Vase-mania

Speaker 1 This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

Speaker 2 Is your cash working hard for you right until the very moment you need it? It could be if it was in a Wealthfront cash account.

Speaker 2 With WealthFront, you can earn 4% annual percentage yield from partner banks until you're ready to invest, nearly 10 times the national average.

Speaker 2 And you get free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts 24-7, 365. 4% APY is not a promotional rate, and there's no limit to what you can deposit and earn.

Speaker 2 And it takes just minutes to transfer your cash to any of Wealthfront's expert-built investing accounts when you're ready. Wealthfront.
Money works better here.

Speaker 2 Go to WealthFront.com to start saving and investing today.

Speaker 2 Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC member Fenra SIPC. Wealthfront is not a bank.

Speaker 2 The APY on cash deposits as of December 27, 2024 is representative, subject to change, and requires no minimum. Funds in the cash account are swept to partner banks where they earn the variable APY.

Speaker 2 The national average interest rate for savings accounts is posted on on fdic.gov as of December 16, 2024.

Speaker 2 Go to wealthrunt.com to start today.

Speaker 3 Hauling stuff for a DIY project, planning a big household move, or need a short-term business rental for a seasonal surge?

Speaker 3 Whether you're headed around town or cross-country, Penske Truck Rental has some of the cleanest, newest, and best-maintained vehicles on the road.

Speaker 3 With quick pickup and drop-off, flexible reservations, and personalized support, we can help ensure you get the right vehicle when and where you need it. Gain ground with Penske.

Speaker 3 Get a quote at penskey truckrental.com today.

Speaker 5 Want to stop engine problems before they start? Pick up a can of C-Foam Motor Treatment. C-Foam helps engines start easier, run smoother, and last longer.

Speaker 7 Trusted by millions every day, C-Foam is safe and easy to use in any engine.

Speaker 5 Just pour it in your fuel tank.

Speaker 5 Make the proven choice with C-Foam.

Speaker 8 Available everywhere, Automotive products are sold.

Speaker 8 Seafoam!

Speaker 9 BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

Speaker 4 This is in our time from BBC Radio 4, and this is one of more than a thousand episodes you can find on BBC Sounds and on our website.

Speaker 4 If you scroll down the page for this edition, you can find a reading list to go with it. I hope you enjoyed the programme.

Speaker 4 Hello, in the second half of the 18th century, inspired by archaeological discoveries, the Grand Tour, and the founding of the British Museum, parts of the British public developed a huge appetite for acquiring vases modelled on ancient archetypes.

Speaker 4 This enthusiasm reached such a pitch that we might call it vase mania.

Speaker 4 Initially collected by aristocrats, Josiah Wedgwood made reproductions of these antiquities commercially available to an emerging middle class to display a piece of their classical past in their drawing rooms.

Speaker 4 At a time of social upheaval, all these vases came to symbolize the birth of European civilization, the epitome of good taste, and a kind of timeless serenity that would later be celebrated by John Keech in his poem Ode on a Grecian Urn.

Speaker 4 With me to discuss vasmenia, I Caroline Maccaffrey Howarth, lecturer in the history of art at the University of Edinburgh, Rosemary Sweet, Professor of Urban History at the University of Leicester, and the writer and biographer Jenny Uglow.

Speaker 4 Jenny, why were people particularly interested in the classical world in the 18th century? What excavations were going on at the time? What was being discovered?

Speaker 10 Well, it's an extraordinary exciting time for excavations. It goes back really to the 1730s and 1740s when the work started in earnest on Pompeii and Herculaneum.

Speaker 10 And it was just a sort of new interest because interest before that had been in Roman, the Roman past. And this was thought to be the Greek or even the Etruscan past.

Speaker 10 And so in the seventeen fifties, because of this feeling that we didn't know a lot about Greek, people went off to Athens and published books on Greek antiquities, and particularly also in France.

Speaker 10 There are many people involved with the French excavations, published wonderful folios of vases and things that were discovered.

Speaker 10 And so after that, it becomes a kind of race both to keep up with France and also to prove that you knew about Greek antiquity as well as Roman antiquity.

Speaker 4 What else is going on at this time to, as you encourage the focus on the classical past? And to what extent were Greek vitals a distraction from the turbulence of the times?

Speaker 10 I think they're more of a distraction.

Speaker 10 I mean, they become status symbols to prove that you're in touch with the latest sort of archaeological finds and the latest classical learning, and that's your sort of status as a well-educated classicist.

Speaker 10 But also

Speaker 10 it's a time of a sort of growing disturbance, a growing uncertainty, problems with the American colonies after the Stamp Act, which is, you know, they take up the thing, no taxation without representation.

Speaker 10 There are troubles in different parts of the sort of industrial world, the coal heavers on the tie, the silk workers and so on. And there's a popular demand for more rights.

Speaker 10 So, the supporters of the radical MP, John Wilkes, for example, 1768, there's a big meeting in St.

Speaker 10 George's Fields in London where the authorities send in the troops and they open fire and people are killed. So, it's not a revolutionary time, but there's a rumbling of unrest.

Speaker 10 So, that whole sense of classical serenity and elegance and dignity is very much something for a particular class to hold on to, to say this has nothing to do with us.

Speaker 4 And they used that to recreate it in a way that we're going to discover. But was it important that they talk about it? Did they say it used to be better in the old days?

Speaker 4 Are we uncovering it now, or was it part of the conversation at the time?

Speaker 10 Oh, I think it was very much part of that conversation at the time. There'd always been that sense of talking about the Roman past, you know, Augustan virtues and so on, straightforward.

Speaker 10 But the Greek is also that idea of sort of beauty, of mystery. So it's not just an austere classicism, it's a kind of quite romantic classicism.

Speaker 10 Nobody quite knew what the stories were and things like that. So it can be a thing that you chat about amongst yourselves, you know, what is that on the stars? And also where did you get them?

Speaker 10 You know, it's it's an exciting part of sort of European belonging and discovery.

Speaker 4 Rouie, why did Greek attract particular attention?

Speaker 11 Well, as Jenny says, initially the main interest in the classical past was with Roman antiquity, because that was that much more accessible.

Speaker 11 It was there in Italy for you to see right before your eyes. It was even there in Britain if you went up to the Roman wall or went to Leicester to see Jury Wall.

Speaker 11 And so that was the dominant interest, and particularly the sort of inheritance of the Renaissance era was this interest in Roman antiquity.

Speaker 11 But people had always been interested in Greece, obviously, as being the source of Roman civilisation. Of course, the Romans had admired Greece, so there's always an awareness.

Speaker 11 And I think what happens in the 18th century, as Jenny says in the discovery of Pompeii and Herculaneum, but there's also the discovery, or at least rediscovery, of the Greek temples at Peistum, for example, which is south of Naples.

Speaker 11 And there is more

Speaker 11 knowledge of Greece because there's more exploration there.

