Visionary Kibbitzer: TSLA, X, KKR

For enterprise organizations, managing all your food needs is a tall order.

But with EasyCater, you get a single workplace food vendor with the tools and resources to make it easy, giving teams across your organization an easy way to order from a huge variety of restaurants, all on one platform, all while consolidating your corporate food spend so you can control costs, streamline billing and payment, and simplify reporting.

EasyCater, your business tool for food.

To learn more, visit easycater.com/slash podcast.

These days, AI can help you adopt better time management, but it can't stop colleagues booking meetings during lunch.

But how about being able to easily adopt industrial AI to streamline your business?

Siemens Accelerator helps you find the right AI providers and easily understand what they offer.

So you can use modular solutions to quickly scale up and grow your business.

That's AI for Real from the global market leader in industrial AI, Siemens.

Learn more on usa.seemens.com/slash AI.

Running small and medium-sized businesses is hard work.

Business owners need to be sure their ads are working just as hard as they do.

Amazon streaming TV ads makes your marketing dollar work harder.

With Amazon ads, trillions of insights help small and medium businesses reach the right customers that matter.

Your ads will show up during the shows the people are actually watching.

And measurement tools show you what's working the hardest.

Gain the edge with Amazon Ads.

Bloomberg Audio Studios.

Podcasts, radio, news.

Hello, and welcome to the Money Stuff Podcast, your weekly podcast where we talk about stuff related to money.

I'm Matt Levine, and I write the Money Stuff column for Bloomberg Opinion.

And I'm Katie Greyfeld, a reporter for Bloomberg News and an anchor for Bloomberg Television.

Elon Musk.

Elon Musk.

When was the last time we talked talked about this man?

More than a week ago.

Yeah, it's.

I'm probably lying.

It's been a minute.

It's been a minute.

Let's talk about him.

We've talked about the Elon Musk premium before that's been built into the stock of Tesla.

I've asked the question: I mean, does Tesla still need Elon Musk?

It sounds like the board was, according to the Wall Street Journal, was also asking that question.

There's two very distinct questions, which are like,

does Tesla, the car company, benefit from having Elon Musk as CEO?

And then there's the question of like, does Tesla, the multi-hundred billion dollar stock, benefit from having Elon Musk as CEO?

I think those questions have very different answers, right?

Like I think that if you were like, hey, here's this company that's selling cars and its CEO is in the business of like making the people who buy its cars hate him and also not paying any attention to the company because he's doing 10 different other things, you might be like, hey, let's get get a new CEO.

But then if you look at the stock and you think about what would happen to the stock if Elon Musk wasn't the CEO, I think it would go down.

Yeah.

It's funny because if we were talking about a normal company with a very distracted CEO, of course you would expect that the board would be engaging firms to help look for a new CEO.

Tesla obviously is not.

a normal company and this is a special situation.

Right.

And I should say that Tesla has denied reports that it's looking for a new CEO.

The Law Servicer reported that some members of the board had reached out to executive search firms.

So you can sort of square that circle by saying, yeah, some board members are curious about the possibility of a new CEO, but there's not a formal process by the board to engage a search firm, right?

It's like somewhere in between.

Right.

Even though it's not a normal company, you would think that the board, when faced with this extremely distracted CEO, would look into a new CEO, even if they don't want a new CEO, just to be like, hey, buddy, could you spend a little more time with Tesla?

Like, I think that it's very clear that the board would like him to spend more time with Tesla and the shareholders would like him to spend more time with Tesla.

And probably the customers and many voters in the United States would all like him to spend more time with Tesla.

So as a way to put pressure on him to spend more time with Tesla, like, does this work?

Maybe?

I mean, we know that investors want him to spend more time with Tesla because after the earnings call in which he said, I'm going to spend more time with Tesla, significantly more time starting in May.

The stock popped.

So the reaction was clear.

But I don't know.

You think about the timing of this Wall Street Journal report when they were asking this question and potentially, you know, talking with firms about initiating a search.

It seems like that happened before that earnings call where Elon Musk said that.

So.

Yeah, I mean, there's been.

conversations with him about spending more time with Tesla.

Yeah.

The only thing is like, this is not an all-or-nothing decision, right?

The model is kind of Twitter, where Elon Musk bought Twitter, installed himself as the CEO for a minute, and then eventually, after a flurry of activity, appointed Linda Yacarina as the CEO.

Now,

everyone kind of assumed that he was calling the shots at X, even though she was the CEO.

But like, you unload some of the responsibilities onto the CEO who like runs the thing day to day, and then you're like the visionary kibbetzer.

