Episode 1: Porn Meets the Internet

Transcript

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Speaker 26 Okay,

Speaker 1 we're going to start with a warning.

Speaker 27 This series is full of adult themes and has some graphic sex talk.

Speaker 1 Now, you know, let's get into it.

Speaker 1 How did it feel to you to be taken over by a company that no one knew anything about?

Speaker 28 Well, the deeper I got into it, the more concerned I became about just the general level of secrecy around the company.

Speaker 28 The money has to move, sometimes from a personal account, sometimes from a business account. That sounded a bit sketchy to me.

Speaker 28 If you play that fast and loose in that environment, I have to assume that you're playing that fast and loose in every environment.

Speaker 1 That environment she's talking about,

Speaker 1 it's pornography. Kelly Holland would know.
She's been a fixture of the porn industry since the 90s. She even ran one of its most famous brands, Penthouse.

Speaker 1 That is, until she lost it to a mystery investor.

Speaker 1 And for the industry at large, does it matter that you have these conglomerates that are buying loads of the industry and we don't really know who owns these companies?

Speaker 28 I don't think it's healthy. I think it's very problematic.

Speaker 28 It's healthy for somebody's bottom line and it's healthy for shareholders, but I don't think it's healthy for clients, consumers, and the general climate.

Speaker 28 You know, you can make a choice in business to be friendly competitors, which is the healthiest way to go and the most profitable way to go, or you can be enemies.

Speaker 1 I'm Patricia Nilsson, and I'm a reporter for the Financial Times. I write about business.
Some days it's a fashion chain, on others it's tobacco or a cannabis startup.

Speaker 1 But recently, my job has mainly involved porn. I started writing about the industry about three years ago, but I have to admit, this last year it's become an obsession.

Speaker 1 Business papers don't usually write about the porn industry, even though it basically owns a big corner of the internet. That in itself made me curious.

Speaker 1 Why wouldn't we write about porn, just like we do with any other legal industry? And I think it's because no one really likes to talk about porn. We're embarrassed to.

Speaker 1 Even though most of us have watched it at some point, it's taboo.

Speaker 1 And so I started where any business reporter would. This is just an industry with companies, right?

Speaker 1 I can normally figure out who the owners are, how much money they make, how they're regulated, but porn?

Speaker 26 It turned out that porn was world apart.

Speaker 1 The whole industry depends on performers to literally bear it all, but basic information about the businesses who run the industry are kept like a state secret.

Speaker 1 I kept finding names that weren't names, and companies that weren't companies. It often felt like I was wandering around a maze.

Speaker 1 You know that strange sense of never knowing where you're heading or how anything's connected? Turns that lead to unexpected places? Like those murky transactions that Kelly Holland talked about.

Speaker 1 What were they for?

Speaker 1 What were they hiding?

Speaker 1 Who or what is behind the business of porn?

Speaker 1 And you know what? The Financial Times, we call it the FT, they encouraged me to keep going, to report this out. And my boss?

Speaker 1 He got sucked in too.

Speaker 29 That's me, Alex Barker.

Speaker 27 I manage Patricia's team of business reporters, but my main job is writing about the media industry, the Murdochs, Netflix, that kind of thing.

Speaker 27 When Patricia asked to look into porn, I knew it wasn't exactly the FT's cup of tea, but it was different and intriguing and only career-threatening if we really botched it up.

Speaker 27 So I said, sure, see what you can find.

Speaker 27 And bit by bit, This story of the power behind porn drew me in too. It started with a routine email from Patricia, a little update on her reporting with a bombshell buried halfway down.

Speaker 27 She said, I think I've found the secret owner of the world's biggest porn company. And she had.

Speaker 27 But it was just the first turn in that maze. Once we started following the leads, we soon realized we weren't just tracking one man or one company.
but power. And that's when I really got hooked.

Speaker 27 Because this industry has outsized influence, truly enormous, over our culture, over the way my kids learn about sex, over almost 8%

Speaker 27 of all internet traffic.

Speaker 1 So as journalists, we decided to give the subject the time it deserves. We'd report on the business of porn in the kind of way the FT would report on any other industry.

Speaker 1 We wanted to work out who made online porn what it is today, understand who the real decision makers are, are. What's driving their choices.
Basically, to work out who rules porn.

Speaker 27 We spent months roving around. We interviewed bankers, porn stars, bankers who became porn stars, even a New York billionaire who helped change the industry with one text message.

