120: The monk's discovery

In the UK, who were the intended users of an app called Tudder?

The answer to that at the end of the show.

My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral.

Welcome to the show, and you join us at a landmark event, as the producer's word document for all these scripts is about to reach the 300,000 word mark.

And we are all wondering if it's going to crash before we can finish the recording put it this way if i stop speaking then you know

here to troll through the backup directories of their mind first of all we have returning to the show matt gray welcome hello thank you for having me back i'm glad i didn't disgrace myself the first time

not uh not in a metaphorical sense or in a literal sense exactly i'm always wondering what to introduce you as because i've known you for so long and over so many things what what are you right now matt

yeah start off with something very existential to work yeah why not what is a matt gray well i i split my time between making youtube videos and doing broadcast engineering fixing radio stations and tv stations but the best place for you you all to find me is on the internet on the youtube where i'm making stuff with electronics 3d printing or having a nosy around people having their cool jobs now it was your first episode of lateral last time how did you feel about it it's so much like i've listened to a few of these episodes and it's much more different when you're in the line of fire rather than yelling at your car radio.

Well, very best of luck to you on your second show.

We are also joined by a player back for their second time, Izzy Lawrence, comedian, broadcaster, writer of children's historical fiction.

How did you find the show last time?

I found it amazing.

I thought I was much more educated than I realised.

I was surprised about how clever I was.

I can only go downhill, is what I'm saying.

I'm setting the expectations low.

If you want to hear me sounding clever, listen to the last episode.

I was very good.

I'm sure that you won't disgrace yourself as

any more than I did last time.

Thanks, Carl.

I was going to say any more than Matt didn't.

And then it sort of got away from me.

That shovel is digging.

Well done.

Yeah.

I'm the third member of the panel.

Also back for the second show.

We have fashion and cultural historian, author, and from her own YouTube channel, Abby Cox.

Hello.

I'm so happy to be back.

And embarrassing myself some more.

Do you find that people expect you to be very fashionable because you are, you know, fashion historian?

I think so.

And so like, I always try to like show out to a certain degree, like, especially when I'm filming.

But as a full-time YouTuber, I exist in leggings and sweatshirts.

And like, I look like, like.

a menace, like a gremlin 95% of the time.

I'm like, shower, what's that?

Like, the edit zone has to be the comfy zone, doesn't it?

Yeah.

Like, if I'm not looking like a sack of potatoes, like what am I actually like doing?

Well, I'm working.

That's what I really like here is the big detailed intros that those two got.

And I got what is Matt?

You know why that was Matt?

It's because as I went into the introduction, I realized that I accidentally misplaced the script with all the notes on the floor.

I was like, who can I go to who won't mind that I missed the intro?

That's true.

That's, yeah, I'm glad I called that right.

Well, good luck to all of you today as we continue down the 300,000 plus words that have been in these scripts.

We will hammer Control-S desperately as we page down to question one.

Thank you to Danny from Cincinnati and Carlin Sembian for sending this question in.

10% of Anguilla's GDP now comes from a source that was not nearly as significant just a few years ago.

What is it?

I'll give you that one more time.

10% of Anguilla's GDP now comes from a source that was not nearly as significant just a few years ago.

What was it?

So I'm going to have to say I've heard of Anguilla.

I've also heard of Angola, and I'm pretty sure they must be different places.

They are, yes.

And I'd say it's giving Africa or South America.

I don't know which one.

What the audience at home did not hear is the brief two-minute break-in recording there where I had to ask producer David for a pronunciation guide for Anguilla.

And I just, I feel like I should have known that.

Does anyone else at least know what continent it's on?

It's not South.

I don't think it's South America.

I think it's Africa, but I don't know.

Yeah, I think it's Africa too.

It's actually a British overseas territory in the Caribbean.

Oh, of course it is.

Okay, okay.

No,

I'm an idiot.

I should have known that.

I'm glad that wasn't on me.

As in,

I've been reading that as Anguilla

for ages and therefore not...

And therefore, not connecting it to...

I would have guessed Angia or something like that and assumed it was a French colony or something like that.

It is Anguilla.

What can I say?

The British Empire has such a history of stealing places around the world that I've just lost count of hockey truck at the moment.

I mean, we did get some kits, you know, we got that off the French, I think.

Anyway,

I mean,

all of those.

So, I mean, the Caribbean's got a really sort of like amazing history, mostly based around tobacco and then later sugar.

And then, of course, what comes with the sugar, which is the transatlantic slave trade.

Here's a lovely thing to, you know,

warm the cockles first thing in the show.

Yeah.

