Comic Bill Burr [Extended Version]

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This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross.
My guest Bill Burr was recently described by New York Times comedy columnist Jason Zinneman as one of the greatest

living stand-up comics. In Rolling Stone, Burr was described as the undisputed heavyweight champ

of rage-fueled humor. Bill Burr has a new comedy special on Hulu called Drop Dead Years.
It starts

streaming Friday, March 14th. Here's an excerpt.
He's talking about driving on the freeway in LA

where he lives when he's caught in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Meanwhile, there's hardly any cars in the H-O-F-E-R-O-F-E-R-O-F-E-R-O-F-E-R-'s no one else in his car, but he knows the HOV rules are strictly enforced.
I could go in there by myself, okay, but if there's a cop there, I'm going to get pulled over, I'm going to get yelled at, I get a ticket and my insurance goes up. I am not allowed to do that.
However, I can still join the Klan. I can join the Ku Klux Klan and not get in trouble.
I don't get yelled at. I don't get a ticket.
No insurance goes up. I could drive down the highway in my Klan outfit as long as I had the mud flap up.
It could say Grand Dragon on the front of the sheet. I could have a white power bumper sticker.
I could have a Hitler bobblehead right on the dashboard just sitting there going like that. I would not get pulled over unless I went into the HOV lane, right? And then I wouldn't get pulled over because I joined a terrorist organization, I would get pulled over because I didn't have another terrorist with me.

That's what the problem would be.

Yeah, the cop would be coming up like, well, well, well, aren't we in a hurry to get to the cross burning this evening, huh? Who the hell do you think you are, buddy? I'll tell you right now,

you better have a black guy in the trunk or you, sir, are in a lot of trouble. Get your license out.
Okay, that's Bill Burr from his new comedy special. He's also one of the stars of the new Broadway revival of the David Mamet play, Glengarry Glen Ross.
The revival has an incredible cast. Burr, Kieran Culkin, Bob Odenkirk, and Michael McKean.
Burr co-starred in the film King of Staten Island, which was loosely based on the life of the film's star, Pete Davidson. Burr co-created, co-wrote, and starred in the animated series F is for Family.
Although he's known for comedy that's often contrarian and angry, the new comedy special Drop Drop Dead Years, opens like this. It's kind of a weird thing to be over 50, really starting to realize how f*** you are.
Like, I thought I did stand-up because I loved comedy. And then what I really figured out was like, no, that's not why I did it.
I did stand- because that was the easiest way to walk into a room full of a bunch of people that I didn't know and make everybody like me. Ladies and gentlemen, Bill Burr.
All of the way I've moved through the world has always been like, where's the place I have the least chance of being heard? Bill Burr, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.
What's going on? How are you? I'm good. It seems unusual for you to start on a note of vulnerability like you do in this new special.
Does this mark a change in your public or private self?

It's something I've kind of been going towards. But also, I don't think, you know, like most people that get on a stage, they just sort of watch what you do and then think that this little sliver of you is what you are or whatever.
like um Rolling Stone thing saying that I was the king of rage comedy. You know, and it's in Rolling Stone, so everybody listens to it.
So then they just think I'm walking around just furious all the time. It's two-dimensional.
And then there's also a part of me that really hates the fact that I have been so angry and had this temper and stuff. It was something I never wanted to be.
It's something I grew up with. And, you know, you think to yourself, like, I'm not doing that.
I'm not going to be like this person because they're making me feel bad as a kid. And then you grow up and you end up.
It's the weird thing. In order to not be it, I think a lot of times you have to be it for a while.
And it's weird. It takes somebody else in your life to let you know that that's how you're being because a lot of times you just dialed it down a little bit.
And to you, that means you've leveled off. Like where your normal is is not where normal people's normal is.
So you're like, what? You know, I didn't throw a chair across the room. I'm an easygoing guy.
Let stuff roll off my back. So who was the person who told you? Was it your wife, your therapist? God, everybody in my life.
Everybody. People reviewing my act, my wife.
You know, there's only like you can only argue your point, you know, for so long. I mean, when, when like a hundred people in the row are going like, nah, you know, you're pretty angry, you know, you got to be like, all right, I guess I got to look at this, but it's been like a, uh, a great thing, but like, I don't know.
I listen to people. I try to anyway.
So when they come at me with something, you know, if it makes sense.

OK, if it makes sense and I'm in an emotional state that I can actually hear somebody else, which sometimes that might take a day for me to think about something. I am the king of a day later being like, hey, you know, you know, that thing I was arguing last night.
Yeah, you were right.

I'm sorry.

I just, I don't know why.

