Presenting: Science Vs. - Lucid Dreaming: The Bonkers World Inside Our Minds

Hey, it's Robin from PRX.

There's a really special new show that I think you'd really enjoy.

It's called The Selects Podcast, and it's a twice-monthly show that brings you sonic gems from the depths of web archives, radio streams, and early podcasts.

Their goal is to preserve work, some of the best audio ever made, from getting lost to defunct podcast feeds, defunded programs, and just time.

Listening helps give these works a new life.

A lot of the pieces were recommended by some of the most talented audio creators today as having been the piece that inspired them to get into audio.

So you know they're going to be pretty consistently excellent.

Check out the Selects podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

Please listen closely.

If it ain't got those hands, man, it's not.

You don't have to be gay to listen.

If it ain't got that stretch, if it ain't got those eyes.

This morning for breakfast, I had a toasted everything bagel with eggs and cheese and a cup of tea.

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Sutter Health.

From life-changing transplants to high blood pressure care, Sutter's team of doctors, surgeons, and nurses never miss a beat.

And with cardiac specialty centers located in the community, patients can find personalized heart care that's close to home.

Learn more at Sutterhealth.org.

This show is supported by Odoo.

When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing.

Odoo solves this.

It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales.

Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way.

You can save money without missing out on the features you need.

Check out Odoo at odoo.com.

That's odoo.com.

Hey, everybody.

This is a special episode of HyperFix because it's not actually an episode of HyperFixed.

My friend, Wendy Zuckerman, she is the host of a podcast called Science Versus, and we are going to be playing you an episode of the show.

And Wendy is actually here with me, not in the studio, because she lives in Australia.

And I live in the United States, so she is about as far from the studio, being my basement, as she can be.

But hi, Wendy, how are you doing?

Hi.

I love that you said she's in Australia as if it was Mars.

Guys, guys, can you believe this?

I have only recently learned about the volume of deadly animals in Australia, and I have always wanted to visit.

It sounds so amazing, and I'm now very scared.

The spider thing, it's like the spiders are too big.

I'll be surprised.

No, no.

I mean, you guys have snakes in America.

You have dangerous political leaders.

I mean, I really feel like Australia is safer at this point.

So you probably know about this as a science person, but maybe not.

There is an invasive species, but it's like a harmless invasive species of spider called a Joro spider that has been introduced in the United States, and it is slowly making its way northward.

And it's about, they average about two and a half inches.

And when they get here, I'm fucking out of here.

I don't care where I'm going.

I'm going to an island.

I mean, I have such a soft spot for any animal that has been able to survive this concrete, terrible landscape that we've created for them.

A pigeon, we have, just any animal that's like, okay, I can deal with this.

What am I?

Am I on a ship right now?

All right, I guess I'll survive.

Oh, I'm now in Ohio.

Yeah, I can handle that.

I mean, it's amazing.

I'm like, go get them.

Go get them, spider.

You live your best life.

Apparently, they also like are totally chill in cities, and we should be expecting them to just like make huge cobwebs in the middle of Manhattan.

And I'm just like, this sounds too much like a horror movie.

I can't handle it.

I've got to go somewhere.

It's the Arctic, the Arctic so-called for me.

That's the only movie.

That's

the only place they haven't reached just yet.

Just yet.

Spoken like a real science person.

Get out of here with that crap.

Speaking of science, can you tell us a little bit about your show?

Yeah, yeah.

So the show is called Science Versus.

And so what we do on the show is we take ideas that are in the zeitgeist, whether it's about a brand new diet, how much protein you need to eat, what's going on in your mind as you're dreaming.

Is the pill, the contraceptive pill, dangerous?

Just did an episode about that because there's lots of new fears around what the pill is doing to our bodies and our brains.

So we just take these ideas that are rolling around the internet and then we kind of interrogate them with this ridiculous amount of scientific research.

And we try and put a little bit of humor to it so you don't realize how much research we've done and we just give you the facts.

Yeah, it's a sugar pill of science.

They're like giving you like a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down.

Exactly, exactly.

And one of of the things that I like about the fact that it is so zeitgeisty is like every time I have a real question, I feel like within six months, it is a science versus episode.

Oh, that's great.

That's great.

I mean, I really, the show having gone for so long, I did not think it was going to survive this long.

I mean, when we first met Alex and I was thinking of, well, what kind of episodes we got?

We got climate change, because back then people were still wondering, is that real?

We got a couple episodes on vaccines.

Surely

we'll tickle all off.

But in fact, the internet over the last 10 years has just been minting more and more mythology, garbage, pseudoscience than ever before.

And so, and unfortunately or fortunately, I think this show is going to be running for quite some time.

So we are going to be running an episode of your show on our feed today, which is the Lucid Dreaming episode.

Can you tell me a little bit about this episode?

Like, what was the question you were trying to answer?

With lucid dreaming, I mean, it's funny.

