Live with Heather Cox Richardson

everybody.

Sorry we're a little bit late getting started.

It's been quite a day for the governor.

And thank you, Governor Newsom, for joining us today.

Great to be with you.

Thank you.

It's been quite a day for you.

I wanted to talk today about what you just said in California and how you said it

and the implications in the short term for it, but also the long-term implications for American democracy.

It was a big day for you.

Do you want to start by telling the audience here who may not have heard your press conference or may not have heard

your

or read about it yet what you have said today in California?

Well, if I, and I appreciate it, I want to say where I'm saying it.

I'm in little Tokyo.

I'm at the Democracy Center.

I'm at the center of what occurred in the 1940s, where people were quite literally picked up right behind me, a few feet away, Japanese and interned.

As we started our press conference with senators, United States senators, Badia Schiff, members of Congress, community leaders, everybody assembled,

Border Patrol was set right here

to the exact site where people were picked up and interned in the 1940s.

I just hope people pause and think about that.

that they were directed clearly by the White House as a political operation to make a point.

And that means means we didn't have to make much of a point ourselves about what this election is all about and what's happening in this country and

this sort of shift towards more authoritarianism and

what's at stake with redistricting and what's at stake with our democracy and how the founding fathers would be rolling over in their grave.

Well, let's step back a bit because you said when it happened that they were making a specific point.

And it wasn't just about picking people up.

It was about the upcoming 2026 and then 2028 election.

Yeah, look, there's no doubt in my mind that, and I said this a few months ago, when we saw 4,000 of our National Guard federalized, we saw 700 United States Marines sent to an American city.

The first time Donald Trump ever deployed the U.S.

military, never did it overseas, did it into the United States of America into Los Angeles.

I said, this is a preview of things to come.

I don't know what more evidence we need than what happened in Washington, D.C.

And you're going to see this all across the United States.

What we saw just a moment ago with Border Patrol is a preview of things to come at voting booths and polling places all across this country.

These guys aren't screwing around.

Wake up.

Donald Trump is not screwing around.

He called Greg Abbott.

He said he was entitled to five seats.

He's trying to rig the next election in the midterms.

There's a reason members of the Trump team sent me a Trump 2028 hat with a note is they're not screwing around and we could no longer screw around either.

So you spoke today specifically in response to the demand of President Donald Trump of the Texas legislators to redistrict the state in the middle of a

cycle, which is usually every 10 years because the U.S.

Census demand, the U.S.

Constitution demands that we do a census every 10 years for redistricting.

And Texas has done this before in 2003, but they are looking to redistrict Texas to get rid of a number of Democratic representatives and replace them with Republicans, five.

So today in California, you pushed back with a very specific plan.

Could you outline that plan for us, even though the maps have not come out yet?

We understand.

Well, we're fighting fire with fire.

We're responding to

what appears to be happening in real real time in Texas.

And rather than having one hand tied behind our back in California, we are asking the people of the state of California in a special election on November 4th

through their representatives, two-thirds of which will on Monday introduce a constitutional amendment to allow the independent redistricting of California to occur mid-decade to fight firefire, the equivalent of five seats, to neuter and neutralize what's happening in Texas on a temporary basis.

We'll do it in a transparent way by putting the maps up and make them available for public review.

And we'll do it in the most democratic way.

The people will ultimately decide.

Stark contrast to what's happening in Texas.

It's triggered only if Texas moves forward.

if Missouri moves forward, if Florida moves forward, if Indiana or Ohio or any of these other states move forward in response to what appears pretty clearly to be the rigging of the midterm election analogous to what happened after January 6th when Donald Trump started dialing for votes and the very infamous phone calls he made to the Secretary of State in Georgia.

So I want to get back in a bit to the idea that this is a long-term plan of the mega-Republicans to take over the American system entirely so that the Democrats can never win.

So we essentially get a one-party state.

But let's go back, first of all, to this specific plan because there's some pieces of it that I think are important for people to understand.

