Trump's Plan For Gaza / The U.S. Military's Recruiting Crisis

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Speaker 3 This is fresh air. I am Terry Gross.
The show you're about to hear isn't the one we'd planned for today. So let me take a moment to explain.

Speaker 3 We intended to broadcast the interview I recorded yesterday about the recruiting crisis in the military and how Trump blamed it on the military's DEI programs, which is the subject of Dexter Filkins' latest article in The New Yorker.

Speaker 3 In that interview with Filkins, we also talked about how the Middle East was being reshaped by the Israel-Hamas war and the overthrow of Syria's dictator Bashar al-Assad.

Speaker 3 But last night, at a joint press conference with Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu, Trump proposed a shocking way he'd like to reshape the region.

Speaker 3 His idea is for all the Palestinians to leave Gaza, get Jordan and Egypt to take them in, while the U.S. takes ownership of Gaza and rebuilds it.
He didn't rule out sending U.S. troops into Gaza.

Speaker 3 We brought back Filkins this morning to talk about Trump's proposal.

Speaker 3 In the second half of today's show, we'll hear the interview we recorded yesterday morning about the shortage of recruits in the U.S. military and how that's leaving us vulnerable.

Speaker 3 Filkins is a staff writer for The New Yorker. He has been reporting on Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Middle East for decades, and is the author of the bestseller, The Forever War.

Speaker 3 Let's start with a clip from last night's press conference when CNN's Caitlin Collins posed this question to Trump.

Speaker 4 Just to follow up on what you were saying about the Gazans leaving Gaza, going to other countries. One, where exactly are you suggesting that they should go?

Speaker 4 And two, are you saying they should return after it's rebuilt? And if not, who do you envision living there?

Speaker 5 I envision the world, people living there, the world's people. I think you'll make that into an international, unbelievable place.
I think the potential in the Gaza Strip is unbelievable.

Speaker 5 And I think the entire world, representatives from all over the world will be there

Speaker 5 and they'll live there. Palestinians also.
Palestinians will live there. Many people will live there.
But they've tried the other and they've tried it for decades and decades and decades.

Speaker 5 It's not going to work. It didn't work.
It will never work.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 you have to learn from history. History has, you know, just can't let it keep repeating itself.
We have an opportunity to do something that could be phenomenal. And I don't want to be cute.

Speaker 5 I don't want to be a wise guy. But the Riviera of the Middle East, this could be something that could be so bad.
This could be so magnificent.

Speaker 5 But more importantly than that is the people that have been absolutely destroyed, that live there now, can live in peace in a much better situation because they're living in hell.

Speaker 5 And those people will now be able to live in peace. We'll make sure that it's done world-class.
It'll be wonderful for the people. Palestinians, Palestinians, mostly we're talking about.

Speaker 5 And I have a feeling that despite them saying no, I have a feeling that the king in Jordan and that the general, president, but that the general in Egypt will open their hearts and will give us the kind of land that we need to get this done, and people can live in harmony and in peace.

Speaker 3 Dexter Filkins, welcome to Fresh Air. What was your reaction last night when you heard

Speaker 2 the press conference?

Speaker 2 You know, it's like Trump throwing a hand grenade

Speaker 2 once again. But nah, look, he's right about certain things, right? We've tried it again and again and again.
It hasn't worked. And so, you know, he's throwing the bomb.
But

Speaker 2 no,

Speaker 2 it's not not serious.

Speaker 2 It's a cool headline.

Speaker 2 But no, it was dead before it left the building.

Speaker 3 Aaron Powell, how do you know that? Just because the world is against him,

Speaker 3 Trump can be very stubborn. And

Speaker 3 look at what he's doing to the American government. So how can you be sure that he wouldn't try it? Maybe it wouldn't work, but how can you be sure he wouldn't try to push it forward?

Speaker 2 Aaron Powell, well, I mean, it's like try. Try what? So we're basically talking about ethnically cleansing Gaza of its people.
Okay, that's one thing. You know,

Speaker 2 they tried that in Bosnia. But the other thing is, like, just look at the practicalities of it.
He's like, well, the Egyptians, you know,

Speaker 2 they'll take in the Gazans. The Egyptians don't want the Gazans.
We tried to do that when the war started in October 2023. They don't want them.
They closed the doors. Nobody wants them.

Speaker 2 You know, I think that President Trump got this idea from Jared Kushner, his son-in-law, who kind of expanded on it, you know, some time ago and said, you know, it's a great stretch of beachfront property there.

Speaker 2 We'll ship the Palestinians out into the Negev, you know, which is the desert. And so, like, did anybody ask the Palestinians?

Speaker 2 No, it's just, it's not serious. Who's going to do it? Who's going to pay for it?

Speaker 2 And in fact, as soon as he was done talking, the Saudis, who would ultimately end up financing, you know, any kind of reconstruction that there is, they just dismissed it out of hand.

Speaker 2 They said, you know, we reaffirm our support for a Palestinian state. You know, again, kind of cool cool to talk about, but I don't think

Speaker 2 it's not serious. You know, Bibi loved it, but it's not serious.

