Patrice Motsepe: Mining magnate

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Welcome to Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service.

Every episode, we pick a billionaire and we find out how they made their money.

Then we judge them.

Are they good, bad, or just another billionaire?

My name is Zing Sing and I'm a journalist, author, and podcaster.

And I'm Simon Jack.

I'm the BBC's business editor.

And on this episode, we have South Africa's first ever black billionaire.

And he remains the country's only black billionaire, in fact.

His father was the chief of a royal clan within the Tswana tribe.

So as well as being a king of business, he's also a prince.

And he's also married to one of South Africa's most fashionable women.

His sister is the current First Lady of South Africa.

And besides being incredibly well connected, he has also made a few customary billionaire purchases, which includes a wine farm, a $200,000 Bentley, and of course, a football team.

Always got to have a sports team.

And in fact, he's the president of the Confederation of African Football himself.

All of this means that in South Africa, he's become a celebrity and the poster child for wealth and success.

We are talking about Patrice Matzepe, a man for whom his name has become a byword for money.

So after payday in South Africa, people will apparently say, I'm Matzepe's son or daughter, or parents will tell their kids, presumably after they request a new PlayStation, I am not Matsepe.

Who do you think I am?

Yeah, I love that.

Forbes, the American Business Magazine, named him one of the hundred greatest living business minds in the world.

Quite an accolade.

But for some critics, Patrice Matzepe has become an oligarch who symbolizes the inequality in post-apartheid South Africa, which is, by the way, still one of the world's most unequal societies.

And you know, in this podcast series, we've often looked at people who've been in the middle of economic, cultural, technological change.

And in a way, he represents at least two of those in cultural and economic terms in South Africa.

So is Patrice Matzepe good, bad, or just another billionaire?

We'll find out.

Let's go back to the beginning.

Patrice Matzepe was born in 1962 in apartheid South Africa.

So South Africa had been under apartheid since 1948, a system of institutionalized racial segregation.

His father had been a high school teacher, his mother was a nurse, and he was the second of seven kids.

And importantly, his father was also a critic of the apartheid regime.

Patrice had actually been named after Patrice Lumumba, one of the first black African post-colonial leaders of the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

Now, because of this, the apartheid government forced the family to move to a rural area north of Pretoria where his father's criticisms wouldn't attract so much attention and cause trouble.

And his dad left teaching, he opened up a grocery shop and soon expanded the business to include a restaurant and a beer hall.

Yeah, and Patrice actually said, people don't know that there were very successful black businessmen in the years of apartheid.

Whenever my father made a profit, he always plowed it back into the store.

And he did something that is quite common among our billionaires.

So he actually worked in the family business.

On school holidays, Patrice would help out in the shop.

And his dad actually joked that they made so much money when Patrice was behind the counter, he should just take over.

Yeah, like you say, in common with some of our other billionaires, he had a very hard work ethic.

He said it was hard work from 6 a.m.

to 8 p.m.

I soon realized I needed to choose a career that would keep me away from that shop.

So that's how I came to decide when I was only eight that I would become a lawyer.

It's quite a thing to decide at the age of eight to become a lawyer.

I'm not sure I even knew what a lawyer did when I was eight.

I wanted to be a stockbroker when I was nine.

Well, I

actually

have nothing to say about that.

Where did you learn about the job of a stockbroker?

Well, it was because there were all these share prices in the newspapers, and I didn't know what they were.

And basically, I watched them go up and down.

You know, I was just fascinated by just the numbers of it, to be honest.

So, I'm really outing myself as a sort of capitalist freak.

I kind of like that, though.

I think we'd need at least one capitalist freak on the podcast.

So, Patrice's parents were determined that their children would receive the best education possible.

Now, living under apartheid, they were supposed to send their children to a government school which specified black children only be trained for manual labour and menial jobs.

A horrible regime.

And this is a real fork in the road for Patrice because his future would have...

probably turned out quite differently if he'd gone to that school.

But instead, Patrice's parents sent their children to an Afrikaans language Catholic boarding school some 700 kilometers away.

Yeah, it was officially designated for South Africans of mixed race who were then known under the apartheid regime as coloureds, which Patrice was not categorised as, but his parents managed to pull some strings and get him an exemption.

And it was at the school Patrice showed a talent for football.

He played for local youth teams.

Some thought he actually might become a football star, but he always concentrated on school.

He said, even at school, I had to be first.

