Hong Kong fire kills at least 128 people

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Speaker 5 this is the global news podcast from the bbc world service

Speaker 5 I'm Celia Hatton and at 16 hours GMT on Friday the 28th of November these are our main stories Hong Kong's fire service says smoke alarms weren't working properly in the high-rise blocks where over 120 people died in a fire President Trump says he's permanently pausing migration from a host of countries after this week's National Guard shooting.

Speaker 5 Thousands in Indonesia are trying to figure out what to do after floods and landslides force them to leave their homes.

Speaker 5 Also, in this podcast, the Pope is trying to bridge divides within Christianity while he's on an official visit to Turkey.

Speaker 6 And she was very much a kind of party, clubbing, nocturnal energy. People kind of found their way to her because she was her own walking advert.

Speaker 5 We remember Pam Hogg, the Scottish fashion designer whose eccentric outfits were worn by stars, including Bjork and Lady Gaga.

Speaker 5 We go first to the latest on the devastating fire in Hong Kong that started on Wednesday and ripped through seven buildings in a high-rise housing complex.

Speaker 5 Officials now say at least 128 people have died, and rescue efforts to try to find survivors have ended, but around 200 people are still missing.

Speaker 5 Speaking at a news conference, the head of fire services, Andy Jung Yong-kin, told reporters that alarms were not working properly in the tower blocks.

Speaker 9 Some have pointed out that the fire alarms in several blocks did not go off.

Speaker 9 Our fire safety inspection team was deployed yesterday to inspect the fire alarm systems across eight buildings. We found that these fire alarms were malfunctioning.

Speaker 9 We will be taking enforcement actions over this.

Speaker 5 Local media are reporting that the authorities have arrested several more people in connection with the fire.

Speaker 5 Crowds have been gathering at a nearby community hall that has been open to families looking for missing loved ones.

Speaker 5 Eliza Chung is from the Hong Kong Red Cross, which has been helping the victims' relatives.

Speaker 10 A lot of them are in in the state of shock, especially when they first knew of the updates of the family members. If the news came out to be very bad.

Speaker 10 Of course, they are also in this conditional state of finding it very hard to accept the reality. And our team, the volunteers, and the staff are accompanying them.

Speaker 10 Although it's a very painful process and moment, but we want them to feel that

Speaker 10 they're not alone.

Speaker 5 Danny Vincent gave us this update from Hong Kong.

Speaker 11 I'm in Tai Po, very close to the scene where the fire took place. I think people here in Hong Kong are extremely saddened by what's happened.

Speaker 11 There was always an expectation amongst some people at least that the death toll would rise and sadly many people think it will continue to rise because sadly the people that were and are continuing to be missing, there's around 200 people that are considered missing at the moment.

Speaker 11 There are fears that those people were trapped inside and unable to escape and simply didn't survive. Now here on the ground many of the people I've been speaking to are of course grieving.

Speaker 11 Many that I've spoken to new residents inside the building or they've spent time in there or they're familiar with the area. Some people

Speaker 11 had no connection but had simply come to gather to show their respects and experience this tragedy. But there was also a sense of anger.
There's sorrow and grief but there's also anger.

Speaker 11 Many people are beginning to ask questions. They want to know why this fire happened, why it spread so quickly, if anything is being hidden.
Now the authorities have launched an investigation.

Speaker 11 They say it will take between two to four weeks. But some of the people I've been speaking to, they see this as a test of the government because they simply want answers.

Speaker 5 Danny, I mean, you mentioned that anger. We're also hearing that, for example, the fire alarms weren't working in the building.

Speaker 5 We're getting some indications of the lack of fire protections in place in these buildings.

Speaker 5 Are you hearing anger around that kind of news that's emerging?

Speaker 11 I'm hearing that.

Speaker 11 On the ground, the majority of people that I've spoken to, they're standing silently and they're mourning, they're grieving, they're taking this situation in.

Speaker 11 But there are people that are angry and are making these type of allegations.

