Remembering Diane Keaton

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Speaker 2 This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross.
Today we remember actor Diane Keaton, who has died at the age of 79. We'll listen back to my 1997 interview with her.

Speaker 2 Among the things we talked about were her performance in Annie Hall for Wichu and Oscar and her role in The Godfather. First, we'll hear an appreciation from our TV critic David Biancoule.

Speaker 3 Diane Keaton, over her long and distinguished career, demonstrated her ability to excel in a number of different venues.

Speaker 3 She acted in dozens of film comedies and dramas, earning Tony and Oscar nominations along the way.

Speaker 3 She wrote more than a dozen books, including a memoir, and directed documentary and scripted movies as well.

Speaker 3 She was a gifted singer, as evidenced by her unforgettable rendition of Seems Like Old Times in Annie Hall.

Speaker 3 And for that same 1977 Woody Allen film, she won an Academy Award as Best Actress.

Speaker 3 She played the title role of Annie Hall, a woman who meets a neurotic writer and comic named Alvie Singer, played by Woody Allen.

Speaker 3 Over the course of the film, Annie and Alvie fall in love, then fall out of love. On a plane trip back from LA to New York, we hear their thoughts as they sit there silently.

Speaker 3 Silently, that is, until Annie addresses Alvie directly and finally speaks her mind. As does he.

Speaker 4 I have to face facts.

Speaker 4 I adore Alvie, but our relationship doesn't seem to work anymore. I'll have the usual trouble with Annie in bed tonight.

Speaker 4 What do I need this?

Speaker 4 If only I had the nerve to break up, but it would really hurt him.

Speaker 4 If only I didn't feel guilty asking Annie to move out. It'd probably wreck her.
But I should be honest. Alvie,

Speaker 4 let's face it, you know, I don't think our relationship is working.

Speaker 4 I know. A relationship, I think, is like a shock.
You know, it has to constantly move forward or it dies.

Speaker 4 And I think what we got on our hands is a dead shock.

Speaker 3 Annie Hall made Diane Keaton a major star, and the outfits she put together for that character made her a major fashion influencer before influencers were a thing.

Speaker 3 But by then, she'd already been in films and had a notable stage career.

Speaker 3 Diane Keaton appeared on Broadway in the late 1960s, first as a member of the ensemble cast of the rock musical Hair, and eventually as the female lead, Sheila.

Speaker 3 However, she turned down the bonus money to appear naked in certain scenes.

Speaker 3 In 1969, she earned a Tony nomination for her role in Woody Allen's comedy Play It Again, Sam, a role she repeated on film in 1972.

Speaker 3 That same year, she played Kay, the wife of Al Pacino's Michael Corleone, in the first Godfather film.

Speaker 3 In the 70s, she re-teamed with Allen for a series of classic comedies, including Sleeper, Love and Death, and Annie Hall, as well as the more somber Interiors and Manhattan.

Speaker 3 She earned Oscar nominations for three other films, Reds, Marvin's Room, and Something's Gotta Give, and maintained a career moving from comic to dramatic roles.

Speaker 3 She was impressively relatable and believable in both, and her on-screen chemistry with her co-stars occasionally blossomed into off-screen chemistry as well.

Speaker 3 Her real-life romantic relationships included Woody Allen, Al Pacino, and her Reds co-star Warren Beatty.

Speaker 3 Keaton's screen comedies included The Father of the Bride movies, The First Wives Club, Baby Boom, and Manhattan Murder Mystery. Her dramas included Looking for Mr.

Speaker 3 Goodbar and Marvin's Room, which is the film which Diane Keaton and Terry discussed in 1997.

Speaker 3 So at this point, I'll turn it back to Terry.

Speaker 2 David Biancouli is a TV historian and fresh airs TV critic. He'll be back later in the show to review a new documentary about actor John Candy.

Speaker 2 Now we're going to hear the interview I recorded with Diane Keaton in 1997. We talked about several of her films.

Speaker 2 We began with a clip from Marvin's Room, which had just been released, and earned her an Oscar nomination. Keaton and Meryl Streep starred as sisters with opposite temperaments.

Speaker 2 Keaton played Bessie, who has dedicated her life to taking care of her father ever since a stroke left him bedridden.

Speaker 2 Streep played Lee, who's cut herself off from the family to establish an independent life. After Bessie is diagnosed with leukemia, Lee returns to visit for the first time in years.

Speaker 2 Keaton's character, Bessie, confronts her.

Speaker 4 Why can't you take Dad and Ruth?

Speaker 5 I don't think so.

Speaker 4 You can move down here. You could have the house.

Speaker 5 No, I got hang to think about.

Speaker 4 He's very unhappy there.

Speaker 5 Of course he's unhappy. If he were happy, he wouldn't be there.

Speaker 4 You could have him transferred. You could find a very nice place for him here.
You could have the whole house. You could have the such money.

Speaker 2 You could find work down here, Lee.

Speaker 5 No.

Speaker 4 Why not? Just

Speaker 4 no. Well, then give me one good.
Because I don't want to.

Speaker 5 I made this decision once already. When Daddy had his first stroke, I made this decision then.
I was not going to waste my life.

Speaker 4 Do you think I've wasted my life?

Speaker 2 Of course not.

Speaker 4 I can't imagine a better way to have spent my life.

Speaker 5 Well, then, we both made the right decision.

Speaker 4 What a decision! Dad got sick, and I came down to help out for a little while, you did.

