Violence continues in Gaza despite peace deal

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Speaker 4 This is the Global News podcast from the BBC World Service.

Speaker 4 I'm Valerie Sanderson, and at 15 Hours GMT, these are our main stories. The day after the ceasefire deal came into force, what now for Gaza? Humanitarian organizations say aid can't come soon enough.

Speaker 4 Who's running Madagascar now the president has left the country? Well, efforts to reduce the impact of global shipping on the environment, discussed today at talks in London, be scuppered by the US?

Speaker 4 Also, in this podcast, British security officials warn cyber attacks on businesses have surged to a new record.

Speaker 5 The cost of some of these breaches, the financial cost, is significantly above that what we've faced in the past in the UK.

Speaker 4 There are fears about the fragility of the US-backed ceasefire in Gaza, which came into force yesterday.

Speaker 4 As we record this podcast, hospitals in Gaza say seven people have been killed by Israeli fire since midnight on Monday.

Speaker 4 Israel has accused Hamas of reneging on President Trump's plan by only releasing four bodies of the 28 hostages who are thought to have died.

Speaker 4 And there are also videos emerging of what appear to be extrajudicial killings by Hamas. Meanwhile, the humanitarian need is overwhelming.

Speaker 4 An estimated 80% of the strip is damaged, and the impact on the lives of children there has been almost unimaginable. Ricardo Perez is a spokesperson for the United Nations Children's Agency, UNICEF.

Speaker 6 The last two years have been a humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza, fixing and starting to rebuild the infrastructure that was destroyed, the lives of children that have been absolutely affected in a very destructive way.

Speaker 6 They've lost parents, they've been orphaned, they've lost loved ones, they've lost their homes, their schools, they've been killed and maimed at a scale that we haven't seen in many conflicts, especially in the region, especially in Gaza.

Speaker 6 So the task is colossal.

Speaker 4 Our international editor, Jeremy Bowen, spoke to the BBC's Sarah Montagu about the situation in Gaza.

Speaker 1 Ceasefires always start with difficulties, even ones that become successful. There are always violations of ceasefires.

Speaker 1 However, the the way that people who are monitoring ceasefires and trying to make them work get over that is by having, backing them up, a really good foundation of agreements and detail and procedures to make them keep going.

Speaker 1 And this is lacking because the thing about the Trump plan for the future of Gaza, which was done really very quickly,

Speaker 1 was that it points to where they want to go, but it doesn't say how you get there.

Speaker 1 There's so much that hasn't been decided in advance, particularly things like how a ceasefire would work, how Gaza becomes demilitarized.

Speaker 1 You know, the list goes on.

Speaker 8 President Trump, we've obviously gone home. Who's in the has the job of overseeing all this?

Speaker 1 Well, it's not entirely clear because a formal process of negotiation, as far as I understand, has not commenced as yet.

Speaker 1 Now, the initial phase, phase one, which was the ceasefire and the hostage for prisoner exchange was

Speaker 1 decided in with a great deal of pressure on both sides from first of all Trump on the Israelis on Hamas it was the Qataris the Egyptians the Turks they've got leverage as well as that European allies were involved Britain was involved

Speaker 1 the various countries sent their heads of intelligence their spy chiefs it was you know in a sporting term a full court press press to try and make it happen.

Speaker 1 But the intensity of that cannot keep going for more than a couple of days. And there isn't as if there is now a series of meetings that are going on about trying to work all this stuff out.

Speaker 1 Let me give you an example. In the deal, it says that Hamas will give up its weapons.
Hamas have indicated they might give up some heavy weapons, but they want to keep their lighter weapons.

Speaker 1 The Israelis say Hamas needs to be totally disarmed. Now, in the deal there's talk of an international stabilization force.

Speaker 1 And that might include, some people have said, the Indonesians, maybe the Azerbaijan might send troops. Egypt has talked about it and others.

Speaker 1 But they will not be sending their people in there unless they are disarming by consent. They're not going to go in there and try and seize Hamas weapons.

Speaker 1 If Hamas agrees, and they haven't, to giving up certain things, putting them on the ground, here they are, then that would be an encouragement to to send those troops in.

Speaker 1 They will not be sent in to fight a war against Hamas.

Speaker 8 I mean, there are other issues. I mentioned the hostages, the bodies of the hostages who have not yet been returned.

Speaker 8 We saw 1,700 Palestinian prisoners released back to Gaza yesterday, and these were people who'd been picked up in Gaza.