Speaker 11 So Jenny's mentioned Jane Stewart and Nicholas Revett, who went to Greece in the 1750s to study the monuments in Greece and published their Antiquities of Athens in 1762.

Speaker 4 How did they publish them?

Speaker 11 It was published at the expense of the Society of Dilettante, which was an association of largely aristocratic men who, as Horace Walpole said, had been to Italy and had been drunk.

Speaker 11 But it was really a self-selecting group of rich young men who were interested in travel and who were interested in the classical past because that was what their education was and they had the money and the wealth to provide patronage for artists and draftsmen like Reverton Stewart and this was a form of conspicuous consumption if you like that they could afford to go to Greece that people knew about Rome Rome it was well documented by the mid-18th century

Speaker 4 they'd been here for quite a few hundred years anyway

Speaker 11 and but Greece was not quite Terra Nova, but it had been,

Speaker 11 well, it was much less accessible. It was still under Ottoman control, and far less was known about it.

Speaker 11 And so, in the second half of the 18th century, we get a general increase of British travel anyway, exploring all over Europe, whether it's to Spain, whether it's to Scandinavia, whether it's to Greece.

Speaker 11 So, there's this broadening of travel.

Speaker 11 And there's this interest in Greece, partly, as I say, stimulated by an awareness of this Greek civilization in Italy, but also the fashionable interest, because it's what is new.

Speaker 11 And there's also a more literary interest in Greece.

Speaker 11 This is a time where Robert Wood is writing about Homer and representing Homer as a poet of infinite merit for his primitive simplicity, if you like.

Speaker 11 Voltaire had been very dismissive of Homer and thought him rough and barbaric, whereas the second half of the 18th century, there's this ideal of the purity and simplicity of ancient Greece culture that has been uncorrupted by modern civilization.

Speaker 11 So you can see a kind of Rousseauist influence there as well, the primitive simplicity of ancient Greek culture.

Speaker 4 There were other trends at the time,

Speaker 4 ascetic trends, Rococo, Chinoiserie, the Gothic revival. How did they fare? Was there a competition between them?

Speaker 11 Well, I think initially the Greek revival, if you can call it that, was on a par with the Rococo, Chinoiserie, the Gothic, but it wasn't mainstream.

Speaker 11 So the early Greek buildings like the Temple of the Four Winds in Oxford or the Doric Temple at Hagley, these are sort of almost ornamental buildings which are built in an idiosyncratic style like the chinoiserie, like the Rococo.

Speaker 11 But by the end of the 18th century, there is much more knowledge about Greek architecture, and it's becoming much more what we've got for Greek revival, and buildings are being built

Speaker 11 on the principles of Greek architecture. So it's a gradual displacement of these more ornamental styles, if you like.

Speaker 11 And the point about chinoiserie, Rococo, Gothic is that they are the contrast of uniformity, the symmetry, the

Speaker 11 proportions of classical architecture. And so that's, if you like, a reaction against that.
And Greek revival is initially almost treated as another variant, but becomes mainstream.

Speaker 11 And does, and there's always the underlying interest in chinoiserie.

Speaker 11 And so we, I mean, we have the sort of chinoiserie of the mid-18th century where you have William Chambers' Pagoda at Kew, but then by the end of the 18th, early 19th century, you've got the exoticism of the Brighton Pavilion for the Prince Regent, which is a simile, the appeal is the sense of the exotic, the sense of difference, that it doesn't obey any of the rules of classical architecture.

Speaker 11 So I think that this is one of the interesting things about the Greek Revival, the way in which it sort of insinuates its way into British culture.

Speaker 4 Thank you. Caroline, what else was going on at the time to develop people's interest in classical world? For example, let's take the Grand Tour to start with.

Speaker 9 Yeah, absolutely. So, I think the Grand Tour is really the sort of rite of passage for young men and women, predominantly men, but women were definitely travelling as well,

Speaker 9 to kind of complete their education, which was absolutely grounded in the classics.

Speaker 9 And this would involve you going, travelling across continental Europe to France, to Switzerland, but also, of course, to Italy and then eventually to Greece as well to see these excavations, to visit ruins, but also to kind of pick up, you know, some antique sculpture or plaster cast or a souvenir print by Piranese to have your grand tour portrait done by someone like Pompeo Battoni, who sort of makes his money really doing these grand tour portraits.

Speaker 9 So they are travelling around, they're seeing these sites and they're witnessing them.

Speaker 9 and reading travel literature which is telling them what they should be thinking and then going to these sites and sort of recreating that aura of standing in front of these original objects which I think is really really interesting that there's also this this idea that it's an opportunity to be away from home.

Speaker 9 There's a freedom there that they can explore. Quite often, they would go with a sort of tutor, a Cicerone, they would be called, and kind of play away as well.

Speaker 9 Lady Mary Montagu writes in Venice that she's seeing these sort of young men, grand tourists, and that they are the greatest blockheads in nature.

Speaker 9 And I think that kind of sums up that, yes, this isn't a kind of

Speaker 4 English young men abroad. Well, exactly.

Speaker 9 I mean, how much has changed, really, perhaps you could say. But I think there's definitely the sense that you're going, you're completing your education, but also

Speaker 9 there's other things happening there as well.

Speaker 4 Have we any idea the scale on which this was done? I mean, there's a few dozen, a few score, a few hundred?

Speaker 9 Yeah, definitely. I mean, we have know that there are thousands of people going on a grand tour.
We're dealing really with the elite, right?

Speaker 4 The top of the aristocratic elite at this point. Wealthy or titled?

Speaker 9 Both, I think, a definite mixture of the sort of nobility, really, at this moment.

Speaker 9 Very much so.

Speaker 9 We are seeing artists and designers going or perhaps having patronage so that they can go and travel but for the most part we're dealing with kind of the top echelons of society going to really understand

Speaker 9 and improve the taste that they have.

Speaker 4 Bringing the ideas and the objects mostly back, how did that fit in with the movements of the clubs in Britain, the drift of intellectual life in Britain by the sort of people you've mentioned?

Speaker 9 So Rowe's already mentioned the Society of Dilettante, this very select, elite gentleman's club that was really all about preserving the world.

Speaker 4 This is being printed as well. It isn't just chat, isn't it?

Speaker 9 Oh, yes, so yes, so they are funding things like the Antiquities of Athens, but there's also a huge increase in print culture from the end of the 17th century onwards.

Speaker 9 That's happening in Italy with publications like Valori's, but also in France with the Comte de Caloux and Montfassant.

Speaker 9 And then you get this kind of burst of publications that are just showing archaeological ruins, they're showing designs from the temples that they're finding, but also from vases as well.

Speaker 9 And then that's coming, and that is having a sort of dissemination because then people who cannot afford to or are not able to travel on these grand tours are still able to access the antique to see the sort of truth replicated through the writing but also the visual accounts in these publications as well.

