Roots of R&B: Charles Brown & Ray Charles

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From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with Fresh Air Weekend.

Today we continue our R ⁇ B, Rockabilly, and early rock and roll week with two interviews from our our archive.

We'll hear from RB singer and pianist Charles Brown.

Like a shipbuild on the sea.

In the 1940s, his sound was inspired by Nat King Cole's trio.

His popularity continued into the early 1960s when Merry Christmas, Baby, and Please Come Home for Christmas topped the charts.

Brown's style influenced many musicians, including

See the girl with the diamond ring?

She knows how to shake that thing.

All right, now, now.

Ray Charles, who we'll hear from later in a 1998 interview.

That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.

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Tell you, Paul.

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This is Fresh Air Weekend.

I'm Terry Gross.

Today's show is part of our archive series, RB, Rockabilly, and Early Rock and Roll.

First, we'll listen back to my interview with Charles Brown, who liked to describe himself as a singer of blues ballads.

In the 1940s, he performed with Johnny Moore's Three Blazers, whose sound was inspired by Nat Cole's trio.

Brown had nine top ten RB singles between 1946 and 1952, either as a solo artist or as a member of the Blazers.

His popularity continued into the early 1960s when Merry Christmas Baby and Please Come Home for Christmas topped the charts.

In the 1980s, he made a comeback.

Brown influenced a number of musicians, including Otis Redding, James Brown, Sam Cooke, Billy Eckstein, Bruce Brinkstein, and Ray Charles, who we'll hear from later in the show.

I spoke with Charles Brown in 1989.

He died 10 years later at the age of 76.

He came to the Fresh Air Studio, sat at the piano, and sang some songs.

Charles Brown, a pleasure to have you here.

Let me ask you to open with the song that became your first big hit back in 1946, Drift and Blues, a song you wrote.

Yes.

It moved Louis Jordan out of first place on the cash box magazine and Billboard.

Well, I'm drifting and I'm drifting

like a ship out on the sea.

Drifted and I'm I'm drifting

like a ship out on the sea.

Well, I ain't got nobody

world to care for me

if my baby

would only take me back again.

God, baby,

only take me back again.

No, I'm not good for nothing, baby.

Charles found a path for free.

Good, I give you all my money.

What more can I do?

I give you all my money.

What more can I do?

You just a good little girl,

you just won't be true

bye-bye, baby

Baby, bye-bye, bye-bye

Bye-bye, baby

Baby, bye-bye bye-bye

It's gonna be too late, daily

I'll be too far away.

Ooh,

bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

Charles Brown, now that we heard one of your first big hits, why don't you play something new for us?

This is a tune that I had the pleasure of writing.

It's called Everybody Looking for Somebody to Love, Even at My Age.

So we hope you like it.

I'm trying

hard to find

someone to love

to ease my mind.

Seems I have

a world of trouble

on my mind.

This heavy load

burdens me

I'm gonna lay it down

so I can be free

I must find

someone to love

for me

right now

today

Every time

I read the daily news

The headline print

gives me the blues

Why is there

so much trouble in the times

There must be someone

far away

and enjoy my life till I'm old and grey

I must find

someone to love

for me

right now

today

All my friends

Seem far away

There's no family love

seems it's gone away

I read the papers

each and every day day

that hate prevails,

seems just here to stay.

I must find

someone to love

to ease my mind.

That's all I'm thinking of.

I must find

someone to love

for me

right now,

today.

That's a great song.

I like that a lot.

You like that?

Oh, yeah.

Thank you.

You know, I want to mention to our listeners that

in the 1940s, you spent a lot of time

playing with Johnny Moore's Three Blazers.

And Johnny Moore was the the brother of Oscar Moore, who was the guitarist with the Nat Cole trio.

And listening to your early records, it sounds like you were really influenced by Nat Cole when you were starting out in the 40s to record.

Well, you know, we had a trio at the time, and I didn't ever go see Nat Cole.

Really?

And I didn't want to see him until I had established a style of my own.

Because usually things wipe off on you when you hear someone else how you sit at the piano.

And I never did see him sit at the piano until until I was established myself.

Because actually, I didn't know what I was going to do, because John Hopkins, who had worked with Nat Cole before, was a valet, he had told us that, Charles, this is where you should sit at the piano.