Speaker 8 How many more Gazans do we know were taken and are still being detained without charge?

Speaker 1 Something approaching a thousand

Speaker 1 who were picked up as what Israel calls unlawful combatants. Now, those include people like the directors of hospitals.

Speaker 1 There have been absolutely hair-raising and well-sourced reports of terrible mistreatment of prisoners by the Israelis, including mistreatment up to and including rape and starvation.

Speaker 1 A lot of Palestinians have died in custody. As well as that, Israel holds more than 3,000 detainees on remand and 3,500 Palestinian administrative detainees.

Speaker 1 In other words, people interned without trial. About 1,500 have sentences.

Speaker 1 These figures are quite widespread, but the one I'm looking at more specifically is from an Israeli human rights organization called Hamoked.

Speaker 1 And also, there are question marks about the way that convicted prisoners are even tried, because they're tried in military courts, which don't have the same kinds of standards of evidence and procedure and representation that you'd expect in a civil court.

Speaker 1 So question, have all these people who have even been sentenced had fair trials? There are massive questions about the way that Israel has imprisoned and continues to imprison a lot of Palestinians.

Speaker 1 So that goes on.

Speaker 4 Jeremy Bowen. You might think with Donald Trump focusing his attention on the Middle East, he's had less time for some of his other concerns, including the US trade war with China.

Speaker 4 But on Tuesday, the world's two largest economies are beginning to charge port fees on ocean shipping firms, making the high seas a new front in the trade dispute.

Speaker 4 Beijing announced the levies last week alongside moves to tighten controls on its rare earth exports. The U.S.
President responded with a threat of an additional 100% tariff on Chinese imports.

Speaker 4 So, as tensions rise, which side can hold out longer? Deborah Elms is head of trade policy at the Hinrich Foundation in Singapore.

Speaker 10 China's been preparing for a potential conflict for quite some time, has been readying its own stockpiles, has been building up its expertise, has been trying to diversify its trade.

Speaker 10 You can see that trade volumes from China to the United States were falling before Trump came into office, and that's just accelerated since then. Obviously, they would prefer not to have a trade war.

Speaker 10 But if one happens, you need to be ready. And I think China would say they are ready.

Speaker 4 I asked our business correspondent, Nick Marsh, whether the latest announcements mean the trade war is ratcheting up or whether they can calm it down?

Speaker 11 They probably can calm this down. We've seen it before.
We've just gone through a period of relative calm actually.

Speaker 11 Over the summer, there were representatives, quite high-level representatives, from Beijing and Washington, meeting all over Europe, and they kind of declared a truce.

Speaker 11 The agreement was that we're not going to take this any further, we're going to come down from the precipice.

Speaker 11 You know, all the really sort of inflamed rhetoric that we heard earlier this year, there wasn't going to be any more 100%, 200% tariffs, that sort of thing.

Speaker 11 You know, not the wild stuff we were hearing earlier this year.

Speaker 11 Now, as you say, things have kind of ratcheted up a little bit due to these export controls that China's put in, due to the US as well, a couple of weeks earlier, expanding its blacklist of Chinese companies, American firms, especially chip firms, were banned from selling to.

Speaker 11 So, you know, there is always going to be these sorts of pumps along the road. And when you have Donald Trump in the White House, it's going to be quite bombastic.

Speaker 11 And when you have, you know, the Chinese leadership in Beijing, who are always pretty resolute when it comes to this issue talking about fighting to the very end if they have to but being prepared to negotiate if they have to as well we're kind of getting back into slightly familiar territory where we were slightly earlier this year so it's pretty problematic for businesses isn't it and consumers because nobody knows where they are as regarding prices yeah it's massively problematic I mean you mentioned earlier the new port fees for example I mean pretty astronomical when you actually dig into the numbers there might be different sort of you know loopholes that firms can get around.

Speaker 11 I mean, if a ship isn't US-built or registered, then they're not going to be subject to these sorts of fees.

Speaker 11 But I mean, just so long as both sides keep invoking new regulations, then revoking them, it just leaves businesses in China, in the US, and all around the world, frankly, caught in between, scratching their heads, not knowing what to do and just sort of praying for a bit of calm.

Speaker 4 Nick Marsh in Singapore.

Speaker 4 And staying with the topic of shipping, negotiators from more than 100 countries are gathering in London for talks on how to reduce the environmental impact of the global industry.

Speaker 4 They were expected to adopt a treaty to slash emissions by moving away from fossil fuels, but the Trump administration appears ready to sink such a deal.