Speaker 4 Have you any idea of the force of this taste going through a particular strand or strands, you tell me, in society at the time?

Speaker 9 Yes, I mean, I think it was definitely much more accessible to the elite who were able to travel.

Speaker 9 But then, I think, through these printed publications, you do get the opportunity for the rest of society to access these types of documents and images. But then, you also have this desire.

Speaker 9 We see it with the Society of Dilettante, but we also see it with people like William Hamilton, Ambassador to Naples, who really want to encourage people at home to benefit from antique taste and from the classical past.

Speaker 9 So that's a real opportunity, I think, to show.

Speaker 4 Jenny, Jenny Uglo,

Speaker 4 let's take William Hamilton across the table to Jenny.

Speaker 4 What was his position in all this?

Speaker 10 Oh, in terms of vase mania, Hamilton is absolutely the sort of key to a great surge in British interest. Because we think of William Hamilton, if at all,

Speaker 10 in terms of Emma, his wife Emma, and Nelson, and so on, and scandal, and things like that. But that's when Hamilton is in his sixties.

Speaker 10 When he goes out to Naples, he's in his thirties, he's 30. He goes in 1764 as envoy to the kingdom of the two Sicilies.
He's tremendously enthusiastic about everything that he sees there.

Speaker 10 First, the volcanoes, he's up and down Vesuvius all the time. His friends think that he's going to get burnt in an eruption.

Speaker 10 He's writing letters about that and the Campy Flagri, all the volcanic area.

Speaker 10 But he's also collecting vases because,

Speaker 10 as Caroline has said, you know, there they are. They've seen engravings of them in the Comte de Quelieu and things like that.
So he buys from collectors.

Speaker 10 He

Speaker 10 goes out and he even unearths some himself. He opens tombs, he gets them back, he writes about them, and within three years

Speaker 10 he has produced the first of what will be four volumes of extraordinary folios of beautifully reproduced images of his collection.

Speaker 4 Does he do the function?

Speaker 10 No, he would have had them engraved and drawn for him. And he employs also a commentator, the Baron d'Ancarville, who is going to write about them.

Speaker 10 And it's a time when, so it said, there's this great interest in history, generally, history of the earth, history of the past, history of everything.

Speaker 10 So Winkleman's A History of Ancient Art has been published exactly when Hamilton goes to Naples.

Speaker 10 And so he gets Hankover to write. And they're theorising about the history of art as well.

Speaker 10 But the main thing is that Hamilton deliberately makes these folios, as he said, a present to British manufacturers.

Speaker 10 Here they will find, he says, a constant flowing stream of designs and some of the engravings are laid out flat, like in a rectangle, so that you could actually trace, copy the design, reconstruct it, print it, you know.

Speaker 10 He wants

Speaker 10 British, it's a patriotic act. Britain can imitate these.

Speaker 4 Why was he so specifically focused on vases and why did people follow him so readily as they did?

Speaker 10 Well, I don't think he, I think he would have collected anything. But you know what? Collecting is a sort of mania in itself, isn't it?

Speaker 10 You've got one vase, but that one over there, oh, that's so much better. You know, I got out of that.
I've got a wine vase. I haven't got a water vase.

Speaker 10 So it's that kind of drive. He just wanted to have the best collection ever.
And then he wanted to show off, so in the end, he sells them to the British Museum for a lot of money.

Speaker 4 You want to come in Carla?

Speaker 9 He just at one point Hamilton says that antique vases have this je sais croix of elegance that the modern ones don't and I think for him it's that elegance that purity that simplicity he's fascinated by it.

Speaker 11 It goes back to the idea of taste which is assumed to be

Speaker 11 non-negotiable, that this is an absolute quality and that it was manifest in its purest form in antiquity so no modern production can match the taste of the ancients and so, you can simply try and,

Speaker 11 well, some people felt that they might be able to improve upon it, but it's this idea that there's this ideal that if English manufacturers can copy it, it will improve their taste.

Speaker 11 And this is the constant refrain to improve the taste of British manufacturers. And he's a member of the Royal Society for Promotion of Arts and Manufactures, the Society of Arts.

Speaker 11 So, he goes out to Naples already with this in his head. And it's also a means for himself to establish a reputation as a man of taste, as a younger son in a rather inferior diplomatic posting.

Speaker 12 This is Bethany Frankl from Just Be with Bethany Frankl. Here's my summer tip: don't overthink your dogs' meals.

Speaker 12 My pups love just fresh from just food for dogs, complete, balanced, fresh, shelf-stable meals that go everywhere from New York City to weekends in the Hamptons.

Speaker 12 I mean, you can have real food ready to go for your pup anywhere. No cooler, no hassle, just grab and go.
I've seen the difference. Healthier coats, more energy, tails wagging at mealtime.

Speaker 12 Biggie and smalls love it, and I'm all about stuff that just makes sense when life is busy. Go to justfoodfordogs.com and get 50% off your first order right now.
No code needed.

Speaker 5 Want to stop engine problems before they start? Pick up a can of C-Foam motor treatment. C-Foam helps engines start easier, run smoother, and last longer.

Speaker 7 Trusted by millions every day, C-Foam is safe and easy to use in any engine.

Speaker 5 Just pour it in your fuel tank.

Speaker 5 Make the proven choice with C-Foam.

Speaker 7 Available everywhere.

Speaker 8 Automotive products are sold.

Speaker 8 Seafoam!

Speaker 2 With the Wealthfront Cash Account, you can earn 4% annual percentage yield from partner banks on your cash until you're ready to invest.

Speaker 2 The cash account grows your money with no account maintenance fees and free instant withdrawals whenever you need it. Money works better here.

Speaker 2 Go to WealthFront.com to to start saving and investing today. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC member FINRA SIPC.
Wealthfront is not a bank.

Speaker 2 The APY on cash deposits as of December 27, 2024 is representative, subject to change and requires no minimum. Funds in the cash account are swept to partner banks where they earn the variable APY.

Speaker 13 Ready to take advantage of an incredible deal at Mazda? September is the final month of eligibility for federal $7,500 electric vehicle lease cash on the new Mazda CX70 and CX90 plug-in hybrid.

Speaker 13 All Mazda current inventory is unaffected by new tariffs. See your local Mazda dealer for details.
$7,500 electric vehicle lease cash offer expires at the end of September. Don't miss out!

Speaker 13 $7,500 lease customer cash good toward 2025 CX70 PHEV and CX90 PHEV when leasing through Mazda Financial Services.

Speaker 13 Lease customer cash can be combined with other public offers, including lease incentive offers. Lease customer cash cannot be combined with APR or other customer cash offers.

Speaker 13 Lease customer cash is not redeemable as cash or cash back option. Lease customer cash is only available on approved credit.
Not all customers will qualify for credit approval or offer.