Speaker 1 And after all that, we found some answers. A way out of the great maze of porn land to a place we definitely didn't expect to end up.

Speaker 27 This is Hot Money, a show about power and finance from Pushkin Industries and the Financial Times.

Speaker 27 Act one, story a story.

Speaker 1 We started by setting up a chat with one of the smartest people in porn.

Speaker 31 I'm a career pornographer. I'm an artist.
What's completely normal and an average Tuesday to me is completely fascinating to like the whole rest of the world.

Speaker 27 This is Jessica. You might know her from her stage name Stoya.
We wanted to talk to Stoya because she's been there for all the big changes that we're interested in.

Speaker 27 Stoya's won the equivalent of an adult Oscar. She's been a headline star and a bit of an alternative porn icon.

Speaker 27 She's written a book, run literary book clubs, and her columns have appeared in the New York Times and Slate.

Speaker 27 Her fans all over the world have bought thousands of sex toys molded on her vagina.

Speaker 27 This is my first proper interview with a porn star. I wasn't exactly in my comfort zone, so I started with a softball question, just to warm things up.

Speaker 27 Can you tell me a bit about, you know, where you grew up and school, family?

Speaker 27 No.

Speaker 31 I am here as a porn star, so we don't talk about my life before I turned 18. I think it's inappropriate.

Speaker 27 That's absolutely fine. I didn't realize that so I wouldn't have asked if

Speaker 27 I had.

Speaker 31 No worries but there are some strange people in the world who will fetishize those details and then message me about it and it makes me feel gross. So I just have a blackout before I turned 18.

Speaker 21 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 Stoya's not afraid to speak her mind or step on toes. whether they belong to porn kingpin or news reporter.

Speaker 1 At this stage, what we really wanted to speak to Stoya about were her early years in the industry. A time when online video streaming changed the porn industry forever.

Speaker 31 I started out first, I was go-go dancing, then I was posing for alternative nude sites, and then I signed a contract to be a performer in hardcore video with a studio called Digital Playground.

Speaker 31 Hi, I'm Stoya.

Speaker 1 Now we're going to very quietly

Speaker 31 go to a hotel

Speaker 31 and have sex on camera, which sounds like shooting a horn, which is not anything I would ever, ever do.

Speaker 33 This is a vacation video.

Speaker 6 Travel.

Speaker 26 Totally.

Speaker 27 Now, back then, in 2007, this was a big thing. Hardcore studios like Digital Playground shoot graphic sex.
But much like the old Hollywood studio system, they had contract stars.

Speaker 27 The performers were literally paid not to work for anybody else. The fact this happened at all was a sign of the times.

Speaker 27 The internet was bringing porn into millions of homes, but it was mainly images or grainy video. So consumers still wanted the studio stuff.
The online business coexisted with the old industry.

Speaker 27 Porn DVDs were selling by the truckload. Studios were producing lots of features and still largely calling the shots.

Speaker 27 Everyone was busy and working hard, but Stoya's work, that took place in her physical body.

Speaker 31 I did a lot of acting where the pages were being pushed under the door hot off the printer as I was going through the enema process to be prepared to do my actual sex scene.

Speaker 31 When you consider the working conditions for the cast and crew, I'm actually quite impressed by what we managed to do.

Speaker 1 Stoya even starred in one of the most expensive studio porn movies ever made. Pirates 2, Stagnetti's Revenge.

Speaker 1 It took weeks to shoot on a specially made pirate ship, decked out with cannons, a crow's nest, and some

Speaker 1 suspiciously comfy furniture in the galley. There were dozens of cast and crew, and it reportedly cost millions of dollars.

Speaker 34 It's not the name that brings a man infamy, it's his infamous deeds that bring infamy to his name.

Speaker 18 Yes!

Speaker 34 Action! Much wisdom! Now let's have the woman!

Speaker 1 Then Reitmostoya hit the height of her career. all of a sudden, everything changed.
It was around 2009, and the internet finally took the business model for porn studios and smashed it to bits.

Speaker 1 There would be no more pirate chip blockbusters for a simple reason. People were no longer buying DVDs.
They'd moved to watching porn online, for free, on what were called tube sites.

Speaker 1 Basically hardcore versions of streaming sites like YouTube. What's so interesting about Stoya's early career is is that the tube sites actually helped make her a star.