Speaker 4 Our climate and science reporter, Esme Stalard, told me more about the industry's impact.

Speaker 12 Estimates are that shipping accounts for around 3% of global emissions. That's according to the International Maritime Organisation.

Speaker 12 That's the UN body that's overseeing these negotiations this week, but also collects a lot of data on this.

Speaker 12 3% doesn't sound like a lot, but shipping, like aviation, is one of two sectors that has really struggled to curb its emissions, whilst other sectors have really accelerated their move away from fossil fuels.

Speaker 12 The reason for that is that shipping relies on a particularly dirty type of fossil fuel, with kind of what's left at the bottom of the barrel, if you like, and hasn't really come up with good alternatives or certainly cheap alternatives that they could use instead.

Speaker 12 So that is the concern that that 3% will continue to grow. And effectively, that growth has very much been in line with global trade.
90% of global trade is now carried by ships.

Speaker 12 So, that's why it's such a concern for some countries.

Speaker 4 More than 100 countries gathering in London for talks on this. What kind of deal could be worked out, do you think?

Speaker 12 So, this global deal was actually agreed back in April. As you said, what it committed to was moving ships towards cleaner fuels.

Speaker 12 If they didn't do that, they will face fines that will incrementally increase over time.

Speaker 12 It's anticipated that those fines would be paid in the early few years as ships made that transition, and that would go to a central pot to kind of help developing countries invest in their own infrastructure.

Speaker 12 The meeting this week effectively was sort of to sign on the dotted line, approve that deal, and then move into the kind of nitty-gritty details of how does this all work in practice.

Speaker 12 But actually, that's kind of been thrown into disarray with the US's increasing intervention in this, and there's now questions whether this deal will even be approved this week.

Speaker 4 And what does that mean if the US doesn't play ball?

Speaker 12 So, it's interesting, the US doesn't actually flag many ships, so it's not actually kind of controlling that many ships. So, you'd think they wouldn't be that interested.

Speaker 12 But actually, back in April, when this deal was first being negotiated, they sent a number of letters around to embassies in London where these talks are taking place, threatening countries that agreed to the deal with tariffs.

Speaker 12 That was ratcheted up again on Friday when the US Secretary of State Marco Rubio and the US Transportation Secretary, Sean Duffy, threatened port bans for any ships coming to the US and visa restrictions for mariners for those that supported it.

Speaker 12 I think the reason they're so interested is going back to the fact that 90% of trade happens by shipping. Effectively, if you control the seas, you control global trade.

Speaker 12 China's pushed back on that and they've urged countries that supported the deal back in April to stand firm.

Speaker 12 So I think really the talks this week could just be another arena for these two countries to go head to head on the issues of trade.

Speaker 4 Esme Stellard.

Speaker 4 Still to come on the Global News podcast, how the state of North Carolina dramatically reduced the number of its opioid-related deaths.

Speaker 13 I do believe that it's a combination of all those things, the curriculum that we have here, just the box on. I don't know that I could have done it without any one of those factors.

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Speaker 4 Now to Madagascar, the island nation off the southeast coast of Africa, where there's some confusion about who who is in charge.

Speaker 4 Over the past couple of days it was thought a military coup was underway. At least that's what the sitting president, Ange Radzewel, posted online.

Speaker 4 His whereabouts weren't clear at the time and rumours were swirling that he'd left the country.

Speaker 4 Now Mr Radzuwell has confirmed he has left Madagascar, he says for his own safety, but he'd insisted he would not resign. Then, he said, earlier today, he was dissolving Parliament.

Speaker 4 Now Parliament has voted overwhelmingly to impeach him. Mama Rabba Rabba Nirina is an MP and Secretary General of Madagascar's main opposition party, Tim.

Speaker 4 He says there's now a political vacuum in the country.

Speaker 16 According to the Constitution, it should be the President of the Senate who replaces the President in case of vacancy.

Speaker 16 But even the President of the Senate has been blown away by the senators very recently.

Speaker 16 And still according to the Constitution, after the President of the Senate, it should be the government which should run the country but the prime minister is just appointed a few days ago and there are only three ministers appointed so far so there is no complete government yet the bbc sami awame who's in madagascar gave us the latest it's quite chaotic because like you say the events here are happening extremely fast.

Speaker 17 I was with the colonel at 2 p.m. I asked him, is the army in charge? Will it take power? And they say, no, they are not interested in that.

Speaker 17 And then one hour later, I hear they've announced that they've taken power now.