So, fortunately that's stopped so it won't be that it will not be that you are correct

i think there's a caribbean island with 365 beaches one for every day of the year is that that might be ang that that's not anguilla that's that's antigua i'm just oh for goodness sake

that's also that's also caribbean isn't it it is also a caribbean which you can see why i'm you know i get confused uh forgive me for my at least my island listing in my head You know, at least I didn't say Anglesey.

That's got the beaches.

You just don't want to be on them.

Yeah, not 365 days.

Okay.

So is it, I imagine it's one of the smaller islands with a lot of forest, I'm thinking, rather than one of the larger ones with a lot of room for plantations and that sort of stuff.

I just had the most obscure concept

idea pop in my head, but I think it's really kind of dumb.

Go, go, go.

Go, go for it.

Where was the fire festival supposed to be held?

Oh.

Oh.

That's the festival that didn't happen because the organizers were just too cool to do admin.

I'm like, are people going there to like relive the fire festival?

Too fire, too furious.

Has this island had a recent discovery maybe?

So maybe it was a boring island and therefore it's got increased tourist industry because of a specific thing on this island that people want to see.

This is more of a modern development for them.

Okay, I've had an idea then.

This is GDP.

GDP is about money.

Yes.

And a new source of GDP, a new source of money, I'm not saying it's a good one, is cryptocurrency.

Are they mining cryptocurrency on that island?

Nice.

No, but.

It's not that technological development, but you're definitely very warm.

Are they mining something?

Uh, no.

I love the way that you went from crypto.

The way you went from cryptocurrency, you didn't pick up on the whole technology new thing.

You went straight to mining.

You just went, no, this is going to be Snow White.

I know it.

Actually, my brain went, oh, are they growing weed?

Like, that's like, if it's not fire, I was like, are they like pot manufactured?

Like, are they growing pot?

Like, are they competing with Jamaica?

Like, but.

Maybe they could have like a whole hydroponic thing going on.

In the mines.

In the mines.

In the mines.

So when they sing hi-ho, hi-ho.

Fraggles.

It must be fraggles.

Yes, that's what's

fragile hunting.

Let's just say you're closer with crypto than fraggles.

That's okay.

Okay.

Sure.

So, I mean, a lot of like, you know, these places, they're tax havens.

So

NFTs?

If you were to list off sort of recent technological advances, say the last 20, 30 years, and then the last two or three years, you've got...

all is oh did they have it could be mining then did they have like lithium deposits for all the lithium batteries that are going in electric cars and phones and everything?

But I thought that was all mostly like Central Asia.

It's like volcanic area, so you're not going to get lithium, are you?

No, you're not going to get lithium there.

But is it other stuff?

Like it's not a physical thing about the island.

It's more of a stroke of luck, really.

Have they just recently found another Spanish galleon that's just got some

technology?

We're definitely in the right area of technology.

High frequency trading.

I mean, I don't know what that means.

So

there's

like the stock market.

There is a thing called high-frequency trading by by it's not like they have insider info.

It's just when a price goes up or down, they can buy or sell stuff really quickly by having a very fast, very direct intercon internet connection.

So places are getting closer and closer to each other or building like line of sight microwave links and stuff so they can get the quickest internet connection between places.

And I have no idea where Anguilla is, but if it's if it's in the Caribbean, it might be directly between say New York and somewhere else.

So you can put your computers there to do the cross-Atlantic trading.

Or it's linking all the islands up, so it's the main hub of all the different islands.

Oh.

Yeah, that could be where the internet is.

It's fiber.

You're edging ever closer to it.

It is something to do with the internet.

Go on, Matt.

You seem to have it.

Is it their TLD?

It is their TLD.

What is that, Matt?

So it's the top-level domain.

It's the last letters like.com on a web address.

So you've like.tv is two values.

Yes.

And they've made a load of money because television uses it.

That got licensed for $50 million in 1999, according to my notes.

And.fm for radio stations, which I think is Micronesia.

Yep.

So Anguilla, I would guess, was A-G.

A-N.

A-N is the Netherlands Antilles.

AG is Antigua and Barbuda.

What might?

A-L.

That's an word ending.

A-L.

A-A?

What would be good to have at the end of your thing?

Ah!

I don't know.

Specifically in the last couple of years.

.A-M?

You've You've gone through every letter in Hanguilla apart from.

AI.

Dot AI.

Ah, for goodness sake.

For goodness sake.

10% of their GDP.

Yes.

10%.

Domain name sales brought in $30 million

in 2023 compared to the territory's GDP of $300 million.

So 10% of that GDP was based on.ai domain names.

I suppose I can see why, because a lot of domain names,

they price them based on how common the words are.

So if you wanted like clever.ai, because that makes sense, that's going to be really expensive.

And you can pay millions for that.

Yep.

Fun fact, I got Izzy.com, I-S-Z-I.com when I was a teenager and it cost me about 20 quid, four-letter domain.