Speaker 3 Do you think Trump and Jared see this as a kind of ultra form of gentrification?

Speaker 2 You know, everybody loves the Mediterranean, but look, I mean,

Speaker 2 give Jared and give Trump credit the last time around.

Speaker 2 Jared came in, I think, not knowing very much about the Middle East, but he pulled off the Abraham Accords, which is, you know, the biggest peace deal in the Middle East since Camp David.

Speaker 2 You know, it's fresh thinking. It's like thinking outside the box.
But there's thinking outside the box, and then there's like living in fantasy land. And I think this is the latter.

Speaker 3 So with the Abraham Accords, that would have created

Speaker 3 peace and recognition.

Speaker 3 So the Saudis would officially recognize Israel. You know, there'd be an official

Speaker 3 peace between them.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 it did. I mean,

Speaker 2 not with the Saudis, but a number of other Middle Eastern countries, you know, stepped forward. Smaller ones.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the Saudis are kind of on deck.

Speaker 2 And that's sort of, you know, there's a kind of an idea of

Speaker 2 a big grand Middle Eastern peace deal. And that would involve something like a Palestinian state, the Abraham Accords, including Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 2 You know, look, there's a lot of destruction there right now, but it's also an opportunity because there's so much destruction because these really evil actors like Hamas and Hezbollah are dead in the water.

Speaker 2 And Assad and Syria, they're gone. So maybe it's an opportunity to kind of reshape the Middle East.

Speaker 2 And I think it probably is, but it's like, again, I think there's plausible, there's bold, and then there's ridiculous. And I think what we heard yesterday was, you know, the latter.
Choice C.

Speaker 3 When al-Qaeda attacked the U.S. on 9-11,

Speaker 3 the leadership said this was because of American military presence in the Middle East.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 3 even if Trump does not follow through on his plan, do you think that this will arouse terrorist groups or what's left of them to try to get back at the U.S.?

Speaker 3 And on a related note, if Trump did take steps forward in trying to implement this, what would it mean in terms of possible terrorist attacks on U.S. troops or on, you know, just American land?

Speaker 2 Aaron Powell, Jr.: Yeah, I mean, if, like, if, you know, Jared Kushner and family are building hotels

Speaker 2 on the Riviera of the Middle East,

Speaker 2 yeah, that's going to arouse resentment. Of course, it would arouse hatred.
There's a lot of hatred already. There's tons of hatred.

Speaker 2 You know, he did that press conference yesterday with B.B. Netanyahu, who the United States has armed completely.

Speaker 2 You can agree with what the Israelis did in Gaza, that it had to be done, or you can conclude that Netanyahu is a war criminal. But the fact is, we armed him, and everybody knows that.

Speaker 2 And I think earlier this week, the United States just agreed, just announced the Trump administration, they were sending a billion dollars worth of arms to Israel. So it's like, that's no mystery.

Speaker 2 Like, everybody already knows that. And so, whatever resentment there is, and I think there's quite a lot, all the Palestinians know where those guns came from.

Speaker 2 And they came from us.

Speaker 3 So, in terms of a Palestinian state, like Mike Huckabee, who is the new ambassador to Israel, doesn't even call the West Bank the West Bank.

Speaker 3 He refers to it as Judea and Samaria, which are the biblical names for that land. And he's one of the people who believes that Israel has biblical claim to the land that we call the West Bank.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 3 with him being the ambassador to Israel, what do you think that means for the future of Israel and the Palestinians?

Speaker 2 Well, it's really, really difficult. And look, this is what we're talking about right now is the world's most intractable problem.
And Trump's right.

Speaker 2 You know, we tried and tried and tried and we've failed. Or the world, you know.
So what does the future pretend? I think

Speaker 2 what's been happening, I think kind of out of view, is that as the Israelis have been prosecuting the war in Gaza, you know,

Speaker 2 after being attacked by Hamas, they've kind of

Speaker 2 pushed forward very rapidly with new settlements in the West Bank. And some of those settler groups have been attacking Palestinians and Palestinian residents and civilians.

Speaker 2 And that's been proceeding very rapidly. And so, and because the people around Bibi who basically keep him in power, it's a coalition government.
That's what they want.

Speaker 2 And that's their price for keeping him in power, which is basically unfettered authority to do what they want to do in the West Bank. And that's been happening very rapidly.

Speaker 2 So it's a fair question in 2025: Is a Palestinian state even viable anymore?

Speaker 2 Or is it just kind of a pipe dream that

Speaker 2 everybody just kind of

Speaker 2 pays homage to?

Speaker 2 But is it essentially a pipe dream? Like it's not going to happen anymore.

Speaker 2 And that is what has been happening on the West Bank, which is they're trying to make it impossible.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 by flooding the West Bank with more settlers. And so

Speaker 2 it just makes a settlement every day

Speaker 2 more difficult. It makes the formation of a Palestinian state, which

Speaker 2 has been or had been American policy for many, many years, which is to support a homeland for the Palestinians, and that ultimately that is the best

Speaker 2 that gives us the best chance to have a lasting peace in the region, is to give them a homeland. So every day that becomes less and less possible under the current government of Nyan Netanyahu.

