Best Of: Sebastian Stan / Questlove On The Genius Of Sly Stone

Speaker 1 for this podcast and the following message come from Humana. Your employees are your business's heartbeat.

Speaker 1 Humana offers dental, vision, life, and disability coverage with award-winning service and modern benefits. Learn more at humana.com slash employer.

Speaker 2 From WHYY in Philadelphia, I'm Terry Gross with Fresh Air Weekend.

Speaker 2 Today, musician and documentary filmmaker Amir Kweslov Thompson is back to talk about his newest documentary on Sly Stone and his band The Family Stone.

Speaker 2 It's called Sly Lives, The Burden of Black Genius.

Speaker 2 Also, Sebastian Stan talks about his Oscar-nominated portrayal of Donald Trump. In the film The Apprentice, he plays Trump early in his career.

Speaker 2 The filmmakers received a cease-and-desist letter from Trump's lawyers, and Trump called the filmmakers human scum.

Speaker 3 Human scum. You know, our writer received a lot of death threats, a lot of anti-Semitic remarks as a result of that usage of words.

Speaker 2 Stan is originally from Romania, born during a communist dictatorship.

Speaker 2 That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.

Speaker 1 Support for this podcast and the following message come from BILT, where you can earn points on your monthly rent payment.

Speaker 1 But did you know they make it possible for you to get more outside of your home too?

Speaker 1 By paying rent through Built, you earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next lift ride, and more.

Speaker 1 Earn points on rent and around your neighborhood, wherever you call home, by going to joinbuilt.com slash fresh. This message comes from Schwab.
At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs.

Speaker 1 That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices. You can invest and trade on your own.

Speaker 1 Plus, get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs. With award-winning service, low costs, and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab.

Speaker 1 Visit schwab.com to learn more.

Speaker 5 This message comes from the Council for Interior Design Qualification. Interior Designer and CIDQ President Siavash Madani describes the rigor of NCIDQ certification.

Speaker 6 An NCIDQ certified interior designer must complete a minimum of six years of specialized education and work experience.

Speaker 6 Being NCIDQ certified means that you've proven your knowledge and skills and are recognized as a qualified interior design professional.

Speaker 5 Learn more at cidq.org/slash npr.

Speaker 2 This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Terry Gross.
Today, Amir Kweslev Thompson is back to talk about the life and legacy of Sly Stone.

Speaker 2 Thank you for letting me be myself

Speaker 2 again.

Speaker 2 Thank you for letting me be myself

Speaker 2 again.

Speaker 2 Questlove's new documentary called Sly Lives, aka The Burden of Black Genius, is about the impact of Sly Stone and his band Sly and the Family Stone on music and culture.

Speaker 2 Sly got his start as a DJ and record producer in the early 1960s, formed a multiracial band with his brother, sister, and other musicians, and went on to record hits like Everyday People, Dance to the Music, Family Affair, and Stand.

Speaker 2 Their music influenced Prince, George Clinton, and Funkadelic, the Ohio players, Earth, Wind and Fire, and many hip-hop artists.

Speaker 2 The film also covers the problems that came along with fame and drugs that took Sly Down.

Speaker 2 Questlove is the co-founder of the hip-hop band The Roots, which is the house band for The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon.

Speaker 2 If you feel as if you just heard him on our show, you did when we talked about his other new documentary focused on Saturday Night Live's music guests and music sketches over the past 50 years.

Speaker 2 That one's called Ladies and Gentlemen, 50 Years of SNL Music.

Speaker 2 So let's talk about your slide documentary. I really love this film.

Speaker 2 I want to start with a song, and it's their first big hit. It's Dance to the Music.
It's so catchy, and I'd like you to point out what makes song

Speaker 2 special in its moment, which was 1967 or 8.

Speaker 4 This is 1968.

Speaker 2 Okay. So what makes this song so special in its moment?

Speaker 4 Sly will invent the alphabet for which most of pop

Speaker 4 and R ⁇ B or black music will write from for, you know, the next 60 years. Like we're still writing from his dictionary to this day.
And so, okay, we have a four-minute song to make.

Speaker 4 How many micro songs can we have in this particular song? In other words, a typical Sly of the Family Stone song has a bunch of elements that will grab everybody.

Speaker 4 Like most songs will just have one specific hook. Like this is the course.
This is my hook. Okay, here are my lyrics.
Instead, Sly will do a four.

Speaker 4 a four bar part that's like earworm,

Speaker 4 you know, like that'll grab you. And then he'll do another four bars that will grab someone else.

Speaker 4 So, you know, lyrically and melodic-wise, his formula is also the world's funkiest nursery rhyme music.

Speaker 4 If you, if, like, look, look at Everyday People, his number one hit. Everyone knows Everyday People.
Everyday People is basically the schoolyard version.

Speaker 4 Like, the lyrics of that song, the melody of that song is basically schoolyard taunting.

Speaker 4 There is a black one who doesn't like the.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 his whole thing is like, if it can appeal to a kid, to a first grader,

Speaker 4 then melodically you have them. And rhythmically,

Speaker 4 his rhythm section, Greg Rico on drums and Larry Graham on bass, specifically Larry Graham's right thumb

Speaker 4 are probably the two most revolutionary aspects of Sly's music. And that's because Larry Graham is a bass player who used to play in bands without a drummer.

