Jeff Hiller's Big Break Came In His 40s

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Sierra Nevada Brewing Company, where pure ingredients and sustainable brewing meet a legacy of craft.

Share one with a friend today and taste for yourself.

Sierra Nevada, taste what matters.

Please drink responsibly.

This is fresh air.

I'm Terry Gross.

I think it's fair to say that everyone who watched the HBO series Somebody Somewhere, including me, wanted actor Jeff Hiller to be their friend.

He played Joel, a sympathetic and supportive friend with a great sense of humor.

Somebody Somewhere was the big break Hiller had been hoping for for decades.

As he writes in his new memoir, if you're obviously gay but not hot, your roles are limited.

You just play the bitchy gay, which is what he played in lots of small parts and episodes of lots of different TV shows and commercials.

More recently, he played a serial killer who targets gay men in American Horror Story.

His new memoir is called Actress of a Certain Age: My 20-Year Trail to Overnight Success.

Somebody Somewhere concluded its third and final season last December.

Now, Jeff Hiller's nominated for an Emmy for Best Supporting Actor in a Comedy Series.

The story is built around the characters of Sam, played by Bridget Everett, and Joel, Jeff Hiller's character.

When the series begins, Sam had returned from New York to Manhattan, Kansas, where she grew up, to help care for her sister who was dying of cancer.

After the sister's death, Sam stays in Kansas where her other sister still lives.

Sam has no friends there and has an argumentative relationship with her sister.

Sam feels so lost and rejected that she takes offense easily and doesn't realize that in order to avoid rejection, she's pushing people away.

But she becomes very close to Joel.

He introduces her to his found family of LGBTQ people and artists who secretly have a nighttime cabaret at the church where Joel is the pianist and has a key.

He gets her to sing again.

She's a great singer who doesn't think she's any good.

In the second episode, when they're becoming friends, she visits his home and sees a large, elaborate collage standing up against the wall in the living room.

She asks if it's his dream board, and he corrects her.

It's his vision board.

Bridget Everett's character Sam speaks first.

You really spent some time on this.

No.

You need to go to Paris.

You got an Eiffel Eiffel Tower there.

Well, just Europe.

I want to go to Europe.

Okay.

Oh, and then, of course,

everybody's hands and a heart.

Community.

Great.

Was that a blender or something?

It's a Vitamix.

I just, I really want to have a nice kitchen.

And, oh, what's this one?

Is this you and Michael and your nine adopted kids or what?

It's not nine, it's six.

Oh.

And four of them are adopted.

Yes.

Okay.

And you want to do all of this here in Kansas?

Yeah, this is where I live.

Oh,

family, prayer circles, pots with cactus and s ⁇ .

I mean, what is wrong with this?

What's wrong with this?

I'm dreaming about the future.

This is what I want.

Well, I mean,

dream all you want, Joel, but this is the future.

We're in our 40s.

And it hasn't happened yet, has it?

It hasn't happened for you.

It hasn't happened for me.

And that's because it's not going to to happen.

And it's definitely not going to happen here.

Keep cutting up your pictures, but that's the way it is.

We deserve to be happy.

I'm not sure.

I don't know.

You know what?

I think I should go.

Don't go.

I'm going to go.

Don't leave.

You're going to go.

Jeff Hiller, welcome to Fresh Air.

I love the series, and you are so great in it.

Thank you so much for being on the show.

Congratulations on the Emmy nomination and the memoir.

Thank you.

Wow, I've got a lot going on.

Yes.

So since we just heard your character Joel's vision board, let's talk about the similarities between you and Joel because there are several.

You want to point some out?

Sure.

Well, first of all, I make vision boards.

Well, I've done it twice.

I've done it twice and before the series, even.

And on one of them, I did have a Vitamix.

Like, and the writers didn't know that.

And

I had a Vitamix on my vision board, and my mom got me one for my birthday.

And

so it just feels very,

I'm very like Joel in that sense.

And, and I think I'm also

someone who is warm and

likes to laugh and is joyful.

And as you said in the intro, I've normally played sort of

rude customer service representatives.

And

so it felt like such a joy to play Joel because he did feel a lot more like me rather than putting on a scowl and acting.

It felt very...

like something I really knew how to do because he was so similar to me.

But I'm not so similar that I can look at you and say, if you sing at my party,

everything will be better in your life.