Speaker 3 There seems to be some controversy over whether Trump was musing or whether this was planned in advance.

Speaker 2 Well, exactly. Exactly.
And we don't know.

Speaker 2 We don't know. Maybe this is all a big distraction, you know, as Elon Musk dismantles the government or as Bibi prepares some big surprise for Iran.
Like we, we

Speaker 2 may, maybe we'll find out. But my own sense, because we all know Trump.
I mean,

Speaker 2 he did this throughout his entire first term. Somebody asks him a question, and then he gives an outrageous answer.
And then, you know, the press corps dutifully loses its mind and

Speaker 2 kind of, you know, writes about it and writes about it and talks about it and talks about it. And then it goes away.
And like we've seen this before.

Speaker 3 And on a related note,

Speaker 3 the CIA, this is part of Elon Musk's plan to save money and change government.

Speaker 3 Buyouts have been offered to, I think, everybody in the CIA. And we need the CIA more than ever now, don't we?

Speaker 2 Yeah, let's see what happens over there.

Speaker 2 But CIA is a giant place. They have an enormous budget.
Let's see what happens.

Speaker 2 And like, are there areas of the CIA that could probably be run more efficiently? Probably.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 3 that's not the plan right now. The plan is like, you can all leave if you want.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, let's see.
Yeah, it's a radical proposal. Let's see how many people take it.

Speaker 2 But I think, yeah, I mean, I mean, when you get a press conference like we did yesterday, it is a great distraction from the other stuff that's going on of, you know, kind of Elon, you know, taking USAID, putting it in the wood chipper.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a great way to change the subject while this other stuff is going on that we ought to be talking about.

Speaker 3 So yesterday in a part of our interview, which we'll hear that interview a little later, we spent some time talking about how the Middle East has been reshaped because of the Israel-Hamas war and because of the Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad having been overthrown.

Speaker 3 And everything that we said yesterday is a little out of date now, as of last night. So

Speaker 3 can we take that one again? How do you think the Middle East is being remade right now?

Speaker 2 I think we're kind of still in the same place, which is

Speaker 2 the Iranian project, this grand Iranian project, the Shiite Crescent, which consisted of, even though Hamas is Sunni Muslim, but it consisted of Hamas, Hezbollah, Assad

Speaker 2 in Syria. It's gone.
It's been destroyed.

Speaker 2 And again, that was a grand, multi-billion dollar, credibly ambitious project to basically take over these states in the Middle East with Iranian allies. It's dead.
So

Speaker 2 it's an incredible opportunity,

Speaker 2 not just for the individual states, like whether that's Lebanon or Syria or Gaza.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 it's an opportunity to kind of stand back and say,

Speaker 2 is there a possibility here of a kind of grander, bigger,

Speaker 2 all-in-one peace deal?

Speaker 2 And I think that's what, you know, there's been a lot of conversation about that.

Speaker 2 It's the Middle East. It's really hard to pull anything off there.
But it's like when you talk about bringing Saudi Arabia into the Abraham Accords, and then

Speaker 2 whatever idea ultimately comes in place

Speaker 2 in Gaza. And like, you know, there's a lot of discussion on Gaza.
Like, what is to be done with what is now

Speaker 2 a vast stretch of ruin and misery?

Speaker 2 What can be done? And so

Speaker 2 there's a lot of, I mean, Trump's plan is one of many, or Trump's idea is one of many. But it's got to be rebuilt.
The people are going to need a place to live. There's no government in Gaza.

Speaker 2 The people that were running Gaza are dead for the most part. And so, yeah, like that's all got to be re-envisioned or reimagined and then kind of implemented.

Speaker 2 And it's going to take a really long time. But

Speaker 2 it's an opportunity because the most malevolent actor in the Middle East for the past 30 years has been Iran.

Speaker 2 And Iran has, Iran, they're still standing there in Tehran, but they're on really weak legs.

Speaker 3 What's left of the

Speaker 3 terrorist groups, the offshoots of al-Qaeda, ISIS?

Speaker 3 What's left of those, and are they

Speaker 3 still a threat to Israel or to the U.S.?

Speaker 2 Aaron Powell, yes. They're still out there.
There's a lot of bad guys out there.

Speaker 2 One of the first things that

Speaker 2 Trump did as president, he just did it last week, was order airstrikes airstrikes against ISIS in Syria. There's tons of ISIS still out there.
And

Speaker 2 everybody's been watching him really closely because there's effectively no government in Syria right now. I mean, literally,

Speaker 2 Ahmed Al-Shara,

Speaker 2 the leader, the sort of leader of the new leader of Syria, like he gave an interview to The Economist like a week or so ago, and it was remarkable.

Speaker 2 They found him, you know, or they went to meet him

Speaker 2 sitting in Assad's old palace, which is, you know, six or seven times the size of the White House. And there was basically no one there.
I mean, it was like him and five other guys.