And you know what's the torture right now is I find myself in the moment now, knowing I'm wrong or knowing I should just stop this argument and it's not worth it. And I, I, I've gotten to the point that that voice is getting louder in my head, but I haven't been able to act on it in the moment.
And that's what I'm working towards. I would love to be in the middle of some stupid argument with my wife or whoever and just be able to stop in the middle of it and just be like, what are we doing? Life is flying by.
This isn't worth anything. You know, this isn't worth it.
Who cares? You know, something like that. At the start of your new special, you said that you started doing stand up because it was the easiest way of walking into a room and making people like you.
They would like me so they wouldn't hurt me. So what kind of hurt? Are you talking about insults or being ignored, bullied, mocked? Every way that you can be abused is what I'm talking about.
Have you been abused in all those ways? Oh, yeah. I got the trifecta.
I have the background needed to become a comedian. So, yeah, it just was – it's just how it was.
And it's just the time I grew up in. And it way it was.
And, uh, there was a lot of it. There was a lot of it.
I did not have a unique experience growing up. I kind of feel like I had the standard, uh, especially from, uh, you know, talking to people, um, or maybe I just hang out with too many comedians.
I don't know what, but we all kind of had a similar background. And, you know, when you go through stuff like that, you come out the other side.
It kind of seems one of two ways. You either come out being like, I'm not doing that.
And then what's funny is you overcorrect. You become super empathetic to the point you could end up in the trunk of somebody's car.
Like, oh, I'll help you out, stranger, you know. Or you go the other way is like you become an abuser.
So fortunately, I didn't do that. But I have been guilty of being abusive, not realizing, you know, the effect that my behavior and my anger was having on the people around me because in my world, I wasn't as angry as what I saw growing up.
So in my world, I wasn't angry. It wasn't a big deal.
And what I've actually found is that whole myth that you can't be happy and still be funny is a myth. And what it actually does is it breathes new life into your act because you can now go back and revisit topics you've been to before and have a 360 perspective instead of like, like I always view like my standup, like the first 75% of my career is me standing on stage pointing at the crowd figuratively, literally, or at whatever subject.
And I was always the guy that knew everything and da- and the the last like you know six seven year whatever i don't know i've more been looking at my uh participation in whatever event is happening so then all that does is it it it gives this whole, it gives me twice as many options for the punchline now. I don't know.
I feel lighter on stage lately. I don't feel, you know, there was times I would even have good stats and I would get off stage and just feel like, God, what was that? What was that? That did not feel good.
Even though the response was good, but it just kind of felt like it just, it didn't feel good. Because it was mean? It was gross.
It was just dark, ugly, just pain and hurt just coming out the wrong way. Which is so funny because some of the comedians that I love the most, the way that they process their pain was a very empathetic sort of way.
Which I would say Richard Pryor was the king of that. where you could, he just really had this ability of talking about, um,

his... I would say Richard Pryor was the king of that, where you could, he just really had this ability of talking about his mistakes that he made in a way that you could see that it bothered him that he did some of these things.
and it also made you root for him. Like I felt like that was the biggest thing I had as far as being a fan of his work

was beyond finding it hilarious and jaw-droppingly brilliant. I found that I was rooting for him in his personal life as he was going through all these marriages and divorces and problems with the cops and drug abuse and lighting himself on fire.

He's just like, I don't know.

I love the guy and I was just hoping he was going to find peace.

I want to back up a little because when you were describing your anger and trying to change,

you said you realized you'd been abusive.

Do you mean verbally or physically?

Oh, no, no, verbally. Good.
I just wanted to clarify that. Okay, I'll give you a classic example of that.
My thing was I grew up and I saw men calling women d***s all the time and I saw the looks on their faces and I saw it. So I made this rule in my head I was never going to do that and I never did it.
I've never done that and never done that to anybody. I've never done that to anybody.
I've never done it in a relationship. I might have done it driving in a car.
I'm sure I have. Well, that's one of the things you've talked about is that you had real road rage sometimes.
I don't even think that's fair of me to say I have road rage. I have rage and now I'm in a car, so now it's on the road.
I have road rage. I have kitchen rage.
I have, why do I have to check myself out at a CVS rage? I don't work here. You know what I mean? I love when they're giving you a rough time.
You got to insert the chip. It's like, I'm sorry, I missed training day when I wasn't working here, getting paid.
Or when they try to get your information and then they go, you know, we don't share this with anybody.

And you want to be like, you don't.

You don't.

But now it's going into the thing.

It's like that clear thing at the frigging airport.

I already I already gave you my retina and a stool sample.

Now you want my cell phone.

They go.

It's a one time thing.

It's like, well, how many times you got to put it in the computer before you have it? You can share it with everybody. Like, this is my thing with like politicians.
The fact that the lack of privacy for the average American citizen, especially women, with the amount of women out there that have psycho ex-boyfriends, the fact that all of these stupid corporations are just allowed to do the things that they're able

to do is beyond me. And where my comedy act is right now is I'm trying to get regular people

to stop yelling at each other and realize that it's a select few group of nerds, okay, eating

raw almonds and doing their stupid workouts and everything and just competing with each other to

have the biggest infinity pool. And the rest of us are getting pushed down.
And they've politicized

