In The Dugout With Baseball All Stars

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Speaker 3 This is Fresh Air. I'm Dave Davies.
Major League Baseball resumes today after an all-star break that showcased continuing changes in the national pastime.

Speaker 3 Tuesday's all-star game featured a robotic umpire that players could appeal to when they thought the man in blue behind the plate missed a call.

Speaker 3 And the game's 6-6 tie was decided by a first-ever home run swing-off, in which three players from each side swatted pitches thrown by a batting practice coach into the seats.

Speaker 3 The National League prevailed on a powerful performance by the Phillies' Kyle Schwarber. But many of the game's long-standing traditions endure.

Speaker 3 Managers arguing with umpires, pitchers brushing back hitters, and players of average average talent excelling with hustle and mental toughness.

Speaker 3 Today we're going to tap our archive of interviews with baseball players and managers who've given us some memorable insights into the game.

Speaker 3 We begin with Jamie Moyer, who at age 49 became the oldest pitcher ever to record a win in the majors.

Speaker 3 Never blessed with a blazing fastball, he pitched for 25 seasons and was a more effective pitcher in his 40s than in his 20s, because he used precise location and strategic thinking to get batters out, in part with the help of a sports psychologist.

Speaker 3 I spoke to Morier in 2013 when his memoir, Just Tell Me I Can't, was published. We talked about the mental and emotional side of pitching.

Speaker 3 Do you think hitters sense doubt in a pitcher?

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. Body language

Speaker 2 or your posture on the mound, the way you act and react in situations, hitters feed off of that. And you could tell on days when guys are showing bad body language on the mound,

Speaker 2 you know, it would almost be like the hitters were running up the home plate to hit. But you could also flip that too.
As a pitcher, when things were going really well, you could read hitters.

Speaker 2 If, say, you threw a pitch and a guy took the pitch and it was a called strike, and you got a reaction like, you know, his shoulders went down or he complained to the umpire.

Speaker 2 All of a sudden, now, you know, it was like, hey, that wasn't a strike. Now they've become distracted with what was going on.

Speaker 2 So now, now, you know, for me to be able to read that, and now I'm ahead in the count.

Speaker 2 Maybe now the next pitch doesn't have to be a strike, but if I can make it look like a strike as it's approaching the plate, but when it gets to the plate, it's not a strike, and I get them to offer at it.

Speaker 2 Again, they're swinging at something that they didn't really want to swing at or they weren't comfortable swinging at.

Speaker 3 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And that's being aggressive. You're taking the hitter out of his focus and reacting to what you're doing.

Speaker 3 Now, you say that a pitcher can have bad posture, which will indicate that he's frustrated. What's the posture you want to never show on the mound? And then what's the posture you do want to show?

Speaker 2 The posture that you never want to show for me is to throw a pitch. And, you know,

Speaker 2 your body gets a little droopy.

Speaker 2 You're whining.

Speaker 2 You know.

Speaker 2 Just everything kind of, your body kind of crumbles. And, you know, you catch the ball and you snap at the ball.

Speaker 2 You know, you're glaring at the umpire. You're whining to the umpire.
And that's very visible from 60 feet away.

Speaker 2 The hitter sees that, your teammates see that, the fans see that, the broadcasters see that, you know, everybody sees that.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 2 to me, you want to show absolutely nothing. You want to have strong eyes.
You want to be staring at your target, and you're really showing no emotion. And you want to show that I'm in control here.

Speaker 2 You want to get the ball back. You want to create a good tempo between pitches.
You don't want to lollygag around and kick the dirt and

Speaker 2 mosey around like

Speaker 2 this is a drudgery. You want to get the ball.
You want to get back up on the mound, take your sign and make your next pitch.

Speaker 3 You know, you pitched late in your career here in Philadelphia, so a lot of us saw a lot of Jamie Moyer. And I remember your expression on the mound.
You could never tell what you were thinking.

Speaker 2 And that's ideal. And, you know, those who watch the Phillies play, you watch Chase Utley hit.
He shows no emotion at home plate.

Speaker 2 And that's exactly, as a pitcher, that's exactly what I'm trying to do as well. You don't want to give the hitter anything to feed off of.

Speaker 3 I want to talk some more about keeping the mental edge as a pitcher and how you practiced that over the years.

Speaker 3 One of the things that you've said is that hitters had big egos and you would use their egos against them, try and get them frustrated, break their concentration.

Speaker 3 Would you say things to hitters often? Speak to them directly.

Speaker 3 There were a couple times

Speaker 2 back when David Justice was with Cleveland and I was pitching and it was in the middle of the game.

Speaker 2 We were up a couple runs and we were in a particular at-bat where it was just foul ball, foul ball, foul ball, foul ball. We got to like 9, 10, 11 pitches.

Speaker 2 And I walked towards home plate to get another ball from the umpire and I stopped and I said, David, and he kind of looked at me because you usually don't talk

Speaker 2 from pitcher to hitter.

Speaker 3 too often.

Speaker 2 And he kind of looked up at me and I said, where do you want to pitch?

Speaker 2 And he kind of looked at me like, what did you just say to me? And he said, and he just kind of pointed, you know, out in front of him like right down the middle. And I said, okay.

Speaker 2 And he wanted to fight.

Speaker 3 And I turned around.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And he wanted a fastball.
And now, you know, now for me, the cat and mouse game begins. All right.
Is he going to think I'm going to throw him a fastball? Is he going to take the pitch?

Speaker 2 Is he going to swing at it? Is it, you know, what's going to happen? So I could never tell him I'm going to throw something and throw something else because I had it already set in my mind.