Speaker 17 They've said they're going to suspend key institutions such as the Senate, the High Constitutional Court, and the High Court of Justice.

Speaker 17 But they're going to retain the National Assembly, which earlier today, they impeached the president.

Speaker 17 Now, they've said they've waited for a while now, but there's been repeated violation of constitutions, and they feel like now they need to move in and do that.

Speaker 17 But a lot of people here believe as well that they've tried their best to exercise restraint, but they feel like the void is just going on and they need to step in.

Speaker 18 Okay, so for total clarity, you're saying that it seems the army chief, and I think this is the chap that runs the CAPSAT elite military unit that we've been speaking about the past couple of days, it seems as if they are keeping the lower house of parliament.

Speaker 18 That's going to stay in place. But everything else, the Senate, the High Constitutional Court and other institutions, and what about the President?

Speaker 17 The President's whereabouts are known. He addressed the nation last night.
Many people here had hoped that he would say where he is, but at least he confirmed that he is out of the country.

Speaker 17 Because again, there were lots of rumors about where is he in the country? Is he outside? But he didn't say where he is.

Speaker 17 Now, that came after he said that he decided to leave the country because his life was in danger. I asked the colonel earlier today, were they planning anything to harm the president?

Speaker 17 And he said that claims is absolutely not true and that they've never planned anything to harm the president. So he dismissed those claims as well.
So the president is not in the country.

Speaker 17 And the Kano said because he's in the country, even his speech for them is almost nothing.

Speaker 18 And Sami, do we know whether the lower house of parliament will accept these moves by the military?

Speaker 17 That we are not sure, to be honest, because even themselves were not sure how even to do this impeachment.

Speaker 17 Earlier in the morning, I'd spoken to the leader of the opposition, and he wasn't even sure how they're going to go about because for them to launch this impeachment process, they needed approval from the government, which the government

Speaker 17 does not exist. So they are really in a very difficult and very new situation.
They've never been in this kind of situation before.

Speaker 17 And so there are a lot of things which they're just taking as they come. So I'm not even sure whether they're going to accept this or not.

Speaker 4 Sami Awami in Madagascar speaking to Rebecca Kesby. In the U.S., US, the opioid crisis has wreaked havoc on families and killed hundreds of thousands of people.

Speaker 4 But some states seem to have turned things round, with fewer people dying from using synthetic opioids such as fentanyl in 2024 than in the previous year.

Speaker 4 North Carolina has seen a dramatic drop and many credit the so-called harm reduction approach practised there, which includes allowing patients to come off hard drugs with the help of medication like methadone.

Speaker 4 But it's a controversial approach. Linda Presley visited Healing Transitions, a rehabilitation clinic for women in the wooded suburbs of the state capital, Raleigh.

Speaker 19 When Healing Transitions opened, it was based on a philosophy of abstinence. So you go cold turkey and stop taking illicit drugs literally overnight.

Speaker 19 If you have an opioid use disorder, you can get very sick from withdrawal, vomiting, diarrhea, pain, anxiety and insomnia in varying degrees.

Speaker 19 Chris Budnick, the executive director here, says abstinence didn't work for everyone.

Speaker 20 Some of the people that we serve weren't being helped and recognising that if you've died, there's no way to then pursue any type of change.

Speaker 19 And so the focus shifted to harm reduction. That is allowing residents to take medication to treat their addiction, to stem cravings, and stop an unpleasant withdrawal.

Speaker 19 But this is controversial in some circles.

Speaker 20 You are replacing an addictive product with another addictive product. It is still addictive.

Speaker 19 This is Mark Pless. He's a member of the North Carolina legislature and believes abstinence is the only way to tackle addiction.
Mark Pless believes addiction is a choice.

Speaker 20 It's a conscious decision. At a point whenever folks were taking these narcotics and they were saying, oh, I got this because of a surgery I had.

Speaker 8 But there's a conscious point to where you choose to continue.

Speaker 19 At Healing Transitions, Alicia tells a different story. She says one of the keys to her recovery was Suboxone, a medication that eases withdrawal.

Speaker 13 I had tried other avenues and I was not successful.

Speaker 19 So you tried abstinence before, had you?

Speaker 13 Yes, ma'am, but I was not terribly committed to it the way that I am now.

Speaker 13 I do believe that it's a combination of all those things, the curriculum that we have here, the Suboxone. I don't know that I could have done it without any one of those factors.

Speaker 19 Because we've met somebody here who was talking about, you know, abstinence the only way, drug use is a choice, and then you have to choose to stop.

