Master the Creative Process | Twyla Tharp

Speaker 1 You have a reputation for having risen early and gotten to the gym by 5 a.m. for two hours, day in after day out.
Tell us about that ritual, and do you still enjoy it?

Speaker 2 It's not a ritual, and I never enjoyed it. It's a reality, and you do it because you need an instrument that you can challenge.
Just set the mechanism for the day you're going to have to do it.

Speaker 2 It's kind of boring and it's kind of loathsome.

Speaker 1 Could you give us a bit of insight into your inner dialogue around days when you don't want to go? Is there a self-talk or have you learned to push aside the voice that says maybe not today?

Speaker 2 It's simple. If you don't work when you don't want to work, you're not going to be able to work when you do want to work.

Speaker 1 Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

Speaker 1 I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Twyla Tharp.

Speaker 1 Twyla Tharp is a world-renowned dancer and choreographer.

Speaker 1 Her on-stage and film works easily place her not just in the top 1% of all choreographers of all time, but also among the top tier of all creative artists past and present.

Speaker 1 I knew I wanted to host Twyla on this podcast after listening to her book, The Creative Habit, where she spells out how to build a schedule, habits, and routines that make your best creative expressions come to life.

Speaker 1 What I love about it is it's direct and it's action-oriented. There's nothing mystical about it.

Speaker 1 She explains in her book how, even for people that have just one hour a day to write or sing or draw or paint or whatever, to get the most from that time in terms of creative output.

Speaker 1 Then as I learned more about her, I was also super impressed that even in her 60s, by the way, she's 84 now, she could deadlift more than 200 pounds, which is more than twice her body weight, bench press her body weight for three clean repetitions, and was taking up boxing to keep her movement and reflexes sharp.

Speaker 1 As you'll see today, she is a phenom, and it comes by way of hard work. She is still in the gym every single morning at 5 a.m.
for two full hours.

Speaker 1 Today, we discuss how to build self-discipline in and around your creative mind, and we discuss movement as a language.

Speaker 1 There's this new idea emerging in neuroscience that bodily movement, then music, and then speech is how humans came to communicate with each other.

Speaker 1 We discuss that and how movement can help us process and explain our emotions and our ideas.

Speaker 1 We also discussed Twila's life growing up on a farm and how that shaped her mindset about work and community.

Speaker 1 And we also talk about what it means to have and express your unique creativity and how to evolve your sense of taste. Oh yeah, and we also discussed telepathy.

Speaker 1 You'll notice the rapport between Twyla and I is very different than is typical for other Huberman Lab podcasts I've done.

Speaker 1 She is a real firecracker and we had a ton of fun exploring and challenging ideas, mostly her challenging me.

Speaker 1 It was a true honor and pleasure to learn from such a virtuoso of the arts and, frankly, of life. And as you'll soon learn, we can all learn a lot from Twyla.

Speaker 1 Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

Speaker 1 It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public.

Speaker 1 In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Twila Tharp.
Twyla Tharp, welcome.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 Huge fan, huge, huge fan, and love, love, love your book.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 The Creative Habit. It's just an incredible book, and it's taught me so much.
And I want to talk about that today, but I want to talk about a bunch of things.

Speaker 1 Let's start with

Speaker 1 what a spine is.

Speaker 1 I think this is such an important component of the book and this concept of a spine. And the way I think about

Speaker 1 is that

Speaker 1 many, many people

Speaker 1 feel they might have something inside them that they want to put into the world. They want to access their creativity or they're creative.

Speaker 1 And there's so much information out there about how to go about that.

Speaker 1 But this notion of a spine is really critical because it keeps us on track.

Speaker 1 Otherwise, it can be a wandering in the desert. Suddenly you're swimming in the ocean.
Suddenly the phone, you get a text.

Speaker 1 And please explain what a spine is and why this is such a vital concept for anyone that wants to create anything.

Speaker 2 Spine means focus. Spine means concentration.
If you think about it geometrically, spine is the center, both laterally and vertically.

Speaker 2 So if we're talking physically, you have a right and a left side. You have a top and you have a bottom.
And these elements are connected through the center, right? So

Speaker 2 they have to be coordinated. You simply cannot function if your right side is going onewhere and your left side's going this other way, you're going nowhere.
So you have to move off your center.

Speaker 2 In terms of how you organize information, there's also a center to it.

Speaker 2 It's like, okay, over here you have this and this, and you can transfer what you understand from this arena to inform this side, but it has to pass through a common point.

Speaker 2 And that common point is the center.

Speaker 2 And until you feel that or want anyone working, either physically or let's just use the word very broadly and generically, artistically, until you know where you are grounded, where you feel the most confident

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 you are what you said, you're at sea. You could be going this way, that way, unless you know how to navigate from the stars, which few people do anymore.
You're screwed.

Speaker 1 So when I think about a spine in a, like a scientific paper, I was taught there can only really be one major conclusion, maybe two, but one major conclusion of any paper, even though the data set probably points to 50 different things that are potentially interesting.

Speaker 1 In terms of a podcast or a movie or a book,

Speaker 1 It's sometimes not obvious to the reader or to the listener or to the observer what the the spine is. But my understanding is that the creator has to understand what the spine is going into it.

Speaker 1 So, could you give a couple of examples from your own work and maybe, if they come to mind, a couple of examples from visual arts or movies or something where

Speaker 1 it's clear to the creator what the spine is, but it might not be entirely clear to the person watching or consuming the content?

Speaker 2 I am a

Speaker 2 great fan of Agatha, Christie, and Jonathan

Speaker 2 Karek.

Speaker 2 Okay. And the reason why is because from the get-go, you know there is one conclusion.

Speaker 2 But that their job is to keep you away from that conclusion for as long as possible.

Speaker 1 Who did the crime?

Speaker 2 Who did the crime? Who's the killer? Who, what a, what a, what is the crime for starters? And they'll delay as long as they can in their singular, you know, style,

Speaker 2 definite

Speaker 2 modes.

Speaker 2 I mean, Agatha Christie has, her format is practically that of a sonnet.

Speaker 2 I'm sure you could actually count words, and I've never seen a study that show a long, okay, she's going to do red herring number one, X words in, and this is where she's going to throw in the extra crime to push the tension up to get it to go to here.

Speaker 2 But we all know we're playing the same game.

Speaker 2 I think that anyone who is successful in communicating to other people gains their trust, gains their confidence that you're not going to screw them.

Speaker 1 How much do you think it's important to get into the audience's mind about what they want? Or is the spine coming

Speaker 1 solely from the creator? Is it about the creator's relationship to the work? Or are you thinking about what the audience wants and what they need?

Speaker 2 The question about audience and intention is a

Speaker 2 sort of sensitive one because it's, okay, are you manipulating the audience and are you there just to take advantage of them?

Speaker 2 Or at the other extreme of that spectrum, are you doing it because you're in an ivory tower and you're off here doing your own investigations and maybe they connect, maybe they don't, who cares, right?

Speaker 2 Those are the two extremes, total manipulation of audience, total disregard of audience. And depending on who I'm working for or with, I do both.

Speaker 1 To me, it seems like it's one of the toughest things as a creator to both want to honor your audience's wishes, but you also have to have something that you want to communicate. And

Speaker 1 we never know how things are going to land. But for somebody who wants to create something, maybe we could orient them toward their own spine.
like or to the spine of the work.

Speaker 1 Where does that start?

Speaker 2 Well, I think that the word intention, which is

Speaker 2 so vague these days.

Speaker 2 But why are you doing this? What is your purpose in doing it? What's your interest? Why do you want to do this?

Speaker 2 What's in it for you? Are you to learn?

Speaker 2 Is this a contract signed? Do you have an obligation to be successful to a producer who's investing a lot of money and that's a given going in?

Speaker 2 That's going to determine a range of possibilities for you, right? And unfortunately, the bottom line controls a lot of this issue.

Speaker 2 At least for me, it's given if I've signed a contract to deliver a specific result,

Speaker 2 that's what I'm doing. It doesn't matter what I want.
It's do I get that accomplished or not? It's in a way a kind of sacred bond, okay?

Speaker 2 You honor your contracts. On the other hand,

Speaker 2 if I am not in a singular position of earning any money, I can do anything I want. Or anything, not that I want, but anything that I think is important.

Speaker 2 Okay, so how do you determine the parameters of important? Because that helps with intention. In the olden days, which dates as in before 1979, anything before 79 is the olden days.

Speaker 2 In the olden days, that would include the 60s. We did things because we wanted to change the direction the earth rotated.

Speaker 2 End of story. Good luck.

Speaker 1 Tell me more about that.

Speaker 2 It simply meant that whoever the practitioner was was completely exposed to everything. Say you're a painter.
You're completely exposed to everything everybody is doing.

Speaker 2 And you see another way of going about it.

Speaker 2 And you do that. Everybody is plugged into that same mechanism.
And if they swerve into your area, you shift again. You have to continuously be altering perception as an artist.

Speaker 2 That notion does not seem so relevant these days perhaps.

Speaker 1 Why do you think that is?

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 2 you could live cheaper. In the 60s you could live very cheap.
Now you cannot live very cheaply

Speaker 2 as an artistic force. You're paying bills, lots of bills.

Speaker 1 I've long thought that the best work that people do is at the beginning when they don't have any feedback yet and they're just being themselves. It's hard to stay connected to that early

Speaker 1 energy of just being oneself without the notion of contracts and feedback and

Speaker 1 perception of feedback. Do you think it's important?

Speaker 2 I've never been of the persuasion that my understanding was the greatest when I knew nothing, as when I knew more.

Speaker 2 I've always been of the persuasion that the more you know, the bigger your challenge.

Speaker 2 If one looks at lives of artists,

Speaker 2 for example, Beethoven, take Beethoven early work, take Beethoven late work, very different, different challenges.

Speaker 2 There is argument to be made, depending on your particular

Speaker 2 set,

Speaker 2 of the coherency of the classicism of the earlier quartets, as opposed to the late quartets, and the total disillusion that he was able to accomplish at the end of his career, totally taking the sound world apart

Speaker 2 that he could only actually do because he was deaf. He had developed

Speaker 2 during the course, unfortunately, of a very long time,

Speaker 2 decades, the awareness that he was losing his hearing. And by the end, he genuinely, basically, was completely deaf, which forced him into his own world.

Speaker 2 And there he looked at himself across the ages.

Speaker 2 So, in a piece, I think, of the Diabelli, which is the last thing he wrote for keyboard after the sonatas.

Speaker 2 And he actually had started the diabelli 15, maybe even I'm forgetting my details here, but 15 years years earlier than when he came back to complete it.

Speaker 2 And he got bored with it initially because

Speaker 2 to a younger composer, it wasn't challenging enough.

Speaker 2 When he came back to it later, he had a humility about him that said that theme, which I used to poo-poo because it's like, you're kidding,

Speaker 2 up,

Speaker 2 up, down,

Speaker 2 cut in half, yada, da, di, drop it back down, yada, da, di da. He's going, what?

Speaker 2 And later he comes back and he says,

Speaker 2 right,

Speaker 2 not stupid, simple.

Speaker 2 I could never have written anything that simple or that useful.

Speaker 2 And he finished it, and it's arguably the greatest set of keyboard variations in the entire repertoire. Which do you want? The earlier Beethoven?

Speaker 2 The Beethoven who has passed way through many different works, a mass, an opera, many quartets, and returns to it with this new information to look at it again.

Speaker 1 Fascinating. There's something about the more you know, the bigger your challenge, but

Speaker 1 if I may, from what you just said, maybe also the bigger the opportunity.

Speaker 2 Totally.

Speaker 2 But the more kind of distracting it is, and the harder it is to focus. Part of that's physical,

Speaker 2 but part of it is also that there are many more options available with accomplishment, if you will, but you have to be selective about

Speaker 2 what you have available to you to work with. In the earlier phase, you'll take what you can get.

Speaker 2 And now if you take what you can get, you will be very wildly distracted by everything.

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Speaker 1 Recently, I listened to a conversation between my good friend Rick Rubin, who we were talking about earlier. He's a big fan of yours.
You inspired his book, and he wanted me to tell you that.

Speaker 1 Thank you. And he was speaking with

Speaker 1 Gwyneth Paltrow.

Speaker 2 who's

Speaker 1 of course an actress and

Speaker 1 has done incredible things in health and wellness business, et cetera. And she said something very interesting.
She said, people generally like to keep you where they found you.

Speaker 1 And it's an interesting statement that I think taps into something that, again, that as a creator or as a consumer of creative content, feels very true.

Speaker 1 That we encounter somebody, like somebody goes to one of your dances, or we see a great movie with Gary Oldman in it or something.

Speaker 1 You see a Baskia for the first time, and it either impacts you or it doesn't. But if it does, there's this tendency to want to keep that person and the work they do in that place.

Speaker 1 It's like we think we own the creator in some way and the work in this very naive and selfish way.

Speaker 1 Do you think that that creates a real problem for anyone that's trying to put things into the world? Because as you stated, with time, the creator gains knowledge, you evolve your craft, but your

Speaker 1 fan base, the people that love you, they love you for something that you're not really any longer. You're evolving.

Speaker 2 Because somewhere over the rainbow syndrome, right?

Speaker 2 Garland always was asked for one song. Or

Speaker 2 John, anyone is always asked for their hit because everyone wants to touch upon that which seems to somehow be their greatest accomplishment.

Speaker 2 It's aggravating. I mean, obviously it's called cubby holing.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 for the person doing the work,

Speaker 2 there are artists who work serially, right? Who work in series and who make incremental changes? And they kind of have, in a way, a stab at the best of all possible worlds.

Speaker 2 But there are others who feel that, okay, you got that, I got to go over here.

Speaker 2 And that's because, in a way, they're right.

Speaker 2 Because if you want to constantly be gaining, that's a game, you want to be gaining the attention, you do it by change, you don't do it by reinforcing, that just creates a comfort zone and it can build a reputation, it can build a career, that it gives you more and more of what you expect.