The first, as you say, is that it is reactionary.

It would only go into effect if the Texas Republicans go forward with their own redistricting plan

in the mid-cycle.

Is that correct?

That's it.

There's an exit ramp.

They don't move forward.

We don't move forward.

This is not the fight we want, but we're not going to sit back again and roll over.

We're not going to sit back with one hand hand tied behind our back, have a candlelight vigil, hold hands, talk about the way the world should be.

Not when we're seeing this level of recklessness, this level

of insidiousness as it relates to democratic institutions, democratic norms, and the rigging of the 2026 congressional maps.

All right.

So if that's the immediate piece of it, there is within it, as I understand it,

and I have not yet read the measure, there is within it a demand for a national nonpartisan.

Can you talk about that?

Yeah, look,

just so people understand and want to level set with folks, good people can disagree on this, I support and have supported independent redistricting.

I believe it's the right approach.

I'm really proud of my party.

the Democratic Party for doing the same.

Zoe Lawford, who's the head of the California Congressional Delegation, sponsored legislation, was supported by all the Democrats to create a national independent redistricting.

No Republicans supported it.

Democrats supported that.

That's what we believe.

It's the right thing to do.

We need to move beyond these partisan gerrymander districts where we pick voters as opposed to voters picking us.

But in the absence of that happening nationwide, in the absence of these

fairness being advanced in other states, we have to act anew in the sort of language of Lincoln himself in his second State of the Union.

We have to disenthrall ourselves.

Facts are new.

We have to think anew, and we have to act anew.

And I think the key here is act.

It's not good enough to talk about.

We have to actually move forward.

We have to meet this head-on.

That's why we say fire with fire.

It is about power.

It's not about party.

That's all this is about.

But again, it came about in response.

If they don't move, we don't move.

The legislature on Monday will introduce a number of bills, a constitutional amendment.

They will introduce the maps.

The fact that maps will come out, I think, as early as tomorrow, so people have a chance to see them.

Again, they'll be on people's ballot.

And so ultimately, people decide on November 4th, it's an election that coincides with a lot of municipal elections.

And we will fund those elections, the special election at the local level, so that there's access and opportunity.

We're going to do it.

in the most transparent way that's ever been done here in the state of California.

But we fundamentally believe, and the voters will have a chance to concur, that we should have independent, nationalized redistricting.

That is going to be on our ballot as well.

All right.

So what would you say to institutionalists like me who say that in fact we need to support American institutions even

when other people are not supporting them, because by walking away from them, we destroy the project?

Well, I think this project is being destroyed.

I mean, the best of the Roman Republic and Greek democracy and co-equal branches of government, a system of checks and balances, popular sovereignty, it's all on the line.

There's no independent redistricting.

If Trump is successful in wiring the five votes that he claims he's entitled to or the five seats in Texas and all of these other states, he's not going to stop in Texas.

You see what he just tried to do to one of the great research institutions in the world that helped create the internet, UCLA, and the $1 billion extortion package.

They're selling their souls.

God help us.

God help us.

They'll do this at Harvard.

Institutions, my gosh, institutions.

How about free enterprise?

How about what NVIDIA just did?

AMD.

Institutions, they're fraying.

They're cracking.

So we have got to, this is about power, yes, but it's also about power pushing back against Trump.

And it's also about power to call out this rigged.

election that he's trying to advance and to try to provide a level playing field.

That's all we're trying to do, neutralize what they're doing in Texas.

Well, you certainly could make the argument that

what you are doing is quite intelligently looking at the nation as a whole and California as a piece of that.

So by protecting the larger institutional system of the checks and balances in the country and stopping this extraordinary power grab, that in fact you are supporting those institutions, not undercutting them.

Do you think that's fair?

I couldn't agree with you more.

I mean, this is, you know, this is about all of us.

This is about the United States of America.

The implications, everyone listening, the implications are well beyond California.