Oh, yeah.

Congratulations on getting that, actually.

I bought TomScott.com when I was in university for what was then to me a lot of money from another Tom Scott who'd never done anything with it.

And apparently several Tom Scotts over the years had emailed him and I was the first person who had put a price down rather than going, oh, what would we were thinking about this?

And I was the first person to go, will you take this much?

And he said, no.

And then I said, will you take this much?

And he said, yes.

And I've had that ever since.

Nice.

Don't ever let it go.

Yeah.

There are so many endings to domain names.

So this one's around because they gave one to all of the countries.

So all of the country codes and stuff.

But there are also so many random new ones.

Like there's one that's dot club.

And when I saw that one, it immediately made me think of a biscuit advert in the UK from the 90s.

So I bought If You Like a Lot of Chocolate on Your Biscuit, join our Dot Club.

And if we go there, it's just, you know, inappropriate for work.

It's just the advert, isn't it?

It's just the advert.

It's just the advert.

Okay, that's amazing.

Each of our guests has brought a question along with them.

We will start with Matt.

In December 2022, Louis Tomlinson made a public appearance at Prism Nightclub in Kingston-upon-Thames in London.

Fans were let in according to this order.

First, those who were in the queue at 8.30am,

then those who arrived before 8am,

and lastly, those who camped overnight.

Why?

And again.

In December 2022, Louis Tomlinson made a public appearance at Prism Nightclub in Kingston-upon-Thames in London.

Fans were let in according to this order.

First, those who were in the the queue at 8.30am.

Then, those who arrived before 8am.

And lastly, those who camped overnight.

Why?

I mean, it's a nuisance, so that they're trying to discourage people.

We made rules?

Yeah.

I'm going to say what I think it is, and I think this club's got the exit and the entrance back to front.

How so?

So that the queue, literally people that were standing, queuing up outside the exit and actually it was the entrance.

The actual queue line went the wrong way and then they assumed that the people who'd only just arrived had been queuing there all night and let them in i really like the idea that the queue just happened to be the right length that it ended at the entrance but unfortunately you're not quite right what time did the event start i wouldn't say that actually matters okay but it was a normal late evening gig in kingston They've got a one-way system in Kingston.

It's a pain if you've ever driven around it.

Yeah, you have.

I've got stuck in that.

Have you been to the prison nightclub, Matt?

Is it

where you you hang out?

Have you?

Look at you.

It's not where I hang out, but I have been there once, a very long time ago.

Okay.

Well, I wouldn't rule out what you were talking about at the start so quickly.

What were you talking about?

Was that my idea that the queue is backwards?

Izzy was getting closer, and is it something that the fans were surprised and disappointed by?

So is there,

was there some sort of...

ordering to the I mean because like queuing

I'm going to ask this and I'm going to sound so old but is this young fellow British or American?

He is British.

He's British.

So he understands the queuing system and the importance of queues.

So there is no...

Yeah, but it's a nightclub.

Like,

it's going to be a mess, whatever happens.

Yeah, I mean, you know,

there's going to be three different queues, and then the bouncer's just going to let someone else in because they're mates.

I wouldn't focus so much on the type of venue.

Like, if you just think of it as any, you know, gig venue that any pop star could be at, they could have done this anywhere.

Oh, right, because I was thinking it was to do with the layout of Prism.

Maybe it had different areas that get filled in different orders.

And the fans were warned about something beforehand.

Is it that like there were different tickets sold?

And so

like the people who actually had the 830 tickets or like showed up at 830 were like actually VIP and people didn't know that.

So like the people who camped out might have been like general admission.

Could have been ticket touters?

So that if you bought a genuine ticket,

you had a sort of like special time to turn up at and people who bought tickets secondhand didn't have that information and therefore you know so they overpay I don't know how that would work but is it to do with that to try and stop people because I know that's a big problem that tickets get sold on and you know people get you know lose a lot of money trying to see their favourite people it's neither of those but you have got vaguely close before if you continue to think about what might be happening outside this is a fairly mundane answer but there's a lot of nightclubs that have like licensing restrictions they can't be open a certain length.

Nearly all nightclubs, if they're anywhere near a residential area, have to have a sign on the exit that says, please leave quietly.

Please do not wake our neighbours.

Like, is there something nearby where they didn't want loud fans queuing overnight?

Like, there was a reward if you turned up at exactly the right time.

Was it a nursery or a creche or something?

So, Tom, you've got half of it there.

It's not a licensing thing.

Okay.

One thing that you should possibly think of is maybe the month that it was happening in?

Christmas.

It was cold.

I don't know.

Okay, so it was cold so that people were they didn't want people freezing to death.

Then why would they, why would they have let people who camped overnight?