Speaker 2 But for the person who's making the work, that can kind of be deadly.

Speaker 1 Did you know Jean-Michel Basquia?

Speaker 2 No. Okay.
A different generation.

Speaker 2 I knew the painters, the downtown painters in the 60s.

Speaker 1 Could you give me some examples of...

Speaker 2 Oh, you want to know the famous names?

Speaker 1 No, I don't want to know the names. I just have a question about...

Speaker 2 Tony Smith, Frank Stella, Motherwell. Okay.

Speaker 1 The reason I ask is...

Speaker 1 The reason I ask is that earlier you were saying that there's a time or there was a time when a given field, everyone knew each other and what they were doing.

Speaker 1 And I like Basquias. I'm not obsessed with them or anything.

Speaker 1 There's a wonderful scene in the movie, Basquia, with him and Benicio del Toro, or the actor playing him and Benicio Benicio del Toro, about this notion of fame.

Speaker 1 We'll put a link to it in the caption so people can see it.

Speaker 1 And it's just a wonderful example of how people will love you, then they'll hate you for how you changed, then they'll love you for how you were. And then

Speaker 1 it's a hilarious and

Speaker 1 again, for a consumer of content, it's perhaps even more interesting than somebody who's a creative. But

Speaker 1 the point being that nowadays, I feel like there's so much stuff out there: art and music and dance and Instagram puts it all on

Speaker 1 Schmorgesborg display for us.

Speaker 1 And it's kind of harder to know where one sits in a community of creators.

Speaker 1 And so to what extent do you think that being surrounded by other creators, like visual artists or other dancers,

Speaker 1 then

Speaker 1 versus now

Speaker 1 was or is useful?

Speaker 2 Yeah, the early era, also age is a factor here. I was very young.
I was just out of college and I felt very much the student.

Speaker 2 It's a different deal now and it's a different kind of responsibility. And the work's going to be different.
In the early era, I went to see absolutely everything. Now I go to see absolutely nothing.

Speaker 2 And it is

Speaker 2 partially a matter of time.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 more importantly, it's an awareness that you want

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 feel

Speaker 2 isolated in a way because you are, and that's the truth. So you need to operate from a truthful place.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 when you talk about this plethora of information that is out there, I do try to inform myself to some degree about different areas of

Speaker 2 culture,

Speaker 2 but I do it through a media perspective because that's how the consumer is receiving it.

Speaker 2 Consumer is not at the individual exhibition or at the individual performance, they're getting it through media. So, in looking at it through media, I already have a double perspective on it.

Speaker 2 I have the artist's perspective, but I have the journalists, for lack of a better word, we'll call podcasting journalism. Will we be forgiven?

Speaker 1 Sure.

Speaker 1 Podcasting is a weird thing. We could talk about later what it is and what it is.

Speaker 2 Okay, we'll wait till this is off to discuss that right now.

Speaker 2 But the challenge for me becomes, okay, in all of this swirl of stuff, what do you believe?

Speaker 2 Forget who, you can't believe anyone, but what? What can you believe? What is really grounded in a way that's productive?

Speaker 2 And in thinking, you know, I've just come off, and if you'll forgive me for diverging here for a moment, two really hard years of working.

Speaker 2 A 60th anniversary tour

Speaker 2 that was a

Speaker 2 very big culmination of a long, long working process

Speaker 2 which put a lot on the line and which was unfortunately very successful because success is much harder to follow than failure. So here you said, okay, babe, you've done it all.
Now what?

Speaker 2 And so where do you go?

Speaker 2 And you don't go around asking other people for the answer to your question. One has to find a way of rerouting without abandoning

Speaker 2 who you are and what you believe in order to just make change, really.

Speaker 2 How does that work? So it's an extremely

Speaker 2 attenuated place to be.

Speaker 2 Not many people make it this far. Not many people are looking at their 61st year of work.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 So that's like, okay, so show us.

Speaker 2 Well, maybe I don't want to.

Speaker 2 And maybe I will. Who knows?

Speaker 1 You said that coming off of a success is much more challenging than coming off of a failure. I think that will surprise a number of people

Speaker 1 because people,

Speaker 1 myself included, probably feel like when you do well, you get the confidence that you can do well again. There's that also.

Speaker 1 Whereas when you fail, you're like, ugh, like.

Speaker 2 You can do that again, too.

Speaker 1 Do you tell your dancers that?

Speaker 2 No, because my dancers don't fail.

Speaker 2 That's why I work with dancers who

Speaker 2 want to work as hard as I do.

Speaker 1 Let's talk more about that process.

Speaker 1 In your book, you talked about failure being critical, failing a lot, a lot in private. Yeah.
That had a big impact on me.

Speaker 1 I think that this notion of making lots and lots of failures and mistakes.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 when you're working, you don't know if it's a failure or not. You only know if it's useful.
You know if it's exciting. You know if it generates a next question that's useful.

Speaker 2 You don't know if it's good or bad.

Speaker 1 Let's go back to your dancers and how you put them through the paces, so to speak, because I think it also frames up this notion of rituals very

Speaker 1 nicely. For the uninformed, like myself, give us an example of your day and a day in the studio, the top contour of that.

Speaker 2 It depends on where you are in this wonderful word called process.

Speaker 2 If you are

Speaker 2 at the beginning, it's all more fluid.

Speaker 2 And while the one key ingredient I have always found to doing work is you've got to be able to do a schedule. You've got to be able to tell people what time they're coming and what shoes to bring.

Speaker 2 Okay?

Speaker 2 That's already actually made a lot of choices for you.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that I think is a good thing. I mean, there's no point in just saying, oh, we'll work whenever you get here and, you know, bring whatever.
Whatever is not my favorite word.

Speaker 2 So choices get made and a schedule gets done. And ordinarily,

Speaker 2 again, it depends on what the project is, but if it's let's just give as much range here as possible.

Speaker 2 If it's me making a new piece, I will set a schedule, dancers come in, they will have done class themselves, they will come warm. Okay, that is not a part of my day.

Speaker 2 I have my own work to do in preparing for that rehearsal, but in

Speaker 2 also maintaining my own physical instrument to the degree that I can, because the more I can bring into the studio, the more I can give them, and the more I can expect them to bring in.

Speaker 2 So I have a tandem path going on here with the dancers, and we meet up, we join,

Speaker 2 and I usually will come with a certain preset sense of where we're going with this thing, and then see how it actually works in real time and real space, which is a very

Speaker 2 useful and tough mistress

Speaker 2 and eliminates a lot of fantasy very quickly.

Speaker 1 Who decides who gets to work with you?

Speaker 2 I do. Well, that's actually not true.
In a way, they do. The dancers that I work with, I obviously audition, but I also screen from the perspective of who wants to work with me.

Speaker 2 Who's going to come and say, yeah, I'll go through that wall. Is that what we're doing? I'll go through the wall.
And you want to know that you have that in the room.

Speaker 2 You're not going to ask them to go through the wall all the time, but you know, if it seemed like it was an approach that was going to be useful, you've got to know that that commitment is really solid.

Speaker 2 And that's best indicated by their desire. Not your finding them totally appropriate, but their desire.

Speaker 1 Are most dancers

Speaker 1 living with the understanding that it's going to be very, very long hours and probably very little pay for a while?

Speaker 2 For sure, very little pay and forever.

Speaker 1 Wild world.

Speaker 2 Crazy. Crazy and to my way of thinking, not acceptable because, you know, I'm all in favor of the folks who do the work and the training to accomplish physically.

Speaker 2 And I don't make a clear distinction between either folks who are in business or athletes. To me, it is all the same enterprise, but dancers have nowhere near the

Speaker 2 possibility of earning a living that a great athlete has. Not even sort sort of, kind of in the ballpark, not even in the parking lot, not even on the highway to the ball game.

Speaker 2 How did this happen and why does it continue?

Speaker 1 That raises interesting questions at how we support the arts or don't support the arts, I think.

Speaker 2 Are we taking over your show for the next two and a half years?

Speaker 2 If we must, you know,

Speaker 1 this conversation no doubt will draw some additional attention to dance, but the larger issue of

Speaker 1 people being being able to make it in the arts as not just as

Speaker 1 a luxury, but as a critical piece of culture and life. I mean, I love beautiful things.

Speaker 1 I love beautiful dogs. Most all dogs are beautiful, even the bulldogs.

Speaker 1 But I love beautiful things, and it enriches life in more ways than just feeling delighted. I think there's immense carryover from

Speaker 1 the arts to other areas of culture. And so we could make an economic argument about that.
But it's part of the reason you're here. But to just sort of return to this business of ritual.

Speaker 2 Can I interrupt you before you go there? Because I'd like to take up two things.

Speaker 2 One is the notion of the reality being that when we do a successful performance, I measure it by did that audience leave in a better frame of mind than it came in with.

Speaker 2 In other words, we provide a service. And we provide a service that gives them a sense of optimism.

Speaker 2 Yea, verily, I might even go to joy

Speaker 2 to the belief that

Speaker 2 they too occupy this body that does these phenomenal things. And thank you, Lord.
Okay, that's a service.

Speaker 2 I think dancers should be paid more for that service. and that it needs to be acknowledged.
The other point that I want to bring up is you've used it twice now. I didn't stop you.
The first word.

Speaker 2 Beauty, what is this?

Speaker 1 It could be something I see or hear that it stirs some set of emotions in me that carries forward.

Speaker 1 And what you just said a moment ago about the audience leaves in a different state. I mean, it's the word that came to mind was like, it's like really great therapy.

Speaker 1 But in some sense, it's better than that because

Speaker 1 I was also thinking that perhaps in the top 10 of all my favorite memories are several live performances in which I was the observer. It's like those things really stick with us.

Speaker 1 And I think they change us in meaningful ways, especially when we're in the audience with other people, not just watching on a screen. They can be transformative, for sure.

Speaker 2 And in a live audience becomes, of course, a whole nother thing about costs and

Speaker 2 expenditures, but that it confirms that not only do you feel a new righteousness for yourself by a performance, but that you sense others do as well. And that creates a community bonding.

Speaker 2 And, you know, okay, football games, you know, everybody is very rowdy about it. Most performances, people are not, but that doesn't mean that it still doesn't take that

Speaker 2 hold of people who are experiencing the same thing in real time. We tend to dismiss that which is familiar.

Speaker 2 And that that sense

Speaker 2 is actually not all that familiar, but it feels very intimate, and it is.

Speaker 2 But it actually is quite rare. And the rarer a piece of art, and I will call a performance a piece of art is, the more value it has.
And the more that is compensated for culturally and economically.

Speaker 2 There should be a price point on beauty. Let's put it that way.

Speaker 1 Well, there is for everything else.

Speaker 2 Well, I know. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, there is a price point for beauty in terms of people who could say, well, the sunrise is free and the sunrise is beautiful, but seeing it in certain locations costs a lot more money than seeing it in other locations, that's for sure.

Speaker 2 Right. And that brings up another thing because, in a way, it's a kind of horrible thinking to go, yeah, it's a privilege.
You know what? You can't pay me. You can't buy me.

Speaker 2 I don't have a price.

Speaker 2 And that, I'm sure, is one of the things in great dancers who are certainly not paid, as I've said before, and I'll say at least 300,000 times more, commensurate with a great athlete, that is probably one, and I've never actually, I've never brought it up directly with a great dancer, how much is it your own sense of independence and liberty that makes you the artist that you are?

Speaker 1 I think the name that most people probably associate with dance is probably Baryshnikov. If they don't know much about dance, they know that that name, or it's familiar to them.

Speaker 1 What was it about Mikhail Barychnikov that sort of had him break through the common consciousness that way?

Speaker 2 First of all, Misha Moore these days actually is remembered by younger generations from his later cultural input, i.e. Sex in the City, than he is as a classical ballet artist.

Speaker 2 All right, let's just start there.

Speaker 1 Because he showed up in Sex in the City as a character.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 And that's how he is often recognized by younger audiences, younger

Speaker 2 folk.

Speaker 2 What was he in the beginning? He was

Speaker 2 actually there was Achalis, then there was Nuriav, and then Misha.

Speaker 2 Politically, he came across the line. It was Russia, America.
He chose America. He's our hero.
Plus, which he was gorgeous.

Speaker 2 He's unquestionably, unquestionably, in my opinion, in that era, the

Speaker 2 possessor of a technique that was a culmination of the 20th century and that will never be matched. And to see him work at the bar or to see him in the

Speaker 2 absolute interior realm of what the classical ballet was was an unbelievable privilege.

Speaker 2 But not many people saw that. Not many people saw him at the bar, which is where you build your chops.

Speaker 2 He also was capable of taking those chops and expanding on them, breaking through their boundaries, trying it this way, do it that way, but utilizing the power that he had from that simple classical base to take it outward.

Speaker 2 lots of inventiveness in that regard. And the guy was gorgeous.
What can I tell you?

Speaker 2 His interest is. And what does that mean? But what does that mean? It means a

Speaker 2 wide-ranging interest

Speaker 2 that you feel includes you as you, the spectator. You feel he's including you in his wideness of vision.
Where does that come from?

Speaker 2 From the intellect, from his musicality, from his training, from his personality,

Speaker 2 from his cultural breeding, Latvian.

Speaker 2 and it is a singular commodification, one of my favorite words that drives people up the walls when I use that word in relation to the arts of performing.

Speaker 2 But he

Speaker 2 was very, very,

Speaker 2 very astute in many different areas, starting from an athletic ability through to a poetic sensibility.

Speaker 1 It's interesting you said that because he was attractive, that

Speaker 1 people felt that they were a part of it in a way that was not.

Speaker 2 We all want to be godly. We all want to be a part of the sublime.
Few can give us that.

Speaker 1 So when they say, you know, artists or I include dancers, I'm just broadly speaking, artists are like portals.

Speaker 1 Is that what you mean?

Speaker 2 I would accept that.