It's a topic that either fascinates people or,

Alex, perhaps you have this reaction.

I don't want to hear about your dreams.

I don't want to hear about your lucid dreams.

Where do you fit on the spectrum of fascination with lucid dreaming?

No, the idea of lucid dreaming is really fascinating to me.

Like, I would love to be able to do it.

Yeah, I think it's, it's...

Very fascinating.

The science behind it is super interesting.

For those who don't know, a lucid dream is a dream that you can sort of control certain elements of it, in some cases, all of the elements of it.

And scientists really since the 70s have been wondering if we can harness this to understand ourselves better, to understand

dreaming better, consciousness better.

And it's kind of this strange vessel to just understand the human mind because it's in such a weird state.

You're asleep, but you can control things and you can only control certain things.

So something we don't really talk about too deeply in the episode is when I would speak to all these people who would have lucid dreams and you can read some academic papers about it.

Some people would have these lucid dreams where they would find themselves in this really fun environment.

The Eiffel Tower is right there.

There is a beautiful garden.

And then they would talk to someone, but they couldn't control the person they were talking to.

And the person would do certain weird things.

And so from a scientific perspective, that's really interesting.

Why can you control some things and not other things?

Because ultimately, it is all your brain.

There's nothing, there's nothing else there.

It's all you.

And so why can you control certain things?

What is happening in the brain of a lucid dreamer?

We just sort of had all of these questions.

And in today's political climate, it just felt like such a beautiful space to live in for a moment, just in our dreams rather than in reality.

I feel like I've had like moments once or twice in my life where I've realized like, oh, I'm dreaming.

I wonder if I can control something.

And then woken up before I've had the chance.

I feel like that was just me regaining consciousness.

Yes.

It's not the same as being able to actually control my dreams.

It is classified as a lucid dream, but it's not the fun stuff, right?

It's step one.

It's sort of step one, as you'll, as listeners will hear about how to get, because that was, oh, I don't want to spoil all that, but that is, that was exactly me.

I have had a few moments like that, and then I'll wake up or go back to sleep.

But I kind of wanted to see if I could do it for real, for in the fun, fun controlling sense.

Awesome.

Well, I am excited to listen to this, as I have not yet.

Full disclosure.

Can you tell people how they can find you and anything else they should know about the show?

Yes, to find us, you can just search for Science Versus, which is Science VS on any podcast platform or on Spotify, Apple,

and come and say hello.

We're on all the social media stuff.

Give us an idea if you've heard some nonsense or maybe not nonsense on the internet and you want us to fact check it, let us know.

Awesome.

All right.

Thank you so much.

And for everybody listening, please enjoy the lucid dreaming episode of Science Versus.

Whoa, this is incredible.

And I like flew around in like big loop-de-loops.

I'm up high.

I'm looking down at the trees.

I'm feeling the wind in my hair and just totally going for it.

I felt like I'd unlocked something like super magical.

And I really did have the sensation.

I was like, this feels to me like what it would feel like to be flying in the sky.

Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and you're listening to Science Versus.

Today on the show, we're pitting facts against flying as we swoop into the world of lucid dreaming.

There are people that have a superpower where they know that they're dreaming and sometimes can even control what happens next.

And in their dreams, people all over the world are saying, okay, great, let's fly.

And that's what I did.

I was just flying up and down the staircase.

I found myself flying through an beautiful landscape, I guess, similar to New Zealand.

And the insanely almost magical thing about lucid dreaming is that people who do this will tell you that it feels real.

It's not like closing your eyes and imagining that you're flying or doing whatever.

You're really there.

It feels so real.

You're like, how is this possible?

It feels so real.

And like you can hear, you can smell, you can even taste.

You know, I've had lucid dreams where I've just gone to a banquet and just tried all the different foods on the table.

I could also have superpowers and go on epic missions into outer space and it was just this like playground in your own mind.

A playground to be whoever you want to be.

And for some folks this isn't just a bit of fun.

They're also trying to use lucid dreaming to improve their mental health, overcome fears and to understand themselves better.

That's how my friend Archer used lucid dreaming.

He's the guy going,

flying down the staircase.

Archer is a trans man.

He wasn't born with a penis.

And for years now, he'd wished that he had one.

So in a lucid dream, I decided to summon Zapenis.

And then the penis appeared.

I made one in a dream.

How did it feel?

A bit underwhelming.

So I tried it out in a dream.

I used it in a sexy way.

And it was like, this is fine, but it wasn't amazing.

You know, not this great thing that I needed to complete my body and then I would be a happy, healthy guy out in the world.

How big was this for you?

How big was this?

How big was the moment?

Arch.

That was one part of a healing process for me.

And now I'm in a place where,

actually, now I don't really want a penis anymore.

That's just for me.

Obviously, it's really important for some people.

Have you since practiced lucid dreaming for any other kind of sexy dreams?

Yeah.

I mean, I'm only human.

This is a magical power you have.