Thank you. almonds and doing their stupid workouts and everything and just competing with each other to have the biggest infinity pool.
And the rest of us are getting pushed down. And they've politicized the whole stupid thing.
And we're falling for it. And who's the they besides people who eat almonds? That idiot Elon Musk.
Oh, that guy like he's going to leave who evidently is a Nazi. Like, I just refuse to believe that it was an accidental two times Sieg Heil.
And he does it at a presidential inauguration. This is why I hate liberals.
It's like liberals have no teeth whatsoever. They just go, oh my God, can you believe I'm getting out of the country? I'm just like, you're going to leave the country because of one guy with dyed hair plugs and a laminated face who runs, who makes a bad car and has an obsolete social media platform.
You're going to leave this. Why doesn't he leave? Why isn't he stopped? What are we so afraid of this guy who can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag? You can take him on.
like what is the what why why do liberals just sit back and not they they just they they have nothing what what are you doing this okay this you got to speak up about it you don't just go like oh my god what like like listen first of all it's like i'mup comedian. It's not my frigging, I'm talking about like democratic politicians.
Where is their pushback? They're allegedly liberal. You see this guy do this thing.
You know what the end result of this thing is, which all these neo-Nazis, not only they stupid because they're neo-Nazis, they don't even look at what Hitler did. He ruined their country.
And this idiot is going to try to lead us down that road and then play it off and act like he didn't do what he just did. And you can get canceled as a comedian for doing a frigging Caitlyn Jenner joke, but this ass can see Kyle and nothing.
Where are all the liberals? Where are all of these white chicks at the award shows that were speaking truth to power? Where where are they why did they choose to go after comedians and not the ku klux klan how come they never got canceled that's my whole problem with liberals i just think it's a phony ideology where what they really do is it's a bunch of white chicks trying to fix their immediate area like they really took on entertainment because they were in entertainment and then they didn't do anything else. I'm going to stop you.
You just blamed all of this on white women. Yes.
Where are the men in what you're saying? Exactly. Because you guys went in and you totally took control of the narrative.
That whole me too thing was supposed to be about people with not no power, speaking to people with power and giving more people opportunities, which meant people of color. And then all of a sudden, white women jumped in and became like the biggest victims in the country.
They were the ones that were being listened to. That was what was weird to me.
This is where you kind of lose me. It doesn't surprise me on this station talking to a white woman that I would lose you.
Well, no, because the Me Too movement for women is about sexual assault. But then what did it become? What did it morph into? What did it quickly morph into? It then morphed into I don't like the topic of what you're discussing in your stand-up act.
Well, I don't want to get into an argument about this, so I'll just say. What's funny is this is how I discuss things.
I will just say that, what was the thing that you just said? I just lost it for a second trying to. I'm saying what it became, it started off like, all right, this Harvey Weinstein guy is raping people.
We got to get people like this out of the business. There was nobody who was against that unless you were an actual protecting him.
You know, people were protecting the musicians, the I'm not arguing that. I'm not arguing that aspect of it.
Anyhow, let's move on. Wait, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Let's talk about that. Me too started with that.
And then it started this cancel cultural thing with initially they were getting these people that were sexually assaulting women. And because of their position of power, we're not being held accountable.
They finally got held accountable. Everyone who was a decent human being was on board with that.
And then suddenly within a year, it became if you were at a comedy club and somebody filmed you and took one little piece of excerpt from your act. All of a sudden you were thrown in with Harvey Weinstein and you were kicked.
You were you were like put on the bench, basically, and you were not allowed to work in the friggin business. Am I nuts? Did that not happen? No, I mean, I think cancel culture probably went too far.
I think it's an issue by issue thing. We agree.
And there's there's a real kind of herd mentality around some of it. I think it's an issue by issue thing.
We agree. And there's a real kind of herd mentality around some of it.
I think that's really up for a nuanced discussion about what deserves cancellation and what's just like... Nuanced discussion is not one of my strong points.
Okay. So I'm going to use this opportunity to take a short break and then we'll be right back.
If you're just joining us, my guest is Bill Burr, and he has a new comedy special. It begins streaming on Hulu, March 14th.
We'll be right back. This is Fresh Air.
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So you're in Glengarry Glen Ross now. Fantastic cast.
It's you, Michael McKean, Bob Odenkirk, Kieran Culkin, David Mamet, especially in his earlier work like Glengarry Glen Ross. These are like like verbal fireworks and there's so much like anger and resentment and um subterfuge that goes on in his writing uh really dark characters i don't know what i i'd see a lot of i would at least say with like the character that i'm playing david moss is i see like this guy is in pain he's hurt and uh which is a funny which is just inherently funny because he's going out there and he's selling what he's selling is bs and he's taking gullible people's money to sell them real estate that isn't nearly what they describe it as being yeah no no and then it's like they're lying to people and then he turns around and has the nerve to be hurt about his situation and, and be upset that there's, that the company has no loyalty towards him for all the work that he's done, all the money that he's brought in, that there's no goodwill for all the bad things that he's been doing for the company.
That it's just, it's such, I feel like it's such like

a human thing where, um, like take what I just said when we went, we were doing the

whole Me Too thing.

That's not how I wanted it to come out, but that's the way it comes out because I'm a

flawed human being.

Oh, excuses, excuses.

No, no, no.

I was, I'm saying, no, no.

I believed everything I said, but I would like to have said it in a more rational tone. Yeah, yeah.
But I didn't. I didn't because that was built up over, you know, six, seven years of people just arguing with me about it.
Right. So I'm not I'm not stepping back from anything I said in there.
I believe all of that stuff. It's just like I could have said it a little more eloquent way, but that's just not how I'm wired.
Right? So I relate to this guy in that there's so many times where I hear myself say something. And in the back of my head, there's this voice going like, well, you do X, Y, and Z.
Or what about the time you did this? Or you're doing this. So how do you get off? It's the hypocritical nature.
Yeah. Well, you talk about that one of your specials, like you're driving and somebody cuts you off and you're really furious at them and you're hollering at each other.
And then you think like, yeah, I've done that, too. Yeah.
I've cut people off. But I'm doing it.
But I'm saying that selfishly. I'm not saying that to have empathy for the other person I'm saying that so I won't flip out and I won't lose my mind and then I won't upset the people in the car with me meaning my family so I don't know I'm basically I am a mess of a human being still this far into life and i i don't see it like uh ever fully i don't know if you ever can undo things that were done to you well that's a really good question i know they make you believe it on tv with these therapy shows, you know, like the Dr.
Phil's.

