Sizing up the Gaza rebuild

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Speaker 2 So there's this bridge, right?

Speaker 7 It's one of five that links the east and west sides of the Iraqi city of Mosul.

Speaker 14 The city's divided by the Tigris River, which basically runs through it north to south.

Speaker 2 It's the biggest bridge in terms of traffic capacity, and it's the newest of the five, so it's called the fifth bridge.

Speaker 9 For most of its lifespan, this bridge wasn't really on anyone's radar until in 2016 it found itself in the unfortunate position of being right in the middle of this.

Speaker 22 Mosul is the biggest battle anywhere on the planet this century in terms of the numbers of troops engaged, but also in terms of the size of the city and the number of civilians around.

Speaker 13 The Battle of Mosul was waged between the Islamic State Terrorist Group and

Speaker 13 I mean basically everyone else.

Speaker 1 The country's special forces reached the banks of the Tigris River for the first time but the western side of the city was still under IS control.

Speaker 24 During the battle the fifth bridge did not fare very well.

Speaker 17 Looking at satellite images, you can see that sometime in December 2016 a missile or an explosive punched a hole right through the middle of the span over the Tigris River.

Speaker 1 By now the bridges had been destroyed.

Speaker 13 You can see the water of the river straight through the hole. Not only that, but the approaches at both ends have been destroyed too.

Speaker 10 Six months later, in July 2017, the Battle of Mosul was over.

Speaker 18 Satellite images reveal that by that time, the bridge and most of the buildings around it had been destroyed.

Speaker 8 But if you watch the satellite feed in time lapse, you can see something incredible happen.

Speaker 31 Three months after the battle, cars are driving over the bridge again.

Speaker 15 A makeshift bridge, little more than a long steel plank, has been laid across the hole and cars are driving carefully across it.

Speaker 31 By five months after the battle, there's a little daily traffic jam at the makeshift plank bridge. By the two-year mark, there's a second plank bridge in place allowing two-way traffic through.

Speaker 28 By the fifth anniversary of the end of the battle construction is underway to actually fix the hole, not just lay planks over it.

Speaker 29 And by the sixth anniversary the bridge was fully reopened.

Speaker 33 We can hear now the sound of

Speaker 33 the choir from the church. Again, we can hear the bells again ring in Musul and this is very powerful.
I think there is hope.

Speaker 33 It will take time and the wounds of this city will take a lot of time to heal.

Speaker 10 But Mosul is on its way.

Speaker 11 Eight years on and all five bridges have reopened.

Speaker 34 And in some parts of the city, people have returned to living somewhat normal lives.

Speaker 24 I've been thinking a lot about Mosul ever since news broke of a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.

Speaker 35 I think you're going to have tremendous success, and Gaza is going to be rebuilt.

Speaker 15 In the ceasefire agreement, there is no mention of a plan to actually rebuild Gaza, but the US President Donald Trump is confident that someone is going to stump up the cash.

Speaker 35 And you have some very wealthy countries, as you know, over there, and it would take a small fraction of

Speaker 35 their wealth to do that. But I think they want to do it.
it.

Speaker 13 So, what kind of money and what kind of time are we talking about here? I want to look at this in the context of Mosul, the last city destroyed by war.

Speaker 13 What can its story tell us about what's to come for Gaza?

Speaker 4 I'm Matt Bevan, and this is If you Listen.

Speaker 25 So it's not uncommon in a mosque for a visiting Islamic leader to speak during Friday prayers.

Speaker 24 Perhaps a famous Imam is in town, you might have him come and give a sermon.

Speaker 18 Well, this happened at the Al-Nuri Grand Mosque one Friday in Mosul in 2014.

Speaker 36 This man, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, had never appeared in public before, but his reputation had preceded him.

Speaker 21 Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is the second most wanted man in the world, with a $10 million reward posted by the US.

Speaker 24 He was the head of the world's most terrifying terrorist group, ISIS.

Speaker 37 In a word, ISIS.

Speaker 37 In three words, holy f ⁇ ing ISIS.

Speaker 39 ISIS militants are fighting for control of Tikrit and have been in control of Fallujah for five months.

Speaker 29 These days we know that ISIS is extremely bad news when it comes to your town, but back in 2014 ISIS was kind of a mysterious group of hyper-religious Toyota Hilux fans who had seemingly come out of nowhere.

Speaker 21 Baghdadi and his men now rule over a territory larger than Great Britain.

Speaker 28 And in June of that year they arrived at the outskirts of Mosul, an ancient city of 1.8 million people.

Speaker 15 In the city centre is the 850-year-old Al-Nuri Mosque, which is world famous for its squat and extremely crooked minaret, affectionately known as Al-Hadba or the Hunchback.

