"I Was Diagnosed With Stage 4 Cancer. How Do I Protect My Dependents?"

I'm Nicole Lappin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand.

It's time for some money rehab.

Today's episode is a really, really special one for me.

It's one that I hope you not only listen to, but really sit with.

Because today we're talking about money and mortality, life and legacy, about how to take control of your financial life in a moment when everything else feels so uncertain.

My guest today is Erin.

She is someone whose story is going to stay with me for a very long time.

She's a money rehabber who DM'd me on Instagram and told me that she had been diagnosed with stage four breast cancer.

She wanted to talk about what she needed to do to get her finances in order so that her husband and her mom are taken care of in case her condition worsens.

I wanted to make sure that Erin not only had the financial insight, but the legal insight as well.

So later in the episode, Erin and I will be be joined by Veronica Escobar, an attorney specializing in trusts and estates, as well as elder law and special needs training.

Erin also asked me some questions around saving for medical care that I want to answer for her as well.

So you're going to hear a second episode tomorrow focusing on those questions.

But today we focus on what's top of mind for her, how to make sure her dependence will be okay.

I know you will be moved by Erin's story just as much as I was.

I was actually so affected by her selflessness that on air, I decided that I wanted to be there and take the next steps with her.

So I'll share more on how I did that at the very end of the episode.

But first, I want to introduce you to Erin.

Erin, welcome to Money Rehab.

Thank you so much.

This is pretty amazing.

I followed your career and you motivated me to open my 401k years ago when I bought your book.

So thank you for having me.

Oh my God, Aaron.

I'm already tearing up.

I just want to say you are amazing.

This is legit tearing up.

I want to start by just saying how honored I am to have you here sharing your story.

Can you just start by telling all of us the story of how you were diagnosed?

Sure.

So I'm about 16 months into my journey.

In February of 2024, I was diagnosed with metastatic stage four breast cancer after receiving my very first mammogram.

The reason I was going for my mammogram is because the end of 2023, my mom had been diagnosed with stage one breast cancer and i was turning 40 last year so it was a priority for me to do that just thinking it would be routine nothing out of the ordinary just kind of checking it off the list to say i'm getting my first mammogram check done can move on didn't expect to then get a scare followed by biopsies and told that i had stage two breast cancer and that we were going to do chemo, surgery, radiation, and put me in menopause.

And as if that's not enough to deal with, wrapping your brain around that, I then go for a PET scan and my own oncologist was surprised to learn that it was actually stage four

and it had spread unbeknownst to everyone to my liver and my bones.

And there were no physical or outward indications that any of that was happening.

I considered myself to be physically fit and active, just never sick in the hospital, you know, all the things that we think there's some kind of warning there's something to tell you that something's going on in your body and there was nothing at all so it was devastating to try to reconcile that how do you go from maybe seeing your doctor once a year for a physical to now having dozens of appointments and scans and treatment plans and truly at the base of it wondering am i going to live and how long

so it's a very hard thing to reconcile

And it's been difficult because my first two lines of treatment have failed, unfortunately.

And just so people are aware, metastatic breast cancer does not have a cure.

So it's not, as my mom's situation was different where she had stage one,

had a lumpectomy and radiation and hopefully can move on with her life and will never have a reoccurrence.

This is a totally different ballgame where I will be in treatment the rest of my life.

And we pray that that each treatment lasts as long as possible.

So within the first year, my first two lines of treatment had already failed.

I'm on my third line of treatment now and tolerating it well.

It is a chemotherapy.

So I think people have maybe an outdated perception of what stage four cancer looks like, what chemotherapy looks like.

I look and feel very much like myself for the most part, thankfully.

I'm working full-time.

active, traveling.

And right now I'm in a very stable period.

So because it's working, I can focus on like the conversation we're going to have now, which is so important and enjoying my life.

And it's, it's a nice time to just be me and just feel like myself again.

Always in the back of my mind, worried that when and if this treatment fails, what will the next one look like?

Will the next treatment be more aggressive?

But a lot of women deal with that, unfortunately, in my situation.

So.

Oh my God, sister.

I wish we were in person right now.

I would give you the biggest hug.

I'm giving you the biggest virtual hug right now.

I hope you feel some of that.

How are you feeling emotionally?