For me, it was always about hard work, blood, and sweat, and coming out on top.

The coming out on top is an interesting thing to add.

Yeah, and also a common denominator with many of our billionaires.

And so he studied that law degree that he wanted to study.

In 1983, he attended the University of the Witwatersand in Johannesburg to get a further degree that would allow him to practice law.

And this still being under the apartheid regime, the university was designated as being whites only.

And so Patrice had to get a special permit to attend, meaning he was one of the very few black graduates on this course.

And he shares that with a very famous former pupil there, Nelson Mandela, had been one of the first black students on that course way back in the 1940s.

And it seemed then that Patrice was on track to become what he always wanted to be, a lawyer.

After graduating in 1988, Patrice joined Bowman Gilfillen, one of South Africa's largest corporate law firms.

And this is where he first comes into contact with what will make him his fortune, because that company, that firm, dealt with mining company contracts.

So Patrice was gaining inside knowledge of South Africa's mining industry.

And it was while he was practicing law at that firm that he actually tried to buy a small-scale mining operation, but no one would lend him the money.

This, however, would not be the end of it.

He was a very smart guy in 1991.

He got a prestigious two-year exchange program in Virginia in the United States after being recommended as a superstar.

And when he finally returned to South Africa to his law firm, it was at the point of a huge moment for the country.

The African National Congress, or ANC for short, the political party opposed to apartheid, had been banned by the South African government since 1960, and ANC leader Nelson Mandela famously had been in prison since 1962.

But all this was changing when Patrice went home.

In 1990, the ANC was unbanned, Mandela was freed, and in 1994, the ANC won South Africa's first fully democratic election, the first time in history that black South Africans had been able to vote in a national election.

So he's becoming an influential lawyer at a huge moment for the country, and he's got intimate knowledge of what is South Africa's biggest industry.

He said at the time, I suddenly got restless and had to find a new goal.

My shop work from my childhood came back to haunt me.

So I decided now I have to become an entrepreneur and tackle something on my own.

Yeah, and that again is a hallmark of our billionaires: that no one's ever going to pay you enough to be on our list.

You've got to build something yourself.

So he left the law firm to join the mining trade.

He founded a company he called Future Mining, and he asked mining bosses, what was the worst job on the mine?

And then he asks if he can do it.

Quite an interesting way to eventually build your way to the top.

It reminds me a bit of that show, Undercover Boss.

Yeah, sort of like, I literally want to start at the bottom.

So it turns out that Future Mining provided contract services to clean gold dust from inside the mine shafts.

I have to say, this does not sound glamorous at all.

Well, when you say gold dust, you usually think that does sound like so quite glamorous, but I've got a feeling this was not.

No, I get a feeling it's very hard on the lungs.

So apparently it used low-level labor.

You were literally just sweeping up this gold dust with brooms after the industrial mining crews got in there and did what they did.

Yeah, so he struggled to make money initially.

For nine months, he said, I couldn't even afford an office.

They used to call me the suitcase man because I worked out of my briefcase, literally.

But remember, we talked about how some of our billionaires come up during these pivotal moments in history.

Well, the tide of South African history was on Patrice's side because mining was set to change under the new ANC government.

And as a mining lawyer, Patrice would have been aware that changes were coming.

Yeah, he would have seen which way the wind was blowing and where to position himself.

So once in power, the ANC introduced something called Black Economic Empowerment, BEE, or BEE, and it was a sort of affirmative action to redress decades of discrimination and the inequalities of apartheid.

BEE provided incentives to businesses which contributed to black economic empowerment.

So for instance, they would get preferential treatment when it came to government procurement processes.

And it didn't come into legal force until 2003.

But in the 90s, you started seeing a bunch of voluntary initiatives.

And the Financial Times at the time said BEE represents one of the largest voluntary shifts of assets in modern history on a par with the massive privatizations that follow the demise of communism in Eastern Europe.

Interesting parallel.

So this is the context in which future mining Patrice's business grows and becomes more successful.

But by 1997, he wants to expand into owning, not just sweeping, mines.

Yeah, so he found something called African Rainbow Minerals Arm with venture capital off the back of future mining.

And he sees an opportunity.

The price of gold was falling, tanking, really plummeting.

So a big mining company, Anglo Gold, was looking to dispose of some of its loss-making mine shafts, including one in Orkney, a mining town in South Africa.

