Best Of: Ariana Grande / Inside A Dominatrix's Dungeon

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Speaker 2 from WHYY in Philadelphia. This is Fresh Air Weekend.
I'm Tanya Mosley. Today, Ariana Grande joins me to talk about the cultural phenomenon of Wicked.

Speaker 2 She's nominated for an Oscar for Best Supporting Actress in the musical film, where she stars as Galinda, set years before The Wizard of Oz.

Speaker 2 Grande and I talk about some of the underlying messages in the film about belonging and good versus evil.

Speaker 2 And she says growing up performing, basically being a theater nerd, actually prepared her for this role.

Speaker 3 Like we're on our own planet. Right.
We are aliens. Yeah.
We are the best kind of nerd, by the way. And some of us are so lucky to have it.

Speaker 2 Also, writer and dominatrix Brittany Newell joins us to talk about her new novel, Softcore, which explores the underworld of San Francisco's dive bars, strip clubs, and BDSM dungeons.

Speaker 2 And Maureen Corrigan reviews two quintessential New York City books. That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.

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Speaker 2 This is Fresh Air Weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley.

Speaker 2 The musical Wicked is a top contender at this year's Academy Awards with 10 Oscar nominations, including Best Supporting Actress for my guest today, Ariana Grande.

Speaker 2 Wicked has become somewhat of a cultural phenomenon, introducing new layers of the story of Oz that really challenge audiences to look beyond surface appearances and question preconceived notions of good and evil.

Speaker 2 Ariana Grande stars as the privileged and popular Galinda, who develops a friendship with Elphaba, played by Cynthia Arrivo, born with green skin and ostracized by society.

Speaker 2 As a prequel to The Wizard of Oz, the film is set years before Dorothy arrives in Oz, and it charts the transformations of Elphaba into the wicked witch of the West and Galinda into Glinda the Good.

Speaker 2 Here's Grande as Galinda, singing popular, a song that gives insights into her character.

Speaker 3 Elfie, now that we're friends, I've decided to make you my new project. Oh, you really don't have to do that.
I know.

Speaker 3 That's what makes me so nice.

Speaker 5 Whenever I see someone less fortunate than I,

Speaker 3 and let's face it right, who isn't less fortunate than I?

Speaker 5 My tender heart tends to start to bleed

Speaker 3 And when someone needs a makeover I simply have to take over I know

Speaker 5 I know

Speaker 5 exactly

Speaker 5 what they need

Speaker 5 And even in your case

Speaker 5 Though it's the toughest case I've yet to face

Speaker 5 Don't worry, I'm determined to succeed

Speaker 5 Follow my lead.

Speaker 5 Yes,

Speaker 5 indeed.

Speaker 5 You

Speaker 5 will

Speaker 5 be

Speaker 3 popular.

Speaker 3 You're gonna be popular.

Speaker 3 I'll teach you the proper poise when you talk to boys.

Speaker 5 The ways you've alerted and drunk slowly. I'll show you what shoes to wear, how to fix your hair.

Speaker 3 Everything that really counts to be popular.

Speaker 3 I'll help you be popular.

Speaker 5 You'll hang with the right cohorts.

Speaker 3 You'll be good at sports.

Speaker 5 No, the salang you've got to know. So let's start, cause you've got an awfully long way to go.

Speaker 2 Ariana Grande says that from the moment she first saw the musical on Broadway at 10 years old, Her life was divided into two chapters, before wicked and after.

Speaker 3 True. This is true.

Speaker 2 This this is very true ariana grande welcome to fresh air thank you tanya for having me thank you so much you know this movie has become a cultural phenomenon and it's so interesting how the subtext really um speaks to the time period that we're in it's timeless story but it also is like very timely yeah very timely

Speaker 3 you first saw wicked on broadway at 10 yes i was 10 years old and i got to see the original broadway cast with kristen chenoweth and adina menzel and norba leo butts and Chris Fitzgerald and it was very life-changing.

Speaker 3 What was it about Wicket?

Speaker 2 Because I know that you were somewhat of a theater kid. You were seeing lots of musicals but this one in particular really spoke to you.

Speaker 3 Yes, I mean I think you know I was so young. Of course I loved the music.
I loved the comedy.

Speaker 3 I remember Glinda's impact on the audience and that infectious laughter and how it made me feel and everyone around me.

Speaker 3 I think that was just like so impactful, but also the themes of sisterhood. I don't think I ever saw a show

Speaker 3 or anything at that point that revolved around these two women who are so different, learning each other and really falling in love with each other through their differences and kind of learning how to protect and accept and celebrate each other, even when it meant that they disagreed.

Speaker 3 It was just kind of like this embodiment of like true

Speaker 3 unconditional love and friendship in a way that I hadn't seen portrayed in a story before.

Speaker 3 And I think it really spoke to me.