Speaker 1 Years ago, I went to a Philip Glass

Speaker 1 concert at UC Berkeley. I'll be honest, I understand it.
I left there in a different state, mostly of confusion

Speaker 1 that people were willing to pay for that. I'm sorry if I'm insulting any Philip Glass fans, but this is my podcast.
I'm going to be very direct.

Speaker 1 I was told I maybe hadn't seen the right Philip Glass concert. I was very confused.

Speaker 2 Why?

Speaker 1 You know, I'm not a musician. I'm not,

Speaker 1 but when I like something, I know I like it and I tend to really like it. But it's rare for me to encounter something that's like, it just felt like

Speaker 1 it felt extremely experimental at every at every

Speaker 2 part of it.

Speaker 1 And I and I couldn't tell whether or not people were telling themselves that they liked it because it was him

Speaker 1 or whether they really liked it.

Speaker 2 What year is this that you went to this concert?

Speaker 1 Gosh, this must have been 20, 2007, 2008?

Speaker 2 That's very late. Okay, so Phil obviously has been working since the 60s and I've done one major collaboration with Phil and one recent collaboration.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 in the beginning,

Speaker 2 the audience for minimalism

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 Reich, Riley, Glass,

Speaker 2 came gradually.

Speaker 2 And so, when the initial piece called In the Upper Room was done,

Speaker 2 it had a power and a force that involved also discovery.

Speaker 2 Now, the later piece, which is called Slacktide,

Speaker 2 feels a known commodity and

Speaker 2 was addressed slightly differently

Speaker 2 rather than, I mean, you know,

Speaker 2 it's percussive. The lyric element has been reduced, okay? And

Speaker 2 you're a sensitive soul. You think of the word beauty.
And that does not mean total elimination, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. It means inclusion.

Speaker 2 And so the later glass work was done in conjunction with a Chicago percussion group called Third Coast, who Phil's worked with a lot and who he trusts to do iterations, if you will, on the work.

Speaker 2 And we iterated with a flute. Flutes don't do this.
Flutes do this.

Speaker 2 So we put a stream on top of that. That's in the music.
I mean, iterations are a study in and of themselves, right?

Speaker 2 What makes something different from and yet still the same as? Good luck with that one.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 that was the different range. I dare say if you go and look at, because Third Coast produced a recording of this work, you listen to Slacktide and then tell me a response to glass.

Speaker 2 But basically minimalism took the lyric element and reduced it to just the temporal passage in time.

Speaker 1 What's interesting because of all the concerts I've seen, this one still sticks with me as like a stimulus to learn more.

Speaker 1 Because one thing that I'm totally fascinated by and perplexed by is that with the exception of comedy, the more one learns about something, the artists, what went into the art, the dance, what went into it, typically the more one likes that piece or that genre.

Speaker 1 Like the more I learn about something, then I can listen to it with a different ear. I can watch it with a different eye.
Comedy is the exception.

Speaker 1 If it's not funny, learning about the origins of the joke don't make it any funnier. Learning about the comedian doesn't make it funnier.
It just, it sort of just falls further and further.

Speaker 2 See, I think that's true of your other art forms, too. I think you're confusing, forgive me, knowledge with instinct.
I mean, instinctively, you're responding to the humor, but instinctively,

Speaker 2 a piece of art

Speaker 2 can reach you, but you can be baffled by it. But we don't like confusion, so we might call that something we should learn about before we can acknowledge liking it.

Speaker 2 That's one of the things that is, I think, really difficult and something I think a lot about, which is not only protecting but refining instinct.

Speaker 1 Tell me more about that.

Speaker 2 I know, it's fascinating, isn't it? I can't tell you about it because I could be writing a book.

Speaker 1 Oh, well, Rick Rubin,

Speaker 1 who I feel even though you haven't met yet, you share a certain kinship with, talks about taste all the time, about this, you know, a sense of taste and trusting your own sense of taste as a consumer and as a creator is so key.

Speaker 1 That's why I brought up the Philip Glass thing because I'm not writing off glass on the basis of

Speaker 1 one concert, but

Speaker 1 I didn't walk out of there thinking like, maybe I'm an idiot. Maybe I didn't get it.
I thought, and I didn't think they're all idiots.

Speaker 1 I just thought, I guess I'm just different because everyone else here seems to really love this. And this is like,

Speaker 1 I just doesn't hit me right. It's like,

Speaker 1 I don't like sardines. Never like sardines.
You give me 100 sardines, I'm going to hate them 100 times more than the first sardine. I promise, because I've eaten 100 sardines.

Speaker 1 It's just, but I don't care that I don't like sardines. I just, I'm over it.
I was over it from the first sardine.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 Phil's on the cusp of the avant-garde. The avant-garde is a smug place to be

Speaker 2 and can be very aggravating and can

Speaker 2 also be not that bright. and very indulgent.

Speaker 2 There might have been some sense of that to it. The avant-garde can confuse itself with originality and vice versa.

Speaker 1 Do you think it's important for dancers to be classically trained before they get into other forms?

Speaker 2 To be classically trained, absolutely. You want to be a musician and not understand the circle of fifths, the harmonies of construction of all music? No.

Speaker 2 Ballet is a format for the human body moving in space that has evolved over many centuries and has got a head start on us and if you want to learn about how you move you might as well try and jump a little further forward by studying ballet.

Speaker 2 I don't care ultimately if you your arabesque which is one leg behind one leg under right if your arabesque is aligned in a perfectly classical manner unless it's a perfectly classical ballet but I do care you have that gear and you can reference it in terms of where's the leg going to move from and does it get to that point.

Speaker 2 Can it stop right on its center or not? That's what ballet can do.

Speaker 1 If there's a proper way for a movement to be done,

Speaker 1 the limb,

Speaker 1 every element within the limb has to move from point A to point B in a certain trajectory,

Speaker 1 and people come in different sizes and shapes, and you've got multiple dancers on stage.

Speaker 1 How do you reconcile that?

Speaker 2 You don't.

Speaker 2 And the word is properly, properly, what is proper.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 had the experience of working with the Kirov in St. Petersburg.
And I went to their school.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the children are lined up and they are exact replicas. And they have a huge selection.
mechanism throughout the country for picking those 10 or 12 kids that are going to be in there of whatever age.

Speaker 2 And I saw one group of little boys,

Speaker 2 less than eight years old. There were probably eight or nine of them in their little black shorts, their little white shirts.

Speaker 2 And I just came in briefly, and they were being, you know, as they do, it's a part of the tradition and it's wonderful.

Speaker 2 They're being very respectful. And it was like, oh, come in and you will sit here and they will continue and then we're getting moved to the next class.

Speaker 2 And one little boy came out and said, No, no, no, we want to do more.

Speaker 2 So we went back and they started jumping out of sequence because a ballet class is very carefully constructed to warm up the body and also to develop the training.

Speaker 2 So you're working both laterally and in depth in every technique class. They went out of sequence so the boys could jump, which is usually not done until the very end of class.

Speaker 2 And this little guy had real what we call balloon. He could go up and he could, like, for a moment, just it seems like he's able to suspend.

Speaker 2 He knew he had that, and he knew I wouldn't see that at the bar, so he wanted to, but he was what we call pronated.

Speaker 2 His feet were hyperextended to the outside, so he's not going straight up through the metatarsal, he's going up through the outside of the leg.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I pulled the teacher out and I said, you know, that kid's phenomenally talented.

Speaker 2 And he said, yeah, we know.

Speaker 2 And I said, but he's pronated. He said, We know that too, but we have eight other ones.
Like,

Speaker 2 if he doesn't figure that out, he's out, and we'll bring in another one. And this can be the difference between a child who grows into an adult with a career in a life and one who's lost.

Speaker 2 So, parents are very protective of trying to get this opportunity for their kids, and it's heartbreaking. And the way they are trained is they are wrenched into these positions.

Speaker 2 And I saw in an older class of young girls an arabesque and one leg was not slightly behind.

Speaker 2 The teacher came and literally pinned the leg behind with one arm and drew the shoulder out this way, literally pushed her and then released her.

Speaker 2 And that's how they teach. You think that's going to happen in America? I don't think so.

Speaker 2 And that's what it takes to create a line of people who at the bar hit exactly the same arabesque.

Speaker 2 It's both both a thing of extraordinary beauty and a thing of incredible lack of choice, because that arabesque is going to be set for life in that one angular demarcation, right?

Speaker 2 And, you know, heaven knows here in the West, we like to encourage all kinds of wanderings around, which is hard to get through the head of a child who's been trained in this way, to stay within those parameters.

Speaker 2 And it says something also, obviously, about the political situation, right?

Speaker 2 Those kids don't have a lot of choice. They toe the line.

Speaker 1 So is the goal to get that uniformity?

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 2 And it's, I mean,

Speaker 2 for a person who works sometimes to what's called unison, there are times when you want,

Speaker 2 I don't do it that often. It's a lot of work, and I don't like what it says about democracy.
But if you need to have unison, you want unison. And that means an exact agreement on time and space.

Speaker 2 Now, your other question about what about different body types and so forth, I can accommodate that because I can gain my unison from the center.

Speaker 2 What we're talking about, the ballet here, it gains it from the periphery, from the exterior point, from the broad reach. I'll accept my broad reach is not going to be actually

Speaker 2 in uniform, but my center is going to be. And I'll make that,

Speaker 2 it's a compromise of sorts. It's not really a compromise.
It's an agreement. I'll make that definition because I want them to work from an interior purpose and the visuals of it are your problem.

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Speaker 1 I'm going to ask a couple of questions in the frame of biology

Speaker 1 that I think

Speaker 1 I'm hoping you might find interesting, but you certainly have the information that I'm seeking here.

Speaker 1 First off,

Speaker 1 you may know this, but if you don't, there's a great Nobel Prize winning physiologist. His name was Sherrington, and he said, the final common path is movement.

Speaker 1 that basically the movement of an organism especially mammals is is really what the nervous system is constructed for

Speaker 1 and you know more modern theories are that you know movement came and dance came then song then language you know but that that movement is the foundation of of everything

Speaker 1 as it relates to evolution of a species, finding mates, finding food.

Speaker 2 Can I interrupt you? Please. It is even more basic because movement is the first thing we're going to do.
And you don't make any sound until you can move parts of you.

Speaker 2 You don't feed yourself until you can move that hand. You don't write anything, language, music, or nada, without movement.

Speaker 2 Why do we therefore stick movement way down here under the bottom of our cultural heap as somehow shameful or what? What is it?

Speaker 2 With the aspect of dance that makes it a less kind of revered format than sculpture or painting or music. A secondary handmaiden to the arts, really?

Speaker 1 Well, I certainly appreciate movement and I know that and I like to think that people's obsession with athleticism in some sense reflects that too.

Speaker 2 Totally.

Speaker 1 I've been wanting to ask you this question for a very long time since I heard your book, even though it's not about the creative process. And here goes.

Speaker 1 I'm going to to keep this as brief as possible, just to give the raw materials for your response.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 the motor neurons, the neurons that control movement,

Speaker 1 they control movement of the trunk. They control movement of the fine digits of the fingers that are the fingers, the digits, as we call them in science, right? Nerds speak.
The wrists, everything.

Speaker 1 So we say from proximal to distal, like from center out.

Speaker 1 There's this incredible thing that's been discovered over the last 20 years or so, which is that the molecular identities of the neurons that control the movement of my trunk and your trunk forward and back and side to side are exactly the same as the neurons that control undulation in a fish.

Speaker 1 The neurons that control the movement of the proximal limbs, like the upper arms and the thighs,

Speaker 1 are molecularly identical

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 1 the neurons that exist to control fin movement in fish. And that what evolved was progressively more and more motor neurons so that we as old world primates can manipulate the fine digits in like so.

Speaker 1 Okay, so that's fine. That just tells you that there's this kind of primitive to more evolved structure of neurons that control movement from center out.

Speaker 1 What's fascinating to me is that while I'm sure there are people who can move their trunk at very high frequency, you know, undulate very high frequency, that's a hard thing to do.

Speaker 1 That generally has to be learned. Like, I can move my trunk slowly from side to side, but it's hard to move it very fast from side to side, but I can move my fingers very fast.

Speaker 1 And so, there's basically a frequency map from the center out on the body.

Speaker 1 So, now when I look at the way people move, I think, because I'm a neuroscientist and I have this knowledge in my head, like they're communicating frequency.

Speaker 1 And frequency in the visual, in photon space, gives you very interesting, you know, we have wavelength, we have also frequency. Like

Speaker 1 in sound, you have high, low, and high pitches, low to high pitch.

Speaker 1 And in other domains, you also have this. And so to me,

Speaker 1 first of all, I'd love your thoughts on this. I'm not asking for validation of a theory.
This just is what it is. I didn't come up with this.

Speaker 1 But I wonder whether or not, consciously or unconsciously, when you've choreographed dance,

Speaker 1 whether or not you're making music with movement in a way that maps onto this idea of a frequency map from center out. Maybe, in part, no.

Speaker 2 Sweetness, my love. Did we not discuss already much earlier the importance and

Speaker 2 specificity, specificity, specificity of center?

Speaker 2 Now, what you're saying about the different rates of the

Speaker 2 tendrils, the neurons, the cellular neurons.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the neurons that control the trunk versus the upper arms versus the.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that

Speaker 2 this has got more

Speaker 2 choice, can make more choice than this can make.

Speaker 2 Do I think about the parts of the body as sometimes? In other words, the legs can be working at one rate of speed, say half time, of what

Speaker 2 the arm is doing, and they'll be on the same metronomic base, but they'll be operating at a different speed. Certainly, I would think of that.
What I think about power,

Speaker 2 that sometimes you can isolate through the center, and there'll be like a huge impact from the top, but that the body, the lower body, will be fluid.

Speaker 2 Sometimes, I mean, I've ripped off Tai Chi forever, it's okay.

Speaker 2 So, we're doing Tai Chi, and suddenly we stop bong, and then we're back into it, right?