Speaker 4 So as a result, he would have to hit his bass in a very specific way so that you could feel the rhythm because there's no drummer there.

Speaker 3 And of course,

Speaker 4 once he's in the Sly system,

Speaker 4 he events kind of a thumping-plucking thing,

Speaker 4 which I guess most of your listeners would probably be familiar with the way that the Seinfeld theme sounds,

Speaker 4 or the way that Flea plays in the red hot chili peppers, like with his thumb. Larry Graham from Sly on the Family Stone, aka

Speaker 4 Drake's uncle.

Speaker 4 Oh, really? Literally? Yeah, Larry Graham is, well, you know, Drake's name is Aubrey Graham. Drake's father is Larry Graham's brother.
But yeah, he revolutionized a way to play bass.

Speaker 4 And so, I mean, pretty much he just invented the idea of like ear candy, like a whole bunch of micro ideas inside of one three-minute song. And that's the genius of Slystone.

Speaker 2 All right. Thank you for that.
Let's hear Dance to the Music.

Speaker 2 Dance to the music,

Speaker 2 dance to the music,

Speaker 2 dance to the music,

Speaker 2 dance to the music.

Speaker 2 All we need is a drama

Speaker 2 for people who only need a beat, yeah.

Speaker 2 I'm gonna add a little good top and make it easier to move your feet.

Speaker 4 I'm gonna add some bottom

Speaker 4 so that the dance of the just won't hide.

Speaker 4 You might like to hear my organ.

Speaker 4 I sit right silent right now.

Speaker 4 Cynthia, yeah.

Speaker 4 But if I could've hear the horns go,

Speaker 4 Cynthia holds the front.

Speaker 2 So that was Sly and the Family Stones 1968 hit Dance to the Music

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 the drumming is so infectious. It's like it's hard not to move.
Yes. When you hear that.
And it's not fancy.

Speaker 4 So what people don't know is that sly basically considered dance to the music like his sellout song sly had released this really intelligent debut album called a whole new thing which is probably my favorite album of his entire canon but it was way too wordy way too smart way too nerdy um just so ahead of its time that only a certain few latched on to it and the rejection of that album kind of depressed Sly and his and his label said, look,

Speaker 4 you know, like you're doing way too much. You got to simplify it.
People aren't as smart as you are. Like, instead of you being the smartest guy in the room, be a relatable guy in the room.

Speaker 4 Like, people just want to dance to the music. And kind of in a very bitter,

Speaker 4 scoffy way, like he was like, all right, well, people want to dance to the music, fine. And so he did a very sarcastic thing.
And so he's like, all right, well, people want to dance to the music?

Speaker 4 Fine. I'm going to make a song and I'm going to teach them how to dance to my music.
And essentially, dance to the music is an instructional introduction on who we are. Hey, I play the bass.

Speaker 4 I play the drums.

Speaker 4 I play the keyboards. And literally, that's the song.
There's no... There's no lyrics to the song.
It's just a sing-along.

Speaker 4 But what Sly doesn't realize is that in his very sarcastic, bitter, middle-finger type of way, he includes everybody and

Speaker 4 people grasp to it. And so Dance to the Music is one of those accidental number one songs that he didn't intend on catching on.

Speaker 4 It was more of like just a bitter, here, you guys want, you know, regular food instead of this, you know, meal I cooked up for you. Fine.
Take your sandwich and get out of here.

Speaker 4 And people gravitated towards it. So.

Speaker 2 But there's a lot going on in that song, song, including like the kind of scatting part.

Speaker 4 Yeah, so what he includes is, you know, a very,

Speaker 4 you know, the drumbeat that is played there is kind of a precursor to what we will call four on the floor.

Speaker 4 And 10 years later, four on the floor will just be, you know, whereas in the 60s, four on the floor means that the snare, the kick, and the hi-hat are all doing

Speaker 4 that, you know, it's teaching your body how to dance to it 10 years later they'll take the snare and the hi-hat away and it'll just be the kick boom boom boom boom and that will be the disco rhythm you know what we call boots and cats boots cats boots cats boots and cats so sly will basically kind of give you the prototype of what will be the disco pulse in the late 60s but you know he's writing the blueprint of what modern dance music will be in 10 years.

Speaker 2 But then he also does a lot of things that become beats for hip-hop artists later.

Speaker 4 Yes. So again, Sly believes in micro examples.

Speaker 4 Like, you know,

Speaker 4 another artist will make one hook, one melody, one lyric. You know, like just one thing, whereas Sly will probably try to cram in seven ideas at the same time.

Speaker 4 Like Sly puts a lot of attention to harmony, which is a church thing. So, that makes people feel comfortable, like, oh, they went to church because they sing harmonious.

Speaker 4 But then, Sly knows the importance of unison.

Speaker 4 Unison singing is where everyone sings in the same register. So, like, you know, think of the idea of like when Billy Joel's piano man comes on.

Speaker 4 You know, that's the type of song that you hear in a bar and, you know, everyone sings together as they hold their mug of beer and, you know, sing along. So that's a very inclusive type of thing.

Speaker 4 So, when everyone's singing in the same key without harmony, it's not intimidating. Like, the worst singer and the best singer can unify.

