Speaker 3 Who are the fans on the number four trainer? Where are they going?

Speaker 2 Baseball.

Speaker 3 And they're New York Yankees. They're Yankee fans, right? And who are the Yankees playing that day in Yankee Stadium?

Speaker 2 Boston.

Speaker 3 They hated Red Sox. Right, right.

Speaker 3 We got it.

Speaker 2 We can't like leave that. There are so many.
I mean, that whole scene, there's so much to see.

Speaker 3 You know what's that called, really? A set piece.

Speaker 2 Say more. What does that mean?

Speaker 3 A set of film, a scene that stands out. Yes.
Yeah, that's a set piece. But also,

Speaker 3 the set piece... There's one like that in the original too, on the bullet trains in Tokyo, Japan.
So both scenes take place where the ransom is dumped to be picked up by the

Speaker 2 kidnapper? I was wondering what came first. Was it the music and the parade? Was it the scene in the train? Was it because it's really like a story about New York set inside of a thing?

Speaker 3 Well, it had to, it comes from the original. I mean, that's where inspiration comes from.
I knew I cannot

Speaker 3 do a reinterpretation of that, but not even use this scene, a famous scene from that film.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 the thing that was important that the character played by Ace of Rocky, I don't want to be, people think this is just a young thug rapper,

Speaker 3 you know. No,

Speaker 3 young thug is smart, even though his intentions are off the mark, but

Speaker 3 I also don't want to play the NYPD as dopes, as stupid.

Speaker 3 So I had to come up with this scenario where

Speaker 3 it would be very complicated for the NYPD to

Speaker 3 stop this thing happening.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 So I automatically thought about

Speaker 3 having this

Speaker 3 thing having this drop, ransom drop, happen on a Sunday afternoon Yankee Stadium, the Red Sox in town. And also, on top of that, the Puerto Rican Day Parade is always on a Sunday.

Speaker 3 So have both of those on a Sunday. And then

Speaker 3 I went on to my brother Eddie Palmieri,

Speaker 3 who recently, he passed away three or four days before the premiere in New York in Britain.

Speaker 2 Did he ever have a chance to see it? Did he see himself in it? No.

Speaker 3 And filming this, you know, we were very

Speaker 3 respectful. And it was not done to play back.
We did seven or eight takes, and I don't remember exactly, and each time it was live. The Eddie Palmier south orchestra playing live.

Speaker 3 And when you see the film, you can see the joy joy in Eddie's face as he's performing and doing the thing that he was born to be on earth, you know, to perform and sing and represent the great people of Puerto Rico.

Speaker 2 It's such a moving scene, too. Also, and knowing and understanding that he just passed away.
We just lost him.

Speaker 3 One of the giants. In general, one of the giants.

Speaker 3 And it was very emotional at

Speaker 3 the premiere in New York, in Brooklyn. We had Eddie II.

Speaker 3 And there's many members of the family there, too. He spoke to the audience before we began the film.

Speaker 2 Oh, oh, that's beautiful.

Speaker 2 I want to stay on highest to lowest because I wanted to tour this penthouse apartment

Speaker 2 that Denzel has.

Speaker 3 That's a real building.

Speaker 2 It's a real building. And the art and the artifacts.

Speaker 2 Tell me the story about that. Are those your pieces?

Speaker 3 A lot of them are, but

Speaker 3 copies were made because stuff is messed up on a film.

Speaker 3 So I cannot have somebody accidentally put a hole in the Basquiat. We weren't

Speaker 3 a real or Richard Abaddon portrait of Lena Horn, you know. So those are portraits, and then we finished those, those copies were destroyed.

Speaker 2 Okay, so like copies of copies, but just to describe for the audience, I mean, Basquiats on the wall. It's a shortcut.

Speaker 3 It's a shortcut to show that this is a fluent

Speaker 3 black family.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 You know, and the money,

Speaker 3 you first see where they live for open credit sticks, but when you go inside their penthouse, you see there's millions of dollars on the wall

Speaker 2 of black art and black art.

Speaker 3 A lot of that art is owned by my wife and I Tanya.

Speaker 2 When did you start collecting art?

Speaker 3 Well, I started collecting

Speaker 3 comic books, baseball cards, basketball cards. So

Speaker 3 the art thing came much later when I had some money. But here's the thing, I'm under the age where

Speaker 3 our mothers threw out our comic books,

Speaker 3 our baseball cards, which were worth thousands and thousands. Today.
We didn't know. Here's the thing, though, especially in Brooklyn.
We're flipping cards. We're putting cards on our bikes

Speaker 3 on the spokes so you can hear the noise. No one knew.
Yes.