That I don't know how to do, which I feel guilty about because I think sometimes people approach me on the street wanting that.

I'll also point out you both have a very good sense of humor because, I mean, like, your thing is improv comedy.

Yes.

That's what you did for years.

So, like, you know how to be funny.

Yeah.

You're just naturally funny.

Yeah.

I hope so.

Yeah.

We'll put that to the test.

Exactly.

We'll see at the end of this interview.

Another thing you have in common with the characters, you both want children and don't have them.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah.

And most of his arc in season three is about realizing that his life is good and he's happy with his life, but he has to mourn the things that he really wanted and didn't get.

And that was a really

powerful teacher for me, too,

because I did.

It's funny, I was never one of those people that was like

carrying around a baby doll, doll, being like, I can't wait to be a parent.

But I was also never one of those people that's like, you know,

why are there kids here?

But you're at McDonald's, you know?

I'm not one of those people either.

I like kids.

I love hanging out with them.

And

I do really have this need to

provide safety for someone.

And that's the thing that I really miss by not having had kids.

But I'm almost 50.

My husband doesn't want them.

It's not like I can just, you know, toss away the pill and see what happens.

So

I think that probably is not going to happen.

And, you know, just like Joel,

I'm mourning that too.

Yeah.

How did somebody somewhere change your life?

Well, on just the most base level, I don't have to teach improv or temp or cater waiter.

I mean, like, I'm financially stable now where I wasn't before.

Um, and then it also just made me feel like

an artist.

I know that's sort of a heavy thing to say, but I, I do feel like I'm someone who had more to give than I was able to give previously.

And I feel like Joel let me show that.

And, um,

and then also it's just, you know, people in Hollywood know who I am now, whereas before nobody knew who I was.

Maybe a couple of casting directors, but but not

fancy people, not the president of HBO, surely.

And now

people know who I am.

And that's not nothing.

So I mentioned this quote in my introduction, but I'm going to mention it again.

You read, if you're gay but not hot, you play the bitchy gay.

So to prove that,

we're going to play just a few clips of you in very small parts.

Okay, so we'll start with 30 Rock.

This is an episode in which you're a flight attendant on a plane that's every all the passengers have been sitting on the plane waiting to take off for like a really long time.

So you're the flight attendant trying to like distract them by telling them that they can watch videos because they can't use the bathroom and they can't eat.

There's no food being served.

So here you are.

Excuse me.

While we're waiting to take off, we're going to go ahead and begin our in-flight entertainment, which is the feature film Legend of the Guardians, The Owls of Gahul,

and some NBC sitcoms that didn't make the schedule.

Okay, so that's funny and very well written and a very small part.

We'll move on to Law and Order Criminal Intent, Season 10.

You're part of an investigation and you're going through stolen documents.

I've been through 80% of the stolen documents and I've got nothing incriminating.

Just more internal memos, innocuous emails.

Keep going.

No,

don't bother.

There's still 8,000 pages.

Okay, a small part.

Everyone who lives in New York has been on at least one episode.

Every actor or would-be actor has been probably in at least one episode of one Law and Order franchise or another.

Okay, we move on to Broad City.

And in this, you're the owner-manager of a coffee shop.

The ladies' room has been closed for a while.

You knock on the door and find one of your employees, played by Alana Glazer, asleep on the toilet, leaning on a large bag of expensive coffee beans.

Here we go.

You are so completely fired.

Fine.

God.

But I'm at least entitled to my one free coffee a day for employees.

You made that up.

There is no one free coffee a day for employees.

You're just a thief.

Wow, did you just call me a queef?

That's sexual harassment.

Get out.

Go.

Okay.

So, point proven.

It must have been so frustrating for so many years to have like fun parts but really tiny ones like that

yeah i mean it wasn't like when i got the job playing that i was like oh no not another one of these because i the jobs were so few and far between that that was a thrill and if anything it was like oh good i have a niche and sometimes i can play kind of mean people and i'll get those jobs.

I have a friend and she's like, yeah, this Karen thing is good for me.

I can play a Karen well.

And I really identified with that.

But it was more during those long periods in between these small jobs when I would think, I know

I have more to give.

I know I could be someone who could explore rich text and

understand people's personalities and convey that.

And it was,

it wasn't especially frustrating when I would get these tiny roles.