Because punish them.

Because they're wearing warm clothing.

Ah, so they're already dressed in warm clothing and therefore the people who are semi-naked get in first.

You are so close that I'm going to give it to you.

It's to reward the fans who turned up on time to avoid the cold.

Okay.

So this was such a like a hotly sold gig.

It was like very

much talked about when he was coming back to do this very small for him gig in London.

The ticket information told the fans that they were not allowed to queue before 8 a.m.

on the day of the show stating, we cannot allow people to sleep overnight in this freezing weather.

Anyone who turned up too early was given a different colour of wristband and had to wait before the regular queue was let in.

Anyone camping overnight was given a third wristband and were admitted after the first two groups.

Banquet Records, the local record shop who organised the appearance, tweeted, Aware this will upset some, but there has to be repercussions for queuing too early.

Yeah, pneumonia.

Let us have pneumonia.

And that's the thing, like, fans will turn up and queue before events just to try and get to the front and stuff.

But like, that winter was particularly cold then as well.

Right.

I didn't write this question, but I heard this on the news, like on the day and on the day before leading up to it,

like on pop radio stations and the things targeted targeting his audience saying just don't don't go early don't go too early

but well done i think izzy you just about got there and then tom knocked it home i know i think i think tom got that one i was i was i was just thinking it was just pedantry and money and actually it was meteorology

Thank you to an anonymous listener for this next question.

In the seventh century, a group of frustrated Irish monks had an epiphany.

Moving forward, they made a change that had little to no effect on their daily routines, and yet it undoubtedly changed the world.

What was it?

And one more time, in the 7th century, a group of frustrated Irish monks had an epiphany.

Moving forward, they made a change that had little to no effect on their daily routines, and yet it undoubtedly changed the world.

What was it?

I can tell you all, it's not going to be taking mummies as medicine.

They work there yet.

So it wasn't that.

Okay, so scratch that off the list.

Oh, that video will have been out by now as well, because we're recording this a little early.

You will have a video out now about eating mummies.

Yes.

Wait, so I've got time to make a video about Irish monks to appear relevant.

Yes, yes, yes.

But you'll look really stupid for not knowing the answer immediately now.

That's the issue.

Oh, yeah.

Also, Matt Gray is trying being a monk.

Not entirely, he's got an idea now.

He's got an idea.

That would involve me being quiet, and I'm not very good at that, am I?

But I'm not a pious individual.

Oh, no, no, go and go and see the monks that brew Buckfast.

Ooh,

yes.

That's like the tonic wine that's full of alcohol and caffeine.

I bet they're having a whale of it.

But they're not in Ireland, are they?

No, they're not.

The translation for North Americans would be for loco

if it was if it was wine and made by monks.

And it tastes like cough syrup.

Yeah.

I will say that this has nothing to do with alcohol.

600 AD Irish monks.

Yes.

So this is pre-Viking, this is post, obviously,

even though Rome

didn't go into Ireland.

There was a lot of things happening there.

They're frustrated and they're not changing their daily routines.

I think this has got something to do with timekeeping or something to do with calendar keeping.

I agree with you.

Or like daylight savings time, sort of.

Maybe.

And I thought writing systems or languagey kind of stuff, because that's far back enough for them to have changed something or change the way they write something so then we now read it different now so it's all knock-on stuff so did they introduce some arabic lettering or something or maybe the way they use numbers to represent dates maybe but all right of the three of you matt you are by far the closest okay

all right matt because you know loads of irish monks did they introduce the w

or something like no that's post-roman though because the romans just had v's yeah but this is post-roman but it is oh it is isn't it then?

And

they would have been, you know,

the church would have reached this far by then, therefore, they would have trained.

So Christianity is effectively what the Roman Empire turned into Catholic Church.

I'm trying to think what language they'd speak in Ireland in the seventh century.

Because were they speaking?

But they'd have written in Latin.

They'd have written in Latin.

They would have written in Latin, yes.

Yeah.

Okay, yes.

If they're writing in Latin, then is that...

I'm just wondering if it's going to be related to the great vowel shift at this point when everything was...

But that's...

No, that's that's a thousand years later.

Is that okay?

Fine, okay.

What you talked about, what I picked up on, was the Arabic numeral situation

and shifting the numbers.

Famously, Arabic has a zero, which is you know the introduction of zero, but I'm not sure when that comes in or why.

I know mathematically it comes a lot earlier, but I know it sort of becomes popular at some point.