Speaker 3 No one knew.

Speaker 2 That they would be worth something.

Speaker 3 Millions of dollars. Right?

Speaker 2 You could have funded your first, she's gotta have it with all of those.

Speaker 3 Which cost

Speaker 3 $175,000, which was...

Speaker 3 Their cars worth more than that. Right.

Speaker 2 I follow this young woman on TikTok and she talks a lot about art. And she, I think she's an art history major and she's like out in the world now just starting out.

Speaker 2 And I was like, she seems familiar. I don't know.
And then one day I

Speaker 2 happen across one of her videos, and it's your daughter.

Speaker 3 So she grew up, yeah, she grew up around all this, right? Yeah, yeah, she's grown, so is my son, Jackson, and they're both

Speaker 3 in the arts. Uh,

Speaker 3 my daughter's a great photographer,

Speaker 3 my son, Jackson, you know, he's works to me, he's like

Speaker 3 the merchandise, you know, getting deals done. So they're both, you know, thriving.

Speaker 2 They're thriving. But art

Speaker 3 is the bedrock.

Speaker 2 It's the bedrock.

Speaker 3 Because they grew up, you know, with their

Speaker 3 my wife. Tanya's a producer too.

Speaker 3 In fact,

Speaker 3 the film she produced

Speaker 3 was the first place I saw ASIP Rocky in that film.

Speaker 2 Wait, that was her film, his first film. What is it called?

Speaker 3 The title of the film that Tyne produced, dope. It's dope

Speaker 3 that's where i first saw rocky in front of the camera and not a music video in a film rocky's performance amazing last night the the screening here in la

Speaker 3 i gave him a big hug i said look i love you you're great but the next film you can't play a rapper and you cannot just be corned into

Speaker 3 doing this role again you have you have immense talent So please don't play another rapper.

Speaker 2 You see right after this.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 2 You see more. You see depth.

Speaker 3 there's a lot of comparisons people are give to him and denzel because of the way they look they look and also the first i saw checking it out five years ago saying this guy looks like denzel denzel's son yeah and and that was even before you know this this the whole thing and you know the high and low happening highest and lowest happening yeah i mean the community said that I don't want him to be put in the in the corner this early in his career.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, he is, he's, I mean, he's a leading man.

Speaker 2 Let's take a short break. My guest today is Spike Lee.
We're talking about his new film, Highest to Lowest. We'll be right back after a short break.
I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.

Speaker 7 This message comes from Solventum.

Speaker 7 For decades, healthcare professionals have trusted their solutions to help provide exceptional care, from wound care therapies that can accelerate healing to dental restoratives that preserve smiles.

Speaker 7 Today, Solventum is building on that legacy by listening to your needs and imagining new possibilities, ushering in a new era of better, smarter, safer healthcare to improve lives.

Speaker 7 See how they're shaping the future of care at Solventum.com. This message comes from Babel.

Speaker 7 Babel's conversation-based language technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world.

Speaker 7 With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, start speaking with Babel today. Get up to 55% off your Babel subscription right now at babble.com slash NPR.

Speaker 7 Spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash NPR. Rules and restrictions may apply.

Speaker 2 I'm actually just thinking about you back when you first came on the scene. I mean, you came like a lightning bolt.
You talk about campaigning for Malcolm X, putting that nicely.

Speaker 2 I remember the media really portraying you, talking to you a lot about being angry. And I had this debate with my husband about it because I was like, I actually really loved it.

Speaker 2 I felt like, you know, as a young person being anti-establishment,

Speaker 3 I felt like.

Speaker 2 What did your husband say? Well, he said, well, I never thought he was angry. I just thought he was confident and knew what he wanted and had a point of view.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 3 what was your assessment?

Speaker 2 You were kind of tough on the media those early days.

Speaker 3 Well, they were tough on me. You know, this belligerent, young

Speaker 3 rouser.

Speaker 3 I mean, when Do the Right Thing came out, you know, I was portrayed as a racist and

Speaker 3 Mookie through Goblin's Can through the Sal's Tamas window and Jungle Fever, I was said I was anti-Semitic because of how they felt the portrayal of the two Jewish owners of the club, played by

Speaker 3 the Tutiro brothers, Nick and John. So I don't combat that type of criticism as much as I used to, of course, as it died down.

