The Cat Drug Black Market, Part III

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Hi, I'm Alex Goldman, and this is Hyperfixed. Each week on our show, listeners write in with their problems, big and small, and I try to solve them, typically over the course of a single episode.

But if you've been listening for the last month, then you already know we're doing things a bit differently right now.

Over the last two episodes, we have been telling the absolutely massive story of how an illegal drug called GS441524 came to save the life of a little one-eyed cat named Otto.

In the first episode, we explained how this life-saving cat drug came to be illegal, and then how a group of renegade cat lovers built a black market pipeline to get the same illegal life-saving drug into the hands of the people that need it.

In our second episode, we explained how this cat drug black market went the way of so many other black markets.

How in spite of so many good intentions and so much good work by so many good people, this group of renegade cat lovers found themselves waist deep in scandal, and how that scandal ended up tearing that group in half.

But the one thing we haven't yet explained is how just a few weeks after Otto completed his treatment regimen, this entire black market was rendered effectively obsolete.

As of right now, GS441524 is available in pharmacies across the country.

You can purchase it without fear of legal ramifications, and your vet can guide you through treatment without fear of losing their license. It's a whole new world for GS441524.

And today, for the final installment of the series, we're sitting down with one of the people who helped usher that new world into existence to tell you the story of how that came to be.

So here it is: the Cat Drug Black Market, Part 3, the Cat Drug White Market.

Hey, Nicole, thanks so much for giving us so much of your time to talk about this stuff. Yeah, no problem.
I love talking about FIP. So you've got like five hours for this, right?

This, again, is Nicole Jacques.

In our last episode, you heard the first part of her story about how she joined a Facebook group called the FIP Warriors, smelled something fishy, learned there was something fishy, and in the aftermath of that discovery, found herself getting excommunicated from the group.

It was a tale of drugs, deception, and drama. One that, in the words of another former admin, probably would have made a really great reality show.

But the reason we wanted to tell you that story is because it laid the groundwork for all of the really amazing stuff that happened next. So we're picking up right where we left off, in March of 2023.

That month, Nicole Jacques had just been punted from FIP Warriors, and she tells us nearly half of the admins and all of the moderators had chosen to leave with her and in her exile they had decided to start a new advocacy group one designed to operate under a new more egalitarian structure and guided by a new set of goals and really our goal was to one spread information about FIP treatment because you know there were still people who were their cat would get diagnosed and their vet would say like oh nothing you can do euthanize them so first you know make information available that there was uh there was treatment but two uh the way we put it was try to put ourselves out of a job which was we wanted to get treatment something that you could obtain legally under the guidance of a vet so that you didn't need to come to a facebook group like us

okay so i guess i'm curious about like why you thought that was possible Because my understanding of the situation at the time was essentially that this could not become legal without FDA approval, and it couldn't get FDA approval unless Gilead, the company holding the patent, decided to pursue it.

And they had explicitly said that they weren't going to do that. And like, that's the whole reason the black market emerged in the first place.

So what made you think that you could build a legal pathway to getting this drug?

So already, before the schism, I had been

thinking about this a lot because it seemed very strange to me, the position that we were in. By strange position, Nicole means this issue with FDA approval.

You see, long before Nicole started working with FIP warriors, she spent years volunteering with her local cat rescue.

And it wasn't just like feeding the bottle babies and cleaning up the litter boxes type volunteer work.

When Nicole was at the cat rescue, often what she was doing was assisting the veterinarian on duty and helping with overnight care for the cats that needed round-the-clock attention.

And during the course of all that medical assistance, she'd given a lot of cats, a lot of meds.

And while those meds were prescribed by the veterinarians and obtained through legal channels, for the most part, they were not FDA approved.

You know, all along, I've been sort of like, this is so weird. Like, why are we stuck like this?

When, you know, we need other prescription medications for cats that aren't coming from an FDA approved manufacturer it's very expensive it's millions and millions of dollars to get a drug approved for one species and we have all these species there's never going to be a drug for every species we need a drug for so we're already using an awful lot of the drugs that we normally use in in veterinary medicine off label And you could do treatment with your vet just like you would anything else.

And I was like, wait a minute, minute,

that seems weird.

Why can't we do this? If all these other non-FDA approved drugs were being legally prescribed, distributed, and administered via pharmacies, Nicole wanted to know, why couldn't they do that with GS?