So today on the show, we are going to teach you how to lucid dream.

That's right.

Scientists have studied the best way to get this superpower, and we will reveal their peer-reviewed secrets.

We'll also explore how researchers are trying to harness the strange powers of lucid dreaming to help people through trauma and depression and to crack these huge scientific mysteries, like what is consciousness and what exactly goes on in all of our heads when we're asleep.

When it comes to lucid dreaming, there's a lot of let's fly,

and then there's science.

Science versus lucid dreaming is coming up just after the break.

Welcome back.

Today we are flying into the dream world.

Or at least we're trying to.

And if we want to channel lucid dreaming to improve our lives, the first step is to learn how to do this.

Because for many of us, it doesn't come easy.

I mean, studies find that around half of us will have had at least one lucid dream in our lifetime, but not all lucid dreams are created equal.

For me, the best I've gotten is that I'll realize I'm dreaming for a moment, and then I either wake up or go back to regular sleep.

And my lackluster lucid experience is pretty common.

One study reckoned that only around a third of people who lucid dream can manipulate what they're doing in their dreams.

So how can we up our game and learn how to become gods in the dream world?

For this, we need Dr.

Denham Adventureheart, a psychologist in Brisbane, Australia.

Denham lives with sciatica, which can cause this nasty pain throughout his body.

And several years ago, things got really bad.

When it was at its worst, it was so limiting that it was, you know, it was very difficult and painful to even take the bins out at night.

There were some days when he could barely get out of bed.

Well, unless he was lucid dreaming.

Every now and then, Denham would find himself in a lucid dream.

And there,

he could escape his illness.

I could do anything.

You know, I could, not only could I get up and run and, you know, explore and go to new worlds and whatever my imagination could conjure, it actually really helped my quality of life because it gave me something to be excited about.

The problem was that Denim couldn't play in this playground very often.

He'd go to sleep and night after night, no running, no new worlds.

And he'd wake up still stuck in bed, in pain.

So Denim decides that he's going to train himself to get better at lucid dreaming.

And he gets really into this thing called reality testing or reality checks.

And these are huge in the lucid dreaming world.

I mean, just ask Christopher Nolan about it.

It was an inception.

So to understand how this could work, it's helpful to know that often people will spontaneously have a lucid dream because they'll be stuck in the middle of a dream and something really weird will happen that makes them think, what, this has to be a dream.

And voila, they're lucid.

And so reality testing is all about trying to hack that process.

So here's what Denham would do.

While he was awake, he'd close his mouth tightly and then try to inhale through his mouth.

Wait, I'm going to try it.

So you've got your mouth closed.

Yeah, and then you try to inhale with your lips closed.

And it doesn't work, right?

If you think you're doing this, you're actually breathing through your nose.

So the fact that you can't do it tells you that this is not a dream.

You are awake and listening to this podcast.

But Denham had read read that in dreams, you can breathe through a closed mouth.

And that was true for him.

It almost always will feel different.

You can feel this sense of closed lips, but at the same time, you can feel the air just entering your lungs and breathing in through your mouth at the same time.

Really?

Yeah, it's really bizarre.

Another super popular reality test is trying to poke your finger straight through your palm.

Obviously, while you're awake, it doesn't work.

But in the dream world, people say that your finger does go through your palm.

And so the idea here is that you will do these reality checks tons of times throughout the day.

And because most dreams are reflections of the stuff that we're doing throughout our day, you hope that then in a dream, you will also do a reality test.

And when you feel that air moving through your closed mouth, or you see your finger slip through your palm, then you'll realize this is a dream and you'll be lucid.

And so it's almost like trying to prime yourself to accidentally discover that you're dreaming.

You realize, ah, I'm in a dream.

That's the moment of lucidity.

So Denham is sick at home and he's doing these reality tests a lot.

Oh, geez, I went pretty overboard with it.

I probably was doing it hundreds of times a day at some of those periods.

But it was strange because he wasn't having that many lucid dreams.

And so was it frustrating?

Super frustrating.

I want, I know how amazing these experiences are and I know that I can access them, but they're just not coming as often as I would like.

So it was incredibly frustrating.

So Denham starts thinking, what's going on here?

Is it just me?

And being a scientist, he decides to study it.

He sets up an experiment recruiting more than 350 people from all around the world, making this the largest study I could find on inducing lucid dreams.

To get a baseline for seven days, everyone would record how many dreams they were having and how many of those were lucid.

Then, Denham puts everyone into different groups.

Some are told to practice reality testing.

They do it for seven days.

And guess what?

Reality testing didn't seem to really make that much of a difference.

That's very interesting because even then I have spoken to quite a lot of lucid dreaming academics and asked them all, how should I do this?

And they've all said you should try reality testing.

Like it's so embedded in the zeitgeist around lucid dreaming.

And yet your study found it actually didn't work.

Oh, it was very surprising because like you said, this is like the common wisdom is do reality testing like that.