It was frustrating that I just, in between, when I would not get anything bigger.

Because

honestly, being the guy who enhances the photo on Law and Order was a huge win.

Huge.

But I did know I had more to give.

And

when I turned 40 and I had never played anything like that, I did sort of think,

I'll never get to play anything like that.

And you feel a little powerless powerless when you're an actor because

you can't really make your own things happen.

And that's why I started writing my own shows and doing stand-up.

And that's why I love improv so much is because I could control that.

I could make a show happen.

But I did want to act in a way that was deeper.

And I'm so grateful.

to Bridget and HBO and all those people that made that show happen that I got to do that because it was,

even if we had only shot the pilot, it was just,

it felt so good to

be able to

capital A act.

And I

loved it.

Before we get to how when you were in school, you were bullied all the time and how horrible it was.

Nice tease.

Yes.

Stick around, everyone.

Let's take a short break here.

My guest is Jeff Hiller, and he's nominated for an Emmy for his performance in the HBO series Somebody's Somewhere.

Its third and final season ended last December.

His new memoir is called Actress of a Certain Age.

We'll be right back.

This is Fresh Air.

This message comes from Schwab.

At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs.

That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices.

You can invest and trade on your own.

Plus, get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs.

With award-winning service, low costs, and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab.

Visit schwab.com to learn more.

This message comes from FX's Alien Earth.

From creator Noah Hawley and executive producer Ridley Scott comes the first television series inspired by the legendary alien film franchise.

A spaceship crash lands on Earth, bringing five unique and deadly species, more terrifying than anyone could have ever imagined.

And a technological advancement marks a new dawn in the race for immortality.

FX's Alien Earth.

All new Tuesdays on FX and Hulu.

This message comes from REI Co-op, a summit view, climbing L Cap, a faster mile, or that first 5K.

It all starts here.

with gear, clothing, classes, and advice to get you there.

So you can wave to your limits as you pass them by.

Visit rei.com or your local REI co-op.

Opt outside.

This message comes from NPR sponsor, Shopify.

No idea where to sell, Shopify puts you in control of every sales channel.

It is the commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide.

Whether you're a garage entrepreneur or IPO ready, Shopify is the only tool you need to start, run, and grow your business without the struggle.

Once you've reached your audience, Shopify has the internet's best converting checkout to help you turn them from browsers to buyers.

Go to shopify.com slash NPR to take your business to the next level today.

So let's get to the bullied part.

Oh, yes.

The big payoff for the audience.

Yes.

So in real life, when you were growing up, it sounds like you didn't have friends in school.

You were bullied.

In junior high, when the bullying was at its worst and the bathroom and the gym showers were like torture chambers for you,

were you bullying yourself for being gay?

Like, were you picking on yourself, yourself, taking your cue from everybody else who was picking on you?

Yeah,

sure.

I definitely did not.

I was going to say I didn't love myself, but I didn't even like myself.

I did kind of think I deserved it because.

Deserved to be bullied?

Yeah, yeah.

And deserved to be hated because I did sort of

think I was bad, inherently bad, because I was gay and because I was,

you know, girlish and chubby and, you know, not attractive in the conventional sense.

Yeah, I did pick on myself quite a bit.

But I have to tell you, I didn't do it nearly as badly as some of the other kids.

They really went for it.

I got the gold medal there.

For you, during those years when you were bullied, church was a safe place and you were very active in it.

You went nearly every day.

There was youth group and Sunday school, after-school tutoring, handbell choir, senior choir, children's choir where you were the teen assistant.

So it was the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.

Describe like the foundation of the church.

Right.

You hear the word evangelical and it sounds pretty right-wing,

but the ELCA is actually the,

you know, slightly more progressive

arm of the Lutheran Church.

There are different factions.

And

so when I was growing up, that church was really a lot about, I don't know, social justice and

being

called by God to help people.

Not because we are

required to help people in order to get into heaven or whatever.

We have grace for that.

But

because we are

given this wonderful gift of life from God,

it's important to help other people.

And so for me, the church was the place that you went if you didn't have food, if you didn't have money to pay your rent, if you didn't have,

you know, we had clothing drives and

we always sort of

had families through this organization that we would help provide with housing and with,

you know, just whatever, toiletries, things like that.

A lot of people feel the church is a place that is oppressive and

and othering people.