Speaker 2 So, it's like just like a jolt goes through it, and I suppose that's a change in your neurological construct.

Speaker 2 I mean, what interests me in what you're saying is a part of the nightmare of my life, which is dance has difficulty, and one of the reasons it has difficulty in being registered by many people in our culture is that it doesn't have easy access to being documented and recorded in the way that music does or language does.

Speaker 2 What you're saying, I've argued for many years, should be a way of documenting movement that people could read and then they could read a dance and then they would feel grounded in that tradition and

Speaker 2 understanding of that tradition.

Speaker 2 They could study that tradition. That's not now possible.

Speaker 1 I'd like to talk about the creative process a bit in a way that perhaps people can

Speaker 1 structure some of their own creative pursuits.

Speaker 1 At what point do you know the spine?

Speaker 2 The beginning and the end. Okay.
Okay, what do I mean? In the beginning, you hope for it, and you have a little taste of it, or you wouldn't be able to, I wouldn't be able to start

Speaker 2 without the tiniest little indication there's something there that's actually going to hook in and it's going to allow me to start building. And this is where the process becomes very reassuring.

Speaker 2 You start building the wall. You're just mixing the mortar and putting the brick in, mixing the mortar, putting the bits.
And the wall grows and it develops all of this stuff happening.

Speaker 2 And you're just doing the mortar and the brick. And it's very not menacing and extraordinarily rewarding in the place you want to live.

Speaker 2 But you can't, because you've got to finish the work and let it go.

Speaker 2 A dismal moment.

Speaker 1 Maybe we put this into an example. Let's say I want to write a short story.

Speaker 1 I realize you're a choreographer, not a writing instructor, but we say, well, like, what's the, would you say, and then you say, well, someone says that they want to write stories or books.

Speaker 1 So what's the spine?

Speaker 2 The first thing is, what's the idea? The first thing is,

Speaker 2 where's the story? I mean, some writers have to know the end before they can start at the beginning.

Speaker 2 Others want nothing to do with the end until they've at least reached the middle because they want the work to find itself.

Speaker 2 That all is, you know, that's a part of the privilege of being a writer and the pain of being a writer.

Speaker 2 But the

Speaker 2 construct of starting, sometimes it's simply habit and discipline.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 you are going to go in and you are going to start at, let's say, 6.45 every morning and you're going to give yourself, you've only got an hour and a half.

Speaker 2 Okay, I'm not talking about you're a professional writer.

Speaker 2 I'm talking about you're a person who maybe wants to become a professional writer, but who's got at least one other job and maybe two and probably a kid to deal with.

Speaker 2 An hour and a half is a lot of time in that life.

Speaker 2 So, starting, you got to start with something. And either there's an idea that

Speaker 2 you really are

Speaker 2 energized by, or just, you know, you start writing something, get something on the page, and bit by bit it becomes a habit.

Speaker 2 And maybe that habit evolves, and maybe it doesn't, and maybe you give it up. And maybe you find that you, then you get an idea, you find something you keep returning to and it pulls you.

Speaker 2 It hypnotizes you.

Speaker 2 It makes you want to follow it, see where it will go to, see how it will develop. And then at a certain point, it's done.
It's played out.

Speaker 2 Maybe you can guide that so that it becomes more exciting and you learn how to build as you're going along and you learn how to direct it so that it's going to get to either a surprising end where it has to end and the reader is going to say, I should have seen that, or you're going to say, I should have seen that, or you're going to go, no way, you're a liar, I'm not going to buy this book.

Speaker 1 But the showing up at 6:45 consistently is

Speaker 1 the bricklaying that's essential.

Speaker 2 Yeah, because it allows you to think that you could be a writer.

Speaker 1 Sort of living into

Speaker 1 a delusion that could be a reality.

Speaker 2 Could be. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And maybe it's not a delusion because maybe what you start to write immediately is a very interesting sentence or two.

Speaker 1 Some days. Maybe.

Speaker 2 Some days. Yeah, you can't expect a good time every day.

Speaker 2 You might want to quote me on that.

Speaker 1 You have a reputation for having

Speaker 1 risen early and gotten to the gym by 5 a.m. for two hours.
eating three hard-boiled eggs post-workout, day in after day out, for a very long time. Tell us about that ritual, and do you still enjoy it?

Speaker 2 It's not a ritual, and I never enjoyed it. It's a reality, and you do it because you need an instrument that you can challenge.
And in order to challenge something, you got to know how it stands.

Speaker 2 I mean, I could challenge, you wouldn't want me to, the centering of this, but I can only do it if it's already grounded. Then I can try to throw it off.
You can't just throw things off.

Speaker 2 They've got to be set before you can throw them off, right?

Speaker 2 So that is you just set the mechanism for the day you're going to have to do it.

Speaker 2 It's kind of boring and it's kind of loathsome. I would rather go to the gym than brush my teeth, I'll tell you that.

Speaker 1 Could you give us a bit of insight into your inner dialogue around days when you don't want to go? Is there a self-talk or have you learned to push aside the voice that says maybe not today?

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, no, no, no. It's simple.
If you don't work when you don't want to work, you're not going to be able to work when you do want to work.

Speaker 2 End of story.

Speaker 1 Were you always like this?

Speaker 2 We mean like this.

Speaker 1 I didn't mean that in that sense and you know I didn't. I don't.
You know I didn't.

Speaker 1 You know I didn't. I meant, have you always been this disciplined and had this

Speaker 1 clear view of the necessity for hard work.

Speaker 2 My mother was an extraordinary force in anybody's life. She happened to be in mine.
Okay, I was trained as a very young child to practice

Speaker 2 whether anything, everything had to be practiced. It had to be scheduled to be practiced.
And time is limited and you don't waste it.

Speaker 2 And you work very hard and you try to maximize that period of time because because otherwise you're being wasteful. And while I said I'm from San Berdue, I am, but I'm not.
I am from the Midwest.

Speaker 2 I was born in Indiana and left when I was eight.

Speaker 2 But up until that point, I had the extraordinary good fortune of being on my grandparents' farm

Speaker 2 for long stretches of time without my parents. And these farms were in

Speaker 2 Amish territory, and the family's Quaker. And the land was the land, period.
There was no electricity, there were no phones.

Speaker 2 There was plant the seed, grow the seed, kill the hogs, wring the chicken's neck, and you work or you don't eat.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the Midwest sensibility is something to behold. I have a lot of friends in the Midwest.

Speaker 1 There's a real decency out there in terms of how people communicate with one another, who they do and don't know. And there's a real thing to farmers.

Speaker 1 At Stanford, when I was a postdoc, there was a MD PhD student in the laboratory.

Speaker 1 She had grown up on a mushroom farm, not the psilocybin mushrooms, the kind you eat and don't hallucinate, on a mushroom farm in rural Pennsylvania.

Speaker 1 And her work ethic, and this is at Stanford School of Medicine, where people are very driven, not just on average.

Speaker 1 Her work ethic was unbelievable.

Speaker 2 And her...

Speaker 1 cheerfulness about it was also unbelievable.

Speaker 1 It was spectacular.

Speaker 2 The delight, in fact.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she had a bike accident on. A few people will know who this is.
She had a horrible bike accident on campus, knocked out all her teeth. Someone stepped out in front of her.

Speaker 1 She was back in the laboratory with falsies in and working, I think, within like 48 hours. This would have put anyone else out for a much longer time.

Speaker 1 I haven't kept up with her, but I'm sure that she's a spectacular physician, scientist, wherever she is. But there's really something to

Speaker 1 the farming piece.

Speaker 2 It is communal, and it is the sense that while these farms are very isolated, I mean, you know, 100-acre plots that are divided by tree barriers from one another,

Speaker 2 that somebody has your back all the time. I still have my grandmother's quilting frames, and they,

Speaker 2 when established, it require eight women, a four or two aside, and the quilt gets done, and then you make eight of them, and each one gets a quilt.

Speaker 2 And you know that to do the big job, the barn that's got to get up, you have to utilize forces outside yourself

Speaker 2 in order to accomplish this, and that you owe, you owe them.

Speaker 2 And you want to, it's not an obligation, it's a sharing. And you understand, okay, I'm getting that barn.
I owe services here for seven more barns or whatever.

Speaker 2 This is an excellent thing.

Speaker 2 And I do try to think of dance that way. And I do think a well-made dance is a good

Speaker 2 community.

Speaker 2 It's society as it ought to be.

Speaker 2 It works the way we should work together.

Speaker 1 You mentioned Quaker. Yeah.
I've been to a couple Quaker meetings.

Speaker 2 Silent meetings?

Speaker 1 Yeah, every once in a while someone would stand up and say something.

Speaker 1 I had a friend who was there's a Quaker house near where I used to live when I was finishing my masters and I got became friendly with a guy outside because we would drink coffee the same coffee shop and chat and he was like, you should come to a meeting.

Speaker 1 You might find it interesting. And I knew I was in a benevolent place when I walked in.

Speaker 1 Because, you know, in Berkeley, California, if somebody says, hey, you should come to a meeting, and you're like, you know, you're like, you don't know what you're getting into, right?

Speaker 1 But they had a a picture of the Quaker Oats guy on the wall as a joke. I knew I was like, okay, these they can poke some fun at themselves.

Speaker 1 So yeah, someone would stand stand up every once in a while, say something. There was some reflection.
And then at the end, everyone kind of like said goodbye and took off.

Speaker 1 It was interesting.

Speaker 2 Yeah, those in

Speaker 2 those days for me were Wednesday evenings, and they were silent meetings. And there would be meetings where no one had

Speaker 2 anything to say. They were silent meetings.
And simply,

Speaker 2 you can help me out here. They were not using language, but surely neural rays were going out.

Speaker 2 And probably, if there had been a catastrophe in the culture, you know, some kind of huge fire or something awful, you know that people are thinking, you have a sense of what that thinking is, and that there

Speaker 2 was

Speaker 2 and is and can be a kind of nonverbal communication that's not even a physical you're not using sign language to communicate

Speaker 2 but that you have a sense of what we called in the day in the air

Speaker 2 in the air

Speaker 2 and that that is a very powerful form of communication that we don't really respect

Speaker 2 anymore and how potent is it neurologically

Speaker 1 this last year

Speaker 1 the podcast series Telepathy Tapes was very very popular. I haven't had a chance to watch it in full.
I listened to a little bit of it. It's about how kids who are nonverbal perhaps can tap into this.

Speaker 1 And it's gotten some criticism from the standard scientific community, but also

Speaker 1 less than you would have anticipated if it had all been complete BS. So I think there's, you know, it's gotten partial acceptance there.

Speaker 1 This brings us back to the notion of a center, believe it or not.

Speaker 1 Fish. have lateral lines.
They sense the electrical fields of other fish and other things near them.

Speaker 1 I mean, there's many, many examples from the animal kingdom of, you know, like the platypus with its electric, people call it an electric sensing bill, but it sends out these electrical fields that then it can detect things in its environment because its vision is very poor.

Speaker 1 Somebody once said, Ed Yong, the writer said, that so many animals rely on smell. We sort of smell with our eyes, which sounds crazy, but we use our eyes the way that other animals use their noses.

Speaker 1 And that gives you an insight into how they use their noses but most animals have a sense of how close or far other members of their species and other things are we tend not to think about that unless you live in a big open space and you get on the New York subway and like suddenly you're like whoa this is pretty you know this is different

Speaker 1 but we have these we don't really have a lateral line, but we have remnants of things that are similar.

Speaker 1 They're beautiful studies showing that if you look for, in an experimental context, magnetoreception in the human brain, people perform above chance. In other words, we can detect magnetic fields.

Speaker 1 People are going to think I'm crazy, but this was published in Science Magazine. Yeah, we can sense electric fields, but we sort of have to train ourselves to do it.

Speaker 1 And perhaps some people are just naturally leaning that way. So there absolutely is

Speaker 1 when I say energetic, neural communication across space that isn't just words,

Speaker 1 sound waves, and vision,

Speaker 1 photons.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 there's stuff happening at a distance and smell. I think we've we vastly

Speaker 1 underestimate the extent to which pheromones and odors of people who are upset or

Speaker 1 there's a study showing that human tears affect hormones and people around them.

Speaker 2 You need to have a 16-year-old boy around you when it comes to the sensitivity to smell and perfumes being sold commercially these days.

Speaker 1 Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 But the thing about distance is something that I'm very, very interested in. I mean, the awareness is mostly visual for dancers, and it's usually established again in class.

Speaker 2 If you have a crowded class, the distance can be, the next one would be out here from this point.

Speaker 2 But a really crowded class, the distance might be out here, in which case you're going to be angling yourself to the diagonal so you're able to get

Speaker 2 full reach, which is going to impact on design, right?

Speaker 2 But there are also

Speaker 2 ways, and it's very demanding, actually, and it requires a lot of trust on everybody's part, where I can get dancers to work very close together.

Speaker 2 And that has a real visual impact, and it becomes a physical sensation of the person watching. It can become an anxiety.
Oh, don't step on the, she's going to get stepped on. And

Speaker 2 there I'm kind of using it crassly.

Speaker 2 But it's interesting to push people

Speaker 2 into what's called one another's space

Speaker 2 and be able to condense the amount of area that people feel comfortable in or require, which could be a very good thing, culturally speaking, because we got less and less space.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's interesting that this notion of communication across space, if we could just continue down this path a bit.

Speaker 1 Last year I had the great honor, really, to do a lecture about music in the brain with Renee Fleming,

Speaker 1 the great opera singer. And we got onto this topic of the fact that opera singers will capture an emotion.

Speaker 1 They're using their diaphragm in a very particular way, getting a certain frequency of vibration in their body. obviously using air, you know, shaping the air as it leaves their lungs to sing, and how

Speaker 1 maybe

Speaker 1 that's actually impacting the

Speaker 1 same sets of neurons in the audience, but they're not singing.

