Natasha Rothwell Checks Back Into 'The White Lotus'

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Speaker 2 This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley.
This has been quite a year so far for my guest, Natasha Rothwell. She returns to the third season of the popular HBO show The White Lotus.

Speaker 2 And just this past weekend, her Hulu series How to Die Alone, which she created and starred in, won an Independent Spirit Award for Best Ensemble Cast and a new scripted series.

Speaker 2 But that win is bittersweet because the show, which premiered last September, was canceled after just one season.

Speaker 2 Well, Rothwell's return to the White Lotus signals a deeper dive into the tension between entitlement and servitude, which has been present along with murder in every season of the show.

Speaker 2 It follows the storyline of seemingly picture-perfect travelers with various dysfunctions who go to the White Lotus Resort to escape.

Speaker 2 In the first season, Rothwell's character Belinda is a spa manager at the Hawaii location. She meets a wealthy visitor named Tanya, played by Jennifer Coolidge, and the two strike up a friendship.

Speaker 2 Belinda shares her dreams of opening up her own spa with Tanya.

Speaker 3 I do think that there's a purpose in helping even rich people, you know?

Speaker 3 Helping them to find healing, making them feel more present, more aware.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Because rich people, they're the ones that, you know.

Speaker 3 F ⁇ up the world.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, I know a lot of rich white f ⁇ up people.

Speaker 4 They could really use you.

Speaker 5 And...

Speaker 5 Have you ever thought about starting like your own business?

Speaker 5 Come on.

Speaker 3 Lucas,

Speaker 2 I would be down for funding something like that.

Speaker 2 We watch as Tanya flakes on Belinda, never funding her dream to open a spa, instead running off with another guest who goes on to con and attempt to have Coolidge's character killed.

Speaker 2 Well, in this latest season in Thailand, Belinda experiences the other side of the guest staff dynamic as a visitor, taking part in a White Lotus exchange program.

Speaker 2 Natasha Rothwell is an award-winning actor, writer, and series creator. Her early start in comedy included a stint as a writer on Saturday Night Live during the 2014-15 season.

Speaker 2 She also starred in HBO's Insecure as Issa's hilarious and sexually liberated friend Kelly. She also served as a writer and supervising producer on the show.
Natasha Rothwell, welcome to Fresh Air.

Speaker 3 Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 First, let's talk a little bit about the White Lotus because fans of the White Lotus were very happy to see you return, intrigued because we know that your return means something pretty big.

Speaker 2 And this season, she's at the Thailand Resort. So she's there to relax and, as I said, learn a few new things to bring back to the resort in Maui.

Speaker 2 Well, in the clip I'm about to play, your character Belinda shares what she's been through to a wellness expert assigned to train her, Pon Chai, played by Dom Hetrichal. Let's listen.

Speaker 5 So,

Speaker 5 you like Thailand?

Speaker 3 Very much.

Speaker 5 I am happy.

Speaker 3 You know, before I got here, I was

Speaker 5 depressed.

Speaker 3 My friend

Speaker 3 was my boss, actually. He

Speaker 3 died in this freak accident at work.

Speaker 3 And this woman, this rich woman, she was supposed to help me open up my own spa, you know, so I could be my own boss.

Speaker 3 Something I've always wanted to do.

Speaker 3 And of course, she flakes,

Speaker 3 runs off with some guy she just met.

Speaker 2 That was my guest today, Natasha Rothwell, in the latest season of The White Lotus. I have to say, the music is always like the other character in the room, isn't it?

Speaker 2 It's just what Mike White does with music.

Speaker 3 It's so special. It really is.

Speaker 2 Well, Belinda is such a fascinating character. I'm so interested to see how this season pays off and seeing what becomes of her because she has this veneer of sweetness that...

Speaker 2 kind of hides this sense of dejection and growing resentment that I assume that she feels by being like stiff by Tanya, you know, how was it to return to her character?

Speaker 3 I think in the time that audiences saw her before,

Speaker 3 as they just heard, you know, she's experienced some depression.

Speaker 3 And I think that happens naturally when you open yourself up vulnerably about your dreams to someone, especially if that someone is a stranger. You're taking kind of a big swing.

Speaker 3 And I think she felt really, you know, hurt and dejected after that rejection from Tanya. But I do think we find her on the precipice of change.

Speaker 3 You know, she's taking a pretty big swing, going to a country she's never been to before. She's going there by herself at first until her son can join her.

Speaker 3 And I think when someone does something like that, it speaks to their optimism. And I think that it's really fun to meet someone when they're about to try again.

Speaker 2 I think I heard you say that Belinda kind of represents the person you used to be.

