“I’ve Been Stuck in the Same Job For Years. Coach Me!" with Claire Wasserman

Speaker 1 I live in LA now, but lately I have been craving the seasons. Snow, hot cocoa, the whole thing.

Speaker 1 I don't even ski, but I have been daydreaming about working remotely from somewhere really cozy on the East Coast, like a cute little ski town for a little bit.

Speaker 1 And whenever I know I'm going to be gone for a while, I always remind myself that my home can actually be working for me while I'm away because I host my space on Airbnb.

Speaker 1 It is one of the easiest ways to earn passive income from something you already have, and that extra income feels particularly helpful this time of year as we approach the holidays. holidays.

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Speaker 1 I like to give a personal touch when I'm hosting on Airbnb. So I make a list of my favorite restaurants in the area and I hand write a note welcoming my guests to the property.

Speaker 1 My guests love it, but I also know that some of those little personal touches can take a lot of extra time. So this is the exact kind of thing that you would want your co-host to help you with.

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Speaker 2 Here's one piece of advice that I've given for years. Build an emergency fund.
Aim to stash away enough to cover at least three months of expenses in case your income suddenly drops.

Speaker 2 Sounds simple, right? But let's be honest, it's not. Saving even one month's worth of living costs can feel impossible.

Speaker 2 Just when you're making progress, that check engine light blinks on and derails your plans. Life already throws enough curveballs.
You don't need your bank adding to the chaos.

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Speaker 2 Work on your financial goals through QIIME today. Open an account in just two minutes at chime.com/slash MNN.
That's chime.com/slash MNN. Chime feels like progress.

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Members of DIC.

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Speaker 3 Fees apply at out-of-network ATMs, bank ranking, and number of ATMs, according to US News and World Report 2023. Chime, checking account required.

Speaker 2 Here's one piece of advice that I've given for years: build an emergency fund. Aim to stash away enough to cover at least three months of expenses in case your income suddenly drops.

Speaker 2 Sounds simple, right? But let's be honest, it's not. Saving even one month's worth of living costs can feel impossible.

Speaker 2 Just when you're making progress, that check engine light blinks on and derails your plans. Life already throws enough curveballs.
You don't need your bank adding to the chaos.

Speaker 2 That's why it's so important to choose one that makes savings easy and doesn't nibble away at your hard-earned money with ridiculous fees. QIIME understands that every dollar counts.

Speaker 2 That's why when you set up direct deposit through QIIME, you get access to fee-free features like free overdraft coverage, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit, and more.

Speaker 2 With qualifying direct deposits, you're eligible for free overdraft up to $200 on debit card purchases and cash withdrawals. To date, QIIME has spotted members over $30 billion.

Speaker 2 Work on your financial goals through QIIME today. Open an account in just two minutes at chime.com/slash MNN.
That's chime.com slash MNN. Chime feels like progress.

Speaker 3 Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bankor Bank NA or Stripe Bank NA.

Speaker 3 Members, FDIC, spot me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Timing depends on submission of payment file.

Speaker 3 Fees apply at out-of-network ATMs, bank ranking, and number of ATMs, according to US News and World Report 2023. Shine, checking account required.

Speaker 2 I'm Nicole Lapin, the only financial expert you don't need a dictionary to understand.

Speaker 4 It's time for some money rehab.

Speaker 4 Hi, I'm Claire Wasterman, the founder and author of Ladies Get Paid, a podcast coaching practice and newsletter that helps women embrace their worth inside and out.

Speaker 4 I'm so honored to be guest hosting for Nicole while she is out on maternity leave.

Speaker 4 Although, just a bit of a heads up, my hosting style is different in that I don't just interview guests, I actually coach them.

Speaker 4 And today, I'm going to be talking to Jay, who has been stuck in the same role with the same pay for the past four years.

Speaker 4 So, this episode is perfect for anybody who is looking to grow, grow their paycheck, grow their title, grow their skill set.

Speaker 4 I'll be giving you and Jay practical strategies for your next move. Let's dive in.

Speaker 4 Hey, Jay, thanks so much for being here with me today. If you could give me a little bit of context to the situation that you're in and how I could best support you, I'll do my best to support you.

Speaker 4 That sounds awesome. Yeah, so I'm Jay.
I work

Speaker 4 for a multinational global analytics and decision tools company, and specifically in the education sphere with medical education.

Speaker 4 So there's all sorts of different things that we do, but I primarily work on a software. I'm a product owner or product manager.