It's, it's awesome that you are feeling so good physically to work, to have conversations like this, to help other women.

But what about your, what about your thoughts, your emotions right now?

It's different.

I would say week to week, every couple weeks.

Sometimes I'm disconnected from my diagnosis, which for me is a healthy way to be because it can be all consuming just thinking about the inevitable things that will happen and what's to come.

And I kind of have to tune the volume down on that, you know, if that makes sense.

Like just, I'm not in that place right now.

And then sometimes it all rushes at you and it does consume you.

And you're just like,

how am I functioning?

I asked myself that because people around me ask that.

How are you functioning?

How do you work?

And

all I can say is you get up and you just do it.

I have no other explanation because I've asked myself the same thing.

I am more than entitled to fall apart

every day if I wanted to.

But I don't, for me, don't find it to be helpful.

The normal, the routine, just getting on with life, it's helped me.

And what does your care team say now about

what treatment might look like for you next?

What does the road ahead potentially look like?

That was a difficult conversation with my oncologist.

I'm a very facts-based person.

I like to know and be prepared.

I generally don't bury my head in the sand with things.

So I asked my doctor flat out, being that my first two treatments failed and I'm in this position now, less than two years later, already needing chemotherapy.

I'm not asking you to put a date on the calendar, but in your experience, how many good years would you say I have from now?

And that was in February of this year.

And he said, honestly, one to two.

That's his experience that no one knows what's going to happen.

I can only hope that I have as many good years, vibrant years as possible, but I do have to prepare myself for that eventuality, unfortunately.

Thank you so much for sharing that truly, Erin.

I just can't tell you how meaningful this conversation is to me and to all of our listeners.

how moved I was when you reached out to me.

So just so our listeners know, you DM'd me to ask if we could have a conversation on estate planning.

And I just want to say, you know, that being proactive is so, so brave.

It is so, so powerful.

And I know your intention is to help a lot of people listening.

So thank you.

Yes, thank you.

It is because if

anyone is in this situation and somehow has the wherewithal and the capacity to answer these questions, I do think it'll be helpful.

There's so much swirling around when you find yourself in this position, staying alive, getting a good doctor, getting a second opinion doctor.

So if you find yourself and you're listening and you're just like, these are some other things I should prepare for, I hope that you are finding this helpful and it'll get, it'll be a roadmap maybe to help get some questions answered for anyone who finds themselves in this place.

Amen.

Okay.

I can't really be helpful physically and emotionally, but I can be helpful financially.

So let's talk about what you have built financially.

I'm so honored that you were inspired to start a 401k

by some of my work.

You sent me some of the details before we spoke today.

And let me just say, you and your husband have done an awesome job.

Right now, you guys have no debt outside of your mortgage.

You have savings.

You have strong retirement accounts.

I know one of your top questions is how do I create a will?

to protect this for my family, my husband and my mother.

And so I'm actually going to bring in Veronica Escobar.

She's She's an awesome lawyer out of New York.

She has her own elder law and trust and estates practice in New York to answer some of these questions as thoroughly as possible.

Veronica, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for welcoming me.

And Erin, once again, it's so lovely to meet you and hopefully answer some of your pressing questions.

You too.

Thank you.

So, Erin, you asked me what type of will you should consider.

You don't have any will or any trust currently.

Is that right?

That's right.

Okay.

So Veronica, what are some of the best practices that Erin can do around starting a will for the first time?

Well, I just want to backtrack a little bit and say that despite everything that she's going through, she's one tough cookie and she actually is doing all of the right things, despite what she may be feeling emotionally and what is going on in her body.

So that's first and foremost.

In terms of a will, it's really case specific and it depends on the person, their family structure, as well as their assets, what type of assets they have and where they're held.

So having listened to Erin tell you a little bit about her financial background, I have a follow-up question.

Erin, do you have any children?

No, no children.

My mom is retired and lives with us.

So she does depend on us financially for the most part.

And that was one of my concerns, how we protect protect her in the event of my passing so that she's cared for.

Thanks so much for that tidbit of information.

And more and more, you do find adult children caring for their parents, whether it's the parent living in the home with the adult child or the adult child providing financial support for that parent.

