50 Years Of 'Rocky Horror'

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Speaker 2 This is Fresh Air. I'm David Bianco.

Speaker 2 anticipation.

Speaker 2 Both the stage and screen versions of The Rocky Horror Show, starring Tim Curry as an extraterrestrial visitor who believed in sexual freedom and fluid sexual identities, had beginnings that might best be described as Rocky.

Speaker 2 Richard O'Brien's stage musical, The Rocky Horror Show, began in London in 1973, ran for a while in a Los Angeles nightclub, then moved to Broadway in 1975.

Speaker 2 It opened there in March, starring Tim Curry, Richard O'Brien, and Meatloaf, and closed a month later.

Speaker 2 The movie version had been filmed before the brief Broadway run and was released later that year, but it too vanished quickly.

Speaker 2 Vanished, that is, until a year later, when a New York movie theater began hosting midnight screenings of the Rocky Horror Picture Show, launching a phenomenon that's still going strong.

Speaker 2 And next spring, the Rocky Horror Show is returning to Broadway, courtesy of a new production by the Roundabout Theater Company.

Speaker 2 The Rocky Horror Picture Show movie starred two then relatively unknown actors, Barry Bostwick and Susan Sarandon. They played young sweethearts Brad Majors and Janet Weiss.

Speaker 2 Brad and Janet are very much in love, though as the movie begins, they haven't yet given in to their passionate impulses.

Speaker 2 During a violent rainstorm, Brad and Janet seek shelter at a remote castle. It's run by Dr.
Frank N.

Speaker 2 Furter, a cross-dressing mad scientist from outer space who is self-described as a sweet transvestite from Transylvania.

Speaker 5 How'd you do, I?

Speaker 8 See, you've met my

Speaker 6 faithful hand in hand.

Speaker 5 He's just a little broad dying because

Speaker 8 when you knock,

Speaker 4 he thought you were the candy man.

Speaker 4 Don't get strung up

Speaker 6 by the way I look.

Speaker 6 Don't judge a book by its cover.

Speaker 5 I'm not much of a man by the light of day,

Speaker 6 but by night I'm one hell of a lover.

Speaker 5 I'm just a sweet transvestitor

Speaker 5 from transsexual translu.

Speaker 2 Over the course of the movie, Frank, played by Tim Curry, builds the perfect sexual partner, seduces both Brad and Janet, and ends the movie pleading in song for people to follow their own dreams, embrace and explore their own identities, and tolerate other lifestyles.

Speaker 2 Fifty years later, it's a message that still seems timely, even daring.

Speaker 2 dreamers

Speaker 2 Be

Speaker 2 yet

Speaker 7 dull dreaming

Speaker 7 Be yet

Speaker 7 dull

Speaker 7 dream

Speaker 7 Be

Speaker 7 yet

Speaker 7 dull

Speaker 7 dream

Speaker 2 Today on Fresh Air, we note the 50th anniversary of the original Broadway stage production and that same year's release of the Rocky Horror Picture Show by revisiting our 2005 interview with Tim Curry.

Speaker 2 Terry Gross spoke with him when he was about to star in another outrageous Broadway musical, Spam-A-Lot, playing King Arthur.

Speaker 2 At that point, Tim Curry's post-Rocky Horror career had included roles in the movies Clue and the Shout, the TV miniseries It, He Played Pennywise, and Rock Follies of 77, the TV series Wise Guy, and tons of voice work for animated movies and TV shows.

Speaker 2 He suffered a stroke in 2012, but at age 78 continues to provide voices for cartoons.

Speaker 2 And in 2016, he appeared as the criminologist in a Fox TV movie version of the Rocky Horror Picture Show, which starred Laverne Cox as Frankenfurter.

Speaker 2 Let's begin with a scene from the original 1975 movie version.

Speaker 2 Brad and Janet have entered the castle soaking wet, and Frankenfurter's assistants have stripped them down to their underclothes as Frank looks them over wickedly.

Speaker 12 Magenta.

Speaker 12 Columbia,

Speaker 12 go and assist Riffrath.

Speaker 12 I will entertain.

Speaker 12 Brad Majors,

Speaker 12 this is my fiancée, Janet Weiss. Weiss.

Speaker 4 Weiss?

Speaker 4 Enchanté.

Speaker 4 Well,

Speaker 4 nice.

Speaker 12 And what charming underclothes you both have. But here,

Speaker 12 put these on.

Speaker 12 They'll make you feel less

Speaker 4 vulnerable.

Speaker 12 It's not often we receive visitors here. Let alone offer them hospitality.

Speaker 12 Hospitality?

Speaker 12 All we wanted to do was to use your telephone, dammit, a reasonable request, which you've chosen to ignore. Don't be ungrateful.
Ungrateful?

Speaker 4 How forceful you are, Brad.

Speaker 12 Such a perfect specimen of manhood.

Speaker 4 So dominant.

Speaker 13 You know, like so many other of your fans, I first saw you in the Rocky Horror Picture Show in the 70s.

Speaker 13 And when you see somebody in a movie for the first time, it's sometimes hard to tell how good they are. You don't know,

Speaker 13 is this all they can do? Do they do other things too? Is this what they're really like?

Speaker 4 Or, you know, how much are they acting?