And there are a lot of churches like that, and they've sort of co-opted the narrative.

But for me, the church was a place where you could be accepted and where you could be loved.

And it wasn't until I came out that I kind of realized they weren't really into gay people yet.

But they probably knew you were gay, just as like the students in your schools knew you were gay.

Yeah, no one was ever surprised when I came out.

But I think,

but I didn't realize you couldn't be a pastor and be gay.

And that has since changed.

The church now does allow openly queer pastors, but at the time you had to be celibate, whereas straight pastors could marry and have kids and things like that.

And so for me, it was like a surprise that the church was oppressive.

Yeah, so it must have made it extra confusing when you wanted to be a pastor and you couldn't because it meant you wouldn't be able to act out on your own sexuality because you'd have to be celibate, whereas straight people wouldn't have to be celibate to be a pastor.

Yeah.

And it was also, I mean, I say confusing.

It's not like I was completely unaware that gayness wasn't considered bad in the world, but it was more

insulting than confusing.

It was more like, but I've played all the, I've done it.

I've been here.

And you've been here with me and we've been together.

And how could you now say I'm not welcome?

The other thing you loved about church was the pageantry, the singing.

The church was like theater for you, and you loved theater.

You loved the whole idea of performance.

And the pastor would stand up there, you know, and kind of give a show.

It was lovely.

And did you like being in choir?

Yes, I did.

And

I found it,

I was in choir in school, in addition to at church.

And it was really, that was also sort of a safe place at school.

It was like a community.

And you all had to blend and come together.

and so

people were looking for how you could unite and everyone else in every other class was looking for how they could you know hit me or or make fun of me or or call me names and

the choir was this really unifying cohesive space

why did you feel called to be a pastor

well I do like to help people and I do want to

belong to a community.

I've since realized I'm probably not the best, like, overt leader.

I'm probably more of a follower.

But I thought I could help people in that way, and I thought I could be there not only providing sort of logistic help, like with

whatever food if you're hungry, but also emotional help, because there is such a tradition of of pastors being sort of semi-therapists too, when people are having problems.

And I thought I could do that well.

And then when I realized I couldn't do that, I thought, oh, well, then what makes sense is to go into social work or, you know, direct care, working in a shelter and then public health.

And then I realized, I'm not really good at that.

And so that's why.

I became an actor and left people not helping them at all.

But I still volunteer.

So when you left the church, did that leave a big hole in your life and in your identity?

Well, I say I left the church.

I left the want to be an ordained pastor, but I still went to church for many years.

It was a hole in my identity to no longer think I was going to be a pastor because that was sort of my whole persona was sort of this granola Christian type.

And

it was confusing.

It was harder

to admit to myself that I wanted to be an actor and to leave behind

social work and then do improv while I worked at temping at J.P.

Morgan Chase by day and then doing improv shows by night.

That was, it was a real,

yeah, it was like an identity confusing time to be like, oh, I guess I don't help people anymore.

Now I just do silly jokes in in this basement of this Christidi's grocery store.

What got you interested in improv?

My friend, my best friend Katie,

had done improv in college.

And she said, I want to go to this audition, but I'm afraid to go alone.

Will you come with me?

And I was like, oh, I could never do improv.

I'm so bad at it, but I'll go with you in case, you know, this is a cult or whatever.

And I went and I was

so good at it.

I was good at it right away.

And I

loved being good at something.

And

I wanted to do nothing but that because I had missed performing so much in the three years I was living in Denver working in social work.

And

I just loved performing.

And I loved the immediacy of the laugh from the audience.

Especially with improv,

you can kind of tailor your show to the audience, which can be, that can be bad.

You don't want to

just go dirty because you think the audience will scream at being dirty, but it is sort of a conversation about

what this particular group of people is interested in.

And so I've become really good at being

in dialogue with an audience and finding what they like.

And then

it becomes a part of the improv show, the audience.

It's not just the two scene partners doing a scene and finding where to go.

It's also the audience, too.

And I think that's, I still do improv today, even though I don't necessarily have a lot of time for it, but it's just,

it feeds me.

On the downside of improv, you say, and this is you speaking, only 1% of improv is funny.

That's a pretty terrible track record.

So

what keeps you in it if you have such a low regard for the results?

Maybe my percentage is a little bit off, but it's true.