Speaker 12 I've heard from a number of people that have said that they've heard the fire alarms weren't working, that they're asking questions.

Speaker 12 Most people say they want to be neutral, they're waiting for information from the authorities, but there certainly is that

Speaker 11 suspicion, if you like.

Speaker 12 And

Speaker 12 like one individual said to me that this is really a test for the government.

Speaker 12 They want to wait to see what information comes out, but they also are concerned that perhaps someone should be held accountable for this. And this was more than just an innocent

Speaker 11 accident. It was something that potentially could have been prevented.

Speaker 5 Danny Vincent. The shooting of two U.S.
National Guard soldiers in Washington in the run-up to Thanksgiving has sent shockwaves around the U.S.

Speaker 5 As we reported in our earlier podcast, one of the soldiers, Sarah Beckstrom, has died from her wounds while the other is in a critical condition.

Speaker 5 The suspected gunman is a 29-year-old Afghan national living in the U.S. who had previously worked for the CIA in Afghanistan.

Speaker 5 Although the motive for the shooting isn't known, President Trump has now said he will permanently pause migration from Afghanistan and another 18 countries. He also attacked the U.S.

Speaker 5 immigration policy for not working. Jeremy McKinney is president of the American Immigration Lawyers Association.
He defended the immigration system.

Speaker 13 These Afghans that cooperated with our military underwent the most intensive screening process and vetting process

Speaker 13 of any immigrant that decides to relocate to the United States. So it's very difficult for myself as an immigration attorney to conceive how it could get any more intense.

Speaker 13 But we shall see. It's a sad day for our country because one of these soldiers has died, but it's an especially sad day for migrants in this country because, once again, they're being scapegoated.

Speaker 14 When you say an incredibly tough vetting process, what exactly happens?

Speaker 13 With the program for Afghans, especially, they go through years of administrative processing.

Speaker 13 So they are interviewed, they are fingerprinted, and those go through fairly exhaustive, not only criminal, but also national security checks that are all done outside of the United States.

Speaker 13 So with many people in our immigration process, those types of background checks are done while the person is in the United States.

Speaker 13 But with this process, which in every instance was over a year, if not multiple years, that process is done. outside of the United States before the person is allowed in.

Speaker 13 And so it is not until they've gone through this intense screening that they are permitted in.

Speaker 14 It now seems that the administration in the U.S.

Speaker 14 will look to review the status of people from not just Afghanistan, but 18 other countries, ones it considers high-risk, Cuba and Haiti, Somalia, Venezuela, and so on.

Speaker 14 What are you expecting to see in regards to that?

Speaker 13 I would assume that they would call in individuals for re-interview, perhaps for more biometric screenings. I honestly don't know what our government could do beyond those two steps.

Speaker 13 I guess primarily what they will be looking for,

Speaker 13 since I seriously doubt that they're going to find any evidence of any type of national security or terrorist background because they've already gone through a screening, I would assume that they may be looking for something else to use as an excuse to take away that person's status.

Speaker 13 For example, if the person left something out on their application,

Speaker 13 you know, they'll be accused of having willfully omitted information or misrepresenting information. I mean, we'll just have to see.
The point is, is that this is scapegoating, pure and simple.

Speaker 5 Jeremy McKinney speaking to James Copnell. To Southeast Asia now, it's been battered by storms over the past week, and all that rain is causing deadly floods and landslides across the region.

Speaker 5 More than 140 people are confirmed dead in Thailand. And on the Indonesian island of Sumatra, more than 170 people are dead, and dozens more are unaccounted for.

Speaker 5 This man described how his home was flooded.

Speaker 17 The water started to rise in the morning, but it was slow.

Speaker 17 Then suddenly it got so high and fast.

Speaker 17 My house has a second floor, so we evacuated upstairs. We're running out of supplies and food.
We're trying to find some out here so we can be safe.

Speaker 5 Our reporter, Astudestra Adjung Rastri, is in the Indonesian capital, Jakarta.

Speaker 18 We have spoken to the search and rescue team, and they say they are working day and night to get to the affected area.