Speaker 3 But when Do the Right Thing premiered in Can 1989, American journalist was saying that this film was going to cause riots. So black people riot in the summertime.

Speaker 3 And they were pleading to

Speaker 3 Universal Pictures. If you're going to release the film, don't release in summertime.
Because they thought that would be where we'd be all riled up or something. Yeah.

Speaker 3 It's kind of crazy looking back on that. Like, a film's not going to do that.
But when you, if you look, that film really had the crystal ball.

Speaker 3 When you look at the

Speaker 3 killing, the murder of Ray Raheem by the NYPD and the chill cold,

Speaker 3 where that happened. We were talking about global warming, a lot of things, and that film, you know, we talked about came to life in

Speaker 3 later years.

Speaker 2 I mean, the socio-political message, it almost mirrored to a T 2020.

Speaker 2 That's when everyone was talking about it, like Radio Raheem became a meme.

Speaker 3 And I wrote that script in 88, we shot in 89.

Speaker 3 Look, I'm not happy, I'm not bragging about that, but

Speaker 3 I'm not happy that the stuff you had in the film ended up happening in real life.

Speaker 3 But it did.

Speaker 2 The thing about it is, it seems like we didn't have the, we weren't there yet in the 80s and 90s to have a true conversation about it. Came back up in 2020, allowed us to tap into it.

Speaker 3 And I know what you're saying, sis, but it's sad that

Speaker 3 people had to die

Speaker 3 for this to happen.

Speaker 3 Families were destroyed because of this.

Speaker 3 They really weaponized the world woke. And as we sit here in LA, you know,

Speaker 3 they got the feds now trying to take over.

Speaker 3 DC,

Speaker 3 formerly known as Chalka City.

Speaker 3 We live in, you know,

Speaker 3 the world now is bananas.

Speaker 2 Let's talk a little bit about your documentary work because you've done quite a few of them.

Speaker 2 Academy Award nominated Four Little Girls about the 63 Birmingham church bombing. Bad 25, which I forgot about, but Bad 25 about Michael Jackson's bad album.

Speaker 2 And that's not, I mean, that's not even a full list

Speaker 2 off the wall.

Speaker 2 I've heard many storytellers say, especially documentarians, like they take on work

Speaker 2 that they can't get out of their heads. And I wanted to know what's your rubric for finding the documentaries that stories that you want to tell.

Speaker 3 For me, I don't make a distinction between feature films

Speaker 3 and documentaries. For me, it's storytelling.
And one of the most significant films I've ever made was For Little Girls, which is about

Speaker 3 the 19 September 1963 bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 the goal was to

Speaker 3 talk to the parents, the relatives,

Speaker 3 the teachers.

Speaker 3 Talk about these four beautiful young black girls who were murdered,

Speaker 3 were

Speaker 3 murdered by multiple sticks of dynamite.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 who

Speaker 3 these beautiful young girls might have been

Speaker 3 or they were allowed to live.

Speaker 3 These members of the KKK stuck dynamite in a place of worship, a church, and murdered four beautiful young black girls who weren't allowed to

Speaker 3 live. Who knows what they might have been?

Speaker 3 Mothers,

Speaker 3 grandchildren, but their life was,

Speaker 3 you know, snuffed out with the

Speaker 3 act of hate Jadakah Hoover was not a friend of black folks not a friend of Dr. King or the civil rights movement

Speaker 3 that week they know who did it it was one of the people the guy's nickname was Donnie McBob

Speaker 3 and we wanted this film to be seen I did it at HBO we wanted this film to be eligible for the best feature length documentary and so in order to do that you have to have a week-long run theatrical run and a couple days before that, I got a call by the FBI.

Speaker 3 I don't know why they're calling me.

Speaker 3 They said they would like to see a print of the film. And a week later, they reopened the case

Speaker 3 and sent two of those

Speaker 3 murderers to prison. They ain't been walking around free since September 9th.

Speaker 3 Jacob Hoover, they knew who did it.

Speaker 2 That's pretty powerful, Spike.

Speaker 3 So I can't do anything to top that.

Speaker 2 No, that's pretty.

Speaker 3 And it's not a thing I talk about a lot, but it did happen.

Speaker 2 It's one of your most powerful pieces of work. I agree.
You lost an Academy Award. You were like nominated for it, but you didn't win.