And this is about representation.

It's about as fundamental and foundational as it gets.

And again, this is the core enduring experiment that we've enjoyed, but can no longer take for granted for 249 years.

I mean, the idea that Donald Trump is going to represent this nation on the 250th anniversary and he's up to this?

I mean, come on.

We're going to represent, the American people are going to represent the country at the 250th.

God bless you.

And that reminds me of Justice

Hagan's dissent

in not dissimilar redistricting issues where the power of the government is endowed by the people.

I'm here at the Democracy Center.

And in that spirit, I remember Justice Brandeis said, in a democracy, the most important office is not office of president, certainly not governor, city council, mayor.

The most important office is office of citizen.

And it's about active, not inert citizenship.

And so

this notion of we the people

is foundational.

And I appreciate that spirit.

And I appreciate your reflection of that.

Well, you mentioned that in your speech today.

You talked about agency and about how part of what you're doing is trying to remind Americans that they do have agency over their government.

Was that a deliberate call for this speech?

Yeah, I don't know.

It's happened.

I feel like some of us have, we become victims in so many respects.

We forget we're not bystanders in the world, that the future is not just something to experience.

It's something to manifest.

It's right here.

It's right inside of us.

It is.

It's decisions, not conditions.

And I don't, you know, maybe I'm,

maybe after the pandemic, I started reading a little more Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius and Seneca and spent a a little time with the Stoics a little bit.

But it's a reminder, it's not what happens to us.

It's how we respond to what happens to us that matters.

And we have agency.

That's what citizenship.

He can't take that away from us.

He can't.

He's trying.

He can only take it away if we allow him to take it away from us.

And I'm very mindful that that's happened in other countries around the world and other points of our history.

With the consent, there's a complicity.

We are not bystanders.

Well, one of the things that jumped out to me about this declaration of the governor of California that he would use the power, the extraordinary power of the state of California, which, as you say, has the population of 21 of the smaller states and the fourth largest economy in the world.

Congratulations on that, by the way.

That came earlier this year.

You moved from fifth to fourth.

But what really interested me about that, in terms of the way we think about American democracy democracy in the larger picture is I believe this is the first time in American history where a state has called for other states to pressure the national government to change the system for larger inclusion in democracy.

And what I mean by that is that generally after World War II,

The liberals who wanted the government to regulate business and provide a basic social safety net and protect civil rights and invest in infrastructure, look to the federal government to move states along those lines, especially states that had tended to discriminate against their populations.

And so there's been a tendency for people who cared about those issues, and that's not just, by the way, in the 1950s and 60s and 70s, a Democratic proposition, but an American proposition, to look to the federal government.

But I believe this is the first time that a state has said we will leverage our very strong power to force the federal government to stop destroying our democracy.

I think it's a really big moment, what you have just declared.

Did you see it that way?

Yeah, no, it's interesting.

As you're framing it, I'm starting to see it that way.

Look,

I've seen, and Ron Bronstein and others have been writing a lot about this,

this great divergence that's occurred in this country in the last, I don't know, decade or so, red versus blue.

We've seen, as you describe it, you know, from sort of post-World War II frame, this rights expansion, this increasing and growing nationalization of rights.

And now we're seeing that regression state by state.

I started to see it a number of years ago in a deeper way when I started to reconcile the fact that I'm on the receiving end of CRT, DEI, ESG, anything with three letters.

They seen it started to shape-shift.

And we started to see that with Ron DeSantis in particular, Abbott, in many respects, without as much fanfare, starting to sort of rewrite history, censor historic facts what more evidence we need with smithsonian and what's going on there and i started to see it as it relates to curriculum being changed i saw it with books that are being banned literally or books even worse that are being changed like like social studies books where they're taking the race of rosa parks out of the book because it's quote unquote too woke as it relates to the history of the civil rights uh movement and so this this this this nationalization of rights that now seems to be moving backwards to pre-1960s construct.