Speaker 2 Your role in Marvin's room is really the opposite of the kind of role we first got to know you from from in your Woody Allen movies.

Speaker 2 Your character of Bessie is somebody who, first of all, dresses in very kind of Kmart-type fashions.

Speaker 2 Literally.

Speaker 2 Lives in a very sheltered world, is steadfast in her devotion to her family, and has very little of a life outside of that. She's the kind of person who doesn't leave home, who's never left home.

Speaker 2 And you're so convincing in both of those kind of roles.

Speaker 2 But this one somehow seems really far from your own life to me, is it?

Speaker 2 Oh, yes. I would say that yes, it is quite far from my life.

Speaker 5 No, there's clearly really nothing in common between Bessie and I except probably just this

Speaker 5 intense identification with her for me when I read it. So

Speaker 5 I wanted to give it a try, sort of like, you know, after I did Annie Hall, I did Looking for Mr. Goodbar.
And that was also something, well, what?

Speaker 5 I mean, why would anyone want to play that after playing Annie Hall? But the truth of the matter is, is that I was very attracted to the darker side of that woman.

Speaker 5 Do you know that she had two lives, this friendly, nice,

Speaker 5 outgoing teacher of the deaf, and then this

Speaker 5 this woman who haunted the bars looking for men and dangerous men and paid the price. I think that when you're an actress, you're just intensely attracted to

Speaker 5 projects with substance. And I really felt that this had substance besides the fact that it was also very well written in the humor department, also.

Speaker 2 But this is a character who's kind of given up her own independence and her own personal pursuits to take care of her father and her aunt.

Speaker 2 Now, when you're an actress, you have to be the opposite in a way. You have to be selfish in a professional sense.

Speaker 2 I mean, you have to kind of make a lot of sacrifices to pursue your career, to really obsess on roles and things like that. So what did you draw on for this character who was so different from you?

Speaker 5 I think what I drew on was my wish to play somebody like that. I really don't, do you know? And also I think, of course, family.
There's no question that

Speaker 5 my most intense feelings of affection

Speaker 2 are

Speaker 5 are with my family.

Speaker 5 So I think family and also the chance to try and play something where I'm a giving person instead of a driven ambitious person like I am in life.

Speaker 2 Right. You know what I find so interesting about you? As I said, I think you're really convincing in so many different kinds of roles.

Speaker 2 And in Marvin's Room, you're playing a character that is really very honest. Nothing is couched in irony.

Speaker 2 And many of your other characters, well, particularly in the Woody Allen movies, there's so many things that have quotation marks around them.

Speaker 2 And I guess I'm interested in what it's like to inhabit both of those worlds through your roles. You know, the character who doesn't live in a world of irony, and then the character who does.

Speaker 5 It's easier for me to be in the world of the ironic because it sort of comes...

Speaker 5 more naturally to me.

Speaker 5 I had trouble with this part regarding certain primary scenes, and I'm talking about the part of Bessie in Marvin's room.

Speaker 5 I would go up to the director and say, do you know that last scene? I don't know if you saw this, Terry, but the last scene where, well, obviously you did. You had to, probably.

Speaker 5 Anyway, the last scene,

Speaker 5 and I have to say to Meryl,

Speaker 5 I'm so lucky to have loved so much. I'm so lucky.

Speaker 5 I really, literally couldn't say that because it's dead on, flat on. the truth, the feeling of the moment, the depth of that moment.

Speaker 5 And I remember the director saying, no, Diane, you have to say that.

Speaker 2 You have to say those lines.

Speaker 5 And I was going, no, because listen, let me tell you something. As far as I'm concerned, if somebody called me up, if somebody doctor called me up and said, guess what? Nothing's working.

Speaker 5 And yeah, you are going to die. I couldn't sit there and get down on the floor and pick up those pills and say to my sister, I'm so lucky to have loved so much.

Speaker 5 I'm so like, I said, I would be terrified. No, no, no, that's not the intention.
And because really, the heart of the piece is in that. You know, it's right there in those lines at the end there.

Speaker 5 And I was fighting it and Meryl Streep came up into my room and she told me also in a very kind way that this is someplace I have to try and go and imagine of course I can't imagine it but on the other hand you have to kind of get swept away and one of the reasons I think that I was helped was of course because of Meryl because somehow

Speaker 5 Being and looking into Meryl's face, she just kind of lifted me up and helped me go there. But frankly, it's not easy for me.
It's just not not easy. It's hard to imagine being that kind of a person.

Speaker 2 I guess I'm shallow. No, but let me ask you this.
How do you decide with lines like that whether there's something that doesn't ring true about the script or whether

Speaker 5 you're a different kind of person than the character?

Speaker 5 No, I think that it did ring true with the script.

Speaker 5 I think I did have to say those lines because I think that that's the kind of person she is at the core, that she can leave it and she can accept the fact that she's going to be

Speaker 5 leaving everybody permanently. So in that case, I really think as I was just begging for help and I got help.

Speaker 5 In another scene,

Speaker 5 you know, I was also saying to the director, listen, this is overwritten.

Speaker 5 This was a case where I thought, you know, I put on my director's hat, ha ha, and I had to say these lines about this boyfriend that I had and how he went swimming and how I saw him drown in front of my eyes.

Speaker 5 And I was just going, this is ridiculous. I can't say this.
There's no way I'm going to say this because frankly, it sounds fake. It sounds like a speech.