Speaker 2 Is it true that you auditioned five times?

Speaker 3 Okay, so I auditioned three times.

Speaker 3 My first audition,

Speaker 3 I sang actually for both roles. Even though I came in in all pink, I knew I was Glinda.
I knew that was what I was supposed to be doing.

Speaker 3 I think they just asked me to sing for both parts, so of course.

Speaker 2 For alphabet and for

Speaker 3 both for both witches. So I was of course down to do whatever was was asked of me, of course.

Speaker 3 And I had started uh training with my vocal coach Eric Vitro three months before my first audition to train my voice to sing in

Speaker 3 a colorotura soprano placement, which is quite different from what I usually do. Even though my voice naturally sits in a high register, it's a totally different style of singing.
And

Speaker 3 you know, though I do use my falsetto quite often in pop music, it's just a completely different style, tone, vibrato, sound.

Speaker 3 And usually I'm using in pop music either my like mixie belt or my whistle register.

Speaker 3 So there's this big gap in between those two, which is where Glinda kind of lives and where that operatic sound needed to be strengthened and found in my voice and trained to become authentic sounding.

Speaker 3 It really required a lot of work. And what was really fun and interesting about that was that I went to get my

Speaker 3 vocal cords checked at the beginning of my training process to see if I could see a difference and like the muscles, like just how the shape is. And

Speaker 3 you can actually track the cords changing shape while I was training and stuff like that. It's really, I'm a nerd for that kind of stuff, but

Speaker 3 the training was extensive and it was really thrilling to follow the progress.

Speaker 3 So, for my first audition, I sang No One Warns the Wicked and Popular, but I also sang The Wizard Nine Defying Gravity. But it was very clear what I was meant for.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 And in case it wasn't clear, I was in all pink and I had a pink mug and I had a pink,

Speaker 3 everything was very Galindified, just sending the subliminal message.

Speaker 3 And then I was called back for Glinda, and I sang more Glinda songs. So that was my second audition, and that was really thrilling.

Speaker 3 And I got to do my scenes with the casting associate, Tiffany Little from Bernie Telsey's office. And she was masked because this was during

Speaker 3 kind of a little wave of it at the tail end of COVID.

Speaker 3 The best thing was feeling that I could tell under her mask that she was giggling because her eyes were smiling. You could see the smile in her eyes.

Speaker 3 And I could feel it, and it was just really special.

Speaker 3 And then my final callback was a chemistry test with two different alphabas. It was three hours long

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 they were so beautiful and wonderful, but surprisingly, neither one of them was Cynthia. So we didn't actually get to chemistry test together at all.
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 I want to play a little bit from the film so that folks can get an idea of your voice training that you're talking about. I mean, you are known for your four octave range, but

Speaker 2 your acting is on full display in the film. But as you mentioned, like you really had to get your voice in shape for this, and uh, so let's play a little bit of No One Mourns the Wicked.

Speaker 2 Look, it's Glinda!

Speaker 5 Let us speak loud,

Speaker 5 let us speak rage voice,

Speaker 5 let us rejoice if I thought goodness could subdue

Speaker 5 the wicked workings of you

Speaker 5 now.

Speaker 5 Isn't it nice to know

Speaker 5 that good will conquer evil

Speaker 5 The truth we all believe

Speaker 5 for you

Speaker 2 That was my guest, Ariana Grande, singing, No One Mourns the Wicked from the musical wicked. We'll continue our conversation after a short break.
This is Fresh Air Weekend.

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Speaker 2 I want to play another pivotal scene from the film. It's when your character, Galinda, and Alphaba, first meet.
And Alphaba has arrived at school and everyone reacts.

Speaker 2 They're really startled by the color of her skin, which is green.

Speaker 2 The interaction the two of you have showcases your differences because Alphaba is strong and smart, and you're kind of silly and a little bit superficial. Let's listen.

Speaker 3 What?

Speaker 3 What are you staring at?

Speaker 3 Do I have something in my teeth?

Speaker 3 No, it's just

Speaker 5 you're green.

Speaker 5 I am.

Speaker 5 Fine.

Speaker 2 Let's get this over with.

Speaker 3 No, I am not seasick. No, I did not eat grass as a child.
And yes,

Speaker 3 I've always been green.

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 3 I for one am so sorry that you have been forced to live with

Speaker 3 this.

Speaker 3 Is that so? Yes.

Speaker 3 And it is my intention to major in sorcery. So if at some point you wanted to address the um

Speaker 5 problem

Speaker 3 perhaps I could help.

Speaker 3 She's so good. We love you.

Speaker 3 Offering to help someone that you don't know with skills that you don't have,

Speaker 3 I'm sure everyone is duly impressed. I could care less what others think.

Speaker 5 Couldn't.

Speaker 3 What? You couldn't care less what other people think.

Speaker 5 Though I...