Speaker 3 We did a funny story. Yeah.

Speaker 3 So we got nominated, and I told HPO, we got to bring the parents to L.A.

Speaker 3 So we did not win. And so at that time, Denzel co-owned a restaurant.
So I was supposed to be the party.

Speaker 3 it was a party and no one was upset about not winning because their night was made they got a hug and a kiss on the cheek from Denzel Washington for them that was the Oscar

Speaker 3 that was the Oscar Denzel hugged him and gave him a kiss on the cheek and they got their Oscar

Speaker 2 another story that um you told was the story of Hurricane Katrina and we're now coming up on the anniversary i know they all.

Speaker 3 Let me ask a question,

Speaker 3 my sister. What, you got to help me here? What word can I say instead of anniversary?

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 2 And commemoration doesn't work. It is like,

Speaker 2 what is the word that speaks out?

Speaker 3 Give me my email. So when you get that word.

Speaker 2 Right, you find it.

Speaker 3 Because I think it's coming up August 29th, right?

Speaker 2 It is, yeah.

Speaker 3 Please give me that word because

Speaker 3 I refuse to say anniversary. Right.
To me, that's

Speaker 3 birthdays, wedding, or what, but what happened happened 20 years ago.

Speaker 2 I don't want to.

Speaker 3 Yep.

Speaker 3 Help me. I can't say anniversary anymore.
So

Speaker 2 you just say it's been 20 years. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Thank you. Right.
Boom.

Speaker 2 It's been 20 years. There's another documentary, Katrina, Come Hell or High Water, that

Speaker 2 you're associated with. Are you producing it?

Speaker 3 You're the producer of it. And there's three parts.
I did the final episode of the three. And also Ryan Kugler has one too.
So a big moment coming up.

Speaker 2 What is it about this particular story? You've already done it with one. What is it that we need to revisit, that we need to sit with and understand about it in this second go-round?

Speaker 3 Americans have short memories.

Speaker 3 So that's why I came apart of this other, this is a revisiting of it.

Speaker 3 And here's another thing, though, is that by going back 20 years and then looking at New Orleans today, they've lost a large part of the black population.

Speaker 3 Black folks have gone on and thrived in Houston, Atlanta, Georgia,

Speaker 3 Charlotte, North Carolina.

Speaker 3 It's

Speaker 3 a good argument to say that New Orleans has not

Speaker 2 to show us what it is now,

Speaker 2 what's been lost.

Speaker 3 I think that people are still dealing with that.

Speaker 3 20 years later. Right.

Speaker 2 As you mentioned, your mom was deep into movies. Your dad was a jazz musician.
You grew up like just surrounded by music.

Speaker 3 A creative household.

Speaker 2 Creative household. And

Speaker 2 they often say we like love and we are connected to the music that was a coming of age for us. Like we are often perpetually stuck in it.

Speaker 2 But as a creative, like how do you view the moving times, the music that we're hearing today

Speaker 2 without sounding like a fuddy-duddy?

Speaker 3 Like, can you see that value?

Speaker 3 Music and

Speaker 3 people complaining about rock and roll back in the day so i'm not necessarily a purist that like my father was i mean anything that that that was played with electricity you know he was not he was not with that he always was tone as is like literally like he didn't even like to play recognition my father bill lee was the top folk bassist working he's on the first simon and garfunkel album the first Gordon Left album that he played with Judy Collins.

Speaker 3 I mean, a whole bunch of people. He's on the Bob Dylan album.

Speaker 3 And when Bob Dylan went electric, everybody went electric. And my father used to play Fender Bass.

Speaker 3 He called it Tone Ass Is. I'm not going to do anything where electricity is used to amplify the sound and make it louder.
Wow. And my mother had to go to work.
Wow.

Speaker 3 If you saw Crookland,

Speaker 2 that's real life. That actually

Speaker 3 family. Yeah.

Speaker 3 And my mother, I mean, before my father was working, she was going to Bloomerdale's and Lord and Taylor, you you know, every week.

Speaker 3 But my father said, I'm not doing that. I'm not playing electric bass.

Speaker 3 My mother had to work, you know, and I and I saw I was feeling, and I was the eldest of five, I was feeling a certain way about my father because

Speaker 3 my mother was working and had to cook and clean, and included myself, my siblings. We were crazy.