Speaker 1 Okay, this is kind of an interesting idea that you're feeling the emotion of the singer because your phrenic nerve, the nerve that controls the diaphragm, might be vibrating at a similar frequency.

Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely. This

Speaker 1 gets back to this like more, I don't want to call them primitive, but more fundamental aspects of language and communication.

Speaker 1 I wonder with dance.

Speaker 1 And perhaps with athleticism too, like on a football field, when we see somebody move or people move in a certain way, whether or not we don't realize it, perhaps, but that there's almost the illusion that we're moving like that.

Speaker 1 Like we are accessing this in this idea of portals, like artist portals, that we're actually sensing at some level what it would be like to move like that. And of course, I can't.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. I mean, you know, these ocular glasses, right? That you believe that you're projecting yourself into that

Speaker 2 item up there and actually feeling it. Hello, right?

Speaker 2 That must be what is working, what's creating that illusion. You're not really inside that item, but you feel and believe as though you are.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I've done a VR where

Speaker 1 you think you're in a different body. It's

Speaker 1 really weird and kind of cool.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I guess so.

Speaker 2 I'm a little terrified to deal with it, or also I haven't taken the time to really expose myself to it.

Speaker 2 It definitely is of interest, but when you talk about soccer or an athletic event, you know, you can feel in boxing, you can feel the impact, you can feel how much poundage is behind that punch.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you boxed.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 With Teddy Atlas as your trainer. We have some friends of Teddy Atlas around here.
Yes.

Speaker 1 What motivated that?

Speaker 2 I was in my early 40s and the Olympics were in LA and I was making a new piece and I wanted to compete. But there are no competitions for what I do.
I mean, a dancer's range is much more than

Speaker 2 an athlete's not to the same degree in specialization, but across the border, speed, flexibility,

Speaker 2 you know, maneuverability in air, coordination, flexibility. Dancers got all of these components to a very high degree.
So, no events for

Speaker 2 me at the Olympics, but I could make a piece that would be highly athletic, and I wanted to be in the very best possible shape I could be in.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I decided that the training that was involved in a boxer being in shape

Speaker 2 was more extreme than what I was doing with my dancing regimen.

Speaker 2 And that the, you know, the rope coordination, the stamina being involved, the power coming off the punch, the

Speaker 2 grounding of the body so that you had a punch,

Speaker 2 the willingness to take the blow in exchange for the unwillingness to go down you would not go down you're not going down

Speaker 2 and we don't do that in dance so I figured well I'll go where they do do that so Teddy we were running steps backwards this is a very good thing I mean you know

Speaker 2 and the shadow boxing it's a great great training format.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 You know, as a neuroscientist, I have to put a call out against sparring for anyone who's not trying to make it a profession, and maybe even for those that are, that's their choice. But

Speaker 1 speed bag work and

Speaker 1 the visual coordination that's involved is also incredible. Near-far, but also just switching from peripheral to central vision.

Speaker 1 I imagine it improves the brain in many, many ways, except for the getting hit in the head part.

Speaker 2 Well, probably.

Speaker 1 And you're also well known for being quite strong. Tell us about your deadlift records.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, mean,

Speaker 2 it's,

Speaker 2 I was training

Speaker 2 in a real weight gym with competitive weightlifters

Speaker 2 and was very serious

Speaker 2 from the time I was probably in my 50s until mid-60s, say,

Speaker 2 and that you were nobody in that gym if you didn't do your body weight for three on the bench. I mean, you know, what are you in here for, right? So it had that kind of

Speaker 2 requirement to it, which is very encouraging if you want to lift heavy weight

Speaker 2 and also snap pneumonia, right? Which is like, okay, I actually never did that. But the jolt of pulling more weight off the ground than you really can do or you have ever done really does

Speaker 2 send a rush through the body that is unique.

Speaker 1 And what was your personal?

Speaker 2 227.

Speaker 1 227 deadlift. Yep.
Awesome.

Speaker 2 Well, I don't know about that. I mean, just do it day in, day out.
And I wasn't, you know, you can't train day in, day out, but training rigorously and continuously for probably eight or ten years.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

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Speaker 1 Several times you've mentioned the bar.

Speaker 1 I think most of us understand there's a bar along the wall with a mirror sometimes behind it, et cetera.

Speaker 1 For the uninformed, like for me,

Speaker 1 what is bar work really about? And could you give us an example of a few, I mean, is it designed to improve flexibility? Is it for what is this notion of the bar?

Speaker 2 All the above. A bar is a set regimen of exercises that are developed to strengthen

Speaker 2 the

Speaker 2 structure of the body to basically approach the jumps to gain height in the air for the men, for the women if they're working on point, the strength in the legs and the torso to be able to support that weight in the little area down here.

Speaker 2 And so it's developed essentially from bars evolved, but basically their format is brilliantly designed and begins with usually plie,

Speaker 2 which the terminology is French, which means to fold. So you're folding the body in the plie.
You're folding, you're going down, and the positions are first, second, third,

Speaker 2 fourth, and fifth. Okay, first you have actually one center that comes off of here and here, or you're off to this side or you're off to that side.

Speaker 2 But if you're working very rigorously, you're working to develop that single center in first.

Speaker 2 Second is a much more evolved kind of higher muscular kind of situation where it's being supported from the torso and the leg muscles more than from the feet.

Speaker 2 The third position is never used because third looks like a bad fifth.

Speaker 2 So it's just been eliminated, which is kind of too bad because I actually do use third, but not if I think it's at a moment where it could be judgmentally determined.

Speaker 2 Actually, it was an uncrossed fifth, oh dear.

Speaker 2 But in any case, so third weight is somewhere between openly distributed and

Speaker 2 crossed through a single center between the two legs. Okay, this is the fourth, right? And the fifth, that fourth is closed, so that it's just a reduced, even higher center.

Speaker 2 Okay, in in these positions, first, second, usually not third, first, second, fourth, and fifth, plie, first to bend,

Speaker 2 to fold.

Speaker 2 Next, tandra, to stretch, to reach out from that base, not so far as you're going to fall, but far enough so that you have to evolve and occupy a little bit more space each time you do it.

Speaker 2 And you will go first from the tandu to a plie, to a tandu to a pleie, and then tandu to a straight leg, leg, which by drawing in you're pulling the center even higher.

Speaker 2 And so therefore it comes later in the series of exercises. They're designed to evolve, right?

Speaker 2 After the

Speaker 2 stretches comes the rendezvous, one of the few exercises actually that's circular. Most of ballet comes from fencing.
It's very linear. It's the attack, it's the retreat.

Speaker 2 But it doesn't have a whole lot of that going on unless somebody's gotten very ambitious and flamboyant with their fencing styles could be. I don't know.

Speaker 2 But in any case, Rendejeme is the circling of the leg from a full fourth forward all the way to an open second all the way to a full fourth back,

Speaker 2 all the way back to your second, all the way back to your fourth forward, and down full rotation.

Speaker 2 Both sides, by the way, you're always reversing.

Speaker 2 Even the ones that are in a symmetrical position, you still reverse right and left because, as as I'm sure you're well aware, right and left occupy your body all the time and are constantly arguing with one another.

Speaker 2 We have an interior conflict going on that makes almost anything else in life impossible. But so we have right and left, which we're always trying to balance, okay?

Speaker 2 After rendezvous, you can have petit batment, which is little throws, little throws. So from your fifth or from your first,

Speaker 2 you're reaching quickly out, little darting movements, right? Then you can have frappé, which is to beat frappé.

Speaker 2 And so from the ankle, it'll be a flex foot that extends boom and boom. And all of this is about developing relevé to lift, to releve,

Speaker 2 right? Up to the metatarsal as high as you can get, pulling up through all of this relevé.

Speaker 2 and this develops a strength that you need to jump because from the pie down you're going to drive up and the more power you have down here the more you can get up that little extra eighth of an inch counts okay

Speaker 2 So frappé after frappé is grand batman, the big batman, the big throw, all the way up and down, but not all the way up, changing the angle of the hip so that the rotation is going to alter the line, holding the hip straight through up,

Speaker 2 E up,

Speaker 2 E up,

Speaker 2 either through fourth or through second or through arabesque and back.

Speaker 2 Those are the fundamentals. Now, if you're Merce Cunningham, you can operate in all of the interstases through all of that, but you still have the regulation of the body's map.

Speaker 2 And that's what the ballet has already done.

Speaker 1 Amazing.

Speaker 2 Not amazing. Just very highly evolved in terms of how to control movement in terms of strengthening and developing the body.

Speaker 1 Did the people that developed this

Speaker 1 care about the underlying physiology or they just and I'm not saying they should

Speaker 1 but it seems like an incredible intuition at least that they came up with it.

Speaker 2 You'll forgive me for saying something stupid like this. The body is very smart and one of my problems has always been what knows what first?

Speaker 2 Okay, does the body already get it, brain, and we're trying to educate you? Or is it brain telling body what to do?

Speaker 2 In the case of the classical technique, I think it's actually the body that feels that it could get a little higher if only its rotation were a little more open. So it urges that

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 I don't think brain is going. Well, you you know what? If you actually could open that leg out, you go higher and you're going, brain, I don't know about that.
What does that mean?

Speaker 2 You don't know what it means. The body knows what that means.

Speaker 1 I've heard it said, you know, we think that we're a brain with a body, but perhaps we were a body with that later got a brain.

Speaker 2 There are certain sophisticated movements, rhythms, and so forth. I mean, for example, a great composer is a great mathematician, right?

Speaker 2 And the indications and the divisions of time

Speaker 2 I would accept as coming, you know, particularly because of how you see the notation and how the

Speaker 2 note can be subdivided. It's a very visual thing.
Once you're into the eye, you're into the brain. I mean, you know, it's like, do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 This is more about the body, and this, how the toes are going about its business down here, are very much involved about the body.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 thinking sometimes is really overrated.

Speaker 2 For sure.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, as human old world primates, which we are,

Speaker 1 we got a bunch more machinery up front in the prefrontal cortex, which let us think and plan and reflect and strategize a lot more.

Speaker 1 Also allowed humans to do bad things a lot more. trickery and things like that, but also to plan really incredible, wonderful things.
But

Speaker 1 I do think it in many ways it was at the expense of some of the machinery involved in these, I hate use the language lower, let's just say more fundamental fundamental intuition.

Speaker 1 I don't want to give a too many anecdotes, but years ago, I developed an obsession with comparative neurology.

Speaker 1 There's this beautiful journal, it's hundreds of years old, called the Journal of Comparative Neurology. I was fortunate enough to participate with that journal

Speaker 1 for a while reviewing these papers, which

Speaker 1 for modern science, people don't really care about these papers. They're like, what is the cerebellar vermish shape of the, you know, what, of the atlas turtle?

Speaker 1 I don't even know if there's an atlas turtle, but I just guess we were talking about teddy atlas, of the whatever, right? Of the

Speaker 1 two-toed, three-toed slot, whatever, all these weird species. But no single paper.
teaches you that much, except about this really arcane thing about the mallard duck hypothalamus or something.

Speaker 1 I'm sure that paper is in there, by the way.

Speaker 1 But when you start comparing the nervous systems of these different animals and the way they move and the way they think, because there are certainly papers about humans in there, you start getting emergent fundamentals.

Speaker 1 You go, oh my goodness, you know,

Speaker 1 once the forebrain got bigger, the cerebellum got a little smaller in this one area.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 evolution starts to make a lot more sense. But evolution at the level of things like we're talking about today, movement and communication.

Speaker 1 And it leaves you with this question, which is a lot of the reason you're here today, is

Speaker 1 I think we all really want to understand, even if we don't know that we want to understand, like, what are we really

Speaker 1 here to do? What are we good at? How do we tap into these other aspects of ourselves?

Speaker 2 When you talk about the brain developing in different areas to different degrees, I sometimes wonder about, and I mean to be neither naive nor romantic here, the morality of the body.

Speaker 2 And if the people who run our governments and who design our social systems had a sense on a daily basis of preserving and protecting and honoring their physical bodies, if their brain would be allowed to concoct some of the schemata that then tell bodies everywhere what they're going to be doing.

Speaker 1 Tell me more.

Speaker 1 I think I understand. I do believe that taking care of the body and one's health first is fundamental.
Anyone that's lost their health for any amount of time understands what I'm talking about.

Speaker 1 But we don't tend to do that. We prioritize the brain a lot without understanding that it exists in this whole context of the world.

Speaker 2 It's not just health. It's

Speaker 2 propriety and excellence who wants to nurture and encourage the body to realize its full potential that it was gifted with when it was born.

Speaker 1 Let's say you and I were in charge of education.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 Do you think kids, teenagers, maybe even young adults and older should all do something akin to like gymnastics?

Speaker 2 It's an interesting thought, which one? I mean, I respect gymnastics a lot.

Speaker 2 I get dancers sometimes who are not ballet trained, but who are gymnastically trained, and they're courageous in a different way. They have a different center, but

Speaker 2 they have a willingness to throw through space that a dancer does not, or you're not trained in the ballet to throw.

Speaker 2 There are moments that you dart forward, but they're very restricted, whereas a gymnast is continuously comfortable with that kind of spatial explosion, which is a beautiful thing.

Speaker 1 Should there be a policy that every young person needs to do a form of movement that encompasses a lot of different tempos and some jumping, some rolling, some stretching, because we tend to specialize in sport very early, or people decide they're no good at sports.

Speaker 2 No, no, they're not allowed to do that. Sorry, something they've got to find that they're good enough at to encourage themselves to respect themselves.
Otherwise, they quit.

Speaker 1 I will interrupt you here just to say that I think this brings us back to your

Speaker 1 early development and expectation on people, on kids and adults. In other words, standards.
I heard somebody say something really interesting recently that was,

Speaker 1 you know, it used to be, now I'm sounding like, you know, I am 50, it used to be that

Speaker 1 there were pretty high standards set on all of us.

Speaker 1 Whether or not we got a lot of love and support depended on the household, but the standards were always high.