The seller, however, which was Anglo's chairman, Harry Oppenheimer, then one of the richest people in the world and South Africa's foremost industrialist, didn't actually think Patrice was up to it.

Patrice says, Harry Oppenheimer was very polite, but he said to me, what makes you think you are going to make money where Anglo has not?

Yeah, but fortunately, an important person in this story, the chief executive of gold and uranium for Anglo, Bobby Godsell, knew Patrice from his contracting work and had been impressed by his doggedness and resolution.

So all that sweeping, contract sweeping, proved to be something that helped him in the long run.

Clearly paid off.

However, there was this small issue, which was the price of all these shafts.

Bidding started at $8.2 million, $16 million in today's money, which was actually more money than Patrice had.

And he was moving into gold, as we said, at a time when the price of gold was dropping, which looks business-wise insane.

In fact, no one would lend to him.

And the bank said, are you mad?

But Bobby wanted to help black South Africans get into business.

He says, I was seeking to create capitalists out of people who had no capital.

That is incredibly enlightened for someone who is the chief executive of gold and uranium for one of the world's biggest mining companies.

And also at a time when, you know, South Africa was just coming out of the apartheid regime as well.

Yeah.

Incredibly progressive.

Yeah.

So he gave the loss-making Orkney mining operations to Patrice, who agreed to pay the $8.2 million

back with a percentage of future profits in the future.

So, I mean, pretty big gamble for all parties.

Bobby Godsell's taking a chance on Patrice.

Patrice is taking a chance on being able to turn a profit in a market where the price of what he's getting out of the ground is falling and he's going to have to pay back a chunk of any future profits in order to pay for it.

So a real roll of the dice for many people concerned.

But when people hear the word gold, people just think, well, that's always going to be valuable.

So was it that much of a risk?

Did they always know it was going to go back up?

It depends on your cost base.

Getting gold out of the ground is a pretty daunting undertaking in terms of equipment, labor, etc.

It's dangerous, especially in those days.

So if the price of the commodity you're trying to dig out does not cover the cost of you digging it out of the ground you are almost guaranteed to go bust and lose money because gold is one of those really weird things there's only so much of it there's a finite supply of it in the world i'm told that all the gold in the world and still in the ground would fill two olympic swimming pools and that's it and for that reason it's often seen as a store of value and in some cases a hedge against inflation because you can't make any more of it you can print more money you can't print any more gold the digital version of that these days is Bitcoin.

So it's gold versus Bitcoin at the moment.

I don't know.

I'd rather put my money against gold, personally speaking.

But then I am one of those people who thinks, oh, wouldn't it be nice to have a gold ingot underneath the bed just in case society collapses?

I did a whole documentary about gold.

Somebody came up and said, if you put it in your hand, it feels so heavy.

It's like having a little piece of the sun in your hand, is the way someone put it.

Interesting.

If gold wasn't shiny and golden, would we care so much about it?

We care so much.

Anyway, so gold prices continued to fall steeply in the first few months of his venture.

So he set about cutting costs.

He cut his management staff in half and he gave jobs to only 5,000 out of 7,500 employees at the mine, which did not go down well.

No, it caused a backlash.

And in fact, the then president of the Mine Workers Union said the deal was not black empowerment at all.

What's empowering about a black owner coming in and cutting the workforce?

Patrice's strategy, however, from a business perspective, worked.

He actually made the shafts profitable in their first year.

And partly this was due to a novel pay system he implemented for his workers, lower base salary, but a profit-sharing bonus that could double their pay.

He said the only reason we survived was that our management style was fundamentally low cost.

And he thought this model would help incentivize production, giving everyone a share in the profits, makes them work that little bit harder, perhaps.

And indeed, productivity rose by 39%.

It's a motto used in quite a lot of business, isn't it?

Well, the one I can think of that jumps out at me weirdly is investment banking.

Because actually, even though the base salaries are pretty high, the bonuses can be very, very high indeed.

And so everyone is extremely incentivized to try and get in as much business and work on as many deals as possible.

But all of this meant he turns a profit in the first year.

So he's able to pay back the $8 million to Anglo through profits within just three years.

And we know that by 2001, his company must have been making tens of millions.

And so, just five years after founding African Rainbow Minerals Gold, it had become the fifth largest gold producer in South Africa and he listed on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange.

And in 2002, the newspaper All Africa ran a story headlined, Bet Your Bottom Dollar They're Millionaires.

In fact, South Africa now had 25,000 dollar millionaires.