Speaker 2 And then there was like a room where they went to pray. And it's like, there's nothing there.
And the lights aren't on. So

Speaker 2 there's a lot of space there for bad guys to run around.

Speaker 2 I think the concern, ISIS has been kind of bottled up in the desert for a long time, you know, ever since Obama and then Trump, you know,

Speaker 2 I think

Speaker 2 very effectively, you know, destroyed them. Or not destroyed, because they're still out there, but they've been infiltrating back into, you know, Damascus and other places.

Speaker 2 And so I think there's a lot of concern that they're going to start to move and they're going to take advantage of the kind of big open space and the lack of government authority in Syria.

Speaker 2 And so that's a real concern. And then there's like, you know, the

Speaker 2 group that took over Syria was just part of a coalition of a bunch of other armed groups. Those armed groups are still around.
They don't necessarily, I mean, some have been quite clear about it.

Speaker 2 They don't buy into the kind of the idea that Al-Sharra is the leader. And they're like, well, what about us?

Speaker 3 Quick question to this. So Trump wants to impose maximum pressure on Iran.
Yeah, that's important.

Speaker 3 What does he want to do?

Speaker 2 Well, he wants to reimpose the really strict sanctions on Iran that were in place during his first term. And

Speaker 2 the really important piece of that is is, you know, it's all aimed at Iran's oil. And so a lot of that was lifted when Biden came back in.

Speaker 2 You know, the Biden administration had this idea that, okay, like, well, we'll try being nice.

Speaker 2 Let's see if that gets us anywhere. It didn't.

Speaker 2 The Iranian regime has been enriching uranium as fast as they possibly can. And they're, I think Trump said this yesterday, how close are they to a nuclear bomb? And he said, well, they're too close.

Speaker 2 They're very close. It's basically a turnkey at this point.
The maximum pressure campaign is going to be re-imposed. And it's going to be hard because I think

Speaker 2 they were very effective, Trump sanctions in the first term, at squeezing the Iranians.

Speaker 2 Like all their clients out in the Middle East, like Hezbollah, they weren't getting paid.

Speaker 2 It really, really hurt them. And so when the Biden administration took those off, they got kind of a shot of life.
So now they're going to try to re-impose these.

Speaker 2 I think the really hard part of this is going to be, you know, like Iran is selling a lot of oil and they're selling a lot of oil to China and China's happy to buy it.

Speaker 2 You know, they have an inexhaustible appetite for oil. Can we like call the Chinese up and go, hey, do you think you can just stop buying all that Iranian oil every day?

Speaker 2 That's going to be hard. That's going to be really hard.

Speaker 3 Dexter Filkins, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 And so next up, we're going to hear the interview we recorded yesterday based on your New Yorker article, your new New Yorker article about the shortage of recruits in the military that is leaving us kind of vulnerable.

Speaker 3 And it'd be interesting to listen to that now in the light of Trump suggesting that we send troops to Gaza after we own it and

Speaker 3 rebuild it

Speaker 3 and expel the Palestinians. So thank you very much.

Speaker 2 Thanks so much, Terry.

Speaker 3 Dexter Filkins is a staff writer for The New Yorker. After we take a short break, we'll hear the interview I recorded yesterday with him about the recruitment crisis in the U.S.

Speaker 3 military, which Trump has blamed on the military's DEI programs. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.

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Speaker 3 Now we're going to hear the interview I recorded with Dexter Filkins yesterday morning. It's about a disturbing question that the U.S.
military leaders are asking.

Speaker 3 Can our country defend itself if not enough people are willing or able to fight? They're confronting that question because the military has been unable to meet its recruitment quotas.

Speaker 3 President Donald Trump blames this on the military's DEI programs. The new Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, has declared an end to the era of DEI in the Defense Department.

Speaker 3 Filkins has been investigating the real reasons why the armed forces are becoming depleted and how the military has responded by loosening some admission standards.

Speaker 3 Filkin's new article titled The U.S. Military's Recruitment Crisis is published in The New Yorker where he's a staff writer.

Speaker 3 He's reported on the Middle East for years, covered the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and was embedded with the Marines during one of the Iraq War's most brutal battles, the Battle of Fallujah.

Speaker 3 He's the author of the bestseller, The Forever War, which won a National Book Critic Circle Award for non-fiction.

Speaker 3 So Trump and Hexeth have made eliminating DEI in the military a priority for the Defense Department. What exactly do they want to eliminate?

Speaker 3 What has the military been doing to increase diversity in the military? Aaron Powell,

Speaker 2 they've been doing a fair amount.

Speaker 2 So when Biden came in in 2021, he appoints Lloyd Austin as Secretary of Defense, former general.

Speaker 2 essentially signs an order saying set up DEI, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion across the Pentagon. And, you know, the U.S.

Speaker 2 military, this is, we're talking 3 million people, civilian and uniform. And so they set up this bureaucracy that kind of, you know, there's like required classes and stuff.

Speaker 2 They sort of don't amount to all that much, but they also do a bunch of things. You know, this stuff is so sensitive and it's so controversial.

Speaker 2 And so, for instance, the Navy did a recruiting ad by a transsexual. And

Speaker 2 I think the Navy also did an ad.

Speaker 2 Maybe it was the Army, but they also did an ad, a kind of animated ad, showing a female couple in the military kind of, you know, getting along fine and thriving in the military.

Speaker 2 And so they did stuff like that that was kind of, you know, substantively, it might not have been all that much, but it was very visible. And I think it got a lot of people's attention.

Speaker 3 You sometimes don't know how to read what people mean when they talk about DEI and what Trump means when he bans DEI.

Speaker 3 So one possible way of interpreting banning DEI in the military is,

Speaker 3 there's too many people of color, too many women in the military.

Speaker 3 They're not really competent. So let's cut down on those people.

Speaker 2 Aaron Powell, Jr.: That wasn't my sense of the motivation. I talked to a lot of people, a lot of veterans, particularly, who are really really opposed to DEI in the military.

Speaker 2 And what they typically would say is, everybody's for diversity in the military.

Speaker 2 It's that DEI essentially in practice amounts to reverse discrimination and amounts to quotas, even if that's not what it says in practice. And so,

Speaker 2 but I think, and this is important, I think whether or not the DEI in practice was what they said it was, that is a very widespread perception. And it's a, you know, it's a lot of people.

Speaker 2 And if a lot of people believe that, and a lot of people are talking about it, and a lot of people are online about it,

Speaker 2 I think there's a pretty good case to be made that that hurt recruiting in the military.

Speaker 2 Because it's just because this stuff is so hot button, it's so sensitive that, you know, immediately you lose half of America. Right.
And so it's just, it's like we live in a polarized country.

Speaker 2 And so when you mention something like DEI,

Speaker 2 a lot of backs go up.

Speaker 2 And I think that was happening here. And so I think in this case, it kind of matters less what the Pentagon was actually doing than what the perception was.

Speaker 3 Aaron Powell, give us a sense of how bad the recruiting crisis is in the military now.

Speaker 2 It's really bad.

Speaker 2 I think the worst place, the toughest place is the Navy, where, you know,

Speaker 2 you've got to go out to sea for months at a time.

Speaker 2 But for instance,

Speaker 2 some huge number of ships and submarines in the Navy, in the U.S. Navy,

Speaker 2 can't go out to sea for lack of maintenance. It's

Speaker 2 just an amazing number.

Speaker 2 I think it was like 40% of the attack submarines are like in port because they're waiting for maintenance. And what somebody explained to me

Speaker 2 Former naval officer who works in a think tank studies the stuff in Washington said that typically what's happening is the Navy is so undermanned that they're sending ships out to sea without enough sailors on them.

Speaker 2 And what that means is the priority is to put sailors on deck. So everybody on deck to your job.

Speaker 2 And what that means is that they're not below deck, maintaining the engines, maintaining the ship, maintaining the computers.

Speaker 2 And so the maintenance is slipping on the ships and on the subs because they don't have enough people. So I think for the Navy, the Navy is just, their problems are gigantic.

Speaker 2 I mean, I think they've really had to lower some standards to get people to come in.

Speaker 3 Aaron Powell, but they don't have enough ships either, right? Aaron Ross Powell,

Speaker 2 they don't have enough ships to do everything that they want to do. And

Speaker 2 that's really the big question, right? So since 1945,

Speaker 2 the United States has basically taken upon itself world leadership. And that means, among other things, kind of policing the sea lanes, the international sea lanes, which basically keep

Speaker 2 international commerce kind of flowing. The Navy, for instance, has a goal of having 75 service ships at sea all the time.
They can't meet that number.

Speaker 2 And they can't meet it for any number of reasons. I mean, we have about 300 ships in the Navy.
Used to be close to 700 ships in the Navy at the end of the Cold War.

Speaker 2 So they don't have enough ships to do the things that they want to do.

Speaker 2 And so it raises this really large question, which is, if we don't have the armed forces to support the global commitments that we've made, do we make the military bigger or do we scale back the commitments?

Speaker 2 And, you know, that's the really big question, the hardest one to answer.

Speaker 3 Aaron Powell, Jr.: And the really big question is, are we more vulnerable as a result of this?

Speaker 2 Aaron Powell, I think the moment we're in right now, 2025, if you kind of look at the history of the 20th century, to me looks

Speaker 2 more and more like 1938. Every day, there's

Speaker 2 all these authoritarian powers, China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, who increasingly are working together. They're North Korean troops fighting for Russia against Ukraine.

Speaker 2 They're all cooperating with one another. And they are, in the kind of classic sense, revisionist powers.
They do not support the status quo.

Speaker 2 They don't support international law as we know it, which is

Speaker 2 basically the edifice of kind of world order for the past 75 years. They're pushing against that.
They ignore these things all the time.

Speaker 2 You see the Chinese ships that are suspected of cutting the undersea cables. They're pushing everywhere.

Speaker 2 The most obvious places are Ukraine, where Russia has been at war there for three years, and Taiwan, where the Chinese refuse to recognize the sovereignty of Taiwan, which is an American ally, a vibrant democracy in one of the world's most important economies.

Speaker 2 And so it's a really big question.

Speaker 2 What do we need to kind of hold all that together? And is it just up to us?

Speaker 2 But I think the international order, as we know it, you know, such as it is, is under more stress than it's been at any time, I think, in the last 75 years.

Speaker 3 Well, I think I have to reintroduce you here. My guest is Dexter Filkins.
His new article in The New Yorker is called The U.S. Military's Recruitment Crisis.
We'll be right back. This is fresh air.

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Speaker 3 So you found that the military actually is lowering its standards, and that's not because of DEI. That's because so many would-be recruits are very overweight,

Speaker 3 or they can't pass the aptitude test. You visited the Future Soldiers Training Course at Fort Jackson in South Carolina, and your piece starts with

Speaker 3 a bunch of overweight people who can't do five push-ups but really want to enlist. So

Speaker 3 can you just talk a little bit about the problem that the military is having when a fair amount of would-be recruits just

Speaker 2 can't pass the tests.

Speaker 3 don't fit the requirements.

Speaker 2 Aaron Powell, the Navy has definitely had to lower the requirements. I think what the

Speaker 2 future soldier training course represents is kind of a

Speaker 2 pre-boot camp preparation course. So there's all yeah, there's all these young people 19, 20 years old, and they want to enlist.
But then I went down to Fort Jackson and you kind of see it.

Speaker 2 And I started reporting the story thinking it was going to be mostly about the military. But it's, for me, it ended up being mostly about America.

Speaker 2 You know, America has like, what, like a 40% obesity rate. Well, you can see it there at Fort Jackson.
And America's got a lot of failing schools. You can see that at Fort Jackson.

Speaker 2 And so Fort Jackson is sort of the place where the U.S. military comes face to face with America's youth, such as it is in 2025.
For instance, yeah, they're overweight.

Speaker 2 And so the military's got pretty strict weight standards. They're not really onerous.

Speaker 2 You don't have to be super ripped to be in the military. It helps.
But they're strict about making them.

Speaker 2 So if you come in and you're, I think it's if you're less than 10% overweight, you can can get into this course and they will try to, they'll try to take the weight off of you.

Speaker 2 And so you have three months to basically lose the weight to get under the Army standard. And the same goes with the aptitude test.

Speaker 2 So like you go to these classes and they're basically, you know, I hate to say it, but they're basically teaching the test.

Speaker 2 So, you know, you do, you do your math problems and your and your reading comprehension over and over and over. And then you take the aptitude test.
And if you pass, you can get in.

Speaker 2 But they're trying to hold the standards where they are. I think what's remarkable is that there are so many people out there that can't meet these minimum standards.

Speaker 3 You described one woman who was told, first you have to lose 100 pounds, then come back and see if you qualify for this training program.

Speaker 2 Can you talk about her? Yeah, she was remarkable. Her name was Savannah Thorne.
I think she's 20 years old. And she's from a little town in Georgia.
And I met her in the weight loss camp. And

Speaker 2 she was great. She was smart.
She was curious. She was super energetic.
And she kind of told me her story. And I think she said she came from this pretty broken family.

Speaker 2 I think her father was in prison. Her mom had had a bunch of drug problems.
She'd been raised by her grandparents. She went to a recruiting station at age 19, weighing 305 pounds.

Speaker 2 And she said at one point, I spent most of my childhood watching, playing Call of Duty and

Speaker 2 eating fast food. And the recruiter looked at her and said, you know, thinking he'd never see her again, lose 100 pounds and I'll talk to you.
So she went out and lost 100 pounds.

Speaker 2 And so she came back to the recruiting station a year later, weighing 200 pounds. And

Speaker 2 they took her into the course at Fort Jackson to get down to, I think she had to get down to like 165 or something, like 165 pounds or something like that.

Speaker 2 So they, they, they took the last 35 pounds off of her. And so when I saw her, she was like, she said, I have three more days

Speaker 2 and I got one more pound to lose. And if I don't lose that one more pound, I'm out.
They're going to send me home, but I'm going to make it. And

Speaker 2 she did. She made it.
And

Speaker 2 she's in boot camp right now.

Speaker 3 What kind of track record does this program have in terms of weight loss? Do they track the people afterwards to see if they put the weight back on or if they stay at the qualifying standard?

Speaker 2 So far, I think the program's fair say the program's working. It's definitely working in terms of numbers.
25% of the Army's recruits go through either the weight loss clinic or the aptitude course.

Speaker 2 This year, the year we're in right now, they're projecting it's going to be 30%

Speaker 2 of their recruits. Do they keep the weight off? I think they have to.

Speaker 2 You know, unless the standards get relaxed, they have to pass a physical test and a weight test twice a year. Now that like the Navy, Navy, again, the Navy's really suffering.

Speaker 2 The Navy's kind of, they've kind of played around with that standard as well.