And the more the better.

And it's not even like doing it a hundred times was better than 10.

It just, it didn't actually seem to matter that much.

And so it kind of goes against the grain of what most people will tell you.

Other smaller studies have found this too.

On average, we can't see a statistical link between reality testing and having a lucid dream.

And one reason for this could be because reality tests can fail in that even in your dream, you still can't put your finger through your palm which makes perfect sense we know that dreams are super subjective unlike what you might read on a lucid dreaming reddit post there's no physics or biology in the dream world that means your hands are made of putty

but in denim's study he was testing other lucid dreaming techniques as well and he did find something that worked It's called mnemonic induction of lucid dreams.

And in Denham's study, on average, about one in six times that people tried this method they had a lucid dream one in six wow that's a pretty good rate it's a very good rate here's what you've got to do you set your alarm clock yeah so it goes off at about five hours after you've gone to sleep that's that's rubbish five hours

Yeah, look, it's a bit of a necessary evil, unfortunately.

You're waking up at around 4 or 5 a.m.

because you're trying to catch yourself in REM sleep, which is where most of us have our lucid dreams.

Okay, so once you wake up,

imagine yourself being back in a dream, ideally the one you were just in.

Imagine yourself walking around noticing something like a pink elephant or something strange.

So you're trying to remember the dream that you were just in.

You're visualizing yourself being back there.

And what you're doing is trying to notice something unusual that might make you realize, hey, I'm dreaming.

And as you're awake, repeat this mantra.

Next time I'm dreaming, I want to remember that I'm dreaming.

You keep doing it until you really are feeling into that intention.

The next time I'm dreaming, I want to remember that I'm dreaming.

Like that, that strength of intention's got to be strong.

Once that's set, then you just go back to sleep as normal.

In Denham's study, people were roughly three times more likely to have a lucid dream after doing this compared to that week where they weren't doing anything special.

And other studies have found that this technique works as well.

As a little tip, if you can go back to sleep quickly within five minutes after doing all the mantra stuff, you up your chance of having a lucid dream even more.

Plus, the people in Denham's study who had never really tried lucid dreaming before had a similar success rate to those who were more experienced.

So it shows that even beginners can learn this quite quickly.

Do you think that everyone can have a lucid dream?

Like if they really put their mind to it, do you think we're all capable of this?

I don't know for sure, but if I had to hazard a guess, I would say there probably are some people that

could spend a lot of time on this and still not be out of lucid dream.

But I would say for most people, it's a learnable skill.

A learnable skill, you say?

Next time I'm dreaming, I will remember remember I'm dreaming next time I'm dreaming I will remember I'm dreaming next time I'm dreaming

I will remember I will remember I'm dreaming I'm dreaming

in Denham's research people who were far from lucid dreaming ninjas could learn this in just one week so my editor Blythe Terrell senior producer Rose Ribbler and I we wanted to fly

actually for rose she had a very particular dream that she wanted to conjure up.

You know what?

Sometimes to relax, I imagine that I've become very, very small and I'm like the height of a blade of grass.

And I get to walk around and sit on a mushroom like a toadstool and use a dandelion as a umbrella and that kind of thing.

So it'd be kind of fun if I could do that in my

dream.

And then it would be really vivid and would be more real than just my awake imagination.

Oh, that's so cute, Rose.

So I explained how we were going to do this that we'd wake up five hours after going to sleep we would try to remember the dream we were just in we'd think about all the weird stuff that obviously makes it a dream and then we'd say the mantra it should take five to ten minutes five to ten at four in the morning or whatever yeah man you guys have your work cut out for you i'm glad i can already do this so you are just sort of brad confirmed yeah

Astute ears listening to this podcast might notice that Blythe was one of the voices you heard at the start of the show.

She was flying in a lucid dream doing those big loop-de-loops.

But Blythe can't do this very often.

So she wants to see if she can supercharge her superpower.

And Rose and I are going to find out if we can control things in our dreams for the very first time.

I'm excited.

I'm pumped.

How are you feeling, Wendy?

I am not optimistic at all, in fact.

For me, for me.

But I wish I, but I'm really trying to have a positive attitude.

All right.

Meet back in a week.

Give ourselves awake.

Okay.

Okay, this is day one of the lucid dreaming experiment.

Okay, I just woke up.

Um,

I don't remember what my dream is

was.

Okay, um, but

so I'll try to remember a different

dream.

I like can't remember any dreams.

Um, I actually woke up during a dream where I was covered in ticks,

like making these huge abscesses on my legs.

That's really gross.

Okay, the next time I dream,

I will remember I'm dreaming.

Did try, did the mantra, but no outcome.

Well, spoiler alert, it didn't work.

I did not lose the dream.

Um, day, whatever.

It didn't work.

i didn't work uh another flop today

yeah i don't know that sucks it's not for me

so it's not going great

but i'm not giving up i'm too curious i want to know what it feels like to walk around inside my own mind

And soon I start looking around online for things to help me.