Speaker 3 I mean, we would, when relatives knew that them bad leads are coming over, we were like, oh boy, I hope they don't eat up all our food and tear our house up.

Speaker 2 that was a real possibility huh oh it happened yeah

Speaker 3 it happened so i felt the way about my father but then i understood that he's a purist and my mother supported him loved him and so she she had to work cook and clean you know she's gonna do that and hopefully god willing you know my father get a break

Speaker 3 and um the world will see the great musician he was and later on my mother died you know i he scored my films my student films and why you graduate film school and then she's to have it mobile blues do the right thing and uh the jungle fever you know spike this is a real treat for me to talk to you because the treat is mine it's mutual my sister oh well well i'm happy about that

Speaker 2 i think your films are part of like my self-conception my understanding of who I am and the role that I play in this world.

Speaker 3 What's the first film you saw?

Speaker 3 She's the Have It?

Speaker 2 No, because I was too young for that, but I saw that later. But the one that really sits with me the most is Malcolm X, and I'll tell you why, because I grew up in Detroit.

Speaker 3 Détrois.

Speaker 2 I grew up in Détrois. Detroit Public Schools, the day that your film came out, they allowed kids to leave school to go see it.

Speaker 2 And a teacher of mine had us all get on a bus, and we arrived at the bottom.

Speaker 3 You got on the bus?

Speaker 2 We all got on the bus together.

Speaker 3 I made a movie, too.

Speaker 2 And we arrived at the theater, and there were lots of other schools there.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 there is this moment at the end of the film that I want to play.

Speaker 2 It is where there are kids in classrooms in the United States and then on the continent of Africa.

Speaker 3 Soweto.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 On May 19th,

Speaker 2 that they designate Malcolm X Day.

Speaker 2 And each student stands up and says, I am Malcolm X.

Speaker 2 Let's listen to it.

Speaker 2 May 19th, we celebrate Malcolm X's birthday because he was a great, great Afro-American. And Malcolm X is you, all of you.

Speaker 2 And you are Malcolm X.

Speaker 2 I'm Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X.
I'm Malcolm X. I'm Malcolm X.
I'm Malcolm X. I am Malcolm X.
I am Malcolm X. I am Malcolm X.
I am Malcolm X.

Speaker 8 I am Malcolm X.

Speaker 8 As Brother Malcolm said,

Speaker 8 we declare

Speaker 8 our right

Speaker 8 on this earth

Speaker 8 to be a man,

Speaker 8 to be a human being,

Speaker 8 to be given the rights

Speaker 8 of a human being,

Speaker 8 to be respected

Speaker 8 as a human being

Speaker 8 in this society,

Speaker 8 on this earth,

Speaker 8 in this day,

Speaker 8 which we intended to bring into existence.

Speaker 5 By any means necessary.

Speaker 2 That was a clip from Spike Lee's 1992 film, right? Malcolm X.

Speaker 2 It makes me emotional to hear it today, but I'll tell you that day I saw it in the theater

Speaker 2 when that...

Speaker 2 by any means necessary everybody stood up in the theater they were yelling they were screaming they were doing the fist stuff

Speaker 2 The black power fist.

Speaker 3 How old? What grade was this, my sister?

Speaker 2 Ninth grade.

Speaker 3 Ninth grade. So, first year of high school.
Let me tell you the story.

Speaker 3 I've seen a lot of people, a lot of great people,

Speaker 3 but to be in a room and directing the great Nelson Mandela

Speaker 3 for the end of the movie. And the reason why I chose that, because I read that Mr.
Mandela, who is in prison for

Speaker 3 27 years, I think. Yes.

Speaker 3 On Robin Island. He said one of the things that kept him going was autobiography of Malcolm X as told to

Speaker 3 Alex Haley.

Speaker 3 And we're going over the script, which is a quote by Malcolm X, and he said, Spike, no, he said, Mr. Lee, I cannot say

Speaker 3 by any means necessary.

Speaker 3 But I was, I had, first of all, I had the footage of him saying this. I knew I could put that in there.

Speaker 3 But it wasn't until later on I understood that because he was going to run to be president of South Africa.

Speaker 2 Mandela, yeah.

Speaker 3 And Afrikaners would use that

Speaker 3 against him. I mean, they say, I mean, we're going to kill you white folks.

Speaker 3 So he was very smart.

Speaker 3 I didn't protest. I said,

Speaker 3 it's okay.

Speaker 3 And also, one of those kids that says I'm Malcolm X.