One thing I'm thinking of here is in the I know a tiny bit of Arabic, and in the Arabic alphabet, the

letters are all squiggly and the numbers

there was debate about whether they look like what we see the Latin numbers are now or another type which are more likely to be off from a Persian root which are very similar in what the Latin shapes are descended from but I don't think they came over to the UK in that shape I don't think the Romans invented much to be fair so they'd have nicked anything off anybody else to be fair um steel and stone well exactly well why why bother thinking but it's latin so they'll be they'll be writing uh uh

religious stuff in latin yes they would yeah and it's their daily routines as well so is it the prayers is it the matins and the so you need to have regular time intervals i'm going back to time and it's nothing to do with time we've already established this it's not to do with time the closest thing you've said is that it was to do with the w oh it's it's not the w but it is the other j

i don't i don't think latin has a j how does that change j doesn't change the world does it i mean called john but that's i'm trying to think of butterfly effect kind of stuff because if it had no effect on them but it changed everyone else but is it is it the writing of it because like historically like j was written as like the letter i like basically up through the 18th century so there is one other big difference that most historians would say came from Irish monks in the seventh century.

There is one shift that they brought into Latin that

before then you wouldn't have had.

Oh, is it is it the

hard?

Because it is like boude k and

it is the soft the soft C.

Is it that?

No.

It's definitely writing.

So it's writing, not pronunciation.

Because I don't think there was a K.

I think everything was just a C.

Oh, oh, oh.

Is it just the order of the alphabet?

Did they just train your A, B, C, D, E, F, G?

No, but it definitely made it easier to read.

Oh, is it writing from right to left?

No, left to right.

No.

Is it that an index is written in alphabetical order rather than a pin?

Oh, no, no, not quite.

You're closer with letters.

If this change hadn't happened, then typewriters and keyboards would actually have one fewer key.

Capitals.

You're closer.

There's one other big change that came along about then.

Did you say one fewer key on the keyboard?

Yes.

Is it to do with, is it to do with the spacing?

Is it introducing a space?

Yes.

Boom.

Oh.

This is where cudaform failed.

Oh, yes, because when you see inscriptions in Latin on buildings, they don't have spaces in between the words sometimes.

Yep.

Is that because they didn't use it to write with spaces?

Yep.

Before the seventh century, most Latin was written in scriptio continua.

Again, that would have been pronounced differently 1400 years ago, but there were no spaces between words.

So if you're literate, that's fine.

You can read the words, but it is a barrier to the common folk who couldn't read.

So, according to paleographers, the decline of scripto-continua began when monks began to add spaces in Irish Bibles in the seventh century.

Thank you, Irish monks.

That's cool.

I'm really glad for that, actually, because I've just started learning Japanese on Duolingo recently, which I realise isn't always the most accurate source for learning a language, but it's an easy way of doing it.

And certainly the way they write their hiragana script, there's no spaces between the words.

So, it's really, especially when you don't know the language yet, it's really hard to read because you don't know where one word starts and another word begins.

So, yeah, imagine doing that while trying to get your head around religious concepts and all of that at the same time.

Well, I think it'd be fine for a Bible, but still, all the histories and stuff would have been an absolute nightmare because there was no standard spelling.

Yes, this was Irish monks in the seventh century who,

in the shortest possible way I can phrase it, invented the space.

We will go to Abby for the next question.

Okay, well, this is a big change of pace.

this question has been sent in by Ashley West.

And the question is, Ash takes some hairspray and a pair of hair straighteners to a gymnastics competition, but doesn't use either of them on hair.

What are they used for instead?

So again, Ash takes some hairspray and a pair of hair straighteners to a gymnastics competition, but doesn't use either of them on hair.

What are they used for instead?

See, the hairspray I could imagine being used like to fix makeup or sort of, you know, but the straighteners.

I'm trying.

Those are.

I was thinking, is there some way you can like heat up the hair straighteners and create a blowtorch with a hairspray, but that's probably not quite what they're going for.

No.

No.

I think if there's an open flame in your hair straighteners, you've probably got a problem.

There's a problem.

Okay, I think it might have something to do with the type of gymnastics that women specifically do.

Am I close?

Not like a type.

It's not like, oh, for like a a vault specifically.

No, I was thinking it was, I think it was the ribbon because you want a straight ribbon and you could keep that straight really nicely with hairspray and use the hair tongs on it to straighten the ribbon is what I was thinking.

So you are correct about the ribbon and the hair straighteners, but not the hairspray.

Oh, okay.

Not the hairspray.

That's something else.

Yeah, the only place I'd thought was that hair straighteners could be used as an iron.

So yeah, that's what we've got here.

So hairspray is kind of sticky.

So, are you allowed to prepare your mat?

So, you spray that all over the mist, the floor, so it stops you.

Oh, your hands, so the thing, yes.

Sorry, that's Izzy's answer because Izzy was clasping her hands there to stop the baton falling out of your hands.

No, um, I would think about what women wear in gymnastics competition.

