Who Faked My Cheese?

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Speaker 11 Hi, I'm Chris, and I love cheese in any shape or form.

Speaker 12 All of the cheese as well is the kind that we eat. We eat cow's cheese and goat cheese and hard and soft and aged and funky and blue.
I like cheddar sharp, extra sharp.

Speaker 15 I love cheese. I like it because it's creamy and it also has a little bit of a tartness, acidity to it, and it's just really yummy.

Speaker 16 I think one of the most important aspects of cheese is that it is delicious.

Speaker 17 Oh my gosh, the whole experience of high-end cheese, the beautiful platter, the crackers, the glass of wine, just reaching over there and just taking, you know, unctuous bites of all these different types of cheese.

Speaker 18 I am a heavy cheese lover. I am a vegetarian with vegan leaning tendencies and I'm one member of the team that is holding out for a really good cheese to take me all the way vegan.

Speaker 19 Nikki, my friend's daughter, said to me last summer, Auntie Cynthia, I could never be a vegan because I love cheese. Lucine, I'm right there with you.

Speaker 21 You, me, her, and the majority of the universe.

Speaker 25 In fact, here at Gastropod HQ, we love cheese so much that this is our second cheese focus episode.

Speaker 19 And as you just pointed out, this is indeed Gastropod, the podcast that looks at food through the lens of science and history. I'm Cynthia Graeber.

Speaker 28 And I'm Nicola Twilley.

Speaker 6 And there are no prizes for guessing what today's episode is all about.

Speaker 19 Cheese. Today we're exploring an aspect of cheese that we didn't get to in our first cheese episode.
What is it that makes cheese so friggin' amazing? What's the science behind cheese's magic?

Speaker 4 The meltiness, the texture, the sharpness, and funk, and creamy mouth-coating awesomeness.

Speaker 33 Turns out there are scientific explanations for them all.

Speaker 19 I know we say this frequently, but I'm already hungry. Talking about cheese does that to me every time.

Speaker 22 Once again, a lot of cheese was consumed during the making of this episode.

Speaker 34 And some non-cheese.

Speaker 19 And that's because the other major question we're tackling this episode is, why is it so hard to make a good cheese substitute? What are the challenges and who's taking them on?

Speaker 39 And what do their cheese substitutes actually taste like?

Speaker 19 So if we haven't already made it clear, we love cheese. In fact, when we were on our insane reporting trip last summer, we spent hours one morning watching parmesan being made.

Speaker 19 Toni Mazzaglia was there with us, and she also translated what the white-haired Italian cheesemaker told her he was doing.

Speaker 40 And the milk is just pouring out of this.

Speaker 19 It's really

Speaker 19 cold. It's like a really big hot tub for milk.

Speaker 5 I would like to swim around in that, actually.

Speaker 13 I would totally swim around in this.

Speaker 6 Honestly, we were all a little delirious because it was very early in the morning.

Speaker 31 Tony had driven us to just outside Bologna on the road to Modna to a school that teaches aspiring Parmesan makers how to turn fresh milk into glorious, glorious cheese.

Speaker 5 580 liters of milk from about 50 cows.

Speaker 19 The first step was to take that fresh milk, it was so fresh that we saw it arrive in the truck at 7 a.m. and to pour it into huge copper tubs and heat it up.

Speaker 5 First we raise it to temperature

Speaker 40 to 33

Speaker 5 Celsius.

Speaker 5 We're in the first phase right now which is raising the temperature which will go up to 33 degrees Celsius. But he basically said to me stop asking questions I'm going to tell you everything.

Speaker 41 So I just let him talk.

Speaker 44 The raw ingredient the milk itself, is extremely important.

Speaker 37 For real parmesan like this, the cheesemaker has to use raw milk from local cows that have only been fed on grass.

Speaker 16 So what is milk? In the traditional sense of the word, milk is a fluid that mammals produce to nourish their newborns.

Speaker 19 Kamtha Shelke is a food scientist. She runs a company called Corvis Blue and she teaches at Johns Hopkins University.

Speaker 19 She says, you can't talk about why cheese is so awesome without talking about why milk is so awesome.

Speaker 16 So it's a concentrate of nutrients and it is produced to nourish her young. So these nutrients are very, very important for making cheese.
So it's a sugar, lactose, fat, and protein.

Speaker 16 And then the rest of it is just simply water with a number of different salts, etc.

Speaker 22 Back in the Italian countryside, this precious milk was heating up in the copper hot tub.

Speaker 46 We are still watching the milk!

Speaker 6 Then the parmesan makers added a bucket full of whitish liquid.

Speaker 39 They told us it was whey that they'd saved from yesterday's bunch of cheese.

Speaker 6 The whey is acidic from all the lactic acid bacteria in it.

Speaker 40 It smells like really ripe milk. This would be the stage where I'd be like, I should probably throw it this way now.

Speaker 19 That would definitely be a mistake in this stage. What they're actually doing is using that whey, the culture, to make the milk more acidic.
This helps prepare the milk for the next stage.

Speaker 19 That's when the cheesemaker adds rennet, which is an enzyme that comes from an animal's stomach and makes the milk curdle.

Speaker 19 It's actually, and kind of weirdly, just like what happens in an animal's stomach.

Speaker 16 When a baby drinks this milk, the baby's system, digestive system, produces an enzyme to begin the digestion. That's exactly what we're doing when we make cheese.

Speaker 28 This is something I'd really never thought about, but when cheesemakers make the milk acidic and add rennet, they are literally recreating the conditions in a calf's stomach.

Speaker 21 A baby cow turns its mother's milk into soft cheese inside its stomach.

Speaker 22 Not Not for the pleasure of eating cheese, obviously, but because cheese passes through their digestive system more slowly than milk, it gives the calf more time to absorb all its nutrients.

Speaker 19 And to continue to blow your mind, this is also just what happens in human babies' stomachs. Human babies are also making soft cheese in their bellies to help with nutrition.

Speaker 21 Think of that next time you clean up baby vomit.

Speaker 19 I'm really starting to get a whole new appreciation for baby vomit right now, but let's get back to parmesan. The cheesemaker adds rennet as a coagulant.