Okay, double that.

It would be 2%.

Yeah, that's a fair.

You know,

it is an imperfect art form.

And,

you know, I also,

whenever people are like, I want to come see your improv show, I always say like, oh, it's okay.

Don't worry about it.

Because

there are people who really love improv.

And,

you know, it's sort of like jazz or something where it's like that's what I was thinking.

I was thinking it's sort of like free jazz, which seems like it's probably more fun to play than to listen to

now.

I mean, in the early days when it was radical and like something brand new, it was exciting.

Right.

But it's not always so exciting now.

But yes, I'm sorry, I interrupted you.

But you're right.

All of what you just said is completely true.

There are people, yeah, you know, those jazz heads that still love hearing all of that.

And yes, there are people, I think sometimes it is, certainly for me, I much prefer performing it than watching it.

But sometimes you can watch it and it becomes

transcendent in a way that no other art form

ever can because

it is happening in the moment.

And when you see a group of people all in the same

mind and and they find these things together,

you're not only laughing, you are on the verge of tears.

But I say that, and that is the thing that is for sure less than 1% of happening.

It's happened, you know, I've been doing improv for 25 years and it's maybe happened twice, maybe three times.

So

it's, yeah, it's an imperfect art form.

Your improv group is the Upright Citizens Brigade, which was co-founded by Amy Poehler.

You've taught there, and you've had some students in improv who became very successful.

Name some of them.

Abby Jacobson and Alana Glazer, the, from Broad City,

and some people who weren't necessarily my students, but who I was peers with,

or like I would coach their improv group, like Aubrey Plaza, Donald Glover, Darcy Cardin, Ellie Kemper.

I was on a team with Bobby Moynihan.

So, yeah, lots of people.

What was it like to see your students and your peers becoming more successful than you?

Yeah,

I never was like,

they don't deserve it.

I truly wasn't like that.

It was more like,

why can't I

get a break?

Why

all of these people who are from the same place as me are having success, but I'm not.

Now, I was only comparing myself to the people who had success.

I wasn't comparing the people who looked at me and thought I was having success because I was, you know, on law and order at that time.

So,

but I really kept thinking, it's something I'm doing.

I've done something bad.

You know, I'm too gay or I'm too ugly or I'm too big

because I'm very tall.

And so it became, it's funny, it's kind of like that question you asked earlier.

Did I bully myself?

That's, I think, that was me bullying myself.

But interestingly, now that I've had this success, I feel a lot of,

what's the word?

It's not shame.

It's, it's, uh,

confusion at why I have other friends who are also incredibly talented who haven't had the break that I've had recently.

And I'm not sure why.

I mean, I used to say, why me?

And And now I keep thinking, why not them?

And,

you know, the truth is, is showbiz ain't fair.

It's not a meritocracy.

Well, your improv skills have come in very handy in roles like playing a cockroach for a pest control company.

So tell us what that experience was like.

Explain that.

It was me and like four other UCB people, and this pest control company had us dress up like cockroaches and we stood in Union Square and handed out brochures for this

exterminator.

That's the word I'm looking for, exterminator.

And we had to pretend that we were having a party in the walls of people's apartment buildings

because

the idea was that these roaches were having parties and that's why you needed this exterminator to come in and help you out.

And it was only one day.

We got free lunch and $500.

And so I did it.

But it was one of those times where I thought,

you know, I have friends who I went to college with who own houses and they have their own washing machine in their house.

And

I am

in Union Square in a cockroach costume, hiding when I see people I know come by.

On a kind of related note, or perhaps not so much, you've been in a lot of commercials earlier in your career.

And like in some of them, like you have one line.

Like there's one commercial where your line is wedges because the woman in it is choosing between like Espadrilles or wedges.

And you're going wedges.

So how do you audition for, like, what is the audition like for an ad like that?

Well, it's so funny that you bring up that commercial because I just met the woman who wrote it.

She was at a book signing I just did, and I was like, oh my God, I had to give her a hug.

It was so exciting.

Because it really, commercials saved me so many times financially and allowing me to get health insurance through SAG.

Commercial auditions are, they're not like acting auditions.

Many auditions, you'll go in and you don't say a word.

You just stand there and smile or you mime drinking something.

It's a different type of acting.

And you really have to learn the rules.