Speaker 3 Yeah, no, I think, you know, season one, she, you know, swallowed a lot of blood, you know, and didn't say what was on her mind and, you know,

Speaker 3 was very

Speaker 3 obliging. And I think that

Speaker 3 that's partly because she's working in a place where she can't really articulate her POV and her needs and advocate for them because she's there to serve.

Speaker 3 But I do think there's... parts of that that she could have fought against.
And I think when we see her now, she's sort of straddling that line of, you know, being an employee and the guest.

Speaker 3 And, you know, when she's leaning on that foot that's in the guest lane, you know, she's allowing herself to speak up and advocate for her needs a little bit more, which I think it's always cool to see someone audition sort of that kind of

Speaker 3 version of themselves. And I think that's vacationing 101, right?

Speaker 2 You go and you're like, who am I going to be here? You know,

Speaker 3 and so I think she does that a bit as well.

Speaker 2 This season is in Thailand, but you know, something that

Speaker 2 I found so interesting is Mike White, who is the writer, the creator of The White Lotus,

Speaker 2 you know, season one, he had no idea what he had on his hands. You're just making this cool thing, and you don't know how the public will receive it.
I mean, it is such a hit now.

Speaker 2 How different was it for you on the set for this one versus the first season?

Speaker 3 Yeah. Mike jokingly said that season one was basically a Zoom TV show

Speaker 3 comparatively.

Speaker 3 You know we were you know we we had one location we weren't permitted to leave because of the covet protocols you know we were shooting you were shooting in hawaii during covet yeah pre-vaccination so it was probably

Speaker 3 we were one of the first if not the first you know production back and um

Speaker 3 there was a lot of fear you know and fear is a really tough place to make anything creative. But Mike somehow created this environment that made us feel safe.
And

Speaker 3 yeah, we were sold on a limited series. It was one and done.
And, you know, I watched season two with everyone from home, excited. And like, there was really no

Speaker 3 expectation that I would come back. And I didn't have it.
I didn't, you know, I'm not the type of, you know, creator or actor that fights for it because I have deference to the pen for sure.

Speaker 3 And so I watched and was excited. And then when Mike asked me to be a part of season three,

Speaker 3 I was gagged, you know, because it's bigger.

Speaker 3 But I think for me, what grounded me in the bigness of what the show has become are the people and you know showing up on set i'm seeing you know the same hair and makeup team i'm seeing the same dp the same ad and you know it was just felt like returning home i was like oh yeah like the heart and soul of the show is the same it's the perception that's increased so it felt very comforting to land in thailand and remember that it's it is just at the end of the day a group of people just trying to make some art you know how long did you guys spend in Thailand to shoot?

Speaker 3 It varied per actor. I was there for about five months.
Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 3 It was not a short trip.

Speaker 2 There is a theme in the show of mindfulness, and there are lots of references to Buddhism.

Speaker 2 And really, for these characters, the visitors of this resort, they're coming to grips with the ugliness of who they are and their individual ways.

Speaker 2 Did you have a spiritual experience while you were in Thailand or was it work, work, work?

Speaker 3 No, I think that like you can't help but have a spiritual experience there. It's such a special place.
You know, I learned while I was there, Thailand has never been colonized.

Speaker 3 And so it's a really interesting juxtaposition to being from the States where we're constantly in this trauma response from our history. And to go to a place that doesn't have that, it brings out,

Speaker 3 I mean, at some level, a certain kind of levity of just being alive. And

Speaker 2 can you describe or explain, like, give an example of what you mean by that? Like, the differences?

Speaker 3 I mean, they call it the land of smiles. You meet people, there's no preconceived notions of who you are, where you're from.

Speaker 3 And I think, you know, walking around the world as a black woman, there's all these suppositions about who I am and where I'm from and what I believe in. And

Speaker 3 they wait for you to declare who you are, what you are about. And

Speaker 3 even in

Speaker 3 the the language, you know, I found so interesting.

Speaker 3 When I say swadi ka, the K is the feminine sort of identifier.

Speaker 3 And it's given, not received. So even the power to identify, when you say hello to someone, I say the ka to let you know how to receive them.

Speaker 2 How to, right.

Speaker 3 Oh, that's so interesting. Even so, it's not the other outside in sort of descriptor saying what you are.
It's not the world telling you what you are. You're declaring it when you say hello.

Speaker 3 So it's small things like that. And I think that there's a warmth and a genuine, you know, spirit of acceptance there that just is pervasive.

Speaker 2 There is a scene in the show. It's where you're waiting for dinner and you see another black guest there.

Speaker 2 That was written into the show because you've mentioned it to Mike White, right?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I'd pitched it to him.