There's this drug that people talk about called galantamine.

It sounds like something out of Lord of the Rings, but we think it keeps you in REM for longer than normal.

And research has actually found that it can up your chance of having a lucid dream.

But it's only really been studied by getting people to take the drug when they wake up at stupid o'clock anyway, while they're doing the technique that we're already doing.

Plus, the drug has some side effects.

So forget it.

There are also masks that you can get for sometimes thousands thousands of dollars, claiming that they're lights or sounds can help you, quote, unlock the world of lucidity where everything is possible, end quote.

And the idea behind some of these masks is actually really interesting because there is research that shows that if you, for example, play someone a particular sound, like three beeps, while they're awake and doing a set of instructions about becoming lucid when they're dreaming, and then you play that same sound when they're asleep.

It could cue you to become lucid in that moment.

But when it comes to these masks that you can buy online, very few have actually been tested or shown to work.

After the break, we go deep inside the brain to find out how people can control things in their dreams.

This episode of Hyperfixed is brought to you by Mood.

Cannabis!

Everyone's talking about it.

Hey, I've heard of a can of soda, but a can of this?

I'm only joking.

Listen, I'm getting reports from all my friends that this stuff is great.

If only there was a company that thought cannabis should be accessible, affordable, convenient, and transparent.

Oh, wait, there is.

It's called Mood.

Mood ships federally legal THC right to your door.

And they found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to target nearly every mood and health concern you can think of.

I'm guessing that's why the company is called Mood.

I'm talking about mood.com's incredible line of functional gummies.

And you can get 20% off your first order at mood.com with promo code HyperFixed.

Forget one-size-fits-all supplements that only get you high.

Moods functional gummies get you absolutely rocked off your ass.

I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

Moods gummies are optimized to kick in in as little as 15 minutes to take you to the mood you're looking for.

Whether that's mind magic gummies for deep work and creativity, PMS support to ease cramps and balance mood swings, or they're sexual euphoria gummies to help you feel ready for action and turn every touch into a full body experience.

What do you think of that voice?

It's just a thing I'm working on, I guess.

Best of all, not only is every mood product backed by a hundred-day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with code HyperFixed.

So head to mood.com, find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for, and let mood help you discover your perfect mood.

And don't forget to use the promo code HyperFixed when you check out to save 20% off your first order.

Mood, get rocked off your ass.

I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

Yep.

Divorce isn't that big of a deal.

You don't have kids.

Or money.

The funniest film of the year is finally here.

Dakota Johnson and Adria Arjona star in Splitsville, an unromantic comedy.

I don't want to get up and force.

No one does.

She does.

Critics are praising the sexy, absurd, and hilarious take on modern marriage and relationships as an outrageous instant classic.

We need to find a way to restore the balance.

And you had sex with my wife, so maybe I don't know.

No, what is wrong with you?

Splitsville, rated R.

Now playing.

Welcome back today on the show, Lucid Dreaming.

And now, let's find out what is happening in our brains as we go on these grand adventures and have a lucid dream.

So, if you want to know what's going on in someone's brain as they're lucid,

you first have to know the moment that that person who is fast asleep has become lucid.

But they're asleep, right?

They can't tell you.

Well,

decades ago, researchers worked out a kind of bodker's way to do this.

And I talked about it with Dr.

Bashak Turka, a cognitive neuroscientist at Paris Cité University.

So she told me that lucid dreamers will come into a lab.

Tell them to sleep.

And if they are having a dream that they're aware of, a lucid dream, they can send us a signal.

And the bat signal that researchers chose is that the lucid dreamers would move their eyes all the way to the left and then all the way to the right.

And they do that a couple of times.

And all the while they'd have sensors on their face and head to detect eye muscle movements and to make sure that they were sleeping.

And with this idea, which is for me, it's incredible, they actually managed to show that sleeping people were actually sending the eye signals to tell I'm having a lucid dream.

With this bat signal, scientists can now probe what's what's going on in someone's brain while they're lucid.

Which brings us to the story of Bashak and a lucid dreamer who we'll call AC.

AC has narcolepsy, which is a sleep disorder where you fall asleep randomly throughout the day.

And for reasons we don't fully understand, it's linked with lucid dreaming.

So this illness comes with a superpower.

You also become a great lucid dreamer.

So he was having a lot of lucid dreams and he would tell us about his adventures in the night.

I basically spend like one or two hours of my day lucid dreaming.

This is AC.

So for me, it's like having a second life.

So, and I don't usually talk about it because nobody wants to hear about it.

Because no one wants to hear about your dream.

AC had been involved in some lucid dreaming experiments where he had to do the bat signal to indicate he was lucid.

But he wanted to to boldly take lucid dreaming science where no one had gone before.

And Bashak and her colleague were intrigued.

So we thought, okay, that's great.

So we can maybe do a little experiment on you.

It was in the afternoon.