Speaker 4 So, he knew the power of unison singing, which is included, and harmony singing, which is a spectacle, and type of dance rhythms and innovative bass sounds.

Speaker 4 Like, just every new idea that was unexplored in 1967, 68, and 69, Sly was the pioneer and the first person to do those things.

Speaker 2 My guest is Amir Kweslov Thompson. His new documentary, Sly Lives, aka The Burden of Black Genius, is now streaming on Hulu.
We'll hear more of our conversation after a break.

Speaker 2 I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.

Speaker 1 Support for this podcast comes from GMC. At GMC, ignorance is the furthest thing from bliss.

Speaker 1 Bliss is research, testing, testing the testing, until it results in not just one truck, but a whole lineup.

Speaker 1 The GMC Sierra lineup, featuring the Sierra 1500, the Sierra Heavy Duty, and the all-electric Sierra EV. Because true bliss is removing every shadow from every doubt.
GMC, we are professional grade.

Speaker 1 Visit GMC.com to learn more.

Speaker 5 This message comes from Mattress Firm. Restless partner keeping you up? Or maybe it's your pet or kids climbing into bed? Those constant movements can make it hard to get the rest you need.

Speaker 5 Mattress Firm sleep experts will match you with a bed for deeper rest, like a Temper-Pedic. Its unique temper material absorbs motion for undisturbed rest.

Speaker 5 Shop Mattress Firm's Black Friday sale and save up to $500 on select Temper-Pedic adjustable mattress sets with next day delivery. Restrictions apply.
See mattressfirm.com or a store for details.

Speaker 2 So I want to play another slide track and talk about it with you because I found the film so interesting in really pointing to specifically what makes Sly's music so

Speaker 2 interesting and catchy and why so many people kind of, as you put it, use his vocabulary. So I want to play Everyday People because this has significance in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2 I mean, Sly's band is made up of black and white musicians, male and female musicians, and Everyday People speaks to inclusivity.

Speaker 2 So can you talk about that a little bit in terms of the types of music that are drawn on in Sly's music and the kind of inclusivity that he represented within the band and in some of his lyrics?

Speaker 4 Sly's role.

Speaker 4 Vernon Reed of Living Color kind of paints it that, you know, this marks the first time. that a black singer is kind of stepping out of the roles that we were traditionally playing.

Speaker 4 You know, before Sly, it was like you were strictly singing about love songs, in particular about relationships.

Speaker 4 You really weren't giving any commentary about everyday life or things that are relatable in the present to the audience that you're serving. It's almost like

Speaker 4 music before Sly was almost kind of a fantasy, if you will, like a means to escape your present situation. And Sly

Speaker 4 kind of uses his music as a means to

Speaker 4 sell humanity. And Everyday People is a great example

Speaker 4 where he's essentially saying that, hey, like, I breathe air like you do. I bleed like you do.
There's some things that we have in common.

Speaker 4 There's some things that we don't have in common, but we're all the same person. And sometimes, especially, you know, during that period, during the civil rights period, especially with

Speaker 4 that

Speaker 4 in which

Speaker 4 Martin Luther King has died and Malcolm X has died, Mecca Evers has died and the Kennedys died and kind of the dream of the civil rights period died.

Speaker 4 That kind of messaging

Speaker 4 at the time seemed very necessary for, you know, there was questions in the air, like, what do we do now? So Slide kind of accidentally

Speaker 4 inserts himself in the leadership position, kind of in the name of just

Speaker 4 trying to find relatable content to his lyrics, because, you know, a lot of his music is very self-confessional and very relatable, kind of in a way that, you know, Dylan was also

Speaker 4 affecting music with his, you know, with his songs at the time. And

Speaker 4 I guess

Speaker 4 Sly wound up being the unofficial spokesperson for

Speaker 4 black people.

Speaker 2 Well, let's hear everyday people, and this is from 1969.

Speaker 2 Sometimes I'm right, and I can be wrong.

Speaker 2 My own beliefs are in my song:

Speaker 2 a butcher, a baker, a drummer, and then

Speaker 2 makes no difference what group I'm in.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 am every day before

Speaker 2 there is a new one, and it's a green one for living on the bad one. I need the skinny one, different strokes

Speaker 2 for different folks.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 it's all that's cool to be good.

Speaker 2 We got to live together.

Speaker 2 I am no better,

Speaker 2 neither are you.

Speaker 2 We are the same, whatever we do.

Speaker 2 You love me, you hate me, you know me, and then

Speaker 2 you can figure out the bag I can.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 have everything

Speaker 2 wrong.

Speaker 2 There is a long hair that doesn't like a shot. Careful being slightly bridge, one that will not have the bow.
One big story

Speaker 2 for different

Speaker 2 summer

Speaker 2 school be done.

Speaker 2 We got to live together.

Speaker 2 There is a yellow one that won't except the plan.

Speaker 2 So that was Everyday People, which, as you pointed out, has a kind of nursery rhyme part to it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and that has, like I said, the message of inclusivity and togetherness.

Speaker 2 But as someone in your documentary points out, that alienated a lot of black listeners in the sense that, you know, police were beating up

Speaker 2 black people, which, of course, you could say today as well. But it was a very,

Speaker 2 it was, and also like black power was becoming a thing. It was risky.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it was risky because, again, this song is released

Speaker 4 right on the edge of the razor. Like, I mean, there's always a time in American history, and you know, today is no different.