So if that is a concern, and if your parent you suspect at one point in time in the future is going to require long-term care, you may want to consider establishing a trust that specifically addresses her needs, whether it is providing a lump sum to her or whether it is providing a monthly sum to her that is for her health, her maintenance, and her support.

If I can ask a follow-up question, does your mother have a long-term care policy or does she have sufficient funds liquid to fund her own long-term care?

No and no.

Okay.

Do you have life insurance policies?

On myself, yes.

Do they at any point have a beneficiary?

Yes.

Is your mother that beneficiary or is it your spouse?

My spouse is a primary and then she would be contingent if we were to both pass away.

Okay.

So one of the things that I would tell you that in addition to working with an estate planning attorney, you should also work with your accountant.

And if you have a financial advisor with a financial advisor, because they're very good at advising people about, number one, how to best invest their money, but also how to plan for long-term care.

And if your focus is being able to provide for your mother financially should you pass away, then that is a good topic to discuss with that individual.

Sorry, Erin, do you have somebody to help you with that?

Not well, one of my questions to you was part of our retirement savings and a non-qualified account we have with a franchise brokerage or wealth advisor, but that was something I was considering moving.

Veronica, your firm doesn't handle that.

No, the life expectancy and all those financial projections, that is squarely within the wheelhouse of a financial advisor.

And when you're dealing with somebody like Erin who has a life-limiting condition, you can often find estate planning attorneys working together with accountants and with financial advisors to craft the best.

estate plan for that person considering their current medical situation.

So if Aaron does not make a will, let's start with the house.

What would happen to the the house, Veronica?

If the house is held as joint tenants with right of survivorship, which is how most real estate is held between married couples, then upon Aaron's passing, should she pass, the house automatically goes to her husband.

So then the husband has to consider what his estate plan will look like now that he is a widower.

So if the house is held as joint tenants with right of survivorship, you don't really need to address it.

However, if Erin wanted to perhaps allow her her mother to live in the house indefinitely, she may want to include provisions in her will and in her trust that allows her mother to live there indefinitely, something akin to a tenancy agreement.

I don't know the dynamic between your husband and your mother, and I won't ask that on this podcast.

But if you have concerns privately about your mother being able to remain there for as long as possible, then your will, but particularly your trust, has to have a clause that allows your mother to remain there indefinitely.

And indefinitely for me means until she has to leave, if she has to, if she passes, or if she can't be taken care of adequately within your home.

But other than those circumstances, she does not have to leave because you don't want her to leave.

And I would also recommend that you have that conversation with your husband before you even talk to an attorney.

And that's another point is you need to write these things down and have them memorialized in a will because those are legally enforceable documents.

But it's equally and I think more important to have these actual conversations with your loved ones face to face because it's one thing to see it in black and white.

It's another to remember having that conversation with a person that you love and care about.

So I always, always emphasize open and honest communication, especially about hard things.

And this is definitely one of those life hard things.

But does Erin need a trust in addition to her will?

I mean, could a trust help make sure that the home goes to her husband first and then her mom if something were to happen to both of them?

Exactly.

So if, let's say, her husband does not outlive her mother, then you would want to make provision in the trust, not only for your mother to be able to live there, but to have the house pass to your mother should your husband pre-decease you but you would also have to have your husband execute his documents alongside you at the same time so that your documents and his documents are identical or almost identical as possible so in simple terms that means you have to make provision for your mother in your estate planning documents and your husband simultaneously should be making plans for you even though you have this diagnosis, but also making provision for his mother-in-law with respect to the house.

If your mother does not have sufficient funds to privately fund her long-term care, then at some point, the possibility of having the house placed in what's called a Medicaid asset protection trust, which is an irrevocable trust for the sole purpose of protecting an asset for Medicaid eligibility, that's a different conversation.

And that's a conversation that can happen down the road, but it's not something that is of immediate concern to you.

It's more of a concern to your mother than it is to you right now.

But if the intent is that you want the house to go to your mother, should something happen to your husband as well, then having a trust absolutely preserves that desire and that wish.

But more importantly, you're avoiding probate and you're also avoiding having to go to surrogate's court.

And if you know anything about surrogate court in New York City, the five boroughs or outside of New York City, not only do they have a tremendous backlog, they don't have sufficient employees and there's a lot of bureaucracy.