And just to put that in some worldwide context, there were 7 million total dollar millionaires at the time.

Half of all Africa's dollar millionaires were South African, thanks to its enormous mineral wealth.

And Patrice was at the very top of the South African dollar millionaire list.

So by 2002, age 40, Patrice is a millionaire.

And he's done it all off that shiny commodity, gold.

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So how does he get from a million to a billion?

Remember that until now, black economic empowerment legislation had been voluntary throughout the 90s.

But at this point in 2003, it's coming into legal effect and that is about to turbocharge his riches.

Because the mining charter required companies to have a minimum 26% black ownership before a license would be granted.

And this was something that Patrice immediately capitalized on as he began to diversify his mining portfolio.

So moving out, not just doing gold.

Yeah, so he is, like we said, on the cusp of a massive cultural and economic change in South Africa, and he is in exactly the right place.

He expanded the gold mining business by joining forces with one of the world's biggest and white-run gold mining producers, Harmony.

In fact, he actually merged with Harmony, one of the mining sector's biggest empowerment deals.

So his company, African Rainbow Minerals, ends up controlling almost 20% of this big, huge merged company, Harmony.

And Patrice becomes the non-executive chairman.

And he starts moving into other metals, right?

So, not just gold, nickel, chrome, iron, manganese, and platinum.

He partnered 50-50 with Anglo-Platinum, the world's largest producer of platinum, to produce a new platinum mine.

And interestingly, he gave a 17% stake in the mine to two non-profit groups representing the surrounding communities.

We may discuss that when it comes to his philanthropic endeavours.

Yeah, we should.

And by 2004, Patrice was described in African Business magazine as a shining beacon of the country's black economic empowerment.

He'd become almost a symbol of this policy.

And Patrice's success gave other companies confidence that he could be their first black partner so he could push into even more areas.

And Patrice didn't stop with mining.

He moved into financial services.

He created Ubuntu Butu Investments, UBI, which then entered into a black empowerment deal with one of the largest insurance and financial services in Africa called Sanlam.

Patrice became the majority shareholder and non-executive deputy chairman.

So he's really kind of spreading those tentacles around, like snaffling up loads of new resources.

Yeah, he was becoming known as this rich, powerful figure in post-apartheid South Africa, the poster child, if you like, for a change in regime, both socially and economically.

And both the Financial Times and Time magazine ran features about the new B Tycoons, noting how they were members of the once white-only elite Gentlemen's Rand Club, a club in central Johannesburg.

So really a symbol of the kind of changeover of wealth in South Africa.

I've never been to the Gentleman's Rand Club, but I imagine it's kind of like the Oil Barons Club in Dallas.

You're too young to remember Dallas, aren't you?

Yes, sadly.

But I sort of have an idea of what Dallas is.

Is it people with

people kind of chomping on cigars?

Exactly so.

Drinking whiskey on rocks.

Exactly, exactly, that kind of thing.

Patrice was named one of the fab four black South African businessmen, along with Saki Maksoma, Tokyo Seswale, and Cyril Ramaposa.

That name may ring a bell.

Of course, he's the current South African president.

But the BEE policies and those who capitalised and made enormous wealth off them were actually controversial.

Critics argued that it enriched just a few black people rather than the many black South Africans.

And in fact, that was supported by data from the IMF, which said that inequality actually increased in the early 2000s post-apartheid and has remained high ever since.

Meanwhile, its peers in other emerging markets have been able to make inroads into reducing inequality.

And the Archbishop Desmond Tutu himself said in his 2004 Nelson Mandela annual lecture, what is black empowerment when it seems to benefit not the vast majority, but a small elite that tends to be recycled?

Are we not building up much resentment that we may rule later?

Yeah, so the criticism is you are simply replacing one elite with another elite without the spoils of this economic revolution being felt more equally.

And that's a society where all black South Africans were marginalized and economically disempowered.

But when the empowering came around, it only benefited a small minority.

Yeah, and in fact, some critics felt that white businesses were rather cynically exploiting the political connections of the black tycoons.

Have you seen Killers of the Flower Moon?

Have you seen that movie?

Yes.

It reminds me of that in the sense that some white business people would

hitch themselves to First Nation Americans who had been given particular land rights and they would basically piggyback on that in order to get what they were after.

It's funny how this always seems to happen with minerals, doesn't it?

Oil, things that you can get out of the ground.

Yeah.