Speaker 4 There's always a time in American history where we're just right on the edge, right on the precipice of like, you know,

Speaker 4 a kind of

Speaker 4 explosive

Speaker 4 end result, you know, and

Speaker 4 for someone to sort of come in waving a proverbial like white flag, that's a risky thing because, you know, one, we do see the evidence of the abuse that's given, but it's also like, who's going to be the first person to kind of come to half court, you know, to the 50-yard line?

Speaker 4 Who's going to cross the aisle and

Speaker 4 you know, start a kumbaya moment and sort of dismantle whatever conflicts that we have. And that's, that's the role that Sly's music played.

Speaker 4 Whereas,

Speaker 4 you know, the messaging of his music was always encouraging,

Speaker 4 always, you know, a cheerleader of

Speaker 4 justice and a cheerleader of positivity.

Speaker 4 And unfortunately,

Speaker 4 even though the music spoke of that optimism,

Speaker 4 inside he was sort of falling apart at the seams because there's a pressure of,

Speaker 4 or a burden, which is why we call it the burden of black genius.

Speaker 4 There's a burden when one puts themselves in that position where they often have to come up with the solutions or the answers to why society is the way it is.

Speaker 2 Amir, it's been so great to talk with you. And

Speaker 2 I just like all these projects you're doing.

Speaker 4 It's really remarkable.

Speaker 2 I really look forward to the Earth, Wind, and Fire move, you know.

Speaker 4 Well, whenever I do a press run, this is one of my favorite highlights. And, you know, I'm so glad that for the last 20 plus years, like, this has sort of been like the springboard for

Speaker 4 my projects coming out. And I thank you for receiving it.

Speaker 2 Amir Questlove-Thompson's new film is called Sly Lives, aka The Burden of Black Genius. It's streaming on Hulu.

Speaker 2 My next guest, Sebastian Stan, is nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film The Apprentice.

Speaker 2 It begins in 1973 when Trump is 27, still working for his father's real estate development company and trying to make a name for himself.

Speaker 2 The company is being sued for discriminating against black people in its rental units. Trump convinces his father to hire Roy Cohn as their attorney.

Speaker 2 Cohn was infamous for being the chief counsel to Senator Joe McCarthy's Senate investigation into suspected communists.

Speaker 2 Cohn becomes Trump's mentor, teaching him how to admit nothing and deny everything, go on the attack, and intimidate through the threat of lawsuits, or through actually filing lawsuits.

Speaker 2 Cohn is played by Jeremy Strong, who's also nominated for an Oscar.

Speaker 2 Last month, Stan won a Golden Globe for his starring role in A Different Man, as a man who's disfigured by a genetic condition that has grown fleshy tumors on his face.

Speaker 2 The tumors disappear after taking a new drug, and he emerges quite attractive, but remains alienated and withdrawn from other people.

Speaker 2 In the film I Tanya, Sebastian Stan played Tanya Harding's boyfriend, who plots to disable her ice skating competitor, Nancy Kerrigan.

Speaker 2 In the miniseries Pam and Tommy, he played Tommy Lee, Motley Cruise drummer and Pamela Anderson's husband.

Speaker 2 A lot of Stan's fans know him from the Marvel Cinematic Universe as Bucky Barnes, a recurring character in the Captain America films. Let's start with a scene from The Apprentice.

Speaker 2 Trump is planning to build Trump Tower and is trying to convince New York City Mayor Ed Koch that it will be so extraordinary, Koch should give him tax breaks. It'll be so good for New York.

Speaker 2 Roy Cohn is also in the room. You'll hear him jumping into the conversation.

Speaker 8 I really think this is going to be one of the most exceptional buildings anywhere in the world, and frankly, there's never been anything like it. 68 stories tall, 28 sides, a million square feet.

Speaker 8 Every unit will have amenities like you wouldn't believe, and the high floors have exceptional views over Central Park. The lobby, the floors will all be marble, pink Paradiso marble from Italy.

Speaker 8 It will have the largest atrium in the world, a 60-foot waterfall spanned by shops and retail and restaurants. And I think it's going to be something very special.

Speaker 8 Frankly, there's never been anything like that.

Speaker 9 And what are you going to call it?

Speaker 7 Trump Tower.

Speaker 7 Trump Tower?

Speaker 9 Oh, it's interesting.

Speaker 8 Look, he has a great track record, so we think this is a very reasonable ask.

Speaker 7 Well,

Speaker 9 as I frequently say about his buildings, the merits are fine. The thing is, we're just not going to give you the tax breaks.
Why would we?

Speaker 9 I mean, I can't let you get rich on the backs of the people of New York and their treasure.

Speaker 4 Well, Mr. Mayor, I mean, Donald.

Speaker 7 Look, Mr. Mayor,

Speaker 8 you're not. You're not, Mr.
Mayor, because I'm building a 68-story building that's going to employ 5,000 construction workers.

Speaker 9 And we have heard stories about the construction workers working on your projects. They don't get paid.
They have liance against you, Donald.

Speaker 8 I'm trying to employ people in New York and turn us back around. You're trying towards the future.