Speaker 2 I doubt that.

Speaker 2 That was my guest, Ariana Grande, starring as Galinda in the musical film, Wicket.

Speaker 2 Ariana, Galinda is kind of like the foil for Alphaba. She represents conformity and societal expectations while Alphaba embodies this rebellious thing.
You know, she's trying to be an individual.

Speaker 2 She's kind of forced to be because she is seen as such. Are there elements of both of them? It's so interesting that you came prepared to audition for both of them knowing that you were there for one.

Speaker 2 But do you see elements of yourself in both characters or either of the characters?

Speaker 3 It's funny because I feel like That is why wicked is what it is.

Speaker 3 I think that's why people respond to it the way that they do because I think pieces of both of these women exist within all of us and I think that's what makes it hit home the way that it does and touch people the way that it does because I think everyone can identify a time in their life where they felt like Alphabet at the center of the dance floor at the Osda's ballroom while everyone is circled around her

Speaker 3 laughing or making her feel othered. Everyone, I think, has felt that at least once.

Speaker 3 And simultaneously, I think everyone can also acknowledge a time in their life where they felt like Linda in that moment as well.

Speaker 3 Where they know that the mirror is being held up and they have an opportunity to change and to become better, where their bubble of privilege or of circumstance that is specific to them is popped for the first time.

Speaker 3 A life-changing moment where we learn to see something a different way. And I think because of

Speaker 3 the incredible nuance and humanness that lives within both of them, that's why they both live in all of us, kind of.

Speaker 3 And I think that's why it feels the way it does for so many people.

Speaker 2 Is it true that the two of you insisted on

Speaker 2 because Cynthia is also an amazing vocalist as well?

Speaker 3 She's the best in the whole world. She really is, I swear.
And as incredible, I'm sorry, I promise I'll let you ask your question.

Speaker 3 But as beautiful as she sounds in the film and in the end result and whatever it is, it's even more stunning face-to-face, just in person, in the thin air.

Speaker 3 It's just such a spectacular gift that she has. I'm sorry, what was the question? Well, the two of you all...

Speaker 2 Is it true that you insisted on singing on set? Yes. Which doesn't always happen

Speaker 2 when there's a musical movie happening.

Speaker 3 Well, it kind of demands it. The material demands that because

Speaker 3 the

Speaker 3 emotional context of what we're singing about sometimes can evoke the performance to be different, take to take.

Speaker 3 Sometimes it's more emotional, sometimes it's different, sometimes it's stronger, sometimes. And also with the comedic elements, I love to improv.
I love to surprise people.

Speaker 3 So I also, as Glinda, kind of required that freedom to be able to do whatever felt most honest and

Speaker 3 galinda in the moment. So the material demands it from both of us.

Speaker 3 Also, we are singers. We love to sing.
We love to sing so much. And it would have felt dishonest to not sing live for this.
And also, there's even more.

Speaker 3 You know, there are so many beautiful Glindas and Alphabas who have done this on Broadway and the West End on tour eight shows a week.

Speaker 3 So in solidarity with them, if we have to do something 28 takes in a row live, we will do it.

Speaker 3 We're a part of a beautiful coven.

Speaker 3 And we had to do that with our sister witches. But also, it really just comes back to allowing the performances to be as honest as possible.

Speaker 3 If we are married to a track that's pre-recorded, there's less room for honesty to pour out.

Speaker 3 And when you're emotional, your voice cracks and you have things seep through that, you know, are beautiful in their own way.

Speaker 3 So that was a really extraordinary gift. And Simon Hayes, our incredible head of sound, turned the set into a recording studio.

Speaker 3 I mean, everywhere you looked, there was a microphone in Cynthia's hat, in both of my little peaks of my bubble dress, the pink bubble dress, in the bubble itself, and the wig and the thing and everything.

Speaker 3 That required a lot of work to be able to protect the quality and make sure that we were covered from every angle because if a gust of wind came or if which there was so much wind and everything and rain and flying.

Speaker 5 Just all the elements were part of the production.

Speaker 3 Yes, and somehow Simon was able to figure it out. And also you can hear in the background.

Speaker 3 I'm sorry. I'm a nerd when it comes to this stuff.
Can you tell?

Speaker 3 But when I was helping with the vocal production, which was really a cool part of this, and I was helping comp through the takes of the live takes of Define Gravity. And

Speaker 3 I called Cynthia on FaceTime because I was so excited with what I you could hear her little when you solo the vocal for the second verse, I'm to accepting limits.

Speaker 3 You hear her little feet going up the stairs in the background when you solo the vocal. And I'm a nerd, so I love that.

Speaker 3 You could hear the little stairs creaking and her shoes going up, and it was so cool.

Speaker 2 You're like a

Speaker 2 savant when it comes to sound, huh?

Speaker 2 Would you say that?