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 we're close and, you know, I tell him about my travels and the like. And,

Speaker 3 you know, with Belinda being in a foreign country, I was just, you know, reiterating the importance of Black travel and how once when I was traveling to Ireland, I was at some castle on the top of some misty hill.

Speaker 3 I can't remember. But what I do remember is when I was there, I was the only black person I could see, but this black family.

Speaker 3 a mother, father, and two kids that were like around 12 or 11, sort of walk up the hill and break through the mist.

Speaker 3 And I just looked at them and they looked at me and we just kind of walked towards each other and hugged.

Speaker 3 And I was explaining to Mike, I was just like, when you see yourself reflected in a space that you,

Speaker 3 I mean, it just lets you know you belong there, you know? I think when Belinda in that moment sees this couple is just there, she sees that.

Speaker 3 And it's this, I think, internal affirmation that she can lean back and enjoy her wine in this moment. She doesn't have to be in this servile position as the default.

Speaker 3 She can experience life from that perspective as well.

Speaker 2 There are so many themes that this series

Speaker 2 unpacks through these individual characters and their journeys. Is there any one in particular that like

Speaker 2 really lights you up or like you really are thinking deeply about as you're watching the series? Because it's actually quite deep when you start to think about these issues of servitude and

Speaker 2 white privilege and wealth and access and all of that?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think that is such a great question because I think that when you're talking about servitude specifically and Belinda being in a servile position but stepping out of that this season, I think it highlights code switching.

Speaker 3 It highlights sort of the

Speaker 3 passport you'd need to sort of move between those two spaces.

Speaker 3 I think she's often seen as sort of like this moral compass, moral center, which I think flirts with the idea of sort of the magical Negro that, you know, doesn't have that any problem.

Speaker 3 She's there to like make sense of white mess.

Speaker 3 Belinda serves as

Speaker 3 such an interesting ruler to measure the other characters against.

Speaker 2 Natasha, it took you eight years to get this show made. And

Speaker 2 after it was announced that it was canceled, you said like this is an undeniable hit. This is like a critical, creative, and award-winning show.
Did you feel like executives gave up on it too soon?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 I was pretty shocked. The landscape of Hollywood has been interesting, I think, in a post-strike world, but I think

Speaker 3 even zooming farther out, I think television led by black stars and shows that are centering marginalized voices aren't getting the support and placement that they need. I think it's unfortunate that

Speaker 3 How to Die Alone

Speaker 3 didn't meet the metric that

Speaker 3 the studio was using to make their decision.

Speaker 3 But I'm so proud of what I've created. And I think for me, it just tells me that

Speaker 3 I'm just going to continue to fight harder.

Speaker 2 This was such an original show. It was also autobiographical

Speaker 3 in a bit.

Speaker 2 In a bit, like it's not literal, but I mean, the main character, Mel, is described as I mentioned, a broke, fat, black woman who has given up on herself until she almost dies in like the saddest way.

Speaker 2 This cheap bookshelf falls on her in her apartment, and that's when she has this awakening. Like, I, you know, what am I doing in life? Like, something similar happened to you.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 You know, I've been fat and black my whole life, but outside of those two,

Speaker 3 no, I was, uh,

Speaker 3 I had like this toothache and I'm very famously allergic to

Speaker 3 acetametophen and

Speaker 3 other NSAIDs at varying degrees. And

Speaker 3 I took one because it was just, I had, I had this dental work and it's been so long. And I was like, how bad can it be? I'm sure I'm over it by now.
And so I think

Speaker 3 my, my pain took over common sense and I took some INSAIDs and just started swelling up like hitch and

Speaker 3 drove myself to the urgent care

Speaker 3 because I was in ambulances as an expensive thing in the States. And, you know, they shot me with an EpiPen and reminded me not to take NSAIDs.
And I was like, Yeah, I know.

Speaker 3 But I just remember being in that waiting room and being even seen in the back. They were just like, you know, you have to wait

Speaker 3 for this medicine to take effect. Who can take you home? And I didn't have anyone.
And I was just like, this ain't, this ain't, this ain't it.

Speaker 3 So it's little moments like that. You know, I remember there's another moment that where

Speaker 3 in the show, the character of Mel goes toe-to-toe with some umlat furniture, our homage to perhaps IKEA.

Speaker 3 And I had a similar situation where I had a shelf bonk me in the head.

Speaker 3 I didn't lose consciousness or anything like that, but it was just like I was fighting with the loneliness, you know, and, you know, the pride I think I had with asking for help at the time.

Speaker 3 And so I wanted to write a character who had this wake-up call and wasn't fixed immediately. I think so often we see, you know,

Speaker 3 fat girl gets bonked on the head. She wakes up and realizes, you know, she needs a man to fix her problems.
And then she needs to go to the gym and all is right. And for me,

Speaker 3 body neutrality is where I've arrived.