Speaker 2 So I threw a fastball. He hit a home run.
Well, he started laughing around the bases. And, you know, I couldn't fault the guy, you know.
So he goes back in the dugout.

Speaker 2 He starts telling his teammates they were all laughing, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, but he was, you know, the bat was over.
And like I said, I was starting to get a little tired then.

Speaker 2 So I was like, all right, we're done. You know, you're out of here.
It's a solo home run. No big deal.
We ended up winning the game. Next day I see him and he said,

Speaker 2 That's crazy. I can't believe you did that.
And I said, well, you know, I kind of explained to him why I did it. And it's funny.

Speaker 2 I've seen him now a number of times in the the last couple of years, and every time I see him,

Speaker 2 we laugh about it. But, you know, I've done it a couple times in my career.

Speaker 3 Hang on. Explain to us why you did it.
I mean, you're serving a bunch of people.

Speaker 2 But I did it because, again, I was trying to break up that tension that he and I had created. And I was trying to get him off of what, you know, he was kind of really focused on, you know,

Speaker 2 getting a hit.

Speaker 2 Like I said, I just kept throwing pitch after pitch after pitch. Everything I threw, he fell off.

Speaker 2 So I was to the point where it was like, again, like I say, I gave up, but I wanted to try to beat him on the mental part of it, hoping that he would do something he didn't want to do. Lose his life.

Speaker 2 Right, yeah. But he stayed on course, and he beat me at my own little game.
So again, I tried to pick and choose when I would do that, but I did it a couple other times in my career. And,

Speaker 2 you know, I didn't do it real often, but it was just one of those times where that tension was building and building and building.

Speaker 3 Now, you're a pitcher that relies on accuracy and on finesse and on mixing up pitches rather than speed. You don't overpower your speech.

Speaker 2 Changing timing. What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to affect timing because that's all hitting is, is timing.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 3 So the 79-mile-an-hour pitch followed by a 62-mile-an-hour pitch can be tricky, right? Or vice versa.

Speaker 2 Right, right. Especially if I can make them look the same out of my hand.

Speaker 3 Right. But location is critical, which means that if you have an umpire that is, as they say, pinching the strike zone, calling a narrower strike zone,

Speaker 3 what I wanted to ask is, you know, it's illegal in the game. You can argue a lot of things in the game.
You're not allowed to argue balls and strikes. You can be ejected.

Speaker 2 In today's game, yes, that's the way it is.

Speaker 3 But is there a way you can work an umpire from the mound?

Speaker 3 You can.

Speaker 2 You know, you can respectfully, you know, give them a little bit of a glare or, you know, there have been times where I didn't like the way the game was going as far as balls and strikes, and I'd call my catcher out to the mound.

Speaker 2 And for no particular reason did I want to talk to my catcher.

Speaker 2 But if you stand out there long enough with the catcher the umpire will come walking out and usually I was having a conversation with the catcher when the umpire would walk out and he'd come out and say hey let's go you know let's speed it up here and I'd wait till the umpire got all the way to the mound and I would continue to talk to the catcher but I was really talking to the umpire and saying what and I'd be asking him about you know hey where was that last pitch or is my catcher blocking your pitches or you know are you having a tough day because there are a lot of times where I'd walk off the field and say, hey, bear with me, I'm having a tough day.

Speaker 2 You know, when I wasn't throwing strikes or consistent strikes.

Speaker 2 So, what I'm trying to, what I was really just trying to do was get the umpire to think about what he was calling and trying to do it in a respectful way.

Speaker 2 I don't want to be demonstrative because I do respect that he is, this is his job too.

Speaker 2 And I don't want to try to, I don't, I'm not trying to create any animosity between myself and the umpire because the umpire can really be beneficial to me.

Speaker 3 So, anybody on the stands or watching on television who looks at that encounter sees you talking to your catcher.

Speaker 3 So you're not embarrassing the umpire, you're not showing him up, you're not yelling at him, but he is hearing you make your case.

Speaker 3 Did you find it worked?

Speaker 2 At times it did. Here's another one.
Maybe we were in a key point of the game and my catcher would legitimately come out and say, hey, what do you want to do here?

Speaker 2 And I'd be like, I'd be in between thoughts. I'd be thinking about, well, maybe this pitch or maybe that pitch.
That's what I was thinking about. And I'd say to the catcher, well, what do you think?

Speaker 2 And he'd say, well, maybe a change up here. Well, at that point, the umpire would be walking out to the mound and he'd say, okay, boys, let's go.
You know, let's get back at this.

Speaker 2 And I'd, you know, and I'd make sure he was close enough and I'd say, okay, let's go with the change up. And I'd say it loud enough that the umpire could hear it.

Speaker 2 Now he would have time to think about it. And he'd be prepared for me throwing that change up.
And he usually knew where I was going to be throwing it.

Speaker 2 Now he was prepared and looking in the area that I was throwing that pitch. You know, maybe I get the benefit of the doubt and get the call because we're in a tight situation.

Speaker 3 Jamie Moyer recorded in 2013. He pitched 25 years in the major leagues and was inducted into the Seattle Mariners Hall of Fame in 2015.

Speaker 3 And as Major League Baseball marks the midpoint of its season with the All-Star Break, we're listening to some of our favorite interviews with Major League players and managers.

Speaker 3 Next up, Brad Osmas, regarded as one of the best defensive catchers ever to play the game.

Speaker 3 He spent spent 18 seasons in the major leagues, mostly for the Houston Astros, and won three gold glove awards. In 2011, I asked him about the physical and mental demands of life behind the plate.

Speaker 3 As a catcher, your role is unique. You and the pitcher are busy on every play, while seven other guys, although they will do tremendous things from time to time, are standing around.