Speaker 11 The minaret is so significant and famous that it features on the Iraqi currency and it's responsible for Mosul's nickname, the Hunchback or Humped City.

Speaker 7 It was at the top of this minaret that ISIS raised its flag, and it was inside the mosque that al-Baghdadi came out of the shadows.

Speaker 21 Baghdadi's speech was a pivotal moment. He's declaring himself leader of the world's Muslims.

Speaker 36 With a cheap pedestal fan spinning behind him to keep him cool, he declared the creation of the Islamic State, a caliphate, with him as the leader.

Speaker 22 Islamic State essentially stamped itself as having come out of the shadows, no longer being a terrorist organization, but really being being what it claimed to be, a state.

Speaker 43 At the moment they control the lives of eight million people across northern Syria and northern Iraq.

Speaker 3 Now this was like 25 global crises ago, but you probably remember that these guys were very, very unpleasant.

Speaker 1 For the past few months, Islamic State has held these men, women and children hostage as human shields. An Iraqi police chief, first blindfolded, then beheaded.

Speaker 16 They were so unpleasant that a coalition made up of basically everybody came together to take them down.

Speaker 44 The advance of ISIS could see the United States and Iran fighting on the same side.

Speaker 3 For two years, the anti-ISIS coalition gradually pushed the terror group back, boxing them into the city of Mosul.

Speaker 45 At this aid station, just 15 kilometers east of Mosul, there's a steady stream of casualties.

Speaker 28 Mosul is one of the oldest cities in the world.

Speaker 18 It's known in the Bible, Torah, and Quran as Nineveh.

Speaker 13 The buildings are a mixture of old and new, tightly packed, particularly in the area close to the Tigris River.

Speaker 36 The urban density in the old city around the Hunchback Minaret made it difficult to penetrate, which is why this was where ISIS was going to make its last stand.

Speaker 45 As the Iraqi army moves up from the south, Kurdish troops attack IS towns to the east and north of Mosul.

Speaker 41 Gradually they pushed into the center of a city that was still full of hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Speaker 11 Eventually the part of the city east of the Tigris River was reclaimed by the Iraqi forces.

Speaker 45 The battle for Mosul is only half won. IS still controls the western side of the city.

Speaker 34 So the five bridges across the river were blown.

Speaker 11 ISIS was trapped in the old city on the western side of the river, the most densely populated populated urban area in Mosul.

Speaker 1 Day by day, thousands of families stream out of West Mosul, shell-shocked, traumatised, and utterly exhausted.

Speaker 10 This is the point where the similarities with the situation in Gaza get really obvious.

Speaker 16 ISIS militants were surrounded inside a densely populated urban area, which they had fortified and booby-trapped.

Speaker 1 The risk of civilian casualties is incredibly high because IS fighters deliberately hide in densely populated areas.

Speaker 18 The majority of fighting was happening amongst busy streets lined with shops and apartments.

Speaker 38 And the Good Guy Coalition, which included Australia, tried their best to avoid civilian casualties.

Speaker 48 The degree of complexity in the current phase of the operation will be heightened also by the potential presence of up to 750,000 civilians who may be remaining in West Mosul.

Speaker 10 But avoiding civilian deaths turned out to be impossible.

Speaker 18 Eight months into the battle, two Australian jets dropped bombs on ISIS targets, which killed up to 35 civilians, including destroying a house where 11 members of a single family lived.

Speaker 49 Members of Amjed al-Safar's extended family lived in the house, including five of his brothers and sisters.

Speaker 19 Like Gaza, thousands of innocent people were killed in Mosul.

Speaker 50 You don't get to drop bombs on cities and towns and not kill civilians, and it took a month before it it was safe enough to dig those bodies out.

Speaker 15 But unlike Gaza, Mosul was teeming with international journalists documenting the destruction and daily death time.

Speaker 1 Questions over Australia's secrecy in war are now being raised.

Speaker 50 In our view, there's just no real transparency from Australia here and there's no real accountability.

Speaker 13 The presence of these journalists meant that this particular family killed in an airstrike had their deaths investigated.

Speaker 50 Everyone in Iraq and Syria has a cell phone. Everybody is taking videos, photographs, uploading stuff onto the internet.

Speaker 50 So we know a great deal about civilians, and it's become much more difficult for militaries to ignore that information now.

Speaker 15 Rather than become anonymous numbers in an increasing death toll, the family members' names and photos were on the news, and the Australian military was forced to answer questions about it.

Speaker 29 Several member states of the anti-ISIS coalition subsequently held investigations into civilian casualties from airstrikes in Mosul.

Speaker 11 I don't think that post-ceasefire there is going to be similar investigations in Israel.