Speaker 3 And like, I didn't want to, you know, promote, you know, the never-ending wheel of like the, you know, wellness industrial complex of like, let's just throw a workout at her and a man and it'll be solved.

Speaker 3 It's much deeper.

Speaker 2 Tell me about your relationship with the word fet because, you know, it's in all of the descriptions of this show. And

Speaker 3 you wrote it. Yeah.
I went into many meetings, many Zooms over that word because, you know, folks were scared of it.

Speaker 3 And my journey with the word, you know, when I was younger, I used to cry when I was called it.

Speaker 3 And then, you know, cut to now,

Speaker 3 I wanted that word to no longer be pejorative.

Speaker 3 It's just a fact. It doesn't has, it has no indication of my heart, my intellect, my creativity,

Speaker 3 my business acumen, my, you know,

Speaker 3 my kindness.

Speaker 3 Like, so to, to take back that word and put it in the description, and it's so often I've been in interviews where they won't say that part of the description because they feel weird about it.

Speaker 3 It lets me know how comfortable someone is with me being in their space. And

Speaker 3 I had a meeting before we start production, which is, you know, very common that the showrunners will talk to all of the staff and the crew on this giant big call. You know, we're all on Zoom.

Speaker 3 And I addressed everyone on the call sheet. I said, the word fat is not pejorative.
So when you are on set and you're using this word in a pejorative way, no, that is not accepted.

Speaker 3 You know, if you eat a big lunch and you say, oh, I feel fat, right? Which we're all want to do. But like, that is something that tells me you feel uncomfortable with the idea that you are not.

Speaker 3 a straight size or you are not small and you're talking to or around or in earshot of someone who is plus size it's telling them consciously or subconsciously that you are disgusted with them so if you want to use it in a positive light go ahead call somebody a fatty baddie.

Speaker 3 Keep it pushing. But we are not going to create a space where anyone is going to be made to feel discomfort based off of that word.

Speaker 2 Our guest today is Natasha Rothwell, one of the season three stars of the White Lotus on HBO. We'll be right back after a short break.
I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air.

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Speaker 2 You auditioned for SNL.

Speaker 2 You ended up being a writer. Tell me a little bit about that audition and that time period.
Because this is, if I'm correct, this is like the time period when they were looking for a black woman.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.
They had their mission pretty clear.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but I was in New York at the time and had been working at this high school as a theater teacher for about four years.

Speaker 3 I landed in New York

Speaker 3 around 2009.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 at this point, I had, you know, left my job teaching and was just like pushing all the chips in on my career. Had so many gig jobs.

Speaker 2 You were teaching theater to what? What age group?

Speaker 3 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th.

Speaker 2 Okay, so yeah. So, so high schoolers, was there ever a moment in those four years where you were thinking, like, maybe this is my life, or did you always know it's a temporary thing?

Speaker 3 I was working at, you know, community centers down in, you know, Flatbush. And at the same time, I started teaching at Upright Citizens Brigade.
And so

Speaker 3 I became really

Speaker 3 enmeshed in the education program at UCB, this time with adults and improv. And they had way more understanding with this lifestyle of needing to leave to go do an audition.

Speaker 3 And one of those auditions was SNL. And I got word that, you know, they were doing

Speaker 3 these special secret showcases with black ladies because, you know, very famously, Keenan and Jay Farrow

Speaker 3 didn't want to wear a drag anymore.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I

Speaker 3 got a place on this showcase and, yeah, just shot my shot. And, you know, in terms of being a shot, what was your audition?

Speaker 2 Do you remember?

Speaker 3 It was, I had a lot of different things that I auditioned with. I had

Speaker 3 a drunk Maya Angelou impression.

Speaker 3 I had.

Speaker 2 Why is that making me laugh? Just even thinking about it.

Speaker 3 It's just fun. It's just fun.

Speaker 3 And then I did an impression of Keenan, which was just making looks with my eyes. There was no dialogue.
And after that, I did get a call back. And that meant we auditioned at Studio 8H.

Speaker 3 So we went down to 30 Rock.

Speaker 3 And of those who made the second round of auditions, you would go into the famous Studio 8H and in the audience is Lorne Michaels.

Speaker 3 And then it's populated by, you know, past and present cast members, writers, executives. And it's famously a very, very cold room.
And everyone tells you no one's going to laugh.

Speaker 3 It's going to be really quiet. And,

Speaker 3 you know, I was auditioning alongside, you know, Sashir and Leslie Jones and all of these major, major comedians. And I was terrified.
I was absolutely terrified.