Speaker 3 Tell us, describe, if you will, some of the physical demands of catching in the big leagues.

Speaker 4 Physically, it's mainly getting in and out of a squat. You do it not only during the course of the game, which is actually the easier part.

Speaker 4 You do it in the bullpen, you do it in spring training, you do it during the warm-ups, you do it prior to the game.

Speaker 4 At times, I've tried to total up the number of squats I've gotten into over the course of a season. And,

Speaker 4 you know, you'd have to go 150 squats a day for seven months. and you'd come up with a number.

Speaker 4 So your legs take a toll, especially when you get down to the last two months of the season in August and September, you start to feel your legs getting tired.

Speaker 4 I remember walking up the stairs one season when I had a newborn, my second daughter, and I would walk halfway up the stairs to the landing and I'd kind of have to rest

Speaker 4 because my legs were tired. So there is a physical demand mostly on your legs.

Speaker 3 One of the most important things a catcher does is to call the pitches that the pitcher is going to throw.

Speaker 3 I mean, people who watch the game know that between your legs you will drop typically, I guess, one finger to signal a fastball, and then two, three, or four for various other pitches that the pitcher might throw, you know, a curveball, a slider, a change-up.

Speaker 3 And when you see this working well, it's interesting. You will see the pitcher get the ball back and then almost go into the wind-up immediately.

Speaker 3 And I'm thinking for that to happen, the catcher must be making the decision on what pitch to call immediately, as soon as the last pitch is completed. Does it work that quickly? Is that what you do?

Speaker 4 Basically, yes. That's exactly exactly what happens.

Speaker 4 A pitch is thrown, and as soon as you've thrown it back, there's kind of a checklist that you go through. And it becomes more reflexive as you do it more and more.

Speaker 4 And a veteran catcher, a lot of the checklists, he just glosses over because he knows the answer to it.

Speaker 4 But you're really going through a bunch of different things in your mind, including what's the score, what inning win, how many outs, what's this hitter's weaknesses, what is this pitcher's strengths, who's on deck, how did we get this guy out last time, what pitches did he see?

Speaker 4 What pitch did we just throw? So, I mean, there's about 10 to a dozen things that you kind of, a checklist you go through in your mind before you put that signal down.

Speaker 3 Right. And then you can pick from four or five pitches that the pitcher throws, and it can be up or down or inside or outside.
That's a lot of options that you've got to get through in a hurry.

Speaker 4 It is, and you prepare for it. You know, it's That checklist you go through before every single pitch, but a lot of it happens beforehand.
You know, we have pitcher and catcher meetings.

Speaker 4 On the teams I played with, the catchers would get together and go over the entire offensive lineup or potential lineup, their strengths, their weaknesses, what can they run, do they hit and run?

Speaker 4 Are they bunters? Before every series,

Speaker 4 I would have a stack of graphs, and they would have each hitter.

Speaker 4 on the opposing team, what they did against right-handed, what they did against left-handed pitchers, what they did against curveballs and sliders against right-handed and left-handed pitchers, what they did against change-ups and split-fingered fastballs against right-handed, left-handed pitchers.

Speaker 4 And this all gets condensed down into

Speaker 4 basically a sheet or a chart of strengths, weaknesses.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 4 you use that as your cheat sheet before the game and when you're going over the lineup with the pitcher that day.

Speaker 4 And so this all, all this decisions that go on during the course of a game, this starts long before the games

Speaker 4 begin.

Speaker 3 How many hours a week would you spend just doing the mental work? I mean, outside the game, just studying stuff, making graphs.

Speaker 4 Well, I would do the graphs before every series, and that would take me a couple hours. And then you go over each lineup on a given day, which would only take about 20 minutes.

Speaker 4 And then I would spend another 20 minutes

Speaker 4 every game that I was catching going over the chart myself and looking at that day's opposing lineup and just giving myself a little refresher of what the strengths and weaknesses are of each player in the opposing team's lineup.

Speaker 3 I want to talk about what happens there at the plate with the umpire. I mean, you're behind the plate.
The batter's at the back of the batter's box. The ump is crouching over your shoulder.

Speaker 3 You're kind of almost a unit.

Speaker 3 Can you work an umpire? I mean, I guess one of the things you do is when a close pitch comes in, you try and frame it for the umpire and make them give it the appearance of a strike, right?

Speaker 3 And that's something I'm told you were known for doing well.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you want to get every pitch you can. And my whole premise was the less movement you had,

Speaker 4 the less distracted the umpire is, the more likely the umpire is to think it's a strike. If there's a lot of movement, he's thinking you're reaching for the ball, it can't be where you wanted it.

Speaker 4 Maybe it was a ball, or sometimes just the movement of a catcher itself can distract the umpire.

Speaker 4 So my whole theory was as little movement as possible and make the ball look like it's in the center of my body.

Speaker 4 So there was a slight shift of my upper body as I tried to catch the ball towards the center of my chest protector in a spot where the umpire could see it.

Speaker 4 I don't mean catch it literally on my chest protector, but directly in front of my sternum, I would try and catch it with slight shifts from side to side, no sudden movements.

Speaker 3 Now, I want to talk about collisions at the plate.

Speaker 3 There are some collisions in baseball, like occasionally outfielders will collide with each other or the wall, and sometimes it happens among base runners.

Speaker 3 But the one time in baseball that a collision is intentional and accepted is when a runner is coming in from third, the catcher is waiting for a throw from a fielder, and the catcher's got to catch that ball, make the tag on the runner, and if you block the plate, they're allowed to plow into you, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, absolutely. You are free game.