Speaker 13 And so I saw you, I guess it was probably like the late 80s,

Speaker 4 in Wise Guy, the TV series. Yes.

Speaker 13 And you played a kind of Phil Spector-ish,

Speaker 13 brilliant but crazy record producer. That's right.
And a great, really terrific performance. And

Speaker 13 I think that's when I really got the picture. Wow,

Speaker 13 he's really good at doing all kinds of things.

Speaker 4 That's so nice. I mean,

Speaker 4 it's sort of important for me because, you know,

Speaker 4 that first performance that sort of introduced me to everybody was so out there and so

Speaker 4 kind of outrageous that, you know,

Speaker 4 I was a very quiet boy for a while, you know, just

Speaker 4 to make sure that people got it, that, you know, that... wasn't necessarily who I was.
Was that because it was my first movie, you know?

Speaker 13 That was your first movie.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 How did you get the part?

Speaker 4 I got the part because I used to work a great deal at a theater in London called the Royal Court. And I guess they have a little theatre upstairs which seats about 60 people.

Speaker 4 And I did Brecht there, and

Speaker 4 I did a sort of Rudyard Kipling show there.

Speaker 4 And I guess the next show, I did a dreadful musical,

Speaker 4 a Marxist musical called Give the Gaffers Time to Love You with a director who kept saying, Barry, the second act just simply isn't Marxist enough.

Speaker 4 And that, of course,

Speaker 4 never even opened to the critics. But the next show coming in was this other musical called The Rocky Horror Show.
And

Speaker 4 originally I played Frankenführer as though he was German. It was Dr.
Frankenführer and everything was very interesting and s stupid.

Speaker 4 And then one day I heard a woman on a a bus saying, Do you have a house in Tyne or a house in the country?

Speaker 4 And I thought, yes, she should sound like the queen.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 she should sound like the queen.

Speaker 4 So,

Speaker 4 but that's how it happened. And it just started in this tiny theatre, you know, and it just took off.
like a sort of rocket.

Speaker 13 Did you like the kind of cheap horror films that it in part parodied?

Speaker 4 Oh, absolutely. And I mean, it

Speaker 4 Richard's brilliance, really, was just, you know,

Speaker 4 it was really like reaching up a hand into the zeitgeist and just grabbing, you know,

Speaker 4 horror

Speaker 4 fifties horror movies,

Speaker 4 Sandra D

Speaker 4 comic books, and fifties rock and roll, and just hurling them all together

Speaker 4 with the, some fishnet tights thrown in. And the fishnet tights really

Speaker 4 came from a brilliant costume designer called Sue Blaine, who I'd worked with before, actually,

Speaker 4 in

Speaker 4 a wonderful theatre in Scotland called the Glasgow Citizens' Theatre, where we did a production of The Maids, where I wore exactly that corset. The Jean-Genet play?

Speaker 4 Yeah, the Jean-Genet play. I played Solange, and

Speaker 4 we bought the corset for three pounds off a barrow in the market in Glasgow and wore it back to front.

Speaker 13 That's funny, you'd be wearing it in for like this transgressive playwright Genet and then this parody of everything Rocky Horror.

Speaker 4 Absolutely.

Speaker 13 Well, there's probably nothing t that can get you into character quickly, like black bikini briefs, fishnet stockings, the garter belt, the corset, the whole thing.

Speaker 4 Well, absolutely. And that was a fairly late development.
I mean, I had no idea it was going to be like that.

Speaker 13 You didn't when you accepted the part?

Speaker 4 No, no, no, no, no. I thought I'd be in a white lab coat, you know.
So

Speaker 4 how did the whole event? It was a bit of a happen? How did it all evolve then?

Speaker 4 Well, it evolved because it was much funnier that way.

Speaker 4 And I mean, the great, I thought the great gag about

Speaker 4 the way that we all looked was,

Speaker 4 and I've always said this to anybody who's ever asked me about playing Frankenfurter, if they were playing it, you know.

Speaker 4 to just never think about it as drag, because it's not. It's just what people wear in Transylvania.

Speaker 4 It's just what everybody wears in Transylvania. So just get over it, you know.
It's truck driver drag. It's not it's not about um going boop boop a doob.
It's just what they happen to wear.

Speaker 13 W I think the thing I found most amazing about the whole phenomenon of Rocky Horror was watching like the twelve year olds outside the theater parading around in their transvestite clothes.

Speaker 13 Because they were all it was just like all these twelve year olds outside the theater imitating you in in your get-up. And and you had to just kinda ask yourself, what what is going on here?

Speaker 13 What do the twelve 12-year-olds make of it? I mean, are they going through some kind of gender thing or do they just love the movie? Like, what is this about?

Speaker 4 I think it's all of the above, actually. I mean, I think, first of all, they love the movie because it's daring.
To pretty much everybody, it was daring at the time, less daring now.

Speaker 4 To them, it's daring, and it's also, I think, you know, there are several reasons why it's endured the way that it has.

Speaker 4 It's a kind of rite of passage now, I think. And

Speaker 4 actually,

Speaker 4 first of all, it's a guaranteed guaranteed weekend party to which you can go with or without a date and probably find one if you don't have one.