Speaker 18 And it's very difficult because in North Sumatra, for example, the flood has started from three days ago, but up until now, the search team is still trying to go into the worst affected area.

Speaker 18 This particular city, Cibolga, for example, there are a lot of death casualties reported from that area, but it is a hilly and mountainous area, and it also a coastal area, which makes it very difficult because the sea level is also quite dangerous nowadays.

Speaker 5 What about the survivors whose homes have been destroyed? What's happening to them?

Speaker 18 Yeah, so the worst heated area in the Sumatra Island is about three provinces: the North Sumatra, West Sumatra, and Aceh. So now each of the disaster relief has been tackled by the local government.

Speaker 18 And each of these provinces now looking at tens of thousands of people displaced from their homes. And they're setting up shelters in schools, in in buildings that are safe from the floods.

Speaker 18 But aid coming to that area is very difficult. We heard from people, locals, they're trying to get food for themselves.
They go to the market and it's scarce.

Speaker 18 And even if there are some food that they can buy, the price is also doubled. So it's very difficult.

Speaker 5 Okay, and also, I mean, I mentioned just a moment ago, it's not just Indonesia, is it several countries have been affected by storms and flooding?

Speaker 5 Can you give us a a sense of the destruction across the region?

Speaker 18 Yeah, Southeast Asia just experienced one of the worst floods in the region. In Thailand, it's 300 years ago that this bad rain had happened in their country.
And it's also the same within Indonesia.

Speaker 18 We're talking about locals telling us that rain like this had never happened in the past decades.

Speaker 18 And we also seen reports from Vietnam and Malaysia, their riverbanks cannot hold the rain, and tens of thousands displaced as well in those countries.

Speaker 18 And now, at the latest, we also see Sri Lanka now battling with storms. So, yeah, this has been quite a devastating week for the region.

Speaker 5 Astudestra Adren Rastre.

Speaker 5 70 species of sharks and rays are getting better international protection in what conservationists are saying is a historical win.

Speaker 5 Signatories to the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora, also known as CITES, have agreed the restrictions at a meeting in Uzbekistan.

Speaker 5 One of the people at the summit is Luke Warwick, a marine biologist and director of shark and ray conservation at the Wildlife Conservation Society.

Speaker 5 Ben James asked him for his reaction to the agreement.

Speaker 20 Some huge changes today for sharks and rays in terms of the ones that are going to be protected by this international convention, and it includes species such as the whale shark, obviously the largest fish in the ocean, manta rays and their close cousins, the mobular rays, and the iconic oceanic white-tip shark, formerly one of the most abundant open ocean sharks on the planet, that has declined sadly by over 90% worldwide.

Speaker 20 Sadly, many of these 70 species are already critically endangered or endangered with extinction. So, right on the edge of extinction, you know, forever.

Speaker 20 This is kind of one of the last chances we have to save them.

Speaker 14 So, what will change?

Speaker 20 The most important thing that happened today is for for the first time, CITES has recognized that some species shouldn't be traded anymore.

Speaker 20 It's offered Appendix 1, its strongest type of protection, to species such as the whale shark, manta ray, and oceanic white tip. That will phase out commercial use of these species, which is crucial.

Speaker 20 We really need these species to be treated like marine wildlife, like whales and turtles, and not as a food resource.

Speaker 1 And is that the heart of why they're threatened that they are used as food?

Speaker 20 Yeah, there are some shark and ray species that can be managed and fished sustainably around the world, but these species aren't.

Speaker 20 These species grow so incredibly slowly, much like animals you'd think of as protected on land, like bears or big cats. However, they haven't really been managed that way.

Speaker 20 They haven't really been managed at all, and that's led to these catastrophic declines.

Speaker 20 So it's fantastic to see the international community step up here and offer them that protection as the iconic ocean wildlife they really are.

Speaker 1 This doesn't affect what happens within countries, though, does it? This is just about international trade.

Speaker 1 So a country individually can decide this is absolutely fine to continue hunting these species.