Speaker 4 Probably part of my problem is that we're kind of in flux between those two titles at the moment. But I've worked at this position for about four years.

Speaker 4 I started very inexperienced and certainly underqualified. My former boss basically suggested that I should go into this role.

Speaker 4 And I really appreciated his push because I would not have taken that step without it. But that means that I came in feeling already very underqualified.

Speaker 4 And so I think that's definitely contributed to how I currently feel pretty stagnant in my role. I've definitely learned a lot.

Speaker 4 I don't think that I've been like, you know, behind on anything, but it's, I don't feel necessarily like I've had great coaching up to this point in terms of like career growth.

Speaker 4 I think in terms terms of the specific role and like what I do on a daily basis, I think I'm killing it. I get good feedback, but in terms of how do I, like, what's the next step?

Speaker 4 Where do I go from here? I feel comfortable, but I also want,

Speaker 4 I mean, I would like raise.

Speaker 4 I would like, you know, maybe the next level up on my title. And so I just haven't quite figured out how to prove that, how to navigate the corporate structure, those kinds of things.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 4 I got very excited when you said the kind of company that you work for, because I think we can make a good connection for the last guest that I coach on this podcast, who is a nurse looking to go into healthcare tech.

Speaker 4 Oh, awesome. But hey, if anything, you know, maybe I can't help you, but I got to help the other woman.
So

Speaker 4 maybe she could replace you when you leave. No, let's not have you leave just yet.

Speaker 4 okay it kind of boils down to two things here it's how you see yourself and how others see you is a big area i want to focus on today but before i got dive in too deep let me just clarify and confirm everything that you're looking to figure out right now

Speaker 4 You are in a company that's a little bit bureaucratic, it seems, right? It's global, it's big. Okay, so it's bureaucratic.

Speaker 4 So there's a process at this company to move up and you're not quite sure what that process is, right? Yep. Okay.
So there's moving up within your company. So that's a title change and a raise.
Okay.

Speaker 4 And then there's the moving on, you know, so maybe exploring opportunities either in other departments or at other companies. Have you gone down that path at all yet? I have.

Speaker 4 I think I've been comfortable with where I am and I'm okay that I have,

Speaker 4 that I've been a little stagnant. But I think once I start to think through what the future looks like, I'm open to

Speaker 4 other

Speaker 4 opportunities. But I know that there's still a lot that's possible at my current job.

Speaker 4 So it's kind of just depends on, on how I can figure out how to like best advocate for myself in my current situation. And then I think that would also help me prepare if I was going to make a change.

Speaker 4 Okay. So there's not like a secret dream here, right? Like, oh, you've been wanting to, you know, work at some other company or start a business and you're just kind of denying yourself that.
Okay.

Speaker 4 So it's really more the comfortability that you mentioned. All right.
You're comfortable. What made you,

Speaker 4 you know, if you're comfortable, why not keep on keeping on? Like, what, what makes you want to make a change? I think that, as I mentioned, I started as like an underqualified person.

Speaker 4 And I know that can sound imposter syndrome-y, but I do, I know that I was recommended for this job that I wasn't quite ready for. And so I know that my starting salary is lower than like market.

Speaker 4 And so I would at least like to

Speaker 4 get bumped up with my salary. And I, the only way that I really see that happening is for me to really make a strong case for why I'm ready for the next level.
Okay.

Speaker 4 All right. Let's work backwards first from how to get a salary bump and potentially potentially title change at the current job.
So, first thing, market research.

Speaker 4 I need you to know exactly how much somebody who is very similar to you makes the best way to do this is to go look up the competitor companies to where you currently are and find somebody who works there, preferably a white male.

Speaker 4 Those are the ones who make the most, right? So, let's just not be comparing, you know, to necessarily other women.

Speaker 4 Go and message them on LinkedIn and say, Hey, I've been doing some research and I'm worried that we all might be underselling ourselves here. I want to confirm, you know, a market range.

Speaker 4 I think it should be around this.

Speaker 4 Would you be willing to share either your salary or the ballpark or, you know, and this is a great way to be an ally or just, you know, showing them that if we can all be a little bit more transparent about how much we make, we take the power back from the employers, where, by the way, it used to be illegal to talk about this because we would then ask for a raise.

Speaker 4 That law doesn't exist anymore. So take advantage of that.
And also, I think a lot of men are looking for ways to be allies allies, to be helpful. It's also good networking, right?

Speaker 4 Because maybe you end up wanting to go to the competitor company. Who knows? So you understand the market research.
You're going to see there's a range.