He's like, you need to stop doing heroin.

And then you just go to commercial.

Oh, there you go.

Like that fixes all of that.

So, no, I feel my whole life is going to be like this.

It's going to be me trying to not be who I am, me trying to say something, not saying it the right way, me then feeling that I was misunderstood, and then looking back years later and being like, ah, they were kind of right. Like that is my existence.
Day to day. Week to week, month to month.
It's just what it is. But it makes for good comedy.
You've never been on Broadway before. Was this an ambition? Were you one of the guys who really wanted to be on Broadway? Or were you just surprised to be there? All of that.
I sort of got into acting after stand-up. Stand-up kind of led to acting.
And then I met a few people, comedians that got breaks because of how funny they were, but they never took an acting class. So then when they got their break to be in something, they weren't prepared.
And then, you know, when you're back in the day, you know, you couldn't really reinvent yourself. When you got put on the bench, you were there for like five years and it could be a crucial five five years and then that could have been it and uh it wasn't like you could have a social media platform and just sort of keep moving on or whatever the kids are doing these days but um yeah I just sort of got into acting and I liked it but I never liked it as much as stand-up and then somewhere along the line I started to love it as much as doing stand-up and I think the first time I felt that was I mean I always saw movies and I like movies and everything but like I saw True West with John C.
Reilly and Philip Seymour Hoffman in like 99, 2000.

It's a Sam Shepard play.

Yeah.

And all of a sudden Broadway wasn't cats anymore.

You know, we've been talking about, you know, anger and also channeling that into your work as an actor and a comic.

I watched a clip of you on The Moth.

The Moth is a storytelling podcast that is also a public radio program.

And you're so different in that.

You're sitting on a stool, not kind of pacing back and forth on the stage.

You hadn't shaved your head yet, so you have, you know, red hair.

You hadn't shaved your head yet, so you have red hair. You hadn't gone bald yet.
It was almost like you were 20 years younger. You had a fresh face.
Yeah, is that when it was recorded about 20 years ago? You had no dad bod, you were a single man dealing with the altitude. But you're sitting on a stool telling a story that has a few laughs in it.
Oh, you know what it is? That's what I was battling, and that's why I couldn't get any good roles. The greatest thing that ever happened to me is I went bald for my acting career.
Because then I shaved my head, and I looked like the psycho idiot that I am. But back in the day when I actually had hair, you know, Hollywood, you know, they talk about just, you know, racism

and sex. It goes beyond that.
Like they, they even like, they even divide up redheads. There

was like rules about redheads. I was in the redhead drawer.
Okay. I was in the Opie, Ron Howard,

howdy doody drawer. And like, I didn't get the gun.
I didn't win the fight. I didn't get the girl.
I didn't have it. I was a, I was a mugging victim.
I was just there for the cool guy. And I was saying, I used to do a joke in my act.
Like I'm not the hero of the action movie. Like I was the nerd in the van when Tom cruise is going you got to give me more time and

i would be in front of the keyboard all right i'll try click click click click just getting back to the moth so you're sitting there you're talking pretty quietly it's a it's a quiet voice you sound kind of introspective and it looks on this like blurry video that you you're avoiding making contact with the audience. I'm kind of a pleasant person.

So how did you get from there to your on-stage persona of being kind of loud frequently angry i was i was doing i was still that guy i just was telling a different kind of story i wasn't doing stand-up i was telling a story oh okay so but that's the thing that I was talking about. It's like people watch your standup back and they go, oh, that's, that's how he is.
That's how he is. Now, if I do something like this, you know, you saw me get heated when I was talking about the whole Me Too thing.
You hear that quieter times, you hear silly, you know, self-deprecating, yelling or whatever. I am a big frigging mess.
I i am all of those things but if people watch an hour you stand up and if it's limited the way my my stand-up act was i was only showing one side of me the the anger the hurt and everything of all this crazy stuff that happened to me as a kid that i'll come to the point that I'll never get over it. And especially when you have kids, your own kids, and then you think about the stuff that happened to you and how vulnerable kids are and all of this stuff.
And how could you do stuff just beyond me? And then when you fail as a parent and you do mess up, how much you beat yourself up and everything, it's a, you know, it's, you know, somebody said a lot, life is not for the weak. Let's talk a little bit about your childhood.
Oh, Jesus. People are driving to work here, you know?

Let's try to give them something uplifting.

Your father, apparently, you know, from what I've heard you say,

had real rage problems, real anger problems.

And I'll tell you this, he was a normal guy.

He was normal, like all the dads.