And for years, the question had been festering in her mind. But once the group split, Nicole made it her mission to get the answer.

And when she turned to the pharmaceutical law books, she found what she was looking for. And it turned out to be a two-parter.

Part 1, the Animal Medicinal Drug Use Clarification Act.

So, about 30 years ago, the FDA realized they had a problem on their hands.

According to federal laws, it was illegal to use an FDA-approved drug for animals in any manner that differed in any way from the drug's approved label.

That meant that if you deviated from the dose, the duration, or the species that drug was meant to treat, you were in violation of the law.

And obviously, like, this was a huge problem because, as Nicole said, there weren't and aren't a lot of drugs that have received FDA approval for the treatment of animals, let alone each animal species specifically.

So, in 1994, a new law was written. the Animal Medicinal Drug Use Clarification Act.
And the reason it exists is that the FDA like realizes that, look, it's not realistic. We're not going to have

an FDA-approved drug for every animal, for every

possible disease that they could get. So they specifically have this guidance, which is, if there is not an FDA-approved drug available, you are allowed to compound it.
You guys,

they're allowed to compound it. Don't I sound very authoritative like I know what I'm talking talking about?

I mean, okay, I do know what I'm talking about now, but I definitely did not know what that meant when Nicole first mentioned it to me.

And since I bet I'm not alone in that, here is my little PSA on compounding.

So there are two types of pharmacies, compounding and non-compounding. Non-compounding pharmacies are the kind that most of us go to, like CVS or Walgreens.

And these pharmacies are essentially just dispensaries. They receive drugs from manufacturers, they dispense them to consumers, usually without changing the medication at all.

And that's where compounding pharmacies are different.

Instead of simply dispensing pre-made medications, compounding pharmacies either alter the drugs or work with their active ingredients to make new forms of those medications.

So let's say you have a horse that needs allergy medicine, or like a ferret that needs a treatment for the flu. These compounding pharmacies are where those medications are generally being made.

They turn the drug ingredients into doses of medication that are appropriate for your specific animal species and in a form that can be easily administered.

And according to this 1994 law, as long as everything that goes into those drugs is FDA approved and the compounding is done by a licensed pharmacist or veterinarian, those medications are totally legal.

And the other fascinating thing we learned about compounding pharmacies is that because they're generally tasked with changing the medication in some way or another, they are, for the most part, legally shielded from claims of patent infringement, which is just like very interesting to me.

So, what you're saying to me is as long as the drug is being mixed at an FDA-approved facility and you're getting the drugs from an FDA-approved manufacturer, these compounding pharmacies can just make the drug and the FDA will look the other way.

Like, that's how it works?

Pretty much. So, for it's, I mean, this is specifically to veterinary medicine, but yeah.

And actually, the thing is, is that technically speaking, the vast majority of the compounding that is done for veterinary medicine falls under this. Okay.

So this 1994 law opened the door to compounding off-label animal drugs that wouldn't exist otherwise.

And again, all they needed was to be made in an FDA-approved facility using FDA-approved ingredients. This was great.
This was wonderful. But eventually, the FDA realized that this law was not enough.

Because as you already know from listening to this series, there was a significant need for animal drugs that were made from ingredients that had yet to be approved by the FDA.

Which brings us to part two of our pharmaceutical law lesson, GFI 256.

So in April of 2022, about a year before Nicole sat down and really started looking for a way to push GS out of the black market, the FDA released a new guideline for the veterinary industry.

That's why it's called GFI, by the way, because it's a guidance for industry.

And you know, a lot of these guidelines are written in legalese, but this GFI seems to be saying, like, hey, you know, we know that there are situations out there where there's no FDA-approved treatment option.

and for which no FDA approved drug can be used as the source of active ingredients for compounding.

So,

in those cases, we acknowledge that it may be medically necessary to compound treatments from, quote, bulk drug substances, unquote.

And although those medications still won't technically be legal, because they still won't technically be approved, we are explicitly giving our permission to do this.

As long as they're being made by licensed pharmacists or vets, as previously established in the 1994 law, and the bulk drugs came from a manufacturer registered with the FDA.

So, here's Nicole in 2023, fully immersed in the world of pharmaceutical law, after years of operating in a black market that was filled with profiteering and unreliable meds.