Speaker 13 I do not believe that. At some point, it stops being a choice.
There are many times that you don't want to use or you don't want to drink, but you can't not.

Speaker 19 Alicia's recovery was going well. She's no longer being treated with Suboxone, and she's looking forward to going home.

Speaker 9 Brittany, Brittany.

Speaker 19 At healing transitions, they run regular overdose drills in the same way you might have a fire drill at work.

Speaker 21 Grab me some Narcan's.

Speaker 19 Narcan's the trade name for naloxone, sometimes described as a miracle drug. It brings people back if they overdose on an opioid.

Speaker 19 The wide availability of naloxone is believed to be another reason why the number of fatal overdoses has plummeted in North Carolina. It comes as a simple nasal spray.

Speaker 21 I'm going to go up the right nostril.

Speaker 21 She still is not responding, so I'm going to go with my second one.

Speaker 18 Do the left.

Speaker 21 Two breaths, 30 chest compressions.

Speaker 4 And would she normally start breathing by now?

Speaker 21 What happened? It really could take as many Narcanes as it could take. Sometimes it could take up to 12, sometimes it could take one.
It just depends on how much the person is used.

Speaker 19 And have you ever had to do it for real?

Speaker 21 I had a friend that overdosed. I did have to Narcane her six times before she came back.

Speaker 19 But you saved her life?

Speaker 9 Yes, ma'am.

Speaker 19 And in this opioid overdose roleplay at healing transitions, Abby seems to have saved Brittany's life too. There she is.

Speaker 14 She's back.

Speaker 4 That report by Linda Presley. British security officials say the number of significant cyber attacks has surged to a new record this year.

Speaker 4 There's been a raft of high-profile hacks here in the UK, causing major disruption and costing global brands millions of dollars, such as the car maker, Jaguar Land Rover, the supermarket chain Co-op, and the retailer Marks and Spencer.

Speaker 4 Professor Kieran Martin is a former CEO of the National Cyber Security Centre.

Speaker 5 I think one of the things that really has hit home this year is the cost of some of these breaches, the financial cost of Jaguar Landover when it's fully known of Marks and Spencer's, the co-op, is significantly above that's what we've faced in the past in the UK.

Speaker 4 Now officials have urged businesses to turn to low-tech methods to protect themselves, including using pen and paper when computer systems are compromised.

Speaker 4 The BBC's cyber correspondent Joe Tidy told us more about the increase in attacks.

Speaker 22 I think what we're seeing at the moment is a wake-up call, in a sense, to the general public, because every single week there is a major attack.

Speaker 22 I think this year with MNS and Co-op and Harrods and JLR, I think the public here are sort of going through a bit of a realization of just how impactful these attacks can be.

Speaker 22 In terms of where the attacks are coming from, there's two real areas, I suppose. The first would be the creme de la creme of hacking groups.
We call them advanced persistent threats.

Speaker 22 They are run by governments. So the Chinese government, Russian government, yes, the UK government, yes, the US government.

Speaker 22 They have APT teams that will be hacking everything and everyone, but using a kind of rules-based system of what's allowed and what's not.

Speaker 22 This is kind of cyber espionage, power projection, that kind of thing. Then you've got the far bigger problem from organizations out there, which is ransomware, extortionware, criminal gangs.

Speaker 22 And they are the ones that are making hundreds of millions every year from hacking companies around the world.

Speaker 22 And they are, we think, because of a lot of evidence largely based or headquartered in countries like Russia, Russian-speaking countries, former Soviet countries.

Speaker 22 But we know, of course, there has been a resurgence in the last year or so of teenage hacking culture, subculture. English-speaking gangs are out there.
They're very active, especially this year.

Speaker 22 And we've seen already this year seven arrests of British teenagers.

Speaker 22 It isn't new, this idea that we need to prepare for when the hackers get in, not just try and stop them getting in with cybersecurity products, but actually prepare for when an attack brings down your computers.

Speaker 22 So can you operate without any email? Can you operate without any systems that keep your production lines going? Can you operate with essentially pen and paper? That's what they're saying.

Speaker 22 They're arguing companies to have those sorts of things in place, the contingency plans. So that's the message from the NCSC today is to get those, as the phrase describes, resilience engineering.

Speaker 22 Try and build into your system a way to bounce back quicker if and when they get in.

Speaker 22 I always remember I went and covered a major cyber attack on a Norwegian aluminium producer called Norse Kydro, And they were fantastic.