Speaker 4 And it's also, I think, a chance for people to

Speaker 4 try on

Speaker 4 a few roles for size, you know, figure out, help them maybe figure out their own sexuality.

Speaker 4 I mean, I think that's probably taking it a little deeper than it needs to go, but I think it has had a useful

Speaker 4 purpose in that way. And I've certainly had some very

Speaker 4 interesting and moving mail from people who have said, you know,

Speaker 4 thanks for helping me figure out who I was. You know, and that's very nice.

Speaker 13 Aaron Powell, did you ever go to one of the midnight screenings back in the 70s and

Speaker 13 watch the movie with the people who were reciting along? And when they would make a toast on screen, people would throw toast

Speaker 13 at the screen. And

Speaker 13 the whole bit. It became an incredibly participatory experience for the people who came to see it time and time again.

Speaker 4 I did go.

Speaker 4 I went a couple of times.

Speaker 4 Oddly enough,

Speaker 4 it started happening at the Waverly Theatre

Speaker 4 on 6th Avenue in the village. And ironically, I was living a block behind it on Jones Street.

Speaker 10 Oh, you're kidding.

Speaker 4 So, I would see on my way home all these people.

Speaker 4 And, you know,

Speaker 4 I got to know about it rather quickly because I was a neighbor.

Speaker 4 And finally, I went to see it. And in fact, I had to sort of call the theatre because you could never get in.
And I said, you know,

Speaker 4 I'm in it. And I'd really love to come and see it and get an Eiffel.
And

Speaker 4 the operator said, you're the third Tim Curry to call this week.

Speaker 4 So finally, I showed up.

Speaker 4 And they sort of believed me and took me in. And the word spread rather swiftly.

Speaker 4 And people were sort of coming up and touching me and running away and giggling and it was a very very peculiar experience and then finally the usher the usherette um i don't know what you call them really that's what they call them in england came and sort of dragged me out of my seat and announced that i was an imposter and threw me out of the theatre

Speaker 4 which is

Speaker 4 which is funny really did you protest i actually had well i actually had my passport on me and i i pulled it out and i said still think i'm an imposter and she said oh mr curry i'm so sorry please come back in.

Speaker 4 And I said, I wouldn't dream of coming back in.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 I saw it once on the strip in LA

Speaker 4 because

Speaker 4 I was doing a gig there with my band when I was making records. And I took them

Speaker 4 up to the balcony to see it. And I remember my drummer coming out and saying,

Speaker 4 We don't have to dress up like that, do we?

Speaker 4 I said, no,

Speaker 4 you really don't. don't, and I shan't be either.
But it was odd. I mean,

Speaker 4 it's a very peculiar experience. I mean, the first person to actually shout back in the theatre was David Bowie's first wife, Angie.
Really?

Speaker 4 I remember when Bowie came, and he brought this huge entourage, and

Speaker 4 she was with him.

Speaker 4 And when Richard O'Brien was about to kill me, she shouted, no, no, don't do it. And

Speaker 4 so I guess she was one of the first people to sort of do that. And Mark Shaman, who's sort of a famous composer now, was one of the first to actually talk back in the Waverly.

Speaker 4 I think he began it here in New York. And now, of course, it's everywhere.

Speaker 13 Your father was a chaplain in the British Navy.

Speaker 4 Yes. What did your parents think of your role in Rocky Horror?

Speaker 4 Well, he, alas, was dead because he died when I was 12.

Speaker 4 So he wasn't even aware that I was an actor, even.

Speaker 4 I think my mother,

Speaker 4 my mother, who is really like one of those sort of Auntie Python ladies,

Speaker 4 I can't imagine what's going on.

Speaker 4 Who will always have a hat.

Speaker 4 Since my first job in the theatre was hair, and

Speaker 13 you were probably naked in that, right?

Speaker 4 And I did appear naked in it. I think

Speaker 4 it was a relief to her that I actually was wearing clothes of any kind.

Speaker 4 At least you were covered by a corset and garters.

Speaker 4 She was happily unaware that

Speaker 4 part of the character, particularly Frankenfurter, at his most gracious, was based on her.

Speaker 4 In what way? Well, it was sort of her telephone voice, you know. Do you have any tattoos, Brad?

Speaker 4 My sister, when she saw it, fell on the floor and said, you know, does she know? And I said, no, she has absolutely no idea, and please don't tell her.

Speaker 4 She thought it was very, very amusing and brought all her friends. So she was pretty hip lady, my mother, and she got it.
I mean, you know,

Speaker 4 astonishingly,

Speaker 4 she loved it.

Speaker 4 She didn't like it as much as the Pirates of Penzance, which I did at Drury Lane, because the Queen Mother came to that, and that, you know, was the total seal of approval of my career.

Speaker 13 And I would bet that

Speaker 13 the Queen Mother did not go to Hare or Rocky Horror.

Speaker 4 I don't think she went to either, although Princess Margaret did come to Rocky Horror and had a wonderful time. Really? And so did Princess.
And Princess Diana

Speaker 4 actually

Speaker 4 requested to meet me because she was such a Rocky Horror fan.

Speaker 13 So did you ever meet Princess Diana?

Speaker 4 I did actually meet Princess Diana.