It just occurs to me now to the extent possible states can assert themselves, like California, states that might just be able to punch a little bit above their weight, that we can lay a little bit more claim to

recognizing this moment in history and push back and move back, I think, to our better angels

where we truly are, as Adam Schiff said today,

you know, sort of marking

that sort of infamous MLK frame, that, you know, that arc of history will ultimately bend towards justice.

And I just feel like it's getting increasingly out of our grasp, and we've got to pull that arc back down.

Well, you did something else very interesting, though, in your speech that speaks to that.

And that is that really since, well, at least for the last 20 years, and I would push it back for 20 before that, there's been a tendency among the rhetoric of the radical right to demonize democratic states, especially California and New York, but especially California.

And you actually took on Texas today, and you also spoke up very powerfully about having pride in the things that

make California great.

That, too, I thought was an important rhetorical shift.

I appreciate that.

I looked around the room as people were cheering.

It's the most diverse crowd in the most diverse city, the world's most diverse democracy.

It's a point of pride.

It's all at stake.

We don't say it enough.

And, you know, why is California the fourth largest economy?

I appreciate you recognizing that.

It's not despite that diversity.

It's because of it.

We get first-round draft choices around the rest of the world.

The best and the brightest come to California, states like California, other large states across this country, because

they feel seen and heard.

They feel a sense of belonging.

That's what makes this country great.

That's what's made America great.

Lady Torch, you know, that Lady Liberty's torch, you know, the life force, as Reagan said, yes, Ronald Reagan himself, of new Americans.

That's our greatness.

And all of that is at risk.

That's what the Border Patrol was sitting there trying to disabuse us of.

We're not going to let Donald Trump wreck that.

And I'm not, you know,

I will acknowledge that there is, there's definitely, I submit.

Trump derangement syndrome, but there's sure as hell is California derangement syndrome.

We have more scientists, engineers, more researchers, more Nobel laureates than any other state in America.

Just think about the UC system that he's attacking, 13,800 active patents.

There's no other university system on planet Earth with more patents.

You care about national security.

You care about economic progress.

You care about innovation and entrepreneurialism.

You care about dominating the next century and globally and otherwise.

You sure as hell better care about those institutions.

All of those are at risk with the rule of dawn.

Well, I hope it's dawning on people what's at stake.

Well, the contrast of ICE being there as you said that, because of course, economists 1,000% bear out exactly what you just said here, was a striking moment.

It was also, I thought, a very striking moment that Trump and the MAGA Republicans, especially I'm thinking of somebody like Stephen Miller right now, the White House deputy chief of staff, have made it a point really to talk about how terrible America is, that it's American carnage, that there's, you know, who was it?

The senator from Oklahoma today, Mark Wayne Mullin, said he drives around Washington without a seatbelt because he's afraid he's going to get carjacked.

I'm like, dude, come on.

Like, really?

You know, I spent a lot of time.

I've got a little bit more carjacked in his state than he is in these blue states.

I'll remind everyone watching, eight of the top 10 murder states in America are red states.

You've got, you talk about Speaker.

We didn't talk about the Speaker of the House Johnson.

His district has six or eight times more murder rate per capita than Nancy Pelosi's.

Why the hell isn't Trump sending the National Guard in to deal with the carnage in Speaker Johnson's backyard?

It's all BS.

It's all performative, but it's all very real.

And that's why we need to sober up.

We need to act differently.

It's time we have to get back on the offense.

It's time we shapeshift the conversation.

It's time we dominate and flood the zone on the narrative.

And it's time we call out the bullshit.

Excuse my language.

I know there's a lot of,

a lot of us are swearing a lot more than we used to.

And forgive me.

But the reality is we're in a new reality.

And Democrats, I think the biggest problem with our party right now is the sense that we're weak,

that we're we're time to disabuse people of that.

We have power.

We need to start exercising it.

Okay, you said a bunch of things there that I think are really important.