Speaker 8 And you're being a very unfair guy. Because, frankly, what do you know about me? What do you know about the amount of money that I made on my own? You don't know anything, to be perfectly honest, Mr.

Speaker 8 Mayor. You don't know me at all.

Speaker 8 But you will. You'll never forget me after this because I won't forget what you just did.

Speaker 8 Trump Tower will be built with or without you.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 8 You're about to be sued, Mr. Mayor.

Speaker 2 Sebastian Stan, welcome to Fresh Air. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.
I think you're great.

Speaker 3 Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 So, after choosing that clip, first of all, I should say, some listeners were probably thinking, he doesn't sound like Trump. What would you say to that?

Speaker 4 Well,

Speaker 3 I mean, I would say that Trump did not sound like Trump when he was in his mid to late 30s,

Speaker 3 which is when that was sort of happening.

Speaker 3 And I think that I did make some conscious choices very carefully with the voice, not only just to honor the age and what he sounded like at the time, which to me sounded very different than today, but also to not lean into it as much as it's become popular to do.

Speaker 3 Because a big challenge with this role was obviously to avoid falling into caricature and into sort of the version of a cartoon that he's somewhat become.

Speaker 3 One would argue even willingly on his own part,

Speaker 3 whether he's aware of that or not.

Speaker 3 Because the voice, along with mannerisms and other physical characteristics that he has, that we've become so

Speaker 3 accustomed to and we've been so oversaturated with,

Speaker 3 really had to be kind of very, I had to very carefully select and maneuver them and kind of earn them over the period of time of the movie, very much like he did as he grew into what we see today,

Speaker 3 but in part because I needed to bring an audience in on this journey as opposed to alienating them from the beginning with what they already sort of know and expect.

Speaker 2 Aaron Powell, you made the film while Biden was president in between Trump's two terms. What's it like watching his second term after having played him?

Speaker 4 Well,

Speaker 3 that's a really

Speaker 3 great question, and

Speaker 3 it's one where there's no real clear answer that I can give you.

Speaker 3 It's a mixed bag. It's a mixed bag.
I mean, in a lot of ways, a lot of things look very predictable to me, especially having studied him for this film.

Speaker 3 The victimhood blaming the revenge tactics, all that we go in depth in the film that he had absorbed from Roy Cohn.

Speaker 3 You really do see, I think, even if you look at the inauguration, I mean, and even at the debate, right, with Kamala Harris, I mean, you really see what we talk about in the movie of these sort of ways he's learned to flip it around on the other person and

Speaker 3 kind of just always just be denying reality and reshaping the truth as long as it fits his narrative and the complete, utter

Speaker 3 lack of acceptance for any criticism or any wrongdoing or anything whatsoever.

Speaker 3 So it's eerily familiar.

Speaker 3 It's

Speaker 3 predictable. It's

Speaker 3 also, I may say, tragic because I guess for me

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 I also feel like I saw a version of

Speaker 3 this overweight kid that was paranoid and insecure and desperate for attention

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 was made to pay a big price at

Speaker 3 daddy's big betrayal, sending him off to military school where he had to kind of,

Speaker 3 you know, whatever happened there that dehumanized him further and the revenge that he's been enacting out, you know, and at the same time,

Speaker 3 it's hard not to sort of... find some of it upsetting as well, because I do feel

Speaker 3 so much of it is rage and anger that's been suppressed and undealt with that we're all having to kind of just, you know, deal with and pay a price for.

Speaker 2 Playing him, I'm sure you had to be him and see things from his point of view, which requires you, the actor, to have empathy for Trump, the character that you're portraying.

Speaker 3 Well, I think as an actor, you have to kind of go through a process where you look at what are the things here that I feel that are useful for me to do this in the right way that it's asking of me?

Speaker 3 And what are the things that I feel that are going to work against me? And then you have to sort of become an investigator and you have to, in a way, be a bodyguard to the character you're playing.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I've wrestled with a degree of powerlessness as a child that I have felt growing up as a result of

Speaker 3 a lot of change that happened very quickly in formative years

Speaker 3 where I didn't feel safe and changing countries and changing schools and changing homes and

Speaker 3 caretakers coming and going and so on. And that's affected my life in a certain way, but I would argue nowhere near the degree of powerlessness that I feel

Speaker 3 he must have gone through in order to create such an ulterior ego to the extent that he has, because that's what I really see it's about with him. It's always power and mistrust and and paranoia and

Speaker 3 everything is transactional. That's how he operates.

Speaker 2 Sebastian Stan is nominated for an Oscar for his portrayal of Donald Trump in the film The Apprentice. We'll hear more of the interview after a break.
I'm Terry Gross and this is Fresh Air Weekend.

Speaker 5 This message comes from Vital Farms, who works with small American farms to bring you pastor-raised eggs. Farmer Tanner Pace shares why Vital Farms' mission aligns with his goals.

Speaker 3 goals.com.

Speaker 1 This message comes from Babel.

Speaker 1 Babel's conversation-based language technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world.

Speaker 1 With lessons handcrafted by over over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, start speaking with Babel today.

Speaker 1 Get up to 55% off your Babel subscription right now at babble.com slash NPR. Spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash NPR.
Rules and restrictions may apply.