Speaker 2 You know, they've kind of like recently they wiped the slate clean and said, anybody who failed to make weight, you know, we're going to forget about that.

Speaker 2 And so if you, if you typically, if you fail to make weight two times in a row, you're out. And so

Speaker 2 at least on paper so far, it's working. Like the kids who have lost the weight and passed the tests, the aptitude tests, they're, you know, they're hanging in there.
Aaron Powell,

Speaker 3 so you said the Navy has lowered its standards. What other ways has it lowered the standards?

Speaker 2 Well, the big way

Speaker 2 is, so you take this test, it's called like the Armed Forces

Speaker 2 Aptitude Test or something like that, qualifications test. And it's basically like a kind of miniature SAT or whatever.

Speaker 2 And you take that test and then

Speaker 2 they score you, you get a score, and then they rank you. And then they rank you in one of five categories, depending on how well you did.

Speaker 2 And so, you know, from one being the top to five where you can't get in, you know, like you're out. You know, these are people that scored really low.

Speaker 2 The category four

Speaker 2 is like the lowest category that you can score in and still get in. And so what the, there used to be a rule at the Pentagon that said

Speaker 2 no service can take more than 4%

Speaker 2 of its recruits in category four, no more.

Speaker 2 Well, they just had to relax that rule in 2022 because they weren't getting enough recruits. And so I think last year,

Speaker 2 20% of the Navy's recruits are category four.

Speaker 2 So they drop, and that means essentially that

Speaker 2 you're basically below average in your score. And it's not really an intelligence test.
I mean, I think they kind of claim that it is, but it's more of like an achievement test. But

Speaker 2 you're basically under 50th percentile. So the Navy has definitely had to drop its standards to

Speaker 2 keep people coming in.

Speaker 3 The military has loosened other standards, including if you have a history of asthma, you can qualify as long as you've abstained from medications for at least a year.

Speaker 3 And then there's the tattoo, the tattoo issue.

Speaker 2 That's important.

Speaker 3 Explain the tattoo issue and how that's changed.

Speaker 2 Well, they used to be really strict about it. You know, you just couldn't have any kind of visible tattoo on your body.
But also,

Speaker 2 as it was explained to me,

Speaker 2 there's a whole range of prohibited tattoos. So you can't have a gang tattoo.
You can't have like a

Speaker 2 white supremacist tattoo.

Speaker 2 You have these, you're gone.

Speaker 2 And so they've had to modify those,

Speaker 2 not as regards

Speaker 2 gang tattoos or white supremacist tattoos, but you can have, and you know, it's just because so many people have tattoos now, but like you can have a, I think you're allowed to have like a small tattoo in your neck, like behind your ear.

Speaker 2 You can have one on your hand that's kind of visible.

Speaker 2 So to me, what was interesting about the tattoo question is that now Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth has a couple of tattoos, which I think he might have been, it was very hard to track this down, but he you know, he was in the Army and the Army Reserves and the National Guard for a long time.

Speaker 2 So it's not exactly clear when he got his tattoos, but he's got two tattoos that I think if you tried to get in now with those tattoos, they wouldn't let you in.

Speaker 2 Or if you got them when you're in, they'd throw you out. Because they're associated with white supremacist

Speaker 2 groups. And so, for instance, when

Speaker 2 I think Hagseth was going to

Speaker 2 be present, his unit was going to

Speaker 2 help kind of keep order at President Biden's inauguration,

Speaker 2 one of his fellow soldiers complained about those tattoos, and Hexeth was ordered to stay home.

Speaker 2 So he's like right on the edge on those.

Speaker 2 Our own Secretary of Defense.

Speaker 3 What are their tattoos and what do they signify?

Speaker 2 One is the Jerusalem Cross and the other is this kind of saying, Deuce Vault, which the latter I think was popular in the

Speaker 2 saying was popular in the Crusades.

Speaker 2 But they're associated they've been associated with kind of Christian nationalist and or white supremac groups.

Speaker 3 Aaron Powell, so has Pete Heckseth said anything about those tattoos?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think he said they're just Christian symbols. You know, they're harmless.
Aaron Powell,

Speaker 3 you know, in talking about the

Speaker 3 difficulty of recruiting, Trump and Hexeth seem to want to bar women from serving in combat. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Speaker 3 But isn't that counterproductive if you want to increase the ranks of people in combat?

Speaker 3 And like flying planes, that counts as combat, doesn't it? Like if you're flying a warplane?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Well,

Speaker 2 let's see how far Exeth gets down that road. I think he'll probably fail.
But yeah, like I talked in the story, she's quoted in the story. I talked to this

Speaker 2 female F-18 pilot, and you know, boy, she was impressive.

Speaker 2 You know, an F-18 is the, they're based on an aircraft carrier. And, like, she was, you know, she was like a top gun and really impressive.