And I was really good at following rules, and I think a lot of actors are not good at that.

And I think that's what makes me a really good guest star, too, because in a certain way, when you have tiny little roles, you just need to do this one thing so that we can get on with it.

We don't need to analyze what the character's thinking.

We don't care.

We just want you to

do the thing.

Okay, let's take another short break here, and then we'll talk some more.

If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeff Hiller.

He's nominated for an ME for his performance in the HBO series Somebody Somewhere.

His new memoir is called Actress of a Certain Age.

We'll be right back.

This is Fresh Air.

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Sutter Health.

A cancer diagnosis can be scary, which is why Sutter's compassionate team of oncologists, surgeons, and nurses work together as one dedicated team, providing personalized care for every patient.

It's a whole cancer team on your team.

Learn more at Sutterhealth.org.

This message comes from Shipbob.

For e-commerce brands scaling from tens of millions to billions of dollars in sales, there's now ShipBob Plus, a growth accelerating outsourced fulfillment solution that's tailored to your ambitious goals.

Unlock discounted shipping rates, world-class SLAs, bespoke reporting, and direct access to specialized support teams at every level of operations, all while you leverage ShipBob's scale to save money and time.

Go to shipbob.com/slash plus for a free quote.

This message comes from NPR sponsor HP.

Break language barriers by translating languages in real time with the HP AIPC.

With the right tools, work doesn't have to feel like work.

More at hp.com slash AIPC.

Now, another thing that you've done is you've auditioned a lot for Broadway shows.

You've been in off-Broadway shows.

You were in in one Broadway show,

and you sing.

And I want to play an example of you singing because you have a really nice duet with Bridget Everett in Somebody Somewhere.

And this is from, I think, the first episode, where you get her to sing at this basically like

cabaret that you've created.

at night in church when no one is looking because you have the key because you're you're the pianist for the church church.

And everybody has a great time there.

And you kind of force her up to the microphone to sing.

And you duet with her

on the song Don't Give Up, which Peter Gabriel and Kate Bush had duetted on.

So let's hear that.

And we'll pick it up in the middle so we get to you right away.

No fight left, or so it seems.

I'm a man whose dreams have all deserted.

I changed my face, I changed my name,

but no one wants you when you lose.

Don't give up,

cause you have friends.

Don't give up,

you're not beaten yet.

Don't give up.

Cause somewhere there's a place where we

look

at your head.

You worry too much.

It's gonna be alright.

When times

get rough, you can fall back

on us.

Don't give up.

Please don't give up.

Gonna walk

out of here.

I can't take

anymore.

That's a really great duet.

You both sound so good.

She sounds so good at the end there, doesn't she?

She's got a great voice.

She really does.

I know that's sort of like saying, you know, Paris is beautiful, but

she does.

She has such a great voice.

And when I read the pilot and I thought, if I get this, I get to sing a duet with Bridget Everett.

Because I was such a fan of hers before, before the show happened, because she's like a downtown star in New York City.

So it was a real thrill.

I can't believe.

Actually, when you were playing it, I was like, like, I can't believe I meant to sing a du-what with Richard Nefford on television.

So you have a great story about auditioning for Steven Sondheim.

And I think this would be a good time to tell it.

Yeah, I did audition for Stephen Sondheim in this planned revival of A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, playing a character named Hysterium, which I wouldn't be perfect for.

I don't know why somebody didn't cast me in that role.

But and I sang my song, and he was so into it, and I was so excited, and everyone was so effusive and he was just so happy and then I went home that night and you know like when you think something big is gonna happen and you like

are just like this is my new life I'm a I'm a Steven Sondheim actor and so I started watching all of these YouTube videos of interviews of Steven Sondheim and in about like I don't know, number seven or eight, someone said, do you have to pretend that you're liking a show when you're in the audience watching it?

Because people are watching you watch this show.

And he said, oh, God, no, I don't ever do that.

But I do have to pretend that every actor who auditions for me is the best thing I've ever heard or they'd all kill themselves.

And I thought, oh, no.

Maybe that's what was happening during that audition today.

And in fact, I did find out I did not get that show.

That was like my third.

Yeah, I was.

I was.

But I'm also.

I'm also used to getting the no.

And there's something in theater when you get that far along, you get the no.

And a lot of times in film and TV, you never even find out if there's a no or a yes.