Speaker 13 Limit one discount per customer per vehicle.

Speaker 13 Lease customer cash offer only available in united states regardless of buyer's residency void were prohibited apply within the lease structure as a capital cost reduction lease customer cash is only available on participating mazda dealer's current inventory which is subject to availability offer ends 930 2025 and you must take delivery prior to expiration of offer see participating mazda dealer for complete details

Speaker 4 Rui, while we're with you and while we're on the subject of someone taking up the idea and reproducing it, that brings us straight to Josiah Wedgwood. It does.

Speaker 4 Can you tell the listener who he was and what he did?

Speaker 11 Well, Josiah Wedgwood, I feel a bit bad talking about Josiah Wedgwood, a Jenny sitting right next to me, but he was a. Jenny can join in.

Speaker 4 I can.

Speaker 11 He was one of the leading potters of the mid-18th century.

Speaker 11 And in the 1760s, he's already made a significant name for himself with a production of creamware, which was this very fine ovenware with a very, very pale cream glaze, and which was wildly popular.

Speaker 11 And he

Speaker 11 was given by Lord Cafcot, who was Hamilton's brother-in-law and ambassador to Russia, he was given a sort of advance access to the Hamilton's publication, the Antiqueté Étrusque Créqué Romain, which he immediately realised could provide extraordinary models for his vases.

Speaker 11 He was already producing vases because they were popular anyway. People like having a vase on the mantelpiece or in their library, so he already had a nice line in vases.

Speaker 11 But he realised that the designs could instigate a completely new line of vases in imitation of the ancients.

Speaker 11 And he already had his black basalt ovenware, which he had perfected using the clay that had got carbon in it from the coal in the

Speaker 11 so it was this black clay. And then he developed the method of encaustic painting, which he claimed had been lost since the time of Pliny, and he had reinvented it.

Speaker 11 So he starts producing these vases in imitation of what were then believed to be Etruscans,

Speaker 11 which slightly complicates the story about the Greek revival because a lot of people thought they were Etruscan, but never mind. So they were called Etruscan vases.

Speaker 4 It does matter. It does matter.

Speaker 4 So when Hamilton was collecting...

Speaker 11 When Hamilton was collecting the vases, they were known as Etruscan vases because there was a very strong sort of, well, not quite nationalist movement, but

Speaker 11 it was known that before the Romans became established, they displaced a people called the Etruscans. And it was believed that civilization had

Speaker 11 travelled from Egypt to the Etruscans to the Greeks, so they were this pivotal stage in the movement of civilization. And there was a lot of

Speaker 11 kudos to Italy in establishing the superiority of Etruscan art, and particularly in the Kingdom of Tuscany. The dukes of Tuscany were very keen to establish the superiority of Etruscan art.

Speaker 4 Do you want want to come here, Jenny?

Speaker 10 Yes, it's lovely hearing this discussion, this sort of wedged coming out of that whole

Speaker 10 interest.

Speaker 10 And he certainly thought they were Etruscan, so that when he opens his brand new factory in 1769, he calls it Etruria.

Speaker 10 And he threw six of these Etruscan vases with their red and caustic design, one of them copied straight from Hamilton's book, and on the back of it it writes the Etruscan Arts Reborn.

Speaker 10 So he, as a manufacturer, is laying, as it were, laying claim to be able to deliver Etruria to the

Speaker 10 Etruscan, to the British people.

Speaker 11 So if there was this sort of double think going on that people like Hamilton certainly understood them to be Greek by the time he's publishing, he'd realize that some of the vases actually have inscriptions on them in Greek.

Speaker 11 So it was suspected that we're Greek. And Hamilton was also, well, over the 1760s, 1770s, increasing reports came back from Greece of similar vases that had been identified in Greece.

Speaker 11 So it becomes known that they're Greek, but they're always called Etruscan vases. And so there's this, we know they're Greek, but they're called Etruscan.

Speaker 4 Jenny.

Speaker 10 Yes, I think Hamilton kept trying to correct this.

Speaker 10 But Wedgwood, too,

Speaker 10 is an enthusiast like Hamilton. I mean he is not just a cool manufacturer, he's the kind of heated manufacturer.
So part of his aim, he's tremendously excited, is to actually beat France.

Speaker 10 France already has le gougrec. Now he can give Britain

Speaker 10 Greek taste. Greek taste, yes.
And so um he makes these exclusive uh reproductions first of all for the grand and good.

Speaker 10 And he has a showroom in London uh where the walls are painted in beautiful colours, yellows, blacks and so on.

Speaker 10 So the vases stand around them and it's very smart to go and visit his shop and to purchase a vase. But then after a while he says the great in their palaces have had these, right?

Speaker 10 And in fact you can see he's thinking that market's running out.

Speaker 10 So he starts reproducing slightly cheaper versions for the middling classes and he sells whole sets of vases right to the end of the century.

Speaker 10 After, you know, a few years after Wedgwood dies in the 1790s, these vases are still going out.

Speaker 9 Yeah, so by

Speaker 9 1772, he has over a hundred vases in production. So, I think, just in terms of knowing that if you've got one, you might, you know, you're going to want the next 99 in the series.

Speaker 9 But it's really interesting, he says that he wants to become the vase maker general to the universe, which is so modest, really, that he's going to come out and just do this for the whole universe.

Speaker 9 But there is something I think really key here about wanting to put himself on top and not just surpass Europe, but also surpass the ancients, right?

Speaker 9 He's trying to recreate and reinvent the antique, and he's very interested in the spirit of antiquity. But there are also these kind of commercial gains.

Speaker 9 So, for example, with the encaustic method, he patents that as soon as it's done. So, it's really kind of showing what he can do and what he's achieved as well to the masses.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 following that,

Speaker 10 when Hamilton sells his collection, first of all, to the British Museum, he sells it for £8,400, which is an enormous sum in those days.

Speaker 10 And Wedgwood says, Oh, I think we've made three times as much from selling the copies. So, you know, it's a big, big business deal.

Speaker 4 Can you go into a bit more detail about Wedgwood's technique and his resources? Obviously, they're going to have to be very good, his losses, aren't they?

Speaker 4 We're not talking about knocking something off in the back of his head. No.
So, what resources did he have?

Speaker 9 He has huge resources. When he built Etruria in the end of the 1760s, it's a purpose-built factory.
So, he has a huge kind of team behind him. And he is also sending things to be decorated in London.

Speaker 9 He has London decorating studios and he also has London selling studios. So, he has this showroom.

Speaker 9 So, you can come to the factory and see the sort of nitty-gritty slightly dirty day-to-day life in the factory but you can also go to the very pretty London showroom and see this.

Speaker 9 With the encaustic technique he is very clever.

Speaker 4 Can you unravel encaustic again?

Speaker 9 Yes absolutely. So

Speaker 9 he is very clever.