Speaker 3 is John David Washington.

Speaker 2 Denzel Washington's son.

Speaker 3 That's who I am. He's a young.
I have to go back and look at it. Later on, start my film, Black Cleansman.
Yes.

Speaker 2 How did that idea come about to have the kids stand up and declare that classroom scene?

Speaker 3 It's a homage to Sparta kids, but also

Speaker 3 it

Speaker 3 worked also to show that

Speaker 3 we could do it then and then. The thing is that that sequence where kids stand up and school starts Soweto,

Speaker 3 but then it goes to Harlem. Yeah.
So he wanted to show the, you know, the bond between African Americans and their brothers, who's brothers and sisters who are still

Speaker 3 in the middle of the show.

Speaker 2 It's a powerful show that

Speaker 2 we are diaspora.

Speaker 3 Yes, and also apartheid was still in place.

Speaker 2 Going back, though, to that time period, you were sort of like responding to the media. You were responding to them responding to your work and

Speaker 2 the thoughts that this work would spark something within Black America.

Speaker 3 But something shifted. That there'll be uprising.
Right.

Speaker 2 And so there was a response that you were giving to the media during that time that I just really remember feeling so strong. And then something happened with you.

Speaker 2 Then you became like the person we see today, like so jovial and so open.

Speaker 3 But I was like that from the beginning. Well, you're talking about the way I was portrayed, which was not who I was.

Speaker 3 But I cannot stand silent and say that, I mean, for example, that this film was caused black folks to riot. I'm talking specifically about

Speaker 3 do the right thing. And

Speaker 3 that film got two nominations:

Speaker 3 Danny Ello

Speaker 3 for Sal

Speaker 3 and also Denzel Washer for Glory.

Speaker 3 When I saw Glory and that scene, he was getting whipped, and that lone tear went down his eye, I thought to myself, Danny, you ain't winning.

Speaker 3 This is not going to happen.

Speaker 3 And then also, also,

Speaker 3 we got, I mean, I got nominated for a screenplay.

Speaker 3 The film that won that year was Driver's Daisy. So that could tell you more than enough about the climate.

Speaker 3 Then also the people who voted and

Speaker 3 people were members of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.

Speaker 2 Did you ever feel that way, though? Like you were entitled to awards that you did not get, that you earned awards that you did not get. And where do you sit on it? Because.

Speaker 3 Well, I think that I mean, there's footage of me being

Speaker 3 not happy.

Speaker 3 The last time was with Black Classman.

Speaker 2 Which wasn't that long ago. I mean, that's...

Speaker 3 What was the name of that film? Green Book, Green Book.

Speaker 2 Oh, okay, so I won Taisie.

Speaker 3 So I said, man, every time somebody's driving somebody, I'm going to lose.

Speaker 3 Driving Daisy and Green Book.

Speaker 3 And funny thing, though, I was very upset. And I jumped out of my mouth footage of this at the Academy that night.
I jumped out of my seat, half sweet, cursing. And my wife trying to

Speaker 3 have me sit down. I'm like, just get off me.

Speaker 3 And she sits

Speaker 3 on

Speaker 3 my wife, sit my son out there to get me. And so I calmed down.

Speaker 2 If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Spike Lee. We'll be right back after a short break.
This is Fresh Air.

Speaker 1 This message comes from Shipbub. Nothing ruins your holiday faster than the customer emails like, Where's my order? Or worst of all, why can't you deliver by Christmas?

Speaker 1 But peak doesn't have to be chaotic when Shipbob's in your corner.

Speaker 1 Shipbob helps brands like Our Place, Bloom Nutrition, and Tony's win the holidays with reliable, scalable, fast, and cost-effective fulfillment. Make this your best holiday season yet with Shipbob.

Speaker 1 Go to shipbob.com/slash npr for a free quote.

Speaker 1 Support comes from UC Berkeley's online Master of Public Health program. Now more than ever, public health needs bold, informed leaders.

Speaker 1 Berkeley's flexible online program empowers professionals to advance their careers while making a real impact in their communities. Learn more at publichealth.berkeley.edu slash online.

Speaker 1 This message comes from Mint Mobile. Starting at $15 a month, make the switch at mintmobile.com/slash switch.
$45 upfront payment for three months. 5 gigabyte plan equivalent to $15 a month.

Speaker 1 Taxes and fees extra. First three months only.
See terms.