Speaker 4 I know you already know there's a range, but you are no longer at the bottom of the range anymore.

Speaker 4 Right. You have those years of experience, but it's not just how many years of experience, it's what you did during those years.
So that brings me to the next point.

Speaker 4 Have you documented over the past couple of years

Speaker 4 all the wins you've had, you know, the time you've saved in making processes more efficient or projects you've worked on and what, you know, the results were and that impact on the business bottom line.

Speaker 4 Like, do you have any of these numbers written down anywhere?

Speaker 4 I have some of them. I think I feel like my strengths and the best feedback I get are on more of the soft skills.
And so I know that I am making a difference to the bottom line, but in terms of how to

Speaker 4 prove that, I definitely get stuck. Okay.
Yep. And it's, I don't mean to make it sound so simple, but it is as straightforward as

Speaker 4 I did this thing. Here's how I did it, right? The problem solving.
And then it's all the soft skills that go into the problem solving, right?

Speaker 4 Like the act of listening, empathy, the resourcefulness, et cetera. And literally saying, here's how it impacted the results.
You know, so we could workshop this out right now.

Speaker 4 What, what is something in the last year that you are particularly proud of? And or you know that it's a win that, you know, your boss or your boss's boss would feel good to know that this happened?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, we've shipped one very large new product that I got to work on from start to finish. So that was a really big deal.

Speaker 4 But the problem, the problem with that in terms of me being able to brag about it is that I'm the junior product manager on that role.

Speaker 4 And so the day-to-day stuff, like, yeah, I was totally in charge of that. But in terms of the big decisions, they weren't my calls.

Speaker 4 So the, the level to which I'm able to like, you know, prove that I'm leveling up when someone else was over me feels messy. I know.

Speaker 4 And that's why you're not getting paid what they're getting paid, right?

Speaker 4 But you should still be getting paid more than what you were making because you have unfortunately fallen into what happens to people who've been at companies for a long time, especially if they started at the lower lower level, they get those incremental raises, right?

Speaker 4 Those merit-based raises that are like, I don't know, 2%.

Speaker 4 And it doesn't even come up with inflation.

Speaker 4 And if you started beneath market rate, you will never catch up. This is a reason for the wage gap, okay? So it really, really is critical that you get that bump.

Speaker 4 But remember, it's not like you are necessarily going from where you used to be to now where this senior person is.

Speaker 4 You just need to get higher within your range and then a plan to continually move up, which we'll talk about in just a minute.

Speaker 4 So I want to talk to you about this phenomenon of, because you're not the only one who has mentioned this to me, I wasn't the decision maker.

Speaker 4 Like I know I had impact, you know, I know I contributed, but it wasn't ultimately my decision or my ownership.

Speaker 4 Well, you know, how much quote credit can I take or how do I articulate my contribution in an authentic way while also still honoring the hierarchy that exists. Again, I.

Speaker 4 These are good questions to ask, but I think it's pretty straightforward. You literally say that.

Speaker 4 I mean, you don't have to say i didn't make any decision right no need to like you know take take away from what we've done but it is taking ownership at least over what we had ownership over right right and by the way the people on the top or the people who are making those decisions they are only as good as the people who are running the day-to-day beneath them like companies are only as successful as the people who work for them I want to say that again because I think that's very important for us all to remember when we are feeling disempowered, or by the way, being made to feel disempowered.

Speaker 4 Companies, products, businesses are only as good as the people who work for them. And that includes you.
That includes you. And so, anything that you do, there's a domino effect.

Speaker 4 It impacts another person or another team who then is able to make the decisions or, you know, get the clients or whatever, right? So it's not that you are bragging or not bragging.

Speaker 4 It's really saying, this was my role in the project.

Speaker 4 how you did it, what you learned from it, how you made it better,

Speaker 4 and then the results. Ultimately, and you know, yes, it was a successful ship, but maybe even take it the next step.
What was the global impact of that? So you might say, okay, we got it out the door.

Speaker 4 Great, success. Here was the response.
And if you could try to find all the ways there was a response, whether it was number of downloads, the reviews, right?

Speaker 4 So you can get kind of qualitative here too. So it's not just lots of people loved it, but like, what did they say? Maybe there was press, and then maybe all that got leveraged for something else.

Speaker 4 I don't know. I mean, this could be some investigative work here, but like, was there more investment that came in? Were you able to land another client or sponsor or partner?

Speaker 4 You know, did the CEO get to speak at a conference? Did they talk about this product that got shipped?