Speaker 5 And again, Jerry Zach came up to me and said, no, Diane, you have to do it. You have to try to do this and make it real for you.
I just said this impossible. And of course, you know, I did it.

Speaker 5 And you know something? I like it when I see it. I actually like that.
I thought it was funny. I somehow managed to get through it.
I don't know. I think that I'm afraid.

Speaker 5 I think I'm kind of a chicken actress, and I think that people really have to keep saying, you can do it, you can do it. And it really tells you.

Speaker 5 I mean, as an actress, it really informs me how much I desperately need a director who cares.

Speaker 5 It's so important to have somebody watching me. You know, I mean, you constantly are battling with yourself when you're acting in a part.
At least I am, because it's just not that easy for me.

Speaker 2 It must be interesting now that you're directing more, too.

Speaker 2 Because when the director is performing at 10 as... is yeah, but now you can act as your own director in a way and you're wearing two.

Speaker 5 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, Terry. No, no, no.

Speaker 5 No way. I don't think you really have.
I'm not one of those people who I have a third eye or anything. I mean, when I'm acting, I'm acting and I need help.
And when I'm directing, I'm watching.

Speaker 5 I'm looking. I'm observing.
And it's entirely different. And it's an entirely different place.
And I really don't feel that the two live together. I mean, for me, I can't.

Speaker 5 I have to be feeling it or otherwise I'm dead flat and just nothing. And if I'm not feel and if I'm not feeling, see if I if I'm not feeling it then I can watch.

Speaker 5 But how can I watch when I'm trying to be there? I'm the person who they just said, you know, you're gonna die. I have to be there.
I don't have a good enough imagination, which is why

Speaker 5 it's harder for me. Like when I see Meryl Streep, I go, oh my god, she's got everything.
She's got a brilliant imagination. She has a great depth of emotional life.

Speaker 5 She has this amazing ability, and this also goes for Leonardo DiCaprio, to mimic and mime and do voices and accents and all this and she does it in her her life plus she has a great conceptual mind it's just a little bit not a little bit it's a lot harder for me well you're not you're not doing

Speaker 5 I think naturally you know what I'm gonna get back to answering your question I think that I'm more inclined to live comfortably in the world of humor

Speaker 5 uh-huh than drama yeah oh well I mean everyone's told me that too so I think it's true.

Speaker 2 But but you're very convincing in drama. You really are.

Speaker 5 Yeah, because I really beat myself up to get there.

Speaker 2 Diane Keaton, your mother was a beauty queen, yes?

Speaker 5 No. No, here's what she was.

Speaker 5 Although she is very beautiful, by the way.

Speaker 5 No, she was Mrs. Los Angeles.

Speaker 2 That's entirely different.

Speaker 5 It means that when I was growing up in the 50s, we lived in Highland Park in Los Angeles. And I remember I was about eight or nine, and my mother,

Speaker 5 you know, became Mrs. Highland Park.

Speaker 5 And I remember sitting down in the stage and watching her being crowned Mrs. Highland Park, and it was that she was the perfect homemaker.

Speaker 5 I went to win Mrs. Highland Park.
She kept making these chocolate cakes every day that we had to eat.

Speaker 2 And this was, you know, this was what she was.

Speaker 5 And then she went on to be Mrs. Los Angeles because she made a good spaghetti or something.
I don't know.

Speaker 5 And they came around at like seven in the morning, the judges, and looked at our house, which was insane to see if she was a neat homemaker.

Speaker 5 And so that was very exciting for about, I think it lasted for about four months.

Speaker 5 But then she made it to the finalists of Mrs. California, but then she didn't get Mrs.
California. She was too good for him.

Speaker 2 She was too good for him. What did she win when she won Mrs.
Highland Park?

Speaker 5 Oh, appliances. Oh, please.
You know, just the best appliances ever and, you know, luggage and all those great things.

Speaker 2 Did you want to be a happy homemaker?

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 5 No, I did not want to be a happy homemaker. Uh-uh.
That did not appeal to me. But I did want to go on stage.

Speaker 2 I saw that that was something that did appeal to me.

Speaker 5 There she was in the theater, and I saw the curtain open, and there was my mother. And I thought, hmm, I think I like that for myself.

Speaker 2 It's funny, so you kind of got the wrong message here.

Speaker 2 I did. I got the total wrong message.

Speaker 5 She was, I like life.

Speaker 2 Yeah, she was presented as the picture of domesticity, and you interpreted that as show business. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 Leave it to me.

Speaker 2 One of your early roles was in hair. And every profile I've read of you, every written profile.
I didn't take off my clothes. Exactly.

Speaker 2 Every profile mentions that during the nude scenes or nude scenes in hair, that when everybody else was naked, you were wearing a body stocking. And I couldn't help but wonder if the cast...

Speaker 5 No, I wasn't wearing a body stocking. No, no.
The situation was that we were all under this huge tarp or something doing, you know, and we were lying there.

Speaker 5 And there would be holes in the tarp, and people would stand up at the appropriate moment. And you sort of just stand naked.

Speaker 5 That was how that was. And I just remember lying under the tarp and seeing all my friends get naked over the course of time and I just didn't want to do it.

Speaker 5 It just didn't seem worth it to me at the time. I didn't want to do it.
Standing naked in the dark and getting cold, you know, it just didn't seem like fun.

Speaker 5 The only reason I didn't do it, it just, you know, it wasn't worth it.

Speaker 2 So how did you avoid doing it?