There was a room free.

And it was like, okay, let's try something.

The plan was simple.

Bashak and her colleague would ask him yes-no questions while he was fast asleep, but lucid.

And he would try to answer them, smiling three times for yes and frowning three times for no.

And this is something that for years, science had thought was kind of impossible.

I mean, sometimes you might ask a partner in the middle of the night, hey, did you take the trash out?

And they kind of respond.

So they answer and they mumble.

They're like,

and sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't.

We call them microarousals.

So your brain kind of wakes up for a second.

So if you look at their brain activity, you can see that they're not asleep in that moment.

You might have woken them up.

We also know that in some of the earlier stages of sleep, you are aware of the awake world.

But once you are conked out, dead to the world in deep sleep or REM,

you're not supposed to answer questions.

So, Bashak and her colleague put sensors all around AC's head and face to measure whether he's asleep and what his mouth muscles are doing.

Bashak tells AC,

99,

or whatever scientists say to each other.

And AC lays on the lab bed and goes to sleep.

But I think we were still a bit naive about, we're like, yeah, let's try, but we didn't really, like, we were like, it might work, but it might not work.

AC is in deep sleep, and they could clearly see it on the senses.

But in his dream, he was in an epic battle.

I was fighting goblins with Utah Sword.

Yeah.

He becomes lucid and signals to Bashak using the bat signal.

And then we asked him, for example, some questions.

And here's where it gets weird.

AC remembers hearing those questions from within the dream.

It's like a voice from above.

You know, when you're in the station and there's an announcement, but you don't know where it comes from, just like that.

Bashak asks, Do you like chocolate?

Do you like chocolate?

And so I smiled three times.

Yeah, I like chocolate.

And when Bashak sees the smile, she's not sure it's real.

Is he really sleeping?

And we were checking the brain activity.

He is.

It's like, but he's responding, right?

She's like, yeah, yeah, he's responding.

She asks more questions.

Do you watch football?

Do you speak Spanish?

And actually,

I was lucid enough to think about, okay, I can say a couple of words, but does that mean that I'm speaking Spanish?

No, that doesn't make sense.

Otherwise, I'm going to say no.

And you're fighting goblins at the same time.

Yeah, that's quite epic.

And while AC is having a fine time, Bashak and her colleague were starting to freak out.

We were like, do you see what I'm seeing?

And she was like, Yes.

So it was crazy because we were communicating with someone who was dreaming and we were alone in this room and super excited.

And you know, like half yelling with excitement and half shocked.

I think it was one of the scientifically the best moments of my life, I would say, when I saw that.

No, I felt like we discovered a new element.

You know, it felt so like we were so, I think I smiled for a week and non-stop.

I was so happy.

And as Bashak is smiling about this discovery in France, other researchers in the US, Germany, and the Netherlands are having similar experiences.

In one lab, researchers even asked a lucid dreamer, what's eight minus six?

And while he was asleep and lucid, he responded, using the bat signal to indicate two.

After Bashak saw this, she studied it in more lucid dreamers, who, by the way, all had narcolepsy.

And she switched up the experiment a little bit.

So, this time, while they were asleep, they'd hear all of these fake words like titza, and then real words like pizza.

And they had to smile three times for a real word, and frown three times for a fake word.

Now, sometimes they didn't respond at all, but a bunch of times they did, and they answered correctly.

But then, Bashak noticed something weird.

At times, they would answer the question accurately, smile or frown,

while they weren't having a lucid dream.

So we got a bit curious, confused, and excited at the same time.

So then she recruits 22 folks who couldn't lucid dream and also didn't have narcolepsy, and she repeats the experiment.

It's crazy, but they were also able to do the task.

So they were indeed asleep according to their brain activity, but they were able to respond.

Wait, they could...

So we could all...

So if I went to sleep now and you started asking me what's a word, pizza or dizzy, chances are I would respond.

There are chances.

It's not all the time, but it looks like there are some transient windows of opening, let's say, in which participants respond and then they stop responding.

But the thing is, the lucid dreamers were answering the questions a lot more often.

Yes.

So if you are lucid dreaming, you tend to respond way more.

So this tells us that even when people aren't lucid dreaming, there are these small windows where parts of our brain can listen to the outside world around us and can even figure out whether a word is real or made up, which upends what many of us had thought about what was going on while we were sleeping.

But there was something particularly special about what was going on in the brain of someone who was having a lucid dream.

And that meant that those windows where they could respond to the awake world, they were open more often.

And in Bashak's study, she saw an important clue as to why this might be.

When you're lucid, in our study, what we see is that your brain activity is more complex, more rich, and more rapid compared to when they were not listening.

But not so rich that they woke up.

Exactly.

It's like rich.

but not so rich.

Other research is helping us to explain how we can even have a lucid dream in the first place.

We think a brain area called the prefrontal cortex is important.

So normally when you're dreaming and not lucid, the activity in this part of the brain winds down, which Bashak says might explain why weird things can happen in your dream.