Speaker 20 So, that's exactly right. And we see different things in different countries around the world.

Speaker 20 The one thing about CITES listings is because of that teeth, it really does have an impact in many countries where they really want to act. They know there's compliance measures if they don't.

Speaker 20 So, CITES won't deal with that directly. But the trigger that this action can create, really, this is just a start.
The measures here today are incredible and it's fantastic to see them.

Speaker 20 The hard work starts after this.

Speaker 5 Marine biologist Luke Warwick.

Speaker 5 Still to come, the creator of Wikipedia says he doesn't feel threatened by right-wing critics, including Elon Musk.

Speaker 16 Funding is from the general public, and every time Elon rants about us, we see a surge in donations. So it's a lot of noise, but Elon's not as powerful as he may think he is.

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Speaker 5 1700 years ago, a council of early Christian leaders met in what is now the Turkish town of Iznik to lay out the core beliefs of their religion.

Speaker 5 Today, Pope Leo traveled to the spot where that meeting took place for a special service alongside the spiritual leader of the Eastern Orthodox Churches, Patriarch Bartholomew.

Speaker 5 The Pope and Patriarch were welcomed by a choir.

Speaker 5 And when he spoke, Pope Leo repeated the message he'd shared with Turkey's President a day earlier, that religion should bring people together, not divide them.

Speaker 7 We must strongly reject the use of religion for justifying war, violence, or any form of fundamentalism or fanaticism.

Speaker 7 Instead, the paths to follow are those of fraternal encounter, dialogue, and cooperation.

Speaker 5 Reporter Emily Wither is in Iznik. She spoke to me just after the ceremony finished.

Speaker 23 The ceremony is hugely symbolic. It's the main reason why Pope Leo wanted to come to Turkey for his first overseas trip.

Speaker 23 He was honouring a promise that the late Pope Francis made, who said that he wanted to visit, before he became too unwell to do so, this town to mark this very important anniversary where 1700 years ago the first ecumenical council of Christianity took place.

Speaker 23 This meeting of church authorities in the fourth century made a written declaration of Christian beliefs called the Nicene Creed and that is still recited in churches around the world today.

Speaker 23 And we've just seen Christian leaders from all across the Middle East reciting the Nicene Creed together.

Speaker 23 And the reason that's so symbolic is because it really pushes this message of unity that Pope Leo has said he wanted to be the key theme of this trip. He stood alongside the Patriarch Bartholomew.

Speaker 23 He's the spiritual leader of the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church. And it's symbolic because the two churches split in 1054.

Speaker 23 The Orthodox Church and the Catholic Christian Church have been split for hundreds of years. But in recent years, there has been talk of greater unity.

Speaker 23 And to see all the leaders together today, we've had Christian leaders from Egypt, Israel, from Turkey, from Syria, standing and reciting the Nicene Creed is a real symbolic sign of unity at very difficult times.

Speaker 23 That's the message that Pope Leo wanted to deliver.

Speaker 5 So, a meeting of quite some significance then. Where is the Pope heading next?

Speaker 23 So, he has a few more days still here in Istanbul. He also wants to talk about greater dialogue between Christians and Muslims.
So, Turkey is a Muslim-majority country.

Speaker 23 There's less than 1% of the population here is Christian.

Speaker 23 So, tomorrow he will visit the Blue Mosque, the Sultan Ahmet Mosque in Istanbul, and then he will also hold a mass in a stadium before going on to Lebanon.

Speaker 23 And in Lebanon he's going to continue to talk about peace and unity and deliver this message to the dwindling Christian community in Lebanon that they are supported and that they are seen.

Speaker 5 Emily Wither.

Speaker 5 The co-founder of Wikipedia, Jimmy Wales, is not your average tech bro. He's not a billionaire, though the website he started in the early 2000s has become part of many people's daily lives.

Speaker 5 But in a world of AI and online polarization, the ideals that Wikipedia is based on are under threat.