Speaker 31 One of the employees of Digital Playground had maybe one too many drinks at an award show

Speaker 31 and they came to me and expressed confusion as to why my first film with them was selling so well. They were like, how do people know who you are?

Speaker 31 And I'm like, well, you know, I've got my little MySpace page with like a couple thousand people.

Speaker 31 And there's this video of me with my tampon string hanging out, destroying an enormous teddy bear while naked.

Speaker 27 It was called Stoyer Kills the Bear, an early piece of viral porn that some random person had ripped from a DVD and posted on a tube site. That film was pirated.

Speaker 27 But Stoya says at that point, the publicity was kind of welcome.

Speaker 31 And people on these tube site things just like really like that video. That was the first effect that the tube sites had on my career and it was positive.

Speaker 31 This may be the only time that it was positive.

Speaker 1 The negative side had a name, a company called Manwin.

Speaker 1 In January 2012, around five years into Storia's career, Her studio boss decided to sell Digital Playground.

Speaker 31 He told me that we had been purchased by Manwin. And I was like, oh, I am now tied to a company that is literally named Man Wynn.
This is awful.

Speaker 31 I have a reputation for being pedantic and difficult in interviews. Every interview, I'm like, yeah, Manwin bought us.
Yeah, the people who own Pornhub and Browsers. Yeah, think about that.

Speaker 31 What's happening? They're buying up all these properties. It's weird.

Speaker 27 TubeSites had broken the old studio model for porn, and now the main owner of Tube Sites, Manwin, was buying up everything that was left, like the conqueror of a vanquished land.

Speaker 31 Did I mention they're called Manwin? Can someone explain this to me? Is it like a German thing where the word is like completely different and it just sounds ominous to me?

Speaker 31 And it's been a long and complicated relationship since.

Speaker 27 Manu had owned free tube sites like Pornhub. It had bought Digital Playground, a deal compared to Disney buying Pixar.
It even snapped up digital rights to Playboy and everyone knows that brand.

Speaker 27 Stoya, the independently-minded artist, was now working for a porn conglomerate. What she'd witnessed was the birth of the modern porn industry.

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Speaker 27 Act two: The Tubes That Made Porn Free.

Speaker 1 In the words of the Musical Avenue Q,

Speaker 1 the internet was made for porn. The internet is really, really great.

Speaker 21 For porn.

Speaker 1 I've got a fast connection, so I don't have to wait.

Speaker 21 For porn.

Speaker 2 There's always some new sight.

Speaker 1 I browse all day and night.

Speaker 30 It's like I'm surfing at the speed of light.

Speaker 1 The internet brought more images of sex to more people than ever before.

Speaker 1 Anyone with an internet connection could watch porn in the privacy of their own home, with no need for any awkward visits to the local sex shop, and it was free.

Speaker 1 The old world of porn had been a close-knit community where everybody knew each other, but there was no sense, even in the industry, of who was behind the tube sites.

Speaker 1 Or for that matter, how they were getting away with becoming overnight millionaires with pirated content.

Speaker 1 To find out who rules the porn industry today, we need to dig in here, at the moment when power of the porn first changed hands.

Speaker 27 And that led us to Curtis Potek. He was there running one of the first big porn tube sites, pretty much by accident.
Back in 2006, when Stoya started her career, Curtis was working as a strip club DJ.

Speaker 27 He needed a day job, so he answered an ad to work on a support desk.

Speaker 32 That was probably one of the most unique interviews of my life.

Speaker 32 He threw down some terms in front of me, some pretty vulgar sexual-related terms, some racy terms, because you can't control what people say, so they just wanted to prepare me, I guess, for the worst.

Speaker 1 The website turned out to be called XTube. It was part of the boom and these cool online platforms that allowed people to upload stuff online and watch it it go viral.

Speaker 1 But the tube sites, well, they were different from the likes of YouTube because they allowed porn.

Speaker 32 It was user-generated content, all provided by webmasters or just normal people like you or myself.

Speaker 27 Curtis was one of many who were swept up in the wild rise of the tube sites. It was online anarchy.
Nobody in the old porn industry knew who was in charge.

Speaker 27 All Curtis knew was that the shoestring operation at XTube was mainly funded by a mysterious Chinese businessman. They called him Mr.
X.

Speaker 27 The early days of Xtube were chaotic, but there was a basic goal, get as many people visiting the site as possible, and hope the advertising money followed.