Speaker 3 But it was, again, one of those things where I was just like, just go hard or go home. And I did get laughs during mine, which gave me some feel goods.

Speaker 3 And it was the Keenan impression because he didn't know that.

Speaker 3 He was in the room, and he told me once I finally was in the writer's room, he was like, you were killing me because I was just basically pulling face, which is just like, you know, something he's known for.

Speaker 3 And to do it in front of him got the room to laugh.

Speaker 2 Is there something you wrote that you are most proud of on the show?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 I...

Speaker 3 worked with Taraji P. Henson on her monologue, which I'm so excited.

Speaker 2 I actually have a clip of this. So Taraji P.
Henson hosted the show in 2015. And at the time, she was starring in the Fox show Empire as Cookie Lions.

Speaker 2 The name of the monologue is I Made It. Let's listen to a little bit.

Speaker 2 This is so nice.

Speaker 3 Oh my god, being on Saturday Night Live really means so much to me because it proves that after 20 years in show business, white people finally know who I am.

Speaker 3 Look, I've been around a while, but a lot of you are just getting to know me as Cookie on Empire.

Speaker 3 Thank you. No, no, no, real talk.

Speaker 3 This role changed my life. I mean, I spent so many years hustling in this business, and now I'm here.

Speaker 3 So, I guess you could say I made it. Hallelujah.

Speaker 3 Don't worry about where you are.

Speaker 3 Be grateful that you've come this far.

Speaker 3 You may not always come in first.

Speaker 3 Just remember that it could be worse.

Speaker 3 I could have been an extra on the Lion King.

Speaker 3 Could be wearing some giant two canned wings.

Speaker 3 Could be trying to make some bachelor holler.

Speaker 3 Could be twerking on a pole for a dollar.

Speaker 3 I could've been a hip-hop video hoe.

Speaker 3 Did it once or twice, but now no more.

Speaker 3 None of that extra matter now. Cause I made it.
Oh, yes, it made it.

Speaker 3 Used to tip five, but now it's 30%.

Speaker 3 Cause it made it. Oh, yes, I made it.

Speaker 3 Almost on my arms just to pay the rent.

Speaker 2 Could have passed out.

Speaker 2 That was Taraji P. Henson in 2015 in her opening monologue on SNL, written by my guest today.

Speaker 2 I love that. Like,

Speaker 2 it's part monologue, it's part song. Did you write the song?

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 like, it's a team effort there for sure.

Speaker 3 So I have not heard that since. It's so early.

Speaker 3 I was like, oh, wow, I do remember. No, it was a team effort and the music was inspired.
You know, I grew up in the church and John P.

Speaker 3 Key, you know, has some really early 90s, late 80s jams that would be like, you would be cooking. And so I just remember working with the music director and I was like, we got to hit these.

Speaker 3 It has to have that sauce.

Speaker 2 It's also so real, you know, like all the things that she listed, it goes on to say like all these other things that, oh, these things you take for granted that

Speaker 2 show that I made it.

Speaker 3 She made it.

Speaker 3 And I felt like she was singing for me for sure because there I was like writing for this iconic show that I just, I had no, truly no aspirations to be on because I didn't see myself on the show.

Speaker 3 You know what I mean? Like I didn't see myself.

Speaker 2 So it was never a dream of yours, even not seeing yourself.

Speaker 3 No, I mean, Ellen Clayhorn, who was in my show, How to Die Alone, I just remember her in early sketches. And there was this whole period of time where it was just black men in drag.

Speaker 3 And I didn't see myself as being on screen there. And I didn't think it would be an option.
So I was just like, well, I know I'm going to make it, but I don't know if it's going to be by way of SNL.

Speaker 3 And so when I was there, you know, working on the sketch and it was just, yeah, it was for both of us. I was just like, well, this is both of us are here.
And we didn't think we would be.

Speaker 3 So it was pretty cool.

Speaker 2 Pretty soon after you started working on Insecure, like, was that whiplash? Was it a lot different? Was it similar?

Speaker 3 It was very different. You know, you know, night and day because once you have SNL.
on your resume, it's like a stamp and a passport.

Speaker 3 And a lot of people want you to, you know, to be a part of their shows.

Speaker 3 And Amy Gravitt, who's still a wonderful friend and still an amazing executive at HBO, was in New York and wanted to meet with me for this show from the woman who created Awkward Black Girl.

Speaker 3 And I was like, I love that show. So yeah, I'll meet with her.
What's this show about? And she's like, you know, we shot a pilot, but we're opening up a writer's room for Insecure. And

Speaker 3 I was like, absolutely. I would want to meet because I just loved Awkward Black Girl so much.
And you were, I am an Awkward Black Girl.