Speaker 6 When you see this happen, it looks like a magic trick. The milk hardens into solid lumps in front of your eyes.

Speaker 23 But of course, it's not magic.

Speaker 22 It's got some very specific, well-understood science behind it.

Speaker 37 It's all to do with a thing called a mice cell.

Speaker 18 The mice cell is like a glob of proteins. And they've got a very specific structure, and it's what makes milk science so exciting and so interesting is the structure of these proteins.

Speaker 19 Maria Chavez is the executive director of a community biotech lab called BioCurious and a member of the Real Vegan Cheese Project.

Speaker 22 She told us that micelles are basically little teams of protein molecules.

Speaker 34 The protein that we care about when it comes to cheese is called casein.

Speaker 16 We've got a few wonder proteins out in nature, and casein is definitely one of them.

Speaker 19 There's really nothing else like it in nature.

Speaker 21 And in fact, there are four different kinds of these awesome casein molecules in milk floating around in micelle gangs.

Speaker 26 And one of the types of casein has these little tails that attract water molecules.

Speaker 22 In fact, this is what makes milk a liquid in the first place. Without this special casein micelle structure, the water and protein and fats would all separate.
So it's what makes milk milk.

Speaker 18 And it's the magic sauce that makes cheese cheese.

Speaker 18 And what makes cheese cheese is that something in our stomachs, chymosin, which is the enzyme in renance, cuts off those tails on the kappa casein and then these micelles actually start sticking to each other and And that's what a cheese curd is: is those tails being cut off of those proteins and sticking to each other like sticky balls.

Speaker 8 And those sticky balls are curds.

Speaker 19 To quickly go over this, chymosin is the main enzyme that's in rennet. Those words are often used interchangeably.

Speaker 19 And when you add rennet to milk, then those little micelles can no longer do that amazing job of making milk milk. Their tails can't hold on to the water because they've been cut off.

Speaker 19 So now the micelles and the casein in those micelles stick together. And as Maria says, we can actually see the casein clumping together as curds.

Speaker 5 He's putting his hand and he's feeling around. Yeah, you can see it's gotten to be chunky underneath the surface of the milk mouth.

Speaker 22 Supposedly, these Parmesan makers have the softest hands in all of Italy.

Speaker 22 Our guy had been making cheese for 51 years, swirling his hands around in this acidic, enzyme-y milk bath for hours every morning.

Speaker 19 As the curds and whey were separating, the cheesemaker was heating the copper vats up a little more to 55 degrees Celsius or 131 degrees Fahrenheit.

Speaker 19 We've been talking about the importance of casein in milk becoming cheese, but as the milk gets heated and broken up, a lot of other things are going on with the other ingredients.

Speaker 19 The sugars are starting to cook, the fats are getting turned inside out.

Speaker 55 What I will say is that the smell has moved on from a cheesy,

Speaker 6 cheesy milk smell to like the milk sugars is starting to caramelize, so you're starting to get like a tiny caramel note, don't you think?

Speaker 40 Well we can tell that the fat's breaking apart because it's turning more yellow.

Speaker 6 I hadn't had breakfast so by this point I was pretty much ready to dive into the copper tub.

Speaker 22 Finally our cheesemaker decided the curds were ready.

Speaker 19 And here comes the cheesecloth. Look Tony, it's a cheesecloth.

Speaker 6 Whoa, that is so cool.

Speaker 19 The wedge of curds is rising out of the water.

Speaker 19 And it's all kind of knitted together at this point.

Speaker 54 It looks like a giant sponge, doesn't it?

Speaker 19 Exactly.

Speaker 4 That whirring sound?

Speaker 22 That's the motor that's raising the rod that this heavy cheesecloth full of curds is tied to.

Speaker 55 It's pulling it really slowly out of the copper tub.

Speaker 19 The parmesan is in its own baby hammock.

Speaker 6 Looks like the stork just brought it.

Speaker 46 Little Parmesan baby in there.

Speaker 46 Then they cut the one big Parmesan baby into two cheeses.

Speaker 43 All of this for two wheels of cheese.

Speaker 19 Two monster wheels, though. I could probably dine out on one of those wheels for more than a year.

Speaker 40 He's caressing it.

Speaker 5 His wife says

Speaker 5 he caresses the cheese forms more than he caresses her.

Speaker 19 As the cheesemaker caresses and forms the Parmesan round, he's also pressing out extra liquid with the help of a large wooden weight and helping the curd stick together even more.

Speaker 24 And then the baby cheeses get put in a special cheese elevator and lowered into a brining pool.

Speaker 55 They stay there for nearly a month.

Speaker 44 All that salt helps control which microbes are getting busy in the cheese, plus it firms up the proteins, which helps harden up those soft baby cheeses to get them closer to the parmesan we know and love.

Speaker 19 Next stop to age the cheese, a cheese cave. So that was our next step too.

Speaker 34 But don't picture an actual cave.

Speaker 26 It was really more of a refrigerated room with lots of wooden shelves for the rounds of parmesan to sit on and grow old together.

Speaker 19 That tapping sound wasn't just us playing around with these large drums of cheese. The cheesemakers tap them all the time there.

Speaker 19 They listen to to check if there's a problem, like to hear if there's an air bubble. And these experts can also tell how well-formed the rind is by the sound it makes.

Speaker 19 They can hear when the cheese is almost ready to sell.

Speaker 22 For parmesan, what's happening while it sits on the shelf, getting flipped and tapped for two or three years, is that the cheese is losing moisture, the proteins are moving around and forming a crystal structure, and the salt is penetrating very, very slowly all the way through the cheese.

Speaker 55 Basically, lots of good stuff.

Speaker 19 But that really hard, grainy, delicious, super umami end result, the parmesan many of you have in your fridges right now, that's only one of the bazillions of kinds of cheeses out there.

Speaker 19 Some are gooey, some are hard but squeaky, some are hard but smooth and not grainy, some are soft and spreadable, some have holes, some are covered with mold, others have mold rippling through the cheese.

Speaker 19 And really, most of that variety that makes solidified milk into the fabulous wealth of cheeses we love so much, that emerges during the aging process.