Speaker 5 The BBC's Chris Valence asked Jimmy Wales whether he worried that AI could harm the integrity of Wikipedia.

Speaker 16 The community is already saying they see some AI slop coming in where people edit an article and they look at it and they're like, yeah, this looks like AI and they investigate and it's got hallucinations in it.

Speaker 16 And, you know, if you tried to do it in some sort of massive wholesale way where you're going to upload a million articles a day, well, the community would just block you very quickly.

Speaker 16 Like that level of activity would just be immediately like, hold on, that's like spamming us. It's complete nonsense.

Speaker 24 One of the things that's happened in recent months almost is that Wikipedia has become the focus of attacks from the political right. One of those leading the attacks is a co-founder of Wikipedia.

Speaker 24 You might dispute that. I know you disagree with some aspects of it, but Larry Sanger.
He was recently on Tucker Carlson laying out the case against you.

Speaker 15 You look at only the sources that are permitted to be used in Wikipedia, so mostly secondary sources, and they are mostly left-wing or center.

Speaker 15 Generally speaking, there is now a blacklist called the perennial sources page

Speaker 15 that contains contains

Speaker 15 lists

Speaker 15 of dozens of conservative sources that are just not allowed.

Speaker 16 Well, that's just false. The only way to make that seem true is if you think the Wall Street Journal and the Telegraph and The Economist are left-wing rags.

Speaker 16 Like, it's completely bonkers to say that, right? There are some sites that are frowned on as sources, but it has nothing to do with their political leanings.

Speaker 16 It just has to do with that they're not very good.

Speaker 16 And if we have a potential source that contains misinformation and errors on a regular basis, you just have to say, yeah, actually, I don't think I really want that to be the basis of an encyclopedia entry.

Speaker 24 Elon Musk was accusing you of being Wokipedia. He wants to set up his own version, Grokipedia.

Speaker 5 Does that bother you?

Speaker 16 I'm not that worried about it. I mean, his approach doesn't look very promising to me.
I think he probably is overestimating the ability of AI to write encyclopedia articles.

Speaker 16 I mean, we know that it's not possible.

Speaker 24 Do you feel under pressure from the right at the moment and from the US administration? I mean, does that feel to you

Speaker 24 like something that is a threat to Wikipedia?

Speaker 16 No, not at all. We've designed everything to maximize our intellectual independence.
And so funding is from the general public. And every time Elon rants about us, we see a surge in donations.

Speaker 16 So, you know, whatever. You know, we don't have any funding from the U.S.
federal government. We don't have funding from any governments.

Speaker 16 And we're a very dispersed, diverse community who are just loving our hobby of making an encyclopedia. So it's a lot of noise, but Elon's not as powerful as he may think he is.

Speaker 16 He can say what he wants. I don't care.

Speaker 5 Wikipedia's Jimmy Wales.

Speaker 5 Now, three Austrian nuns in their 80s who ran away from an old people's home to return to the convent that they'd been forced out of, have been told they can stay there until further notice.

Speaker 5 But the church authorities have stipulated certain conditions, as Bethany Bell reports from Vienna.

Speaker 25 Sister Bernadette, Sister Regina, and Sister Rita were the last three nuns at their convent just outside Salzburg until December 2023, when they say they were forced to leave against their will and placed in a care home.

Speaker 25 In September this year, they moved back in with the help of former students and a locksmith. This angered church officials who wanted them to return to the care home.

Speaker 25 Since then supporters have been posting videos of the nuns' daily lives at the convent, including Sister Rita's workouts with a sledgehammer and boxing gloves. They now have over 100,000 followers.

Speaker 25 After a standoff of almost three months, church officials say the nuns can stay at the convent until further notice, but only if they give up their social media activities.

Speaker 25 The nuns have not yet said if they agree to the conditions. In September, the nuns told the BBC they were determined to stay at the convent where they've spent most of their lives.

Speaker 25 Sister Bernadette told me she would rather die in an alpine meadow than in the old people's home.

Speaker 5 Bethany Bell in Vienna.