Speaker 9 He basically mixes together enamels with vitriol of iron, oxides, bronze powder and he adds a little bit of slip which is clay mixed with water and he very thinly paints it onto the vase and then that is fired.

Speaker 9 So it gives this appearance of red, kind of black ancient Greek vases.

Speaker 4 Red or black or red and black.

Speaker 9 Red and black and orange as well he adds in different colours and so it's very costly, very expensive and this is one of the issues.

Speaker 9 He actually writes about the fact that he wants to sell these Etruscan vases but that sometimes he calls them Greek vases, you know, he's quite interchangeable, but that they are expensive.

Speaker 9 But he's trying to replicate what he sees in Hamilton's books, but he does it slightly differently. So several of the ones in Hamilton's publication are huge and he recreates them in half the size.

Speaker 9 So he doesn't always follow everything exactly.

Speaker 4 Let's talk about authenticity for a moment. Rui, would you like to start that?

Speaker 4 What did people think they were buying when they were buying a Wedgwood vase that looked like the vase that had come from Etruria?

Speaker 11 I think they thought they were buying a modern product in the best classical taste.

Speaker 11 Nobody thought that they were buying an ancient vase.

Speaker 4 Why did they think it was so valuable?

Speaker 11 I mean, They weren't paying the amount they'd be paying for a genuine ancient vase.

Speaker 11 The vases that Wedgwood was selling were a matter of guineas, whereas

Speaker 11 the best ones were. And if you were buying an ancient vase in Italy, you'd be paying a lot more.

Speaker 11 So people thought they were getting the finest modern product, which was created in the finest classical taste. And they were aware that it wasn't an original.

Speaker 11 And you've read letters from particularly aristocratic patrons, because these are are the ones that tend to survive, about the vases they want made for their libraries.

Speaker 11 Where they say, Well, I only want the images on the front because nobody will see the back, so there's no point. So, can you

Speaker 11 get the cost down a bit?

Speaker 11 And they would choose the design from the Hamilton volume that they wanted reproduce on the vase.

Speaker 11 So, they were under no illusion that they were buying something classical, but they were they very firmly believed that this was for the finest taste, and that the fact that they appreciated it again was a demonstration of their taste.

Speaker 10 And then they moved, don't they, from the black with the red to what we think of really as a wedgwood vase, which is the blue jasper with wonderful

Speaker 10 sort of base relief. And that's a technique of the white story, the flowing draperies, the chariots and everything all going round the vase.

Speaker 10 And that's a technique that's always really intrigued me, isn't it? It's sort of sprigging, it's called, where you make a mould and then tiny bits of white are attached with the slip clay.

Speaker 10 But you probably know more about the technique.

Speaker 9 Yeah, so Wedgwood does thousands and thousands of trials to perfect his Jasperware.

Speaker 9 He also invents something called a pyrometer, which is a specifically like a thermometer to check the temperature of the kiln.

Speaker 9 Gets him into the Royal Society because he invents this to really perfect things.

Speaker 9 What I think is so interesting is he's constantly going back to the ancient traditions to revive them, but he's doing it with the most up-to-date ceramic technology that he has at his disposal in the 18th century.

Speaker 9 I think that Juxtaposition is really, really interesting.

Speaker 10 And really good artists, too, and designers.

Speaker 10 That's a key.

Speaker 11 But again, he had an ancient model for his Jasperware, too, with a Barberini vase.

Speaker 11 I mean, he was developing the Jasperware before the Barberini vase came to England, but it's clearly, I mean, he clearly copies it and produces reproductions.

Speaker 4 I'm not sure what the Barberini vase. What the Barberini vase is?

Speaker 11 The Barberini vase was actually a Roman vase, it wasn't a Greek vase, and it was made of cobalt blue glass with an opaque white motif

Speaker 11 fixed onto it in a similar way to jasperware, but

Speaker 11 it's not made of urbanware, as jasperware was, it's glass. And the motif was a, well, nobody's quite sure what it depicts, but it's a kind of ancient some ritual scene.

Speaker 11 And it had been discovered in the late 16th century outside Rome and had been

Speaker 11 much admired by collectors through the 17th and the 18th century. It was one of the sites of Rome.
You'd go and see the Barberini vase, belonged to the Barberini family, not surprisingly.

Speaker 11 And then it was acquired by a Scottish dealer, James Byers, who sold it to Hamilton.

Speaker 11 who thought that he would be able to sell it at a vast profit when he goes back to England on one of his periodic visits.

Speaker 11 So he returns in 1783 and manages to sell it to the Duchess of Portland, who was a great collector and a great patron of of the arts. And sadly, she only lives to enjoy it for a year.

Speaker 11 And then it's sold with her goods

Speaker 11 after she dies and bought by the fourth Duke of Portland, who actually puts it in the British Museum on loan where it can be admired. So it...

Speaker 11 because of the publicity around the sale it becomes well known in Britain even for people who've never been to Italy and it is staggeringly beautiful. Unfortunately it was smashed in 1840 by

Speaker 11 somebody

Speaker 11 who was drunk and probably had mental health issues. He went to the British Museum and smashed it, but it has been put together again.
But it's absolutely amazing, and

Speaker 11 it was one of these works of art which is really well known, widely reproduced in prints. And Wedgwood, of course, capitalised on that to produce a Jasper version for the market.

Speaker 4 Caroline, we've been talking about the middle classes. Now, can you give us some idea of where that is on the snobbery notch in this country?

Speaker 4 These middle classes, I remember in the 16ths, 1700, they're always rising, aren't they? What were they doing this time?

Speaker 9 They were always rising, yeah. That's a really good way of thinking about it.

Speaker 9 I think someone like Wedgwood is aware that he needs to suit not only the market and the tastes of his elite patrons, but also he talks one point about needing to suit the purses of his purchasers.

Speaker 9 So he's really aware that there is this growing middle market who are perhaps not able to afford the best of the best or you know hundreds of vases but might afford one and have that on their mantelpiece.

Speaker 9 So there is a real sense that at this point there are more and more kind of middle classes moving towards neoclassicism, whether that's having furniture that's done in a slightly Greek revival style or something else more than that.

Speaker 4 Just to keep going with this for a second, if you had one or two of those vases, when people came into your room, did they automatically think or of course keep it to themselves, oh, here's someone with great taste, I must get one of those.

Speaker 4 Is that what was going on?

Speaker 9 I think so. And I think it's also a moment of demonstrating that you were part of the crowd, that you understood, and then you could say, oh, well, that's a lovely apotheosis of Homer.
Oh, how lovely.

Speaker 9 Oh, yes. Well, oh, have you seen my Adam-style chairs that have just appeared, or my Matthew Bolton silverware that's just appeared from Birmingham?

Speaker 9 So I think there's also this sociability that comes with this, particularly bringing back to earlier points, if you cannot travel and do the grand tour, or if you've done that and you've come home and you're back to the plodding along the daily life, what do you want to think about?