So by me not seeing Nat Cole do it, but we were two trios challenging one another at the time.

He was more into pop and we were into the race record group, but we were still number one at that time.

We didn't know we were going to be at, but we had the Pittsburgh Courier run a poll and we won the poll, but Carlos Gastell said, for NATCO, the Blazers are not going to win the poll because I'm going to send $1,000 in there, and I'm going to beat them with the votes.

So he did that.

Well, you've influenced a lot of singers, and one of the many people you've influenced was Moz Allison, who recorded one of the songs that you did for his paradise.

Sam Cook did too.

And a lot of the other people, I don't know, Johnny Fuller wrote this number.

He was imitating me in San Francisco, and Leo Mester and Eddie Mester would go out as talent scouts to find tunes that would fit me.

And they heard this number being number one in San Francisco because this company that had it wasn't able to send it across the country and distribution.

So he said, Charles, since they're trying to imitate you doing Fool's Paradise, why don't you do it?

Then I did Fool's Paradise, and it was a great hit for me.

Would you play it for us?

Yes, I will.

I often think of

the life I live.

It's a wonder

Charles Browning did

drinking and gambling,

staying out all night,

living in a fool's paradise.

My mother told me,

Father told me to,

someday my child,

fate's gonna catch up with you.

Drinking and gambling,

staying out all night,

living in a fool's paradise

Though I've learned my lesson

Life long fools I've met

I've learned

things are in this world

I remember to my dying day

My mother told me

Father said it right.

Said Charles Brown,

you're running your life

drinking and gambling,

staying out all night,

living in the pool of paradise.

Living in a fool's paradise.

That's it.

That's great.

In the 1950s, you used to travel on the rhythm and blues circuit a lot, and you had a show.

And as a matter of fact, Ray Charles, when he was getting started, performed in your show, opening for you, right?

Yeah, Ray Charles was opening for Charles Brown.

And it was during the early 50s, and people thought he was singing so much like me.

He said, well, is that Charles Brown?

So when I came out, they said, oh, no, that's Charles Brown.

But at that time, Ray, I had to take Ray Charles around.

In fact, all the artists that were in Shaw Agency, they were depending on me to carry them through because the promoters wanted to buy Charles Brown.

But in order for Shaw to sell the other acts, he said, well, in order to get Charles Brown, you have to take the Dominoes.

I took them through.

I took the Clovers through.

I took Ray Charles through.

I took Ruth Brown through the wine virtua.

And then I had to be a criticizer for Fats Domino when he came into the circuit.

I had to go to, I came here to Philadelphia, and I came here, and he was working at the Baby Grand, I think it was on Pine Street off abroad, and I had to sit there and listen to his show.

So when I listened to Fat's Domino's show, you know, people here in Philadelphia, they were very funny, they were great listeners.

And if they enjoyed something, they would give you a wonderful round of applause.

So when Fat finished one number, he would take his time and they would smoke a cigarette, they would do a lot of talking.

And so when he came up, I said, Fat, look, you lose your audience when you do this.

You've got to have your next number ready.

And if you watch Fat's Domino right today, when he gets through with any of his numbers, he goes right to the next number.

So we are very dear friends even today.

Well, I don't feel like we could let you leave today without playing some of Merry Christmas, Baby, which is one of the songs you're best known for.

Yeah, they know me for that.

No care where I go, whatever time of year, Terry.

Okay.

Merry Christmas, baby.

You sure did treat me nice.

Merry Christmas, baby.

Sure did treat me nice.

Gave me a diamond ring for Christmas.

Now I'm living in paradise.

Well, I'm feeling mighty fine

Got good music on my stereo

Feeling mighty fine

Got good music on my radio

Well, I wanna kiss you, baby

While you standing beneath the mistletoe

That's just a little part of it.

We won't talk about Satan coming down the chimney yet, too.

Charles Brown recorded in 1989.

He died in 1999.

One of the singers he influenced was Ray Charles, and that's who we'll hear from next as we continue our archive series of RB, rockabilly, and early rock and roll.

I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.

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Up next in our archive series, RB, Rockabilly, and Early Rock and Roll, we have an interview with Ray Charles.

He was nicknamed the genius, not just for his great singing and piano playing, but also for his producing, arranging, and choice of songs.