Speaker 1 There seems to be a period of time in which there was a lot more love and support. Some people will disagree with me, but maybe standards weren't held as in high regard.

Speaker 1 Of course, it varies by family, varies by circumstance. But I think ideally we get back to a point where standards are high for everyone.

Speaker 1 Like etiquette,

Speaker 1 God forbid, you know,

Speaker 1 not going to the movies in your pajamas, for instance.

Speaker 2 Yeah, not just etiquette, but also behavior, which

Speaker 2 group

Speaker 2 social dance, whether it's ballroom or square dance, there are rules and regulations and there are ways that you know that you can work that are going to respect the traffic pattern, if nothing else.

Speaker 2 And that's going to transfer to how you drive a car.

Speaker 2 And this,

Speaker 2 you know, gets

Speaker 2 established early and deeply in a young person. And, you know, we're talking here, I don't know, second grader, third graders.

Speaker 2 I mean, as much as I make light of my mother, and I don't make light of her at all, but sometimes feel challenged by the education that I received. It was not a bad education.

Speaker 2 It was across the boards. It was very difficult for me societally, but I was grounded in music.
I was grounded in movement.

Speaker 2 I was grounded in these different forms of community activity, including string quartets.

Speaker 2 I was grounded in the family-owned Foothill Drive-In Theater between Rialto and Fontana.

Speaker 2 Okay, I grew up from the time I was eight until I went to college watching a screen and getting myself into the snack bar when there would be a run on hot dogs because it was really boring up here and I saw boring come get to the snack bar, sell hot dogs, okay?

Speaker 2 Plus, which it was a place where the speakers often didn't work.

Speaker 2 There were a lot of cars, 600 cars was a big, big movie house, okay, and a big screen. And so I learned to watch action and without sound.

Speaker 2 And I learned to watch movement and what communicated without language.

Speaker 1 It's incredible you're saying this. One of the things that I listed I wanted to talk to you about is this concept of wordlessness.

Speaker 1 A few years ago, I started practicing something because someone said, you should try this.

Speaker 1 You should try and walk down the street and just feel what's going on and try not to get into a verbal dialogue about it

Speaker 1 and just experience life through the lens of like what it must be like to be some other species of animal. And

Speaker 1 this might sound silly to people, but it's an incredible portal

Speaker 1 into

Speaker 1 how limited our experience of things normally is. And maybe for some people, they're always in wordlessness and they need to get more into words.
But it sounds like you had an incredible upbringing.

Speaker 1 First of all, you were taught to be hardworking. I mean, I think one can't overemphasize how incredible, I mean, hard work is awesome because it's a super skill for anything you encounter, right?

Speaker 1 But watching the movies without sound,

Speaker 1 that's incredible.

Speaker 2 Well, even more, I had twin brothers and a sister who was born three days before they were a year old. So essentially, they were triplets.

Speaker 2 And my mother gave up and started feeding them all with the same spoon and put them in the same room.

Speaker 2 And they developed idolalia, which happens with, you probably know this, a certain percentage of twins, a language before they learn to speak English.

Speaker 2 They evolve because they're so close to one another all the time. And it's a guttural

Speaker 2 syllabic form of communication.

Speaker 2 I could speak it, but I could certainly understand it. My parents could not understand it nor speak it.
So I became the family translator.

Speaker 2 So from day one, I'm observing and serving the audience. I love it.
And it's non-verbal.

Speaker 1 This is wild. I'm close friends with a pair of identical twins.
And they tell this story from their childhood where one walks in and goes up to the toast of the other one. They're women now.

Speaker 1 They were little girls then. And takes her fingers and goes like this over the toast.

Speaker 1 To this day, the other one won't eat that type of toast.

Speaker 1 But it was like, it wasn't like, oh, this is bad.

Speaker 1 Something was communicated in the movement. And to this day, will not touch that type of toast.

Speaker 1 And it's so funny, and they have tons of stories about this is that they can communicate without words. Right.

Speaker 2 And a lot of it was signed. I don't remember a lot of this was bread and butter.

Speaker 2 And so very early I got the idea that movement communicates. Who needs all this garble on top and your brain has got it? What is that right or left?

Speaker 2 That's going to be that side is going to be right. You don't need to translate it into language to understand what the movement is asking for.

Speaker 1 But unlike so many artists and creatives,

Speaker 1 the world is very fortunate that

Speaker 1 you were asked to be a translator because you don't exist in some,

Speaker 1 I could think of names here, but I don't want to insult anyone. There are some artists that are genuinely weird to the rest of us because we can't understand them.

Speaker 1 Now, they're not necessarily weird, they're just different.

Speaker 1 But I have to imagine there are probably many, many incredible creatives whose work we never hear or see

Speaker 1 because there's no one there to translate it for them, and they certainly can't do it for themselves. You have to have a certain amount of fluency in the world of business, in the world of

Speaker 1 being able to communicate with words, otherwise,

Speaker 1 your work doesn't get out there.

Speaker 1 Maybe that's why there are so few people that really sit

Speaker 1 where they do in their craft.

Speaker 2 I think that a word here is objectivity.

Speaker 2 That

Speaker 2 in doing work, there are moments where you have to get outside that work and you have to look at it as an outsider.

Speaker 1 How do you do that? Do you film it and watch?

Speaker 2 I do it by pulling myself out of the action.

Speaker 2 I mean...

Speaker 2 There were times when I danced, right? And I danced inside as well as trying to get outside. This is genuinely a way to become extremely neurotic, and it's a very difficult task.

Speaker 2 In some ways, it's very rewarding because the whole thing evolves from you, and plus which you're the jury.

Speaker 2 But it's not going to be, you can't maintain it very long.

Speaker 2 And anybody who makes something wants to have, anybody wants to have the capacity to be unemotional about it, get back, forget how you feel about it. What does it say to you?

Speaker 2 You, in a way, become your own translator. Does this read?

Speaker 1 You said something really, really useful, I think, about critics in your book.

Speaker 1 You said that the good ones,

Speaker 1 the honest ones,

Speaker 1 the ones that aren't just trying to get some clickbait or get someone to read their story so they can get their couple thousand bucks so they can make rent that month.

Speaker 1 The really good critics keep us honest about who we're supposed to be as creators. Now, that makes it sound like

Speaker 1 people who aren't creating stuff that's being critiqued out in the world don't have anything to learn from what you're about to say.

Speaker 1 But I would argue that from the very beginning when we start to create anything, a short story, a poem, even if we're just daydreaming about what we might create, it's impossible to not get into the, well, what are people going to, how is this going to land?

Speaker 1 What are people going to think? So learning how to hold critique is critical to the creative process, even if journalists aren't eventually writing about your work.

Speaker 1 How do you work with inner critic, which is really about outer critics, let's be honest?

Speaker 1 How do you work with that? And what's your relationship to that?

Speaker 2 This is very, very difficult because you have to love what you're doing.

Speaker 2 Anything that's going to be really meaningful, there has to be an extraordinary degree of love. And we do refer

Speaker 2 in

Speaker 2 my

Speaker 2 office to, you know, of the child of that work. Each dance, in a way, is your gift and it's your child.
And somebody's out here and they're going to slit its throat.

Speaker 2 How are you supposed to feel about that?

Speaker 2 Also, because what we do is very, very personal.

Speaker 2 Musicians translate it into sound. There's a certain distancing from them personally.
We're very personal.

Speaker 2 You

Speaker 2 speak bad of my dance, you speak bad of my body. That don't go down so well.

Speaker 2 Right. So it's difficult to process the exterior critic's word.
And on the other hand, as I said,

Speaker 2 one still has to, even though you love the thing, you gotta, I mean, you know, long ago, my trainer actually

Speaker 2 had two huge wolfhounds, and I made the mistake one day of criticizing one of them. I mean, never criticize a guy's dog, okay?

Speaker 1 This is true.

Speaker 2 Yes, you can criticize the child, but not the dog, all right?

Speaker 1 Wolf hounds are beautiful animals. They are.
Very majestic animals.

Speaker 2 Yes, they had to.

Speaker 2 But so, yeah,

Speaker 2 there you are. You know, this critic just called your dog a bad name.

Speaker 2 And okay, maybe your dog has got only three legs and six months to live. I'm being cruel, but am I? I'm being realistic.
Your dog has three legs and six months to live.

Speaker 1 That's not criticism. That's an

Speaker 2 observation.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but it comes across because it's less than perfect.

Speaker 2 So you see,

Speaker 2 it's a difficult arena and there's no single answer and you gotta, it's like neon. You got to shift on, shift off, shift on, shift off.

Speaker 2 Is it crazy? A little.

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Speaker 1 Every once in a while, I find myself thinking, oh, you know, in the early 2000s, you know, the way art and music and media was, it was better.

Speaker 1 In the, you know, growing up in this area, but then I realized that people have probably been saying that sort of thing forever. And that for young people now,

Speaker 1 I have a niece who just went off to college, like, you know, she's not thinking about how it was back then. For her, it's happening now.

Speaker 1 And I think it's hard for us to adapt to the fact that

Speaker 1 we were young once and now we're less young, and

Speaker 1 that it's all new for them. And so the

Speaker 1 question is, and they don't have that frame of reference. So when it comes to critics, when it comes to dance and art,

Speaker 1 do you see things getting better, worse? Or do you just think of it as like, oh, it's just, it's always been just an evolution?

Speaker 1 I have a hard time going, oh, you know, we had great music in the 90s. Like, it was awesome.
Music came out.

Speaker 2 They should have been around in the 70s.

Speaker 1 Exactly. You're making, exactly.
That's the point. Right.
So, but for people who are 16, 18 now, they're not thinking that way.

Speaker 1 They're thinking, we got all that music, and there's all this other great music.

Speaker 1 So I think the goal perhaps is to just stay open.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think it's not judgmental. It's not good or bad.
It's what can I learn from this? What can I take from this? What can I transpose from this to put over here? What can I use? Make everything

Speaker 2 transactional.

Speaker 1 Can you elaborate on that?

Speaker 2 No, I like it like that.

Speaker 1 Full stop.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Now, transactional, what serves me here? What can I use?

Speaker 2 Sometimes transactional gets a bad name. You are trying to use something.
Yeah, I'm trying to use something.

Speaker 1 Well, the whole thing of, you know, great artists steal, you know, nothing is a new idea, this kind of thing. Do you believe that?

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 2 To some degree. I mean, that's why it's one of my privileges

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 work with the life of a composer, if I'm serious about that. I worked on Amadeus, right? So I read all of Mozart's writings, which are voluminous,

Speaker 2 and looked at every manuscript he had ever touched. And I was given access to this.
Why wouldn't you take advantage of that?

Speaker 1 For the movie Amadeus.

Speaker 2 Love that movie. Thank you.

Speaker 1 We did too. Love that movie.

Speaker 1 The images of the lime being thrown over the body is still

Speaker 1 imprinted in my mind. But it tells you about that era and

Speaker 1 how little people had.

Speaker 2 Totally, and how

Speaker 2 much was preserved from the era. We shot in Prague for Vienna.
It was hard working there,

Speaker 2 still under the regime.

Speaker 2 That, in a way, put it closer to what Mozart had to deal with, the sort of restrictions that he had. But the research that went into that picture was enormous.

Speaker 2 All of the illumination was from candles. All of the illumination.
The candles, they used the same beeswax as they had used 200 years before.

Speaker 2 All the mechanisms on stage were what were used in the original productions.

Speaker 2 And because we shot in the opera house, which had not been updated, in fact, it's one of the ways Milos got back in, was to say, okay, we will pay for the reconstruction of the opera house when we're done.

Speaker 2 And they took him up on it. But I was using the same mechanics under the stage that Mozart had.
The door that opened into the orchestra was the door he touched when he came in.

Speaker 2 to join the orchestra. And we had scenes that had live fire.
We were swinging live fire around. You don't do this, but we were.

Speaker 2 And out of the floor, there were little holes and we figured out that those little holes were a special kind of pollen that they put down and if they lit them they would send up sparks and we were doing the sparks from the the floor out of the pollen.

Speaker 2 And you had chandeliers coming down that had hundreds of candles. And in between takes, you're shifting all of the candles in like 50 chandeliers coming down here before you can do the next take.

Speaker 2 Meanwhile, you got the clothes that are in here, and there are no gussets. So nobody's arm is going any higher than this.
You got the men in heels like this. Nobody is running with huge strides.

Speaker 2 Stuff like that. Wow.
Now, am I, you know, I don't know what to do with that kind of information other than to marvel at human invention.

Speaker 1 We've definitely come a long way.

Speaker 2 I don't know that we've come a long way. Things were different, and they maximized their resources.

Speaker 1 I will say candles are better than white light LEDs, but that's a topic from another project.

Speaker 2 Probably. When are we going to do that?

Speaker 1 Incandescents are better

Speaker 1 than LEDs, but

Speaker 1 I'm just thinking about all these candles, and I'm wondering whether or not it was very, very warm to work in that environment.

Speaker 2 I'm sure it was very, very warm.

Speaker 2 People were sweating all the time. What do you think smell was in the 18th century? Very stenchy, is how smell was in the 18th century.

Speaker 1 I had no idea what went into the making of that film. A spectacular film.
Everyone should see that.

Speaker 2 It was real.

Speaker 1 It'll also give you

Speaker 1 a window into how psychiatric illness was treated. There's that brutal scene from a, I guess they called them insane asylums.

Speaker 2 Yep.

Speaker 1 And nowadays, we probably understand that 95% of those people were probably suffering from things that

Speaker 1 nice at-home care probably would have.

Speaker 2 Or there's a pill for it. Yeah, or there's a pill for.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Or a combination of sunlight and pills and other things. Speaking of which,

Speaker 1 What's your view on modern versus ancient medicine versus the body just being really smart?

Speaker 2 I know not much about either ancient nor modern medicine. I'm not sure I'm equipped to have a view

Speaker 2 on these things.