Moiletsi Mbeki, brother of then President Tabo Mbeki, was a vocal critic, calling it anti-competitive and crony capitalism.

He said the oligarchs are now trying to deracialize their club by buying black members into their oligarchies.

Oligarchic control is not a road to development, it's a road to disaster.

But those defending the BEE policy said it was not designed as a poverty relief scheme.

Instead, the government was trying to tackle unemployment, hunger, poverty, and unequal access to education under other programmes.

So kind of holding the hands up and saying, this wasn't meant to fix anything.

This wasn't socialism.

This was never meant to be socialism.

This was meant to basically give an equality of opportunity to succeed in a capitalist society to those who'd not been able to participate before.

And Patrice himself has said he benefited from the system, but argues his success wasn't on the basis of handouts because he began building that mining business before the law started taking effect.

Yeah.

He says the legislation came way after we did our deals.

But as we said before, he was in a position where he could see which way the wind was coming so he could anticipate some of the moves that were coming down the road, perhaps.

Interestingly, he also added, the system of creating opportunities for those who were by law excluded, you've got to do that.

But you mustn't create a perception that the process is devoid of competitiveness, devoid of building a sustainable black business community.

Yeah.

Meanwhile, Patrice was doing very well in the mid-2000s.

He treats himself.

So he indulges in a passion of his, football.

He buys the Mamalodi's Sundowns football club.

Yeah, how much?

He bought it in two rounds.

So it was reported that 49% of it cost him 65 million rand, around $10 million back then.

So perhaps about 20 million.

Yeah, and the Sundowns had been three times winners of the South African Premier League.

So they'd had success in the past, but they were in mid-table obscurity when he bought them.

But within a couple of years, the club was back winning the league for two seasons in a row.

It's funny how rich owners can sort of turn around results.

I know.

I'm talking about you, Manchester City.

Just a little aside there.

While we're currently discussing his interests outside of mining, it's worth also diving into his impressive family.

So back in 1989, he married Precious Malloy, with whom he has three children.

She was a doctor who specialized in children's and women's health, but by the 2000s, she had transitioned to become a fashion entrepreneur and was seen as one of South Africa's most glamorous women.

They are seen as something of a power couple.

We were trying to think of the equivalent of a power couple in business and fashion.

Posh and Bex?

You got the fashion bit there from Posh?

A little bit of football from Bex, but I can't really think of a comparison.

I think that Jay-Z and Beyoncé would consider themselves entrepreneurs as well as musicians.

That's true.

And Jay-Z is one of our billionaires as well.

Yeah.

Have a listen to that episode if you like to go back into the archive.

Lots to listen to there.

But let's get back to Patrice and his wife.

So a couple of Patrice's sisters are also noteworthy in their own right.

Sepo Motsepe, a doctor, is actually the current First Lady of South Africa.

She's married to President Sirum Ramaposa.

And then another sister, Bridget Radibi, is also married to an influential minister in the ANC government and is also herself a mining magnate.

She founded Macau Mining, making her South Africa's first black female mining entrepreneur and one of the richest people in the country.

This is quite some family.

They've got a lot of power and influence.

Very illustrious.

But let's go back to Patrice.

How does he finally make it to the billionaire leagues?

His profits are now soaring due to the 2000s Asian commodities boom.

As China was expanding, their appetite for everything-copper, gold, platinum, etc., nickel, saw the price of metals rise ever higher because you've got this huge demand as China industrializes and expands.

So, for instance, in 2006, the gold price was at its highest level in 26 years.

In 2007, African Rainbow Minerals revenue was 875 million US dollars, and the next year, the company's share price doubled.

Remember, Patrice owns 42% of that.

So, all of this means that in 2008, Forbes featured Patrice on the cover of their prestigious billionaire list issue, declaring him worth $2.4 billion.

It made him one of only three South Africans on the list at that time, the country's first black billionaire.

So, age 46, Patrice has joined our club.

He's a billionaire.

But he doesn't just stay there.

So we have to take his story to beyond a billion.

So what does he do now that he's reached those ranks?

He doesn't rest on his laurels.

He diversifies even further.

Yeah, he sees which way the world was heading once again.

And our mining magnate, mining, often seen as a dirty,

highly emitting, rather grubby way of making a living.

He now gets into renewable energy.

He's Mr.

Green.

Green.

And in 2012, he founds African Rainbow Energy and Power, AREP, which focuses on renewables like hydro, solar, and wind.