And that

basically induces a large expenditure of money, as well as agita.

People become very, very frustrated at having to wait.

for a court to issue letters, for a court to decide a legal issue.

And I think there's a lot of power in executing a trust and addressing these things outside of the court's eyes.

We're definitely not letting Erin and her loved ones go to probate.

Hell no, absolutely not.

I just also want to acknowledge the obvious.

This is a hard conversation.

This is weird.

When I did my trust and will,

it's weird.

Like there are a lot of these types of questions.

We're talking about death.

We're talking about family.

We're talking about relationships between them.

If the worst case scenario happens, but in the context of paperwork and process, I mean, we're trying to be adults here, but it's hard and weird.

So I just want to check in with you, Aaron.

How are you feeling right now?

I feel good.

Yes.

Like I said, I'm so to the point.

So my husband and I have had these very to the point conversations and he's like, oh dear.

I'm like, we have to talk about these things.

It's just, sorry, we've got a plan.

And in my line of work, these are the kinds of conversations that I have with people every single day.

This to me is normal, but I also recognize that different families have different communication styles and that's influenced by multiple factors.

But I think talking about the hard things opens the door to talk about other things within a family unit.

So as hard as it may be, as emotionally difficult or as triggering as it may be to you or to your husband, it's something that I absolutely recommend.

And you can start little by little, but the important thing is to start.

Yes.

She's not only started, but she's putting this out there for everyone else.

It's, it's truly incredible.

So to get back to probate and the hell of that,

we don't want her family involved in that at all.

Is a will enough to bypass probate or she really needs a trust?

No, a will by its very definition is a probate document.

So if you only execute a will, your estate has to go through probate and it has to go through what we call in New York State surrogates court.

So what I recommend to clients of mine is not only executing a will, but also executing a trust.

Because if you have a trust that handles more, most of your, if not all of your assets, whether they're property or liquid or liquid equivalent assets, you have a will that is there as a safety net of sorts.

Because oftentimes what can happen is you may forget to add title of an asset to the trust.

You may take an asset out for some reason and not, you know, reintroduce it into the trust.

Things can happen, especially when you're dealing with a difficult diagnosis and life happens.

So in the event that an asset is not accounted for in the trust or it's not made a beneficiary or the, excuse me, the trust is not made beneficiary of that asset, the will is there to act as a safety net so that it does not fall into intestacy.

And intestacy is when you do not have a will or when the asset itself is not accounted for in a will.

So a will always, but always with the objective of avoiding probate at every cost.

So your recommendation is that Erin create a trust, put the house.

So the beneficiary would basically be the trust.

So the co-trustees would be Erin and her spouse.

The beneficiary of the house and any other assets would be the husband.

A contingent or successor beneficiary would be her mother only under the condition that her husband pre-deceases her specifically.

But when we're addressing the specific issue of her mom, you also need her husband to address it in his estate planning documents because the likelihood of him pre-deceasing Erin is small.

It's never zero, but it's small.

And if that were to happen, he has to have documents that also protect Erin.

and his mother-in-law.

So even though our conversation is really geared towards Erin addressing her assets and protecting her husband and her mom.

It's equally as important for her husband to protect Erin and his mother-in-law at the same time.

How does that sound, Erin?

I get it.

Hold on to your wallets.

Money rehab will be right back.

And now for some more money rehab.

So basically, the trust is a wrapper.

You put a bunch of stuff, all the assets.

So your brokerage would be in the trust.

The retirement accounts would change the beneficiary to be the trust.

Yes.

Right, Veronica, what else?

Yes.

You can also place liquid assets like regular checking accounts, money markets as the beneficiaries or the trust being the beneficiary of those accounts.

Obviously, that would mean opening up new bank accounts.

at your local financial institution wherein the trust is named as the title holder of those monies.

So that when the time comes, all of your assets are now part of the trust and those assets are distributed pursuant to the terms of the trust.

So they're already part of it when the person dies.

They're either titled in the name of the trust or the trust is the beneficiary of those assets.

So in the context of the house, that would require a title change and that would require the consent of the husband to change the title from joint tenants with right of survivorship to the Erin.

I'm not going to say your last name, the Erin, and I'm just going to call your husband John, the Erin and John Doe irrevocable or revocable trust, and then proceed from there because they have to work on these documents together.