He drew from and contributed to just about every genre, RB, gospel, soul, rock and roll, and country.

Many of his great recordings were of country songs.

In fact, his 1962 album, Modern Sounds and Country and Western Music, became one of his best-known records and included one of his biggest hits, I Can't Stop Loving You.

I spoke with Ray Charles in 1998 after the release of a box set collecting his complete country and Western recordings from 1959 to 86.

What was the reaction of your record company when you said around 1962, I want to do a country record?

Did they think, hey, Ray, great idea?

No, not exactly.

No,

although I understand their concern, because, I mean, you know, at the time I was a pretty good selling artist over at ABC at the time.

But their concern was, is that

I

was a, quote, rhythm and blues artist, unquote.

And they thought if I start doing country music, that I would lose a lot of fans.

And of course, if I lose fans, that means they would lose a lot of business, too.

They did have, I thought their concern was legit.

You know, I mean, I understood what Sam Clark, who's the president at the time was saying to me he said you know you know kid I I'm a little worried about that you know I know it's what you want to do but we're very worried that you may lose some fans and my attitude was well Sam you know you probably could be right but I think that I'll gain more fans than I'll lose if I do it right so he said okay it's your career if you want to try it go ahead and do it

now um early in your career you went through a period like many people do early on, of trying to figure out who you were musically.

And before you really figured that out, you sounded very much like you had patterned yourself on Nat Cole and Charles Brown.

That's right.

What did they both mean to you?

Why did you feel so strongly about them?

I just love the way.

Well, Nat Cole, the reason he was so powerful in my life was the fact that I wanted to do exactly what he was doing.

You know,

most people think of Nat Cole as a great singer.

You know, they know his voice.

But I was looking at Nat Cole as a pianist.

I mean, he was one of the, people don't realize it, but Nat Cole was a hell of a pianist.

He

played some of that tasty stuff behind his singing.

And that's what I wanted to do, was to be able to play little tasty things behind what I was singing.

So I really, I really tried to pattern myself after Nat Cole in the early beginnings of my career.

And Charles Brown, the rhythm of Brown.

And Charles Brown had that real,

real,

I don't know how you would call it.

He always sounded like he was pleading, begging, you know, really

pleading in his songs or crying, you know.

And I liked that.

He always sounded like he was sincere.

Whatever he was saying about, he was genuinely, he meant it.

That's the way I took Charles Brown.

And I liked it, especially when he was singing the blues or something like Merry Christmas, Baby, and stuff like that.

Well, I thought we could listen to the very first recording that you made, which is Confession Blues.

Oh, my goodness.

Where did you find that?

Oh, on one of your box sets.

It was easy.

Oh, brother.

Yeah, that's one of the things where I was.

You got me down pat.

I guess I must have been about 17 years old at that time when I made that.

This is 1949.

Let's hear it, and then we'll talk about it.

I want to tell you a story

of a boy who was watching love.

And how the girl that I loved

robbed me of the happiness I dreamed of.

She called me fine, sweet and mellow,

but that didn't mean a thing.

That was Ray Charles' first recording made in 1949.

How did you start to get a sense of who you were as a singer and start to establish your own sound?

Oh, well, around about 19.

Well, you know, I started thinking about it in the 1951, somewhere in there, in 1950 or 51, but I was scared to try it because, you know, I could get a lot of work sounding like Nat Cole.

You know, I could work in nightclubs and I could make a living, you know, with his sound.

You know, I could take the amplifier and tune it and add a little bass and

a little bit of treble or something like that to it and sound pretty close, almost just like it, you know but then i i was i i i knew what what i woke up one morning and i started to think in that i said to myself you know nobody know nobody knows my name everybody said to me hey kid hey kid you sound just like natco hey kid it was always hey kid nobody never said ray never never never so i started telling myself you know your mom always told you to be yourself and you got to be yourself if you're going to make it in this business.

I know you love Nat Cole, but you got to stop that.

Well, I want to play Your Cheating Heart, which is a real standard of country music.

And I think this is just a really wonderful example of you doing a song your way.

I mean,

you might even be using different chords on here than the chords that were written.

Yeah, that's right.

That's right.

Well,

that's what makes it become me.

Uh-huh.

And the singing, too, of course.

Well, thank you, ma'am.