Speaker 27 Curtis says it started off slow, but eventually XTube found its niche in gay porn. And as clips went viral and worked their magic, things took off.

Speaker 32 Once the word of mouth got out there, we went from 200,000 users to over half a million users in about a week. XTube took off at a crazy rate.

Speaker 1 But it wasn't problem-free.

Speaker 1 One of the founders left, leaving Curtis in charge of the site. And he started to hear from people who were less than happy.
Producers were seeing their videos uploaded to the site.

Speaker 1 And XTube hadn't paid a penny for them.

Speaker 32 I got very used to hearing the words, I'm going to sue you. I was like the subpoena king of the universe.

Speaker 32 I had a fax machine right beside me at my desk, and it was just pumping out subpoenas at one point.

Speaker 27 So Curtis, the strip club DJ, turned tech bro, ended up becoming the subpoena king. And Xtube wasn't the only company winding up producers.
Things were getting nasty, almost godfather nasty.

Speaker 27 Another popular tube site called UPorn got sent a bullet in the post, an actual bullet with the word U-Porn etched into the side.

Speaker 27 XTube almost folded when it had to pay a half a million dollars to a porn producer who sued them for hosting pirated videos, but it survived.

Speaker 27 By 2008, they charged a million dollars just for the ad slot across the top of the site. Throughout all of this, Curtis was the one in the firing line.
Mr.

Speaker 27 X and the other owners, they preferred a different approach. Hiding.

Speaker 1 Why didn't they want to be the face of XTube?

Speaker 32 Because they were older and smarter than I was.

Speaker 32 And some people put their face to a business, like an adult business like that, but they won't put their name, their real name. And I did both of those.
I used my real name and I used my face.

Speaker 32 I was the main profile that if you had any issues on the site, there was my ugly mug plastered up in the corner. I mean, I was starting to get depressed.

Speaker 32 I was having a bit of issues with drugs just to kind of like cope with what was happening in my life.

Speaker 1 Curtis was used to calls from people who hated him and what he did. But every now and then, he would also hear from people who realized how much money there was to to make on free porn.

Speaker 1 People who realized there was value in all that traffic. He remembers the last of those calls he ever got.
The guy on the phone was adamant. Just give me a number, he said.

Speaker 1 So Curtis walked over to the desk of one of the owners and asked him,

Speaker 32 If you're going to sell LextTube for whatever you wanted to, just give me that number right now.

Speaker 32 And he goes, 35 million.

Speaker 32 I said, all right. And I walked back and I picked up the phone and I said, you're not going to like this.
So I told him, 35 million. He goes, sure,

Speaker 32 I'll be there next week.

Speaker 27 If there was a year zero for the industry, this was probably it. Not 2006, when a bunch of renegade tech guys like Curtis started platforms where you could share stolen videos.

Speaker 27 They were just the folks storming the Bastille. What really mattered.
was what came a few years later, when someone emerged from all the chaos to seize control.

Speaker 27 When Curtis took that call, he had no clue he'd witnessed the moment that started to happen.

Speaker 27 Before long, the new owner of X-Tube showed up in his office, a German software engineer called Fabian Tielmann.

Speaker 32 Fabian used to lie on the floor in front of my desk after his very long flight.

Speaker 1 And what was Fabian's role?

Speaker 32 I believe they were just setting up the

Speaker 32 basically the takeover of the adult industry.

Speaker 1 XTube was just an appetizer for Fabian.

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Speaker 27 Act 3. Stoya in a changed landscape

Speaker 1 There was a merciless side to tube sites like XTube, UPorn, and Pornhub.

Speaker 1 Consumers loved them, for the obvious reasons. But all the free porn was tearing apart the business model of the old porn studios that were making making all the videos in the first place.

Speaker 1 Hollywood and the music industry were also under attack from piracy, but they were well-funded and powerful and could hit back with lawsuits and lobbying.

Speaker 26 With porn, well,

Speaker 1 who was going to stick up for porn producers? And performers like Stoya? They were even more vulnerable.

Speaker 27 How would you break down the negative consequences that the arrival of tube sites like Pornhub and U-Porn had?

Speaker 31 They gave the general porn-watching public an immense sense of entitlement.

Speaker 31 And when there are more hours of free pornography available than one person could ever watch in their lifetime, it becomes much more difficult to get them to pay for pornographic work. The next thing

Speaker 31 was

Speaker 31 that when you have

Speaker 31 people who have stolen your content and illegally uploaded it to a tube site, you can imagine what the descriptions sound like. They're not very nice, creepy things.