Speaker 5 I didn't. It wasn't a requirement by any means.
Oh, okay.

Speaker 5 It was optional and it was suggested and you would get $50 extra. No.
It's a money gig. It was a money gig,

Speaker 2 like everything else. That's funny.
So did anybody in the cast kind of

Speaker 2 make fun of the people who were not willing to take their clothes off?

Speaker 5 Not really, but it was sort of get behind the spirit of it all. But hey, frankly, I was, you know, I just graduated from the neighborhood playhouse, and I really wasn't a hippie.
I never was a hippie.

Speaker 5 I was basically always an actress.

Speaker 5 And so I just didn't really get behind it in terms of the spirit of the moment. Besides that we were all in show business.
I never believed that it was like, you know, peace, love, and happiness.

Speaker 2 No, I want to ask you about your early films with Woody Allen. You first worked with him in the Broadway production of Play It Again, Sam, which he wrote and also started.
Oh, right, Again.

Speaker 2 When I was in hair.

Speaker 5 When I was in hair, I auditioned for Play It Against Sam. Oh.
Which is interesting.

Speaker 2 What was the audition like?

Speaker 5 You know what I remember about it, of course, was being terrified typical. And him.

Speaker 5 I remember that he got on stage with with me, and I remember being very attracted to him, because I already was attracted to him, because he was Woody Allen.

Speaker 5 Even at that point, we used to see him on the Tonight Show.

Speaker 5 He was very funny and really appealing person. And I never thought I would get the part.

Speaker 2 Why not?

Speaker 5 Because there were a lot of other people auditioning, and why me?

Speaker 5 I didn't know. But anyway, I did.

Speaker 2 When you started working with him, did you relate to his brand of New York Jewish neurosis humor?

Speaker 5 Oh, of course. I'd seen him on the Tonight Show.
I thought he was hilarious. Oh, sure.

Speaker 5 Who didn't?

Speaker 5 Do you remember? I mean, do you remember when he was coming up?

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5 He was, I mean, you just fell in love with him. Or I did anyway.

Speaker 2 You know, the movies are based in part on the tension between your background and his background. And you're always cast, you know, in his movies as,

Speaker 2 or usually cast in his movies as like the Shiksah, the one who's not Jewish.

Speaker 2 and so there's this kind of uh uh interplay between you know the the jewish neurotic east coaster and the woman who's not from the east coast who's whose neuroses are kind of different and not jewish

Speaker 2 did that did that tension come from real life

Speaker 5 oh i think so

Speaker 5 i i would say sure

Speaker 2 at this point yes did did you see yourself differently through his eyes through the character that he created for you?

Speaker 4 Are you talking about Annie Hall?

Speaker 2 Sure, let's talk about Annie Hall. Let's focus it and talk about Annie Hall.

Speaker 5 I mean, I think that, frankly, when

Speaker 5 I read the script, I just flipped. I knew it was great, and it was very easy just to be...
But I didn't,

Speaker 5 I mean, I didn't really

Speaker 5 think that it was per se me, although there were these characters. They were similar in feel, but not in specific, you know, the actions, the events were not the same at all

Speaker 2 we're listening back to my 1997 interview with diane keaton she's died at the age of 79. we'll hear more of the interview after a break i'm terry gross and this is fresh air

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Speaker 2 We're remembering Diane Keaton, who's died at the age of 79. Keaton starred in the classic films Annie Hall, for which she won an Oscar, and the Godfather trilogy, as well as looking for Mr.

Speaker 2 Goodbar, Reds, Mrs. Sofal, Father of the Bride, The First Wives Club, and Something's Gotta Give.
Here's a scene from Annie Hall, in which she co-starred with Woody Allen, who also directed the film.

Speaker 2 She and Woody Allen's character had just been introduced to each other on the tennis court. Now they're preparing to leave.

Speaker 4 You play very well. Oh, yeah, so do you.

Speaker 5 Oh, God,

Speaker 4 what a dumb thing to say, right? I mean, you say it you play well, and then right away, I have to say you play well.

Speaker 2 Oh, oh, God, Annie.

Speaker 4 Well.

Speaker 2 Oh, well.

Speaker 4 La-di-da, la-di-da, la-la, yeah.

Speaker 4 Uh, do you... You wanna lift?

Speaker 4 Oh, why? Uh,

Speaker 4 you got a car?

Speaker 4 No, I'm I was gonna take a cab. Oh, no, I have a car.

Speaker 5 You have a car?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 4 I don't understand. If you have a car, so then

Speaker 4 why did you say do you have a car like you wanted to lift?

Speaker 4 I don't I don't I geez, I don't know. I wasn't

Speaker 4 it's I got this VW out there.

Speaker 4 What a jerk, yeah. Would you like a lift?

Speaker 4 Sure.

Speaker 4 Which way are you going? Me? Um, downtown.

Speaker 4 I'm going uptown. Oh, well, you know, I'm going uptown too.

Speaker 4 You just said you were going downtown. Yeah, well, but I can go uptown.

Speaker 4 I can go uptown, too. I live uptown, but what the hell? I mean, it'd be nice having company, you know? I mean, I hate driving alone.

Speaker 2 Now, the inflections that you used in Annie Hall,

Speaker 2 a voice that's often speaking in irony, a voice that has a lot of insecurity in it as well as humor. How did you come up with that inflection?

Speaker 5 Well that, that, I didn't even come up with it. I just delivered it.
It was just there. I think that was something that he trusted and enjoyed.