Speaker 3 Tell us about how that worked. I mean, would you block the plate and thereby induce a collision, or would you like to give them a path so that they would slide and try and avoid the tag?

Speaker 3 How did you approach that?

Speaker 4 You know,

Speaker 4 every play at the plate can be slightly different, but going into it, this was my general approach. The ball gets hit to the outfield.
There's a runner at second base.

Speaker 4 I know there's a possible play at the plate as soon as the ball's hit. So I get my feet set, usually at the

Speaker 4 left, the front left corner is where I put my left foot.

Speaker 4 And I kind of point my toe towards third base because if that runner slides into me, I don't want to have my toe pointed towards a pitcher's mound and now the runner slides into the side of my knee.

Speaker 4 So I'm setting my feet ahead of time. And as the play develops, you get a sense by looking back and forth and through your peripheral vision if there's going to be a play or not.

Speaker 4 And as the throw comes in, What happens more often than not is the throw takes you to where you go because you have to catch the ball and apply the tag. So you have to go where the throw is.

Speaker 4 If it does come right to you and there's time to catch the ball and set, then that's probably when you're going to get hit.

Speaker 4 The general rule as a baserunner is if you're running towards home and the catcher is about to catch the ball or already has the ball, that's when you want to hit him. That's when you want to either

Speaker 4 jostle him just before he catches it or hit him hard enough where he drops it. And that's really the only time where the

Speaker 4 contact comes into play at home plate.

Speaker 3 You want to tell us one of your more memorable encounters there?

Speaker 4 I do.

Speaker 4 One clearly stands out above the rest. I was playing in Houston, and we were playing as the Milwaukee Brewers, and a player named Scott Posednik was on second base,

Speaker 4 and there was a base hit to center field where Carlos Beltron was playing. And there was going to be a play at the plate.

Speaker 4 The throw, kind of as I described, took me a little bit to my right, and I had to reach with my gloved left hand and come back towards home plate.

Speaker 4 And as I came back towards home plate, Scott Besednik hit me on the left side of my shoulder and mask.

Speaker 4 And I was actually spun around, my helmet came flying off, and I was unconscious for about five or ten seconds.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 3 I hate to ask you this, but did you hold the ball?

Speaker 4 You know, ironically, I did. I didn't know it.
I held on to the ball and

Speaker 4 I landed face first in the dirt and the pitcher who was backing up home plate in case of an overthrow, had to come over and take the ball out of my glove while I was unconscious in case the runner at first, who had had the original singles, tried to advance to the next base.

Speaker 4 And Scott Besednik, who had plowed into me and knocked me out, was actually called out.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, typically the umpire just looks to see if the catcher holds on to the ball, and if he does, it's an out, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, generally, that's how it works. If there's a collision, they're assuming a tag was applied.
And more often than not, that's the case.

Speaker 3 Brad Osmus caught for 18 seasons in the big leagues and won three gold glove awards. He's now part of the New York Yankees coaching staff.

Speaker 3 Coming up, we'll hear about managing a team from one of the best, Tony LaRussa, and Hall of Fame catcher Mike Piazza tells us about getting beaned by Roger Clemens in 2000 and his tense confrontation with him in the World Series that followed.

Speaker 3 Also, John Powers reviews Cloud, the new psychological thriller from Japanese director Kiyoshi Kurosawa. I'm Dave Davies, and this is Fresh Air.

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Speaker 3 As Major League Baseball resumes following a memorable All-Star game, we're tapping our archives for some of our favorite baseball interviews.

Speaker 3 Tony LaRussa is considered one of the smartest and most successful managers in the game. In his 33 years as skipper of the Chicago White Sox, Oakland Athletics, and St.

Speaker 3 Louis Cardinals, he won three World Series titles and six league championships. He spoke with Terry Gross in 1989, and she asked him what he would say to a team after a loss.

Speaker 5 Well, it's a tricky thing. Talking to your players is tricky in the sense that if you have a formal meeting after every ballgame that you lose,

Speaker 5 then you're going to wear out the effect of you meeting with the team. Because you play for six months, 162 games, and if you have a great year and you win 100 games, you're going to lose 62.

Speaker 5 So I think you have to be very careful

Speaker 5 how many times you actually stand before the team and say, let's get together because I have something to say. What you do is more walk to the clubhouse.

Speaker 5 If you have a point, like last night I thought we were a little sloppy in a couple of things. You walk to the clubhouse, you say it while they're out getting undressed, and you walk out.

Speaker 5 The next day is is always a good thing to keep in mind because after a ball game, if you're upset, it may come out wrong.

Speaker 5 I try to watch that carefully because it's crucial. You can go in there and make a bad situation worse

Speaker 5 or you can do it properly. I noticed, for example, a guy that I respect a great deal, Roger Craig, who manages the Giants here.
I think he's outstanding.

Speaker 5 They had about as heartbreaking a loss as you can have on Monday night when we were winning.

Speaker 5 And he was quoted as saying the worst thing he could have done was to go into Clubhouse and ripped his team apart because their heart was broken. They played as hard as they could.

Speaker 5 They could have played better, but they couldn't have played harder. And that's to me is a key thing.
Terry, these guys are men, not machines.

Speaker 5 You look for effort first, and then you recognize that sometimes the execution is not going to be there because you just can't be perfect.

Speaker 6 What do you tell a player who could have played harder?

Speaker 5 Well, that's the one thing that you cannot tolerate. And if you make it a point of standing up before the team and saying something is important to you, then your credibility is at stake.

Speaker 5 So, for example, in my case, very clearly I state effort is the number one thing I look for day in and day out.

Speaker 5 So, if you see somebody who shorts you the effort, not only is that person, your relationship with that person affected, but all the other teammates, they're watching.