He also starts his own private equity firm, African Rainbow Capital Investments, that focuses investing in Africa.

And it grows a portfolio of nearly 50 companies, which includes banking, telecommunications, property, agriculture.

By 2017, it's listed on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange.

He even diversifies into sport, becoming a joint major shareholder in rugby team, the Bulls.

Not just football, but also rugby.

But he also doesn't forget about his first love.

In fact, in 2021, he was elected president of the Confederation of African Football, which is the sport's governing body on the whole continent.

He was also the founding president of Business Unity South Africa.

It's a group representing corporate interests.

And because of this, he attends the World Economic Forum at Davos in Switzerland, which is basically a little, a tiny little village in the Alps in Switzerland, becomes home to the world's global elite.

I have to confess, I've been a few times.

It's like, if you want to go and find big corporate leaders, this is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Is it a bit like Disneyland for billionaires?

Kind of, but you also get lots of NGOs, lots of charities.

They realize this is where the most influential and the richest people in the world are.

And once you get into the compound, you can walk around and Bill Gates will just walk right by you, or Elon Musk will walk by you.

Or one time when I was there, Donald Trump walked right by me.

Wow.

He did have a security detail.

But Bill Gates was just walking along as if he was on his way to get a bus.

It's this like Glastonbury VIP area, but instead of musicians and celebrities, it's rich and influential people.

It's exactly like that.

You see some of the richest people in the world slipping on the ice and trying to get their boots on and off.

I would pay to see that.

Funny you mentioned Trump, though, because it was actually...

In 2020 at Davos that Patrice got into hot water at a dinner.

He actually praised Trump, telling him, Africa loves America.

Africa loves you.

We want America to do well.

We want you to do well.

Trump would have loved that.

I know, but remember, Trump, he made some very disparaging remarks about places in Africa.

And in fact, Patrice actually had to apologize after those comments because they got widespread criticism.

As, yeah, many people in Africa thought that Trump had actually disparaged the whole continent.

Yeah.

But this year has been good to Patrice.

In June 2024, his net worth jumped by $600 million in just 90 days, thanks to the increase in African rainbow minerals share price and i have to say gold has been setting new record prices day after day this year so i think that his net worth will have continued to rise they think he's worth around three billion dollars making him still the richest black south african and along with his wife patrice has become something of a celebrity now in south africa people actually come up to him and ask for selfies and autographs yeah but on his success patrice has said there's a huge amount of artificiality in this business you could be worth two billion dollars today and half a billion tomorrow It doesn't take much for this to disappear overnight.

Half a billion tomorrow.

Oh dear.

Yeah, truly, you'd be on the streets with that amount of money.

So there we have him, Patrice Mozzepe, richest black billionaire in Africa.

Is he good, bad, or just another billionaire?

Let us go through our categories.

We start and we score them out of 10.

So we start with our first category, which is wealth, not just how much money are they worth, but how do they spend it?

Yeah.

So at $3 billion, which is the latest one we've got, although I suspect it's a bit more than that now, he's kind of entry-level billionaire.

We've got people who've got over 200 billion on our list, but there aren't very many black African billionaires.

So he's one of a very select group within his continent.

Yes, and he's number one in South Africa, which to me, I think, pushes him beyond the level of just being a mere entry-level

that he's become in Africa a kind of byword for riches and success.

You know, I'm no Motzepe says the parent when their kids ask them for stuff, or I feel like Mozepe's son whenever you get paid means that he has stamped his image, if you like, on that of wealth in Africa.

It's almost like he's become synonymous with the idea of someone who's made a lot of money.

Yeah, it's like say I'm not Rockefeller or something like that.

In the US, it would have been Rockefeller or Elon Musk now.

So he's in that category within Africa.

I feel like for me, he scores quite highly on this then.

Yeah.

For me, it's...

probably a seven out of ten.

I'm going to go with you.

I think seven is exactly the number I had in my mind as well.

So seven out of ten from both of us.

Rags to riches.

How far has he traveled from humble origins to where he is now?

Now, he had a very hard-working and reasonably profitable.

He said that actually there were black businesses that were making profits back even during the apartheid era.

And they had a store which clearly did okay.

He worked hard.

So I don't think rags is quite right, but he's obviously come an awfully long way.

So I think he still scores quite highly in this.

I think so too, because, you know, he grew up under a system that essentially disenfranchised people like him.