The dads, in my neighborhood when I grew up, dads were freaking terrifying terrifying they were just you know buzz cut lunatics it just was you know this this is when i was really young early 70s they were just like uh you know it just was it was it was a different time so i don't want to single out. My dad, right.
He's just the dude I had to deal with. But like, you know, a lot of my buddies I was growing up with came from divorce.
So they romanticized my household just for the simple fact. That my parents were still together.
So what's funny to me, my favorite moment in my new special is I say, you know, me and my wife, we've been married, whatever, 10, 11 years. And the crowd spontaneously, you know, gives a round of applause.
And I just, I go, hey, hey, I go, you're not in it. You know, for all you know, I got a chain to a radiator.

I know. I love that.
Yeah. So that's the thing.
That's so funny.

I'll tell you, like there was like back in the day, like, you know, divorce was just starting to become normal.

So I sort of grew up towards the tail end of that. You know, you dance with who you brung and you stick with you by your guy.

There was a lot of women that it's like,

is this a marriage or is this like a hostage situation?

It's very funny when you say it

and you're literally right.

I remember one time I was playing like Hot Wheels

or something like that over a buddy of mine's house.

He was like my best friend.

And we were playing and his dad came home from work and didn't know I was there. And he started in on his wife and started, you know, and I knew where it was going because that was the kind of house I grew up in.
And I saw the look of panic on his face. And I knew that shame and I knew that embarrassment.
And I just said, oh, you know what? This is how young we were because he actually believed this. I just went, oh, you know, I just remembered I got to go home and go do something.
And he was like, oh, OK, OK. And I went out the side door and I was cutting through the woods.
And I remember I laughed the whole way home and I couldn't wait to tell my siblings about it. And they were all like blown away, like I had been to the moon and came back.
And I go, no, his dad is just like our dad. They were like, really? I go, yeah, he was screaming and yelling and calling their names.
How we dealt with it, all my siblings was humor. And my younger brother had a boombox with dual cassette tape.

And one time he taped my dad laying and, you know, screaming at my mother. And then he put music underneath it.
He like scored it. And he had Led Zeppelin No Quarter underneath it.
And it was, I'll be honest with you, it was one of the most brilliant pieces of comedy to this day I ever listened to or ever heard. I mean, what he was really saying was,

you know, if you love this woman,

why would you treat her this way?

Why would you say these things?

Why would you do this in front of your kids

and show like this is the way a man acts

with the mother of his kids?

Did your father go off on you?

What do you think? I think probably yes. Oh my God.
Okay. Oh my God.
Yeah. Like, yes, yes.
But this is the thing is I'm older now and I understand that he didn't understand what he was doing, what it was doing to me because he dialed down what was done to him. So the same way I didn't think I was an angry person because I wasn't as angry as him.
It took meeting somebody like my wife to be like, you're really messed up and your behavior is hurting me and it's making me feel bad and all of that type of stuff. So, you know, you know, I almost lost my wife, you know, before we were dating because of it.
And I loved her. And it was like, what am I going to do? Am I going to choose love and work on myself or am I going to lose this person? So, you know, that has been me working on my anger is like a government project.
Like it's over budget. When is it ever going to get done? But, you know, so I would say the big thing that when I was a kid was I felt this powerlessness.
And I just felt like I was on my own and I felt like no one. I felt like I wasn't being heard.
I think you're really good at transforming your real anger and your history of real anger and your history of being the target of real anger into comedy, and an example of that I want to play is from the animated series that you starred in and co-wrote F is for Family. And in the opening episode, the family's sitting around the dinner table and the phone rings and the father really goes off on it and you play the father.
So let's hear that scene and then we'll talk. I'm not answering that.
Frank, you should answer it.

What if somebody got hurt?

Nobody ever gets hurt at supper, Susan, okay?

It's always some salesman, and I'm not answering it.

Dad, we all know you're going to answer it.

You don't know anything about me.

What if it's important?

I sweated blood at that airport for 12 hours today,

and what's important to me is I have just one moment of peace with my family enjoying a delicious home-cooked meal. Is that too much to ask? I'm not answering it.
Murphy residence.

Oh, let me tell you something, you c***.

I don't need a c*** and grave family Bible.

You see? You see? What'd I say? Every time!

I am eating dinner with my family, young man.

I don't need a $25 Bible to teach me about God.

I almost bled out in Korea, all right?

I have met God! What did you just say to me? Oh, you come down here and you say that to me like a man. I swear to God, I'll pull your tongue out to your neck.
Why do they have to put the things on the wall? And at that point, he's put down the phone so hard that he tears the phone from the wall. Yeah.
That's a really funny scene.