And that's fine.

In a dream, you might have your mom that transforms to a cat and you wouldn't be shocked.

You'll be like, oh yeah, my mom's a cat now.

It's okay.

It's because probably your frontal cortex is a bit deactivated, so you cannot, you don't get shocked by these.

But we think, based on limited evidence, that while people are lucidly dreaming, this critical area of your brain is more awake.

Which allows you to detect anomalies in your dream and be like, oh, this is a dream because this doesn't make sense.

This wouldn't happen in everyday life.

And because lucid dreaming is this hybrid state of consciousness, you know, between being asleep and awake, researchers like Bashak now want to use lucid dreaming to help us understand

what consciousness is at all, which remains, according to one review, quote, one of the largest lacunas in scientific knowledge.

And to save you the time, I googled it and lacuna means unfilled space.

And just quickly, some lucid dreams can actually be felt throughout your whole body.

Like if you ask lucid dreamers to hold their breath in a dream, you can see that air stops flowing through your nose and your blood oxygen levels drop just slightly.

In another study, someone had an orgasm in their lucid dream and researchers could measure more blood flowing to her vagina.

So, how close are we at Science Versus

to having what she's having?

A week has gone by,

and by now, have we unlocked this hybrid state of consciousness?

Everyone say yay if you've had a lucid dream.

One,

two,

three.

No luck, no luck.

Nope.

Blias, you actually have this superpower.

Has this supercharged your superpower?

0%

supercharged.

Like, I feel like it is actively draining my will to live.

Oh, no.

What's going on?

If I wake up in the middle of the night, it is very, very hard for me to go back to sleep.

I feel like my brain, once it's awake, it's like, ooh, I'm awake.

Would you like to think about 10,000 problems or like four weird things you said yesterday?

Maybe five?

We sit, we could keep going.

Inside my head, I am just like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, no.

I was like, I actually do not think this is probably worth it for me.

Wendy, how have you, how has it been going for you?

Something strange happened.

So let me tell you, I

woke up and had been in the middle of

this dream where

me and my,

where there was this sort of creepy oval.

I'll just jump in and spare you the pain of listening to too many of my dreams.

So basically what happened is that I woke up from this dream where a bunch of bonkers stuff is going on.

I was getting attacked by bats.

And just as Denim's study suggested, I tried to think of all of the wacky things that clearly made this a dream.

But in that moment, in the middle of the night, I couldn't think of any reason why it was obviously a dream.

And then I went back to sleep.

The next night, another dream.

This time I'm in a tunnel on the beach about to drown and I've got my laptop.

I wake up and,

well, as I I told Blythe and Rose.

And the same thing happens.

What about this was clearly a dream?

And I'm like, well, there could be a tunnel.

I could have brought my laptop to the beach.

And the second time it happened, I realized maybe I was sleeping the whole time.

What do you mean?

Like, you think you're trying to lucid dream as part of your dream?

Like, in your dream, you were asking?

I think maybe both times I didn't actually wake up.

You just dreamt that you woke up and you dreamt that you tried to lucid dream.

Well, does it still matter?

If I was asleep the whole time, this is known as a false awakening.

And curiously, academics have actually written about this phenomenon where your dreams try to convince you that they're actually not dreams.

AC says for him, this happens all the time.

It's the people in his lucid dreams who tell him this is not a dream like what the this is ridiculous

and i don't understand why the dream tries so hard to convince me that it's reality and denim and bashak told me that when you think about the neuroscience of lucid dreaming in a weird way this kind of makes sense The state that the brain is firing in when you're in a lucid dream, it's like a tightrope block between normal waking consciousness and normal non-lucid dreaming.

But that's a difficult state for the brain to maintain.

It almost like wants to tend towards either just waking up or falling into non-lucidity.

So maybe it's a way your brain to get back to this, you know, its natural state.

But yeah, I don't know.

That's that's very insane that your dream characters would tell you this is real life.

I know.

Exactly.

It's completely insane.

Okay, our next question.

Can we use lucid dreaming to help us in our lives?

To be happier people?

Well, in one survey, many folks said that having a lucid dream helped them when they were feeling depressed or low.

One person said that after a lucid dream, they could have this happy and beautiful experience that would stay with them for days.

Another said, quote, it can kickstart your day and keep you warm.

And a small study found that the day after people had lucid dreams, on average, they felt less stressed.

But be warned, if you're waking yourself up in the middle of the night to try lucid dreaming, we know that messing with your sleep can be bad for your mental health.

Just remember Blythe.

From inside my head, I am just like,

And curiously, some researchers actually found a link between being depressed and having more lucid dreams.

We're not sure why.

And just quickly, the last thing we want to look into is whether lucid dreaming can help people who have horrendous nightmares, which, if this happens to you regularly, it can be awful, making you anxious, having difficulty sleeping.

And so there's been this idea for a while now that if you can have a lucid dream.