Speaker 5 Did you happen to read that profile on him in the New Yorker? No. That was interesting because Diane Weiss was talking about him.

Speaker 5 And if something isn't working, he's very simple about why it isn't working. Well, with Annie Hall, when I was doing Annie Hall, everything seemed to be working.
He just didn't question it.

Speaker 5 We were going with kind of the spontaneous impulses that we were feeling at the time in those scenes, and we just let it rip. I think Diane Weiss was saying, you know, in

Speaker 5 Bullets Over Broadway when she won the Academy Award that that character wasn't happening. And he called her up and he said, it's no good.
And she didn't know what to do. She didn't know.

Speaker 5 And he said, he came up with an idea and he said, think's your voice. Let's just lower it.
Do you believe it? It's that simple. And then she had it.
She had the character and it was amazing.

Speaker 5 I mean, she's amazing anyway. But what I'm saying is it was a very simple solution to what a lot of people would have made a very complicated problem.

Speaker 2 Do you see what I mean? Yeah.

Speaker 5 He just cuts through all the time in every way.

Speaker 2 Was your inflections and your voice in Annie Hall a voice that you really spoke in or is it the voice of the character that you found and what was your process of finding it?

Speaker 5 No, I think I spoke in that character at that point in my life. Oh, okay.
I think that's the way I talked.

Speaker 2 Did you say La Di Da?

Speaker 5 Never did say that, though.

Speaker 2 Daddy wrote. Was that on the page? I mean, if I saw La Di Da on the page, I think, oh man, this is never going to work.
And of course it really works terrifically.

Speaker 5 Did you think that? I think it's because it worked, because I think that there was this, it was the way we were working.

Speaker 5 In other words, it's how he directs, which is to loosen it up, just to loosen the whole thing up and just fly with it.

Speaker 5 And then it worked. I know that doesn't seem like a very good line does it la di da well it wouldn't to me on the page it really would not

Speaker 2 but but it does in the movie it worked yeah now I want to ask you about the Godfather movies you're in all three of them

Speaker 2 now in in particularly in the first two movies you were the woman in a world of men and

Speaker 2 laugh but so funny yes I was I was the woman in a world of men and that's really brought home at the end of the first godfather movie where Alfred

Speaker 2 slams the door in your face and makes it really clear that now that he's the head of the family,

Speaker 2 you're going to be shut out of a lot of his life.

Speaker 5 Oh, it's a world I know nothing about. Do you know when we were making it, it was just I didn't know what was going on and I just did feel left out.

Speaker 2 I really felt that way.

Speaker 5 And I also felt I never understood why he cast me in that ever. I still don't understand why he cast me in that.

Speaker 5 I never thought, you know, at that point in my life, people viewed me as being kind of kooky. You know, I was like the kooky actress.
And he cast me in that role.

Speaker 2 Right,

Speaker 2 serious. Yes, and sensible, down-to-earth, proud.
I'm telling you, it's nothing.

Speaker 5 I never got it. And he never, I don't know what made him pick me.

Speaker 5 That was a lucky break.

Speaker 2 So in what ways did you feel maybe kind of left out or the outsider on the Godfather sets?

Speaker 5 I think in every way I felt the outsider. There was nobody that really became my friend on those movies.

Speaker 5 I guess

Speaker 5 I really

Speaker 2 know that you had a relationship with him.

Speaker 5 But not as I mean, it wasn't like we palled out. We weren't, do you know what I mean? He was very private and separate from me.
And in the first one, I really didn't know him very well.

Speaker 5 And I think he was also overwhelmed by the enormity of his part. And he was so

Speaker 5 profoundly, I think, great in that movie. I think when he has to murder for the first time,

Speaker 5 I think that's a very amazing performance he gave. So he was really a loner.
He was really

Speaker 5 involved with that part.

Speaker 5 He was separate from the other guys, I felt. And he was in the movie, too.

Speaker 5 But I just didn't know what the hell was going on. I was, what, 23? I didn't know anything about movies.
I was overwhelmed by the entire...

Speaker 5 the entire enterprise. I really was.

Speaker 2 What did you have to do for the audition?

Speaker 5 Read with a lot of different guys. I read with Jimmy Khan.
They couldn't decide on Al Pacino. They just couldn't decide.
They didn't know what to do.

Speaker 5 I think Francis' heart was with Al Pacino, but a lot of people wanted Jimmy Kahn.

Speaker 5 But there was a group of guys that I read with, and they just kept reading me with them.

Speaker 2 My guest is Diane Keaton. Here she is as Kay Corleone, with Al Pacino as Michael Corleone.

Speaker 2 In a scene from Godfather 2, their marriage is on the rocks, and she's just had what he assumes was a miscarriage.

Speaker 4 I'll change.

Speaker 4 I've learned that I have the strength to change.

Speaker 4 And you'll forget about this miscarriage.

Speaker 4 And we'll have another child, and we'll go on.

Speaker 4 You and I.

Speaker 2 We'll go on.

Speaker 4 Oh.

Speaker 4 Oh, Michael.

Speaker 4 Michael, you are blind.

Speaker 4 It wasn't a miscarriage.

Speaker 4 It was an abortion.

Speaker 4 An abortion, Michael.

Speaker 4 Just like our marriage is an abortion.

Speaker 4 Something that's unholy and evil.

Speaker 4 I didn't want your son, Michael.

Speaker 4 I wouldn't bring another one of your sons into this world.