Speaker 4 I was doing a production of Love for Love

Speaker 4 and it was taken to Vienna for British Week and we played at the Bergtheater and

Speaker 4 Prince Charles and Princess Diana were the guests of honor and

Speaker 4 which was when she said that she very much wanted to meet me, and so they sort of put me at the end of the receiving line. And Prince Charles said, I think I've seen you on television.

Speaker 4 Haven't I seen you on television? I said, yes, sir, I'm sure you've seen me on television. Yes, I think I thought I'd seen you on television.

Speaker 4 But Diana said,

Speaker 4 You were in the Rocky Horror Show.

Speaker 4 And I said, Yes,

Speaker 4 ma'am, I was.

Speaker 4 I was, but I'm sure that you haven't seen it. She said, oh, yes.
She said, it quite completed my education.

Speaker 4 She was a very funny girl

Speaker 4 and a very beautiful one.

Speaker 4 And sort of

Speaker 4 a very wicked smile came with that sentence.

Speaker 4 She was great fun.

Speaker 2 Tim Curry, speaking to Terry Gross in 2005. A new version of The Rocky Horror Show is scheduled to arrive on Broadway next spring.

Speaker 2 After a break, we remember sports writer, author, and NPR commentator John Feinstein, who died last week at age 69. I'm David Biancooley, and this is Fresh Air.

Speaker 9 It's astounding.

Speaker 9 Time is fleeting.

Speaker 8 Madness

Speaker 9 takes its toll.

Speaker 9 But listen closely.

Speaker 9 Not for very much longer.

Speaker 9 I've got to

Speaker 9 keep control.

Speaker 9 I remember

Speaker 9 doing the time war,

Speaker 9 drinking

Speaker 9 those moments when

Speaker 9 the black mist will hit me,

Speaker 9 and the void will be calling.

Speaker 9 Let's do the time warm again.

Speaker 9 Let's do the time walk again.

Speaker 12 It's just a jump to the left.

Speaker 12 Then it's not to the right

Speaker 9 with your hands on your hips.

Speaker 9 You bring your knees inside.

Speaker 9 Maybe the film makes bounce.

Speaker 9 It really doesn't insane.

Speaker 9 Let's do the time walk again.

Speaker 9 Let's do the time

Speaker 7 It's so dreamy

Speaker 7 of fantasy free.

Speaker 4 So you can't see me.

Speaker 8 No, not at all.

Speaker 13 In another dimension, with voyeuristic intention.

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Speaker 2 John Feinstein, one of the nation's leading sports journalists, a commentator for NPR, ESPN, and the Golf Channel, and the author of more than 40 books, died last week at the age of 69.

Speaker 2 He was an ex-jock who understood the world of athletes.

Speaker 2 He was known for his insights and inside portraits of some of the most talented and temperamental characters in sports, though he was more often drawn to the obscure, struggling athlete.

Speaker 2 Feinstein began at the Washington Post as an intern in 1977 and covered the police and the courts before turning to sports reporting. He later became a columnist.

Speaker 2 In 1985, he took a leave of absence from the Post to research and write his first book, Season on the Brink, about his year shadowing the volatile Indiana basketball coach Bobby Knight.

Speaker 2 It became a bestseller, as did his book, A Good Walk Spoiled, a behind-the-scenes look at the pro golf tour.

Speaker 2 His book, A Civil War, was about the fierce rivalry between the Army and Navy college football teams.

Speaker 2 He also wrote books about tennis, minor league baseball, and a series of sports-based mysteries for young readers.

Speaker 2 John Feinstein spoke with Dave Davies in 2011 upon the publication of his book, One-on-One, Behind the Scenes with the Greats in the Game.

Speaker 10 Well, John Feinstein, welcome back to Fresh Air. I want to talk with a basic staple of sports reporting, and that's the locker room interview after the game when guys gather around athletes.

Speaker 10 And I want to just call on my limited experience here. Back in the 1980s, NPR relied on its member stations for a lot of its sports reporting.

Speaker 10 And although I mostly covered politicians and elected officials, I did cover some big sporting events.

Speaker 10 And what I noticed in the athletes' locker rooms was how relatively timid the sports reporters seemed to be about asking a tough question.

Speaker 10 And it occurred to me that elected officials and politicians need the media. They have some obligation to talk.

Speaker 4 Athletes really don't need sports journalists, do they?

Speaker 11 No, it's a very good point. And they behave that way a lot of the time because they're not trying to get elected to anything.
They're not trying to sell a program to anything.

Speaker 11 They just have to perform on the field, on the court, wherever they might happen to be, the golf course.

Speaker 11 And

Speaker 11 there is a great disdain for the media among many, if not most, in sports. And the locker room is their domain.

Speaker 11 Now, things have changed since the 80s in that for the most part, we're pretty much banned from locker rooms nowadays.

Speaker 11 The creation of the interview room, I think, is one of the worst things that's ever happened to sports journalism, because if you think the answers in a locker room are rehearsed and canned and clichéd, stepping up, giving 110%, wanting to win for my teammates, it's 50 times worse in an interview room.

Speaker 11 At least in a locker room, if you have the time and or the patience and kind of outweight the hordes and can get with a guy one-on-one, especially if you know him a little bit, you might be able to get a little better answer than that.