In the case of Erin and her husband, because they are young people, they are not yet retirement age.

I never recommend irrevocable trusts because they're exactly what they sound like.

They're irrevocable.

And that is a tool that people use as they're approaching retirement or post-retirement, and specifically if they are trying to protect assets in one way or another.

So in Erin's circumstance, it would be revocable.

With the understanding that Erin's not going to terminate the trust, but it gives her the power to control the trust, to remove or add assets, to modify the terms of the trust whenever she would like.

And if at some point she wanted to terminate it, she can.

And you do not have that kind of flexibility with an irrevocable trust.

But irrevocable trusts, again, are used under different circumstances that are not applicable to Erin.

How does that sound, Erin?

I have more questions for you.

Oh, good.

Yeah.

No, you're probably thinking of things I'm not.

So please fire away.

Okay.

So, so generally, Erin, we want to make sure that your mom is taken care of.

So Veronica, you mentioned a few different tactics that she could look into, into, obviously have these conversations, be super clear about her intentions with her husband and her mom in terms of assets.

So how can Erin structure the trust to provide for her mom?

I mean, can she direct her husband to do things to care for her mom in the trust or in the will, like he has to save money for her health care?

Or is it best practice to divvy up the assets between her mom and her husband?

So Erin's husband and her mother are obviously very differently situated.

Her mother is an older person who is, you know, confronting different issues than her son-in-law.

So generally speaking, her husband would want immediate access or as close to immediate access to whatever Erin decides to leave him.

But when we're talking about the mother, it really depends on, is the mother healthy?

You know, is she independent?

Does she have any neurocognitive deficits right now?

Is it sooner rather than later that she's going to require long-term care?

And if the answer to those questions is no, then Erin can definitely consider leaving a large sum of money to her mother.

And then it would be up to her mother to consult with an attorney of her own choosing to do her own estate planning if she hasn't done it.

So one of the benefits of Erin having this conversation with you and I is that it creates a domino effect.

It gets her to act.

It gets her husband to act.

And inevitably, it will also allow her mother to act to also do some planning of her own.

And that's something that I do strongly recommend.

But if the concern is being able to afford long-term care, and if Erin wants to protect her mother from having excess income or excess assets, then she may want to structure the trust so that her mother is given a set monthly stipend for however long necessary.

and the trust can also dictate that the trustee outlay funds for anything that her mother needs so health meaning medical care medical co-pays medical costs maintenance meaning housing if that was necessary clothing, necessities, travel.

It's as specific or as general as she wants it to be.

And that is something that she would have to discuss with the lawyer that she retains is how specific does she want the language to be because what the trust is essentially is a roadmap for the trustee it tells the trustee i grantor aaron want you to do abc d e f g for this person and this is how i want you to carry out this job so the trust will likely last until her mother dies

with the understanding that her husband would receive whatever she wants him to receive immediately, but that for the purposes of her mother, the trust lasts as long as her mother is alive.

So she should also consider any possible contingent future beneficiaries who are not her husband and not her mother.

I like to cover all my bases.

So I,

anybody she wants, a charity, another family member, a close friend.

It's not likely.

It's not likely that the money will outlast her mother, but you never know.

So I always want people to think of contingent beneficiaries beneficiaries in the event the trust is still funded, which is not likely, but I always do.

Erin, how does that sound?

And separately, you and I will talk about some of the insurance that you might want to think about for your mom, but that sounds like it's outside the scope of what Veronica does.

But how does this idea of how the trust is structured sound to you so far?

Yeah,

I'm on board.

And so I know, Aaron, you also had a question about how your husband would inherit your retirement accounts.

Can you take us through what those accounts are, what you have, and who currently is the beneficiary?

Sure.

So I have my employer-sponsored Roth 401k.

It has a 4% match, and I have my husband listed as a beneficiary.

Outside of that, I have a Roth IRA with a franchise wealth advisor.

And then

we have a non-qualified account with both our names on it.

And he has his own IRA with the same franchise wealth advisor.

And then the bulk of his retirement savings is through his employer as well.

He's a government employee.

So I just wondered, because as an example, when my father-in-law passed away five years ago, my husband now has an inherited IRA.