Speaker 3 I think that's such a nice, that's such a generous way of putting it.

Speaker 5 Well, I think it's interesting.

Speaker 2 You know, I have met a few people, but not a lot of people, who comment on all of the sound. I do love sound, not just the vocals.

Speaker 3 I love sound. I love voices and different tones and different textures.
And I think that's why when I was younger, I learned impersonations at a young age.

Speaker 3 Like Judy Garland might have actually been my first with The Wizard of Oz being on TV.

Speaker 3 I remember just sort of looking at her posture and also like her vibrato and her tone and finding that so interesting, noticing how voices can be so different at a young age.

Speaker 2 I'm just imagining a young little Ariana in front of the television looking at Judy Garland. Yes.

Speaker 2 Was there a particular line of hers or any part of the film that that comes to you that you used to impersonate?

Speaker 3 Well, Summer Over the Rainbow was a big one.

Speaker 3 I loved Summer Over the Rainbow.

Speaker 3 I used to wear my little gingham dress in front of the T V, but I used to do a weird thing where I would wear it with like

Speaker 3 a scary movie mask.

Speaker 2 Like the movie Scary.

Speaker 5 Like the scary, like scream. Yeah, the movie scary.

Speaker 3 Or a Jason mask. I had that as well.
The one with the little the hockey thing. It was quite strange, but I needed to put my twist on it, you know?

Speaker 5 What was yeah, what was that? Oh, I don't know.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I wish I could tell you.
But it makes sense. Yeah, like if you know, I don't know.
My mom loved Halloween, and we all loved Halloween.

Speaker 2 It all made sense back then.

Speaker 5 Yes, it did.

Speaker 3 It's hard to put a finger on it now, but

Speaker 3 I feel like it helps set up the visual. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I don't want to overspeak, but

Speaker 2 did you ever feel like people

Speaker 2 thought of you as a pop star and maybe not hefty enough to take on a role like that?

Speaker 5 Oh, totally.

Speaker 3 Oh, absolutely. And then some.
I felt like I had everything working against me for when, you know,

Speaker 3 when it comes to this role, I didn't think I,

Speaker 3 you know, I genuinely felt like I had so much to prove so that I could earn

Speaker 3 the

Speaker 3 openness from John, from the casting directors, from the producers to maybe see a possible chance that I could disappear into this person.

Speaker 3 I thought, oh my goodness, I know what's required of Glinda. I know she's funny.

Speaker 3 I know it's high notes, and I know that maybe some people people who don't know her well enough would think that I'm the perfect fit, but that's just kind of scratching the surface.

Speaker 3 And I have to kind of be able to earn this and have every tool in my box available to me to use so that every piece of her

Speaker 3 that is emotional, that is, that is dramatized, that is insecure, that is why Glinda is the way she is,

Speaker 3 you know, so reliant upon external validation and the popularity and how important that is to her.

Speaker 3 And, you know, that's a real person under there with a real beating heart and where she goes from part one, her arc in Act Two and what she experiences. And, you know, it requires a lot, this role.

Speaker 3 And I thought that I would really have a lot to prove. That's why I took the audition process so seriously, because I knew I wanted to do the work so desperately to earn

Speaker 3 a chance.

Speaker 2 How do you push away self-doubt?

Speaker 3 I think you kind of have to. This is something that my acting coach, Nancy Banks, and I talked about so much.
She is one of the most goodly good witches on this earth, I have to say.

Speaker 3 But, you know, it's just befriending those monsters

Speaker 3 in a way. You kind of look at them and say, hey, the monsters,

Speaker 3 yeah, self-doubt or fear or whatever it is, or nerves, or whatever. And you have to kind of realize nerves are great.
It means you care so much, and

Speaker 3 that your ego can be left far, far, far behind in a faraway land so that you can do beautiful work and so that you know you care.

Speaker 3 You're acknowledging this, and using those nerves as positive carbonation for the performance, and also being able to put a little flashlight on your little fears or monsters in your head and say, like, hi, thank you for protecting me.

Speaker 3 They're totally valid. Your fears of, you know, the ways in which this might, you know, could possibly whatever.
Thank you for caring the way that you do. However, I have work to do.

Speaker 3 It would be beautiful if you could please step outside and get me a coffee, maybe come back later. You know, you're totally gonna come back later.
I know that.

Speaker 3 So thank you for stepping away for a little because I have to get to know Glinda for now and I have to do this work. I have to give myself over to this person for a little bit.

Speaker 3 And then I'll get to know her monsters in the meantime so that she can have real monsters in her head and those can be present. And it's just kind of learning how to do that dance.

Speaker 3 It's all a mental dance. So it's important to learn how to navigate those guys and be able to embrace and also keep them where they're supposed to be.