Speaker 8 Gradually, the noose around ISIS's neck pulled tighter and tighter as they retreated closer and closer to the Al-Nuri Mosque, with their black flag still raised above the hunchback minaret.

Speaker 45 A block-by-block battle in the west of the city. Here, inching ever closer to the Al-Nuri Mosque, there are snipers on both sides.

Speaker 28 ISIS decided if they couldn't have it, nobody could.

Speaker 6 And late yesterday, as Iraqi security forces closed in on that mosque about 100 meters away, ISIS blew it up.

Speaker 6 A mosque which sat there

Speaker 6 since the 12th century. ISIS blew it up.

Speaker 8 Now, al-Baghdadi escaped before the end and lived in hiding for two years before the US finally got him.

Speaker 45 Abu

Speaker 4 Bakar al-Baghdadi is dead.

Speaker 13 But really, the caliphate ended that day with the destruction of the Al-Nuri Mosque in July 2017.

Speaker 24 The nine-month battle of Mosul was over.

Speaker 1 A battle which was called the biggest urban battle since World War II.

Speaker 28 Death toll estimates vary, but it's something like 20,000 combatants and 10,000 civilians killed.

Speaker 11 One million Mosul residents were displaced.

Speaker 23 Looking at drone footage of the destroyed mosque, you can see that it's simply the epicenter of a widespread catastrophe. Almost as far as the eye can see, there are roofs caved in.

Speaker 3 cars burned out, collapsed walls, whole buildings were taken down.

Speaker 49 This mound of rubble is all that remains of a family home in the city of Mosul.

Speaker 10 In the distance you can see the fifth bridge, one of its spans sagging, a hole blown straight through the road surface.

Speaker 31 It looks really very bad, but it's hard to judge the scale of destruction from drone footage alone.

Speaker 2 Thankfully, the United Nations has a unit called UNOSAT, whose job is to objectively quantify this kind of thing.

Speaker 52 Often in times of crisis, it can be very chaotic, but once you get the satellite image, you are at least sure to get objective information.

Speaker 13 They use satellite images to assess damage.

Speaker 29 In Mosul, UNOSAT counted 19,888 damaged buildings, of which 4,773 were totally destroyed.

Speaker 36 Most of the damage was concentrated in the old city.

Speaker 7 Of course, many of the buildings were apartment buildings, meaning that the number of actual homes destroyed was more like 50,000.

Speaker 18 Approximately 8 million tons of rubble was left by the battle, much of it riddled with explosives and booby traps and covering up thousands of human bodies.

Speaker 41 But there was a strong motivation in Mosul to rebuild what had been destroyed and bring the city back to life.

Speaker 21 And what you see on the streets today is people who are happy to be liberated starting the process of getting on with their lives.

Speaker 11 Within days, the sound of gunfire had been replaced by the sound of jackhammers.

Speaker 23 And those jackhammers have now been at work for eight years.

Speaker 32 If you go to Mosul now, you'll see that the Hunchback Minaret and the Al-Nuri Mosque have been rebuilt by UNESCO with funding from the United Arab Emirates.

Speaker 53 We are very proud to do it for the community. The minaret belongs to the 12th century and is very important.

Speaker 3 They painstakingly restored the minaret to its original crooked shape using original bricks.

Speaker 18 Other surrounding churches and mosques have also been rebuilt.

Speaker 23 After eight years of tireless jackhammering and construction, the bridges have been rebuilt too.

Speaker 47 Most of the city, particularly east of the river, has returned to normality.

Speaker 36 But in the old city, at the center of the fighting around the hunchback minaret, thousands of homes are still in ruins.

Speaker 31 Most of the destruction has not been cleared.

Speaker 7 Despite a Japanese-funded effort to build a plant capable of recycling debris into building materials, there are still explosives hidden under the rubble.

Speaker 29 Some reports indicate that as little as 7% of the homes destroyed in the battle have been rebuilt.

Speaker 7 And it's important to note that's the level of progress in an area totally controlled by the sovereign, internationally recognised Iraqi government, with the cooperation of global partners and local citizens, without any interference from ISIS.

Speaker 11 But despite all that, it's still slow going.

Speaker 11 So that's the situation in Mosul, eight years after ISIS was defeated there.

Speaker 28 How does that compare to what the people in Gaza face?

Speaker 27 Well, we have a bit of an idea because UNOSAT has been keeping an eye on the war in Gaza from orbit.

Speaker 3 And look, it's bad.

Speaker 32 It's so much worse than Mosul, it's hard to wrap your head around.

Speaker 40 Here's the latest info we have.

Speaker 54 First of all, on the destruction, it is now in the region of 84%.

Speaker 8 84% of all buildings and infrastructure.