Did you write that scene? I wrote it with a bunch of people. There was 10 writers on the show.
Mike Price was the showrunner, the captain of the ship. So Frank Murphy was, it was sort of an amalgam of everybody's parent, like dad or whatever in that period.
And I would say in a lot of ways that Frank Murphy was a little more me than my dad in that he had an element that I wish my dad had, which was the ability to apologize. It's more the funnier side of anger it's also uh you know he really shows his love and affection for susan on the show the way i wished i had seen that in my house and in other houses like um you know and it's something that i try to um make sure that my kids see that they know how much I love my wife and how beautiful I think she is and how amazing I think she is and it's something that you know I feel like I've really advanced the ball so to, with my kids because they're really happy.
They're really happy kids and they know that they're loved. This is what I've finally gotten to with all my demons is I can't fix it.
All right, it happened. There's nothing I can do about it to make it not have happened.
but what I can't fix it. All right, it happened.
There's nothing I can do about it to make it not have happened. But what I can do is, like, I just look at all of that stuff.
My job is that that stuff dies with me. It doesn't get passed on.
It must be great to see yourself through their eyes. So they probably have a different picture of you than you think other people have.
They don't have this vision of you as like the angry guy on stage. Yeah, but Terry, do I really do anything to help you not see me that way? I mean, I literally start the thing going, you know, it's only a part of me.
And then two seconds later, I'm flipping out about this stupid thing. I mean, that's literally, like, what you literally saw in this interview is a day of being me.
It's like me starting the day, I'm not going to flip out. I am going to be this happy da-da-da-da.
And then before 11 a.m., flipping out. And then I'm, ah, sorry about that.
And then the other person's a little upset with me. And then by three in the afternoon, some of the, I guess he's all right.
I think I'll sign up for another day with it. This is basically, I can't, this is just where I am right now.
And I'm trying to make it to 12 noon without flipping out or whatever. I just sort of baby step my ways through this.
But being a dad's the greatest job I've ever had. And I just love encouraging them.
I love exposing them to new things and then just seeing what they gravitate towards and then just supporting that. And I don't know, just I'm building them up to be strong people is what I'm trying to do.
And the way that that was done when I was a kid was you ripped them down to toughen them up. So, you know, it was that that boy named Sue mentality.
You know, that Johnny Cash song is, yeah, the dad wanted his kid to be tough. So he gave him a girl's name.
So he get beat up at school. I mean, that right there.
So you're a father of two and one of your series that I think you co-created Old Dads, right? It was a movie. I co-wrote it with Ben Tler, and we actually just co-wrote something else that we're going to be shooting later on this year.
Well, one of the things in Old Dads is that the older fathers, which includes you, don't relate to some of the younger parents and how they're parenting their kids. Did you find that with yourself, you know, being a father? That's what happened.
I went to the school and it was, it started off with little things. And it was like, oh, hey, yeah, look at you.
You guys are on the jungle gym. And it's like, it's called the structure.
And then I got all nervous. Like, oh my God, jungle monkeys.
Did I just say something racist? Is that why you can't say that anymore? Like, I don't know what it was. I don't know why it's called the structure.
I have no idea.

Right.

But it was like things like that.

And then, you know, we were going around, you know, looking at schools and everything.

And they, you know, they had these ones.

They were like, this is a child led program.

Like we let the children.

So we go out. There's all these dirty kids like just running around.
It was chaos. It was like, is this Lord of the Flies preschool? Like, what are we doing here? What are we doing here? So it's kind of like, you know, F is for family where it's like, it was this amalgam of like a lot of people in Hollywood are older dads because you know this business is so hard trying to figure out how to get a footing and actually get a steady job you tend to have children later and then me I also I just never felt I was like ready I had this arrested development that I couldn't get through and um one of my biggest spheres, you know, when I was a younger comic and I looked at older comics who never got married and never had kids and they were still doing shows and then hanging out afterwards trying to pick up, you know, chicks at the end of it.
And it was just, I was like, oh, my God. I don't want to be that guy i don't want to be that guy i like i wanted to get married at 26 and have like five six kids like that's how i but i i didn't know how to do it so um you know what i'd like to do um and have me stop talking you do a podcast where you talk like an hour straight.
I know I do. Or more, often more.

Your mind probably is always on overdrive. No, that comes from a couple of things.
One thing is I got into this business because I didn't want to work, which is hilarious because doing these projects and stuff is a lot of work. but uh and then i didn't have any guests because I just knew it was going to add this complication.

Oh, is that today? Oh, space. Can we do it tomorrow? Or, you know, I'm stuck on the 405.
I just knew it was going to be that. I didn't want to deal with that.
And then also I have a certain level of social anxiety because of the stuff that I went through that I am really comfortable being alone. And somebody, a good friend of mine, she posted this thing on Instagram that said hyper-independence is a trauma response as far as like, you know, I'll just do everything myself or whatever.
And my dad does that. Like if he wants an addition on this house, he does it himself and he's a dentist.
It's hilarious. Right.
And I was doing that. And I think in a way, like doing a podcast by myself is sort of the fallout of that.
And it's a way for me to communicate with people. And I can talk to a whole bunch of people, but they can't get to me or hurt me.
I don't know that this it's it's not the main thing, but it's in the gumbo of that. And I've learned all of these things post doing mushrooms.

Oh, really? Well, those are really interesting insights and you got them from doing mushrooms?

Oh, yeah. I mean, I would say therapy is the treadmill of getting towards but mushrooms is this cold bucket of water that just is like, oh, my God.
Yeah, I just I started tripping and it was goofy and I was laughing. I was like, wow, this is wild.
And then all of a sudden, like this this feeling came over me and I couldn't really figure out what it was. How would I just, it was this profound sense of loneliness by profound.
I mean, there wasn't a beginning and an end. There wasn't a top and a bottom.
And then I just asked the, I think I asked the question, which really is a cool thing to do when you're on mushrooms to kind of say, what are you trying to tell me? And then like, it's weird. Like the answer just sort of comes.
And the answer was basically, this is how you felt growing up. And that just like blew my mind because I thought I didn't care because that's what I always said.
That was my sort of catchphrase. I don't care.
I don't care. That's how I dealt with it.
And how I connected with people is I made them laugh. And then I became a stand-up comedian because I was going to become a comedian.
And then all these strangers were going to love me. And then the pain was going to end.
And then I was going to be totally fixed. Well, that didn't work.
So this let me know that it did bother me and that I was hurt and it did affect me. And it was the weirdest thing like for like a week after I was who I would have been if all of this stuff didn't happen to me.
It was like this honeymoon phase, this euphoria. It made me want to become a better person.