Speaker 4 Like, nothing happens really in a vacuum, which we can sometimes feel that it does if we are in a more sort of bureaucratic environment, that sort of cog on the wheel experience.

Speaker 4 And you've got to see how, again, even if you feel small or are made to feel small, there is a ripple effect, or as I said, a domino effect.

Speaker 4 And it is on you to chart that and to tell that in a concise and compelling way. And none of that is mutually exclusive with the fact that you are still on the more junior side.

Speaker 4 You can be junior and still have ownership over your domain.

Speaker 4 Before I continue to ramble and then talk about how to propel this, how to kind of leverage it for propelling us forward, any thoughts or feelings on all of that? I think that makes complete sense.

Speaker 4 And being able to articulate my contributions to the greater whole as a junior is like probably the biggest gap.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 by the way,

Speaker 4 the very act of doing that will, well, first of all, make you feel more confident because you're like, well, hold on. I did all that.
Okay. Okay.
But also, it makes you look really good.

Speaker 4 It makes you look like a leader. It makes you look self-aware.
And it also makes you look really empathetic to the business needs, which brings me to my next point.

Speaker 4 If you want to move forward, by the way, is there opportunity to move forward in this company? You know,

Speaker 4 okay. And do you have an interest in continuing on the path that you currently are in or maybe exploring other departments? Or yeah, talk to me a little bit about.

Speaker 4 either things that you have felt about how you could move up or maybe you've witnessed another colleague making some kind of pivot within the company. I'm curious.

Speaker 4 Give me more context if you don't mind. Yeah, for sure.
So a lot, I would say the majority of people that I work with within my department and across are long-term employees.

Speaker 4 And I definitely have seen lots of opportunities for growth and lots of people getting, you know, promoted or switching departments. And it's very flexible.
And our product team is very collaborative.

Speaker 4 And so I feel like there's definitely room to grow and places for me to grow.

Speaker 4 And then, as I mentioned before, because it's such a large company, I'm definitely open to also transferring into a different sphere within the greater organization.

Speaker 4 And I think that my manager and the people that I work with are open

Speaker 4 to helping me get to those places. But I don't have a strong sense of,

Speaker 4 I've been satisfied with what I've been doing. So I haven't felt like I need to, you know, change.

Speaker 4 And by the way, we're not changing right now. All we're doing is exploring.

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Speaker 2 And now for some more money rehab.

Speaker 4 I'm gonna give you some next steps for information that you can gather. I think a lot of people get very stressed when they think about the prospect of change.

Speaker 4 They get stressed for a lot of reasons, but one of the reasons that we get stressed, it's because we actually lack information about how to make that change. So the change itself isn't even daunting.

Speaker 4 It's really just the process. And you don't even know what the process is unless you gather some information.
first.

Speaker 4 So there's kind of what you know and what you don't know. So let's talk about what you know and what you know is yourself to a certain degree, to a certain degree.

Speaker 4 So these are the things I'd love for you to reflect on. And if you have any thoughts, feel free to share.
What are the things that when you do them, you really light up, really light up?

Speaker 4 And of course, it makes it easier if it's work related, but just think kind of generally you as a person, not just as an employee.

Speaker 4 you know the the the things you do you light up and what is so interesting about exploring those experiences is you can see ah what's the environment that helps me do the work that makes me light up?

Speaker 4 What are the strengths and skills that I'm using to make me light up? What are the problems that I'm solving that make me light up?

Speaker 4 Now, if you're, I don't think this is you, but I think there's some other people watching or listening who are thinking, it's been a while since I lit up.

Speaker 4 Like, I'm just very unmotivated and not into what I'm doing. That's when I would say go back way in time to childhood.

Speaker 4 And seriously, there are very good clues from back in the day when you were just doing things for the sheer joy and pleasure and curiosity of it okay but sounds like you're in a pretty good place so i would think back now all right in the last few years and it could be everything from you really like the experience of preparing and delivering a presentation or you really liked going to this conference or you know so they could be moments in time this doesn't have to be oh this project i worked on right it could really you know, or or like, I liked being on a team.

Speaker 4 I like this environment or process or these kinds of details are very important. As we say, the sort of devil is in the details here.

Speaker 4 So as you're doing this reflection, just write down there's no wrong answer.

Speaker 4 The reason I'm having you do this first is these become kind of the foundation upon which you're building the rest of the house. So you know what you want to carry with you, right?

Speaker 4 We want you to activate these kinds of strengths in this sort of environment.