And I forget the details of that or why that came to be, but what then happens with my retirement accounts?

Like, does he just get a lump sub check?

with the franchise IRA and then my employer sponsored 401k or does it convert convert to an inherited IRA automatically?

I was not clear on that.

So that's slightly outside of my wheelhouse, but what I would recommend to you is that your husband consult with an accountant and a financial advisor so that they can together determine the best way to approach those inherited accounts because there are certain penalties that can be incurred depending on how those funds are dispersed.

So that's slightly outside of my wheelhouse.

i do understand some of the mechanics but it's when it comes to like how people disperse their funds or how they choose to inherit it yeah because i want i want it to be as tax friendly let's say for my husband's benefit okay to inherit you know it's like how what do the rich people do that create tax shelters and that way when he inherits this money and whatever mechanism we use that it's not you know like with his father's inherited ira

he has to take a disbursement every year he's just required to do that so i understand like you were saying some of those mechanics, but I'm just like, why does that have to be?

Or can we not make it so?

And how do we maybe create some kind of tax shelter for him should he inherit this?

Yeah, for sure.

So because he got it from his dad, it would be non-spouse beneficiary.

And generally they have to take out all the money within 10 years.

But when you have a spouse as a beneficiary, you do have more options, including rolling it over to his own IRA.

for instance.

So that's probably the difference there.

But Veronica, I wanted to bring you in as to what she should do with the beneficiary.

Step one, it sounds like set up the trust, name the trust, create who the trustee, who the beneficiaries are, answer all of these questions.

Once you have that set up, then you put Veronica the name of the beneficiary for these retirement accounts as the trust.

Correct.

So the anything like an IRA or a 401k,

a trust cannot be, you can't title those accounts in the name of a trust, but you can name the trust as the beneficiary of those funds.

So when the person dies, essentially you have to fill out paperwork, you present a copy of the death certificate, and then the company issues a check that is sent directly.

You can have it wired.

It can be a paper check and it goes directly into the bank account that is set up for those trust funds.

So for liquid assets, you can title it in the name of the trust.

For real estate, you can title it in the name of the trust.

for anything like a 401k or an ira the trust is the beneficiary so that's the distinction there the trust itself will identify not only who the trustee is but also who gets what it can either be in dollar amounts or it can be in percentages and that's a kind of that's kind of a difficult thing to talk about and i think it really comes down to personal preference some people are much more partial to saying jane Doe will get 25%

of the funds originating from this account.

John Doe will get 50% of the funds.

And then the remainder, if any, is split between these two people.

It really depends on the specific assets held by each individual.

and what their preference is about how they wish to disperse the funds, whether it's a solid dollar amount or whether it's by percentages.

Hold on to your wallets.

Money rehab will be right back.

And now for some more money rehab.

So I actually wanted to ask Erin a question if it's okay.

Have you executed a power of attorney?

No.

Okay.

So I know that this isn't specifically central to the conversation about wills and trusts, but for me in my practice, and I know that I speak for my colleagues, equally as important as a will and a trust is what we call collectively advanced directives.

The power of attorney is the legal document that controls the management of financial property and legal issues.

And the healthcare proxy is what assigns an agent to manage medical care.

And that could be anything from routine medical care, diagnostic exams, major and minor medical procedures, as well as end of life.

So depending on what your religious or spiritual or moral beliefs are, this is also a conversation that you should have with your medical team and also with your husband and your mother about what you consider to be a dignified life, as well as a dignified ending.

You know, dignity is very specific and very personal to each individual.

And what is a dignified life to you may not be a dignified life to somebody else.

So if you have very strong beliefs about what you would like the end of your life to look like and what directions you want your agent, who could either be your husband, your mother, or some other trusted individual in your life, those are things that need to be memorialized in a healthcare proxy.

Oftentimes I've had people say to me, well, what about a living will?

In New York State, living wills are not statutory, meaning they're not codified under law.

They are utilized by people as a complementary document to a healthcare proxy, but the healthcare proxy is what is codified.

That's what's statutory.

So medical providers, your medical team, they will follow the directives as stated in your healthcare proxy and they will follow the directives of the person that you choose to be your agent.

So I wanted to highlight that specifically because of your current medical diagnosis and how important it is to have people in place in the event that you can no longer make decisions for yourself.