Speaker 9 You want to think about ancient Rome and Greece through these objects.

Speaker 10 Yes, and then a slightly different thing happens, doesn't it? Which is that people lose interest in

Speaker 10 the purity of the Greek, but they adore the style. They love these wafting draperies and lyres and things.
So that Edgard has designers who will,

Speaker 10 well, even like flaxmen, you know, who produce sort of friezes of muses with floating drapery,

Speaker 10 and many women designers who produce

Speaker 10 the Greek vase style thing of children playing and so on, so that it becomes a slightly different taste, and that's very middling class, I think.

Speaker 11 And it's very multimedia, too.

Speaker 11 I mean, it's not we've been talking about it in terms of vases, but we find the motifs from the vases being lifted by people like Henry Clay of Birmingham and making lots of papier maché trays and snuff boxes and tea caddies and tables with these decorations that are again lifted from Hamilton's volumes of designs because obviously they've had to be transposed into a two-dimensional flat image for purposes of publication and these lend themselves to being copied and reproduced in all sorts of other formats.

Speaker 4 How far down the class picking order did this go? We talked about the aristocrats or a little and the middle class a little. Did it sink further into ordinary people or what was going on?

Speaker 11 I very much doubt it unless somebody fell on very hard times.

Speaker 11 I mean this is one of the things about the 18th century that you could be prosperous and middling sort whilst you're earning a living, but then if you become old and no longer able to work, you might end up in the

Speaker 11 workhouse and then you're there'll be an inventory of your goods taken, a pauper inventory as it's known. But I'd never seen anything like that in a pauper inventory.

Speaker 10 No, I love this idea that it it just spreads out and it gets spread into we're thinking of Birmingham to the lacquer work. They made these lacquer trays and things.

Speaker 10 And now now, in Mary Barton, Elizabeth Gaskell's novel, the 1830s, of artisan workers who are going to fall on hard times, the one precious thing that they have is this lacquered tray.

Speaker 10 We don't know what the designer, maybe it was, you know, Wedgwood mythic

Speaker 10 or Hamilton's

Speaker 10 classical design.

Speaker 9 I think the other thing is, even if you couldn't afford these objects, you could go and see them.

Speaker 9 So, for example, bringing it back to Wedgwood in the Portland vase, when he perfects it he spends over five years trying to recreate it and when he manages to he puts it on show as a ticketed event in his showroom in Greek Street in Soho and he sells 2,000 tickets for people to come and see this vase.

Speaker 9 So even if you can't afford it, maybe you and you would never be able to have that in your home, you might still be able to go in and just get a glimpse of what Wedgwood has achieved.

Speaker 9 So I think there's also it's not there's consumption through actually having these objects, but also being surrounded by the vas Munia as well.

Speaker 4 Like a painting in a gallery.

Speaker 9 Absolutely, yeah, he's tapped in to the market completely.

Speaker 11 Well, and of the displays of his showrooms that people could, I mean, the whole point was the showroom had big glass windows that you could look in, so people could see these things on sale.

Speaker 11 Window shopping, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 You've talked about the Portland vase a lot. Can we just stick with it for a bit longer?

Speaker 4 Carline,

Speaker 4 what legacy did Wedgwood leave? Let's talk about the Portland vase, but other things that he made as well.

Speaker 9 Oh, a huge legacy. And actually, on that note, the V ⁇ A Wedgwood collection has just celebrated its 10th anniversary this year of the Wedgwood Museum being saved for the nation.

Speaker 9 And the factory still exists today. If you go to Barleston, the Wedgwood factory still exists.
I think with the Portland vase in particular, he really showed that he knew exactly what he was doing.

Speaker 9 At times, he's reinventing or innovating the antique. The Portland vase, he wants to completely recreate it.

Speaker 9 So for several centuries, since it's really discovered, people weren't sure what it was made of. They thought it was onyx or agate or porcelain.

Speaker 9 It's really only in the 18th century they go, actually, this is glass. And he goes, right, well, I've made this, perfected this very particular type of ceramic.

Speaker 9 There's no predecessor from my Jasperware. I'm going to make the most famous vase in this material.
And he does it.

Speaker 9 And he has a subscription list of people who subscribe to the first edition of the Portland vase. He has it on his showroom in London.

Speaker 9 He also sends his son and someone else from the factory on a little grand tour themselves across Europe to show off people this Portland vase so they can then buy it.

Speaker 9 So we find their names in all of these guest books dotted around these palaces in Europe where they're bringing his kind of spoils, as it were.

Speaker 9 So he is absolutely a businessman at heart and I think he really crafts a very careful identity and legacy for himself with the Portland vase.

Speaker 4 Did the fact that he was a businessman not only encourage his business, but depict a new sort of person

Speaker 4 in the game, in the art game?

Speaker 9 Definitely, yeah. I think he really manages to carve out a position for himself as an industrial person.

Speaker 9 You know, he's a potter, he has smallpox when he's a kid, so he ends up having his leg amputated later in life, so he can't be a thrower, he can't spend his whole life making pots, so he has to manage a huge business which will make pots for for him.

Speaker 9 So, I think there's something very interesting about what he does.

Speaker 11 But we haven't mentioned Thomas Bentley, and I think he's an important part of the story because this is his partner in the business, who's a merchant in Liverpool, who had been on the grant or who did have a classical education and who was comfortable hobnobbing with the aristocracy.

Speaker 11 It's through Bentley that he gets the introductions to people like Cathcott and Hamilton and Liston and Ainsley ambassadors, and that's crucial for the export of wedged Wedgwoodware.

Speaker 11 And it's through Bentley that he has the entree to the more aristocratic circles, because Bentley is down in London and sort of glad-handing the members of nobility and the gentry and smoothing the way and handling the sort of public-facing side of things, whereas Wedgwood is the technician, the administrator, the businessman, the inventor handling things in Etroria.

Speaker 4 Can we talk about the part that is played by the introduction or the invention even of the British Museum?

Speaker 11 We can.

Speaker 11 So the British Museum was founded, well, established 1753, opened to the public 1759, with Hans Sloane's collection, which didn't contain one or two vases, but it was mostly curiosities.

Speaker 11 Hans Sloane, the great

Speaker 11 scientist and botanist of the early 18th century. And his collection was really about the natural and manufactured productions of the world.

Speaker 11 So a lot of natural curiosities, but also man-made curiosities.

Speaker 11 And that's what the museum opened with and when Hamilton sold his vases to the British Museum this was the first major acquisition of ancient art and it really set a pattern it was a real precedent it was a real precedent setting because after that the British Museum then acquired a whole succession of other collections like the Towney Collection of Sculpture the Rurosetta Stone the Frieze from Bassai which was brought back in the early 19th century the Elgin marbles the obvious example and its trustees saw themselves as the guardians of an institution that provided the finest examples of art and civilization.