You know, the odds were very much stacked against him and his family, but he still made it to the very heights of South African wealth.

Yeah.

So for me, I think he scores a six out of ten.

Six out of ten.

I'm going to give him

seven.

Right.

So a slight difference, but we're on the same page here.

Yeah.

And now we come to villainy, which is interesting.

Yeah.

So he seems to be an approachable, non-lavish person who has tried to create

wealth and opportunity and a sense of black ownership of capital in Africa.

On the other hand, you could argue he is the symbol of one elite replacing another.

And that's where he's drawn criticism.

Interestingly, he's also been criticized as being a comprador capitalist.

So compradors are people who kind of work in between companies to, you know, make everyone richer.

Because I think the idea is that he worked with white-owned companies under this new legislation in post-apartheid South Africa to make sure that these white-owned companies still could make money.

So there's a criticism in that as well.

Yeah, I suppose that in a way this gets to the core of our show because we've talked about whether the very existence of billionaires are in themselves a symbol of crushing inequality and that it's just a terrible way to run a planet when some have so much and others have so little.

And maybe that's shown into really sharp relief in a country like South Africa with its history and you've changed that almost overnight or in the case of a decade or two does being a BEE black empowerment oligarch make you ultimately a villain Desmond Tutu would say maybe yeah I think this all depends on where you fall on the capital to anti-capital scale doesn't it yeah I don't think he's you know I mean he's working in a system he didn't create it he played it he played it very well played it very well well.

And is, you know, is he complicit in just replacing one elite with another?

We're probably asking an awful lot of him to not work with the system that was changing for the better, let's face it.

One thing I also want to add is that mining, which is where he made all his money, is also a very dirty and dangerous business.

So there have actually been issues of some of his mines.

In 2000, a tunnel collapse killed six people in one of those Orkney gold mines because of a seismic event.

So nine more people were trapped underground for four days, which sounds honestly hellish.

It was described as an accident.

I can't find any legal case brought against African Rainbow Minerals, but a National Union of Mine Workers spokesperson said at the time that the safety precautions taken at the mine were not adequate.

So we can't find a response from the company about this incident, but on the Guardian's reporting of the event, they do quote Patrice himself, who said, a grave concern to us is that these two miners were seriously injured at the time of the seismic event.

Information received thus far is not very encouraging.

Mining is a dangerous business and it's dangerous wherever you go.

If you go to China, there's been some terrible mining disasters, but South African mines claim an average of one life every day and are considered to be among some of the most dangerous in the world.

So more work to do on the safety front for sure.

There have also been accusations of corruption.

So because of who his illustrious sisters are married to, there have been some accusations that Patrice's energy company, AREP, benefited from state-run contracts without following proper procurement processes.

Patrice himself, however, has denied these claims and described them as ridiculous.

However, he did acknowledge there was a fundamental perception problem which would persist as long as his brothers-in-law held the positions of president and energy minister.

So a complex portrait of someone who has definitely benefited from changing political and economic headwinds in his own country.

Yeah, and is incredibly well connected and is undoubtedly part of a new elite.

Villain?

Not so sure.

Oh, it's a hard one.

I think you're right in saying that all he did was play the system and play it very, very well.

I mean, it's what I think any of us would have really done if we were in his situation.

Yeah, I'm going to give him a four for villainy.

I feel a little bit more ambivalent, so I'm going to go for five out of ten, I think.

Okay, four and a five.

Let's move on to philanthropy.

He founded the Mozepe Foundation in 1999 to help poor, unemployed women, youth, workers, and marginalised South Africans.

It's hard to find any solid numbers on this, but it's definitely giving away tens of millions each to different causes.

That's pretty good.

That does seem promising.

And he was also the first African to sign Bill Gates and Warren Buffett's giving pledge, promising to give at least half his fortune away to charity in his lifetime.

And he did that in 2013.

And that giving pledge is becoming a bit of a litmus test of philanthropy in many ways.

In his letter, which he wrote, he says he was inspired by the African belief system of Ubuntu, which translates to, I am because you are, meaning individuals need other people to be fulfilled.

Exactly how much he's given away is less clear, as we said.

Interestingly, he announced when he was signing the pledge, he tried to reassure his shareholders at the same time.

He said, I decided quite some time ago to give at least half of the funds generated by our family assets to uplift poor and other disadvantaged and marginalized South Africans, but was also duty bound and committed to ensuring that it would be done in a way that protects the interest and retains the confidence of our shareholders and investors.