After years of being told that it was the only way to get GS into the hands of people that needed it. And she's reading about GFI 256, and she's thinking, maybe things don't have to be this way.

Like, maybe I'm misunderstanding what I'm reading, but maybe this is how we dig ourselves out of this dark and unsavory hole we've been operating in.

And then I reached out to a contact in the FDA who was in their pharmacy enforcement division. And I'm like, look,

am I crazy? Or shouldn't we just be able to do this? And basically they looked at me and they're like, yeah, duh, that's why this is there. Wow.
This is not any different than anything else.

So this isn't even something you need to apply.

This is literally something where you just need to say, if someone gets on your case about it, you're just like, well, I'm doing this under the auspices of this particular carve-out.

You don't really need to go to anybody and be like, hey, I'm looking for approval here. They were basically like, you don't need to ask for anything from us.

I was like, what do we need to do to be approved for? And they're like, you don't need to be approved for this. You just, you do it.
You get a pharmacy to do it. So that's what Nicole did.

She put together a pitch. She picked a major compounding pharmacy and said to them, hey, will you compound this for me? And they were just like, yeah,

sure.

It's crazy that it was like, in the end,

so remarkably not complex, but also, I'm sure it must have been a ton of work.

It was. And it was also, it was also somewhat hilarious in the sense that,

so when I went to talk to one pharmacy, pretty large pharmacy, I mean, I literally came in with like a slide deck.

I thought I was going to have to convince them that this was okay to do, that there was a business case for doing it, that there would be support from the community for doing it.

But I mean, I really thought I actually had to tell them like that this would be an okay thing to do. And they were like, literally, it was like two slides in.
They're like, yeah,

we can do this. Obviously, this was a huge step forward, but there were still plenty of things that needed to be ironed out.

And while they were in the process of doing that, Nicole caught wind of a major development in the GS landscape.

Another American pharmacy, this one called Stokes, announced that they were going to begin selling compounded GS.

Apparently what had happened was that a pharmacy that was based in the UK and Australia reached out to them and said, hey, we've been compounding GS in our home countries and it's been going great.

Do you want to partner with us to compound this drug in the US? And Stokes was like, hell yeah, let's do it.

Hell yeah, brother. Hell yeah, brother.
Let's do it.

So when news reached Nicole that there was already one pharmaceutical option coming, it was time for celebration. This was like Christmas and New Year's and the 4th of July and my birthday.

This was the thing that

we had been working for. I didn't care how we got there.
I mean, I know talking to other people in the groups when I kind of broke the news, you know, they were like, they were crying.

So, it was just, it was just joy. It was just like, oh my God, we are there.

In June of 2024, just weeks after Otto completed his treatment regimen, Stokes Pharmacy began selling the oral form of GS441-524.

And as of today, it's also in at least 15 other pharmacies, including national ones like Mixlab and Chewy,

thanks in part, to the advocacy work of Nicole Jacques and her colleagues. It's still not technically legal, but as far as the FDA is concerned, it is officially and explicitly allowed.

And to make sure there's no confusion on this point, the agency published a statement saying,

The U.S.

Food and Drug Administration does not intend to enforce new animal drug approval requirements for products compounded from GS441524 when prescribed by a veterinarian for a specific cat patient for the treatment of feline infectious peritonitis.

specifically put out a letter saying,

this is an approved use of the drug. Oh, wow.
So like you guys had enough clout that they were like, all right, well, we need to let people know that this is, this is kosher.

They literally, they blessed it. They were like, this is exactly what you're supposed to do with GFI 256.
This is an allowed use.

They did quibble a little bit with, there was a lot of, like, people would say, like, oh, this is legal. Well, okay, so technically it's not legal it's allowed it's splitting legal hairs

but they're like yeah this is legit so this whole journey has been bonkers I mean for us as reporters certainly and I'm sure for you as a participant you know working first in the black market and now being this advocate for pharmaceutical GS

and I guess my last question is about how you feel about this sort of black market now well when you have no other alternative and it's a hundred percent chance of death versus not a hundred percent chance of death, it's yes, it's a miracle.

When you have something better,

you should use the better thing. It's kind of like when you think about it, like there's how many drugs have there been out there, like AIDS drugs, right?

There were a bunch of drugs that like AZT and stuff like that. in the early days of AIDS that seemed like a miracle at the time because there was nothing else and you were going to die.