It's just you get kind of ghosted.

And so there's something about hearing a no that's like, okay, well, closure.

And you just move on.

You write about having a midlife crisis when you were 40.

What was that about?

Well,

I was having this crisis because I was in a financial crunch.

I didn't have a lot of money.

I had to move from LA back to New York because I hadn't gotten a job on TV.

And then the really big thing that I sort of downplay in the book comedically is that my parents were both very, very sick.

My mom was dying, and my dad was

going through a pretty big health crisis as well.

And it just felt like everything was sad.

And

I was chasing this dream that

didn't seem like it was possible to happen because

whoever hears of someone having their big break after 40.

And now that I had a break after 40, I've heard of a lot of people.

I just didn't do the research properly.

But

I did feel like I had wasted my life.

And all I had to show for it was,

you know, credit card bills and nothing else.

I want to ask you about your mother because she sounds like such a wonderful person.

She died in

2016?

Yeah.

And like when you were growing up and you were being bullied, like she knew that you were gay, but she never said anything.

And she actually went to a gay pastor

and said, you know, what should I do?

Should I say something?

And he said, no, you have to let your son bring it up.

Don't bring it up yourself.

Yeah.

Was that the right advice, do you think?

I do.

I really do.

I think I would have been defensive if she had said something.

And

I mean,

I had been trying to do it for several months, so maybe that would have been the time to have done it.

But

I think that pastor was right.

I think you can't drag someone out of the closet.

You have to let them open the door themselves.

And the big takeaway from me was that she had done all of this research, which is so her.

I mean, it's funny, but it's also beautiful and it makes me feel so loved that she had

done all of this work to make me feel loved and safe.

And I'm so grateful for

having her, because I don't think I would have survived having

my school journey and also not having a safe home.

It would have been too much.

Well, we need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you.

If you're just joining joining us, my guest is Jeff Hiller.

He's nominated for an MA for his performance in the HBO series Somebody Somewhere.

His new memoir is called Actress of a Certain Age.

We'll be right back.

This is Fresh Air.

This message comes from BetterHelp.

With all the talk about mental health and wellness these days, it can feel like there's advice for everything.

But how do you know what actually works for you?

BetterHelp therapists have a 4.9 rating from 1.7 million client reviews.

So you're in good hands with their licensed therapists who can help figure out what's best for you.

Visit betterhelp.com slash NPR for 10% off your first month.

This message comes from NPR sponsor Capella University.

Sometimes it takes a different approach to pursue your goals.

Capella is an online university accredited by the Higher Learning Commission.

That means you can earn your degree from wherever you are and be confident your education is relevant, recognized, and respected.

A different future is closer than you think with Capella University.

Learn more about earning a relevant degree at capella.edu.

This message comes from Progressive Insurance.

Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies.

Try it at progressive.com.

Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates.

Potential savings will vary.

Not available in all states.

I want to ask you about a couple of health issues and how they affect you as an actor.

Do you mind if I bring it up?

Because you talk about it in the book.

Yeah, that's fine.

So you have, and this is a mouthful, frontal fibrosing alopecia.

Oh, you nailed it.

And morphia.

Would you describe what they are?

Sure.

Morphia is,

as I understand it,

I'm not a rheumatologist, but as I understand it, it's when your immune system thinks that the healthy layer of fat underneath your epidermis is bad and it attacks it and eats it away and then it causes your skin to scar.

And then frontal fibrosing alopecia is,

you know, I think we all know what alopecia is, just hair loss.

But

I guess on your frontal lobe,

it's like my eyebrows, I have no beard, and I have a large chunk of hair missing on the top of my head from that.

So,

and you have some like brown marks on

your chest, and The scarring.

Yeah, so if you're shirtless in a scene, the makeup people really have to go to work.

Oh, boy.

And they don't like it.

They don't like it.

And I don't blame them.

It's a lot of work.

So how is it affecting both your self-image

and your career?

Well,

with my career, it's more about

it's things like that with,

you know, in the hair and makeup trailer, you really have to go in and be like, I'm really sorry, but I have to put this little piece of hair in my head or i look strange

and

to a one people have been so supportive and

kind and and i think it it bonds us immediately um

but also

you know sometimes you get cast as the person who takes their shirt off and

Whenever an actor has their shirt off, it's either because you want to look at them and be like, wow, they are hot, or it's to be like, oh my gosh, they're so not hot.