Speaker 31 I am simultaneously too fat and concerningly anorexic. And I don't like having that kind of body shaming posted

Speaker 31 on

Speaker 31 my work.

Speaker 27 So there was a personal toll from giving away stolen porn too.

Speaker 27 How could tube sites get away with not policing what was uploaded? The answer is pretty ugly. We'll get into how in a later episode.

Speaker 27 All you need to know for now is that tube sites prospered using the same legal loophole as social media platforms. For the most part, they're not responsible for what gets uploaded to their sites.

Speaker 27 They just have to deal with the complaints.

Speaker 31 Work was just being stolen and put on the tube sites and the tube sites were putting their hands in the air saying,

Speaker 31 We just let users upload things. And if you want something taken down, you can contact us.

Speaker 31 Around the same time, Pornhub was going to production companies and saying, Hey, if you just like work with us and send us trailers, and then we'll help you take down your content and we'll send you traffic,

Speaker 31 which other people in the adult industry have described as a gun to the head situation.

Speaker 1 Tube sites and porn studios did end up in a kind of uneasy truse.

Speaker 1 Studios would buy ads or post short clips like, you know, teasers. This hypothetically would get people to click through and pay to watch the rest of the video.

Speaker 1 But the problem was the money was never as good. There is a universal law of online porn.
Visits to tube sites last an average of eight minutes.

Speaker 1 And there aren't that many people who will feel the need to buy the whole video after they've finished their business.

Speaker 1 The other problem was that, in the end, these tube sites just didn't have a good enough reason to police the content. That was true for stolen movies, but it was also true for other material.

Speaker 1 Illegal abuse or what's known as revenge porn.

Speaker 1 Just think of it this way. If your video was on one of the sites and you didn't want it there, you had a problem.

Speaker 1 Not the tube sites.

Speaker 31 The respect and autonomy that I worked for years to establish is now completely out the window. I have no idea who these people are.
They look like a large business. They're named Manwin

Speaker 31 and none of this makes me happy. But still, I had a job to do.

Speaker 27 Over the course of your career, we've seen a lot of the owners of these sites really recede into the background. They do a lot to hide their identity.
How does that make you feel?

Speaker 31 You really want my feeling?

Speaker 31 So

Speaker 31 I

Speaker 31 can't post a snapshot without a tabloid reporting on it.

Speaker 31 Even in the COVID era, where I'm wearing a mask, people recognize me by my eyes and eyebrows.

Speaker 31 I am so exposed.

Speaker 31 And the people who really own these tube sites

Speaker 31 get to be reclusive and not publicly held to account. That is so unfair.
I don't like it.

Speaker 27 Supporters of the owners might say they're just protecting themselves from the stigma of being involved in the adult industry. Pornography made by consenting adults is legal.

Speaker 27 So what's our business knowing who the owners are? Stoyer was not impressed by that argument.

Speaker 30 It's not fair at all.

Speaker 31 These people have come into sex work,

Speaker 31 exploited as much as possible the industry, and they don't want to deal with the shame or the stigma, like sorry, babe, that comes with the package.

Speaker 27 So what are the questions that you would want answered?

Speaker 1 So I'm personally very curious curious why

Speaker 31 they're using all these like shell corporations in places that shady people do business.

Speaker 31 And like maybe that's because it's porn, so that's all they have access to, because porn is largely shut out of normal business infrastructure.

Speaker 31 But I would really like to know why.

Speaker 31 So they built these tube sites and whether they intended to or not, they devalued the entire market and then they started buying at production studios

Speaker 31 and I've thought about this a lot and I can't figure out how giving everything away for free and acclimating people to a porn is something you can have whenever you want without paying for it

Speaker 31 results in a viable business once the dust has settled.

Speaker 1 We asked plenty of people this question, and it was because we were torn.

Speaker 1 We met a lot of happy people in porn who loved their jobs. We also came across stories of exploitation.
Some of them are heartbreaking stories with real victims and real villains.

Speaker 1 At the back of our mind was always the question,

Speaker 1 shouldn't we be exposing all that? The bad guys?

Speaker 1 Talking to Stoya helped us realize that if you care about porn, how even the most hardcore kind became free to watch at the click of a button?

Speaker 1 How the biggest platforms are not held accountable if bad things are uploaded to their sites. Things like revenge porn or child pornography.