Speaker 2 You definitely want her, definitely want her with you if you're flying into battle. But

Speaker 2 I think the

Speaker 2 look, I think the military wants everybody they can get. I think there's a debate about, you know, and this is kind of, this is normal and natural, but it's like, you know,

Speaker 2 we'll take women if we don't have to relax our physical standards to do it. Like if you can do the push-ups and you can do the pull-ups

Speaker 2 and you're female, we don't care. You can come into the combat unit.
But if you can't, you can't. Most women can't.

Speaker 2 But I think, yeah, Hezke has basically said, yeah, I want them all out.

Speaker 2 My guess is

Speaker 2 he's going to fly right into a storm if he tries to do that.

Speaker 3 Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dexter Filkins.
His new article in The New Yorker is titled The U.S. Military's Recruitment Crisis.

Speaker 3 We'll be right back after a short break. This is fresh air.

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Speaker 3 One of the things the military is doing now to get more recruits is offering pretty impressive incentives.

Speaker 3 What are some of the incentives being offered now, both financial and other kind of incentives?

Speaker 2 There's a lot on offer. It's,

Speaker 2 you know, they'll, in most cases or in many cases,

Speaker 2 they'll pay your student loans off. If you join, they will send you to college if you want to go.

Speaker 2 They'll send you to med school. They'll send you to dental school.

Speaker 2 20 years in the military, and then you can retire.

Speaker 2 So imagine that if you're 39 years old or 38 years old, you can retire at half salary.

Speaker 2 You can qualify for subsidized mortgages. You can qualify for subsidized childcare.
It's a good system. I mean, it really really is.
I mean,

Speaker 2 you got to give up a lot of your freedom to join the military. But if you're willing to do that, they will definitely take care of you.

Speaker 3 Aaron Powell, personnel pay and benefits are now about 40% of the defense budget. Do you think that that will be cut?

Speaker 2 I don't think they can. I mean,

Speaker 2 I don't think they can because

Speaker 2 they're

Speaker 2 pay a lot more than they used to, and they're paying really big bonuses. I mean, I think I talked to

Speaker 2 and this is how hard it is for the military. So I had a long conversation with

Speaker 2 a submarine commander, a nuclear submarine commander.

Speaker 2 He runs a nuclear reactor that's on board the submarine.

Speaker 2 And I can't remember if the missiles that were on that submarine were also nuclear, but he's running a nuclear reactor.

Speaker 2 He can go out in the private sector and make way more than he's making in the military. And I interviewed him.
He was was interesting because he decided to stay in.

Speaker 2 They gave him the Navy to keep him, to re-enlist for five or six years. They gave him, I think, a $200,000 or $250,000 signing bonus, like spread out over it.

Speaker 2 It was like $50,000 a year for five years. extra, like on top of his pay.
So it's like, it sounds like, you know, it sounds like the NFL, but

Speaker 2 if you get a signing bonus, and they're paying, you know,

Speaker 2 you can be 18 years old or 17 years old, sign up for the military, and you get $50,000 cash in hand.

Speaker 2 And if you're 17 years old, that's a lot of money. So

Speaker 2 they're laying out the money to get people to join. And that's why personnel costs are so expensive, because

Speaker 2 there's no draft. And so

Speaker 2 the military is like in the private sector competing for, you know, competing for talent. And so when you're, you know, the military is getting more complicated every day.

Speaker 2 I mentioned the example of nuclear reactors that you have to be able to run. And then there's, you know, there's cyber warfare, there's cyber defense, there's radar systems.

Speaker 2 Stuff is super complicated. And those are smart people and they, and they have to be really smart.
And so the military literally goes to places like MIT to recruit people.

Speaker 2 And so they're competing with, you know, they're competing with companies that could pay a ton of money. And so they try to offer, you you know, like various, you know, I'll give you a bonus.

Speaker 2 Well, you know, you can retire in 20 years and all that. But I think it's fair to say the thing that they, the one thing they can offer that no one else can offer is adventure.

Speaker 2 And so, you know, like I was talking to the F-18 pilot and she was saying, yeah, I love my job. You know, I'm a carrier pilot.

Speaker 2 So, and I fly an F-18 and I can fly, you know, 1,500 miles an hour and

Speaker 2 can't get that anywhere else, you know, or the submarine commander I talked to, he said, look, I'm working with some of the smartest people in the world that are running this submarine force.

Speaker 2 And he's like, I'm not a cubicle guy. You know,

Speaker 2 I want to be out there. And

Speaker 2 that's what the Army and the Navy and the Air Force can do for it.

Speaker 3 Well, Dexter Filkins, thank you so much for talking with us and for coming back to the show. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 Terry, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 Dexter Filkins' new article titled The U.S. Military's Recruitment Crisis is published published in The New Yorker where he's a staff writer.

Speaker 3 The magazine is celebrating its 100th anniversary this year.

Speaker 3 Tomorrow on Fresh Air, our guest will be writer and dominatrix Brittany Newell.

Speaker 3 Her new novel, Softcore, explores the underworld of San Francisco's dive bars, strip clubs, and BDSM dungeons where tech bros, executives, and outcasts live out their fantasies. Hope you'll join us.

Speaker 3 Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.

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