But

now people will be like, oh my God, why would you take that? There's all these better drugs that have almost no side effects and control it really well. And, you know, like medicine evolves.

What seemed like a miracle yesterday is like Stone Age medicine tomorrow, you know? Yeah.

Thanks so much, Nicole. We really appreciate your time.

After the break, we circle up with Marlena, the HyperFix listener who first set us on this path, and we tackle all the remaining questions we didn't have time to answer.

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Welcome back to the show.

So after a few weeks of telling you guys we're doing things a little differently, I am now here to say that we are back to our old hyper-fixed ways.

Which is to say, now that we've spent three episodes trying to answer our listener Marlena's question, and at least a few additional questions she didn't even know she had, we circled back up with Marlena to get her thoughts.

I'm curious, like,

when you heard that this was going to be a three-part story, what you thought this story was going to be versus what it ended up being? I don't know. I don't know what I thought.

I did not expect it to be this dramatic of a,

I don't know, like, ring of Facebook moms. Like, I didn't expect it to be so much weird, petty drama.

And I had wondered if they were profiting off of it. I kind of assumed they were, but I didn't think it would be as much as it maybe was.

I'd like to think that usually we have a pretty definitive answer for our hyperfix guests. Like, yes, you can sit on public toilets.

And no, those green hex code license plates are not part of some conspiratorial cabal, sadly. But with this story, we knew even our best answers just begged more questions.
And Marlena had a few.

So I invited Sari Safer Sukenik, who is the lead reporter on the story, to join me in answering them.

So,

can you still get it illegally, or is it all now through compounding pharmacies?

Oh, no, there's still definitely an illegal market, and a lot of people get caught up in it, even though pharmacies now carry GS.

One of the struggles is that this information has been slow to get out. So, we've heard that even some vets will still refer people to FIP Warriors, either for drugs or for support.

And FIP Warriors is still referring people to black market meds. That's at least as of May of this year, which is the latest version of an FIP Warriors approved drug list that we were sent.

And on that list, most of the drugs are black market. Okay.
Though there are now a few compounding pharmacies on it as well. Wow.

Yeah. And we asked Robin, the founder of FIP Warriors, about why they still have so many black market meds on their list.

And she argued that there's really not that much of a difference between the black market and pharmacy drugs. If it's okay with you guys, I'm just going to play that part of the interview with Robin.

So it's an interesting gray area that the compounding treatment falls into, but it's definitely one that many people feel more comfortable with because there is

more of an a feeling of legitimacy since you can have your vet send the prescription in and the pharmacy will mail it to your house. It's a little less click and dagger that way.

But bear in mind, you know, the loophole means that the even the compounded meds through the pharmacies are not FDA regulated. So are they that different from the ones in the open market?

I mean, I think that's one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it is that when you're getting medication from a compounding pharmacy, a licensed pharmacist is mixing everything and putting it together, and your licensed vet can oversee the treatment.

So, it's of course a little different.

But I will say, I did speak to an ex-warrior who gave a pretty intriguing explanation to me as to why FIP Warriors is often quicker to recommend black market meds and might even deter people from the pharmacy meds.

And I know what you're thinking, Alex, but her reasoning was not money. Uh-huh.
All right, well, let's hear her reasoning.

Well, she wanted to stay anonymous, but I'll summarize her argument for you, which is that she doesn't feel comfortable advising parents using pharmaceutical drugs because that's illegal.

It's a criminal offense to provide medical advice without a medical license.

And even though it was obviously illegal to provide medical advice on an illegal substance with the black market meds, too, she said here she'd be going against a vet and interfering with a patient-doctor relationship.

So she said it's not that she personally would push people away from pharmaceuticals. It's just that she didn't feel comfortable helping with that sort of treatment.

She also said that all her experience in the tens of thousands of cases was with black market drugs. So she feels confident in her treatment protocol there.

And she suggested that she isn't necessarily sure that a vet who has just started being able to prescribe this treatment has the same type of experience. Okay, fine.
I kind of get that. Yeah.

Oh, and one last thing, just to go back to the question of black market meds, Marlena.

One reason that Robin told us that they still use them is that the majority of the compounding pharmacies are only offering GS in the oral form, and sometimes that's just not the right treatment route.