Speaker 4 It was an abortion, Michael.

Speaker 4 It was a son, a son, and I had it killed because this must all end.

Speaker 4 I know now that it's over.

Speaker 4 I knew it then.

Speaker 4 There would be no way, Michael. No way you could ever forgive me.
Not with this Sicilian thing that's been going on for 2,000 years.

Speaker 4 You won't take my children.

Speaker 4 I will. You won't take my children.
You're my children, too.

Speaker 2 We'll get back to our interview with Diane Keaton after a break. This is fresh air.

Speaker 1 Support for NPR and the following message come from Warner Brothers Pictures, presenting Sinners, written and directed by Ryan Kugler and starring Michael B. Jordan.

Speaker 1 The New York Times calls Sinners a big-screen exultation, a passionate, effusive praise song about life and love, including the love of movies.

Speaker 1 And Time Out says, Ryan Kugler's bold vision makes sinners a a true event an exuberant widescreen experience that stirs the soul centers is awards eligible in all categories including best picture best director and best actor this message comes from wise the app for using money around the globe when you manage your money with wise you'll always get the mid-market exchange rate with no hidden fees join millions of customers and visit wise.com t's and c's apply this message comes from capital one commercial bank your business requires commercial banking solutions that prioritize your long-term success.

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Member FDIC.

Speaker 2 Now, you've been in films that are just kind of landmarks in American film history now. And you've also been in some really fine films that haven't become as famous.

Speaker 2 And I'd like you to choose one of those films that you particularly like and would like to call people's attention to.

Speaker 2 Oh, I don't know.

Speaker 5 You pick it. I can't pick what's good.

Speaker 2 I don't know. Well, I like your performance a lot in Mrs.
Sofal,

Speaker 2 where you play the wife of a prison guard who ends up falling in love with one of the prisoners and helps him escape. And it's just a very interesting performance.

Speaker 5 I was so excited by that part. I wanted that so bad.
I was after Jill, Jillian Armstrong, the director, for so many years. I kept trying to snatch her up and get her to do something with me.

Speaker 5 I was constantly on her. And finally, she came up with something, and it was this.
It was her idea. She loved this true story.
And I was so excited.

Speaker 5 And the whole thing was just kind of a thrilling experience. And plus, it was the first time in my life where I started watching the director.

Speaker 5 I was looking at what she was doing because I started to have little thing, you know, little inklings of expanding myself.

Speaker 5 And so I took kind of an, I had a notebook of her shots, and I'd write down her shots to try to understand what she was doing because I think she's a wonderful director, and I think she's a very visual director.

Speaker 2 When you started directing,

Speaker 2 or maybe even now, when you direct, are you or have you ever been shy or uncomfortable

Speaker 2 about assuming the power one needs to assume in order to direct?

Speaker 5 Yeah, oh, that's so obvious, yes. Yeah, no question about it.

Speaker 5 I mean, it's not my way, but it's the desire to do it it that overrides the

Speaker 5 fear of saying to somebody,

Speaker 5 that's not good, we've got to do it again. I mean, can you imagine saying that to somebody like Annie McDowell?

Speaker 2 And I did it.

Speaker 5 I didn't think I could, but I did.

Speaker 2 Did you have to find a different voice to use? I mean, the voice that you're most famous for in terms of movie roles is that voice of being unsure.

Speaker 2 And you can't, I don't think you can really speak with that voice when you're trying to be confident in giving directions to other people, especially like very sensitive actors and actresses who might be wounded by criticism.

Speaker 5 I think actors know when they're not towing the line.

Speaker 5 I believe in the instincts of the actors, and I believe if you cast it correctly, if you have the privilege to cast it correctly, because that's not so easy. Casting is a very, very, very important

Speaker 5 thing in a movie. Movies don't get made without the right cast, as you know.
So if you get the right cast, they know if they're not delivering.

Speaker 5 And if if they believe in you as an audience, because really as a director, that's what you are. You're their audience.
You're their parent.

Speaker 5 You're the person who's watching them and judging whether or not they're giving you what they can give you.

Speaker 5 And if they trust you as an audience member, I think you don't have to say much except let's do it again. And I just, I need it.
I need more. Or I don't think it's about delving.
For me, I'm not,

Speaker 5 clearly, you know, somebody who wants to sit down and talk about a part.

Speaker 5 I have to trust their instincts and believe in them and give them as much freedom, but also let them know that I'm pushing them, that I'm there to push them, and that I'm there to see when they're not giving me what they can give.

Speaker 5 And I kind of, that's how I did it.

Speaker 2 Now, I want to ask you about the success of First Wives Club. One of the issues that's approached in a comic way in First Wives Club is the issue of plastic surgery.

Speaker 5 Oh, there we go. I love it.
This is my favorite topic.

Speaker 2 Is it really?

Speaker 5 Well, of course. I mean, it's just so big for all us girls out there who are over 40.

Speaker 2 Well, there's so many pressures in the entertainment industry

Speaker 2 to have it. And I really understand why some actresses feel like they have no choice.
My impression is that... But how can you play, here's my feeling.

Speaker 5 How can you be an authentic character? Unless, of course, you're playing an inauthentic. I mean, how can you be a real woman, age 60?

Speaker 5 playing a part of a woman, let's say, in the South who's naive and doesn't know a lot. How can you play that part if you've had a facelift? You can't.
Thank you.