Speaker 2 That's what you were saying to yourself.

Speaker 3 I was shouting it from the rooftops.

Speaker 3 And so when I would see her show on YouTube, I didn't know it had the, you know, was heading to the, you know, to HBO to be on a bigger screen and jumped right into that and moved coasts and everything.

Speaker 2 So you were a writer on the show,

Speaker 2 but can you quickly tell the story of then how you came to be Kelly?

Speaker 2 Because there was a moment with everyone where it became apparent that you are Kelly.

Speaker 3 I had zero aspirations to try to jockey to be on the screen. I was just like, I just want to be the best writer possible.
And about a month into the writer's room,

Speaker 3 Ben Dugan, who was one of the writers on the show, had pitched, you know, growing Issa's friendship circle just for writing. And so that we could have, you know, diversified stories.

Speaker 3 And that's where, you know, the characters of Tiffany and Kelly came along. And as a room, we're pitching their characteristics and things like that.
And, you know, wrote a few scripts with her in it.

Speaker 3 And a part of Issa's process is to to read all the scripts aloud,

Speaker 3 the writers reading the scripts aloud in the writer's room, just so we can hear it and making sure that

Speaker 3 it sings. And I was always being cast as Kelly because she would cast us in the writer's room.
And

Speaker 3 I'm never not myself, and I obviously know I have the ability to like sell this character. And I thought I was selling it for its existence.
You know, I was like not trying to sell myself for it.

Speaker 3 I was just like, I love this character so much. I want her to live.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I just remember as we have these scripts generated and the casting process started, Issa and Prentice called me in their office and they're just like, you know you, Kelly, right?

Speaker 3 And I like burst into tears because I didn't see it coming. I didn't see it coming.

Speaker 2 I want to actually play a clip to remind folks of Kelly and who she was. In this scene, she is talking about her work as an accountant.
Let's listen.

Speaker 8 That's why I make sure my white clients get less on their tax returns.

Speaker 8 Reparations. That's what that is.
I feel like Robin Hood. You know what I mean? The facts.
It's just facts. I don't care if I get in trouble.
I'm doing it. That's what I marched for.

Speaker 8 I took off work so I could walk down the street and do to white people finally.

Speaker 8 Real talk. Don't tell nobody because I'm going to go to full jail.

Speaker 8 Like, you ever seen Lock Up Abroad?

Speaker 3 They're going to lock abroad up.

Speaker 2 That's my guess, Natasha Rothwell at HBO's Insecure.

Speaker 3 I'm cracking up because that was definitely like a huge improvised moment.

Speaker 3 So that wasn't written.

Speaker 3 Some of it, I think it started off, but then I go on this tangent about wanting to

Speaker 3 make white people pay more in their taxes. And we were just going back and forth.
And then I'm sure it ended with us, with her breaking or one of us breaking.

Speaker 2 Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is actress, writer, and series creator Natasha Rothwell.
We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is Fresh Air.

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only.

Speaker 2 Natasha, you mentioned how you grew up with parents who were in the military. Did you move around a lot?

Speaker 3 I did. My dad was in the Air Force.

Speaker 3 And yeah, I was born in Wichita, Kansas, and I was there for maybe the first year of my life, year and a half, maybe. So I have really no memories of that.

Speaker 3 My older sister was born in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Speaker 3 My brother was born in New Jersey. We lived in Florida, Illinois, Turkey, at the Incerlik Air Force Base there.

Speaker 3 Maryland. Yeah, and then my dad was stationed at the Pentagon, and then he retired as a commander at Fort Dix.
And so it was a lot of moving around.

Speaker 3 It's all I knew. So there's no kind of like, you know, I didn't lament my upbringing.
I was just like curious of people who didn't live like that. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Your parents, they've been married over 40 years.

Speaker 3 They were up 47 years yesterday.

Speaker 2 Wow. You know, I mean, that's aspirational.

Speaker 3 It's goals.

Speaker 2 It's goals.

Speaker 3 Has it ever felt like oppressive? Yeah. Yes.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. I mean, they have this unbelievable love story.
And, you know, I wrote a show about how to die alone.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 I definitely,

Speaker 3 yeah, I would be like, okay, you know, they set a pretty high bar. But I'm, you know, as much as I resented it, I think, especially in my early 20s where I was just sort of tapping my watch,

Speaker 3 I'm so grateful for them as an example because they're just,

Speaker 3 they ride so hard for each other and it gives me something to look forward to myself.

Speaker 2 I've heard you describe yourself as neurospicy. What does that mean?