And also, on the flip side, with the power of attorney, manage and conserve your assets and provide for you in the way that you desire.

And this is all generally a bundle, right?

Veronica, when I did this, it was like power of attorney, healthcare proxy.

It was just all kind of any attorney,

any attorney worth their salt will not let a client not do all of those documents together.

And I cannot tell you how many times people have come to me and all they have is a will.

And I said, well, did you ever execute this and this and this?

And they're like, No.

And you're not really servicing your client, you're not really servicing the public if you do not, at the very least, explain to people the importance of all of these documents together and why they are not optional.

They're pretty much mandatory if you want to be protected during life and if you want your wishes respected after death.

So, if Aaron or somebody in Aaron's position incurs medical debt.

Okay, so medical debt is essentially something that can be claimed against the estate after Aaron's death.

And what that means is that after letters testamentary are issued or as the trust is being administered, that means that the creditor would be able to file a claim against the estate in surrogate's court.

meaning that they would want the debt to be satisfied.

So the debt survives her life.

The debt is not extinguished upon her death.

So what I tell clients is that most debt is negotiable.

And so that would be up to the trustee or the executor of the estate to negotiate with the creditors with respect to how much of that debt is going to be paid.

And I strongly recommend that if Erin were to accumulate any sort of medical debt, that it be negotiated strenuously by her trustee or her executor.

So basically, we would have to negotiate any outstanding medical debt.

And is all kind of debt not extinguished?

Medical debt is not extinguishable at all.

So I would tell any family that's facing a situation like this that they be prepared to negotiate, specifically talking about people who perhaps are on Medicaid for long-term care.

Medicaid is one of the biggest creditors in the country.

There's certainly a massive creditor here in New York, and it is not unheard of for them to file claims against estate for services that are rendered.

And hospitals do the same.

It's very frequently that they will file a claim against the estate to have any sort of medical debt paid.

So it's very possible that if you have a strong negotiator as a trustee or as an executor, or if you have very strong and capable counsel by your side, that you can negotiate the debt, you know, 25 cents to the dollar or maybe even zero.

You never know unless you actually negotiate.

So I'm very big on clients not capitulating to the asking amount for medical debt because most of those amounts are inflated anyway.

They're inflated amounts.

And I don't think that, I think that debts should be paid if they're owed, obviously, but...

I think a reasonable amount of debt is what needs to be paid, not the over-inflated numbers that really do a number on American families in terms of wiping out savings and leaving them in very, very precarious financial positions.

Yes, 100%.

And we have a lot of episodes on that.

We'll link those in the show notes for anyone who wants to negotiate medical debt and beyond.

I've recorded myself negotiating all sorts of wild debt.

Erin, what else?

How are you feeling?

Any other questions?

I was going to ask if there's a, it's possible to give listeners an estimate of what retaining an attorney to hand handle all of this would cost.

I know it may vary by state, for example, but what could people potentially be in for to have all of this handled?

So in a metropolitan area like New York City and the surrounding counties, just because of the cost of living and wages, et cetera, you'll be looking at anything from

$8,000 and some practitioners charge up to $18,000 for this kind of work.

And it really depends on whether the practitioner

is a solo practitioner, is a member of a small firm, mid-size, large firm.

It also depends on whether or not the person's estate is complicated in terms of potential tax issues or tax consequences.

So whenever you're really talking about very high net worth individuals, it's almost automatic that you're going to get tax planning involved.

And that also means that in addition to flat fees for documents, you're also looking at an hourly rate.

So on the higher end, you're looking in the five figures.

But I would caution anybody listening to not let that dissuade you from pursuing any sort of estate planning, because to me, that is an investment and it's probably one of the best investments that any person can make in themselves and in their family.

And it also just brings a tremendous amount of peace of mind that you were able to accomplish that and that your wishes will be respected whenever that time comes.

And it's also to diminish or completely eliminate any possibility of friction in the family because one of the things that we see very often is when somebody dies, people just act all kinds of ways that are unexpected.

And it's usually tied to grief or it's tied to unresolved issues within the family.

So it's really

on the person who's executing these documents to make sure that those documents are as bulletproof as possible and that it eliminates any sort of objection or potential discord within the family, generally speaking.