Speaker 5 There's so many things that are taken away from you. And why would you want to play a part when you're younger? Because you're not younger.
You can't be younger.

Speaker 5 So, what is the point of, you know, in other words, what I'm saying is, this is what I am now. How can I be something else?

Speaker 5 You just can't be younger. I'm just telling you, no one can play younger.
I don't believe it for one second. I don't believe it.

Speaker 2 May I say thank you? I feel that, you know,

Speaker 5 watch me, though. Watch me next month.
I'll have a facelift. I tell you, I'll come over there.
You'll see me tell you.

Speaker 2 You'll go, what happened to her?

Speaker 5 And I'll be smiling that look, that sort of mask look.

Speaker 2 No, but I feel like it's a self-perpetuating standard that the more women who do give in under pressure and have plastic surgery, the more pressure everybody else becomes under too, and the more everybody feels like they have no choice.

Speaker 2 You're right.

Speaker 5 You're absolutely right. It's a tough call.
And I admire those women who don't. Look at Jessica Candy.
There was a face for you.

Speaker 5 She never touched her face. Look at that face.
That's great.

Speaker 2 I'm wondering if you still sing. You started your career as a singer, both cabaret and rock.
You sang in Annie Hall.

Speaker 2 Do you still sing?

Speaker 5 You know, I used to take singing lessons. I took singing lessons for like 10 years from this woman, Janet Frank, out of New York, who I love, who's just a wonderful woman.

Speaker 5 I think I just was so in love with music. I was never a great singer.

Speaker 5 But Janet taught me a way to approach a song and try to make it an acting thing, do you know,

Speaker 5 which made it nice for me.

Speaker 2 What's the difference between a singing thing and an acting thing in approaching a song?

Speaker 5 I think that it's the words. It's what you're saying.

Speaker 5 That's the acting approach. It's not

Speaker 5 and then that's how you approach the style of song. Of course, I have a limited thing in terms of being a singer.
It's a very small,

Speaker 5 kind of a delicate little voice, you know, not and not very, not a very big range or anything. And basically I didn't really have a

Speaker 5 I just wasn't good enough. I mean, I just wasn't good enough to be a singer.
So do I sing now? Let me just answer your question because I get so lost in,

Speaker 5 not really.

Speaker 5 I sang in First Wives Club, which was really fun for me.

Speaker 2 With the Motown song or?

Speaker 5 You know, You Don't Own Me.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 5 Yeah, You Don't One Me. And that was really fun.
And I dance, which I don't do, and that was fun too.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 I look forward to another opportunity to try. I don't know if I'll get another one, but we'll see.

Speaker 2 My interview with Diane Keaton was recorded in 1997. She's died at the age of 79.
Toward the end of her Oscar-winning performance in Annie Hall, she sings the song Seems Like Old Times.

Speaker 2 I've always loved the way she sang this.

Speaker 2 Seems

Speaker 2 like

Speaker 2 old

Speaker 2 times,

Speaker 2 dinner days, and flowers.

Speaker 2 all

Speaker 2 times

Speaker 2 staying up

Speaker 2 all hours

Speaker 4 making dreams

Speaker 2 come true

Speaker 2 Doing things we used

Speaker 2 to do

Speaker 2 seems like

Speaker 2 old times

Speaker 2 here

Speaker 2 with

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 2 After we take a short break, our TV critic David Biancoule returns to review a new documentary about actor John Candy. This is Fresh Air.

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Speaker 2 John Candy, the comic actor who rose to fame in the sketch comedy series SCTV and such films as Stripes, Splash, and Spaceballs, died at age 43 in 1994.

Speaker 2 Now, 31 years later, a new documentary pays tribute to Candy and does so in a very intimate and affectionate way. It's called John Candy, I Like Me, and it's now streaming on Prime Video.

Speaker 2 Our TV critic David Biancoule has this review.

Speaker 3 This new movie-length documentary about John Candy is subtitled, I Like Me for a Reason.

Speaker 3 That's the line that Candy says to Steve Martin partway through their film Planes, Trains, and Automobiles, after Martin's character has bombarded Candy's character with a string of increasingly mean insults.

Speaker 3 By the end of that movie, the vulnerability and likability of Candy's character has won Martin's character over. This documentary has the same effect.

Speaker 3 Even if you know little about John Candy, by the time this film is over, you'll miss him a lot.

Speaker 3 John Candy, I Like Me, takes a chronological approach to its subject, but not a typical one. It's more than 20 minutes into the movie before we see any real samples of Candy the Performer.

Speaker 3 We first learn about the type of person he was growing up in Canada. He listened to fire sign theater comedy records and played football.
until he injured his knee and had his kneecapped removed.

Speaker 3 Not replaced, removed.

Speaker 3 We hear from his widow, his now adult children, his friends and other relatives, and also from a ridiculously long list of colleagues, co-stars, and fellow celebrities, all of whom seem all too happy to share the most personal of stories.

Speaker 3 One of them is Bill Murray, who joined Toronto's Second City improv stage group when Candy did.

Speaker 8 We started at the same time, and we were the worst.

Speaker 8 We jumped into a show and they gave us stuff to do, but then you'd have to, the second part of the show was you had to improvise and no one wanted to work with us because we didn't know what we were doing.

Speaker 8 So we'd only work with each other.

Speaker 9 But we were confident. We had a lot of confidence.

Speaker 8 I don't think people today realize how bad you have to be in order to be a perfectionist.

Speaker 8 You have to be bad and know you're bad because there's nothing like being really bad to make you want to be better.