Speaker 4 And then as we take the next step of figuring out people to talk to both internally, okay, so at the company, but also externally, when you start to explore what's out there, you can now filter it.

Speaker 4 Ah, if I take this next step, will I be leveraging these talents to the best of my ability?

Speaker 4 You know, or

Speaker 4 is this skill set I have in this next role, would it be a nice to have?

Speaker 4 Like, I remember a friend once said to me, and we came home from an event, she said, Claire, you know, your ability to connect with people and to network, you really take it for granted.

Speaker 4 And not only do you take it for granted, you're not even monetized. Like you should monetize this.

Speaker 4 Like you should make this a front and center aspect of what you do for a living, both in terms of your role and even companies you look like.

Speaker 4 And from then on, I only worked for companies that literally the job was to network. The companies themselves were networks, were professional networks.

Speaker 4 And I was the person marketing and fundraising to help people connect. So I really listened to this one, you know, this friend of mine who said this to me.
So that'd be the first step. Second step is,

Speaker 4 What are you curious about? This is all about learning.

Speaker 4 I like to think about work as if it were school and not school in like oh school because i actually really didn't like school that much but more school of life like we are getting our mba

Speaker 4 and it is now our time to write up the curriculum what do we want to learn in our mba and here's what's kind of awesome is instead of us paying for the mba they're paying us right like you were getting paid to go to school that's how i i think of work like you were just here to learn and in learning you have to deliver you're doing projects you've got senior thesis right like you're you got teams you know you're getting your you're you know an a plus or not right you're getting the feedback like there's a lot of structures and similarities here so we want to build the curriculum and this is a cliche but i'm going to say it anyway you don't know what you don't know you don't even know what opportunities are out there unless you put yourself there

Speaker 4 unless you

Speaker 4 get exposure somehow to something or somebody who's simply interesting to you. And let yourself be open-minded.
Let yourself be curious.

Speaker 4 And if there's a, let's say, a person at your company, you just kind of admire them.

Speaker 4 Like they've either risen up in the ranks or they totally pivoted or came from a different background or feel similar to you, right? There's somebody.

Speaker 4 Start there, especially a person who has changed, right? Or it's done any kind of path that looks somewhat similar to you or something you admire.

Speaker 4 I would love to hear from them how they did it. And then I want to hear more about their job, right? What do they do and what do they not like about what they do?

Speaker 4 What skills and strengths and expertises do they really leverage in that job?

Speaker 4 Gathering this kind of information will help you, A, make a better decision about what your next move will be, and B, how to make a compelling case that you are indeed ready for this.

Speaker 4 Or C, you'll discover, actually, I want this. I'm not ready for it.
Okay, now we can make a plan for how to get ready for it. Based off of all that, tell me what you're thinking, what you're feeling.

Speaker 4 That's really great. I've been taking notes.
I definitely have a couple people, primarily the person I work most closely with, the senior product person that I'm working under. I admire her a lot.

Speaker 4 And I think this is a good,

Speaker 4 she's not my manager, and she's very busy. So I've been hesitant to, you know, I'm not like necessarily

Speaker 4 trying to ask her to be like my quote-unquote mentor or take up more time.

Speaker 4 But I think this is a great kind of reminder that I, I have already identified that I really admire her and that I would like to know more about her path. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And I actually told her earlier, I used the words, I really admire how you did that. And so I think this is a great like

Speaker 4 obvious push, like you need to put myself out there a little bit more to ask her about her path and to kind of better steward my time with her so that I can actually learn more.

Speaker 4 Yeah, but I think you bring up a very valid and important point, which is people are busy and we don't want to bother them. So I want to actually work backwards from that for a second.

Speaker 4 When you reach out to somebody who I'll just say has influence, right?

Speaker 4 Or somebody you want something from and you're like, oh, I know they're busy or whatever. Well, first of all, before you reach out, think about is there anything that you can do for them?

Speaker 4 Now, in your case, it's a little bit different because it sounds like you already are just sort of a helpful person to her anyway, and you have somewhat of a relationship, right?

Speaker 4 So, this is maybe a different use case than a person who wants to reach out to somebody they've never met before, right?

Speaker 4 But one way to help another person is

Speaker 4 this isn't going to be a totally random idea. I'm throwing out there.

Speaker 4 It may not apply to you, but hopefully, it inspires you to start thinking creatively about how to connect with people of influence.

Speaker 4 Can you recommend them for a conference or a podcast if you feel like that's something that would make sense for them, right?