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Speaker 28 Everything that we watched the man with the soft hands do to his cheesy Parmesan milk was all in order to set up what happens in the cheesecave.

Speaker 8 The precise temperature to heat the milk to, how long to hold it at that temperature, which cultures to add.

Speaker 22 It all matters because it affects the size of the protein molecules and the way the fat molecules are broken down into smaller fats, and those are the variables that make a difference during aging.

Speaker 19 As Cantha told us, part of this happens because of the microbes that were added to the milk during the cheese making process.

Speaker 19 Then there are microbes in the aging room that affect the cheese, and sometimes for some cheeses, not Parmesan, but say Brie or Camembert or blue cheese, microbes are added to the aging cheese.

Speaker 16 For microbes, cheese is the veritable buffet.

Speaker 16 So they've entered this cheese, and now no matter which way they turn, they have delicious fats and they have delicious proteins, which are all nutrients for them to act upon and to break down into smaller, more digestible pieces.

Speaker 16 So, if you have mold, for example, mold spores can cause enzymes, which breaks down the crumbly cheese into a creamy cheese, and bacteria do the same.

Speaker 27 But you can put your shot glass down now because there's more to the magic of aging cheese than just microbes.

Speaker 16 You know, there's a number of factors that can affect how a cheese holds itself, how its texture is, and how it melts. So, the most important thing is its moisture content.

Speaker 43 If you leave a lot of moisture in the cheese, like in mozzarella, the proteins are only loosely packed together with tons of water molecules in between.

Speaker 37 That's what makes those cheeses soft.

Speaker 19 For parmesan, as we saw, a lot of the water was squeezed out, and then also as the parmesan ages, more water evaporates.

Speaker 19 And the lack of water in the cheese means the proteins are packed together really tightly, so you get a harder cheese.

Speaker 6 The aging process affects more than than just how soft or hard the cheese is.

Speaker 16 In fresh unaged cheeses the casein, the protein molecules, are large, they're stretchy, they tend to get tangled into ropes and so they stay very loosely fit.

Speaker 19 But if the salt and microbes are given a long time to act on the cheese as it ages, the casein gets broken down, the proteins are smaller, they're no longer so tangled up.

Speaker 16 So this is why mozzarella, which is a young cheese, gets all tangled up and very stretchy when you melt it, Whereas a cheddar is a little more firm, but when it melts, ah, when it melts.

Speaker 26 When it melts, cheddar is really smooth.

Speaker 41 Let's talk about cheese melting a little, she says, wiping away the drool.

Speaker 16 You know, the melting of cheese is a very sensual experience and people love it. So when you're heating up a cheese, the solid milk fat that's in the cheese begins to liquefy and the cheese softens.

Speaker 19 When you're melting cheese, whether it's on the stovetop or in your mouth, the chemical bonds holding the proteins together start breaking up.

Speaker 16 And when the bonds break, the cheese collapses from the structured piece that it was into a thick fluid.

Speaker 4 So that's the science behind all these unique textures and flavors and the beautiful meltiness.

Speaker 39 But more to the point, these delightful qualities, all of which depend on casein,

Speaker 24 these are the reasons people love cheese.

Speaker 17 It was so fascinating to me that you could start with one ingredient, milk, and that just by inoculating it with certain cultures, you could render all these different flavor profiles and texture profiles.

Speaker 19 Miyoko Shenner is the head of a vegan cheese company called Miyoko's Kitchen. She's also written a cookbook called Artisan Vegan Cheese.
But back in her 20s, she absolutely loved real dairy cheese.

Speaker 17 And I loved all the different fancy cheeses and the whole experience of a glass of wine with your cheese. To me, that represented the good life.

Speaker 17 And, you know, I always hoped that someday in life, I would be successful enough that I could enjoy a fancy cheese plowder and a glass of wine on Friday nights. That was my goal in life.

Speaker 50 And then Miyoko gave it all up.

Speaker 24 She still loved cheese a lot, but their relationship had gone sour.

Speaker 17 Well, it didn't like me very much. We'll put it that way.
In my mid-20s, I realized that my stomach hurts all the time. I lived with perpetual stomach aches.

Speaker 17 And I thought it was kind of normal, like your stomach was supposed to hurt. And someone one day said, what do you mean your stomach hurts all the the time? That's not normal.

Speaker 17 And then I realized, well, gee, maybe, you know, I'm Japanese, maybe I have a dairy allergy. So I gave up cheese and voila, my stomach ills went away.

Speaker 19 I have to say, I might be more like Miyoko than I care to admit. I can't drink much straight milk or eat a lot of ice cream.
My partner Tim calls me lactose barely tolerant. It's common among Jews.

Speaker 22 I am all northern European, genetically speaking, which is an abnormally lactose-tolerant culture.

Speaker 24 In the world as a whole, about 60% of adults have trouble digesting dairy.

Speaker 22 In China, that number rises to 90%.

Speaker 19 A quick note, as cheese like Swiss and Cheddar and Parmesan age, the bacteria break down lactose into lactic acid.

Speaker 19 And so, for people like me, these cheeses are much easier to digest because they don't have much lactose left.

Speaker 36 But stomach troubles are not the only reason why some people might not want to eat cheese.

Speaker 54 There are legitimate issues with how industrial dairy is produced in terms of animal welfare and antibiotic dosing and even carbon footprint.

Speaker 22 Miyoko is now in this second camp.

Speaker 19 And some people just don't think we should consume any animal products at all, including dairy or cheese. They think it's immoral.

Speaker 37 And so all of these groups of people have been motivated to try to find substitutes that embody all of cheese's delight, but are made from plants, which is not easy.

Speaker 16 Nature has made it such that finding a slam dunk replacement for lactose, for casein, and for the fat in milk is almost impossible.

Speaker 19 Of course, that hasn't stopped people from trying. The oldest example of a cheese alternative wasn't actually created as an alternative to cheese.

Speaker 16 Fermented tofu is, it's not the same as the tofu that you see in the stores.

Speaker 16 Fermented tofu is a soft, creamy, a little salty, with a cheese-like food that is believed to have originated somewhere in China or the islands around Okinawa in Japan.