Speaker 5 So, if somebody gets by with not running a ball out or not getting the job done because they just physically didn't give you the effort, if you turn the other, you turn your cheek or ignore it, it's going to have an effect on the player and the whole team.

Speaker 5 So, in effort, now, when it comes to effort, I usually treat that right now. I'll do it right during the game.
I'll mention it. If for some reason something is distracting immediately after the game,

Speaker 5 usually in the privacy of my office, but if I think it's important enough, I think you have to confront a player right in the clubhouse.

Speaker 6 In front of other players?

Speaker 5 In front of other players.

Speaker 5 But that's a drastic one. I think if you

Speaker 5 nail a guy coming off the field in front of everybody in the dugout, it's got to be something severe.

Speaker 6 I want to read you something that Bill James wrote about you back in 1984 in describing you as a manager. See what you think of this.

Speaker 6 Bill James wrote, Tony Lewis's strategy is calculated to play on the opposing team's mind, to disrupt them. He probably does that as effectively as any other manager.

Speaker 6 Do you think that describes you as a manager?

Speaker 6 As your strategy?

Speaker 5 I think that's part of it.

Speaker 6 But how do you do it then? What's an example of

Speaker 6 disrupting the o the opposing team's mind?

Speaker 5 Well, I just

Speaker 5 you know, a lot of what I do as far as strategy is is is trying to remember w when I played. So

Speaker 5 as an example of what we try to do to disrupt the other team is more not so necessarily disrupt, but just to keep them occupied.

Speaker 5 Last night, we were losing three to one.

Speaker 5 The number two run potentially got to basebo Walter Weiss walked in the eighth inning. Time runs not bad.

Speaker 5 Normally you don't do much with the guy on first base because you don't want to lose that runner and then lose the ability to tie the game with the guy to the plate.

Speaker 5 Well, we stole second, and then we stole third. Now, Walter ended up scoring on sacrifice five, became a 3-2 game.

Speaker 5 We ended up not tying or winning that game, but the point was, from now on, when we play the Yankees or anybody else that was scouting us, they'll know even when they're behind, the A's will steal.

Speaker 5 So anytime that you put the thought of the steal in their minds, number one, the pitcher is a little bit leery of the game, the catcher is concerned, the infielders are moving around.

Speaker 5 When a guy gets to second base, for example, and they know, I mean, it's a stabbing, I think probably Bill James a couple years later would have said in 1988 or 87, the A's led the major leagues in stealing third base.

Speaker 5 So that means when you play against the A's and a guy that gets to second, one of your two infielders, a second baseman and a shortstop, is going to have to shorten up and take the stolen base away.

Speaker 5 So when he does that, he opens up a hole for the hitter. And those are the kind of things I think that we try to do offensively and defensively.

Speaker 5 And just give the club a lot of looks and get them concerned because it's too easy to play against us the other way.

Speaker 6 There's an old saying in baseball about how

Speaker 6 you know what I'm going to say here: that the best managers are mediocre players usually make really good managers. And

Speaker 3 you were a mediocre player when you were

Speaker 3 worse than mediocre.

Speaker 6 I think your batting average was 200 for you just gave me me two points about one night.

Speaker 6 198, okay.

Speaker 6 Is there truth in that, do you think?

Speaker 5 I think there's some truth in it, and I'm not making any claim about what I am as a manager,

Speaker 5 but

Speaker 5 I think there's no doubt in my mind that if you're a scuffling type player that had to survive

Speaker 5 in your scuffles, you would have had to learn a lot of the pieces of the game and play them to your max amount.

Speaker 5 You were not able to neglect base running or

Speaker 5 defensive positioning or the handling of how pitchers are handled.

Speaker 5 Sometimes if you're a better player, if you're an outstanding hitter or something, or an outstanding pitcher, then you can just do your strength so well that pieces of it are not that necessary unless you personally make it a point to be a complete player.

Speaker 5 That to me

Speaker 5 is the formula.

Speaker 5 So if I look at a star, I know a star can be an outstanding manager, but did that star have enough interest in the total game to be be involved and really want to be a great baser runner?

Speaker 5 So if you see a player who does it all and really loves the game,

Speaker 5 just being a star doesn't mean he's not going to be a good manager. I just, if you're not

Speaker 5 a good player to survive, you're forced to learn a lot about the game.

Speaker 5 And then when you get into it, I think, number one, you have those lessons, but number two, I think you do have, and here's probably the key call, Terry, I think you have a certain appreciation.

Speaker 5 of the different ranks of players.

Speaker 5 You know, I really believe that I understand what a guy who's struggling as a young player is trying to do, a bench player, a veteran player just coming off the peak of his years.

Speaker 5 So I'm not sure sometimes the star gets that appreciation unless he really is people interested.

Speaker 3 Tony LaRussa, speaking with Terry Gross, recorded in 1989. LaRussa retired from managing in 2022.

Speaker 3 Coming up, Hall of Fame slugger Mike Piazza remembers his very public confrontation with Hall of Fame pitcher Roger Clemens. This is Fresh Air.
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Speaker 3 Mike Piazza is a guy nobody expected to make it in the big leagues. He was drafted in the 62nd round, mostly because his dad was friends with Los Angeles Dodgers manager Tommy Lasorda.

Speaker 3 He turned out to be a 12-time all-star who hit 427 home runs, the most ever by a catcher, earning him a spot in the Hall of Fame.

Speaker 3 He played most of his career for the Dodgers and New York Mets in the glare of two of the nation's largest media markets.