Speaker 4 For example, if anyone wants to reach out to me and is like, hey, I could connect you with this conference. I think you'd be a great speaker.
I mean, that might be money in my pocket.

Speaker 4 And it didn't take you more than like five minutes potentially to do that.

Speaker 4 I mean, of course, there's like an etiquette to making kinds of connections, et cetera, but that's you bringing value in a way that doesn't take much time and effort, but has a big positive impact on the other person.

Speaker 4 So just before anybody reaches out to anyone else, just think, is there something I could do for them? Or it could be as simple as they posted on LinkedIn, you reshare it or you comment.

Speaker 4 Again, so I don't want anyone like saying, let me volunteer and work for this person for free. Like we don't have to do anything big to have a positive impact on another person.
Okay.

Speaker 4 So think about that. Second, when you ask her to connect with you, I want you to give her a timeframe.
Say, I'd love 15 minutes of your time. I 20 minutes of your time.

Speaker 4 You're probably going to speak for much longer, but when you give people that short period, they can now visualize how it will fit into their schedule and they're much more likely to say yes. Okay.

Speaker 4 You also want to have very specific questions prepared. By the way, you could say, hey, I'm happy to send you my questions beforehand if that would be helpful, right?

Speaker 4 I know your time is really valuable. And by the way, Jay, like you may be listening to me going, this sounds way more formal than I need to be with this person.
Totally.

Speaker 4 Do whatever makes sense for the dynamic that you have.

Speaker 4 I just want to always say what I feel like kind of the framework that would be the correct etiquette in all of this, but tailor it for your situation, of course.

Speaker 4 And by the way, in your case, right, you may not want to come out and say,

Speaker 4 I want to like leave or I want to like move into a different position. Or maybe you do feel comfortable saying that, but you might want to navigate kind of carefully here, right?

Speaker 4 We don't want this getting back to your boss or because they don't want to lose you. So instead, it's really more about,

Speaker 4 first of all, I've been very, I love what I do. I'm really inspired by the path.
Like you start with, here's why I love what I do, or like the positive aspects of what you do and what you've learned.

Speaker 4 And then you say a specific part of what you've either observed about yourself, about the company, about the industry that intrigues you.

Speaker 4 Like I've noticed in my time here or in, you know, networking or doing research, whatever, connecting with this client, I really am interested in the X, Y, and Z.

Speaker 4 I know that that's something that you focus on or or has been part of your story.

Speaker 4 I'm really curious. And then you can figure out your next question, but usually it boils down to

Speaker 4 like, what is

Speaker 4 one thing that you feel like

Speaker 4 was such a necessary lesson for you

Speaker 4 to either get to this place or to have overcome this challenge or have excelled in this area, whatever it is, right?

Speaker 4 People love talking about themselves, but you're not getting, you're not starting too granular, Like you're starting specific enough. You're giving context to why you're asking.

Speaker 4 You're making it positive. You're tying it to the other person, right? Here's why I admire you, but you're not saying, well, how did you?

Speaker 4 And it's so specific that like it kind of ends the conversation. We want to see where it goes.

Speaker 4 And so by teeing them up by like the biggest lesson you learned in tackling this thing or whatever it is, it is probably a nice way to begin.

Speaker 4 And then you can see by the end of the conversation, if you want to be a little bit more transparent, like I'm feeling the itch to grow, you know, to grow my responsibilities, to grow my skills and hey, grow my paycheck.

Speaker 4 This is the area I think I want to focus in, but I'm also aware that you don't know what you don't know. And this is when maybe you say to them, what questions do you think I should be asking?

Speaker 4 What questions do you think I should be asking? Or what have I not asked you that if you were me, you would do?

Speaker 4 And this is also another line to say, if you were in my position, what would you do?

Speaker 4 Maybe not, that doesn't quite make sense for this interaction you're having with the person that you want to talk to but in general when we say if you were in my shoes how would you be approaching this or like how how would you be thinking about this it literally is kind of enforcing empathy on them now they are like you and you are like them and when we establish that kind of empathy we are establishing a deeper connection.

Speaker 4 And when people see themselves in each other, they naturally want to help one another. So you never have to feel like I'm bothering them or, you know, there's nothing you have to do.

Speaker 4 You just have to be. You just have to be smart.
You have to be curious. And then you have to follow up.
That's the big one. Afterwards, obviously thanking them, but this is really, really strategic.

Speaker 4 Send them a line that they mentioned or a note that you took that really stood out to you. It struck me when you said,

Speaker 4 and just write that. That shows that you were paying attention.
Because like I mentioned before of, hey, only 20 minutes of your time, right? Demonstrating that you respect their time.