She said it's often better to start with injectables since they can be more effective at crossing the blood-brain barrier, and some cats can't tolerate the pills at first.

Though, you know, that argument is obviously disputed in other circles. So I kind of believe what they're saying about needing the injection at first.

Because he also started on injections and then later went to pills. Oh,

so Otto was like using injectables when he was very sick. And then his admin switched him to pills once he got the all clear.
Yeah. Oh, interesting.

Well, yeah, Marlena, that was an extremely long-winded way of saying, yes, there are still black market meds being used. What other questions do you have for us?

Are they still making money off of it? It seems weird that they would want to stay in the black market business if there's no longer a profit. Oh, yeah.
I was waiting for this question.

So there are some ex-warriors who say there's definitely money being made still.

One former admin who left Warriors about a year ago told us that when she left, she was still making commissions off selling the drugs. Wow.

I mean, even when we talked to Robin in May of this year, she didn't say that no one was making commissions anymore.

She said, she said people making commissions are down to barely any at all, and that they're primarily 100% volunteer. So, you know, like not 100%.

Yeah, but here's where things have potentially changed.

One ex-warrior who left just a few weeks ago, actually, she told us that the Warriors had moved to a different type of profit structure, more like a pay-for-play type of model, where in order to get on the Warriors list of approved meds, there had to be some sort of financial arrangement.

She said they're hidden because they're sort of like donations to the group, group, but then you get prime real estate on the brand list. Dude, that is really sketchy.

Yeah, she wasn't the only one that said that either. No, Robin denied the group is making any money or was being paid by any brands.

And it was kind of hard to get in touch with anyone else that's still involved in FIP Warriors.

The ex-warrior, who I mentioned that left a few weeks ago, also told us that the group is kind of a shell of itself now.

As you know, we spoke to numerous admins that left because they eventually got fed up with the financial incentives or felt that some of the practices were unethical.

And now, apparently, most of the admins are totally new and there are much fewer of them.

It seems like all the money stuff sort of caught up to the group and they're struggling to survive in this new world where you can access the meds and pharmacies. Yeah.

And my only other question was: did anyone else ever get investigated for selling them or is it just the one woman who got raided? Just the one woman. Wow.
I know. I know.

They were making an example out of her. Yeah.
And it sounded like the sheer volume at which she was doing it was exceptional. Yeah.

Okay, Marlena, now one question for you. How is Otto doing these days? He's good.
He's good.

For a while, it felt like he had like a bit of a plague upon him because it was just like one thing after another.

It was like the eye and then the FIP and then he got this weird rash, I think, from the injections. And now he still has some like bald spots from that.
And so it was like one thing after another.

And I was like, this cat's just, something's going to get him eventually. But he seems to be good now.
He's also calmed down from when he was a kitten.

So he's still destroying stuff, but not on the daily basis, which is a little bit nicer.

Marlene, I think we're good to go. Thank you so much.
Thank you for being so available through all of this reporting. I know I've texted you a lot and made you look in your DMs many, many times.

It's been, yeah, way more than I was expecting. Yeah, us too.

All right, well, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you guys.

Alex, you still there? Yeah, what's up?

Okay, so I'm really glad we got to answer all of Marlena's questions, but we also did get a couple questions from some other hyperfix listeners on our Discord that I think we should address.

All right, let's do it. Okay, here's our first caller.

Hi, rather be squidding from Discord here.

I've been fascinated by the cat drug black market episodes you've been putting out, but I have noticed that the black market here has been painted in a pretty positive and helpful light, which, you know, obviously because it's helping out these cats, but presumably there is a reason why prescription drugs need a doctor or a veterinarian to prescribe them.

So, you know, I'm wondering, you know, did this black market for this cat drug have any public health risks?

You know, I guess, you know, ultimately I'm wondering, are there any downsides to this black market that haven't been addressed in these episodes?

Okay, thanks for the question.

So

the first thing that comes to mind is the fact that there were definitely instances where people got bad drugs. And we talked about one of those in the first episode.

It was really early on in the FIP Warrior history. Some of the cats started backsliding and not getting better from the meds.

And the group eventually found out that they had some bad meds in the mix from one company and eventually pulled the cats off of it. And that happened again throughout Warriors history.

It wasn't just isolated to that moment. In fact, on the next bonus feed, you'll hear from a pet parent whose cat got bad drugs in 2022.