Speaker 11 And so it was principally classical antiquities that they wanted to preserve, and those from Greece and Rome. They were not interested in classical antiquities from Britain.

Speaker 11 So Romano-British antiquities, Anglo-Saxon antiquities, they refused to buy those to the chagrin of lots of English antiquaries who thought this was disgraceful.

Speaker 11 But it was very much, this is the seat of civilisation.

Speaker 11 London, Britain is the heir to the greatest civilisation, the greatest empire of the ancient world, and so we're going to host, preserve the Elgin marbles and the Hamilton vases.

Speaker 9 Interestingly, though, and Hamilton complains about this

Speaker 9 in his correspondence, they don't put his vase collection on display quickly enough.

Speaker 9 So, we actually have correspondence between him and Wedgwood where he complains, well, don't bother going to London to see them because they're not on display yet, which is quite interesting.

Speaker 9 But at the same time, Wedgwood gives one of his vases to the British Museum as well as a sort of, and he tells Hamilton this in a letter.

Speaker 9 So there's this real connection between the two of them, but also this idea that the museum is this sort of epigee, you know, sort of the apex of cultural capital at this point as well, which is really quite interesting.

Speaker 4 Is Wedgwood trying to spread the idea of Basmania?

Speaker 10 Wedgwood manages to make it peak really, really quite fast by the early 1770s. And after that, as Caroline said,

Speaker 10 he has his production line and he has his markets and he sells them vases.

Speaker 10 So I think he feels he's done his bit.

Speaker 10 He's not pushing vase mania as a classicist.

Speaker 10 He's working on an already existing sense of wanting to be part of that ideal.

Speaker 10 But what he is, commercial though he is, is absolutely in love with the technique. I mean, as a technician, with the body of the vases, with the technique.

Speaker 10 So that when you're talking about the Portland vase, it's a cameo on the glass with very delicate layers of shading.

Speaker 10 And he spends years working out different ways that you can just cut to make it perfect. So he's a commercial, but he understands what

Speaker 10 was saying about

Speaker 10 this being some way an ideal, that you're you're reaching for an ideal as well and that pursuit of commerce and art are not indivisible you can have both

Speaker 11 it's this ideal of the pursuit of perfection isn't it that he really wants to achieve and it's worth all the time he puts into it I mean he's an obsessive in that respect isn't he yes did he ever lapse did he ever pause did he was he ever overtaken did the vase mania go out of fashion well I mean all manias go out of fashion and but I think vases remain very popular throughout the 18th and into the early 19th century.

Speaker 11 And the Greek taste becomes probably at its peak in the early 19th century in terms of the Greek revival in architecture and the Greek style of dress.

Speaker 11 And the models for all those sort of Greek-style dresses that Jane Austen heroines are depicted as wearing. I mean, those come from the vases.

Speaker 11 There weren't any other visual sources for ancient Greece.

Speaker 11 So this is one of a really fascinating thing about the vases, that it appears they appear to well the vases that Hamilton discovered rather than ones that Wedgwood made, they appear to provide evidence of Greek society before there were written records and for which there were barely any visual records apart from friezes and sculptures.

Speaker 11 So that was a lot of interest and discussion about them in the early 19th century.

Speaker 11 And it's really only with when the Gothic revival really starts to gather momentum from the 1830s, 1840s, I think that it gets displaced and tastes shift again.

Speaker 4 Jenny.

Speaker 10 I think that's lovely what you said about the Jane Austen dresses, because actually

Speaker 10 if we think of the decoration of the vases, one of the reasons for their appeal is that they're very sexy.

Speaker 10 There are a lot of nudes, but there are also many women in these amazing diaphanous materials which get copied, don't they, in high society in balls, so that people appear wearing almost transparent clothing.

Speaker 11 They dampen it to make it cling to their body. To make it cling.

Speaker 10 So that the vases, pure and ideal as they are, also have this sexy sort of titillating edge to them as well. So when people are looking at them to see what's happening on the vase,

Speaker 10 they can tell sorts of stories or they can talk to each other and

Speaker 10 they have entertainment value as well as beauty.

Speaker 11 But Wedgwood does tone them down, doesn't he? I mean, he does cover up some of the bare buttocks.

Speaker 11 Not all of the elements get reproduced. The more phallic imagery stays off.

Speaker 4 We've talked about Wedgewood a great deal, given the length of this programme. Was there anybody else working as he did in Britain? And was Britain ahead of the game in this? Where were we?

Speaker 9 I think in terms of vases, but also things like cameo fever, kind of just generally neoclassical design, people like Chippendale, Robert Adam, James Tassie.

Speaker 9 I mean, Tassie actually does the first casts of the Portland vase, and he's creating, you know,

Speaker 9 glass cameo pastes and sends thousands of them off to Catherine the Great in Russia along with vases and things.

Speaker 9 So I think there are lots of the people in England, but I think Wedgwood does a sort of does dominate in many respects. And I think the thing that he also does is he dominates across the world.

Speaker 9 It's global.

Speaker 9 It's not just, he's very much feeding into and kind of creating this consumer market in Britain, but he is also, people want wedgwood everywhere, and he is very quick to tap into that with setting that up on an international market, which is really, really important, I think, for why he kind of usurps his competitors.

Speaker 10 I was thinking that the vase mania does last all his lifetime until he dies. So he would feel vase maker to

Speaker 10 the universe or

Speaker 10 the cosmos, really.

Speaker 10 And this was a very sort of special badge that he had. It wasn't just the money he made, it was to identify with taste.

Speaker 4 Let's switch now to poetry. Let's talk about Keats's poems.

Speaker 10 Well, that's, yes, Keats' Ode on a Grecian Urn. And that is what Rowan was saying about the early 19th century, really.
This is 1820.

Speaker 10 And it is extraordinary because I think when you read it, and not to be literally critical about it, but when you read it, it is somebody looking, looking, looking at a vase.

Speaker 10 You know, he's thou still unravished bride of quietness, thy foster child of silence and old time. So he's taking you back into the past.
Attic shape.

Speaker 10 Yes, attic shape or attitude. So the shape is beautiful.

Speaker 10 But also he calls the vase

Speaker 10 a sylvan historian so that what we've been talking about, the decoration, telling him a story of a procession coming from a little town, a boy piping, and that's, you know,

Speaker 10 heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard are sweeter. So that you can never reach, you follow this story round, and he says, what little town have you left desolate and quiet?

Speaker 10 And it always will be desolate and quiet. Look at the leaves on the trees.
Those leaves will never fall.

Speaker 10 There's the lover chasing his love,

Speaker 10 but he will never manage to kiss her. It's just a complete moment, a total world held and suspended in time.

Speaker 10 And you can look at it, but it's always going to be a mystery, but you can't recapture it. And that is what art, great art, this does within the purity of form.