Agency, offense, and defense of the qualities that have always made America great.

You referenced Ronald Reagan there, the last public speech he gave, talked about how important immigration was to making America stay on the top of its game, constantly innovating, constantly being the best in the world because we welcome new people.

And that he said if we stopped that, we would cease to be America.

We would cease to be the country we were.

And I think we're seeing that.

I mean, look,

we've had a formula for success in this country.

And

I mean, for everybody, we've been there

for all the challenges.

And

we have, it goes without saying, we have all these preexisting conditions, but we have been the envy of the world.

And these guys are trying to wreck it.

They're trying to wreck it.

And they don't know what the hell they're doing.

Trump doesn't know what.

the hell he's doing.

And you have all of these people that are complicit and they're shaking their head.

Yes, sir.

And the worst part, Heather, it's some of the wealthiest and most connected people that are selling out.

That's why if Harvard does this, they will sell out higher education in this country.

It is a shame.

It would be a disgrace.

You have some of the wealthiest business leaders selling out, allowing their companies to be nationalized, socialized, dare I say.

We cannot allow that to happen.

People are scared.

I'll tell you what, we have some people that want to contribute to this campaign.

They're scared of the retribution from this son of a bitch i mean this is how bad it is

let me just explain for people who may not have been following it that in fact the trump administration has been exercising really quite unusual control over government mergers for example they've been requiring 15 percent kickbacks on the sale of certain kinds of chips to china and so on and there is uh a real concern that this is a form of state capitalism that looks a lot more more like china than it looks like our free labor system

But while we're on that topic, though, Governor, what about

your new?

I think you have a very new approach to how you are taking on the Trump administration.

And I know that I've been reprinting you, and certainly a lot of people have been retweeting you.

Why did you make the decision to do what you're doing?

Can you explain it to us and say if it, you know, where you think it fits in this fight that we are on to protect American democracy?

Yeah, look,

I have,

we all have a sell-by date, and I'm not going to dream of regretting.

I'm

putting it all out of the line.

And I just,

I've never been more concerned about this country and for that matter, the world

that we're living in.

And

I recognize the power of communication.

I realize the power of the narrative we talked about a moment ago, or at least I asserted the imperative of claiming the narrative.

And I'm just iterating.

I'm constantly iterating.

So I got a podcast.

I'm just trying new things.

And there's humility in that.

There's grace.

I'm just trying to see what works.

And I decided a few days ago with the team to mimic a little bit of the childishness that is Donald Trump and what he puts out on Truth Social.

It all caps, exclamation, exclamation.

And, you know, I don't know, some refer to it as a parody of sorts, but it's been a potent communication tool.

People are now talking about it.

I'm getting people that never reach out to me, that don't care much about politics, can't stand politicians, just want to talk to me about sports or culture, saying, hey, wait, I saw your tweet, kind of like that.

All of a sudden, they're paying a little bit more attention and they're maybe paying attention to the childishness.

that is Donald Trump, that we've allowed him to normalize the way he communicates, talking down to us, talking past us.

And so, yeah,

we're iterating.

We're trying new things.

I'm not trying to claim anything except a willingness to try, a willingness to learn.

Again, with, as I said, the humility and grace of the moment that it requires.

Do you want to tell this audience what you said in response to a question about it at your press conference

after the speech?

No, I mean, I just basically reinforce a little bit more succinctly what I just said.

Look,

how it's pathetic.

He's the president of the United States, the president of the United States of America.

And he's sitting there at 1-2 in the morning with all caps.

And it just,

anyway,

I don't know how many more I'll have of those tweets, but if you haven't checked out some of my tweets, go online.

You may enjoy a few of them.

I believe you said, if you have a problem with my tweets, you sure should have a problem with the president of the United States making those tweets.

Exactly.

I mean, I got kids and I got

a whole generation of people that thinks this is normal.

It's not.

And it can't be normalized.

And that's a big part of what we're also pushing back against.