It made me want to fix my life.

So seven days of that.

Oh my God, I'm not angry anymore.

I felt this lightness in my chest.

But then after seven days,

the reality that what happened to me still happened to me

and that I could have been this guy. But now I am who I am, who I don't like.
I don't like how I am. And the anger came back tenfold.
And then I had to work through that. But that was only like a three week thing because I kind of saw who I could be.
I feel a responsibility to say here that it's recommended that if you do mushrooms, you do it in a therapeutic setting.

So if things do go bad, you have somebody to guide you through it because you really don't know what to expect.

You might want help.

You know what, Terry?

You're a good person.

You saw me leading people astray.

And look at you.

You just said in a very eloquent way, don't do what this

idiot just did. So I'm tempted to do something and I don't know whether I should do it or not.
Do it. Okay.
You'll probably be sorry you said that. I don't care.
Okay. So here's what I'd like to do.
There's a bit that you do, and I found myself both laughing and stopping laughing and then figuring out, like, I'm not sure which way to take this. And so what I'd like to do is— That's amazing.
I can't tell you how happy that makes me feel to know that that's how you felt. Good.
So let's play it, and then we can talk about it, if that's okay with you. Okay.

Okay, great.

So this is a part, you've just talked about men and a lot of men's flaws.

Then you say, you know, you're going to talk about women.

Every time I think feminism has kind of like died off, you know?

You know like a band you can't stand, and they haven't put out an album in a few years.

You're like, oh, good.

Did they quit?

Did they break up? And all of a sudden, they come out with some more s***. You're like, ah, what is it now? I'm just f***ing with you.
Feminism doesn't bug me, you know. It doesn't bother me.
I'm not afraid of it or anything like that, you know, for the simple fact that I know it's going to fail, you know? And I take comfort in that. I do.
I'm not rooting for it because I know it doesn't like me. Yeah.
Do you know why I think it's not going to survive? Why it's not going to be successful anyways? Because they still need men's help to make it happen. I don't understand it.
I don't understand why women just can't work with each other. But they keep coming to us like, you more men need to care about this issue.
Where are the men to stand up and say something? Why do I have to say something? This is your problem. Why are you always dragging us into this? Okay, so that's my guest, Bill Burr.
Okay, so here's what I want to talk with you about. I want to talk to you about perspective, because when I listen to that, I think that is really funny if you're coming from the perspective of, of course, men have to be involved because the whole point of feminism is becoming equal and getting men who perceive women as less than or as incompetent or stupid or, you know, any of the patronizing things or insulting things, misogynist things that men may think, men have to change in order for feminism to succeed, in order for women to get the equality.
How come men didn't have to change for them to succeed? Because women were already subservient. Men already controlled everything.
It's historically been that way. But why is that? let me finish my point okay so um so i think it's really funny if your perspective is like this is funny because obviously men have to change in order for feminism to succeed but it's not so funny to me if your perspective is what do they want from us men why don't they? This is their issue.
Why don't they just leave us alone? And that to me isn't funny because that would mean like you don't get it. You don't get that men who still think that women are lesser than or secondary or not enough, you know, not smart enough, not capable enough, not deserving of equality.
If you're coming from that perspective, it's not funny.

In what world would I be coming from that perspective?

I'm just going to finish my sentence. If you're coming from that perspective,

it's not funny because it means you're clueless that you don't get it, in which case it's not

so funny. But if you do get it, it's really funny because you're coming from the perspective

of getting it and mocking the men who don't. So your turn.
All right. Okay.
It's funny to me because I just thought it was hilarious that when that Me Too thing came out, right, all of these guys all of a sudden were walking around and they had on these male feminist buttons. Right? And that was absolutely hysterical to me.
And it was hysterical to me that women didn't call out the BS of that. Because it's like, where was that button before this happened? You had your whole life to wear that button.
And you didn't wear it until guys were getting thrown off the bridge of their career. Then all of a sudden, I'm a male feminist.
Females first. And you fell for it.
I mean, that's a red flag. Let's just take it out of men and women.
I remember when I first got a manager and an agent and I thought, oh boy, oh boy, now I don't have to make the calls. Someone's going to be making calls for me.
It's like, no, no one's going to care about what you want more than you. So you got to empower yourself to do this.
It's like, where is your responsibility in supporting other women? Or like you hear like in Hollywood, we need more movies with women in them. It's like, well, go write one.
That's what they're doing. Go write one.
They weren't given the chance to do it before. That's not true.
The doors were closed. It's just not true.
It's pretty true. It's not true.
It's not true. Do you think the door was open for a bald redheaded ginger to come in at 50 something years old to go? Do you think Hollywood was waiting for that? Do you think they I just walked out? They're like, oh, you're a guy.
What are your dreams? Send us a list and we're going to make it happen. And women have gone through exactly the same thing if they're not beautiful or young enough.
Exactly. So like, okay, so I went through it too in my own way.
But that's the thing. When I was growing up, the only jobs for women were nurses, teachers, cashiers, secretaries.
There was very little else you

could do. Well, okay, sex worker.
Yeah. There's very little else you could do.
The doors are

basically shut. Listen, I don't have a problem with women.
If you come with a good script,