Speaker 3 Well, now I know it means that I have pretty severe ADHD. I'm late diagnosed.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 yeah, I've always known that I see the world a little bit differently. I've had previous therapists suggest that I might have ADHD,

Speaker 3 but I didn't really pursue that or identify as that. I just was just like, oh yeah, my brain works a little bit different.

Speaker 3 And last year, actually, I got an official diagnosis and

Speaker 3 it was heartbreaking a little bit. I think I was like resisting the diagnosis because it meant

Speaker 3 Like when I looked at my life in hindsight, there are all these moments of empathy I have for that girl girl that was struggling who had no idea why.

Speaker 3 And I just took it as a moral failure, you know, coming from the church. I was like, oh yeah, I need to pray this inability to sit still out.

Speaker 3 And I need to pray this lack of focus and attention out, you know. And now knowing that those were, my brain's just wired differently.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it was kind of a painful diagnosis in that respect, but then so freeing because it was just like, oh, I don't have to mask the fact that like, you know, I have no short-term memory.

Speaker 3 Like it's so terrible. And I don't have to feel bad about it, but I can announce it, be like, hey, I have really severe ADHD.
So if you say something to me, I might have to write it down.

Speaker 3 You're going to have to tell me more than once. Or, you know.

Speaker 2 Part of you kind of like being in denial about it, was it also because

Speaker 2 so many of like the descriptors are not like the things we know ADHD to be.

Speaker 3 Correct. I didn't know the full sort of scope of what someone with ADHD presents as, you know, like there's so, it's so varied, it's so deep, it's so complex.

Speaker 3 And especially for black women, we are so high functioning that we can mask so many of the things that are markers for ADHD because we have trained ourselves to show up in a way that's acceptable.

Speaker 3 And so my whole life has been acceptability politics.

Speaker 3 So I have known how to show up and pretend I hear you and, you know, pretend to be focused and to correct my behaviors and, you know, laugh off this mistake.

Speaker 3 And there's a whole sort of circus that I think I was able to put down once I realized I had the diagnosis. And

Speaker 3 every day I'm still learning more where I'm just like, and I'm forever inquisitive about myself, probably to the point that I shouldn't be.

Speaker 3 My therapist is just like, you don't have to have an explanation for everything.

Speaker 3 Some things just are. Some things just are.

Speaker 3 But I love being in this part of my life where I get to ask those questions and be curious about my own behavior and embrace the fact that, yeah, I'm an ADHD daddy.

Speaker 2 Natasha Rothwell, this was such a pleasure. Thank you so much.
Thank you.

Speaker 3 I enjoyed talking with you.

Speaker 2 Natasha Rothwell is an award-winning actor, writer, and series creator. She played Belinda in the current season of HBO's The White Lotus.

Speaker 2 Coming up, we remember actor Gene Hackman, who died yesterday at the age of 95.

Speaker 2 This is Fresh Air.

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Speaker 2 We learned today that actor Gene Hackman has died at the age of 95.

Speaker 2 Yesterday, authorities found the bodies of Hackman, his wife Betsy Arakawa, and their dog in their home in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

Speaker 2 We remember Gene Hackman with an interview Terry recorded with him in 1999.

Speaker 2 Hackman was a two-time Oscar winner whose movies included Bonnie and Clyde, The Conversation, Mississippi Burning, Unforgiven, The Quick and the Dead, Superman, Hoosiers, and The Royal Tenin Bombs.

Speaker 2 He made his last film in 2004 and stepped back from acting. Hackman won his first Academy Award as the violent racist narcotics detective Popeye Doyle in the 1971 film The French Connection.

Speaker 7 All right, Popeye's here.

Speaker 7 Get your hands on your heads. Get off the barn.
Get on the wall. Come on, move.
Move. Come on, sweetheart, move.
Hands out of your pocket. Turn around.
Come on, turn around. Get on the wall.
Get on.

Speaker 7 Get on. Turn around.
Get him out, turn around. Hey, you dropped that.
Get those hands up.

Speaker 7 Pick it up. Come on, move.
What are you looking at?

Speaker 7 All right, bring it here. Get your hands out of your pockets.
What's my name?

Speaker 5 Doyle.

Speaker 7 What?

Speaker 5 Mr. Doyle.
Come here.

Speaker 7 You pick your feet.

Speaker 7 Get over there. Get your hands on your head.

Speaker 4 When you were preparing for your role as a, you know, narcotics cop for French Connection, how did you see this role as comparing to other cops that you'd seen portrayed in movies?

Speaker 5 I try not to look at that kind of thing as an actor. I try to

Speaker 5 only

Speaker 5 look at characters and the script in a way that is always fresh for me.

Speaker 5 I ask myself a few very basic questions about

Speaker 5 how is this person like me? How is is this person unlike me?