Speaker 2 I want to move on to another new film of yours which has been playing on HBO lately and I assume on Macs and that's a different man for which you won a Golden Globe in January.

Speaker 2 And in this film, you're afflicted with neurofibromatosis, which is a genetic disease that creates fleshy tumors, and for you, fleshy tumors on the face. So you're kind of

Speaker 2 treated a bit like an outcast because people stare at you, they might move away.

Speaker 2 The character who you're attracted to, who seems to be very fond of you, just recoils when you try to touch her. So then you're part of a new drug experimental trial, and the drug cures the condition.

Speaker 2 The tumors kind of fall away, and you're very attractive underneath. You have a beautiful face.

Speaker 2 It's your face. It's Sebastian Stan's face.
But your character doesn't change. You're alienated.
You're isolated.

Speaker 2 and that that's not going to change.

Speaker 2 I'm wondering how much this film made you think about looks and how looks determine how people are treated in this world, which is something a lot of us think about all the time.

Speaker 1 Well, of course.

Speaker 3 I mean, how could it not?

Speaker 3 I mean, there were a couple parts to the film that I sort of related to. I mean, one,

Speaker 3 you know, I...

Speaker 3 I struggled with weight when I was a little kid.

Speaker 3 You know, I had my own, and obviously coming from a different country and trying to learn a new language and fit in, right, I had my own experiences where I felt alienated or where I felt people acted differently towards me because I was different or I sounded different or whatever.

Speaker 3 There was that piece.

Speaker 3 Then there was the piece of,

Speaker 3 which actually I wasn't aware of, which Aaron Schimberg, the writer-director, and Adam Pearson, who also stars in the movie, who has neurophymatosis, made me aware of, which was this piece about how

Speaker 3 as a recognizable person, recognizable actor on the street, I am sort of public property very much in the same way that somebody with a disability is, actually.

Speaker 3 And I have experienced that invasion of privacy.

Speaker 3 I experienced it daily when I walk around or if I'm sitting at lunch, someone's filming without my consent or someone's whispering or you feel people look at you or sometimes people come up and they tap you on the shoulder.

Speaker 3 And so these are all very similar things that Edward or people that have had

Speaker 3 you know, have stood out for various reasons deal with all the time. And the third part of it was

Speaker 3 that once I got the prosthetics on, which were incredible by this artist, Mike Marino, I went out on the street and I really walked around New York City and sort of experienced people's reactions firsthand.

Speaker 3 And I got to see how limited the narratives around disability and disfigurement are.

Speaker 2 Tell me about what you experienced doing that.

Speaker 3 Well, I mean,

Speaker 3 it was incredibly informative, obviously, for me as a character in terms of the physicality that I discovered from it.

Speaker 3 I mean, for one, you know, I could only see out of one eye and hear out of one ear. That affected the way I walked.

Speaker 3 That affected the distance that I was taking from people, how I stood, how much I saw, you know, but also just looking down.

Speaker 3 But in terms of the

Speaker 3 level of self-awareness and the powerlessness and the isolation that I experienced, you know, standing on a street on a busy corner in Manhattan, I don't think I ever experienced that in my life.

Speaker 3 And it was incredibly lonely.

Speaker 3 I think I've spoken about this, but a lot of people just either ignored or jumped to this sort of degree of pity that they feel like they owe you sort of something. And the only

Speaker 3 people that I interacted with very briefly that

Speaker 3 actually seemed where the connection seemed genuine were kids, you know. I had this one moment with this little girl

Speaker 3 who seemed fascinated by the way I looked, and it was just curiosity.

Speaker 3 And it's curiosity that sort of we lack or we're afraid of when we're dealing with sort of these differences.

Speaker 2 You grew up in Romania, and when you were growing up, I think you lived there till, what, the age of eight or nine?

Speaker 3 Yeah, about eight, yeah, until right after the revolution.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so you were very young during the end of communism in Romania when the dictator Nikolai Ceaușescu was overthrown. He was the head of the Communist Party there.

Speaker 2 There were protests. There were violent confrontations between the protesters and police.

Speaker 2 In 1989, as Ceaușescu and his wife tried to escape, they were captured. He stood trial, found guilty, and was executed.

Speaker 2 How aware were you as a child of what was happening in the country you were living in?

Speaker 3 Oh, I remember watching the execution on television.

Speaker 2 They televised that?

Speaker 3 I remember that happening, yeah.

Speaker 4 How was he executed?

Speaker 3 They were shot against the wall. You know, I do remember that because we only had one hour of news a night.
That was the TV we had, you know, only one hour of television a day.

Speaker 2 Oh, that was it?

Speaker 3 With the exception of New Year's Eve, which, you know, had television all night long. And so I have these vivid memories about being able to stay up New Year's Eve and how it was this magical time.

Speaker 3 But TV was very limited and propaganda was very

Speaker 3 specific. And

Speaker 3 there was always a degree of kind of awareness about what you talked about, even sometimes with your neighbors, because your neighbor could go and tell on you and so on and so forth.

Speaker 3 I mean, that's sort of like what I took from my

Speaker 3 mom and my grandparents, you know, when we were growing up. And

Speaker 3 it was only until later when I sort of learned a little bit more about my father, who had escaped Romania much earlier,

Speaker 3 and so on and so forth.