Speaker 16 And there are fermented tofus that have very strong aromas that are reminiscent of, say, a European mold ripened cheese, like Roquefort or Brie or Stilton or Gor Gonzola.

Speaker 16 And then there are fermented tofus that are very mild and creamy, almost like a new Chetel or cream cheese.

Speaker 31 The first European reference to this fermented tofu came in 1855.

Speaker 22 The French consul in Shanghai, Baron de Montigny, wrote a report on fermented tofu, and his conclusion was that this Chinese cheese, as he called it, was a very powerful appetizer, which is hard to resist.

Speaker 19 A few decades later, the Horticultural Society of Marseille was making two types of this Chinese cheese. They called it fromage blanc and fromage rouge.

Speaker 19 The fermented tofus had slightly different flavorings, and the French aged the fake cheeses for four and a half months.

Speaker 19 The society did taste tests on local French people without telling the tasters what they were eating.

Speaker 21 And the response was positive, so much so that the society concluded that, quote, these cheeses will be acceptable to French tastes when they're widely available.

Speaker 19 They still aren't widely available in the West, but you can find fermented tofu today, maybe at a Chinese restaurant or grocery store, but it's not marketed as cheese and it doesn't melt, which is pretty crucial for a cheese substitute.

Speaker 22 There are some vegan cheeses made from soy milk or other beans like peas.

Speaker 42 They're not the same thing, and usually they're not fermented.

Speaker 21 But today, most of the vegan cheeses you'll find are made from nut milks.

Speaker 16 The concept of cheese from nuts is is a very old one that comes from the Middle East and from India, where depending on what the occasion was, nuts were used

Speaker 16 to create a creamy melt-in-your-mouth type of a product, generally sweet, and used as a dessert.

Speaker 19 A thickened cheese-like dish based on almond milk was also popular in medieval Europe, but this was not something that most people were eating.

Speaker 16 And the reason for that is nuts were a luxury and they were largely reserved for the wealthy and the elite.

Speaker 48 The next big move forward in vegan cheese came in the US, prompted by the rise of Seventh-day Adventists.

Speaker 44 They follow a vegetarian diet, but many are actually vegans.

Speaker 19 Starting in about the 1930s, Seventh-day Adventists formed companies to make and market vegan cheese made from soybeans. From the descriptions of it, it was pretty grim stuff.

Speaker 44 Less importantly, but still painfully, it also had terrible names like soy mage.

Speaker 29 But if you wanted a plant-based cheese substitute, soy was pretty much your only commercial choice until 1992.

Speaker 25 In December of that year, a company called Wholesome and Hearty Foods introduced almond cheese, spelled with a Z, the first non-soy-based cheese alternative in modern times.

Speaker 19 A couple years later, a company called Sharon's Finest introduced a new cheese made from Brazil nuts.

Speaker 19 Apparently, some critics, probably critics who hadn't eaten cheese in a long time, they thought it was pretty decent. Miyoko was newly broken up with real cheese and she was not a fan.

Speaker 17 Back in the 90s there was this

Speaker 17 I don't know if I should say anything just because you know the maker of this cheese might be listening but there was a horrible cheese on the market called Vegan Rella and I remember when it first hit the market and I thought oh my god it

Speaker 17 it's a vegan cheese and it was not the kind of high-end cheese.

Speaker 17 It was the kind that was in plastic, you know like a processed cheese that you would you know melt on your burger or or something like that.

Speaker 17 And I bought it and I was so excited and I went home and I opened up the package and I took a bite and I practically threw up. I mean, it was just awful.
You know, it's kind of a joke now.

Speaker 17 People today joke about the dark ages of vegan cheese and what we had to put up with. And so to me, that was like, it wasn't even worth eating.
So I never bought it again.

Speaker 21 So here we are in the 1990s.

Speaker 22 It is, as Miyoko told us, the dark ages of vegan cheese.

Speaker 27 Fermented tofu is okay flavor-wise, but it doesn't melt and it isn't really sold as cheese anyway.

Speaker 37 And the rest, as Miyoko said, forget it.

Speaker 19 But that disgust Miyoko felt fueled her desire to make something better.

Speaker 19 In fact, Miyoko was one of the people who came up with a new technique to develop something far tastier than veganrella and maybe something closer to the real thing.

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Speaker 25 As you may remember, Miyoko Schinner really, really loved cheese.

Speaker 17 I traveled through Europe when I was 20 and my goal in Europe was to go to every single cheese shop throughout France and Switzerland and Italy and just

Speaker 17 nosh on all the hundreds of varieties that you could not possibly get in the United States.

Speaker 19 But as you may also remember, cheese did not love Miyoko back. And so she tried to find cheese alternatives, which she hated.
So she started to make her own.

Speaker 17 My first cookbook came out in the 90s, I think 1990. It was called A Now and Zen Epicure.
And in that book, I did have a recipe for a vegan cheese that I made out of tofu.

Speaker 17 And this was based on seeing a TV show in Japan where nuns were taking tofu and they were doing very various interesting things with it. They would bury it in ash for weeks.

Speaker 17 They would bury it in miso,

Speaker 17 etc. And it completely transforms the texture from kind of a crumbly tofu to something buttery and smooth and fermented in flavor.

Speaker 20 And so Miyoko played around with that.

Speaker 31 And the flavor of her fermented tofu was great, as Japanese nuns and Chinese chefs and the Baron de Montigny and the people of Marseille had already confirmed.

Speaker 4 But fermented tofu doesn't melt.

Speaker 19 Then, in about the early 2000s, Miyoko noticed that some of the raw food folks were making cheese out of nut milk and fermenting it with microbes to try to make cheese just like you would from dairy milk.

Speaker 17 I found that very, very inspirational, the idea that you could take other milks besides soy milk and possibly make something like a cheese with it.

Speaker 17 So then I started reading books on cheese-making and understanding the processes. And I took a few cheese-making classes.
These are really dairy cheese-making classes.

Speaker 17 I was the only student who didn't actually eat the cheese, but I was in the classes observing the science and seeing what happens. And then I just started playing around.