These are the kind of things you need to to bear in mind when you're a billionaire trying to give away your money, which is quite an interesting insight, I think.

And also, remember when we were telling his story, he gave 17% of one of the companies into some non-profit organizations.

So it's not like he's just got to the top of the hill and then decided to give it away.

He's got some form on that.

He is giving back.

So I think for me, he scores quite highly.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't know.

Maybe some people will say the giving pledge is just PR for billionaires.

Yeah.

But it wrecks quite highly for me.

Yeah, I'm going to give him a seven and a half.

Seven and a a half.

I don't know if we've ever given 0.5s on this podcast before.

Okay, I'm going to try.

See, I don't think there's any rules about this.

I'm going to go seven and a half.

No, true.

We make the ruse.

I'm going to stick with the system we've laid out.

Maybe that's very conservative of me, but I'll give him a seven out of ten.

Okey-doky.

Power, interesting one.

Clearly, one of the tests we do this is, can you pick up the phone and call a head of state?

In his case, most definitely.

Oh, he sees the head of state at Christmas,

probably New Year, kids' birthday parties.

Yeah, so in terms of power within Africa, he's got to score really, really highly.

And also, because the rest of the world wants to embrace Africa, if you are probably, I bet he's met Xi Jinping.

You know about China's expansion into Africa and particularly into the natural resources area.

I'm willing to bet, I don't know this for sure, that he might have met President Xi.

I feel like...

he scores highly.

I feel like I might even give him an eight out of 10.

Yeah, me too.

I'm right up there.

But definitely an eight for me.

He clearly wields enormous power and influence.

He's probably on a group chat with the president.

Yes.

And then we have Legacy.

How will he be remembered?

I think it's the poster child of the rise of rich black Africa out of apartheid.

He's probably going to be, he was a trailblazer.

He still is a figurehead.

I think he will be known for a long time.

Maybe he's like, you know, I'm guessing that in,

as we've already said, his name is a byword for success, like Rockefeller was for decades in the US.

So legacy, I'm going to say seven at least.

What I find so interesting is, you know, that phrase, I'm not Mozzeppe.

When you say to your kids when they ask for more money, I mean, that to me.

signifies you've kind of gone just beyond being big in the business world and you've now entered the mainstream consciousness.

So, you know, maybe he will be Africa's Rockefeller.

He's still got several years left to make money.

He'll be alive for a while yet.

I think for me, he'll be an eight out of ten in terms of legacy.

Yeah, I'll give him an eight as well.

So this is a tricky one.

Good, bad, or just another billionaire.

Someone who's played the system, but a system which has emerged from a poisonous regime ofpartheid.

And, you know, even though he did start out in mining, which was a dirty and dangerous business, he is expanding into renewable energy.

Yeah, and bear in mind that mining is one of the only games in town in South Africa when it comes to industry.

Oh, I don't know, though.

I keep going back to those words by Archbishop Desmond Tutu.

When, you know, the Archbishop is sort of coming out against the way you've made money, it kind of gives me pause for thought.

Yeah, I'm going to say he did what any other billionaire would do.

He played the system to his best advantage and made a ton of money.

That makes him just another billionaire.

I think I'd agree with that.

just another billionaire for me who made a lot of money and is probably positioned to make quite a lot of money more in the years to come.

For sure.

If the gold price keeps going up the way it is, he's getting richer as we speak.

So Patrice Mozepe, you are just another billionaire.

Who's our next billionaire?

You may have heard about his son's incredibly lavish million-dollar wedding.

Yeah, everyone was there.

Tony Blair, Kim Kardashian.

You, Zing Zhang?

Sadly not.

My invite got lost in the post, but Rihanna took my place.

Very nice of her.

Oh yeah, she was paid a cool $9 million for a pretty short set, I'm imagining.

And it went on for months, this wedding.

Yep, there was a pre-wedding celebration, a post-wedding celebration, and of course, the wedding itself.

Yeah, and the person responsible for paying for that is our billionaire for next time, Mukesh Ambani, worth a staggering $115 billion.

Really top of the tree.

Good, Bad Billionaire was produced by Hannah Hufford and Louise Morris, with additional production support from Emma Betteridge.

James Cook is the editor, and it's a BBC Studios production for BBC World Service.

For the BBC World Service, the senior podcast producer is Kat Collins and the podcast commissioning editor is John Minnell.

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