But would you say a little bit about what you did with this song to make it your own?

Well, it's like any song

that I'm going to do.

I first

sing it to myself and see if I can genuinely feel it.

You know,

any song.

I'm that way about all music.

All songs I do.

I sit there and

maybe sometimes I may sit at the keyboard and fool around with the chords and see if I can find a way to sing it where it makes me feel good inside.

And sometimes,

you know, I can run into songs that are good songs, but

I can't make it do anything for me.

But the song is a great song, you know, to give you for an example, like I've always loved startups, a beautiful song.

But I never could quite get it to sound like I wanted it to for me.

So, you know,

it's really a true feeling

what you feel inside you, you know,

where you can put yourself into it.

Can you really feel what you're doing?

And that's important to me to feel what I'm doing.

Okay, now Stardust, you had a huge hit with Hoagie Carmichael's Georgia.

That's right.

How come Stardust doesn't work for you?

Well, I just could never get into it.

I mean, Georgia was something I used to harm George.

As a matter of fact,

my chauffeur

said to me one day, he said, you know, Mr.

Charles, you're always humming that song, George.

You're always humming it all the time.

Why don't you record it?

Well, I had never thought about recording.

I just liked the song, you know.

But

it was a chord structure in Georgia.

I mean, especially in the middle part of it, it's got some beautiful changes to it.

Hoga Kai Michael,

after giving some skin, he wrote some beautiful stuff on that song.

Okay, well, I had you describe your version of Your Cheating Heart, and we haven't played that yet.

So let me give that a spin now.

This is the Hank Williams song, Your Cheating Heart, performed by Ray Charles.

And this is from the early 1960s, one of the recordings included on the new Ray Charles box set, The Complete Country and Western Recordings, 1959 to 1986.

Here it is:

Your cheating

heart

will

make you weep.

weeping

You cry and cry

and try

to sleep

But sleep won't come

The whole night through

your cheated heart

will tell on you

when tears

come down

like

falling rain.

The That's Ray Charles, one of his recordings included on his new box set, The Complete Country and Western Recordings, 1959 to 1986.

Now, it's funny, you know, when I was young, some of your country songs were really big hits.

You know, like Born to Lose and You Don't Know Me and Cry in Time.

I didn't think of them as country songs, I thought of them as Ray Charles records.

You're very sweet, honey.

Thank you, Terry.

No, I mean, I mean that.

I didn't find out too much later they were country songs.

Well, actually, what it is, I'll tell you something that I mean, which I think would be helpful to the people, to our listeners.

You see, I am not a country singer.

I'm not a jazz singer.

I am not a blues singer.

What I am is I am a singer that can sing country music.

I can sing the blues.

I can sing a love song, but I'm not a specialist.

You know what I mean?

I'm kind of like

a baseball player.

You know, I can play a little first bass, second bass, shortstop, and third bass.

I can catch and pitch a little bit for you if you need me to.

I'm sort of like that in the music world, as opposed to being, say,

a specialist, like you would say, B.B.

King is a blues singer.

There's no question about it.

But

I'm not a blues singer.

I'm a singer that can sing the blues.

Now, your biography back from, I think, 1978 begins.

Let me say right here and now that I am a country boy, and man, I mean the real back woods.

Tell us a little bit about where you grew up in the country.

Oh, well, I'm from a little small town.

Well, actually, I was born in Albany, Georgia, but I don't know anything about it because my parents moved to Florida when I was about six months old, so you know, I wouldn't remember anything.

So I was raised in a little

village, I guess you could call it called Greenville, Florida.

It's about 42 miles east of Tallahassee, you know, and

it was just a little country town, and we just had like a little general store, and there was a post office, and that was a bus stop, not a bus station, but where you sit on the bench and wait for the bus.

And that was about it, and everybody knew everybody.

And of course, I say the bulk of the people were people that were more or less poor, you know.

So if Miss Jones needed some sugar, she would borrow it from my mom, and if my mom needed some flour, she would borrow it from Ms.

Williams or whatever.

I mean, that's the way we got along.

And what did you hear on the radio then?

Well, basically, in the daytime, you heard country music on the radio.

I mean, that was it.

All day long was country music all over the dial.

And at night, you could hear things like Benny Goodman or Tommy Dossi or

Count Basie, because they would have, in those days, they had programs that were live that was coming from some of the various hotels and nightclubs.