Speaker 11 But more and more now, teams on the college level, certainly, and more and more on the professional level are banning the media from the locker rooms after games and saying, go to an interview room and we'll bring you somebody and put them behind a microphone.

Speaker 10 Right. And a lot of your book is about the business of getting meaningful access to players and coaches' moments in which they may be candid.

Speaker 10 How did you learn that?

Speaker 11 Well, I think it goes back to

Speaker 11 my first days as a reporter when I was still in college.

Speaker 11 It became apparent to me that the more you could see what was real as opposed to what was served up to you, whether it was in a locker room or in a practice or if you could get somebody to let you into a team meeting or if you could get an athlete away from their domain and put them in a restaurant for lunch or dinner or anything.

Speaker 11 But I think I really learned about that, not covering sports, but covering news. When I was first at the Washington Post, I spent several years covering cops and courts and politics.

Speaker 11 And I learned from that that the less formal the situation was, the more you learned.

Speaker 11 And I do some of my best reporting without a notebook in my hands, when I'm just talking to someone and I ask about their family or about last night's ball game, and then eventually work my way towards a real question rather than just walking up with a notebook or a tape recorder in my hands.

Speaker 11 Because when you do that, that's what you are. You're a notebook or a tape recorder.
You're not another person. When you walk up and say, hey, can you believe what happened in last night's game? Then

Speaker 11 you establish common ground and you become a person rather than just a reporter.

Speaker 10 Right. But then the athlete thinks he's having a conversation when he's in fact giving you on-the-record comment.
Is that an issue?

Speaker 11 You know, it's never been for me because

Speaker 11 what I have always done is if someone says something to me that I think might be controversial in some way or it's something I didn't know that would thus be news, I'll usually at that point I'll take out a notebook or something and I'll say, let me make sure I have this, get this right or do you mind if I quote you on that or something.

Speaker 11 I don't want there to be any doubt. I don't want anybody I'm working with to be surprised.
And I have only once in my career had an athlete claim that he thought he was off the record with me.

Speaker 11 And that was 30 years ago when I was a young reporter at the Post. I got sent to the home of John Riggins, the star running back who was holding out.

Speaker 11 And he was in Lawrence, Kansas, and he was refusing to talk to anybody in the media. And I was the low guy on the totem pole at the Post.

Speaker 11 And my boss said, just go knock on John Riggins' door and see if he'll talk to you, which I did. And John Riggins basically said, get out of here.
I'm not talking to anybody.

Speaker 11 And I said to him, look, John, if I go back with nothing, I'm going to be fired.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 11 he looked at me, said, I'll call your boss and tell him that I wouldn't talk to you. And I said, that's not good enough.
Can't you just tell me what it is you want? And he started talking.

Speaker 11 about that it was the Redskins move and Bobby Beather, the general manager, needed to do this and that. And I never took out a notebook.

Speaker 11 And I stood there and I asked him more questions and we talked for, I don't know, 10 or 12 minutes.

Speaker 11 And I went back to my car, wrote down everything I could remember, didn't quote him specifically, but paraphrased everything that he had said to me in the story.

Speaker 11 And when another TV reporter called Riggins the next day and said, why would you talk to that guy when you're friends with us and you don't even know him?

Speaker 4 Riggins said, Well, I thought we were off the record.

Speaker 11 And when the guy called me from the TV station and said, John said he thought you were off the record, I said, Did he really think I flew to Lawrence, Kansas, because I was personally curious about his contract?

Speaker 11 And that's the only time anybody has ever said to me, geez, I thought we were off the record.

Speaker 10 Now, the other issue you have is you establish friendly relationships with athletes, and then you have to sometimes be tough on them.

Speaker 10 How do you handle that?

Speaker 11 It's It's the hardest thing you have to do, or at least for me. And I have run into it specifically as I wrote about in the book with Jim Valvano, who I had a very close relationship with.

Speaker 11 I would sit in his office when he was the coach at North Carolina State and had won the national championship at 3 o'clock in the morning and listened to him talk about looking for the next thing in his life.

Speaker 11 And he felt as if he'd done coaching at the age of 37. And then came this scandal, for lack of a better word, at North Carolina State, where the NCAA came in and investigated.

Speaker 11 And Jim eventually was forced to resign. And I wrote at one point that he sounded Nixonian when he was making his excuses for what had gone on at NC State.
And he was furious with me.

Speaker 11 And he said, how could you write that about me? And I said, because

Speaker 11 A, I thought it was true, Jim, but beyond that, if I just blindly defended you, then when I legitimately defend you, it'll have no meaning. And he said, it would have meant something to me.

Speaker 11 And that hurt because I liked Jim Valvano and I understood the point he was making. I thought you were my friend, and then you turned around and called me Nixonian.

Speaker 11 And it was a very hard thing for me emotionally to deal with. And we did before he died of cancer in 1993.
We mended the fence.

Speaker 11 And in fact, Jim, the last time I ever spoke to him, said, you were probably a better friend to me than the people around me who were telling me I hadn't done anything wrong.

Speaker 11 But it is a very hard line to figure out which side of it you belong on.

Speaker 2 John Feinstein, speaking to Dave Davies in 2011. More after a break.
This is Fresh Air.

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Speaker 10 You've written a lot about golf, some great stuff. And I have to ask you about Tiger Woods, who

Speaker 10 you know, was just such an incredible talent when he arrived. I mean, he dominated his sport in a way that is rare in athletics.
What was he like when you first got to know him on the tour?

Speaker 11 You know, I don't think anybody who does what I do has ever really known Tiger.

Speaker 11 I do vividly remember the first time I ever saw Tiger Woods because it turned out to be a little bit of a harbinger in a way.

Speaker 11 He was still an amateur. He was just a kid.
He was 18. He probably looked 12 at the time.

Speaker 11 He was playing in Arnold Palmer's tournament down at Bay Hill in 1994, and I was working on A Good Walk Spoiled, my first golf book, and I was standing on the range with three players, Davis Love, Billy Andrade, Jeff Sluman, and Billy Andrade kind of tapped me on the shoulder and said, see that kid down there?

Speaker 11 And I looked down and there was this skinny kid hitting balls and I said, yeah? And he said, that's the next one. That's Tiger Woods.
And I'd heard the name, but I wasn't that.

Speaker 11 interested to be honest Dave because you hear all the time about this guy's the next one in sports, this guy's the next one in sports. I always tend to be skeptical and say, okay, show me.

Speaker 11 And as luck would have it, I happened to walk off the range a little while later, about 10 yards behind Tiger Woods.

Speaker 11 He was walking alone with his caddy, and there were maybe 15 or 20 kids standing behind the ropes trying to get the autographs of any player walking on or off the range.

Speaker 11 It was a practice day, and most players will stop in that circumstance and sign a few autographs.

Speaker 11 Tiger Woods put his head down and walked right between the kids, never looked left or right, and just kept going. And I remember thinking to myself, who does this guy think he is?

Speaker 11 Well, as it turned out, he thought he was Tiger Woods. So I think he had it right.
But my early memories of Tiger are that he was always programmed and his golf was overwhelming.

Speaker 11 But I remember feeling disappointed because he was obviously very bright. He'd gone to Stanford for a couple of years.

Speaker 11 You could tell just by the way he reacted to things that he got things quicker than most athletes did. but he wasn't giving anything up.

Speaker 11 His father Earl had programmed him, don't give away anything for free. So you remember those clichés I talked about that you get in the interview room? He was a cliché machine.

Speaker 11 And if you tried to talk to him one-on-one, he really had no interest.

Speaker 11 And the only time I really ever had a lengthy one-on-one conversation with him was in 1998, after he'd won the Masters and had become a superstar at 21.

Speaker 11 And he actually reached out to me because he was, I think, surprised, I guess, that I was one of the very few members of the media who was at all critical of his behavior.

Speaker 11 None of us could criticize his golf. And other players had told him, look, John's a pretty fair guy.
If you've got a problem with him, you should sit down and talk to him about it.

Speaker 11 And to his everlasting credit, he did. We went to dinner at a restaurant in San Diego and talked for about four hours.

Speaker 11 And it was very intense because Tiger was very smart, came right at you when he disagreed with you. We argued a lot about his father.

Speaker 10 And one of the things you'd written about his father was that his father was, you know, the kind of manipulative sports dad,

Speaker 11 classic stage father.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 11 Yes, exactly.

Speaker 11 And in fact, what I had done was I had compared him in a piece I'd written in Newsweek to Stefano Capriotti, who was the father of Jennifer Capriotti, who you might remember years ago, came on the tennis tour, took it by storm.

Speaker 11 She was going to be the next Chris Everett. Her father was making deals for her left and right when she was 13 years old.

Speaker 11 And I compared Earl Woods to Stefano Caprioti, which infuriated both Tiger and Earl. And I remember saying to him, if your father doesn't like the spotlight,

Speaker 11 why did he write a book about how he made you into Tiger Woods? And Tiger said, well, you know, so many people asked him about it. He thought it'd be easier just to write a book.
And I said, really?

Speaker 11 Then why did he write the second book? Because there was a sequel. Tiger looked at me and he smiled.
He said, okay, you got me on that one.

Speaker 11 But it was one of the few concessions he made the entire evening. We argued about a lot of different things, but it was a fascinating experience.

Speaker 11 And I hoped that it would sort of be a jumping off point where Tiger and I would have a relationship where even if we disagreed, we would talk about it. And it lasted for a little while that way.

Speaker 11 And then I really believe to this day that his father said to him, You stay away from him. I don't like him.
I don't want you talking to him.

Speaker 11 And that was really kind of the end of any one-on-one other than hi Tiger, hi, John, between the two of us.

Speaker 10 You have some great stories in here about tennis. And one of them I liked was when you followed John McEnroe into the locker room at the U.S.
Open because he wasn't talking to anybody.

Speaker 10 And this was an example of you

Speaker 10 just getting access that other people couldn't get and it paying off.

Speaker 4 Tell us what happened.

Speaker 11 Well, more accurately, I think it was that I knew back in those days that I could go into the locker room and because Barry Lorge, my colleague from the Washington Post, was writing a lead and I was doing the secondary story, the sidebar, I had a little more time.

Speaker 11 And John had come in. He'd just won the U.S.
Open. He'd beaten Bjorn Borg in five sets.
This was a few months after their historic five-set match at Wimbledon.