And although the cat did live, he suffered long-term complications. And it is a pretty heartbreaking story.
Alex, you know what else this reminds me of?

It's something that Nicole Jacques said to us in our first interview with her.

It's less about the actual health risks to cats, but a more general public health risk when the black market was the only option.

Aside from like the

efficacy of the treatment,

you know, any side effects or, you know, stuff like that, the more medical aspect, is also just how is this phenomenon of people getting treatment from the black market and these sort of like

Facebook groups that were sort of taking the place of vets in a lot of ways. How was that affecting people's like their relationship with veterinary medicine, their relationship with vet and vets?

Great question.

Because you're in this situation where the only life-saving drug you can get for your cat needs to be procured on the black market with questionable dosage information.

Like you're still potentially endangering your pet. Yes.
So like, does this set people up for, you know, great things work this time.

So they're going to be more likely to engage in this behavior later where maybe it won't turn out quite so well.

Okay, last question from HyperFix listener Ellie Roberts.

Hi, Emma, and Sari, and Joe, and Amore, and Tony, and Maliks. My question has to do with time.

I'm really curious, kind of, at which point you decided this was a multi-part story, how many hours of interviews you did for this one,

and yeah, just kind of how the story shaped itself into,

you know, your first three-part episode. Thanks.
Love you guys. Glurp it.
Bye.

Sari, do you want to take this one? Sure.

Well, actually, can I phone a friend?

Yes, you can, but who are you hoping to phone?

Hyperfix producer and editor, Emma Cortland, of course.

Emma? Oh, hold on. god.

Yeah. Okay.
So we decided, I think, that this was going to be a two-part episode. And actually, I think that we announced that at some point, that this was going to be a two-part episode.

So we've decided that during the outline phase. And then as we were writing episode two,

I think we realized, oh, there's just too much information here. We have to make it three episodes.
Technically, I feel like this was two and a half episodes.

But yeah, I mean, so so ultimately, it's like, there were just so many characters. There was so much information.
I still don't know if we made the right call, but here we are. We're at the end.

And I hope to never talk about cats again. I mean, I frankly think it could have been a 10-part episode with how much information we had and how many characters there were.

But for the sake of our time and everyone else's time, I think we did. probably make the right choice.

And I do want to answer Ellie's other question, which was how many hours of interviews do you think we did? I mean, it was was easily over 20 hours.

I think that we spoke to, I know that we, because I counted, I know that we spoke to a dozen people and many of them we spoke to multiple times.

And it's not even counting, that's just like actual verbal communication. And this is not counting the emails that went back and forth, the text messages, the exchange of pet pictures.

This was our biggest reporting project yet, and we didn't even do it on purpose.

So true. Also, I don't know about you, Emma, but by the end, I did feel like we were talking to like celebrities.

I feel like once we got deeper into the reporting, we realized how small this world is and how despite all their differences and the drama that unfolded between them, these people are kind of legends in the world of FIP.

I mean, we spoke to the guy that figured out that GS was the cure for FIP. We spoke to the OG cat ladies that were saving kittens from this deadly disease when even the vets of the world couldn't.

And many of them, even after they left FIP Warriors, even if they're not part of any other group, they continue to recommend treatment and advise pet parents because they really just have so much experience treating FIP at this point, more so than pretty much anyone else.

Let's do a dog story next, or

wouldn't you like that? I know, I really would. I'm done with your cats.

Okay, guys, I think that's it. Is it it? Awesome.
I think it's it. Alex, what do you think? I'm done.
I'm all set.

All right, guys.

Bye. Bye.
Bye.

This episode of Hyperfixed was produced and edited by Emma Cortland, Amori Yates, and Sari Safer Sukenik. It was hosted by me, Alex Goldman.
The music is by the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder and me.

The show is engineered by Tony Williams. A huge thanks to our fact checker, Naomi Barr, who we couldn't have done this story without.
And a special thanks to Sarah Ellis for the cover art.

You can get bonus episodes, join our Discord, and more at hyperfixpod.com slash join. Next week on the Premium feed, we have our final cat story.
For now, anyway.

We are talking to a pet parent who went through the whole FIP Warriors GS experience.

HyperFixed is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, creator-owned, listener-supported podcasts. Discover audio with vision at radiotopia.ff.

Thanks so much for listening.

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