Oh, I was going to go through all the other elements of gymnastics there and try and work out a few of like setting the pommel horse on fire.

So I don't know why I'm obsessed with using hairsprays for fire.

It's just you hear hairspray and you think pyrotechnics.

That

says a lot about how my head works.

Simone Biles comes out with like a can of like Aquanette and like a blowtorch is like this is our talk, baby.

Oh, so yeah, they're using the hairspray on themselves to keep their clothes in place because there's so little clothing there.

Oh my God.

God, that's awful.

Yeah.

That makes so much sense.

Yeah, so because yeah, it basically it's like a spray adhesive.

So So it helps stick it down.

Now, Ashley does note that they do have official bum glue if they want to be fancy.

Official gymnastic bum glue.

Bum glue.

But I guess for like most girly pops doing the gymnastics, just a good strong hairspray helps keep it in place.

It's particularly bad because if when you remove hair, you've got to moisturize.

And moisturize obviously would make things more slippy.

So it makes sense to then use glue.

Simone biles are adhesive.

Oh my God.

Sorry, Simone.

You're the only gymnast I can think of.

Thank you to Jordan for sending this question in.

In 1965, Richard did a colour by numbers using brown, red and yellow pastels.

It's now framed and on display in Pasadena, California.

Why was this picture the first of its kind?

In 1965, Richard did a colour by numbers using brown, red and yellow pastels.

It's now framed and on display in Pasadena, California.

Why was this picture the first of its kind?

I've only done a couple of colour by numbers.

I wasn't, I didn't have the patience for it and ended up getting my colours confused so it looked like a psychedelic nonsense.

So, um,

I mean, that's that's not art.

I mean, it is so it's so art, or it's just impatience and an inability to pay attention.

Um, how about okay, so if a colour by numbers, for those we should make clear what that is, it's basically you've got a picture, and on the picture, it's got numbers in each segment where you paint that specific segment a certain colour.

And this one was just brown, red, and yellow.

Yes.

Has it got anything to do with that song,

All the Leaves Are Brown?

But no, that's grey.

Is this California Dreaming?

There you go.

Oh, it is.

It's on display in California.

Was he a papa from the Mummers and Papas?

Well, it's the first of its kind.

So there is an indication that it's one of the first

or like whatever he did was like the first paint by numbers or it has something to do with either the subject matter or the fact that he used only brown red and yellow and then obviously blends of those brown red and yellow this sounds an awful lot like things that come from the human body yeah it also is like just very popular colors in i mean popular colours yes but what i'm thinking is i'm thinking all of the colours the things that come out of you you know some of them are yellow some of them are brown and some of them are red.

The medieval humours of it all.

Exactly.

It's very.

I can't think of an artist called Richard, but if the artist was called Hieronymus,

Bosch's paintings are a bit more gruesome like that.

That was not the subject of the picture.

But the colours that were chosen did turn out to be surprisingly accurate.

Is it like the first, like, Jesus

paint by numbers?

Was it done by...

No, I was going to say, was it done by a blind person?

But that doesn't make sense.

Because you've just got to see the numbers.

Was it done by someone who's colorblind?

No.

No.

Okay.

I've got two slightly interlinked ideas.

So,

color by numbers is basically an algorithm.

So, is this someone using maths or calling it algorithmic art?

And the related thing is, well, at that point, you've got an infographic.

Was this the first infographic and they were trying to use a painting to display data?

This is a painting that's displaying data, but infographic isn't the right word for it.

You're right that colour by numbers is a...

it technically it is.

This was not just a a book of colour by numbers stuff.

It's not the first pie chart, because that was Florence Nightingale.

Was it the first colour by numbers made by computers?

Computers were involved in creating what was being coloured in.

Is it like a...

So this is 60s, there's a lot of city building going.

Was this like a zoning map?

And the first time they coloured it to see the distribution of like

industrial and residential and business zones not this time no space space sorry america 60s it's okay for space space yes so the the reason i came to that is 60s so computers very big very expensive

65 is very space so nasa's gonna have computers

and um did you say the person was british or was richard richard did i just assume that he's just called richard so you've just assumed it i don't know if you know this Matt, but there are Americans named Richard.

So just so you know.

Dick Cheney, you know,

think of Richards in America.

I've now got kids in America, but with the words Richards in America going on in my head.

Brown, red and yellow is kind of what Mars looks like.

It is.

Ooh, hello.

Is this like the first accurate so basically they got the data from Mars and then they made a map of it and then they painted it and it's the first actual colour picture we have of Mars.

Yes, it is.

And it's by numbers because the computer could only output text, like a dot matrix printer.

That's so cool.

Spot on.

You couldn't print in color, so that you had to do it yourself.

Yep, you're absolutely right.

This is Richard Grum and his colleagues from Pasadena, California.