Speaker 17 So it was many, many years of experimenting with different nut milks and figuring out what coagulates, what doesn't coagulate.

Speaker 17 If it doesn't coagulate, how else can you thicken it, and things like that.

Speaker 47 This is a really hard problem.

Speaker 4 At the start of the show, we described exactly how magical milk is.

Speaker 29 The micelles, the casein, the exact ratio of sugars and fats and protein.

Speaker 32 Nuts are also great, but they're different.

Speaker 28 We asked Kantha to explain.

Speaker 16 Most nuts are mostly carbohydrate and don't have as much protein as milk has, and certainly not the type of casein-like protein that milk contains.

Speaker 16 So it requires a lot more skill and a lot more manipulation to be able to get that rich, creamy mouthfeel and the flavors and the textures that one expects from the traditional cow's make cheese.

Speaker 19 Miyoko played around with all sorts of raw materials for her vegan cheeses.

Speaker 28 Homemade almond milk, which is much thicker than the watery store-bought kind, that can have a high enough protein content that you can add rennet or vinegar and curdle it into curds and whey.

Speaker 52 Not big curds, but still something you can work with to make a cheese.

Speaker 17 Otherwise, you can use something like cashews, which are fairly low in protein, and you just make more of what I would call a slurry. It's like a very, very heavy cream.
You can still pour it

Speaker 17 but what happens is that cashews are high in starch. So through fermentation the starch actually thickens the cheese and changes the texture.

Speaker 17 And then over time if you age it, you know you can make a cheese that's kind of like a cheddar in texture.

Speaker 22 So there's a lot of trial and error involved but it is possible to make a nut cheese with a dairy cheese-ish texture.

Speaker 52 But then there's the flavor problem.

Speaker 19 Miyoko said that those early vegan cheeses she hated, the companies weren't bothering to inoculate the cheese with microbes and age it.

Speaker 19 They just kind of made it solid and added lots of flavorings to it. But to get the flavor right, you really need microbes to work their particular magic.

Speaker 19 That's one of the reasons fermented tofu is so great. Yes, take a drink.

Speaker 22 So Miyoko started inoculating her nut cheeses with microbes and aging them.

Speaker 17 They can develop all sorts of flavors. The cultures, they work over a period of weeks or months.
Same thing with the ambient yeast in the atmosphere, etc.

Speaker 17 I can have a cheese, for example, one of our Mount Vesuvius blackass cheeses, and it can taste one way, you know, two weeks after I've aged it, and even after packaging, it'll continue to age.

Speaker 17 If I taste around a year later, it's phenomenal.

Speaker 19 But really, the holy grail of cheese is that awesome meltiness. Kempa called it sensuous.
It's one of the most amazing things there is. And vegan cheese, well, that's hard to get melty.

Speaker 16 The fat in nuts is mostly in the oil format, which is it is a fluid. It's already a liquid at at room temperature.

Speaker 19 Whereas milk fat is solid at room temperature. Just think of butter.

Speaker 29 So to give the fat in nut milk more cheese-like qualities, you have to add things that keep the oil solid at room temperature.

Speaker 44 And those usually mean it also stays solid in your mouth, which is sad.

Speaker 19 Miyoko realized that to get a vegan cheese to melt, she needed to try something different.

Speaker 19 She experimented with starches and found one that would cause the nut milk to thicken, but then the mixture breaks down when it's heated and gets liquidy again, kind of like dairy cheese.

Speaker 17 There's no casein in it, which is one thing that allows things to sort of stretch and melt.

Speaker 47 Miyoko's trick is to add an extra fat that is solid at room temperature, like coconut oil.

Speaker 22 So when the nut milk cheese warms up, the coconut fat melts, the starch reliquefies, and it kind of works.

Speaker 17 Well our mozzarella is really melty.

Speaker 17 And, you know, we serve it on pizza or paninis, and most people are eating it and they don't realize it's vegan.

Speaker 17 So, you know, a very discriminating person might notice, but the average person just eats it and thinks it's delicious.

Speaker 27 This is obviously something we had to try for ourselves, and we did.

Speaker 49 But first, we've got the story of real vegan cheese.

Speaker 21 That's right, cheese that's made from milk that was made by genetically modified yeasts, no animals involved.

Speaker 18 It was the brainchild of one of our founding team members, Mark Jewell, who had been wanting to pursue this project for a long time.

Speaker 22 This is Maria Chavez again.

Speaker 18 She's the executive director of BioCurious, the community biotech lab out in oakland and she's one of the leaders of the real vegan cheese project and his idea was what if we use yeast and instead of having yeast produce alcohol for example when we brew beer or make wine what if we have the yeast actually produce cheese protein and we create a process very similar to beer brewing with a few extra steps to actually make cheese that is biologically chemically identical to the cheese you would get from a cow.

Speaker 19 Sounds super simple, right? I mean, how hard could it be to get microbes to make milk?

Speaker 18 The first thing we needed to do is actually determine what genes make cheese proteins.

Speaker 37 It's our old friend casein.

Speaker 30 Remember the four kinds, the ones that hang out in blobs called micelles?

Speaker 18 And so our idea is, what if we find the genes that create these proteins and insert them into yeast and then have the yeast make these proteins? So we're actually still on step one.

Speaker 19 Turns out it's not so simple to just take the genes that make casein in a cow and stick them in yeast.

Speaker 19 There's a bunch of tweaking needed so that the cow genes get comfy in an organism that comes from an entirely different and not at all related branch of life.

Speaker 18 So people have been asking for a long time, what...

Speaker 18 Hold up.

Speaker 18 We initially really wanted to do this using Saccharomyces cerevisiae, which is baker's yeast, because we thought that the public would be really excited about something that's relatable.

Speaker 21 But after a couple of years of trying to coax baker's yeast to cooperate with these new genes and failing, Maria and the team gave up and tried a new yeast.

Speaker 18 So we've switched past in the last year and gone to a different yeast strain, P.

Speaker 18 Kip Hastoris, because we've been having enormous problems making the kappa casein, which is the most important of the four proteins we need.