Speaker 22 Ever since the beginning of the attack, it was a gang called Locker Gogra, I think it was, and they were asking for 100,000 euros to un-encrypt the servers and everything of this production company.

Speaker 22 And they didn't comply. They said from the beginning, we're not paying the criminals.
We're going to try and get back on our feet.

Speaker 22 In the end, it cost them about 40 million Euros to get back on their feet in about two years.

Speaker 22 But the hero of the hour for Norse Kydro was this quite an old worker who was down in the warehouse, down in the kind of the bowels of the production line and he loved paper and he kept reams and reams of the the different shapes and molds that the company was producing for all their clients around the world and when everything went down he became the guy that they went to because he had the the plans for how to bounce back and get the production lines moving again

Speaker 4 sometimes the old ways are the best ways joe tidy The Nobel Prize for Economics was announced on Monday. The news was rather overshadowed in our output by the events in the Middle East.

Speaker 4 But it's gone to three economists, Philippe Aguillon, Peter Howitt and Joel Mocher, for their work on sustained economic growth that's improved living standards, health and quality of life for people around the world.

Speaker 4 We heard from Professor Philippe Aguillon from the Collège de France in Paris and the London School of Economics. And he started by telling us about the moment he found out he'd won.

Speaker 23 I got a phone call at 10.30 yesterday morning and it came as a complete surprise. I could not, I was totally speechless.
So, and right away you move into another world.

Speaker 23 And you feel that you're the spectator of a happy story, but you see it from outside first. You don't realize you are part of it.

Speaker 18 Well, the prize committee are absolutely glowing about your contribution to economics.

Speaker 18 This is all about the relationship between technological progress and sustained economic growth. And they said that they were awarding you and the others the prize

Speaker 23 with the hope that your work could be steered in the direction to support humankind can you tell us a bit more about it i thought there was a way to boost prosperity a prosperity which you know which is inclusive which is consistent with a good social model and at the same time which is consistent with fighting the climate change some people believe that the only way to fight climate change is to have degrowth no i mean you can have growth but you need to have the right kind of growth what kind of growth you need also the people who said well you know it's true growth is very much driven by creative destruction.

Speaker 23 But they're concerned that that might mean a lot of layoffs, a lot of social unrest and social unhappiness.

Speaker 23 And that has been always my concern, to reconcile growth and prosperity on the one hand with having a harmonious social model and a true commitment to green transition.

Speaker 18 We can't go into the exact details of your work, but I mean, in a nutshell, what do you advise then?

Speaker 23 Growth is driven by having all the time new talents, new entrants that challenge incumbent firms, that challenge incumbent interests.

Speaker 23 Yesterday's innovators turn into incumbents, incumbent firms, and they need to be challenged constantly by new entrants, new talents coming in.

Speaker 23 And a dynamic economy is an economy where all the time you have this new entry refreshing, you know, renewing the blood, you see what I mean?

Speaker 23 So then the policy is to unleash the forces that favor growth. So first, you want to have a good education system.
When you have good education systems, you are more likely to have more innovators.

Speaker 23 Okay, so that's one thing. And then you need policies that favor the entry of new firms and the growth of new firms.
But you want to make sure that as they grow, they don't prevent the entry of

Speaker 23 new firms. You see what I mean? So that's where competition policy is important.

Speaker 23 So I believe that the main pillars are a good education system, a good competition policy, good financial ecosystem of innovation, good mixture between competition policy and industrial policy.

Speaker 4 Philippe Aguillon from the College de France speaking to Rebecca Kesby.

Speaker 4 And that's it from us for now. But before we go, a message from a listener.

Speaker 24 This is Barry MacLeod Hughes, now a U.S. citizen and someone living in the States.
I am also someone who hasn't been a Trump supporter so far.

Speaker 24 If President Trump wants more credibility as a peacemaker, let him donate at least one million dollars of his personal wealth into a Gaza restoration fund. If there isn't one, let them create it.

Speaker 24 He wanted him great publicity and something in the game to help make his peace plan accessible.

Speaker 4 And Barry got us thinking, how will the world rebuild Gaza? We're taking your questions and ideas for a special global news podcast. As ever, you can send us an email or a voice note.

Speaker 4 The address is globalpodcast at bbc.co.uk. You can also find us on X at BBC World Service using the hashtag global newspod.

Speaker 4 This edition was mixed by Jack Wolfen and the producers were Richard Hamilton and Stephen Jensen. The editor is Karen Martin.
I'm Valerie Saunderson. Until next time, bye-bye.

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