Speaker 3 But I have these images like that on television, and then also seeing the flag with a giant hole where the communist symbol had been cut out of flying on this dacha, which is the only car we were allowed to have.

Speaker 3 You know, everybody was allowed to have the same car across, and these teenagers screaming.

Speaker 2 So your father was able to get out of Romania

Speaker 2 before the communist government fell, and I know he helped other people get out as well.

Speaker 2 Was he still married to your mother at the time?

Speaker 6 No, no.

Speaker 3 My father was

Speaker 3 part of that generation of young people that were really

Speaker 3 trying to find a way to live

Speaker 3 around communism and stand up to communism. And, you know, he had been in the Navy.

Speaker 3 you know, he'd worked on a cargo ship and he had helped a lot of people escape the country. And there was, you know,

Speaker 3 he had created a lot of attention on him to the point where it was no longer safe for him to be in the country.

Speaker 3 And there was a degree of that that we knew and there's a degree of that that we didn't know, you know.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 I think in some ways, and certainly a lot of people that I've spoken to years later about

Speaker 3 who were his friends and who knew him,

Speaker 3 he was heralded a hero in a way to them.

Speaker 2 Is he still alive?

Speaker 3 No, he's no longer alive. No.

Speaker 2 Were you ever able to talk to him about this?

Speaker 3 I did, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 He passed away recently,

Speaker 3 but

Speaker 3 we've had, we were able to sort of connect

Speaker 3 later in life,

Speaker 3 like basically more when I was 17, 18.

Speaker 3 he was in California at the time. And it was actually, I was very lucky because I was trying to be an actor and I was coming out to LA.
I didn't live in LA. I was living in New York.

Speaker 3 I just graduated from school, but I needed to come out to L.A. for pilot season and auditions and things like that.
And I had no money and I was able to kind of go and live with him

Speaker 3 and go audition and you know, use his car. And so that time we really, we really connected and I got to know him.
And I think by the end of his life, I think we really

Speaker 3 did become very close. And

Speaker 3 that was important for me.

Speaker 2 Were you surprised to hear some of the things he told you about his past?

Speaker 3 Yes and no. But at the same time, you know, I think one of the things I didn't really understand is how much he loved America,

Speaker 3 you know, how much he loved and how strongly he felt about

Speaker 3 America, you know, and

Speaker 3 the 80s and Ronald Reagan and what it meant, make America great again. And

Speaker 3 really, really was proud to have come here and been able to have had an opportunity to

Speaker 3 start a life, you know, and get his passport and work and earn a living and be free, you know. And

Speaker 3 these are all things I thought about when I was doing this movie. These are all things I thought about.

Speaker 3 And I mean, I had a degree of that that, I mean, it makes me emotional to think about it, but like

Speaker 3 I had a degree of that that I always understood about, you know, that I was when I came to New York and my mom and everything. And

Speaker 3 the amazing opportunity that I was blessed with to be able to come here, you know, I mean, for a kid from this country, there are many people that didn't make it, you know, and so the message was, what are you going to do with it?

Speaker 3 You know, what are you going to make out of yourself? You know, and

Speaker 3 there was great liberty in that and pressure. And also,

Speaker 3 right, that's the American dream. And that's what the movie to me is, The Apprentice.
That was a lot of what I was trying to understand also. But questions I had about

Speaker 3 where my father came from and what did he see in this country and what did this country give us and how far you can go. I mean, there's a lot to talk about, but hopefully you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, when you came here, you had already lived in Romania. You had to learn German from scratch when you and your mother moved to Vienna.

Speaker 2 And I think w w were you how old were you when you came to the US?

Speaker 3 I came when I was officially we moved in ninety five when I was twelve. We had visited US um a couple of times before that and then we moved in ninety five, summer of ninety five.

Speaker 2 Okay, so you grow up in Romania where there's an hour of T V a night and it's probably just propaganda.

Speaker 2 And then you move to America where everybody just like watches T V and goes to the movies and um this is before, probably before the heavy days of the internet and social media.

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah, there was none of that.

Speaker 4 None of that.

Speaker 3 I remember my first movies in a theater were Jurassic Park and Mrs. Doubtfire.
I mean that like that was blew my mind, you know. And

Speaker 2 you say it blew your mind, but I can imagine that a lot of pop culture did because you weren't a part of it. You didn't get to grow up with it the way everybody around you in America did.

Speaker 3 No, it's true. And actually, I was always behind as a result.
Like, for instance, with the Beatles or, you know, things that people kind of like just know second nature.

Speaker 3 I was always discovering them like too late. So I was never the cool kid in high school because of that.
You know, I was kind of trailing behind.

Speaker 2 What did you do to try to catch up?

Speaker 3 Well, I think, you know, the survive mechanism is like

Speaker 3 you don't want to be different. You know, you want to just fit in.

Speaker 3 I remember being even like really

Speaker 3 insecure about my name, Sebastian, that it was such a different name. Everybody in my high school was, even in middle school, I mean,

Speaker 3 was named Anthony, Christopher, you know, Sam, whatever, like, there was all these names. And there was a part of me even wanting to be named different.

Speaker 3 So I was petrified about being different, you know,

Speaker 3 right? It was like the late 90s. And so you try to wear, you know, the jeans everybody was wearing.
I remember these Genco jeans or whatever. It was like every skater guy had these baggy, baggy jeans.