Speaker 3 When I spoke to him in 2013 about his memoir, Long Shot, I asked about his epic confrontation with a Hall of Fame pitcher. Well, we got to talk about you and Roger Clemens.

Speaker 3 You know, the aggressive, you know, power-pitching right-hander who pitched for a lot of teams. And you really crossed his path when you were at the Mets.

Speaker 3 He was playing for the Yankees, and there was this day, July of 2000,

Speaker 3 at Shays. At that point, you had done an extremely well against him.
In 12 appearances, I think he had seven hits, three of them Homers. What happened? You tell us what happened.

Speaker 3 Well, yeah.

Speaker 7 Well, it was kind of interesting. I remember that day because I believe it was the Day Night Doubleheader.

Speaker 7 And we had actually played at Shea Stadium in the afternoon. And then the second game, because of rainout, was rescheduled for Yankee Stadium at night.

Speaker 7 So it was kind of an interesting time because there was like a festival type of atmosphere in New York and very historic.

Speaker 7 Everyone's talking about Day Night Double Header and one one game at Shea and the next game at Yankee Stadium. And I believe Doc Gooden actually beat us, ironically, at Shea Stadium.

Speaker 7 So the day didn't start out well for us.

Speaker 7 And, you know, again, I got to the night game in my first at-bat. It took a pitch strike, which I usually do in my first at-bat.
And the next pitch, obviously, was right at my head.

Speaker 7 and hit me in the helmet at the last second. I was able to put my head down and at least not get hit in the face or the eye, which I thought was very dangerous.
You know, I got into the clubhouse.

Speaker 7 You know, obviously was a little woozy. I mean, I suffered

Speaker 7 a concussion. And then I got into the clubhouse.
And then the doctor, I should say, was a Yankees doctor. And he was checking me out.

Speaker 7 And as soon as I got into the clubhouse, he said, well, Roger's on the phone.

Speaker 3 And I said, basically. Roger Clemens is calling you.

Speaker 7 Roger Clemens wanted to call you.

Speaker 2 Yeah. For the other doctor.

Speaker 7 And at that time, I was not in the mood to talk. So I basically told him where to put the phone.

Speaker 7 And I just was a little

Speaker 7 perplexed at that because I as a doctor I looked at him I said well you're here to make sure I don't have a hemorrhage or you know I'm not gonna die or anything and you know he's worried about being the telephone operator and

Speaker 7 you know after the game it's funny because you know everyone says I called a press conference only because the the media was I mean you can imagine how many media people were there and I decided to go to the media room and just basically said I thought he did it on purpose and that just touched off this drama, I guess, between him and I, you know, for a few years, which just took on a life of its own.

Speaker 3 Aaron Ross Powell, you know, there's sort of an old-school baseball attitude towards this: that,

Speaker 3 you know, throwing at players is part of the game, and you take your lumps and you don't talk about it. And it always struck me that it's one thing for a pitcher to throw at a hitter in retaliation.

Speaker 3 That's after the other team has thrown one of their guys. Not that that's the right thing to do, but when a guy's had success against you, when you've done nothing but do your job and hit the ball,

Speaker 3 to throw at somebody's head just seems just outside the spirit of the game.

Speaker 7 Irrational.

Speaker 7 No, it's true. And you're right.
I mean, I think as a pitcher, you know, as well as anybody, that they do have to pitch inside. Pitching on the inside part of the plate is very important.

Speaker 7 And again, you know, I've been in brawls before where guys got brushed back.

Speaker 7 But I think, you know, as we've said, that, you know, hitting someone in the head is definitely, I feel, crossing the line and very, very dangerous.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 3 Now, ball players get brushed back from time to time, but what you saw this ball, the two-seam fastball coming right at your face, it hits you, you're down, had a concussion.

Speaker 3 How long did the memory of that pitch coming at your face remain vivid? Is it still?

Speaker 7 Yeah, I still see it now, believe it or not.

Speaker 7 It's one of those things that's just seared in your memory.

Speaker 7 You just never forget it. I mean, I'm blessed and lucky that obviously that I was able to at least get the helmet on it.
But yeah, I mean,

Speaker 7 it's one of those things, too, where you can take a 300-pound lineman football player and a real tough guy and then put him in a cage and have the ball come at him and he looks like you know a little girl you know

Speaker 7 so it's uh one of those things as a hitter uh it's kind of like I guess a race car driver you really can't be conscious of getting into an accident because you will not you will not be able to perform so as a hitter you never and even after that I mean you you can't let it creep in your in your psyche because you will you will not be able to do your job.

Speaker 3 Was it hard getting back? It must have been hard getting back in the first time against a big league pitch and after that.

Speaker 7 I would say it was. It definitely was.
And, you know, I think my first at back was actually against Pedro Martinez, who was another guy who wasn't afraid to give you a shave. So it was,

Speaker 7 yes, you do have to discipline yourself and use every amount of your focus to block it out and get back on track because

Speaker 7 this game is not for the week.

Speaker 7 You cannot allow yourself to have anxiety up there. It will not work.

Speaker 3 Right. And you manage to continue hitting, playing well.
And so that's in July of 2000. And then

Speaker 3 as the plot would unfold in October, your team meets the Yankees in the World Series. There you are.
For people that don't remember the incident, what happens was it's, I think, a two-strike pitch.

Speaker 3 You swing and your bat shatters in two. The ball, you start down the first baseline because you're not sure where the ball is.
And then it turns out the barrel of the bat with

Speaker 3 a sharp end on it ends up next to Clemens on the mound. He picks it up and flings it.

Speaker 7 He actually caught it, believe it or not.

Speaker 3 Yeah. In the air.
Wow.

Speaker 3 On top. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And then flings it in your direction.