Speaker 10 It's the whole of sort of human longing, desire, and everything, held in just one moment. And then it's the vase that sends to us at the end, beauty is truth, truth, beauty.

Speaker 4 That is all you know.

Speaker 10 And all you need to know.

Speaker 4 Well, that was fascinating.

Speaker 4 Thank you very much. Thank you, Janie Huglow, Caroline McCaffrey Haar, and Rosemary Sweet.
Next week, the surprising world believe this a slime mold.

Speaker 4 How an organism without a brain can find its way around a maze and may even help to treat cancer. Thank you for listening.

Speaker 9 And the In Our Time podcast gets some extra time now with a a few minutes of bonus material from Melvin and his guests.

Speaker 4 Starting with you, Jenny, what didn't you have time to say that you wish you had had time to say?

Speaker 10 I think that one of the things that interests me is how people at the time, in the second half of the 18th century, are so fascinated, not just with particular Greek or Roman culture, but with

Speaker 10 big histories. It's as if the history of the earth itself, you know, they're finding out about geology, they're defying the Bible, the history of electricity.

Speaker 10 Analyses of things are called a history, so that

Speaker 10 I think Hamilton going up Vesuvius and seeing this boiling up from the bowels of the earth

Speaker 10 is a kind of parallel in a way to the unearthing of the vase, is that you're discovering things about the past which will help you identify who you are and where we are now.

Speaker 11 I guess we could have talked a bit more about Hamilton.

Speaker 11 We spent an awful lot of time on Wedgwood and what I think interesting is the way in which Hamilton saw the commercial opportunities if you like of the vases from the start that he made this collection because he was a compulsive collector.

Speaker 11 Clearly he was because he started another collection which he also tried to sell to a British Museum later in life.

Speaker 11 And so it was that compulsion there but he knew that he could sell it and he needed to make money because he he was a younger son.

Speaker 11 He didn't have much of a private income, only a small amount from his wife's Welsh estates. And he was living an extremely expensive lifestyle as a British plenipotentiary.

Speaker 11 And you don't get paid well.

Speaker 11 He got eight quid a day and had to entertain all these endless young men who wanted to be looked after and had to appear at court suitably dressed to represent the British state.

Speaker 11 So he's always skinned. He was always in debt.

Speaker 11 And the vases were a means of establishing his social capital and cultural capital as a young man who hadn't been to university, didn't have the kind of classical learning that a lot of his peers did, and didn't have the

Speaker 11 land and wealth to give him social status. So it gave him social and cultural capital, but it was also an economic investment.

Speaker 11 And I think that's one of the really interesting aspects to his vase collection. It wasn't simply about displaying his taste and being a great patron.
There was a very pragmatic reason for it as well.

Speaker 4 He said something wonderful about how to live a life, didn't he?

Speaker 11 Get through life tolerably is always to have something.

Speaker 4 I have to look it up, you don't. That's right.

Speaker 4 The whole art of life, going through life tolerably, in my opinion, is this is him

Speaker 4 to keep oneself eager about anything. Yeah, that's good, isn't it?

Speaker 11 Yes, and so that's why he was up and down the volcanoes and why he was, and he was also really interested in Pompeii, and it's that his initiative that the Temple of Isis is actually properly excavated rather than just bits put out and put on display in the

Speaker 11 King's Museum, and then everything shovelled back in again.

Speaker 11 Because the Neapolitan kings were interested in excavating it, they just wanted to get fine specimens out to put on display in their museum and capitalise on that.

Speaker 11 And if they find a duplicate, they smashed it because it reduced the unique quality of their own collection. So, Hamilton had a big role to play in Pompeii as well.

Speaker 4 What about you, Carlo?

Speaker 9 Just what you were saying there is very interesting, particularly in terms of the fact that he sort of loses control a bit with the publication of that kind of key Hamilton publication. It's,

Speaker 9 you know, four huge folio volumes, and Baron Dunkerville kind of takes over by the end. That's, you know, you can sort of see him moving on to something else.

Speaker 9 I suppose for me, I did maybe want to mention the with the Society of Dilettante, we have these two fantastic group ensemble portraits, which were done by Joshua Reynolds in the 1770s, that people say one of them was sort of to capture Hamilton joining the society.

Speaker 9 So they're looking at Hamilton's publication on the table, and there's a Greek amphora vase in front of them as well.

Speaker 9 But I love this painting because it's got them all there, very studious, looking at this vase, celebrating Hamilton, you know, preservation of antiquity, classical era, etc., etc.

Speaker 9 And then one of the, they're drinking and, you know, discussing, and then one of the participants is holding up a lady's garter, we assume, and looking directly at the viewer.

Speaker 9 And there's a sort of like wink, right? A cheeky wink. And for me, that kind of sums up so much of what we're dealing with here.

Speaker 9 Yes, we're dealing with class and being very proper and educated and money and wealth, but we're also dealing with a very particular rhetoric that is coming here.

Speaker 9 And Reynolds himself was a member of the Society of Dilettante.

Speaker 9 So, you know, it's a sort of tongue-in-cheek moment, but I just wanted to make sure I mentioned that because I absolutely love society was notorious for its libertinism. Exactly.

Speaker 11 And then there was the whole cult of Isonia into the antiquities of Isonia. Yes.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 9 Biotus, really.

Speaker 10 But that reminds me, but sadly, more earnest level, that Benjamin West painted this grand painting, doesn't he, of British manufacture?

Speaker 10 And in the middle, it has sort of classically dressed women

Speaker 10 plinth, but in the middle on the plinth, representing the whole of British manufacture is an urn is a vase so well let's end

Speaker 4 thank you all very much thank you thank you

Speaker 4 I enjoyed that yeah it's great me too thank you I really enjoyed it would you like tea or coffee Marvin uh see what I mean and come in the side of sale just go uh I think I'll have uh tea tea thank you and Caroline I'd love a cup of tea please thank you

Speaker 10 I'm okay I think thanks tea would be lovely thank you.

Speaker 10 Three teas.

Speaker 14 how ancient wisdom and practices from other cultures can help us understand and maybe even improve our lives.

Speaker 14 I'll be learning about the Mexican Day of the Dead, the Japanese tradition of kensugi, South African Ubuntu philosophy, and many more.

Speaker 14 Don't miss Something to Declare from BBC Radio 4, available now on BBC Sounds.

Speaker 5 Want to stop engine problems before they start? Pick up a can of C-Foam Motor Treatment. C-Foam helps engines start easier, run smoother, and last longer.

Speaker 7 Trusted by millions every day, C-Foam is safe and easy to use in any engine.

Speaker 5 Just pour it in your fuel tank.

Speaker 5 Make the proven choice with C-Foam.

Speaker 8 Available everywhere, automotive products are sold.

Speaker 8 Seafoam!