I don't have, I'm not in the way. You know, you can view me however you want to view me,

but I know what I've done in my career as far as like who I've worked with and what I've been doing. And like at the end of the day, like the joke that I'm doing, I'm making a point.
I'm also being playful, but I'm also not going to be this person just going like, yes, you are 100% right. I need to do better.
You don't need to do anything. You just keep being you because you are a woman and you are not flawed at all.
And you are not abusive and you are not responsible at all for where you are in life. If you're not where you want to be in life, it's because of men.
I don't subscribe to that any more than I subscribe to, hey, these dumb broads need to be home making me a sandwich. I'm not that guy either.
I'm somewhere in the middle and I like to tease everybody. So if you want to listen to my act and be like, you know, this part I like, but that part I didn't.
I mean, that happens to me every night. So I don't know.
Yeah. So just getting back to that joke one more time.
It's the kind of open ended joke that you can see from either perspective. You can feel like I'm in the Terminator right now.
He just keeps coming. That's all he does.
He's not going to stop. I knew I knew you wouldn't like this, but I'm enjoying the hell out of this.
There's nothing I like better than debating. And here's something that you would be surprised is I actually do love women.
I do find you guys fascinating. But I also know in your own way, you're also as full of S as men are.
OK, our positions are different. I will tell you, you know, if you want feminism in the real world, in the job world, you should also want it in a marriage and divorce settlements.
But I don't see a lot of feminists sticking up for guys in those things. They don't want equality when it comes to that.
Beginning back to the joke. I supported him.
That's my favorite thing ever. This guy builds an empire and then the woman's like, I supported him.
I managed the house. You managed the house? What does that mean? A lot of women make more money than their husbands do.
Wait, is that true? If that's true, then what is the problem? What are you talking about? But it depends. I'm sorry.
Let's just get back to the joke. No, you didn't lie.
I had you in the corner there for a second.

No, no, you didn't.

You know what?

I'm in a good mood.

You didn't have me in the corner.

Then why did you abandon that?

You just said a lot of women make more money than guys.

So, like, what are we doing here?

Okay, because historically women didn't, but now a lot of women do because women are allowed to be lawyers.

Women are allowed to do all kinds of jobs that pay that they weren't allowed to do before, including being doctors. How's that working out now that you're in the job world? Isn't it fulfilling? It is.
I happen to like my work a lot. But anyhow.
Well, I would say this. Getting back.
You and I are very fortunate that we actually have jobs that we like because most people don't.

The toughest job in the world is going to a job you don't want to do.

The easiest thing is going to a job that you want to go to.

Totally agree.

So I tried to establish that you could see that joke from two different perspectives, one of which I found really funny and the other which I found clueless.

Do you want to leave it ambiguous like that so that bros in the audience can see it one way? It isn't ambiguous. Okay.
Oh, stop with the bros term. Everybody with their terms now.
Bros. All these guys are bros.
Isn't that the feminist word for broads? Uh-uh. No, because I'm a woman.
It doesn't work that way. This is the thing.
It the thing it's deliberately ambiguous okay okay because that's what i am because i am everything in that joke i am enlightened and i am ignorant thank you i am clueless and i am that don't say thank you like you just won something no i am i am you i see well i'm defensive then you backed me in the corner because you kept you kept at me with this. You kept punching me after the bell.
You know, you're supposed to go back to the stools and you get that overhand right in over the referee. You said you love debating.
I do. But then I always end up becoming this.
This is the guy I'm trying not to be. No, but it's interesting to me that you see yourself coming from both of those perspectives and that you have both of those perspectives.
I do. I am a man.
I absolutely love women. I find you guys fascinating.
And at the same time, I find you incredibly frustrating. And, you know, I see the beauty in what you do.
And I also see the destruction in it just because you're human beings or whatever. And I try to, you know, and I got to be honest with you.
If you watch my earlier standup, I'm like, women, women, women. That had nothing to do with women.
All of that crap that I said had nothing to do with women. It had to do with the fact that I didn't know how to get on with my life, that I wanted to get married.
I wanted to be in love. I wanted to have kids and I didn't know how to do it.
And I didn't understand what my problem was. So, and I didn't know how to fix it.
So I blamed what I wanted. So there's also that.
I don't know. I just want to say in case it's not clear, I think you're there's some jokes where i stand back and i go i'm not sure how to take that but um i think you're a great there's a lot of stuff i've done i look i go did i say that you know you know it happens i love i love your voice i love your delivery um i love your spontaneity um i'm waiting for I'm waiting for having said that.

No, no.

However.

However.

No, no.

The only however is sometimes I just don't know how to take the jokes,

and I can interpret it one of two ways.

That's the great thing about comedy.

Well, I had a great time talking with you,

and I had a great time debating with you, and I really like you. Oh.
Oh, even though we didn't line up on everything, but I liked that. Oh, I liked that we didn't.
I really enjoyed it. Thank you.
All right. Thank you so much.
I'll see you. This message comes from NPR sponsor Betterment.
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