Speaker 3 I wanted to get a pair of that. You know, I'd cut my hair like in sync or backstreet boards.
It was like that mushroom haircut that DiCaprio had in Titan.

Speaker 4 You know, like you just, you just wanted to be,

Speaker 3 you just wanted to look like what everybody else is doing.

Speaker 2 It seems like you spent part of your early life in hiding. You know, literally, you had watch what you said in Romania.
In Vienna, you had to learn German and to fit in.

Speaker 2 And, you know, you had to learn that from scratch. You come to America.

Speaker 2 You try to be like other teens even though you had a totally different background than american teens did so there's a lot that you

Speaker 2 had to acquire and a lot probably that you had to hide

Speaker 3 yeah no i well i i think you're right but i think this is what acting did for me acting liberated me from that i mean i it was really around the same time that i that i found acting um

Speaker 3 basically in high school kind of when i was 14 something like that, and doing a school play.

Speaker 3 And then I went to this Stage Door Manor acting camp, which was a very, pretty well-known acting camp, met friends there.

Speaker 3 And I just, I don't know, it just, it was the first thing that never, that just allowed me or gave me permission to sort of

Speaker 3 kind of have more confidence and courage. And, and,

Speaker 3 and so as a result, I think

Speaker 3 the work has always been, no matter what it is, you you know, no matter how scary it might be or unknown to me it might be,

Speaker 3 it's always liberated me. It's never hindered me.

Speaker 2 So I'm thinking about your mother here.

Speaker 2 Your mother moves with you and your new stepfather to New York. You know, it's always hard to uproot a child

Speaker 2 and uproot them to another country. That's probably super hard.

Speaker 2 But I'm thinking the life you have now, the respect and fame that you've achieved, all that you've accomplished, must make her feel really good about the decisions that she made and alleviate any guilt that she might have experienced at the beginning when you were trying so hard to acclimate to a new country.

Speaker 3 Oh, absolutely. I think so.
I mean, you know, my mother

Speaker 3 is coming with me to the Oscars. You know, she's my date.

Speaker 3 I think she's very proud, you know, and I'm so insanely grateful to her for supporting me. You know, I had a supporting parent with acting.
A lot of kids do not have supportive parents like that.

Speaker 3 So I felt like, you know, she did her best, maybe more than her best, you know, and she

Speaker 3 made tough choices in her life, but certainly

Speaker 3 gave me an opportunity in a life. So this whole experience has been all about

Speaker 3 being able to thank her, you know, and my stepdad.

Speaker 2 So at the Oscars, I always wonder, what's it like if you lose and the camera is on you and you have to pretend like, I'm so happy for the winner. That's so wonderful.

Speaker 4 Oh my God.

Speaker 3 The impossible has already happened, you know. As somebody told me early on

Speaker 3 when they said, you know, if you think this is going to be a thankless job, like you're not, you know, if you think you're going to do this movie and someone's going to, you're going to, first of all, you're going to piss off everybody.

Speaker 3 No one's going to, not one person's going to, whether they care for him or they hate him, they're all going to be pissed. No one's going to see anything in this or in any value in this.
So

Speaker 3 I just keep pinching myself going like, I remember that, you know, the season desist letter. And then, you know, no one wanted to buy the film.
And then it's like, is it going to come out?

Speaker 3 And then, oh, we have no money. There's no billboard on Sunset.
And now here, here's Jeremy and I kind of go to this thing. And so I,

Speaker 3 you know, it's a funny moment when you're watching that. Of course, you know, we've all seen Oscars and you kind of go, what's going on through everybody's mind?

Speaker 3 But I feel the win has already happened here, you know, for me. And it's, it's, um,

Speaker 3 I will be grateful in that moment no matter what

Speaker 3 at this point. I know that's like what everybody says, but I think for me, genuinely,

Speaker 3 it's just been so surreal. It's impossible, I think, for me to have any more expectations at this point.

Speaker 2 Sebastian Stan, it's just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much, and good luck at the Oscars.

Speaker 3 It's been lovely. Thank you for having me, and I really appreciate your questions and taking the time.

Speaker 2 Sebastian Stan is nominated for an Oscar for his starring role in the film The Apprentice.

Speaker 2 Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller.
Our technical director and engineer is Argy Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Brigher.

Speaker 2 Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

Speaker 1 This message comes from Jackson. Let's face it, retirement planning can be confusing.
At Jackson, we're working to make retirement clear for everyone, starting with you.

Speaker 1 Our easy-to-understand resources and user-friendly digital tools help simplify your entire experience. You can have confidence in your retirement with clarity from Jackson.

Speaker 1 Seek the clarity you deserve at jackson.com.

Speaker 1 Jackson is short for Jackson Financial Incorporated, Jackson National Life Insurance Company, Lansing, Michigan, and Jackson National Life Insurance Company of New York, Purchase, New York.

Speaker 1 This message comes from the International Rescue Committee. Co-founded with help from Albert Einstein, the IRC has been providing humanitarian aid for more than 90 years.

Speaker 1 The IRC helps refugees whose lives are disrupted by conflict and disaster, supporting recovery efforts and responding within 72 hours of crisis. Donate today by visiting rescue.org/slash rebuild.