Speaker 8 The barrel of the bat comes back at Roger Clemens and he fires the bat back toward Piazza, who is going down the first baseline.

Speaker 8 So

Speaker 8 Roger Clemens,

Speaker 8 in essence,

Speaker 8 throws a jagged, a pointed, sharp piece of wood that ends up,

Speaker 8 what, two feet away from Mike Piazza? Yeah. Unfortunately, Piazza was looking toward Clemens when the bat was thrown over into foul territory.

Speaker 8 Had Mike had his head down running down a first baseline, he may have run right into that barrel of the bat.

Speaker 3 And then...

Speaker 3 And then his explanation to you and the umpire is, I thought it was the ball. Yeah.

Speaker 7 Still, I mean, you know, I think back and people today still ask me, what were you thinking? I said, I don't know. What was he thinking? Why didn't you ask him? He thought it was the ball.

Speaker 7 And Charlie Reliford, who was the umpire at the time, I believe, came up to me and I said, Charlie,

Speaker 7 what the explicative is he talking about? He goes, I don't know, let's play ball.

Speaker 3 And then

Speaker 7 all the other players came out, and then there was a little bit of a scrum, I guess, and it just never developed in anything. But a lot of shouting.

Speaker 7 I mean, guys from the Yankees were telling me to get back in the box, and it just was,

Speaker 7 again, one one of the most bizarre things. I've kind of surrendered to the fact that this is one of the most

Speaker 7 highlights, I guess, for lack of a better word of my career. And I just had to surrender and embrace the fact that people want to know about it.

Speaker 7 So I told them verbatim what I was thinking at the time.

Speaker 3 Aaron Powell, you and Clemens have been around each other since then, I know, and have had cordial words, I suppose.

Speaker 3 But I do want to read your description in your book.

Speaker 3 Right after you describe when he beamed you at that time in July and gave you the concussion. You write, Roger Clemens has near-perfect control.

Speaker 3 I wouldn't have batted an eye if he'd just brushed me off the plate. Of course, that's what he said he was trying to do.
And I wouldn't have thought twice about it if he'd put a ball in my ribs.

Speaker 3 But to stick one in my forehead, that's another story.

Speaker 3 Clemens had always come across to me as the playground bully, huffing and puffing and snorting and yelling at batters, doing whatever he could to intimidate them.

Speaker 3 Sounds to me like you have a pretty firm opinion of him as a player.

Speaker 7 Which some words need to be kept private.

Speaker 7 no, and you know, I've said many times, you know, as a player, you do have to admire at least competitive guys.

Speaker 7 I mean, I have always felt like in my career, I've always wanted to face the best pitchers, the closers, the guys that were, you know, the intimidators or so to speak. So I never shied away.

Speaker 7 And as you can tell by my stats, I always had pretty good bats against him as well.

Speaker 7 But

Speaker 7 yeah, I mean, you know, to me, it just seemed like he was very frustrated with my success.

Speaker 7 And as I've said said before, you know, I basically said that I thought he did obviously hit me intentionally, which, as you mentioned, was

Speaker 7 one of those unbroken rules, I guess, that maybe I broke from the old school guys that you shouldn't have said that. But I was very sensitive to it at the time, and understandably so.

Speaker 7 It was a very dangerous thing to do.

Speaker 3 Mike Piazza recorded in 2013.

Speaker 3 Finally, we have a closing thought from veteran pitcher Jamie Moyer about ballplayers' propensity to embrace embrace superstition when struggling to succeed at the game.

Speaker 2 Back when I was in Baltimore, if you remember, the movie Bull Durham. And

Speaker 2 there was a scene in the movie when somebody gave one of the players a garter belt for good luck.

Speaker 2 And I had a buddy who sent me one of those when I was struggling when I was with the Baltimore Orioles for good luck. And,

Speaker 2 you know, it was just one of those things that, you know, he said, all right, you know, I want you to wear this and, you know, it'll bring you good luck.

Speaker 2 And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, what am I going to do with this? You know, and so I thought, all right, I'll wear it. I'm thinking, well, how am I going to get this on?

Speaker 2 And, you know, I don't want to, you know, we get dressed in the clubhouse with a bunch of guys. I'm thinking, I'm not going to pull a garter out and put it on.

Speaker 2 So I would get myself dressed and I'd put it in my back pocket and go in the bathroom, in the bathroom stall, and pull my pants down, put the garter on, and then pull my pants back up and I'd go pitch with it.

Speaker 2 But I was really concerned because it was purple, purple and black. I I was really concerned that you're going to be able to see it through my white pants.

Speaker 2 So I had, you know, those long things that kind of hang down the side. I kind of had to pull those up and tuck them in the waist and, you know, and off I went.

Speaker 2 But actually the first night that I wore it, I won a game against the Red Sox and I started to wear it religiously after, or when I pitched.

Speaker 2 And my buddy that I grew up with, Scooter Myers at home, to this day still doesn't believe that I wore it, but I did.

Speaker 3 It brings up the subject of superstition, you know, and I remember remember a scene in Bull Durham where

Speaker 3 Crash Davis is talking to Annie, folks who know them, and the pitcher, Nuke Lelouch, who's all over the place, is not having sex and is on a winning streak.

Speaker 3 And there's a whole reason that Annie's angry about that. But Crash Davis, the veteran catcher, says you respect a streak.
And if a guy

Speaker 3 thinks he's winning because he's having sex or because he isn't having sex, then he is.

Speaker 3 And this raises the question, since a lot of what you've done is this really kind of rational focus. I mean, kind of bringing the powers of focus to the game, which is sort of at odds with

Speaker 3 some of the superstitions

Speaker 3 that ball players care. Are you at all a superstitious guy?