Speaker 11 And Borg had come back from two sets down to tie it at two sets apiece. And I'll never forget sitting there in New York City.
John McEnroe grew up less than five miles from the stadium in Flushing.

Speaker 11 And the entire crowd was on its feet cheering for Borg. And I couldn't imagine what that felt like for McEnroe.

Speaker 11 And he somehow won the fifth set, came in, gave kind of a desultory desultory press conference.

Speaker 11 Even McEnroe can be desultory in a press conference. And I thought, well, maybe if I go back to the locker room, I can get something.
I just wanted to ask him one question.

Speaker 11 How did that feel at that moment at the end of the fourth set when 20,000 people were cheering for a guy from Sweden in New York City?

Speaker 11 And I walked back in, and McEnroe was the only guy in the locker room because the tournament was over. Borg had left by car as soon as the awards ceremony was over.

Speaker 11 And it was just McEnroe and me in the locker room. At that point, I I hadn't met him.
I was very young, you know, the kid reporter at the Washington Post.

Speaker 11 And I introduced myself and John kind of looked at me like, yeah.

Speaker 11 And I said, I just want to ask you one question. And I asked him the question about how it felt at the end of that fourth set.
And Dave, he just went off.

Speaker 11 He said, could you believe that? Could you, do you think if that match was in Sweden, there'd be one person pulling for me? He said, I know I misbehave and I understand why people get up.

Speaker 11 I didn't ask another question for 30 minutes. The only challenge was, I didn't have a tape recorder, was trying to write everything down because he was talking so fast.

Speaker 11 So I ended up, I was supposed to write a 16-inch sidebar, and I came back and told Barry Lorge what I'd gotten. And he called the desk and said, you got to get John some more space.

Speaker 11 And I ended up writing 40 inches, and they ran every inch of it. So a lot of times people have asked me, well, how did you get Knight? to give you the access?

Speaker 11 How did you get this guy to give you the access? The answer almost always is because I asked.

Speaker 11 It's really that simple.

Speaker 4 One more thing.

Speaker 10 You You know, I've noticed in my career writing mostly about things other than sports, that when I occasionally have done a story at a newspaper that dealt with sports, like I did a piece once about Philadelphia Eagles tickets and whether they were distributed fairly.

Speaker 10 And I got many, many times the email that I did when I did something about the mayor. And it's clear that sports

Speaker 10 is something that people are really, really passionate about.

Speaker 4 But I also wonder, are there times that you want to just tell people, folks,

Speaker 10 these are games. This is not life and death.

Speaker 11 Absolutely, yes, but there's an element of no. And the absolute yes is, of course, they're just games.
And it's not life and death.

Speaker 11 And I wince every time there's a genuine tragedy connected to sports when people say, well, this puts life in perspective. Because you know what? It doesn't.

Speaker 11 The next day, fans are going to be screaming about a losing coach or a bad call or something like that.

Speaker 11 It's human nature. It's sports human nature.
And yes,

Speaker 11 I want to say enough already.

Speaker 11 But there's another part of me, Dave, that believes sports does play a very important role in our society because it does give people a place to go away from the often harsh realities of life.

Speaker 11 This was driven home to me in a very personal way when my mother died in 1993.

Speaker 11 And she died very suddenly and she died young.

Speaker 11 and it was the the the worst thing I've ever been through in my life and and I went to bed every night and I couldn't sleep I just couldn't possibly sleep and the only thing that distracted me from thinking about my mom was to think about games to think about games I'd played in as a kid or swim meets I'd been in as a kid and games I'd covered and stories I'd been a part of and and people I'd met in sports and trying, I would literally sit there and try to remember every single play in game five of the 1969 World Series when my beloved and now pathetic Mets beat the Baltimore Orioles.

Speaker 11 And that got me through that period in my life.

Speaker 10 Well, John Feinstein, thanks so much for spending some time with us.

Speaker 11 Dave, thanks for having me again. I enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 John Feinstein speaking to Dave Davies in 2011. The author, sports writer, and NPR commentator died last week.
He was 69 years old. This is Fresh Air.

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Speaker 14 An NCIDQ certified interior designer must complete a minimum of six years of specialized education and work experience.

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Speaker 2 In The Alto Knights, a new biographical crime drama directed by Barry Levinson, Robert De Niro plays two leading roles.

Speaker 2 He stars as both Frank Costello and Vito Genovese, two Italian-American mob bosses who were longtime friends but became rivals in the 1950s.

Speaker 2 The movie opens in theaters this week, and our film critic Justin Chang has this review.

Speaker 4 It's been 10 years since Barry Levinson directed a new feature.

Speaker 4 And if that seems like a long wait, I should should note that it's taken 50 years for the Alto Knights, his new movie, to make it to the big screen.

Speaker 4 The idea was first pitched in the 1970s, not long after the New York City crime lord Frank Costello, known as the Prime Minister of the Underworld, died at the age of 82.

Speaker 4 But the film languished in development hell for decades, and only got the green light a few years ago, presumably on the strength of a major casting gimmick.

Speaker 4 Both Costello and his notorious friend-tern rival, Vito Genovese, are played by the same actor, Robert De Niro.