Speaker 2 One of the things about a movie like Wicked, I mentioned right off the top that it's a cultural phenomenon, is that it has now become for

Speaker 2 young people like the same thing that the Broadway play was for you at a young age but in a more accessible way because it's a movie so kids of all walks of life who won't ever be able to see a theater production can now be a part of this in a real way

Speaker 2 You've had firsthand experiences with people who shared with you how much this movie means to them. Can you share some of that with me?

Speaker 3 I mean, it's an incredible privilege to be a part of this version of it and to have it be so accessible to so many people and to see the response be what it's been.

Speaker 3 I think so many new theater kids have been born, you know, and that's such a beautiful gift because it's such an extraordinary

Speaker 3 community and a beautiful community to grow up in. It's a safe place.
You feel less alone when you find a fellow theater kid, when you find someone who loves the same musicals as you.

Speaker 3 So it's really moving and really special.

Speaker 2 Ariana Grande, thank you so much for this conversation. It's been such a pleasure to meet you.
Thank you. Congratulations on your Oscar nomination.

Speaker 3 Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 Ariana Grande has been nominated for her role in the movie Musical Wicked. The film has received 10 Oscar nominations.

Speaker 2 The new Bob Dylan movie has put our book critic Maureen Corrigan in a New York state of mind. Here's her review of two quintessential New York books.

Speaker 7 I've always loved coming to New York stories, and judging from the acclaim that's greeted the new Bob Dylan movie, America does too.

Speaker 7 Dylan, played by Timothy Chalamet, arrives in the Greenwich Village of 1961.

Speaker 7 In no time, this complete unknown is embraced by the burgeoning folk scene of Greenwich Village, thanks in part to the city's gift of proximity.

Speaker 7 But I wonder about the longevity of the coming to New York genre. These stories of arrival and promise fulfilled are almost always nostalgic, predating the New York of obscenely high rents.

Speaker 7 And does a dreamer even need to come to New York or any city for that matter in the age of the internet? In a New York minute, Kay Sohini vanquished my doubts.

Speaker 7 Her debut book, a graphic memoir called This Beautiful, Ridiculous City, affirms the enduring power of New York and the power of literature to give people the courage to cross all manner of borders.

Speaker 7 Sohini is a South Asian graphic artist who grew up in the suburbs of Calcutta, living, as she says, in a sprawling ancestral house with four generations and far too many territorial people.

Speaker 7 From a young age, she was a loner and a reader, a reader peculiarly drawn to New York stories.

Speaker 7 Everybody writes about New York with so much tenderness, even when they are sick of it, Soheny says, and so from afar, she began to read her way into New York.

Speaker 7 Years later, Sohini broke away from a long, abusive relationship with a man who she says made a room smaller just by walking into it.

Speaker 7 Staking her escape on little more than her years of reading and a modest fellowship to grad school, the wounded Sohini flew to New York.

Speaker 7 Through understated language and jolting comic-style images, Sohini tells a vivid, multi-dimensional New York story of her own.

Speaker 7 There's her Odyssey, a capsule history of modern India, and always references to books, books, books.

Speaker 7 This beautiful, ridiculous city engages with a good slice of the essential New York City literary canon, from Anne Petri to Fran Leibowitz, E. B.

Speaker 7 White to Dylan Thomas, Colson Whitehead, Nora Efron, and fellow graphic memoirist Alison Bechtel.

Speaker 7 Like all these chroniclers of the city, Sohini sometimes questions her illogical attachment to such a difficult place, wondering if I am forever doomed to love things and people whose reciprocation is fraught with contradictions.

Speaker 7 But New York, in image and reality, saved her, and her love for the city remains hardy.

Speaker 7 One New York City writer Sohini doesn't mention is Gay Talise, who's hailed, along with Norman Mailer, Joan Didian, and Tom Wolfe, as a pioneer of new journalism.

Speaker 7 Talise, now in his early 90s, has written a lot of great pieces about New York, many of which are gathered together in a new book called A Town Without Time.

Speaker 7 The very first piece Talese published in Esquire in 1960 leads off this collection. It's called New York is a City of Things Unnoticed.

Speaker 7 Among the thousands of things Talise notices are the night workers, truck drivers, cops, hacks, cleaning ladies who line up for movies in Times Square at 8 a.m.

Speaker 7 Other essays here ruminate on the oft overlooked Verizano Narrows Bridge and mobster Joe Bonanno. Worth the price of this collection alone is Talise's masterpiece, Frank Sinatra Has a Cold.

Speaker 7 This 1966 profile of old blue eyes packs the sparkle, fizz, and complexity of genuine New York seltzer.

Speaker 7 Here's Talese reading from the opening of that profile as originally heard on This American Life.

Speaker 8 Sinatra with a cold is Picasso without paint, Ferrari without fuel, only worse.