Speaker 54 In certain parts of Gaza, like in Gaza City, it's even up to 92%

Speaker 54 of the destruction.

Speaker 8 The UNOSAT analysis for the entire strip is a couple of months old, but they identified 192,812 damaged structures, of which more than half have been totally destroyed.

Speaker 55 The United Nations says there are tens of millions of tons of rubble in Gaza, much of it contaminated by unexploded ordnance and asbestos. Also under the rubble lie thousands of unrecovered bodies.

Speaker 25 It's hard to visualize these numbers, so why don't we just do a straight comparison of the numbers in Gaza to the numbers from Mosul.

Speaker 20 According to the UN, the war in Gaza has created 6.8 times more debris from 9.6 times more damaged buildings than the battle in Mosul.

Speaker 18 In terms of buildings totally destroyed, Gaza has 21 times more than Mosul did.

Speaker 29 And clearing all that debris is going to be much harder than it was in Mosul because UNOSAT has assessed that 77% of Gaza's road network has been damaged. Fixing this is going to be very expensive.

Speaker 54 Just to give you an estimate of the challenges that the reconstruction efforts will cost, estimate that about $70 billion will be required for the reconstruction of Gaza.

Speaker 13 $70 billion.

Speaker 2 But really, that figure is almost meaningless.

Speaker 18 Even if someone transferred all that money into the UN Development Authority's bank account tomorrow, there are way bigger challenges than money.

Speaker 41 For starters, before you can even start building, you've got a truly extraordinary amount of debris to clear and nowhere to clear it to.

Speaker 56 The size is if you build a 12 metre wall around Central Park and fill that with rubble, that's about the amount of uh rubble that needs to be removed.

Speaker 3 Removed to where?

Speaker 11 Is Israel going to take it?

Speaker 47 Is Egypt?

Speaker 29 Are they going to just push it into the Mediterranean Sea?

Speaker 2 And what are you going to do with the hundreds of thousands of people who are currently using that rubble as shelter?

Speaker 46 There is no other place, there are no shelters. They promised to bring us tents, but they didn't.

Speaker 42 Every person wants to find shelter. I took refuge in my house.
It's better than sitting in places where I can't live.

Speaker 29 Two of this man's sons have been killed by Israeli bombs.

Speaker 24 His daughter is trying to find her toys in their ruined house.

Speaker 1 The thing I miss the most in my house is is my bedroom and my toys, my stuff and my bed.

Speaker 15 As it stands, the current ceasefire agreement lays out no plan for what happens to the displaced Palestinians in the short term.

Speaker 2 Can they go and live in Israel or Egypt or somewhere else while their houses are rebuilt?

Speaker 17 And who is actually going to do that work?

Speaker 27 The Israelis?

Speaker 30 The Americans?

Speaker 28 Hamas, which is apparently still around?

Speaker 17 How would the locals feel about those solutions?

Speaker 20 The UN has started clearing some of the rubble, but it's only to try and clear the roads and get hospitals and other vital services back up and running.

Speaker 25 They're not even touching the destroyed houses.

Speaker 21 When the UN talks about that job, they get extremely vague.

Speaker 56 It's a really cumbersome process and will take many, many years to complete.

Speaker 54 How many years? You know, I mean, I think

Speaker 54 one are looking probably in the region of a decade or decades and even longer.

Speaker 3 Longer than decades?

Speaker 29 I think he just means several decades there, but still, even if the ceasefire holds and the bloodshed in Gaza really is over, we now have 2 million people living in a tightly packed pile of debris, penned in by Israel, Egypt and the sea.

Speaker 38 The situation is exponentially worse than Mosul and in Mosul they've only rebuilt 7% of homes over the course of eight years.

Speaker 32 There is no plan in the ceasefire agreement for what to do about this enormous problem.

Speaker 3 And if it's not dealt with properly, people are going to be very upset.

Speaker 11 And people being upset is what started this whole mess in the first place.

Speaker 25 If you're listening, is written by me, Matt Bevan.

Speaker 13 It's produced by Adair Shepard. Supervising producer is Cara Jensen-McKinnon.

Speaker 13 As you might be able to hear, my voice is mostly back, so I'm capable of actually answering the questions you've sent in to us.

Speaker 15 There is too many to fit in one episode, but we'll answer a big chunk of them on Tuesday.

Speaker 18 But one of the things that a lot of people are asking about is the AI boom and whether it's a bubble about to burst.

Speaker 29 Lots of people are comparing it to the dot-com bubble of the late 1990s, but what was that all about?

Speaker 25 And apart from both things being computer-related, are the two booms actually alike?

Speaker 18 That's coming on Thursday.

Speaker 12 I'll catch you next week.