Speaker 4 That's one way to liven up the formula, I suppose. De Niro has played many mobsters, in The Godfather Part II, The Untouchables, Goodfellows, and The Irishman, for starters.

Speaker 4 He's riffing on a lot of those characters in The Alto Knights, which often plays like a hectic rehash of mob drama clichés. It's not entirely the movie's fault.

Speaker 4 The real-life events it's tackling here are why some of those clichés exist. Frank Costello was the inspiration for the godfather himself, Don Vito Corleone.

Speaker 4 The Alto Knights begins with a bang in 1957.

Speaker 4 Frank, the big boss of the Luciano crime family, is shot in the lobby of his New York apartment building. Frank survives, and knows immediately that it was Vito Genovese who ordered the the hit.

Speaker 4 But he keeps this a secret. He isn't interested in revenge, and he doesn't want to start a mob war.

Speaker 4 From there, the story flashes back about 50 years, recounting in rapid-fire fashion how young Frank and Vito befriended each other in New York, where they hung out at the Alto Knights Social Club, a hive of gangster activity.

Speaker 4 Both men became bootleggers during Prohibition, rising through the ranks of the Luciano family. Vito became boss, but fled to Italy to avoid a murder rap.

Speaker 4 By the time Vito returned years later, after World War II, Frank was in charge of a prosperous criminal empire, protected by paid-off cops and politicians.

Speaker 4 Most of this backstory passes by in a barely coherent rush, which is a shame.

Speaker 4 Given his knack for dramas about immigrant experiences and boyhood friendships, in films like Diner, Avalon, and Liberty Heights, Levinson could have teased out something rich from Frank and Vito's early years.

Speaker 4 But the Alto Knights, which was written by Goodfellows screenwriter Nicholas Pelleggi, is eager to race ahead to the tug-of-war between De Niro and De Niro.

Speaker 4 Vito, who's violent and irrationally jealous, wants to seize back control of the outfit and turn it into a drug-dealing operation.

Speaker 4 Frank is trying to cultivate a legitimate, respectable image, and tries to talk Vito out of it.

Speaker 15 You're going down a very dangerous road. You know that.
And we ain't been down dangerous roads before. All of a sudden, we can't go down dangerous roads.

Speaker 15 This is a road that I'm not going down because you're going to take us all down. This is not the way.
You know, there's just a matter of time you're going to get pinched.

Speaker 15 But don't forget, you're a racketeer. You're a gangster.
Come on. All of a sudden you want to be half in, half out, half a racketeer.
You can't have it both ways. You're either in or you're out.

Speaker 15 And whether you're half in or half out, that don't mean you ain't going to get caught the the same way I could get caught or I could go down. It's the same thing.
Come on, don't be naive.

Speaker 15 We don't control this. Somebody else does it.
This is a death sentence.

Speaker 15 It's a big, big mistake. Look, you do what you want.
You want to be a diplomat, that's your business. Me? I'm a gangster.
I'm a racketeer. That's it.
That's it. That's the life.

Speaker 4 I'm not sure exactly what the movie gains from having one actor play both roles, unless it's trying to suggest that Frank and Vito are two two sides of the same corrupt coin.

Speaker 4 Whatever the case, De Niro is clearly at home with this gangland material, and it's fun to watch him argue with himself.

Speaker 4 As Vito, De Niro seems to be channeling Joe Pesci's hothead from Goodfellas, barking and cursing under a layer of prosthetic pancake. As Frank, he smiles, shrugs, and plays it cool.

Speaker 4 Frank doesn't want any trouble.

Speaker 4 He just wants to rake in the dough, hobnob with philanthropists and politicians, and spend his nights at home watching TV with his wife, played by a frowny Deborah Messing.

Speaker 4 They have a loving, stable marriage, unlike Vito and his fiery wife, Anna, played by a very good Catherine Narducci.

Speaker 4 The Alto Knights doesn't have many more ideas than this good mobster, bad mobster dynamic.

Speaker 4 The script does pull together a lot of events from the 1950s, including a Senate investigation into interstate crimes and a historic summit that brought together hundreds of mob bosses from around the country.

Speaker 4 But the movie doesn't seem to trust its own story.

Speaker 4 Barely a scene goes by that isn't embellished with popping flash bulbs and giant newspaper headlines, as if Levinson were trying to convince us that we were watching history in the making.

Speaker 4 Still, De Niro's performances do keep you watching, or at least one of them does.

Speaker 4 Vito may be little more than a walking tantrum, but Frank makes for good company, especially in those moments toward the end when he seriously considers bowing to Vito and stepping aside.

Speaker 4 So what if De Niro is playing a sentimentalized version of a ruthless crook?

Speaker 4 Hollywood gangster movies, even the ones as dubious and derivative as this one, have always known a thing or two about selling us a beautiful lie.

Speaker 2 Justin Chang is a film critic for The New Yorker. He reviewed The Alto Knights, starring Robert De Niro.

Speaker 2 On Monday's show, legal scholar Ellie Mastahl joins us to talk about the 10 laws he says are ruining America.

Speaker 2 In his new book, Bad Law, he argues that our country's laws on immigration, abortion, and voting rights don't reflect the will of most Americans, and we'd be better off abolishing them and starting over.

Speaker 2 I hope you can join us. For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm David Biancoole.

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