Speaker 5 And in answering those things

Speaker 5 is where I usually come up with the character.

Speaker 4 Would you be able to tell us how you answered them?

Speaker 5 Well, there's some very obvious things where I ask myself, for instance, in the French connection, I would say to myself,

Speaker 5 Am I a policeman? No, of course not. What does it take to be a policeman? If I can really be honest about myself, given my personality, my physical makeup, what kind of a policeman would I be?

Speaker 5 Would I be able to do certain things that are required of me

Speaker 5 in this story? Yes, maybe.

Speaker 5 If I say to myself no, then the next question is, well, what do I have to do in order to convince somebody that I am capable of doing that?

Speaker 4 So when you ask yourself, what do I have to do to become that person in a role? What answers did you give yourself? What did you have to do to become that person?

Speaker 5 Well, some of it was pure acting. And some of it, as I said before, that sometimes I would say to myself, I couldn't do this.
I couldn't say that line to that character in reality.

Speaker 5 So then I have to ask myself,

Speaker 5 if you say you can't say that in reality, then

Speaker 5 how are you going to act that?

Speaker 5 I would then

Speaker 5 give myself a situation where under some circumstance

Speaker 5 I would be able to do that. I would relate to an argument possibly that I had had with somebody at some

Speaker 5 very high voltage time in my life

Speaker 5 to the point where I could say, okay, given the right circumstances, I can do that. Now,

Speaker 5 I will now try to recreate that moment, just to speak in layman's terms,

Speaker 5 for myself by

Speaker 5 doing it in a sensory way. What was I wearing that day that this event took place? What was the weather like?

Speaker 5 What was the atmosphere? What was the, and be very specific about that, so that then I can create, recreate a situation for myself

Speaker 5 that

Speaker 5 is similar to the situation in the script.

Speaker 4 You know, you were talking before about how when you do a character, you have to ask yourself, what's similar about me and this character, what's different about me and this character, what would I have to do to fill in the gap between what he would do and what I would do.

Speaker 4 In at least two recent movies, you played characters with a real sadistic streak, the sheriff in Unforgiven and the sheriff in The Quick and the Dead.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 these were characters who definitely had a strong sadistic streak. What do you do to get in the spirit of a character like that?

Speaker 5 I find in me a sadistic streak. I find something in me that

Speaker 5 may be not very attractive,

Speaker 5 but that I feel would be valuable

Speaker 5 in this context.

Speaker 5 I think

Speaker 5 if you search hard enough, you can find a lot of elements in yourself that

Speaker 5 you can use as an actor. You know, under certain circumstances, we're all capable of murder, I suppose.

Speaker 5 So you just have to find that circumstance.

Speaker 5 Sadism, I suppose, is not something that I find very attractive, but I guess there are certain things in me that will

Speaker 5 elicit that kind of thing.

Speaker 4 Well, on screen, you know, the great sadists always have a lot of charisma.

Speaker 5 Well, that's true.

Speaker 4 So it must be fun to play roles like that.

Speaker 5 It is. It's always more fun

Speaker 5 to play heavy than it is to play a good guy. My kids are always asking me to

Speaker 5 play these things, grandfathers and

Speaker 5 kindly old gentlemen. And I just tell them that, you know,

Speaker 5 not that I dislike watching that kind of thing, but for me to play it is not as interesting.

Speaker 4 Do you get offers for kindly old gentlemen kind of roles?

Speaker 5 I have, yes. I have grandfathers and things like that that are all-knowing and

Speaker 5 wise and all that. And

Speaker 5 they just don't interest me.

Speaker 4 You've actually dropped out of acting a couple of times, didn't you?

Speaker 3 Mm-hmm. Why?

Speaker 5 Yeah, well, I thought I wanted to paint. I thought I wanted to do a lot of things, and

Speaker 5 once I started doing those things, I found that I didn't have the skill

Speaker 5 that I

Speaker 5 pretend to have as an actor, and so I kind of drifted back to it. If you've done it as long as I have, it's very hard to drop it.
You know, there's something very seductive about acting

Speaker 5 because of the, you know, you come to work and there's 90 people standing there waiting for you to do something.

Speaker 5 And there is something both very heady and seductive and unattractive about that.

Speaker 2 Gene Hackman, speaking with Terry in 1999. He died yesterday at the age of 95.

Speaker 2 Fresher's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
Our managing producer is Sam Brigher.

Speaker 2 Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krinzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challener, Susan Yakundi, Anna Bauman, and Joel Wolfram.

Speaker 2 Our digital media producer is Molly C.B. Nesper.
Roberta Schirach directs the show. With Terry Gross, I'm Tanya Mosley.

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