And so

I think in that sense, they want to just see you sort of be jiggly.

They don't want to be like, wait, what are those things?

You know?

So I think

it's hurt in that sense, but it's also like, do I really want those roles where I'm like, lack of me jiggle?

Probably not.

So in that sense, I guess there's definitely been more than one commercial where I was not cast because you had to take your shirt off in the audition.

And I could could tell them that they were like, huh, what is that?

But then self-image wise, it's just one more reason that I'm uncomfortable.

One more reason that when I go to the beach, I'm like, oh, God, I'm not going to explain this to people.

That sort of a thing.

And then, you know, you hope you don't go in the beach and your fake hair flows away in the ocean.

Right.

So I have to ask you about the cover of your book.

Oh, yeah.

And the book is called Actress of a Certain Age.

Oh, yeah.

And you're pictured on it wearing your regular glasses, but over your head, you're wearing like a headscarf, not like an Islamic headscarf,

but just like the kind of headscarf that women wore a lot in like 1950s movies.

Right, when they had to ride in a convertible.

Exactly, exactly.

And I'll reference in particular here, Imitation of Life with Lana Turner.

Remember her wearing a lot of scarves like this?

Yes.

And yours is like, I have to say, it's not an attractive scarf, if you don't mind me saying that.

It's like,

Terry, that was original Mez,

I believe.

Oh, really?

Because it's like magenta and black in this, like, I don't know,

loud pattern.

But, anyways, what were you trying to conjure?

Was it like 1950s movies?

I was trying to find a photo that looked, you know, the book is called Actress of a Certain Age, and I wanted something that looked

glamorous, but also winky and campy.

And

I thought this picture fit the bill.

So I have one last question for you.

Okay.

So this is going to make both of us uncomfortable.

Oh my God, I love this preface.

Okay, so on page 62 of your book,

you write, once I was a guest on a podcast where the host tried to do that serious NPR intro voice that Terry Gross does on Fresh Air.

And the host said, my guest, Jeff Hiller, is on a new show on HBO called Somebody Out There.

Jeff, I loved Somebody Out There.

I loved everything about Somebody Out There.

And of course, the show is called Somebody Somewhere, not Somebody Out There.

But I want to get to the

serious NPR intro voice.

Since you not only do improv, but you've taught improv, How can I make my intros sound less

serious?

Oh, don't you dare.

Don't you dare.

It's part of the joy of listening to it.

I would never want you to change it.

You do that wonderful thing.

You did it today, and I got goosebumps where he said, This is fresh air.

It's like a little slide we go down.

I hope I'm not making you self-conscious.

Oh, you're too far in.

You already know your brand.

But I love it.

I would never want you to do it.

And that's why this podcaster was doing it, because

they wanted to emulate you.

They wanted to be

the best.

Oh, thank you so much.

This was so much fun to do.

Thank you so much for coming.

Thank you for having me.

I really appreciate it.

Jeff Hiller is nominated for an Emmy for his performance in the HBO series Somebody Somewhere.

Tomorrow on Fresh Air, singer, guitarist, and songwriter Charlie Crockett brings his guitar and plays some of his songs.

He won an Americana Music Award and this year was nominated for a Grammy.

He's about to tour with Leon Bridges and what's being billed as the Crooner and the Cowboy.

Crockett's the Cowboy.

He has a new album called Dollar a Day.

I hope you'll join us.

Our co-host is Tanya Mosley.

I'm Terry Gross.

This message comes from NPR sponsor, Capella University.

Sometimes it takes a different approach to pursue your goals.

Capella is an online university accredited by the Higher Learning Commission.

That means you can earn your degree from wherever you are and be confident your education is relevant, recognized, and respected.

A different future is closer than you think with Capella University.

Learn more about earning a relevant degree at capella.edu.

This message comes from ShipBob.

Chaos proof your supply chain with Shipbob Plus, a fulfillment solution that's tailored to your fast-growing brand's needs.

Save money by tapping into the scale of ShipBob's network and drive more revenue with endless omnichannel and global expansion opportunities to go from tens of millions to billions of dollars in sales, you'll unlock huge fulfillment savings, accelerated receiving times, and outbound fulfillment times, and more.

Go to shipbob.com/slash plus for a free quote.