I mean, yes, that's that's definitely on the high end.

If somebody has a more straightforward trust and will and advanced directive power attorney bundle,

there are a lot of services that can also do this online.

Erin, we got you.

We're going to hook you up with this.

I want to make sure that you have this taken care of.

I want to pay for it.

We're going to talk offline to figure out how to get all of these set up for you.

I got you.

They're all going to make me cry.

Oh, we're all going to cry.

We're all going to cry.

I'm like, all they did is send a DM.

And this wonderful woman is, that's all they did is send a DM.

And it's just amazing.

What I will say to her, and this is somewhat legal, but it's really coming from me as a person, is

the time to really focus on these issues is now.

I heard you at the beginning of the episode talk about you working full time and really feeling like yourself and at times having to disconnect from your diagnosis.

It goes really back to that saying, you can only control the things that are within your control.

Everything else are things that you really have to surrender to.

you are putting up the good fight with respect to the cancer and you should be, but you should also be living your life.

So I would recommend that you seek out an attorney now.

And I can pretty much guarantee that by the end of the process, you will have felt like a million pounds was lifted off of your shoulders because you are being proactive in your life.

You are taking charge and you are taking control of something that is only within your power to really affect the outcome.

And as I said to you earlier before we started the episode, I wish you peace.

I wish you strength.

I want you to be surrounded by love.

And I want you to lean into the people who love and support you when times get really, really hard.

And it is my hope that the people who love and support you have people who can, they can lean on when the times get really, really hard.

And to be more present in the moment.

And that's something that I tell clients who are facing life-limiting conditions all the time to

be present

but also

ensure that they leave any sort of loose ends tied up because what you don't want to do is leave the people you love a mess that they're going to have to clean up and wilson and i am on your same page thank you thank you you're most welcome erin thank you so much for your time veronica aaron i know this is a lot and there are other things that you want to chat about i want to go through saving for health care costs and what to do with your retirement contributions.

I know you wanted to dig into that a little bit more, but I know we've already done a lot.

So I'm just going to pause and I'm going to send you some of these thoughts when we connect offline and help you get these documents together.

You have not heard the last of me.

So I'm going to connect with you after this offline privately.

Until then, I don't want to be a broken record, but I just want to say thank you again for coming on.

This conversation means the world to me.

You are just my hero.

I think you are absolutely incredible.

And I'm so, so grateful that you slipped into my DMs.

Thank you so much, Nicole.

I am so grateful to Erin for sharing her story with me, with us.

I wanted to do something to thank her and I reached out to the CEO of a company called Trust and Will to get all of her paperwork taken care of at no cost.

I really wanted to make sure that I could do whatever I could in my power to make sure that she's taken care of on the rest of this journey.

This is not a sponsored episode by any means, but if Erin's story has inspired you to get your documents in order for yourself, for a loved one, I've linked that resource in the show notes.

What stayed with me most is Erin's deep thoughtfulness, not just in how she's navigating her diagnosis, but in how she's thinking ahead for the people she loves.

Again and again, she said she wanted to tell her story so that other women get screened for breast cancer.

She wanted to create a trust so that her husband and her mom would be protected.

This isn't what processing a diagnosis looks like for everyone, of course, and that is okay.

But what really blows me away about Erin is how she's thinking about these steps as kind of a love letter to her family.

And we don't normally think about estate planning as a love letter or as kindness.

We think of it as tactical and legal and strategic, a box to check and not a fun one at that.

But Erin reminded me, and hopefully she reminded you, that planning can be an act of love.

Erin's story is so powerful, and I hope you carry it with you the next time you're faced with a hard conversation, a tough decision, or paperwork you've been putting off.

Because behind all of it, there is a deeper question.

What does it mean to take care of the people we love?

Well, Erin just gave us a beautiful answer.

Money Rehab is a production of Money News Network.

I'm your host, Nicole Lappin.

Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Lavoie.

Our researcher is Emily Holmes.

Do you need some money rehab?

And let's be honest, we all do.

So email us your money questions, moneyrehab at moneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one-on-one intervention with me.

And follow us on Instagram at Moneynews and TikTok at MoneyNews Network for exclusive video content.

And lastly, thank you.

No, seriously, thank you.

Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make.