Speaker 2 I actually call it superstitious. And, you know, guys do their things.
And, you know, Wade Boggs used to eat chicken

Speaker 2 before he played.

Speaker 2 And, you know, it worked for him. And I think, you know, for some people,

Speaker 2 if they feel like that helps, then let it be. But

Speaker 2 I don't know that it really helps.

Speaker 2 It's a long season, and it can get kind of monotonous. So you kind of have fun with things, and it just kind of breaks things up at times.
But no,

Speaker 2 I'm a believer that if you can focus and you have that will of concentration, your ability will take over.

Speaker 3 Veteran pitcher Jamie Moyer recorded in 2013.

Speaker 3 Coming up, John Powers reviews Cloud, the new psychological thriller from Japanese director Kiyoshi Kurosawa. This is Fresh Air.

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Speaker 3 In the new psychological thriller Cloud, a young man earns money reselling black market goods online only to discover he's unleashed dark forces he can't control.

Speaker 3 The film, made by veteran Japanese director Kiyoshi Kurosawa, opens today in New York and around the country over the next few weeks.

Speaker 3 Our critic at large John Powers says cloud uses its wildly unpredictable story to offer a portrait of a society that's lost its bearings.

Speaker 9 It wasn't so long ago that the Internet felt like a glorious joyride into the future. One that would make us all smarter and more connected.
Alas, the dreams of digital utopia have long since curdled.

Speaker 9 What once looked like a stairway to paradise increasingly seems like the lowroad to perdition.

Speaker 9 The internet and its discontents run wild in Cloud, a strangely gripping new thriller by Kiyoshi Kurosawa, the prolifically offbeat Japanese filmmaker who spent the last four decades putting subversive spins on traditional genres.

Speaker 9 He was making alt horror before anyone was using that term.

Speaker 9 A master of existential dread, Kurosawa was early to posit a creepy side to online culture. In his 2001 movie Pulse, ghosts use the internet to invade the world of the living.

Speaker 9 And things have gotten even grimmer in cloud. The malevolence is not supernatural, but human.

Speaker 9 Masaki Suda stars as Yoshi, an affectless young factory worker who's obsessed by his side gig as an online reseller.

Speaker 9 Trading under the moniker Rattelle, he buys up things like sketchy medical devices and knock-off handbags, then resells them online at huge markups.

Speaker 9 Yoshi's only real companions are a fellow reseller, whose desperation he coolly ignores, and his girlfriend, Akiko, that's Katoni Furukawa, with whom he shares a relationship that appears less romantic than expedient.

Speaker 9 With business booming, Yoshi quits the factory and moves to a country house where he hires a sweet-faced young man as an assistant.

Speaker 9 But he's left a lot of angry people in his wake, friends he's abandoned, guys he's snookered or ripped off.

Speaker 9 And though the internet is good for his scamming, it's great at bringing together the people who hate him and fueling their resentments.

Speaker 9 What starts off as chatroom grumbling about Rattell escalates into flesh-and-blood vigilante violence.

Speaker 9 This intrusion of one reality into another is a Kurosawa trademark.

Speaker 9 His work is renowned for taking everyday reality, in this case the world of online shopping and resellers, and showing how it gets infected by malignant forces.

Speaker 9 In his masterpiece Cure, a genuinely scary and unsettling film, an eerily languid loner mysteriously transforms ordinary people into serial killers.

Speaker 9 Here, the opening half of the film is resolutely, even grubbily, down to earth.

Speaker 9 It's defined by the addictive rhythm of Yoshi's work, scooping up products cheaply, bringing them back to his unlovely apartment, posting them for sale, and then waiting for the ding of a successful successful purchase.

Speaker 9 The streets, the factory, the shops, the computer screens. Yoshi's world could hardly seem more prosaic.

Speaker 9 Yet in the second half, this ordinariness is shattered by a tense, exceedingly long action sequence in which Yoshi must fight for his survival.

Speaker 9 There are warehouse shootouts, chases through the countryside, surprise escapes, and profound personal betrayals, all building to a payoff that left me thinking of Dante.

Speaker 9 While such violence may make clouds sound Tarantino-esque, if not full-out John Wicky, Curacao is not turned on by bloodshed.

Speaker 9 In fighting for his life, Yoshi discovers things that shake him to his core. He comes to grasp who he really is, what he's capable of, and where his life is taking him.

Speaker 9 And in watching the guys who seek to harm him, we grasp that, like Yoshi, each of them is a lonely, untethered soul, egged on by worries about money, or a feeling of entrapment, or a painful sense of impotence, or sometimes just a taste for murder and mayhem.

Speaker 9 In fact, for all his genre trappings, Kurosawa has always made films that explore the fault lines in modern society.

Speaker 9 While the title Cloud partly refers to the online world, the film itself suggests that its characters are caught in a greater, deadlier cultural miasma.

Speaker 9 Yoshi and his enemies are symptoms of a dehumanizing, profit-driven society that has trained them to treat relationships as transactional, not personal, and that has turned the splendid possibilities of the internet into a catalyst for their basest impulses.

Speaker 9 Small wonder that the only character in Cloud who seems happy is the one you suspect may actually be Satan.

Speaker 3 John Powers reviewed the new film Cloud by Kiyoshi Kurosawa.

Speaker 3 On Mondays, fresh air journalist Joseph Lee talks about his new book, Nothing More of This Land, an intimate look at what it means to be a member of the Aquina Wampanoag tribe on Martha's Vineyard, an island that's both a sacred homeland and a luxury playground.

Speaker 3 I hope you can join us. For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm Dave Davies.

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