Speaker 8 For the common cold robs Sinatra of that uninsurable jewel, his voice, cutting into the core of his confidence, and it affects not only his own psyche, but also seems to cause a kind of psychosomatic nasal drip within dozens of people who work for him, drink with him, depend on him for their own welfare and stability.

Speaker 7 Just as Sohini assures us that New York still draws in dreamers, Tales reminds us that New York is already riddled with ghosts, many of them tough talking and hard drinking.

Speaker 7 Eight million stories and counting about the city, but still room for more.

Speaker 2 Maureen Corgan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed This Beautiful, Ridiculous City by Kay Sahini and A Town Without Time by Gay Tales.

Speaker 2 Coming up, writer and Dominatrix Brittany Newell talks about her new novel Softcore, which is set in San Francisco's underworld. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air Weekend.

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Speaker 2 My next guest, author Brittany Newell, loves to write about the secret worlds of others, the things people do, she says, to make their lives more bearable.

Speaker 2 Her newest novel, Softcore, takes the reader into San Francisco's underworld of dive bars, strip clubs, and BDSM dungeons, where tech bros, executives, and outcasts live out their fantasies.

Speaker 2 Ruth, the protagonist, is a stripper who unravels when her ex-boyfriend, a ketamine dealer, disappears.

Speaker 2 Ruth, known by her stripper name, Baby Blue, starts working as a professional dominatrix where she tries to fulfill the deepest desires of her clients who mostly want to talk to her about how lonely they are and the grief they carry.

Speaker 2 Brittany Newell draws from personal experience. In addition to being a writer, she is also a professional dominatrix.

Speaker 2 A graduate of Stanford University, she studied comparative literature and gender studies and wrote her debut novel, Ula, in 2017 when she was 21 years old.

Speaker 2 It's been described as the millennial Lolita. Newell has written for the New York Times, Joyland, and Playgirl.

Speaker 2 She and her wife run a monthly drag and dance party called Angels at Aunt Charlie's Lounge, which is one of San Francisco's oldest queer bars.

Speaker 2 Now, before Brittany and I get into our conversation, I want to warn you that this is an adult conversation, not appropriate for children, and we'll be talking about adult themes and topics, including sex work.

Speaker 2 With that, Brittany Newell, welcome to Fresh Air.

Speaker 5 Hi, thank you for having me. I'm over the moon.

Speaker 2 Yes, well, thank you for being here. I really enjoyed your book.
It was such a good read. And I want to know first off, how much of Soft Core is fiction and how much of it is based on real life?

Speaker 5 Oh, yeah, that's the million-dollar question.

Speaker 5 I have seen some early reviewers saying that it's a memoir, which it is definitely not. I want that to be clear, but I think it's a completely valid question.

Speaker 5 And I catch myself doing it as a reader too, like the conflation of the main character with the author. And so I, of course, have thought about this a lot and been asked this a lot.

Speaker 5 And I think the ways that it is non-fictional are sort of subtler than one might realize. Like

Speaker 5 I think the sensory details of my life and the characteristics of the people that I'm close and that I've spent a lot of time noticing and observing.

Speaker 5 I think those are always the things that end up making their way into a book, which is sort of like, I always say like the tax of dating or loving or befriending a writer is that all of these sort of like very specific, intimate, sometimes seemingly insignificant details are the things that end up being like woven into the book and and making it have like the the texture of real life.

Speaker 5 Like and in a way that it's like probably only like that person would see themselves in it when they read it and be like oh like that's that's the brand of perfume that i use yeah exactly like oh like that's my like turmeric colored bedspread right i mean I could see why knowing that your main character, Ruth, she has a master's degree.

Speaker 2 She's working in these underworlds. And like you, you are a Stanford graduate and you have a really interesting story into your foray into these worlds, which we're going to get to in just a moment.

Speaker 2 But Ruth, the protagonist in the book, she's also known as her stripper name, Baby.

Speaker 2 And one of the more powerful elements of your writing is that you not only explore what's in it for the guys that she services, you also explore outside of money what's in it for her to be a stripper and a dominatrix.

Speaker 2 How would you describe Ruth?

Speaker 5 Oh, that's a great question. I think Ruth is lonely, and it actually has made me reflect a lot on my writing in general.

Speaker 5 And I think I'm always writing about characters who are defined by their longing

Speaker 5 and motivated by trying to fill the God-shaped hole inside of them to use 12-step language. And so I think Ruth is a

Speaker 5 holy person, like H-O-L-E-Y, as perhaps we all are.

Speaker 5 Yeah, and I think she has a lot of reservations about her own lovability and also her own desirability, which maybe is one of the many reasons why she enjoys her work as a stripper and later as a dominatrix.

Speaker 5 And I think she's a very curious person, which probably would be the main ways that I think I'm like Ruth.

Speaker 5 Like, I actually think I'm very different from Ruth, but we do share that fundamental curiosity and an attraction to underworlds or shadows, maybe.

Speaker 5 I feel like she's very unafraid of things that other people might deem like seedy or grubby. I think she feels at ease in those environments or with those types of people.

Speaker 2 Well, one of the things that Ruth does throughout the book is kind of make clear that she sees herself as average. And she does this like in her description of her physicality, what she looks like.

Speaker 2 She's like the girl next door. I think that she said that she made men's mangy dreams come true.

Speaker 2 Why was it important for Ruth to be kind of an average girl with an average body in this world?

Speaker 5 Yeah, well, I think I wanted it to be real and I wanted it to be empathetic and relatable and realistic and all of these things.

Speaker 5 Like, so I think, and it makes Ruth, I think, a more like a character that we would see everywhere. And a person who,

Speaker 5 yeah, isn't this like flashing billboard image of a woman, even though in the sex work worlds, that's always, you know, what you're portraying or the role that you're stepping into.

Speaker 5 But even for the most, you know, like gorgeous woman working as a stripper or whatever, like that would always be a fantasy or a role that one is inhabiting.

Speaker 5 And I think all women, like regardless of what they look like, are actually like really good at that and are really like learned to

Speaker 5 play the role and to

Speaker 5 understand what someone wants before they understand it themselves. That's probably what makes an excellent sex worker, I think, is that

Speaker 5 almost like mind-reading empathy and the ability to shape-shift.

Speaker 5 And actually, I think think that that's another big part of like Ruth's averageness kind of being a benefit to her in these worlds is it allows her to shape-shift.

Speaker 5 And in general, she's a shapeshifter, like outside the club as well.

Speaker 2 How did you go from being a Stanford graduate to a dominatrix?

Speaker 5 Well, I guess probably the

Speaker 5 useless gender studies degree. No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 5 Right, because you did, right, you did study uh queer gender yeah exactly contemporary fiction yes yeah yeah well i think when i graduated you know i had the bizarre and like gorgeous but also very weird experience of publishing um my book you know like so i wrote it when i was i guess like 20 and then it came out uh right when i graduated so you know you know that was amazing and i think for me and still actually like the most important thing to me upon graduating was wanting to have freedom and control of my time.

Speaker 5 And once my advance from the first book rather quickly ran out, I did the usual food service jobs, bartender, waitress. And anyone who's worked in food service knows how,

Speaker 5 you know, taxing that can be like mentally and psychically.

Speaker 5 And so I think like many artists and many people, I started to despair because I felt like I was losing this control of my time and my space.

Speaker 5 And so I think like all of the decisions I made around the types of work that I would end up going into were

Speaker 5 originally driven by this desire for freedom and control of my time. And, you know, like if you can work

Speaker 5 one day of the week for $800 an hour and then have the rest of the week to write, that's the dream.

Speaker 5 That's what has.

Speaker 5 And then I think once I got into it, in addition to the freedom and control of my time,

Speaker 5 then I started to fall in love with it for

Speaker 5 the curiosities that,

Speaker 5 like how it satisfied my own curiosities and the excitement of it.

Speaker 5 And just, you know, like I'm a writer, so I'm always interested in stories. And I kind of like randomly found this job or this type of work where people are always telling you not just their stories,

Speaker 5 but they want to tell you their secrets, you know, and I love to listen. So I kind of felt almost like

Speaker 5 called to the job, you know, like as someone who

Speaker 5 wants nothing more than to be like a keeper of these masculine secrets or to be a witness to people's longings and a witness to their grief.

Speaker 5 Like it felt, you know, and not to say that I didn't have like weird sessions or rude clients.

Speaker 5 Like, of course, like, I never want to give off this impression that, you know, everything is always like rosy. Sitting down and talking, right? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay, this is so fascinating to me because one of the things in reading this book that I kept thinking about is that you, you also have to sit in this seat of non-judgment for all of the requests that come to you.

Speaker 2 Is there ever a moment where you do judge? Or

Speaker 2 where do you put yourself as far as your mental space to come to the table so that you can accept whatever, as long as you're safe, of course, whatever is being requested of you or brought to you as a fantasy?

Speaker 5 Yeah, well, I mean, of course, like as a dominatrix and a provider, I have, you know, my own limits and I have the things that I really enjoy. Like I love cross-dresser sessions.

Speaker 5 I feel like I'm the perfect person for that because I have lots of cross-dressers in my regular life too.

Speaker 5 And, you know, there's things that I don't do either because I

Speaker 5 mainly more just because I feel like I'm not good at it.

Speaker 5 But to answer your question more specifically, you know, like if someone's presenting me with a fantasy, like this disembodied fantasy, I think in general, I would like to think I'm a very open-minded person.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I don't think it's particularly hard to feel into their fantasy when

Speaker 5 the central longing or the central appetite behind the fantasy is

Speaker 5 clear to me or is laid bare.