Speaker 5 Pam Hogg, this Scottish fashion designer, has died.

Speaker 5 She was known for her eccentric and outlandish outlandish designs, which have been worn by models and pop stars, including Lady Gaga, Rihanna, Bjork, and Kylie Minogue.

Speaker 5 Pam Hogg was understood to be in her 60s. She told a British newspaper a few years ago that she didn't publicly disclose her age.

Speaker 5 She spoke about one of her first influences that sparked her love for fashion.

Speaker 26 My dad was so inventive.

Speaker 26 And he had this garden shed, and he would make, you know, the most incredible things.

Speaker 26 I mean for Christmases and birthdays, he would come and present me with something and say, no one else has got one of these.

Speaker 26 So instead of feeling like you were the odd one out, like you've not got the latest, this and that, he felt really special. And that is what has driven me doing my things.

Speaker 26 And I'm sort of like giving something because that's what he gave me.

Speaker 5 Jane Hill spoke to the fashion broadcaster and writer Karen Franklin, who knew Pam Hogg well.

Speaker 6 Pam just had a kind of magical lust for life, and she visually was very stunning when she stepped into a room. You couldn't not notice her, but also her laugh, her engagement with people.

Speaker 6 It was clear that she loved people. She just was one of those people with charisma, but it wasn't superficial, it wasn't surface.

Speaker 6 It was really underpinned by a very kind of pro-social motivation for justice and fairness. And she was quite an unforgettable energy.

Speaker 5 You paint a wonderfully vivid picture there. I mean, if you think of Pam Hogg, you think colour, both in terms of what she designed and the way she presented herself.
Was that deliberate?

Speaker 5 Did she love the use of colour? Did it just go with her personality? What drove that?

Speaker 6 She worked in such a way that her clothes, which she designed pretty much on her own and made on her own, were pieces of walking art.

Speaker 6 They weren't just sort of trend-orientated, mass-produced in a way to kind of roll out. They were sort of made with love from her.
I think that's why celebrities flocked to wear her clothes.

Speaker 6 Obviously, they did a great job of delivering the red carpet statement. They were often seen in music videos, simply because they were pretty much one-offs.

Speaker 5 Did she enjoy working with so many celebrities or was that just a way of then bringing in other clients?

Speaker 6 She was very much a kind of party, clubbing, nocturnal energy.

Speaker 6 Certainly pre-internet in the early days when we all began our careers, that was our social networking, standing in the car, attracting attention because of the way you looked and what you were.

Speaker 6 And so people kind of found their way to her because she was her own walking advert. She didn't need to employ models and do expensive photo shoots.
That really wasn't the way she lived her career.

Speaker 5 Are there particular pieces, particular creations that we should remember her for or maybe she would like us to remember?

Speaker 6 Pam's kind of lycra fitted cat suits worn with platform shoes and this was kind of high craft because there were lots of little panels of different colours and often people would sort of say well I couldn't wear that And then they'd get into it and they'd style it up, and suddenly they had a garment that they treasured.

Speaker 6 That kind of counter-cultural post-punk, kind of slightly strappy, leather-studded, you know, the sort of rock and roll of fashion, if you like, was very much her signature.

Speaker 6 I've still got a pair of suede chaps shorts that you obviously have to wear with a lycra underlay because otherwise you've got a lot on show.

Speaker 6 I don't know why I've still got them because I haven't worn them for a long time, but I did like wearing them back in the day.

Speaker 5 Jane Hill and the broadcaster and writer Karen Franklin reflecting on the life and legacy of Pam Hogg.

Speaker 5 And that's all from us for now, but there will be a new edition of the Global News podcast later. If you want to comment on this podcast or the topics covered in it, you can send us an email.

Speaker 5 The address is globalpodcast at bbc.co.uk. You can also find us on X at BBC World Service.
Use the hashtag Global Newspod.

Speaker 5 This edition was mixed by Rebecca Miller, and the producer was Judy Frankel. The editor is Karen Martin.
I'm Celia Hatton. Until next time, goodbye.

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