Home of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

Yes, sorry.

And the little old lady.

Sorry?

Okay.

Okay.

Guys don't know how beach boys, like whatever.

It's fine.

Okay, okay.

I thought we established we're elder millennials not elder generation x okay i'm sure parents listen to you but i i am well versed in my 60s music thank you very much

my mum listened to queen

this was the mariner 4 spacecraft sending back images from mars it was the first ever close-up image of another planet It was taking a long time for the computers to process the data, so while they waited, they converted the data captured by a spare tape recorder into numbers, printed them out on ticker tape, stuck them together, and those numbers represented just the amount of light.

So it was actually just a black and white image.

Richard Grumman and his colleagues obtained some pastels from an art shop, and the colours chosen were surprisingly accurate for the red planet.

Oh, brown, red and yellow are just different shades of yellow-ish, aren't they?

So they're getting darker.

Yep.

Orangey rediness.

And yeah, Pasadena is where

they still downlink and process all of the data for

all of the remote stuff.

So that's where their mission control for for deep space is, I think.

Yep, and the image is still on display at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California.

Cool.

That's cool.

Izzy, over to you for the last guest question of the show.

This question has been sent in by Matthew Sherlock.

In the Jackson Heights Historic District of New York City, there's a sign for 35th Avenue.

Why does it also feature the numbers 1, 4, 1, four

one one one

and

one?

In the Jackson Heights Historic District of New York City, there is a sign for 35th Avenue.

Why does it also feature the numbers one four one four one one one and one?

The very first thing I do when I hear a sequence of numbers like that, it's like is that a code?

Is that something like that?

So I did the thing where you convert it to letters and I got adapt

which is

unhelpful.

Is it anything to do with cinema?

It has got nothing to do with cinema.

Okay, so I'll tell you what I was thinking then, because

in Die Hard 2,

someone has to solve a puzzle briefcase on the side of Central Park.

Nice.

And I think, I don't know where Jackson Heights is, but I assume it's up at least the very north end of Manhattan if it's on Manhattan or on Queens.

But you said Avenue.

Yeah, it's 35th Avenue.

So the avenues go east to west.

Yeah.

Streets go north to south.

So like Harlem is like in the 100 pluses.

Upper West Side's in the 70s.

Yeah, 35th is going to be fairly south as Manhattan goes.

Maybe like south bit of Central Park.

I wouldn't be as obsessed by the geography of it

as you.

I mean, something happened.

But avenues are the up down on Manhattan, not yeah, but then like Jackson, isn't Jackson Heights like way, way, way up at the top, and you're like...

Point Point is nothing to do with the answer, so don't worry about it.

It's just a little side quest we went on together.

If I were you, I would count the quantity of numbers in the list.

Seven, then one.

Well, you did say one one one.

Could be 111.

I said one four one four one one one one.

I'm gonna ask a really pedantic question.

Yes, please do.

Du do the pauses in that mean anything?

Like, are those in any groups?

No, they're not in any groups.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

I just like to be dramatic, Tom.

I'm trying to make ones and fours exciting for you.

So that final one isn't separate?

It's not separate.

Okay, particularly, no.

One, four, one, four, one, one, one, one.

Okay.

If anything, if I was to give you a big clue, it would be one, four,

one, four, one, one, one, one.

Okay, is it, is it, Jackson Heights is making me think Jackson 5.

Is it the chord sequence, chord progression within one of their songs, and it goes from the roots to the fourth chord, then back to the root, then the fourth chord, then it stays in the root for the rest of it.

And somebody thought this is the only way to celebrate that song is by putting it on this particular

and you get it, you deserve to know.

Is this something to do with the three Musketeers?

Okay, Donald.

Yeah, I was like, wait.

Word for all, and all for one.

I love the way your brains work.

No.

Did you just get that as well, Abby?

When I said like.

I was like, all four, one, one, four, all.

I'm like, I don't understand what this has to do with New York City, but.

No, Suffee.

At least we know our brains are like on some sort of equal wavelength, like,

which makes me feel a lot smarter than I actually am.

So, so how, count the quantity of numbers on the list.

So, how many numbers did I say?

There was eight.

Eight numbers on the list.

There were eight.

And that amount is the same as what?

Bits and a bite.

And what do you think about this?

Remember, we're looking at a sign for 35th Avenue.

Oh,

so 35 is 8.

That's true, but that's not it.

Well, that's confusing, okay?

There's a lot of A's happening.

You can decompose 8 into 3 and 5 from 35.

You can also.

Yeah, it doesn't.

There's eight compass directions?

I mean, technically, yes, but actually on the sign, what is that 8 of?

Is it, is this.

Wait, it's an octagon?

No.

No, there's no octagons octagons on the sign.