Speaker 2 I simply myself try to stay as

Speaker 2 close to what is,

Speaker 2 forgive the word, natural. as possible.
In terms of eating, I am currently not eating,

Speaker 2 except for this trip, okay? No carbs, no sugar, all right?

Speaker 2 Which I find to be the keto diet, I find to be more manageable. I can control it better.

Speaker 2 I know where my weight is, I can feel how close to the bone, where wada, whata, I got a hee-ho-ha. You can't do that if you're eating a lot of pasta.

Speaker 2 So that's, and also,

Speaker 2 I fortunately cannot cook, therefore, I basically eat everything raw. I can eat meat raw.
I certainly eat vegetables raw.

Speaker 2 I am exaggerating. I can use the oven, okay? I can boil water, but that's about it.
No sauces ever.

Speaker 2 Nothing decorative. Just, you know, I've often said if there were a pill for food, I'd take it.
I'm not sure I would because I'm not sure it would have what I needed in it.

Speaker 2 I'm not sure I'm getting that anyway, but at least I'm making an effort. And I know where it comes from.
I don't like mystery a lot.

Speaker 1 So it sounds like meat, fish, fruits, and vegetables are your staples.

Speaker 2 Say so.

Speaker 1 Yeah, likewise. And I think it's funny that nowadays saying it makes total sense when we say, you know, the carbs and sugar are really the

Speaker 1 problem in most cases.

Speaker 1 And whereas for years it felt like the public health space around nutrition was utterly confused. It was like fat is the bad thing, then protein, and then meat is the bad thing.

Speaker 1 I mean, deli meats probably are not great for us,

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 healthily sourced.

Speaker 2 We went through a period, probably of about a year or even two, where we carb loaded because we thought we'd have more energy, we'd be stronger, we just got heavier.

Speaker 2 But anyway, maybe we had a little more power.

Speaker 1 I have a friend whose daughter is very

Speaker 1 interested in ballet. She

Speaker 1 actually is part of a conservatory that... goes up that they actually live in San Francisco.

Speaker 1 I don't know that she's part, I don't think she's part of the San Francisco ballet, but there's something adjacent to that. And I said, you know, how is that?

Speaker 1 You know, because you hear these stereotypes of, you know, it's brutal on young girls, probably boys as well, but minds about their weight and the training and it's unhealthy.

Speaker 1 And he said, nowadays they've adjusted for some of that and they really try and keep a healthier environment. What's your view on that? I mean, standards versus health.

Speaker 1 I mean, this is a topic that spills over in everything. In science, I used to work 100-hour weeks, 100, 10, 0.
I heard there was a guy that worked 101, so I worked 102.

Speaker 1 Then I realized that I couldn't sustain that. I'm not suggesting anyone do that, but everyone has a kind of war story from their time,

Speaker 1 but

Speaker 1 now there does seem to be more care taken to mental health, physical health.

Speaker 1 So, how do you balance that in the world of dance where you want standards to continue to stand or rise, but you also don't want people

Speaker 1 mentally destroyed?

Speaker 2 This is a hard one.

Speaker 2 There's always going to be a trade-off to some degree. I mean, the stress of performance is whether it's athletic performance or

Speaker 2 dance performance is extreme. And unfortunately, it's been my experience that the better the performer, the worse the nerves before.

Speaker 2 Huh.

Speaker 2 Sorry about that.

Speaker 2 The more intensely important that curtain going up is to that person. And the possibility of failure is always there.

Speaker 2 And the degree of rehearsing that's going to address that is, why didn't you do more? Is always the response.

Speaker 2 So that is, I'm sorry, it's a reality, it's a choice.

Speaker 2 Don't choose that profession.

Speaker 2 We can't make life totally nice. It is partially what it is.
Choose something else.

Speaker 2 You know, often, and I'm not alone in this, one hears it often, you know, a parent or a child even will come up, can I be a dancer? I say, don't do it. Find something else if you possibly can.

Speaker 2 If you can't, be a dancer.

Speaker 1 Because you want to set that

Speaker 1 thick line.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, it has,

Speaker 2 and there are other folks who will find their own way to address that line and who will massage that line. And it's part of creativity is addressing those old lines of boundaries,

Speaker 2 classical, modern, oi.

Speaker 1 It's interesting when you put that barrier, you naturally select for the people that really want it. Yes.

Speaker 1 Yesterday, I had an early morning call with a friend of mine who's a former, what they call tier one SEAL team operator.

Speaker 1 So he was in the Navy SEALs, but then there's another selection process within it for the

Speaker 1 Tier 1 or the sort of elite within that already elite community. And And he has children.
And I said,

Speaker 1 are they interested in military? He said, one of them is. And I said, is he interested in going to the teams? And he's like, he is.
And I said, what are you telling him?

Speaker 1 And he said, I'm telling him not to do it. And he keeps coming back that he wants to do it.
And I'm reassured. He keeps telling him, don't do it.
You're going to hate it.

Speaker 1 It's going to be the worst thing ever. And he keeps coming back, no, I want to do it.

Speaker 1 So he's convinced now that he actually wants to do it.

Speaker 2 Well, but unfortunately, telling a kid not to do it is a bait

Speaker 2 and can just engender, I want to do it, just to prove that

Speaker 2 you're going to go up against authority. That's not the right reason to select.
Sure.

Speaker 2 Better to just say, you got to really, really want to do this. Even more, can't you find something else? And if they can question it, they don't want to do it enough.

Speaker 1 He did add that if he feels he likes it more than it sucks, his his words, then he'll be okay.

Speaker 1 I would buy that. There's got to be some tilt in the seesaw more towards I like this more than it sucks.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'd buy that.

Speaker 2 That's fair.

Speaker 1 And I see a lot of parallels between the communities that you come from and he comes from, Franklin.

Speaker 2 It is elite.

Speaker 2 It has a price to pay.

Speaker 1 Do you think nowadays, because of social media and the internet, there's a larger pool of dancers to select from and talent that gets selected

Speaker 1 to work with you, for instance, is better because it's just such a bigger pool that that top 1% reflects an even better 1%?

Speaker 2 It's different

Speaker 2 because the talent is being trained and challenged in a different way as young people. In other words, there are now competitive

Speaker 2 activities for dance. I started to say activity sports for dance.
It's not quite a sport, though it converges, which is fine.

Speaker 2 But when I was

Speaker 2 evolving as a dancer, we had very strict borders. This was tap, this was ballet, this was modern, this is jazz over here.

Speaker 2 And you could step across the borders and try out different of these, even acquire knowledge from all of them to become something, but you had to do it on your own.

Speaker 2 And then you would, you know, work to gain acceptance into whatever performing arena.

Speaker 2 Now, children, very young children, eight years old, even younger, six-year-old kids, there are competitions for children as dancers or as performers.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 this engenders a totally different purpose and performance in the kid. I was not,

Speaker 2 I'm Buster Keaton, right? I take it on the chin, stoic, down, out, or I make the move, right?

Speaker 2 The kids are out there to sell it. And they're out there to get their points.
And it is partially in their technique, technique, but it's also immediately in their manipulation of the audience.

Speaker 2 Great, that's called performing. And maybe you'll be a good actor.

Speaker 2 But in the meantime, you're short-changing your technique because you're not asking the audience to just gauge you on what you can do physically, but how you can sell it because you want those points.

Speaker 2 And so do your parents. So these competitions, in a way, are very difficult.
And for a long time, I wouldn't work with competition-trained dancers.

Speaker 2 Now I find that it's broadened, and that the kids are more sophisticated in the ways that they

Speaker 2 attack technique for performing. And they're also hardened in a way.
I can put them in younger. I don't worry, they're going to be nervous.
They're going to be nervous.

Speaker 2 They were nervous when they were out here trying to get, you know, graded 30 points on the Wadawada and the Wichi Witcha to get the hits for the Wadawada.

Speaker 2 And, you know, they're no longer nervous about squats, so put them in. This is great.
But in the meantime, they

Speaker 2 are doing it for reasons outside of the thing itself, for what they can gain from it, from their internet hits, from their hanga, their hina, the wada, whata, as opposed to just doing it for the thing itself and taking what comes from it.

Speaker 2 It's different.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that extrinsic reward, while it's important to keep people moving forward if they want to be a professional,

Speaker 1 it definitely contaminates the

Speaker 1 core motivation.

Speaker 2 And what the kid will accomplish, because they won't have to do it the hard way. They'll do it the easy way if it works as well.
I was always trained to do it the hard way.

Speaker 2 You can always do it the easy way, train for the hard way.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I can see that in performers. And a performer who has done it the hard way has more range.

Speaker 2 And when they work, you're going to be more interested in them because they're making more choices. And an interesting artist is a choice maker.
An interesting performer is always about making choice.

Speaker 2 That's what will keep you focused on them. If they're just doing what they think is going to win, you're going, really?

Speaker 1 Listen, I love social media. I teach on social media.
But the problem with social media as it relates to craft and feedback, et cetera,

Speaker 1 is that

Speaker 1 it puts you on a reinforcement schedule of you did something yesterday, you can put it out there and you can immediately get the response.

Speaker 1 I think there's a sweet spot between practice, mastery, and feedback. And when animals, of which we are,

Speaker 1 we adapt to certain contingencies. You know, every 48 hours, I expect something back.
Every 72 hours, every,

Speaker 1 I always tell people if they want to do a PhD, you got to love the topic.

Speaker 1 You got to embrace the lifestyle, but also, if nothing else, it will teach you to work very, very hard for four years to get something.

Speaker 1 Sometimes there are a couple publications in there or more or less, but if nothing else, it will teach you how to work very, very hard for something that only comes to you at earliest four years from now, which I think is very valuable.

Speaker 2 Even four years

Speaker 2 is like a promise.

Speaker 2 You might want to think about working for no reward.

Speaker 2 And after four years,

Speaker 2 you don't get anything other than the opportunity to continue.

Speaker 1 I love that. I love that.
My graduate advisor put this in to me. We published a paper in science.
I was so excited. And I said, we're going to throw a party.
Are we going to celebrate?

Speaker 1 And she just laughed. And she was like, I could buy you a pizza, but I'm not even going to do that.
She said something to that extent. I can't remember the exact words, but I remember what came next.

Speaker 1 She said, you already got the party.

Speaker 2 Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 And I was like, you're right. I love doing the experiment.
And we went on, I think we published close to 10 papers together.

Speaker 1 And when I wasn't thinking about the the phd in fact they forced me to take my qualifying exam i didn't want to tell you i just loved doing experiments and if you love doing experiments turns out you publish a lot of papers publish a lot of papers turns out it's easy to get a phd right exactly etc you're doing something for the right reasons not to get something else

Speaker 1 but it's hard to explain that to someone who's really driven Not even nowadays. It's just hard to explain that to somebody because I think people who are really driven also, they want people to

Speaker 1 understand something.

Speaker 2 They need to understand excellence on their own terms, not from outside, but from inside.

Speaker 2 I can do more. I can do more.
That's what I'm interested in. Oh, you like that? Not enough.

Speaker 2 I want more.

Speaker 1 Just letting that really sink in. I totally agree.
I'm just trying to think of the messaging that

Speaker 1 works. for kids.

Speaker 2 Almost none.

Speaker 2 I have a grandson, believe me.

Speaker 1 They operate on their own,

Speaker 1 in their own frame. Yes.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But it worked on you. Worked on me to some extent.

Speaker 2 Yes, because my mother was a concert pianist and she wasn't able to, the war came and she started teaching to help support the family.

Speaker 2 And in a way, I think I was aware of the sacrifice that she had made, but I also heard the level of excellence from the time I was a...

Speaker 2 teeny itsy bitsy i went to her lesson she'd continued and i heard i heard the practicing, and I think even with no training, I heard that that was better than that, and they got closer.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 you develop your own morality.

Speaker 2 You don't have somebody telling you what is good and what is bad.

Speaker 1 It sounds like, if I may, that you

Speaker 1 develop your own internal standard.

Speaker 1 That's very high.

Speaker 2 It's very high. It's unattainable, and you're going to hate yourself a lot of the time.

Speaker 1 They don't tell you that, but it's.

Speaker 2 Well, I'm just saying. Yeah, it's true.

Speaker 1 I don't know if hate's a strong word.

Speaker 2 It is a strong word.

Speaker 1 Maybe not satisfied, but.

Speaker 2 Sorry, it's called hate.

Speaker 1 I love your honesty.

Speaker 1 You said before, before you can think outside the box, you have to have a box.

Speaker 1 But you also talk about having an actual box.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Explain.

Speaker 2 Well, the actual box holds the tangible items that are very sensory, that have the feel or the smell or the weight of when you first thought that idea.

Speaker 2 Maybe your dance isn't going to look like a rock, but when you picked up that rock, there was a certain kind of physical resistance, and that suggested a kind of movement.

Speaker 2 And if you don't keep that rock, you'll forget sometimes where it came from. I was working

Speaker 2 on a film script once, and I was told, look, write down your initial instinct, your initial idea for what the film is to be.

Speaker 2 Put it in a drawer and lock the drawer because there are times when you're going to not know what the fuck you're doing.

Speaker 2 Unlock the drawer and remind yourself. That rock can remind you of that original instinct, that original movement that evolved from you.
You go, oh yeah, yeah, that's where I am.

Speaker 2 That's what I'm doing. But we overthink things and we compound it, and it's not that complicated.
You want to keep it as simple as possible.

Speaker 2 You want to, I think, keep it as close to the initial reason you wanted to do it, the initial sense of excitement, and again, to use the same old word, love, that you had for that moment in time that you wanted to share.

Speaker 1 I love the idea of anchoring to physical items.

Speaker 1 around something that's conceptual because the conceptual journey can be, whether it's a book or a dance or whatever, a podcast, it can be so opaque at times.

Speaker 1 And you're just, you're trying to stay anchored to the center, to the spine, but it can be really tough. And having a physical object that you understand means

Speaker 1 A, and that's it.