Speaker 18 But we have recently in the last couple of months started to see some results and I think we're starting to finally produce kappa.

Speaker 19 Kappa casein is the one with the tails that are sliced off by rennet so they form curds. It's the most important type of casein if you want to make cheese.

Speaker 22 Okay, so now the new yeast in town is starting to make kappa casein.

Speaker 6 Are they there yet?

Speaker 49 Do we have real vegan cheese in the house?

Speaker 13 Nope, not yet.

Speaker 19 The real vegan cheese folks also still need a vegan fat and sugar source that are basically similar to milk sugars and fats.

Speaker 18 And then we've got to get these micelles to actually coagulate. And we're working on some of the cheese science.

Speaker 47 This is a whole other set of problems.

Speaker 22 Some of the team have been practicing actually making cheese using store-bought casein while the others are futzing about with the yeast.

Speaker 18 We've been having some results with that and that we've been able to taste and try some

Speaker 18 with mixed results. We're not great food scientists so we're still working on trying to understand what's happening there.
We've done something. It was kind of like a grainy ricotta.

Speaker 19 That was not what they were looking for. And it's true that this project has been taking a while, a few years so far.

Speaker 19 It's not just that the science is really hard to get right, it is, but it's also that everyone working on it is a volunteer.

Speaker 18 We are our own nonprofit, but we are a citizen science project. So this is not a for-profit company.
Anyone of any age can join the team.

Speaker 18 We've had students as young as ninth graders on the project, as well as PhDs.

Speaker 22 Even so, Maria thinks her all-volunteer team will be producing something cheese-like within the year.

Speaker 19 Even when they do get the yeast to make milk proteins, there's still another big challenge ahead. It's tough to get yeast-based technologies to scale up.

Speaker 19 Sometimes yeast in a huge vat doesn't behave the same as it does in a Petri dish.

Speaker 49 But that hasn't stopped the real vegan cheese team from dreaming big.

Speaker 48 They're not actually stopping at just cow's milk cheese.

Speaker 47 In fact, their initial goal was to make three different kinds of cheese.

Speaker 32 Cow cheese, yes, but also human cheese by adding the genes that make milk in humans to yeast.

Speaker 19 The team thought that a human milk cheese would be better suited to people who can't process cow's milk. It might not cause allergies or the same types of intolerances.

Speaker 18 However, we discovered a few months, maybe a year or two into this project, two different things. One, there is almost zero interest from people in a human cheese.

Speaker 18 They're actually quite disgusted by it for whatever reason.

Speaker 18 And that was something that kind of surprised us because we thought it was kind of cool.

Speaker 51 Oh my god.

Speaker 19 Shocked, yes. Frankly, I wouldn't eat that regularly myself.

Speaker 33 Try, yes.

Speaker 25 Put on a Friday evening cheese plate for friends?

Speaker 19 No. Turns out that the FDA was also not a fan and said they couldn't go ahead with the project.
The FDA said that, in fact, using human proteins might cause an autoimmune response.

Speaker 19 So, no human milk microbial cheese.

Speaker 25 Which brings us to cheese number three.

Speaker 18 We wanted to take the most ridiculously unusual organism that people have never made cheese from. And when we thought, what has no one ever milked to make cheese from that's a mammal?

Speaker 18 And we thought narwhal whales.

Speaker 19 Yes, narwhal whales. It's true, nobody has ever milked a narwhal before to make cheese.
These are the whales with ridiculously long, thin white tusks, so they look sort of like whalish unicorns.

Speaker 18 There's actually some scientific reasons we were interested in it. Whales, their milk is very similar to toothpaste.
And what would that do as far as how their cheese proteins may be different?

Speaker 25 Tooth-paste cheese.

Speaker 6 It's what the world has been waiting for.

Speaker 49 But in fact, the group of scientists working on sequencing the narwhal genome have been taking forever.

Speaker 45 So Maria's group have switched focus.

Speaker 36 They flirted with the idea of mammoth cheese, an extinct flavor, which would be pretty exciting.

Speaker 19 Because the mammoth genome has, in fact, just recently been published. But the team decided to be a little more pragmatic and go with goat.
They're just getting started on the research for that one.

Speaker 18 The bigger question for me that we haven't figured out is how much is it going to cost to actually produce this and how much do you get as a yield from these yeast?

Speaker 43 After all, yeast need to eat too, so that's a resource input.

Speaker 22 And the whole bioreactor process requires water and energy too.

Speaker 18 And I think that's something the whole culture food industry is working on is saying, is this really using less resources and more sustainable than what we currently do in agriculture?

Speaker 18 And my hope is, yes, that we can find methods to make it so.

Speaker 36 So there's still a long way to go.

Speaker 21 But even if the real vegan cheese team never gets a product into stores, it's still already achieved a lot of its goals.

Speaker 19 Because one of the things the team wanted to do was to show investors that a microbial vegan cheese is possible and that it might be popular, which their super successful crowdfunding campaign helped demonstrate.

Speaker 19 Now there's a startup with people who are getting paid that's also working on bringing vegan dairy to market. It's called Perfect Day.

Speaker 18 And they are a startup company with a lot of venture capital funding behind them, you know, millions of dollars.

Speaker 18 And we watch what they do and we respect what they do.

Speaker 33 But they're not the same.

Speaker 22 Everything that the Real Vegan Cheese Project does is open source.

Speaker 34 Anyone can get involved.

Speaker 33 The bigger idea, their real goal, is to open up the science of synthetic biology and get people comfortable with it.

Speaker 19 After all, there's been quite a lot of pushback and concern in the general public about genetically modified organisms when it comes to food.

Speaker 18 It is a genetically engineered product. You are eating the genetically engineered yeast, but the end result is made from a GMO.

Speaker 18 And that's one thing we also like with the project is this idea of changing people's perceptions of GMO foods.

Speaker 22 To be honest, the rennet in a lot of the straight-up normal dairy cheese you eat these days was produced by genetically modified yeast. But that's a different story.

Speaker 31 And not one you see the dairy industry advertising.

Speaker 45 But Maria really believes we can use this technology for good.

Speaker 49 It's not all big, evil corporations selling us franken foods.