Speaker 5 So much of the time,

Speaker 5 it might seem inaccessible or insane, like a certain fantasy, but the heart of it is

Speaker 5 more relatable or familiar than maybe people would like to admit.

Speaker 5 So yeah, I think, I guess it's, I guess it's about empathy, which, you know, I always like to say that what makes a good writer is also what makes a good dominatrix, which is empathy and curiosity and bravery.

Speaker 5 So I guess those things like all coming together make it not easy, but

Speaker 5 make it make me feel able to receive these fantasies. And I guess I think of myself, I said it earlier, but like to be a witness, you know, like to witness something and

Speaker 5 hold space for it, you know, even if it's not my particular.

Speaker 2 Has there ever been an instance where you've seen these men in real life, in day-to-day life, at the grocery store, at the post office?

Speaker 2 And if that's the case, like you just pretend, you just walk on by.

Speaker 5 Right, Right, right. Like a therapist, right? Like, I guess when your therapist sees you out in the world, they're not supposed to acknowledge you.

Speaker 5 Only once, actually, which is kind of interesting that it would only be once.

Speaker 5 And it was, I was late and walking to the dungeon to have a session with this person who was like killing time on the corner.

Speaker 5 And I remember he was wearing, you know, like the green MM? He was wearing like a green M ⁇ M t-shirt and eating a piece of pizza. No, I was eating a piece of pizza.

Speaker 5 And I remember thinking, like, oh no, this is like so like ruining his fantasy because I'm wearing like your street clothes and like wearing like my like ratty

Speaker 5 like faux fur jacket and eating pizza really hurriedly because I'm late to my session. And I remember we just like locked eyes and then I just like kept walking.

Speaker 5 And then, you know, 10 minutes later, he's at the dungeon and we didn't acknowledge it.

Speaker 2 Right, because that's part of the fantasy is is it stays what's in the dungeon stays in the dungeon.

Speaker 5 Exactly. And, you know, his fantasy of a dominatrix would probably be someone who like lives and sleeps and eats in like a full latex suit, you know? So I didn't want, I felt kind of bad.

Speaker 5 I was like, oh no, I like

Speaker 5 disrupted that fantasy for him with my pizza.

Speaker 2 You know, you're young. We kind of bask in the glow of Ruth's youth in this book.

Speaker 2 Even though she does encounter OGs, like the woman who runs

Speaker 2 this home, this house, you know, BDSM house.

Speaker 2 Is there a life cycle for this kind of work? You know, I think it's obvious, like, for stripping, for instance, but like

Speaker 2 in particular, to be a dominatrix, is there an end date?

Speaker 5 I don't think there's a particular age, but I do think that sex work in general is not something that you should plan to do forever,

Speaker 5 which again, you know, is true of many jobs.

Speaker 5 But I feel that it is so

Speaker 5 exhausting and there is like a certain amount of like emotional drainage that happens that, and you know, inevitably, it's, you know, it's also like the same thing with like, you shouldn't model forever.

Speaker 5 Well, I guess you can model forever, but you know, there, there is like athletes, right? Yeah.

Speaker 5 But, you know, it does, it does sort of change how you view yourself if you're not so careful with your boundaries.

Speaker 5 And the reality is that, like, most people start doing sex work when they're really, really young and don't have those boundaries in place.

Speaker 5 So, actually, I would say it's better to start when you're a bit older, like at least 25, when your like prefrontal cortex has developed.

Speaker 5 I mean, not that I did that, but now that I'm 30 and looking back, I'm like, actually, I think it's better to start when you're a bit older and to have a plan for your future self.

Speaker 5 I mean, you know, there are, of course, like

Speaker 5 dominatrixes of all ages, but

Speaker 5 I just think like how taxing it can be on your psychic state is something that, yeah,

Speaker 5 you should take care of yourself in that way, you know, like, because you're, you're really absorbing so many people's energies and so much vulnerability.

Speaker 5 And yeah, you know, we are therapists, but we're maybe not trained therapists. So I think sometimes those boundaries can be

Speaker 5 slipperier than we realize until it's too late.

Speaker 2 Do you know other careers that that other doms have gone to once they leave this kind of work?

Speaker 5 Well, literally like therapists. Like I know so many doms and sex workers of all of all stripes who then become so interested in therapy because they realize that that's what they've been doing.

Speaker 2 Brittany Newell, thank you so much for this book. It was such a fun read and this was such a delightful conversation.
Thank you.

Speaker 5 Thank you. I had so much fun and thank you so much for reading.

Speaker 2 Brittany Newell is the author of the new novel Softcore.

Speaker 2 Fresh Air Weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller.
Sam Brigger is our managing producer. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.

Speaker 2 Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne-Marie Baldonado, Lauren Crinzel, Monique Nazareth, Baya Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, and Anna Bauman.

Speaker 2 Our digital media producer is Molly C. V.
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