Speaker 1 It's non-negotiable.

Speaker 2 There are certain things you don't forget.

Speaker 2 Those are the important things. That's what truth is.
You don't forget it.

Speaker 1 I guess this is the reason we have plaques and wedding rings and things like that, is they symbolize something in a very simple way that everyone understands.

Speaker 1 And in this case, it's important that you understand.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but it's a symbol of

Speaker 2 that's different.

Speaker 2 Symbol is different from the actual rock. The rock is the thing itself.
It's not the symbol of anything. It's the rock.

Speaker 1 So it has a property that is what you're trying to thread through your work.

Speaker 2 Yes. Doesn't stand for something else.

Speaker 1 It actually has that thing.

Speaker 2 And that's in a way why ritual, because ritual is not quite the same as practice. Ritual is done for a purpose.
It's done to accomplish an end.

Speaker 2 Purpose, you just do it.

Speaker 1 So let's break those apart, ritual, purpose, and habit.

Speaker 1 If you were to separate those out.

Speaker 2 Okay. Ritual to accomplish a goal or a kind of control.

Speaker 2 Practice,

Speaker 2 a consistent, ongoing activity

Speaker 2 that somehow keeps reoccurring. Habit, you do because you're in the habit of doing it.
I mean, habit and practice are actually very close.

Speaker 2 Habit is dangerous because you got to do it that way. That's the habit for it.
Practice is just get the job done. You can do it different ways, but get the job done.

Speaker 2 Habit, you got to do it the same way.

Speaker 1 Throughout the entire listening to your book, I had this question in the back of my mind. Did you take weekends off?

Speaker 2 No, what's a weekend? It's, you know, it's seven-day work week here.

Speaker 1 Love it.

Speaker 1 You've gotten things like honorary degrees from Harvard, this kind of thing, a lot of accolades from a lot of different places.

Speaker 1 Do those things matter to you?

Speaker 2 No, they matter more to other folks. And sometimes I have trouble with them.

Speaker 2 They don't tell me anything that I have done or, more importantly, will do.

Speaker 2 Can I honestly say it's not nice for somebody to say to you, you've done a great job? I can't say that.

Speaker 2 I can, you know, try to feel that it's, I think, one thing about that kind of action is that it takes a magnanimous person to recall that they have a goal that's going to be ongoing no matter how many accolades they get.

Speaker 2 But the people giving the accolade want to matter. They want to count.
They want to believe that what you have done is important. And in a way, you owe it to them more than to yourself to accept that.

Speaker 1 I know you don't like the term, but you came up with it.

Speaker 1 And I think it's very interesting and important, which is this notion of scratching when you're searching for the next idea or the idea, like this notion of scratching.

Speaker 1 Could you tell people what scratching is about?

Speaker 2 Okay, two

Speaker 2 conditions where scratching is

Speaker 2 kind of an approach. One is you're really lost and you

Speaker 2 have

Speaker 2 no

Speaker 2 sense that there's any progress to be made and if so, where's the direction to go? And you have to be patient

Speaker 2 with yourself in the situations and just try something.

Speaker 2 And did it mean anything or not? And having the faith to continue that is a kind of scratching. The other is, you know perfectly well where you're going, you just don't know how to get there.
And in

Speaker 2 scratching at or

Speaker 2 essaying or trying that approach, you still got to remember where your basic thing is, but you know you've got somewhere to go.

Speaker 2 That's a nicer place to be than when you are just in an absolute vacuum and scratching for something that has meaning.

Speaker 1 And scratching can take a lot of forms, you've said. It could be going to a museum and seeing what captures your eye.

Speaker 1 It could be just living your daily life and just making sure that you capture anything that kind of pokes through. Is that right?

Speaker 2 Being open about

Speaker 2 things and being willing to be caught off guard, being willing to be surprised.

Speaker 1 Could you talk about movement and longevity?

Speaker 2 I mean, you know.

Speaker 2 How long have we got?

Speaker 1 As long as you want.

Speaker 2 I don't want. It's It's my least favorite topic, and it's my most important topic at the moment, which is why it's my least favorite topic.
Bodies alter

Speaker 2 every so often, okay? A body at 10 is going to be different from a body at 20. What it can accomplish 20 to 40, there's a kind of continuity in there that is encouraging.

Speaker 2 Over 40, body is going to start behaving differently. 47,

Speaker 2 50s is getting a little bit numbed, and all of a sudden, you're feeling restricted, and you get pissed off.

Speaker 2 And you have got to find a way of respecting the fact that you can no longer do what you did when you were 20 or 25. But you still, you're pretty potent, and that's a good thing.

Speaker 2 And I managed to push that. I was dancing still pretty hard until I was about 65, which is a long reach.

Speaker 2 But after 65, I began to feel really restricted no you can't do just anything even once

Speaker 2 and oh by the way what you're doing might not be strengthening the body you might be weakening the body repeating that oh my god what do i do here nothing

Speaker 2 and 70

Speaker 2 functional

Speaker 2 80 sucks

Speaker 2 You're restricted now and your body has lost facility and you can't pretend it's any other way because you see it and everybody else sees it and you need help and you don't like help.

Speaker 2 How do you maintain your independence and still accept graciously help as a reality and not a shame?

Speaker 2 How do you accept a declining body as not demoralizing?

Speaker 2 Those are tough questions. And

Speaker 2 particularly if you're invested in the body and it's where you learn what's true and what isn't true. It could be true for somebody who can still do it.

Speaker 2 It's not true for you because you can't, you still don't have that speed. You don't have that flexibility.
You don't have that option.

Speaker 2 And so it becomes, I suppose, and I haven't quite accomplished this, but I think about it obviously a lot. We all do,

Speaker 2 is an exchange rate.

Speaker 2 Okay, I'm going to have to give up a kind of sort of physical independence, but in exchange for this, I can have a lot of goodwill.

Speaker 2 How can I circulate that goodwill to get this thing done that still feels as though it's a worthy enough accomplishment to offer?

Speaker 2 But it's a totally different mechanism, and it's physicality translated differently. And,

Speaker 2 you know, one,

Speaker 2 I always in the studio, I was a very good dancer, and I managed to build a career because dancers wanted to work with me because they become better dancers.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 now it is not a body that is dancing better than any other dancer.

Speaker 2 It is a body that is not moving and that needs still to be able to correspond to a great dancer with many, many options that you have something to offer them and that you can realize something with them that is of great value.

Speaker 2 I dislike the word mentor. I don't think about that much because I like better the word apprentice.
That people learn, you don't teach them, they learn.

Speaker 2 And that is a component here. And I think that that's a kind of, I mean, that's the upside: you can still be mutual.
You can still share this process. And it's the same as it ever was.

Speaker 2 You bring what you got, they bring what they got, you put them together, and you get more than the independent what-a-watas.

Speaker 2 And that can still happen

Speaker 2 if you let it happen and if you don't get too pissed off.

Speaker 1 Although being a little pissed might help in terms of the pushing through.

Speaker 2 Everybody needs a little pissed all the time.

Speaker 1 The

Speaker 1 thing I heard you say once,

Speaker 1 which really stuck with me, was that

Speaker 1 you think that perhaps one of the reasons why people age at the level of the brain and the level of curiosity is that they start moving less, that it works in that direction.

Speaker 1 And I started observing people of different ages. And indeed, even just the amount of gesticulating that people do starts to decline over time.
You're an exception to this.

Speaker 1 I know only a few other exceptions to that rule. I think it is a rule.
You look at kids, they're moving all the time. And I think it...

Speaker 1 drops off fairly linearly after, as you said, at probably about age 40 or so, it really, people start moving less.

Speaker 1 There's a species of ocean animal that when it lands down on a rock, it actually eats its own brain.

Speaker 1 Except the part that just keeps it alive there to sense when something swims over it and then it can do its thing. In other words, if we stop moving, our nervous system atrophies.

Speaker 1 And that's very clear. And it seems that the distal, the fingers, and the feet, the neurons that control those, certainly lose their strength before we lose our trunk strength and so on.

Speaker 1 So there's this kind of outward to center atrophy. So

Speaker 1 move more, move more, move more in every aspect of life seems to be the takeaway.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's not just more, it's degree also. I think that with age, we recess, we pull backwards, we reach out less even than we can.
Partially the sight begins to decline the hearing.

Speaker 2 And a kind of fear sets in. You still have to be able to maintain a fearlessness in regards to boundaries that

Speaker 2 you don't have to pull up shy. You don't have to pull up short of a boundary.
You can still address that boundary.

Speaker 2 It's just you're not going to be able to reach as far across as you could have in each of these different decades. It's just, you know, you could do one thing when you were, you know, two years old.

Speaker 2 You can do another thing now.

Speaker 2 And it's accepting that

Speaker 2 everything can give you pushback. You have to accept pushback.
You have to still accept pushback. It's going to feel differently, but you still want it.

Speaker 1 Maybe that's the thing to seek, is that friction. Yes.

Speaker 1 In describing dancers and dance, you talked a lot about taking up space.

Speaker 1 It's interesting. Now we're talking about people reflexively taking up less and less space as they get older.

Speaker 1 Voice occupies space too.

Speaker 1 So it's kind of interesting to think about movement as the fundamental way in which we have action at a distance or impact at a distance.

Speaker 1 And as we, as you said,

Speaker 2 success, yeah. Shrivel.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's the thing. Maybe that's the thing to fight against.

Speaker 2 You know, the word fight, we fight against everything, and I do it too. We all do, do it.

Speaker 2 We've got to look at it, I say to myself,

Speaker 2 as an opportunity.

Speaker 2 It's not a fight. It's an opportunity to

Speaker 2 keep the pressure on. I mean,

Speaker 2 we become frightened.

Speaker 1 I've seen that in some older folks.

Speaker 1 There's a fear that sets in.

Speaker 2 Right. And that's not necessary because we also got compensations

Speaker 2 for no reason. I'm thinking here of Camu had twins.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 one of them was for some reason thinking she was going to go blind.

Speaker 2 I guess she'd been diagnosed.

Speaker 2 She started practicing being blind. She started

Speaker 2 keeping her eyes closed.

Speaker 2 This is a 12-year-old taking a cane and starting trying to find her way as a blind person. She'd see perfectly well.
She was providing against the future.

Speaker 2 You're not going to provide against death, so just get over it and keep, you know, pushing through like you can see because you can.

Speaker 1 It's like meet the friction that's there, but at that edge, not any further out.

Speaker 2 At a reasonable point where there is a competition, not where you're

Speaker 2 pre-defeated.

Speaker 1 Speaking of taking up space,

Speaker 1 you've mentioned before that the fact that your name is Twyla perhaps shaped you in some ways. Yes.

Speaker 1 I'm fascinated by this, that how names shape our self-perception, how they shape others' perceptions of us, and how to some extent we might live into those perceptions. Yes.

Speaker 2 My mother,

Speaker 2 as with everything,

Speaker 2 provided me with a moniker that would

Speaker 2 serve me. So the name Twila she saw in a newspaper, but it was spelled with an I.

Speaker 2 The original Twyla, who was a pig-calling princess in the next county.

Speaker 2 Twilight, I forget her last name. In any case, my mother changed it to a Y because she thought Twyla with a Y would look better on a marquee.
Okay, she was right.

Speaker 2 That the T had to be selected for the alliteration between Twila and Thorpe, T T.

Speaker 2 Marilyn Monroe, all stars have got alliterative names. She's not wrong.
It makes it easier to remember. It also seems to have a reinforcing quality.
One name is a T, another T must be good.

Speaker 2 Two T's, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, this this is all my mother's subliminal thinking to provide me with the course of stardom. Should I select? That's what I should go towards.

Speaker 1 God bless her.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's what I said.

Speaker 1 Well, Twila Thorpe,

Speaker 1 thank you so much for coming here today.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 It is a real honor for me.

Speaker 2 No, it's fun.

Speaker 1 A real pleasure, a real honor. And I know you are uncomfortable with accolades, so I'm just going to barrel into them by just saying that it's an honor because I think your work is incredible.

Speaker 1 I think the book is incredible. So many people that I told I was going to sit down with you today, I'm surprised they're not beating down the doors outside.

Speaker 1 And that's because I think you represent a lot more than just incredible elite level dance and choreography. You certainly represent that and the arts.

Speaker 1 And thank you for your comments about supporting the arts, that those will propagate far and wide and hopefully have an impact.

Speaker 1 But you also represent this spirit behind creating things, leaning into friction, but also embracing the, for lack of a better word, the dance of it all, including what comes from the outside and the internal process.

Speaker 1 This is a complicated thing, and I know many, many people want it or

Speaker 1 just love to see people striving and creating. And so you really embody that spirit.
And

Speaker 1 the words aren't enough to express how grateful I am and how grateful millions and millions of people are. So thank you.

Speaker 1 So God bless your mother for naming you Twyla and God bless you for coming here today. Thank you, sweetheart.

Speaker 2 And God bless you for doing this

Speaker 2 and for believing it's worthwhile. So thank you.

Speaker 1 Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Twyla Tharp. To learn more about her work and to find a link to her truly spectacular book, The Creative Habit, please see the show note captions.

Speaker 1 If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us.

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Speaker 1 If you have questions for me or comments about the podcasts or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast, please put those in the comments section on YouTube.

Speaker 1 I do read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out.
It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols, an operating manual for the human body.

Speaker 1 This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience.

Speaker 1 And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control, protocols related to focus and motivation.

Speaker 1 And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. included.
The book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com.

Speaker 1 There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best.
Again, the book is called Protocols, an operating manual for the human body.

Speaker 1 And if you're not already following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media platforms. So that's Instagram, X, Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn.

Speaker 1 And on all those platforms, I discuss science and science-related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast.

Speaker 1 Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

Speaker 1 And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, the Neural Network newsletter is a zero-cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure.

Speaker 1 We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost.

Speaker 1 You simply go to hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.

Speaker 1 Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Twyla Tharp. And last but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.

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