Pay attention, everybody.

Please, please, please, please pay attention to what's going on.

So I have just two very quick questions for you.

One is I'm not going to ask you how you think Trump will respond because we don't know.

That's one of the reasons we sort of have to take it on a moment-by-moment basis.

But do you have a series of plans in place depending on how he responds to this?

Because he will.

That was a red flag to a bull.

Boy, he responded today.

Border Patrol was out there for a reason.

That wasn't done.

That wasn't happenstance.

That's, I mean, that's a, that's an Orban, you know, turkey playbook.

I mean, that was just, you know, that was, you know, that's, as I said, weakness masquerading is strength.

But again, it was a masterclass of making our point, not his point.

He made no point.

He made our point of what's at stake.

So that's how he'll react.

He's reacted by saying I should be arrested.

Under what basis?

He said, well, because he was elected governor.

I mean, you can't make this stuff up.

So look, I'm not naive.

He's reacting.

He's trying to wreck California.

He's, you know, he's trying to wreck the only high-speed rail system in the Western Hemisphere.

He's trying to...

go after us as it relates to institutions of higher learning.

Any independent, any place that cultivates independent thinking, donald trump is going after

any institution that cultivates independent thinking and that should sober everyone up not just california not just californians not just elected officials i'm fine the 15 year old that had a gun pulled to his head who's disabled trying to go to school last week he's not the rest of his life he's going to have that image of a gun that was put to his head by ice agents

so that's that's

what the hell do we need to sober up

so so that's my final that is my final question for you you talked about agency you've talked about new things you new ways to approach the protection of democracy you've talked about what you are doing what should the american people be doing to support the democratic project right now because everybody wants to do something the popularity of this administration you know is in the in the toilet the people who support support Project 2024, about 4% of Americans support it when they know what it is.

What should people be doing to support the protection of American democracy?

It's the right question.

And I think about this all the time.

I get this question all the time.

What he's trying to do, the shock and awe is trying to just

weight us down, try to distract us, try to exhaust us.

We're just overwhelmed.

And as a consequence, we just sort of stand back and step down and just get lost and, you know,

online and doom scrolling, et cetera.

We can't allow him

to allow us to fall prey to cynicism and fear.

And I want everyone listening to know they're the antidote to that cynicism and fear.

The fact that you're even watching this, if you are, even if you came here because you can't stand me.

You're the antidote to that cynicism fair.

You haven't given up.

You haven't given in.

And I think the answer is not complicated.

Just be yourself.

Say what you think.

Learn from, don't follow others.

Express yourself.

Do so in a responsible way.

Don't talk past people.

Don't talk down to people.

All of us want to be loved.

All of us need to be loved.

We all want to be protected, connected, and respected.

Have that in your heart, but be accountable by exercising your voice.

Show up.

It inspires people.

And that No King's Day, you inspired me.

I wasn't sure how that was going, the big 250th 250th anniversary,

big birthday bash.

I honestly didn't know I was going to go.

Like I'm starting to feel it.

If I'm feeling it, and I have this bully pulpit, this gift, I can imagine how many people are feeling, but you showed up.

And I mean, you put

wind in my sail.

I mean, like, thank you for having our back.

The fact that we've even gotten this far with the legislature and with our congressional, I mean, this is amazing.

Thank you.

Thank you for not giving up.

Keep at it.

Seriously, like proud, just as a guy who's the ex-governor of California, a guy who's trying to raise four kids just to be decent people.

I don't care if they're Democrats or Republicans.

I just want them to be good human beings.

And I want them to have the privileges that all of us have, the freedoms, the liberties, the ability to live their lives out loud.

And those things you can't take for granted anymore.

Amen, Governor Newsom.

Thank you so much for being with us.

And I hope we do this again sometime.

Best of luck to you and best of luck with this project.

I appreciate it.

Honor to be with you.

Seriously.

Take care.

Thank you for being here, everybody.

Thank you, everybody.