And so you could hear various bands at night.

And in daytime, you heard strictly

their country music.

And of course, being in a black neighborhood, naturally I heard the blues.

I mean, that's where the blues was.

And of course, the religion thing, because, you know, you went to revival meetings and BYPU.

And

I went to Sunday school and church on Sunday morning and Sunday evenings.

And so, you know,

that was the mixture that I grew up in.

Ray Charles, recorded in 1998.

We'll hear more of our conversation after a short break.

I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.

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Now, I know a lot of African-American musicians grew up listening to country music on the radio in the South because that's what was on the radio

then.

I'm wondering if you ever felt any more distanced from that music because the performers were white and you were African-American.

Did that matter to you at all?

No, no.

You know, that is the marvelous thing about music it is the one thing that i i won't say there's there was with no uh uh segregation or anything i i'm not saying that but it was very very small i mean if you look around you saw guys like benny goodman i mean you he i mean there was lyle hampton in his band you know uh uh

various uh uh white bands there were there were black people in the bands and there was uh uh uh when i when when i was coming up i even worked with it with a hillbilly group in Florida called the Hillbilly Playboy

Playboys.

And it was a hillbilly group.

They taught me how to yodel.

Yeah, no, could you yodel for us?

Yodel.

I mean, I'm a lot better than that, but that's the idea.

Yodel!

My voice is too early in the morning, but you get the idea.

You know, I have to say, that is not unlike some of the things that you do on your soul record.

No, really.

Okay.

I I I I I truly and and i and enjoy the various forms of

music and it really

it keeps me going.

Now, we're recording from your studio.

Do you have to get your phone?

No, no, no, no, no.

Unfortunately, the switchboard kind of goofed and let it ring back here.

You know, they must have about seven, eight lines, and they let the wrong line ring.

Mistake.

Did you think I was nuts when I said that about yodeling sounding not unlike some of the things you do on your solo records?

Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I heard every word of it, girl.

I really did.

I want to play another personal favorite from your country recordings, and this is You Don't Know Me.

Oh, yeah, all right.

Would you tell us about why you chose this song?

Oh,

I think, again, the songs

that I choose, I start with the lyrics.

What are the lyrics saying to me?

What kind of story are they telling me?

You know, it's like, I guess it's like an actor who looks at a script, you know, because when you look at lyrics, you know,

you got to tell a story in three minutes.

You know, you don't have two hours like you do when you got a script.

You got to say what you got to say and make it believable within three minutes.

So I start with the lyrics, you know.

And when I start with the lyrics, I tell myself, now, how many people

will this song fit?

I mean, does it sound like most people can relate to it?

And you tell yourself, yeah, mm-hmm.

You give your hand to me, and then you say, I watch you walk away, you know.

You can see, or when you hear somebody says, I can't stop loving you, I've made up my mind.

Just think of the people say that, you know?

And so

I always start with the lyrics to see, does the lyrics carry any real meaning, not just for me but for the people who are going to be listening to me

well let's hear you don't know me and the song was written by cindy walker and eddie arnold and this is ray charles 1962 recording of it now reissued on his cd box set the complete country in western recordings 1959 to 1986.

heart is beating so

and anyone can tell.

You think you know me well,

but you don't know me.

No, you don't know me.

No, you don't know the one

who dreams of you at night

and longs to kiss your lips

and longs to hold you tight.

Oh,

I'm just afraid

that's all I've ever been.

Cause you don't know me.

As we mentioned, you grew up in the country.

and I think it was at about the age of seven that you lost your sight, and you lost it gradually over a period of a couple of years.

Did you realize what was happening?

Well, as far as losing my sight, I knew that because my mom

was very astute.

I mean, I don't know how she managed to

come up with the ideas she did, you know,

because she didn't have no psychologist to tell her to do this or tell her to do that.

But she started, she knew I was going to to lose my eyesight.

And so since she knew I was going to lose my sight, she started showing me how to get around and how to do things without seeing.

Like she would tell me, okay, I'm going to show you where this chair is.

Okay.

Now since you can't see that chair, you're going to have to teach yourself to remember that that chair is there.

Or you got to teach yourself to remember that that table is there.

Or you've got to teach yourself to remember to turn right when you get to da-da-da-da-da.

And of course, she started with me, with that, with me when I started to lose my eyesight.

So

I gained an awful lot.

And of course, being that age, it wasn't as much of a shock as, say, it would be if I was, say, losing my sight at the age of 30 or 40 or something, where you've seen all your life.

Did you go through a long period of depression afterwards?

No, because

by the time I started losing my sight for sure, I was going to a school for the deaf and the blind.

And you know, children, you know, I'm sure you're aware of this, but children can be very brutal, I mean, to each other.

Yeah, no kidding, yeah.

You know what I mean?

And so if you go in there, like when I first went there, I was very homesick and I was crying.

And you know what you go through, because

where I went to school was about 130 or 40 miles from where I live, you know, so there was a state school for the blind and deaf, as I say.

So I was crying and missing my mama and all that.

And see, kids would pick, instead of

sympathize with, they would pick on you and make you feel bad, you know, so you even, you know, they'll get you out of that kind of groove.

Was it at the boarding school for children who were blind and deaf that you first learned to play music?

Exactly.

Yeah, I started.

I couldn't get into music class the first year.

I was in school because the class was full.

So, I mean, I couldn't get into piano class, so I started taking up clarinet.

That's why I can play clarinet and and saxophone.

Wait, so you play clarinet first?

Oh, yeah.

How'd you like the instrument?

I loved it.

Well, I was a great fan of Artis Yaw.

I used to love him.

Everybody was talking about Benny Goodman, but I was an Artist Yaw man.

I mean, 100%.

And I was very impressed by what he could do with a clarinet, and naturally, he was my mentor.

I wanted to play.

But obviously, I wanted to be in the piano class, but since I couldn't, I figured, well, okay, I'll play clarinet.

And I did that.

But the next year, I was able able to get into the piano class.

Did you give up clarinet?

No, I studied both.

I kept studying both instruments.

But naturally, my heart was with the keyboard because, I mean, that's just, because there's so much you can do when you play piano.

You know, by the time I was 12 years old, 13 years old, I could write a whole arrangement for a 17-piece band.

See, that's a great thing.

If you study piano, it gives you a whole outlook on a lot of different things that has to do with music.

Now, what kind of music were you playing in school?

Oh, well, we would,

they had like little

small, cute little songs from Chopin that we would play or

Beethoven or something like that.

Not the symphonies, but the little small vignettes or whatever you call those little things that you do, you know.

And of course, when I would write something,

I would write some kind of

current song that was being played, you know, on on the radio i was just writing arrangement for the band to play it and i'll tell you that's why i don't write a score today because i started out writing the parts first you know most times when you what what arrangers do i'm sure you know this i'm just saying for the sake of the audience arrangers write a score first

and then when they write the score they write the parts well I wanted to hear the music so bad I'd write the parts first and write the score afterwards.

It's kind of backward, right?

Well, you know, I interviewed Hank Crawford, who played in your band.

Yes, he used my college for a lot of years.

Yeah, yeah, and he was your music director for a while.

That's right.

And he said that when you did an arrangement, what you would do would be to call out the notes.

That's right.

He told you, right?

That's right.

Yeah, and I thought that was so strange.

I figured, oh, you'd sing the part for the person who is translating.

No, no, no, no, no, you called out the notes.

No, no, no.

I would literally tell him what note to write down.

If I tell him the notes, I don't have to worry about whether I'm singing in or out of tune, do I?

Well, that's a good point, right?

All right.

If I tell him the notes, it can't be no mistake.

Uh-huh.

You see what I mean?

Yeah.

I don't want to hum it.

I want to because I know how to tell him technically.

All he got to do is write what I tell him.

That way it can't be no mistake.

Because if I hum it to him,

I might not hum it just right, or he may not hear it right or hear what I'm saying.

But if I say it's C sharp,

C sharp is C sharp all over the world.

Now how old were you when you left school and set off on your own?

I was about 15 when my mom died.

So I left school

that year.

And what was it like for you to first be on your own like that?

Oh, it was tough, but I was lucky.

I mean, I was lucky because my mom had a friend.

that lived in Jacksonville, which, as I say, was about 100 and some odd miles from Greenville.

And my mom had always talked to me about her and told me that, you know, if I ever needed someone to talk to,

that

this lady and her were very good friends.

And so

when my mom passed away,

I fooled around for a little while in

Greenville and Tallahassee.

And then I decided I would go to Jacksonville because Jacksonville was a city and I wanted to see if I could, you know, get started in music and do something.

So I went there and this lady's name was Lena Mae Thompson and her and her husband Fred Thompson, they took me in and treated me just like I was their own kid.

They fed me because I sure didn't have no money, didn't have nothing.

They bought me clothes.

I mean

I was lucky, you know, and when I would get a job, maybe once or twice a week or something like that, I'd give them the money, you know, because I mean,

it wasn't that much money involved in the first place.

And I know they spent way more money than I was able to give them back.

Now, what were the early kinds of places you performed in?

Oh, they were like

places

one way in and one way out.

They were places like where they were like dance halls.

And

a lot of them would sell beer and they'd sell

fish and chicken and stuff like that.

But like I said, it was one way in, one way out.

So if a fight broke out, you know,

it was kind of rough.

Those are the days I have to say that they were good experiences, but I would not like to do them again, you know, because, like I said, we were playing dances in those days, and of course,

anything could happen.

Is there a record that you think of as being the first recording that you made as yourself,

really establishing yourself?

Probably I got a woman.

I mean, that was it, because

when I did that, that seemed to upset a lot of people, but it was really me.

It upset a lot of people?

Oh, yeah, a lot of people thought that it was too religious and

I was bastardizing the church.

And oh, man, I got all kinds of criticism.

You mean you were using too much of a sanctified sound for the sexual record?

Yeah,

that's right.

But it was really me.

It was 100% me.

And of course,

I just said, well, I have to be criticized because I'm going to sing the way I sing.

And later on, after some other people start doing it, then they start calling it soul music.

It just goes to show you, I guess I was a little ahead of my time or something.

Well, I think that's inarguable.

Why don't we hear I got a woman?

And this is my guest, Ray Charles.

She give me money

when I'm in need.

Yeah, she's a kind of

friend indeed.

I got a woman

way over town

that's good to me.

Oh, yeah,

she says a loving

early in the morning,

just for me.

Oh, yeah,

she says a loving.

That's Ray Charles' recording that he said was the first one that really sounded like his own style.

I'd like to end our interview by asking you to choose a favorite, if you have one, from the new country music box set.

There's a big selection there, but yeah, that's true.

And it'd be very hard to find what I'd call a favorite, but I can tell you one of the songs that I really

love.

There's an old Johnny Cash thing that I did on that called Ring of Fire, but I got it from Johnny Cash.

I think it'd be real nice to to play that Ring of Fire.

I love that song, and it was written by his wife, June.

Oh, really?

I didn't know that.

Yeah.

Oh,

no kidding.

Oh, well, thank you for telling me that.

So we'll end with Ring of Fire.

Why do you love the song?

Well,

just think of the lyrics.

Just think of the lyrics.

Oh, love

is a burning thing.

You know, oh,

it talks, babe.

It speaks to you.

You know,

I really didn't know what you just told me, but boy, I have to say, I'm very happy to hear that.

Well, Ray Charles, it has been so wonderful to talk with you.

I really thank you so much for that.

Well, Terry, it's been good talking to you.

And I just want you to know not only is it good to talk to you, but I'm going to keep on listening to you, too.

It is an honor to hear you say that.

Thank you.

I really mean it.

Thank you very much.

is a burning thing

Yes, it is

And it makes

you know it makes a fiery rain

Girl, you know I'm bound

by wild desire

That's what you do to me, girl.

Because I don't fail,

I fell into your rain of fire.

You got me, baby.

I fell into the burning rain of fire.

I went down, down, down.

And oh,

the flame went higher.

And it burns, burns, burns.

The rain of fire.

You're ring of fire.

Woo!

Grey Charles recorded in 1998.

He died in 2004.

Fresh Air Weekend was produced this week by Teresa Madden and Heidi Simon.

Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller.

Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.

This episode's engineer was Adam Staniszewski.

Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.

Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberto Shurock, Anne Ri Boldonato, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, and John Sheehan.

Our digital media producer is Molly C.

V.

Nesper.

Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson.

Our co-host is Tanya Mosley.

I'm Terry Gross.

That dog going

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