It's like, of course, yeah, with a lucid dream, if you have a nightmare, you can do things.

Change it or transform it.

Brigitte Holzinger is a psychologist at at the Medical University of Vienna and she has studied this herself.

She's recruited people who were having terrible nightmares about being assaulted, run over by a train, hunted by a monster.

She'd teach them how to lucid dream and she told me that it really did help some of her patients.

Some woke themselves up, others would turn around and face the monster.

There was one person who used to have these really frightening dreams of being chased where they had to escape.

But after learning to lucid dream, they told Gita, Now that I know that I'm dreaming, I would be stupid if I would stop this or change it.

It's much better than every James Bond movie I've ever seen.

Oh, wow.

Now they could have fun with it.

Now that this true realization, it's just a dream.

Yeah, that was all very impressive and wonderful.

But unfortunately, the evidence that lucid dreaming can help loads of people conquer their nightmares, it isn't so impressive and wonderful.

We now have several rather small studies, including Gita's, and there's a new one that's been making headlines, that show that after getting people to try lucid dreaming, they do report fewer nightmares.

But these studies combine lucid dreaming with intensive therapy.

And it's really hard to tease out what's doing the heavy lifting here.

Plus, surveys find that even when people become lucid in their nightmares, they often can't change what's happening.

So they'll be stuck in this terrifying dream.

And just knowing this is a dream, it's not real,

that isn't necessarily that helpful.

In fact, in a survey, including more than 30 US veterans with PTSD who could lucid dream, only three said that they felt relieved to know that they'd been dreaming.

Many just felt anxious about it.

So even this superpower has its kryptonite, its limitations.

But despite that,

just like Superman,

I still wanted to fly.

I switched up the lucid dreaming method a little bit just so I could sleep better, but kept trying.

And still, the closest I'd gotten is realizing that I'm in a dream, but then getting too excited and waking up before I could do anything.

I talked to Gita about it, who gave me one final piece of advice.

Almost everybody experiences that.

You get so exhilarated.

Oh my God, this is now happening.

Boom!

And you get up, you wake up.

Exactly, exactly.

Yes, I know, of course, I had those as well.

To me, it is like learning how to skate.

You have to get your balance.

Eventually, you will be able to keep that balance and

ride that wave.

Just be patient and persistent.

All right, all right.

But it'll happen if you keep doing it.

Blythe, Rose, it's the end of the episode.

Everyone say

yay if you had a lucid dream.

One,

two,

three.

Yay!

Really?

Wow, it worked.

You did?

I had one.

Oh, my God, Wendy.

What?

I know.

I did it.

I did it.

Oh, my God.

Do you want to hear the voice message I made straight after?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh.

I just had a lucid dream.

I just did it.

I just did it.

I just did it.

I was just having a nap and I just went to sleep.

And

in the dream I was lying on my bed and

my entire ponytail came off

and I was looking at it going oh

then I was like no wait this is a dream ponytails don't just pop off this is a dream this is a dream this is a dream

and then I put the ponytail down

on the bed and I just felt it like how everyone says you just feel because feel things feel so real

and it did and it did and it did and it felt

it felt like my hair it felt like my hair all the little strands all the little the little bits of hair it felt it felt like that it felt like that i did it huh

how did you feel when you woke up it felt awesome it felt awesome i do love that that the lopped off ponytail was enough

of the like unreality dream world you know like it was the

chopped-off ponytail, it was like weird enough.

Yeah, not taking your laptop into a cave on the beach, that was par for the course.

But a haircut

that would never happen.

That's science versus

this episode has 99 citations.

So, if you want to read more about the science of lucid dreaming, then you just need to go to our show notes and click on our transcript.

And there's a link, and you'll see all that wonderful science there awaiting you.

If you want to tell us about your lucid dreaming experiences, I would love to hear it.

You can find us on Instagram, we're at science underscore BS, and I'm on TikTok at WendyZuckerman.

This episode has been produced by me, Wendy Zuckerman, with help from Rose Rimmler, Michelle Dang, Meryl Horne, Joel Werner, and Aketti Foster Keys.

We're edited by Blythe Terrell.

Fact-checking by Erica Akiko-Howard.

Mix and sound design by Sam Baer.

Music written by Bobby Lord, Bumi Hidaka, So Wiley, Peter Leonard, and Emma Munger.

Thanks to all of the researchers that we spoke to for this episode, including Dr.

Karen Conkley, Dr.

Benjamin Bard, and Professor Ken Pala.

Also, a big thanks to the Zuckerman family and Joseph LaBelle Wilson.

Science Versus is a Spotify studio's original.

Listen to us for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

If you are listening on Spotify, then follow us and tap the bell icon so you'll get notifications when new episodes come out.

And if you like the show, please give us a five-star review.

It really helps people find the show.

I'm Wendy Zuckerman.

Back to you next time.

Radio Tokyo

from PRX.