Speaker 3 Murray talks about some of the alter egos Candy adopted on stage and offstage too. Like Like Johnny Toronto, who acted like he owned the city.

Speaker 3 Eventually, Murray points out, John Candy would become Johnny Toronto, beloved by that city, co-owning a Canadian Football League team with hockey superstar Wayne Gretzky, and becoming famous as a TV and movie star.

Speaker 3 That fame started with Second City TV, also known as SC TV, which began in Canada in 1976 and quickly was imported to the U.S.

Speaker 3 It was a low-budget syndicated alternative to Saturday Night Live, which had begun on NBC the year before.

Speaker 3 I loved SCTV the first moment I saw it. And so did Tom Hanks, who recalls stumbling upon it while touring a stage show in Canada as a member of Cleveland's Great Lakes Shakespeare Festival.

Speaker 3 The first sketch he saw was a long parody of Leave It to Beaver, with Harold Ramos as the neighbor kid Whitey and John Candy as the Beaver.

Speaker 10 It It was kind of like the promise of that very first time that I saw him. This subtle, big, grown-up guy dressed up as Jerry Mather, saying, I don't know, gee, Wally.

Speaker 4 That Eddie Haskell, he really makes me mad. Why don't you kill him? Nah, I could go to jail.
Besides, it's against the law. But Beaver, no one would have to know that you did it.
I don't know, Whitey.

Speaker 4 I don't even have a gun. Come on, Beaver.

Speaker 3 Tom Hanks is the father of actor Colin Hanks, who directs John Candy, I like me.

Speaker 3 That may explain why Tom Hanks is interviewed, but it also might explain the appreciation Colin Hanks shows as both director and interviewer for the process of acting and of what being the friend or loved one of an actor is like.

Speaker 3 Because of Second City, we hear from Catherine O'Hara, Andrea Martin, Martin Short, Dave Thomas, and others.

Speaker 3 Because of John Candy's long string of movies, we hear from Steve Martin, Mel Brooks, and Macaulay Culkin, who speaks admiringly of Candy's many films with writer-director John Hughes.

Speaker 3 Those films include Planes, Trains, and Automobiles, and with Culkin, both Home Alone and Uncle Buck.

Speaker 11 If you're going to associate an actor with John Hughes, a lot of people will think like, oh, Molly Ringwald or something like that. And it's like, no, it's John Candy.

Speaker 11 I've done as many John Hughes movies as Molly Ringwald. We've both done three.
I think

Speaker 11 Candy did nine.

Speaker 8 You should associate those two.

Speaker 3 One scene from Candy's film career that this documentary is smart enough to present intact comes from Uncle Buck.

Speaker 3 It features John Candy and eight-year-old Macaulay Culkin meeting and asking questions of one another in a parody of the interrogation style of dialogue made famous by Jack Webb in Dragnet.

Speaker 3 It worked in 1989 and it works now.

Speaker 4 Where do you live? In the city. Do you have a house? Apartment.
On a rent? Rent. What do you do for a living? Lots of things.
Where's your office? I don't have one. How come?

Speaker 2 I don't need one.

Speaker 4 Where's your wife? Don't have one. How come? It's a long story.
Do you have kids? No, I don't. How come? It's an even longer story.
Are you my dad's brother?

Speaker 4 What's your record for consecutive questions asked? 38.

Speaker 3 We also hear from others, like Conan O'Brien, an unabashed John Candy fan in college, who invited him to visit the Harvard campus and specifically the Harvard Lampoon, which Conan edited.

Speaker 3 Conan was astounded that Candy came, amazed by how nice and how present he was, and influenced by a piece of advice Candy gave him at the time.

Speaker 1 I remembered admitting to him that I was very interested in comedy

Speaker 1 and I might even want to try it. I'll never forget this.
He looked me square in the eye and he said, You don't try it. You either do it or you don't do it.

Speaker 3 You don't try it, kid.

Speaker 3 And that spoke to me, like, all in, kid, all in, or not at all.

Speaker 3 I wish this documentary included more samples from Candy's brilliant characters on SCTV.

Speaker 3 And there's virtually no mention of the David Steinberg show, the Canadian Canadian TV series preceding SCTV that gave Candy an even earlier break in 1972.

Speaker 3 But I felt happy and at times a little sad watching John Candy I Like Me.

Speaker 3 Colin Hanks does a fine job of profiling a gifted comic and actor, and by all accounts, a very sweet human being.

Speaker 3 And after you watch the documentary, Prime Video has a handy selection of John Candy movies to dive into, including Uncle Buck, Planes, Trains, and Automobiles, and Space Balls.

Speaker 3 I highly recommend taking that plunge. John Candy, I like him too.

Speaker 2 David Being coolly reviewed John Candy, I Like Me, which is streaming on Prime Video.

Speaker 2 Tomorrow on Fresh Air, we unpack the ceasefire agreement in Gaza with veteran State Department negotiator Aaron David Miller, who's now at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Speaker 2 He says the Gaza deal isn't a lasting peace agreement, but an important step made possible in part by Donald Trump's transactional approach to politics and diplomacy. I hope you'll join us.

Speaker 2 To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPRFresh Air.

Speaker 2 Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.

Speaker 2 Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Bodonato, Laura Prenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Faya Chaloner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Bauman.

Speaker 2 Our digital media producer is Molly Sevi-Nesper.

Speaker 2 Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorock directs the show.
Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

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