Speaker 4 Respecting somebody's time is respecting their life. Okay.
It's respecting their presence. All we have is our time, really, and energy.
When you say this thing you mentioned, it really struck me.

Speaker 4 Hey, I was listening. That shows even another level of respect.

Speaker 4 And then keep them updated. Doesn't have to be in a week or two weeks.
I would, you know, just a month or once every quarter. Hey, I made progress in this way.
It doesn't have to be a big update.

Speaker 4 It's really more of a, I'm still thinking of you and I wanted to thank you again. I just blathered on for quite a bit there.
So tell me, Jay, thoughts, feelings, next steps that you can envision.

Speaker 4 No, I think that's so helpful because I do work with this person daily,

Speaker 4 but I have been hesitant on how to connect with them further.

Speaker 4 And so this is like perfect advice for

Speaker 4 me, even

Speaker 4 yeah, even just

Speaker 4 thinking through what kinds of questions do do I really have and how can I be more useful to her? And what, yeah, what can I do for her to improve that relationship? Yeah.

Speaker 4 And always, you know, what can I do for another person? Always put it through the lens of that won't take me much time, you know, or that's like easy for me to do.

Speaker 4 The other thing to be on the lookout for as you start having conversations with her, and by the way, if it feels appropriate at the end to say, is there anyone that you really admire or you've really learned from that you think I could learn from?

Speaker 4 And that might be, you know, she may recommend a book or a person.

Speaker 4 The best thing would be actually if she connected you with another person, and she probably will, because you'll have teeter up quite nicely for it.

Speaker 4 But what you want to do in these conversations is to figure out, is there growth in this area?

Speaker 4 And that's why I'm having you on today's podcast, which, you know, technically the filter is money, right? Like money rehab is the podcast.

Speaker 4 And today we talked a little bit about salary negotiation, but it was more about work and, you know, upward trajectory because that equals money.

Speaker 4 I want to know, though, what's the ceiling on how much you can make? Right. There's a reason, many reasons that a wage gap exists.

Speaker 4 And one of them is a lot of times women are just not in roles that are highly compensated and or they are on career paths that there's just a ceiling on it.

Speaker 4 Like they're even if they get to the top, like it just is never going to be compensated the way they want. So we've got some decisions that we have to make.
Not today. You're not ready for it.

Speaker 4 You're just gathering information right now. But as you do that, I want you to know what's the runway on this kind of position, right? Like who's getting promoted?

Speaker 4 How long does it take to get promoted? You know, what does it look like to get to the top?

Speaker 4 What does it mean to get to the top? What are the paychecks associated? Also, is this an industry or a role that isn't growing? Are these jobs starting to be outsourced to AI?

Speaker 4 If so, does that mean you don't go down that path? Not necessarily. Maybe you become the person who's really fluent in AI, right?

Speaker 4 Like you have your skill set and now you're the person who can say, I'm like a Swiss army knife, right? I got X, Y, and Z other skill sets, you know, and this is part of the information gathering.

Speaker 4 How do I make a roadmap out of it? Like, cause at the end of it, you're going to have all these conversations and hopefully they leave you with more clarity than confusion.

Speaker 4 But you'll say, all right, I have an area I think I want to go in, whether it's an industry, a department, or a role. Great.
You're not ready to make the decision yet. Okay.

Speaker 4 What does the top look like? And it doesn't mean that you want to or have to get there, but just seeing what the possibilities for growth and also what will be the roadblocks to those growth.

Speaker 4 All the reason I'm saying this is so that you make your decision with your eyes wide open. And it's not necessarily knowing everything, but it's understanding options.

Speaker 4 Like if you're, let's say you wanted to make a company, right? You wanted to start a company.

Speaker 4 A question that a lot of people will probably ask you, maybe not a lot, but I was certainly asked when I started.

Speaker 4 And by the way, this was like, I was brainstorming in my journal and people were going, do you want to sell your company? I'm like, I don't have an LLC, like, I literally have a journal with ideas.

Speaker 4 And they're like, Okay, but you should work backwards from knowing, Do you want to get acquired? or

Speaker 4 and I think sometimes those questions are just too intimidating at the very beginning, but they are something to remember: which is what does a potential end game look like for all of this.

Speaker 4 And the only reason I ask you to think about this is so that as you are starting to make some moves down the path,

Speaker 4 you are not surprised and you know how to leverage it. Meaning, I understand that if I go down this path, I probably will only be able to make up to X amount.
I don't want to become the top, top, top.