The sign says 35th Avenue.

Well, then.

And it also has the numbers 1414111 and 1 on it.

Is that just like the model number of the sign?

Or like the autocode?

Alas, alas not.

They're specifically placed.

And if you work out what else there is eight of on that sign, you might get a hint.

Oh, oh, oh, are they metro lines?

No.

Letters.

Is it letters?

Hello.

Hello, Abby.

Hello.

And then Avenue, that equals H.

It does.

So is it.

And appropriately, all of those letters are in capitals.

So it's Roman numeral.

No.

T-H-A-V-E-N-U-E.

It's not like for fours of vowels or anything because it's, there's no.

I've got them written down on top of each other and I can't see any relation.

I mean, maybe you shouldn't write them on top of each other.

Maybe you should write them slightly smaller and next to each other.

Oh, Scrabble!

Oh.

Scrabble numbers, aren't they?

So, why do they put the Scrabble numbers on this sign?

Is that where Scrabble was invented?

Bingo.

It's exactly where Scrabble was invented.

Well done.

In 1938, architect Alfred Moshe Butts invented a board game that he initially called Lexico, before changing it to cross-crosswords and then Scrabble.

The game was tested out in a room of the Methodist church here.

To commemorate this origin story, the 35th Avenue sign has been adorned with the numbers equivalent to the point values of the eight letters as if they were tiles in the game.

Oh,

lovely.

But well done, guys, because that was like, I was like, there's no way.

There is no way.

It is one of those things.

Right at the start, I was like, I'll convert these letters to numbers.

I didn't do the rest of the standard crossword clues and quiz clues for letters and numbers, which is, yeah, you check Scrabble, you check snooker ball colours, you check everything like that.

Yep.

I mean, you have to play Scrabble regularly to get the four is the H and the V.

So.

I like that

it was first playtested in a community centre, like all board games are.

And like so many board game nights are put together.

Which leaves me with the quick question from the start of the show.

I asked the audience in the UK who were the intended users of an app called Tudder.

Anyone want to take a quick guess at that?

I'm hoping, because in my head, it's spelled, initially spelt T-U-D-D-E-R, but I'm actually hoping it's spelt T-A-D-A-A and it's like ta-da, and it's a load of like magicians.

See, I was thinking it was a Netflix app because they do their, but I think it's Tadum.

That's how they do it.

Yes, they do their Tadum.

Yeah.

Oh, is it people from Yorkshire?

You don't want to use this up.

You want to use Tadda.

That's beautiful.

Izzy, you got the spelling right.

T-U-D-D-E-R.

Farmers?

Udder?

Farmers?

Yes.

Why?

I'll give you you it's farmers.

Why?

Okay, it's a farmers app for farmers.

So maybe,

oh, is it because

during certain breeding seasons, you need to make sure that you have enough breeding stock, which involves having fresh samples in order to impregnate your herds?

Yes.

Because trying to keep it as PG as possible.

So you go on Tutter and say, oh, our cows are in heat.

Can you please send over your bull type thing?

And they go, tutta, here's your bull.

Yes, this is a Tinder-style app for cattle, which allowed farmers to match bulls and cows across the UK.

As of 2024, the app is no longer functioning.

Oh, that's sad.

That's sad.

Thank you to all our players for getting through that gauntlet of questions.

What's going on in your lives?

Where can people find you?

We will start with Abby.

You can find me on YouTube, just Abby Cox, just basically everywhere.

You can also find me on Instagram at IamAbby Cox.

My website is Abby Cox Creates.

And yeah, if you just type in my name into Google, you're going to get me, the first lady of Utah and a dead hockey player and I think it's pretty easy to determine who's who at that point.

Izzy.

You can find me at iszi.com or zi.com if you're American.

And yes,

I do a podcast called Terrible Lizards, which is about dinosaurs.

I do that with paleontologist Dr.

David Hone.

It's very good if you like your stomps and your rouse and your flappy flaps.

So enjoy that.

Also, I write historical children's fiction and my new book, The Cursed Tomb, is out this year.

It is bang-on accurate.

I've had two Egyptologists working on it, and it is set in 1249 BCE in Egypt.

So enjoy that.

Yeah, The Cursed Tomb, it's with Bloomsbury.

Thank you.

And Matt.

I am at Matt Gray S on all the socials.

Put my name in there and you'll find it or go to mattsg.co.uk.

And the links are all there.

If you're searching for me, I'm the one with the curly hair, not the other Matt Grays.

And if you want to know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com.

We are at lateralcast basically everywhere, and there are regular video highlights at youtube.com/slash lateralcast.

Thank you very much to Matt Gray.

Yay!

Izzy Lawrence.

A pleasure.

Abby Cox.

Thanks for having me.

I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral.