Scarlett Johansson & June Squibb On 'Eleanor The Great'

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This is Fresh Air.

I'm Tanya Mosley.

A 94-year-old woman, displaced and grieving the loss of her best friend and roommate, makes an audacious choice.

She begins telling her deceased friend's story of surviving the Holocaust as if it were her own.

It's deceptive and morally complicated, but for Eleanor, it's the first time in years she truly feels seen.

That's the premise of Eleanor the Great, opening Tomorrow, a poignant and humorous film that moved first-time director Scarlett Johansson to tears when she initially read the script.

To honor the story's weight, she cast actual Holocaust survivors alongside her lead.

At the center is June Squibb, 94 years old and having the creative run of her life.

The Academy Award-nominated actor has worked for over six decades, but it wasn't until Nebraska in 2013 that she became a household name.

Now with Eleanor the Great, following her recent triumph in Thelma, she's starring yet again as the lead in a story that centers on the very real experiences of someone still navigating life in their 90s.

Johansson herself knows something about breaking barriers.

The two-time Oscar nominee has navigated the industry since she was a kid.

She's built a career that spans intimate dramas like Marriage Story and global blockbusters like the Avengers films.

And now she's directed a film that explores grief and forgiveness and who has the right to tell someone's story.

Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb, welcome to Fresh Air.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Well, June, you have this sharp wit in Eleanor the Great.

We have seen this in several of your roles, but there is this mix of bite and charm, and I want to give listeners a sense of it.

I want to start with a scene from early in the film.

Eleanor, your character, and her best friend Bessie, played by Rita Zohar, are shopping for kosher pickles when a stockboy makes the mistake of saying he thinks that all pickles are basically the same.

And Eleanor basically lets him know what she thinks about that.

Excuse me,

we are the closest kosher.

They're supposed to be right here.

I guess we're at.

Hello?

Do you have in the back, maybe?

Well,

we have a bunch of other pickles right here, and honestly, I think all pickles taste the same.

Excuse me?

Eleanor, Luke?

Are you listening to this?

All pickles are the same.

I heard.

Hey,

Charlie.

Nice name.

How long you been working here, Charlie?

I don't know, like

a few weeks.

That's cute.

Well, yesterday was delivery day, and you know how I know that?

Because we've been coming here every Friday for the last 16 years.

Can you count to 16, Charlie?

Well,

here's what you're going to do.

You're going to go to the back.

Bessie, point to the back so Charlie doesn't get lost.

You're gonna turn left at the shampoo, go all the way down the aisle.

Now, I know it's complicated, Charlie, but stay with me and you'll find the pickles that my friend needs, okay?

Okay, go fetch.

That was my guest, June Squibb in Eleanor the Great, directed by Scarlett Johansson.

June, the scene is definitely funny, but there is something more going on here because Eleanor is kind of asserting herself at the two of them being dismissed.

And

it's something that plays throughout the entire film.

What drew you to this character?

I just felt she was such a human character and had so many

feelings and she kept revealing herself, something new about her constantly in the script.

And all that was very attractive to me, and it was well written.

So I just felt, yeah, I want to do this.

Is it true that you wrote Scarlett a letter once you signed on to this asking her to be a part of it?

Yes, when Scarlett was interested in directing it, and the producers asked me if I would write a letter and they were going to include it in the package of letters or whatever it was they were sending Scarlett to try to convince her to direct the film.

So I did.

I don't think I said too much in it.

I think probably something like, will you come and do the film?

And then June offered me a large cash sum, which I still have not yet received.

Oh, I did.

Maybe a mocha blended or something like that, but not money.

Scarlett, I mentioned that this script made you cry when you read it.

Do you remember that moment when you just knew you had to be a part of it?

Well, I firstly was, I had received the cover letter from June.

You know, I didn't know anything about the script, only that June Squibb wanted to take on a leading role and what could it be at this stage in her career.

I mean, June said she turns a lot down.

I'm sure she must because, you know, it's such a huge effort to commit to something like this for any actor.

And I was just very intrigued.

And it was clear to me upon

first reading it, okay, this is a character who suffers this devastating loss and she is having this, you know, very challenging time navigating this move back to Manhattan after 40 years of not living there.

And she's a 94-year-old woman who feels

invisible in this

current

economy environment.

And,

you know, then all of a sudden, this plot twist,

you know, which you described earlier, this lie that Eleanor tells

in a moment of, I think, real deep loneliness and isolation,

an attempt to connect with a community

and what grows out of that lie was so unexpected.

It just felt very

surprising.

And it's rare to feel surprised when you read a script.

A lot of times, scripts are very formulaic or they're based on, you know, IP that you're familiar with or, you know, you can kind of see where the story is going.

But this one just felt really original and unique.

When you took on the challenge, you're like, okay, this is so interesting.

I'm going to do this.

How did you wrestle with those moral questions as a director, making it funny because it is very humorous, but also taking on such a heavy topic?

Well, I mean, the humor certainly was written in Tori came in, who wrote the script, you know, it was a sort of thesis that she built around her grandmother, who she was very, very close with, who similarly moved back to New York after many decades of living away,

you know, is a much older woman.

And

those very biting lines, those salty lines, even from Rita's character, Bessie, are some of them are verbatim, her grandmother's words.

And so I and I grew up in New York.

I

had a

Jewish grandmother and who was also could be very dry and she was very funny.

And

I don't know, that humor felt familiar to me.

It was like dialogue vocabulary that I just got.

And so that was baked in.

And of course, having June with her incredible comedic timing and

her expression and her vocal cadence.

And she's...

the perfect person to be delivering those zingers.

But as far as the sensitive

balance and

subject matter, you know, I think as a director, and I think even as an actor, too,

it's not really my job to kind of judge these characters and what they do.

Or if I have any judgment, I'm probably not the right person to be supporting the story.

I think it's, you know, I hope that the audience, if I do my job right by the end of the film, is able to abandon any judgment and have empathy and compassion for the characters and certainly for Eleanor's deception and understand why she does what she does.

Scarlett, you made this intentional choice to cast real Holocaust survivors and the group support scenes.

How did that idea come together?

I think it was pretty obvious that that was necessary

because when you start to talk about casting people for it, it just felt kind of like a phony, I wouldn't even know what I would be looking for exactly.

It just felt very important

and a must, an absolute must, that we identify survivors that wanted to participate and then were able to participate.

And, you know, can we create an environment where

those people could sit with us for a couple of days and not,

you know, in general comfort.

You know, luckily living in New York, you know, there was a lot of different roads that we could kind of go down.

Jessica Hecht, who's a fantastic actor and an extraordinary in the film, who plays Lisa, Eleanor's daughter, she is very involved in the Jewish community here in New York, and so she was able to identify a couple of our survivors

just through the community.

And also, we, you know, we worked with Rodef Shalom, the temple that we shot the film actually.

where Eleanor's character is Bob Mitzvod.

They helped us to identify some people.

The Shoah Foundation also helped us out.

So we just kind of sent out

that signal.

And

we were very, very fortunate to be able to come up with a group that we did.

And tomorrow we'll be having our screening in New York.

And

yeah, we'll be inviting our group to come and enjoy the film with their family.

I'm so excited for them to see it.

Because that population is dwindling.

There are not many.

Very fast, the population is dwindling.

And I think it's also why we must keep the story.

We must do it, which is what I think Scarlett and I did with this.

I mean, we make people look at it and remember and understand.

Scarlett mentioned that

there is a planned bot mitzvah for you in the film.

You actually had to learn Torah for this role.

Yes, I did, and I did.

It's a sore subject.

It's a sore problem because it didn't end up up in the film.

June was dreaming her Torah portion.

I was.

And then we ended up cutting it.

And she was so bummed.

You can hear the bitterness in her voice,

but it didn't make it in the film.

You got to find a way to have that out there.

Or Scarlett says eventually it will get out.

It's going to be on the B-sides.

Yeah.

Jim,

as someone, you converted to Judaism decades ago, is that right?

In the 50s.

In the 50s,

you married someone who was Jewish, that's why.

What was that experience like diving deeper into that story into those texts for Eleanor's journey?

It's also, I would imagine, personal growth.

It was, and I kept thinking back, you know, if I was sitting studying it or something, and I would think back to that time when I was studying Judaism with this wonderful young rabbi in Cleveland, Cleveland, Ohio.

Where you're from, yeah.

It was very exciting.

I loved it.

I loved doing it.

And I loved meeting him and becoming close to him.

And we just talked about everything.

He was just a great, great guy.

And he married us.

So that was, my husband said he married me.

He didn't marry him at all.

But it was a very exciting and wonderful part of my life.

It really was.

Scarlett,

you discovered not too long ago that you had family lost in the Holocaust.

Is that right?

I did, actually.

I was on the Henry Louis Gates show, Finding Your Roots, and

I knew that I had lost relatives in the Warsaw ghetto.

But I certainly didn't know how many.

Several members of my family, a whole family of people and young children.

And looking at the register, one of the members who had escaped went back, you know, after the war and after the ghetto had been

destroyed, really.

Yeah.

And, you know, had to go back and to kind of take a notice of, you know, this is what they died from, this is how old they were,

you know, almost like a diary of that.

And so to see the handwritten names, ages, you know, children, you know, that they were dying of,

you know, whether it was listed either s starvation or, you know, diarrhea or it's so profound and moving and horrifying just to hold that document.

Yeah, it's and and you know, I've spoken to friends of mine too, actually, who have very similar stories of members of their family that they lost in the Holocaust, meaning similar in the sense that the details were kind of lost for decades, and that actually,

you know, friends of mine that are the same generation as myself were uncovering the secrets of the past, I think, because they're so, you know, one of the interesting things I think about Bessie's story is that she says, you know, I've not told anyone, not even my own children.

And I think a lot of survivors live, you know, holding those stories like a horror they don't want to recount or relive.

And so there's a lot of these stories that are still have not been uncovered and

are kind of lost in time.

And so, if you have a living relative who's lived through the Holocaust, you know, to be able to, I mean, the work that the Shoah Foundation does to preserve those stories is so vital, it's so important, especially because the population is dwindling rapidly.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: You mentioned earlier your grandmother, and I wondered if you had had a chance to talk with your grandparents about what you had discovered before they passed away.

No, I never did.

I unfortunately never did.

I think it would have been very,

very painful.

The relatives of mine that I lost in the Holocaust that were lost in the Holocaust were actually on my maternal side.

My mom's father.

His family was from right outside of Warsaw.

And again, I mean,

was, I think, very removed

from that part of his family.

It was almost like a shame nobody talked about it.

Like, don't look back, you know.

He would have been devastated to have seen those papers, I'm sure.

I want to talk a little bit about your career, June.

I've heard you say that you knew you wanted to be an actor from the moment you left the womb.

And I was just wondering, what kind of career did you envision for yourself?

I think I always thought more I would be on stage.

I never thought about film or television as a career.

I don't know why.

But

my early career was the theater, of course.

And so, you know,

that just seemed what it would be.

Your Broadway debut was in the musical Gypsy in 1959.

You developed this nickname, the dirtiest mouth on Broadway.

Yes.

Because I had a dirty mouth.

Okay, paint a picture for us.

Of course, this is NPR, so you can't use all of that.

No, I won't go into that.

I was very quick with the curse words.

And I looked about 12.

I think I was in my 20s.

when all that happened, 20s or early 30s.

And

I looked so young.

And so it was like, what?

What does she say?

But I had a dirty mouth.

There's no other way to describe it.

Tell me about your path into comedy.

When you stepped into theater, were you always taking on these kinds of roles?

Or how did you find that voice, that comedic side of you?

I started, it was the Cleveland Playhouse.

That's where I was before I came to New York.

And I went in as a student, and I ended up on staff, and I was there for five years and all.

And that's where I started.

I had always danced, but I started singing there.

And

they put me into almost every musical as the comedian.

And so when I went to New York, I went with a group of people from there.

And it was just like everybody assumed this is what I was going to do.

And this is what I ended up doing for about 20 years.

Scarlett, you mentioned that you grew up in New York and your grandmother also lived there there too.

Can you talk about your grandmother and the time that you spent with her as a kid and maybe how that informed you directing this movie?

Oh, I was very close with my grandmother, Dorothy.

She was a,

you know, fiercely independent woman.

She lived independently for forever.

She was like a safe haven for me.

I would escape to her apartment in Hell's Kitchen most weekends.

You You know, she introduced me to all the free arts in the city.

We would go to Battery Park and we would see jazz in Lincoln Center and we would go to the Tisch

School and see plays and young playwrights and all of the dance performances there.

And

she knew every free concert and movie that was playing.

And we would go to

the theater in Lincoln Center and see independent films.

And she was a very vivacious person.

I got so much out of my friendship with my grandmother.

And I think, and she just enjoyed me tremendously.

And we would talk about everything,

everything.

We talked about the family dynamics.

We would talk later on when I was older, I would talk to her about

boyfriends, sex, our bodies,

her experience, aging,

what she was experiencing physically, politics, all kinds of stuff.

We had such a profoundly special, deep friendship, you know, and I think that

our friendship really,

when I read the script of Eleanor the Great, I was

very moved by the friendship between Nina and Eleanor because it did remind me very much of the dynamic I had with my grandmother and the ease we felt in one another's company.

Let's take a short break, you guys.

My guests today are Scarlett Johansson, who directed Eleanor the Great, and June Squibb, who plays the title role.

I'm Tanya Mosley.

We'll be right back.

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I want to talk to you a little bit about your move from acting to directing.

So you have been acting, Scarlet, since you were a kid, and you have worked with some incredible directors.

Noah Baumbach, Spike Jones, the late Robert Redford, whom you starred in The Horse Whisperer when you were 13.

And I actually want to play a clip from that movie.

And just to give folks a reminder of the movie, which came out in 1998, you played Grace.

She's a girl who had gone through a terrible accident with her horse.

Both were seriously injured.

Your character had part of her leg amputated.

And she had become withdrawn, and her family has turned to Robert Redford's character, who was an expert with horses, to tame and heal the horse.

And he ends up helping Grace as well.

And here is a scene with both of you

where he is just starting to work with

you and the horse, and they're getting into his pickup pickup truck.

Let's listen.

Can you drive?

Drive?

Not at all, gonna.

Well, it's never too soon to start.

Here, get in.

I can't.

Come on, I don't have all day.

Put the key in, turn it on.

This one.

Mm-hmm.

Now, right pedal's the gas, the other one's the brake.

I don't think I can with my

leg.

Well, there's only one way to find out.

Now, put it in D

and give us some gas.

Okay, we know you can't.

You just gotta feel how much.

Now, give it try it again.

There you go.

Nice

Real nice now.

There's a little road up at the end here turn on dead

Now just follow this nothing to it

I'm gonna kind of close my eyes here for a little while so

keep going till you run out of road

I don't think I can not a question if you can you are

Oh,

man, that was my guest today.

Scarlett Johansson in 1998, starring in The Horse Whisperer with the late Robert Redford,

who also directed that movie.

It's so tender, Scarlett.

How do you feel listening back to that?

But yeah, I mean, I was just remembering that scene.

But I, you know, it's you can really hear the warmth and kindness in Bob's voice and

also his natural way.

I think that was, he had such a natural way about him and his performance and

it was

in himself.

It's funny to listen to it and not see it.

It gives you a whole other perspective on it.

But you can, you know, really...

It was such an amazing experience shooting that film.

We shot in this incredible location in Bozeman.

We were staying in Bozeman, Montana, and shooting right outside of Livingston and it was on this gorgeous horse ranch and we were there for months and you know I was a city kid.

I came, I was born and raised in Manhattan and I lied to the production.

I told them that I was a you know equestrian.

I mean I had been I'd been on a carriage ride before.

I'd been on a pony ride at the circus.

And I mean every actor has lied for a job for sure and that was my big lie.

But of course then when I got to the equestrian ring to get on the horse and I came in like my street clothes, like jeans that were like falling off, you know, big baggy jeans and Nikes.

And I don't think you're traditionally supposed to wear that kind of clothing when you ride a horse.

And I remember Rex Peterson, who was the horse trainer on it, was like,

he was from Nebraska and he was like, oh no, he was like, I got my work.

He was like, this girl has never been on a horse.

Like, I had no idea what I was doing.

But by the end of that job, I mean, it was a long job.

We shot it for probably six months or something like that.

And it was, and I had, you know, I was riding every day and with Buck Brennaman, who was extraordinary, who, you know, the character of

Robert's character is based on, the horse whisperer, Buck Brennaman.

And it was just, it was just an unbelievable experience to have as a kid, a city kid, and out in the beautiful setting like that, working with, you know, Kristen Scott Thomas and Sam Neal and Bob Redford and Diane Wiest and Chris Cooper.

And it was just just amazing.

It's quite a cast.

Yeah, it was an amazing cast and beautiful setting.

And I was doing like real dramatic work for the first time in my life.

It was just magical.

Am I right that the seed for directing was sort of planted in watching Robert Redford?

It really was.

I mean, he was so graceful doing it, too, because he could seamlessly transition between these intimate scenes like the one you just played.

And then he was, you know, it was a huge crew.

I mean, the film was, it was based on a very, you know, a best-selling novel.

And, and it was, and Disney had, was making it.

And so it was this, it was a big production.

Um, and he, there had to have been at least, you know, 200 crew members.

And he was able to,

you know, coordinate these big scenes in this huge riding arena with horses and actors and our DP Bob Richardson and big techno cranes.

And I, you know, to see him seamlessly do that and then then to come and have these intimate conversations with all the cast and I just felt like that's a very that's an interesting job that seems like the best job for sure and I thought that's what I was gonna do

you know for most of my career I thought I would do that you applied to film school right

was that with the intent of being a director it was yeah it was and by the time i'd gotten i'd actually gotten into sunny purchase and was and deferred a year and a couple

I've had a couple of people come up to me and say, you know, your name was called in the roll call the following year, and everybody looked around like, where were you?

Because people knew you by then.

Right.

People knew me by then.

And I was working.

I guess I forgot to let the admissions office know I was not going to be attending that year.

I'm sorry.

I apologize.

I hope I took somebody's place.

But

yeah, it was with the intention of directing.

Were there moments before this film where you considered taking this step?

Or did it feel like this was just the right time for you to step into that director's role?

Yeah, there was a couple there's been a couple of times where there was material that I was working on that I I thought I could direct, but I don't know necessarily

that

I think it happened this happened at the right time

for me.

I don't think I could have directed a film

before now.

Not with the same

confidence, which is what you need, because we've all worked with directors that were not confident, and that's awful for everybody.

If they don't have confidence in the vision, then who does?

Then it becomes kind of a free-for-all.

Suddenly in a Lord of the Flies

style situation.

The strongest actor wins.

Or producer or

DP or anybody.

I mean we've all been on those jobs where the DP was suddenly directing it or the producer was suddenly directing it.

And that's you know that really feels like the wheels are coming off.

You need a strong director to lead the mission.

It's important.

Was there anything in particular or was it time that brought you that confidence in this moment?

I don't know.

I mean, I think probably

a lot of things I think got me to this moment.

I mean, it certainly was putting in the hours and then trying a lot of different things as an actor and working in different circumstances.

And then, I mean, I think also having children for me personally was transformative, you know, the hardest thing to do.

And I mean, I'm still doing it, raising young children.

But also, I think that experience was like, oh, I feel different on the other side of that.

Like, I feel more,

I don't know, I think capable.

Not that that's for everybody, certainly, but for me, it was like a really

profound change from one side to the other.

I think it was for me, too.

It gives you, when you're able to do it, it gives you confidence.

It really does.

I agree.

You think I could do almost anything.

Yeah.

I've kept him healthy and alive and everything.

Yeah, I think so too.

It's empowering.

Yeah.

June, you had this

big transition, this big turn from theater to film.

Was it a conscious transition?

Was it an offering of a particular role?

Take me to that time period when you realized that that was a step you could take.

It was a period when all at once we were getting a lot of I was living in New York and we were getting f more film here.

And friends of mine who were actors were working on the film.

Small roles, but they were, you know, they were enjoying it and getting money and everything.

So I went to my agent and I said, everybody I know is working in film and I think I should be too.

He said, okay.

And in a week, I had an audition for Woody Allen.

And I got that.

And the same casting people were doing Martin Breast's Son of a Woman.

And so they brought me in for that.

And I got that.

And the same casting people were doing Scarsese's Age of Innocence.

And I went in and I got that.

And all at once, I had done three films, one right after the other.

And the Martin Bress film, the role was sort of noticed.

The other two were very small, but the Martin Bress film was the role was larger.

And people just started saying, my God, you're a film actress now.

And in truth, from that time,

that's when it shifted.

There are differences between a theater actor and a film actor, and the subtleties, I guess, are the things that we notice the most.

What were the biggest challenges for you?

All the wires.

In film, there's so many wires to the lights and everything.

And it was just sort of like, wow, that's a lot of wires down there.

And I remember the Woody Allen film, the crew, they knew I'd never been on a film set before, and they would have carried me over these wires if they could have.

I just would stand and stare at all the wires because it wasn't like that in the theater.

But I do feel, you know, that when you're working in the theater, you're trying to reach a larger audience.

So it's a bigger performance.

Not bigger, but

you're making that thing of being a little more open, a little more to that whole big audience out there.

And

with film, you're really the camera.

You're in love with that camera.

Let's take a short break.

If you're just joining us, we're talking with Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb about their new film, Eleanor the Great.

We'll be right back after a break.

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I want to talk a little bit about

the relationship between your character, Eleanor, and this young college student named Nina, who's played by this phenomenal young actress, Erin Kelleman.

This This character, Nina, she wants to write about Eleanor's story.

She heard it while sitting in one of the survivors meetings and they form this friendship and I actually want to play a scene of the two of you

for the audience to kind of get a sense at the playfulness of your relationship.

But the two of you in this scene I'm about to play are at a diner and Nina recently lost her mother and she's she's talking to to Eleanor about it.

Let's listen.

So tell me about your mother.

I'll probably cry if I do.

So cry.

What's a big deal?

Hold that thought.

Excuse me.

The other guy brought the water, but no straws.

Oh, we actually don't have straws.

It's like an environmental thing.

This diner has a political agenda?

You know what?

Don't tell me.

Just go back and see if you can find two.

I don't need one.

Two?

Thank you.

Now what was I saying?

You want me to cry?

Right.

If there's one thing I've learned, and you can write this down in your notebook, you have to talk about the things that make you sad.

Jews fled Poland and never talked about what they went through.

They just kept it moving, and there's some good in that.

But it can just eat you alive.

80 years later, and you'll still be there.

That's my guest today, June Squibb, in the movie Eleanor the Great, directed by my other guest, Scarlett Johansson.

June, Nina is this one person who seems to possess this clearest view into

Eleanor and who she is.

And Eleanor is giving Nina that advice.

She's also kind of giving herself that advice, too.

Yeah, I think she is.

I think she's solidifying

who she is, really, by telling Nina this.

But I think she means it.

I don't think that that was that scene was in a diner and it was fun and we were shooting the

straws at each other, but she's saying some very important things.

She's talking about sitting with and sharing stories.

And

you know, you mentioned earlier about always looking forward.

Is that something that you also sit with with and thinking about the stories to tell, the stories to sit with, and the stories to think about, you know,

that are the past?

I never think much about that unless if someone asks.

If someone says,

what happened to you in such and such,

I would certainly tell them.

But

I don't think I think in terms of that.

It's really interesting, though, I will say that, June, like, you're never someone to wax poetic about something.

I mean, of course, you've got the best stories ever, and you're an amazing storyteller.

But it's not like you I mean, it's such an interest, it's a really unique characteristic of your personality that you don't really

sort of you're not nostalgic.

And I and it's it's just it's surprising, I think, because you know, I have other friends that are several decades older than me, and they do talk about the power.

Sometimes I think a lot of people live in the past, you know, as a way of coping, I think, with what's with the present in a way, or their fear of the future, and you don't do that at all.

It's funny, because I've always sort of, oh boy, what's tomorrow going to bring?

And so that's been very exciting to me.

Scarlett, you mentioned you have friends who are several decades older.

June, do you have a lot of intergenerational relationships, relationships with younger folks?

Yes, I do have.

One is four years old.

I don't know.

Oh, really?

My neighbor upstairs, and he and I both love candy, and he loves ice pops, and I always have some ice pops.

So he just goes to my refrigerator when he comes in.

I love that.

No, I mean, I just, and I have young Chris Colfer, who was in glee for years, is a very close friend of mine.

Fred Heckinger, who I did Thelma with.

I mean, it just seems natural to me.

I mean, if somebody's interesting, they're interesting no matter what their age is.

Let's take a short break.

If you're just joining us, we're talking with Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb about their new film, Eleanor the Great.

We'll be right back after a break.

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I want to ask you about something that runs deep in Hollywood, and that is something that you've talked quite a bit about, Scarlett, the objectification of women.

And, you know, you wanted to be a director as a young girl and your career went into another direction, but you have fought for quite a bit of time this

bombshell actor persona.

And

you've said like that type of role burns bright.

and quick and then it's done.

You seem to understand that early on, but when did you start to figure out how to fight it?

You know, I think probably in my

mid-20s,

I felt really frustrated, you know, with the kinds of roles that I was being offered.

And it was like my career kind of took this

right turn

where suddenly I was playing either like the other woman or the girl piece on the side, you know, the girlfriend or

a object of desire.

And I mean, and that's okay.

I mean, certainly there's, there's those parts or some of them can be quite interesting and meaty.

I did a film called Matchpoint that Woody Allen directed which was a very complex version of that person but you kind of want to do other stuff and I think you know as any actor you can get you get sort of sidelined and and and pigeonholed and it's your own

I think your own responsibility to get yourself out of those

tight spots.

Like no one's going to do that for you, you know?

And so

I

had the opportunity to do an Arthur Miller play called View from the Bridge that Greg Mosier was directing with Liev Schreiber and Michael Christopher and Jessica Hecht, who's in Eleanor the Great as well.

And I've always loved Arthur Miller.

And I had never done theater before, but I felt it was, oh, a chance to try something challenging that I, you know, hadn't seen in a long time

it was really through that process that I understood oh actually

I can sit and I can wait you know for the right roles to come that I suddenly felt more confident in my ability as an actor and so that's what I did

you know I

rejected the roles that were familiar to me and started working on things that were

actively looking for and

roles that were things I had never done before.

And it was a real turning point for me.

That play, you actually won the Tony Award for Best Featured Actress in 2010.

That was a big pivotal time for you and maybe a confirmation of what you were doing.

I guess

having

an accolade like that, it shouldn't necessarily count as a confirmation.

I guess, you know, I mean, it helps.

But actually, what it really was, what was so validating was actually being embraced by the Broadway community.

That was what was so validating about that experience was, you know, meeting a whole new group of directors and producers.

And I felt like I was embraced, you know, with open arms.

kind of being inducted into that family, it was profound and it was it was validating, even more than the Tony win.

Although, like I said, that was nice.

It doesn't hurt.

It didn't hurt.

It didn't hurt, no.

June, when you hear Scarlett talking about her path to breaking out of that persona,

what were your early experiences in the theater like for you?

It's difficult because you are put in a niche and it's an earning niche, it's a comfortable niche, but as Scarlett said, you have to do it yourself.

I don't think there's any way anyone's going to do it for you.

And in fact, you know, I did the same thing with the musical theater and becoming an actress per se.

And

it's not easy.

But, you know, it's ridiculous to have to do that.

It was ridiculous for Scarlett to have to do that.

But that is what the whole industry industry tends toward, certainly.

What were some of the ways you navigated it when you were younger?

Well, I married my second husband, and he was an acting teacher, and he was determined, almost more than I was, that I was going to become a fine actress.

And so he started working with me.

And that made a tremendous difference.

And then I actually had to turn down musical work, and I started going, doing much more regional theater

and after a few seasons of doing regional theater as an actress rather than a musical performer and then I started doing off off Broadway.

Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb, thank you so much for this film and this conversation.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb's new film is Eleanor the Great.

Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller.

Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.

Our managing producer is Sam Briger.

Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne-Marie Boldonado, Lauren Crinzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challener, Susan Nakundi, and Anna Bauman.

Our digital media producer is Molly C.B.

Nesper.

Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson.

Teresa Madden directed today's show.

With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.

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