Speaker 39 And she wants others to see that potential too.

Speaker 18 We do have quite a few members of our team that are very hardcore vegans and very active in the vegan community and the vegan advocacy community.

Speaker 18 But we also have team members that are meat eaters and just really like the science behind it and like some of the other ideas behind it.

Speaker 19 In any case, maybe you'll be seeing vegan cheese made from microbes on your supermarket shelves in the future.

Speaker 33 I'm excited to try it.

Speaker 43 Of course, this real vegan cheese still won't be cheese cheese, even if the casein is made by cow jeans.

Speaker 28 Like Cantha said, there are too many other things going on in cow's milk for there ever to be a 100% slam-dunk substitute.

Speaker 26 But that narwhal cheese? I'm so in.

Speaker 19 So, okay, Nikki, you and I couldn't buy microbial cheese, narwhal, or cow to taste for this episode, but we could try out the vegan alternatives that you can find at the grocery store.

Speaker 19 Not just Miyoko's, she's known as one of the leaders in the industry, but there are a lot of companies selling vegan cheese today.

Speaker 62 This is the tree-line aged nut cheese. It's a very nice box that it's in.

Speaker 49 This is my sister-in-law, Linda, and she is great at unwrapping vegan cheese.

Speaker 62 It looks not

Speaker 62 very very good at all, actually.

Speaker 13 It has a horrible color.

Speaker 62 It's almost like a grayish tan hockey puck.

Speaker 62 I probably would choose not to have this.

Speaker 13 I'd throw it away after I opened it.

Speaker 62 But given that we're doing this for Nikki,

Speaker 8 I'll go ahead and open it.

Speaker 22 Note to self: do not make your in-laws taste test vegan cheese for your podcast if you wish to remain on good terms with your husband's family.

Speaker 19 I had a perhaps easier crowd with me. It was my partner Tim, my mom, who's also been on Gastropod before, and my high school friend Minda.

Speaker 63 My nieces are dairy-free, so there's fake cheese at their house, but they usually also have real cheese. So I let them have the

Speaker 63 alternative cheese, and then I eat the real cheese.

Speaker 12 But I like the idea, right? Like, what's not to like? If it's something that's tasty and better animal welfare, then great.

Speaker 8 I'm open to it.

Speaker 19 Okay, so one person at this table is open to it. Mom, I don't think you're so open to it.

Speaker 12 I'll see.

Speaker 19 That I'm not sure of at all.

Speaker 19 But for all that, you're saying that you're open to it. You're the one who hasn't been not, you've been looking at the cheese going, I don't want to do this.

Speaker 14 I'm open to it.

Speaker 12 I'm skeptical.

Speaker 50 Between us both, we had gathered a whole array of vegan cheeses.

Speaker 56 I had that cashew nut one that Linda unwrapped.

Speaker 22 I had some tofu-based American cheese slices. There were a couple of cheddars, one almond-based and one that was a sort of coconut oil, tapioca starch pea protein combo.

Speaker 37 And I had one of Miyoko's cheeses, a double cream chive.

Speaker 19 We had similar cheeses to yours, the same American-style slices, one of the same cheddars. We had that Miyoko chive spreadable cheese.

Speaker 19 And then we also had Miyoko's mozzarella, the one she said was really melty. And we had a shredded pepper jack from cashews.

Speaker 22 We started with that aged cashew nut cheese. Around the table, it was Linda, her daughter, Olivia, my sister-in-law Chris, my mother-in-law Anne, and my husband, Jeff.

Speaker 62 This is pretty disgusting.

Speaker 6 It's sour and it's

Speaker 61 really dry.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it doesn't feel good in my mouth.

Speaker 47 There's a very bad aftertaste.

Speaker 31 What does the texture remind you of?

Speaker 51 Nothing I ever to eat again, but um

Speaker 14 yeah I think mealy is a good description, but I feel like it's more smoky and it and it's not it's not that bad. I just don't like the texture at all.

Speaker 30 So not a winner.

Speaker 60 I took one bite and I couldn't believe how gross it was.

Speaker 20 It was bitter and grainy and truly disgusting.

Speaker 34 Although then I tried a piece on a cracker and that was easier to deal with.

Speaker 19 That's how we ate it. We didn't try it by itself.
We kind of spread it thinly on matzah.

Speaker 12 This one smells you know like a cheese dip.

Speaker 63 I don't think it does. I think it's the.
It smells like something, but not like a cheese to me.

Speaker 14 I don't immediately say, oh, this is cheese, but I'll see how it tastes.

Speaker 13 I like it, actually.

Speaker 19 It's got a little bit too much sour for me.

Speaker 13 Well, I actually really like the dough. Not bad.

Speaker 12 I like the sour tang. I think that's what makes it seem more like actual cheese.
Yeah, I like the flavor. The look and the consistency is kind of like

Speaker 12 wall spackle.

Speaker 13 It is.

Speaker 19 That is exactly what it looks like.

Speaker 47 Chris actually thought it looked more like cat food, but I can see the wall spackle resemblance.

Speaker 28 Moving swiftly onwards, our next one was the pea coconut tapioca cheddar.

Speaker 11 Okay, that smells like cheddar. That doesn't smell bad at all.

Speaker 11 I would believe this was cheddar if someone put it in front of me.

Speaker 62 I would agree. It almost smells a little bit like Velveeta.

Speaker 31 Appetizing.

Speaker 62 Question whether that's cheese or not.

Speaker 11 A high compliment.

Speaker 6 It tastes the flavor of a Cheez-It.

Speaker 62 There isn't the horrible aftertaste of the first one.

Speaker 62 So if I had to eat this, I could.

Speaker 19 We had kind of the same meh, but okay, reaction to that cheddar. My mom's first comment was that it wasn't hard enough.
The texture was too soft when she cut into it.

Speaker 19 Although this smells like cheddar.

Speaker 13 This does smell like cheddar.

Speaker 19 It smells like cheddar cheese. Too easily broken up in your mouth.

Speaker 19 The texture is totally off for you.

Speaker 14 It's really off, yeah. It's not bad as far as a cheddar goes.

Speaker 19 It just has the wrong texture.