Speaker 2 It's never been a secret about the filmmakers who have inspired you over the years.

Speaker 2 I remember a few years ago you had an exhibit at the Academy Museum and like all the folks were there, all of your heroes.

Speaker 3 All of your giants.

Speaker 2 Yeah, all of your giants. For you, though, a few years ago, She's Gotta Have It was remade.

Speaker 3 Not remade.

Speaker 2 Reimagined.

Speaker 3 That's the same thing that happened with this film. People think Highest Low is not a remake of High and Low.
Right. It was reinterpretation.
Yes.

Speaker 2 That interpretation was an interpretation for the 20s, you know, the 2020s now.

Speaker 2 Your She's Gotta Have It was so subversive because it was

Speaker 2 1986 about sexual liberation, a young woman who has the freedom to choose.

Speaker 2 I just wonder, like, as you move through time and you're experiencing your own work, other folks reimagining your story for a new time. Like, it's kind of like the beauty of storytelling.

Speaker 3 But let me tell you this, though. It was only when I got into NYU graduate film school three-year program that I really got introduced to world cinema.

Speaker 3 And the first Kurosawa film that I saw that wasn't a samurai film was Rosh Shamon, which is a film about a murder and a rape and how these different characters each tell their version of the story.

Speaker 3 And that premise I use for she's going to have it. So this is not the first thing, you know, getting down with my brother Curaçao.
I got to meet too.

Speaker 2 When did you meet him?

Speaker 3 It was when he was here in the States, and at that time,

Speaker 3 Squirsace and Spielberg and Francis Ford were promoting. They produced a film.
I forgot the name of the film.

Speaker 3 And one of my prized possessions, it was in the show at the Brooklyn Museum, is a beautiful portrait. Daddy signed for me.

Speaker 3 He did the autographs with a paintbrush. Oh, he did.
Hot ink. So it's white ink and gives me a beautiful.

Speaker 3 People, you go to my Instagram, OfficialSpike Lee, you see this portrait of him, that Curse O assigned me with a paintbrush for white paint.

Speaker 2 What a moment. And what a prized possession.
Yes. Did he know and understand the impact that he had on you through your films? Did you guys explain?

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 you told him about it.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 A lot of times when you meet these giants, and you know, after a while, you go, I'm going for an hour like Spike. Oh, Oh, we get

Speaker 3 me,

Speaker 3 I have full time. I'm glad I influenced your work, but

Speaker 3 I don't have an hour right here for you to tell me that. Yeah, right, right.

Speaker 2 Spike Lee, thank you so much for this conversation.

Speaker 3 It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 2 Spike Lee's new film, Highest to Lowest, is now playing in theaters. It will be available to stream on Apple TV Plus starting September 5th.

Speaker 2 Tomorrow in Fresh Air, journalist Ruth Marcus joins us to talk about President Trump's combative Attorney General, General, Pam Bondi.

Speaker 2 In her latest piece for The New Yorker, Marcus describes how Bondi has upended the Justice Department, reversing policies and firing staff in what she calls the most convulsive transition of power since Watergate.

Speaker 2 I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air.

Speaker 2 You can also watch some of our interviews on our YouTube page at This Is Fresh Air.

Speaker 2 Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.

Speaker 2 Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Crinzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, and John Sheehan.

Speaker 2 Our digital media producer is Molly Sebi Nesper. Our consulting consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson.
Roberta Shurak directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.

Speaker 1 This message comes from Jerry. Are you tired of your car insurance rate going up even with a clean driving record? That's why there's Jerry, your proactive insurance assistant.

Speaker 1 Jerry compares rates side by side from over 50 top insurers and helps you switch with ease. Jerry even tracks market rates and alerts you when it's best to shop.
No spam calls, no hidden fees.

Speaker 1 Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year. Switch with confidence.
Download the Jerry app or visit jerry.ai/slash npr today.

Speaker 7 This message comes from Jackson. Seek clarity in retirement planning at jackson.com.

Speaker 7 Jackson is short for Jackson Financial Inc., Jackson National Life Insurance Company, Lansing, Michigan, and Jackson National Life Insurance Company of New York. Purchase New York.

Speaker 1 This message comes from NPR sponsor Viori, featuring the Performance Jogger. Visit Viori.com/slash NPR for 20% off your first purchase on any U.S.
orders over $75 and free returns. Exclusions apply.

Speaker 1 Visit the website for full terms and conditions.