Speaker 4 That doesn't interest me. That person has no life.
Like what's required for it, the sacrifices required, not interesting or not aligned with my values. No worries.

Speaker 4 I am going to use this next two, three years of my life in this position to get another job, actually.

Speaker 4 And I may not not know what that next job is, but I know that the skills I'm developing, the networks that I'm cultivating, they are valuable. I'm learning things.
Doors are opening.

Speaker 4 I'm aware of trends. That's all.

Speaker 4 So again, it's not that you have to have the plan perfectly set out, but it's an awareness of the important things to be considering because they all matter holistically.

Speaker 4 It's never just the paycheck, the reason you say yes to something, or just the boss, or just like it should all be considered through a lens of what are my goals and values.

Speaker 4 And if I can consider now all of these aspects of this next move, does that feel right to me?

Speaker 4 Hopefully that didn't just throw a whole bunch of stuff at you that now you're like, oh God, I have to know all this stuff. It's just like, again, information gathering.

Speaker 4 What are all the questions that I can be asking, if not of one person, because that's too much. What are like the five, six, 10 people that I can be learning from?

Speaker 4 Again, whether you talk to them specifically or you're reading their posts on LinkedIn or listening on a podcast or reading a book,

Speaker 4 make your curriculum, make your curriculum to decide the MBA you want to get. And then once you start getting that MBA, again, it's like, do I want to transfer schools?

Speaker 4 Like, what do I want to learn now? Tell me thoughts, feelings. I feel like we got to a pretty good place.
And I'm happy to answer anything else or clarify. Or do you feel like there's

Speaker 4 obstacles in any way that you're going to encounter? Like, we can dig into that as we close up today.

Speaker 4 No, I just feel like I got the confidence boost of like, okay, I've been maybe not reactive, but almost like asleep of like, what are my options?

Speaker 4 Like you said, in the information, I think you were spot on. I'm not ready to make a change, but I do need to know what the options are.
I feel so much more confident when I know what the options are.

Speaker 4 And I feel like I'm empowered to actually, you know, take whatever the next step is. And so

Speaker 4 I feel like that was perfectly tailored to my situation.

Speaker 4 And as you're gathering this information, because it may become overwhelming, you just continually come back to, well, what's most important to me?

Speaker 4 And not for life, because we don't know what's going to happen, right?

Speaker 4 So for this chapter of my life, the next three years, let's just say, maybe three to five, but three years, or even just this next year. what's most important to me?

Speaker 4 And, you know, maybe it's money, right? And that's cool. it should be, it could be, but it doesn't have to be.

Speaker 4 So, maybe what's next is more responsibilities or more responsibilities in a certain area, or more learning, you know, and maybe what we're doing is now asking your boss to pay for you to, I don't know, go to take a class of some kind or whatever.

Speaker 4 Like, it's just like a little building block towards something greater. And you don't necessarily have to know what the something greater is to start putting the pieces together.

Speaker 4 So, yeah, what's most important to me? And also, by the way, lifestyle, very, very important.

Speaker 4 In all of these conversations that you're having or research that you're doing, just what's going to be required of you. I had used the word sacrifice earlier and I want to use it again.

Speaker 4 Every choice has a trade-off. It always does, right? You're doing this, that means you're not doing that, right?

Speaker 4 So just be clear that when you are receiving this information, asking, yeah, why is this important? But like, what does this mean? What will this mean for me?

Speaker 4 And what might this mean for me in a sacrifice, potential sacrifice, whether it's your time energy travel you know money or whatever just as long as you're not you know just don't sacrifice your yourself okay on that note

Speaker 4 thank you thank you jay for being here super appreciate you i hope this is helpful i think it was not just to you but to everybody watching and listening very appreciate your honesty your vulnerability and keep us posted i i think you got this i know you got this

Speaker 2 money rehab is a production of money news network i'm your host nicole Lappin. Money Rehab's executive producer is Morgan Lavoie.
Our researcher is Emily Holmes. Do you need some money rehab?

Speaker 2 And let's be honest, we all do.

Speaker 2 So email us your money questions, moneyrehab at moneynewsnetwork.com to potentially have your questions answered on the show or even have a one-on-one intervention with me.

Speaker 2 And follow us on Instagram at MoneyNews and TikTok at Money News Network for exclusive video content. And lastly, thank you.
No, seriously, thank you.

Speaker 2 Thank you for listening and for investing in yourself, which is the most important investment you can make.