Speaker 12 To me, it tastes like institutional cheddar. Right? So it's not cabot cloth bound from Vermont.

Speaker 8 No.

Speaker 12 But like if you got,

Speaker 12 if you were on an airplane and you got like a little cheese plate,

Speaker 12 you know, it has that kind of mass-produced cheddar.

Speaker 34 This is a very qualified endorsement, which was kind of the same thing with us.

Speaker 29 Miyoko's chive one, that was nice enough, thinly spread on a cracker.

Speaker 48 It was a little over-chivey for us, but no complaints on the texture.

Speaker 24 And the tofu-based cheese slices, people were like, sure, they taste like processed American cheese.

Speaker 33 If you like that, you'll like this.

Speaker 52 It's fine, it tastes like a cheese slice, so.

Speaker 19 We thought so too. The one we absolutely despised was the shredded pepper jack.
I don't like the texture, I don't like the smell, and I don't like the taste.

Speaker 19 Nikki, you all stopped at tasting them straight.

Speaker 49 There was a limit to what I could ask people not related to me by blood to do.

Speaker 19 My group was totally open to the next step, which was testing out their meltability. We tried the American-ish slices, the cheddar, and Miyoko's mozzarella.
We put them all on matzah.

Speaker 19 The mozzarella looks kind of weird.

Speaker 15 It does. It's very

Speaker 9 funny.

Speaker 8 It's iridescent.

Speaker 19 So it looked funny, but actually when we tasted it, we were pleasantly surprised. We all thought it tasted pretty good, and the melted consistency worked.

Speaker 19 In fact, we liked it better than unmelted, because since vegan mozzarella has none of that miraculous dairy protein casein, when it was straight out of the package, it didn't have the tug and stretchiness of dairy mozzarella.

Speaker 19 The same with the melted cheddar and the American slices.

Speaker 19 In fact, Tim came home and did a taste test on a tuna melt, and both the American and cheddar were, you know, totally fine if you want a processed-type melted cheese.

Speaker 12 If you're doing a high-end tuna sandwich with really nice bread and great cheese and awesome tuna, this isn't it. But if you want, it's kind of a snowy cold day here.

Speaker 12 I just made this in the toaster on a slice of bread. It's perfect for that.
So we have eggless mayonnaise and cheeseless cheese.

Speaker 13 So we're good.

Speaker 19 Now we need tuna-free tuna. and we're set.

Speaker 20 Oh, brave new world.

Speaker 52 Over in sunny California, Jeff reached exactly the opposite conclusion.

Speaker 14 Yeah, I mean, I just feel like the whole world of making one product taste like another product is so incredibly strange that I don't know.

Speaker 14 Like, if I went vegan, I wouldn't want something that is the functional equivalent of cheese. I would just move beyond cheese.

Speaker 23 But see, I can't move beyond cheese.

Speaker 19 Tim and I can't either.

Speaker 12 I would absolutely not want to put out a nice bottle of wine and eat these cheeses the way you eat regular cheese.

Speaker 12 But for cooking or for making a dish that needed cheese, that I had a friend who was vegan, I would be perfectly comfortable with them.

Speaker 19 You could even imagine these vegan cheeses in his life, too. Usually, we buy cheese from the farmer's market, and we're both quite comfortable with how those cows are raised.

Speaker 19 But for Tim, there are times when only processed cheese will do.

Speaker 12 Yeah, well, so if I'm craving that kind of cheese, right? If I can having my nostalgia for my old grilled cheese on crappy bread with a can of tomato soup.

Speaker 12 You can only get that flavor from those slices and those, I think, are coming from industrial sources.

Speaker 12 So I would feel better about using one of these slices than, you know, craft singles wrapped individually in plastic.

Speaker 22 This is not a craving I ever have because I didn't grow up here eating that. But I respect the urge to fulfill nostalgic food choices without causing cruelty.

Speaker 28 I'm going to be honest, I hate wasting food more than anything, and I threw out these cheeses.

Speaker 32 They just weren't good enough.

Speaker 19 I threw out some, but I'm keeping around the spreads and a couple of the melty ones. They can't measure up to real cheese for me, but if I think of them as their own thing, they're okay.

Speaker 8 And actually, on that same note, I can recommend fermented tofu pretty highly, although I've never thought of it as cheese really, or had it on a cracker with wine.

Speaker 22 But what exploring the science of vegan cheese has stressed to me is how amazing real cheese really is.

Speaker 36 The science.

Speaker 34 It's incredible.

Speaker 19 I am quite sure that this will not be our last last episode devoted to cheese.

Speaker 29 Thanks this episode to the fabulous folks at the Istituto Lazzaro Spalanzani for showing us how to make delicious, delicious Parmesan, and to the incredible Tony Mazzalia of Taste Florence for making that happen and translating.

Speaker 4 We have links and lots of awesome photos on our website.

Speaker 19 Thanks also to Canta Schalke of Corvus Blue and Miyoko Schinner of Miyoko's Kitchen and Maria Chavez of the Real Vegan Cheese Project, as well as Rebecca Wilbanks who talked to us about it.

Speaker 19 We have links to their research and their products on our website, gastropod.com, and thanks to all our listeners who suggested this episode.

Speaker 22 And of course, a huge thanks to our guinea pigs and Chris, Linda, Olivia, and Jeff.

Speaker 61 I love you, and I'm sorry.

Speaker 19 Linda, Tim, and Mom, thanks for being good sports.

Speaker 27 We'll be back in two weeks with an old-fashioned food adventure.

Speaker 64 So he takes a steamship across the Atlantic Ocean to Naples.

Speaker 64 And that's really his first international trip and the beginning of what would unfold of a decade of exploring and international travel on and off boats all over the world.

Speaker 65 This month on Explain It to Me, we're talking about all things wellness. We spend nearly $2 trillion on things that are supposed to make us well.

Speaker 65 Collagen smoothies and cold plunges, Pilates classes and fitness trackers. But what does it actually mean to be well? Why do we want that so badly?

Speaker 65 And is all this money really making us healthier and happier? That's this month on Explain It To Me, presented by Pureleaf.