Speaker 1 How many sex workers are still denied a voice to speak out if bad things happen to them? Then you need to understand how this business works. Who profits from it? Who calls the shots?

Speaker 1 Who is really in control?

Speaker 26 So

Speaker 2 if

Speaker 31 you try to make a podcast that's about all of porn, it's going to be scattered and messy and not make sense.

Speaker 31 You are the Financial Times. I suggest you stay in your lane.
You focus on the business aspect. You focus on the finances.

Speaker 31 You focus on who got what investment money, who's in how much debt, how much profit is actually happening,

Speaker 31 and

Speaker 31 what the legal standing of these free tube sites should be.

Speaker 2 So that's what we've done.

Speaker 27 We stayed in our lane and followed the money.

Speaker 27 Patricia and I were given six months off our normal day jobs, time to focus just on the world of porn.

Speaker 27 Over the course of eight episodes, we're going to tell you what we found.

Speaker 27 We met pornographers, adult performers and directors it was who's got the largest penis here kind of thing and they hate each other we lost half of our followers which means we also lost half of our income tech pioneers who almost accidentally shaped today's internet the guy doesn't give a

Speaker 27 about anything other than himself hedge fund guys and money men What this put a spotlight on was discriminatory policies within the banking system.

Speaker 1 I'll even tell you how I uncovered the secret owner of the world's best-known porn sites.

Speaker 27 And let me tell you, we were surprised by who is really in charge.

Speaker 1 Next time on hot money.

Speaker 1 Fabian Tillman, the guy who built Manwin. A man with more power than any pornographer before him.
I guess someone has to be the bad guy, right?

Speaker 32 Because it doesn't work without the bad guy in the end.

Speaker 1 Change. It just doesn't.

Speaker 32 It's always a bad guy.

Speaker 1 Hot Money is a production of the Financial Times and Pushkin Industries. It was written and reported by me, Patricia Nilsson.

Speaker 27 And me, Alex Barker. Peter Sale is our lead producer and sound designer.
Edith Russolo is our associate producer. Our editor is Karen Shikurji.
Amanda K. Wong is our engineer.

Speaker 27 Music composition by Pascal Wise. Fact-checking by Andrea Lopez-Cusado.
Our executive producers are Cheryl Brumley and Jacob Goldstein.

Speaker 1 Special thanks to Renee Kaplan and Rula Khaloff at the Financial Times. Enmia Lobel, Lee Tal Molad, Justine Lang, Julia Barton, and Jacob Weisberg at Pushkin Industries.

Speaker 1 Thank you to SimilarWeb for providing our web traffic data.

Speaker 1 If you like this show, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus, offering bonus content and ad-free listening across our network for $4.99 a month.

Speaker 1 Look for the Pushkin Plus channel on Apple Podcasts or at pushkin.fm

Speaker 27 if you want more from the FT, try our new app featuring eight essential stories every weekday. Search FT Edit in the iPhone App Store.

Speaker 27 Your first month is free and it's 99 cents a month for six months after that.

Speaker 2 Ah, smart water. Pure, crisp taste, perfectly refreshing.

Speaker 2 Wow, that's really good water. With electrolytes for taste, it's the kind of water that says, I have my life together.
I'm still pretending the laundry on the chair is part of the decor.

Speaker 2 Yet, here you are, making excellent hydration choices.

Speaker 2 I do feel more sophisticated. That's called having a taste for taste.
Huh, a taste for taste. I like that.
Smart water. For those with a taste for taste, grab yours today.

Speaker 38 Why are TSA rules so confusing?

Speaker 26 You got a hoodie, you want to take it off!

Speaker 36 I'm Manny. I'm Noah.
This is Devin.

Speaker 38 And we're best friends and journalists with a new podcast called No Such Thing, where we get to the bottom of questions like that. Why are you screaming at me? Well, I can't expect what to do.

Speaker 38 Now, if the rule was the same, go off on me. I deserve it.
You know, lock him up. Listen to No Such Thing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 17 No such thing.

Speaker 33 This This isn't an argument.

Speaker 31 I'm right, and you're just saying things.

Speaker 33 Here's a free glimpse of the hilarious musical, Shucked. Wow, that's a lot of corn.
Play in the Curran Theater, September 9th through October 5th. Tickets at BroadwaySF.com.

Speaker 2 This is an iHeart Podcast.