And like, you know, I wrote this week, Tesla already has that model where Elon Musk's titles at Tesla, embarrassingly, are technically techno-king and CEO.

He's the techno-king.

Didn't realize that.

Oh, yeah.

This happened a while ago.

It happened in like 2021, and he was named the techno-king, and the CFI was named the Master of Coin.

Now it's coming back to me.

I know.

Everyone blocks it out because it's really embarrassing.

But it's still, you know, you still look at the filings.

It says techno-king.

Wow.

And so you could split those roles.

He was once the chairman of the board as well as the CEO, as many powerful CEOs are, and then he had to stop being the chairman of the board because he got in trouble with the SEC.

But he's now the techno king and CEO.

So you can split those roles too and leave him as the techno king, make someone else the CEO.

And I think in that split, the CEO runs the car company, and the techno-king is the guy who's like, we're going to build humanoid robots.

We're doing the AI stuff.

Doing the AI stuff.

Yeah.

Another suggestion that I've seen in terms of how, you know, the structure could work at Tesla, I forget who exactly suggested this, but someone from the cell side suggested that maybe he could become chairman again and just be chairman.

Yeah, but like in the traditional division of public company responsibilities, the chairman who is in charge of the board that has a fiduciary responsibility and oversees management is not quite what he wants.

And the CEO who runs the company as a full-time job is not quite what he wants.

I think Techno King is a good description of what he wants to be, which is he wants to have absolute power, be like focused on tech stuff, and not have the sort of full-time day-to-day responsibilities of either a CEO or a chairman.

That's true.

I will say it kind of reminds me of MicroStrategy to an extent, because Michael Saylor founded MicroStrategy.

He was the CEO for a long, long time.

He stepped down from being CEO, and now I believe he's just chairman.

That's that's a common thing, but I do think that

MicroStrategy and Tesla are sort of at opposite ends of like business complexity.

Like

is

in the business of buying Bitcoin and putting them in a pot.

But hear me out.

They actually have thousands of employees because that's not all they do.

I understand.

It's somewhat similar in that, okay, Tesla is a car company that also has this like AI stuff happening with it.

MicroStrategy is nominally a software company.

Couldn't tell you more than that.

But then they have this whole other thing on top of it, which is just buying Bitcoin and Bitcoin.

I think that MicroStrategy is known for the thing on top of it, whereas Tesla is still still known for primarily being a car company.

Yeah, see, that's where I'm not sure.

Like, I think that a lot of people would say that the thing that Tesla does day to day is a car company.

It makes cars and sells cars, but the thing that it is known for is being Elon Musk's company, and particularly the thing that drives its stock market valuation is not the current cash flows from cars, but the future projections of we're going to build humanoid robots and be the world's leading robotics and AI company and be like pioneers in self-driving cars and like all this stuff that Elon Musk promises.

And like the journal story about the board looking elsewhere also

mentions some texts that Musk sent to someone close to him saying that he no longer wanted to be CEO of Tesla, but he was worried that no one could replace him atop the company and sell the vision that Tesla isn't just an automaker, but the future of robotics and automation as well.

I think that's right, right?

Like if you've got like a car person in to run it as a car company, it's much harder to sell that vision.

The problem is not just that Elon Musk is a good salesman for that vision.

And if you put someone else in charge, you wouldn't have that good salesmanship.

There's also the problem that like Elon Musk does a lot of stuff.

And if someone else is running Tesla, then when he wakes up in the morning and has an idea for robotics stuff, he is more likely to do it somewhere else, right?

He owns like six companies.

He can always start more companies.

If he wants to do the future of robotics somewhere else, he kind of just can.

Leaving him as the CEO of Tesla ties him a little bit more closely to Tesla and makes him more likely to do futuristic stuff within Tesla as opposed to at SpaceX with a boring company or in a new company.

Or XAI.

Or XAI.

And if there were just like a coup, if the board was like, we're sick of you, you're fired, we're getting a new CEO,

that would be really bad for Tesla.

You know, he has like a million things that he's doing.

He'd do all of them elsewhere.

He's sort of threatened to do if he didn't get paid enough from Tesla.

Like one aspect of this is like, you know, we've talked a lot about Delaware courts clawing back as compensation, which is still kind of being litigated.

And, you know, he sort of said, you know, if I had that extra $50 billion of Tesla stock, I'd be more motivated to do stuff within Tesla.

But if he gets fired, less motivated.

You coined a phrase for this.

What was it?

Was it like the Elon attention auctions?

Yeah, right.

Like, if you are an investor or a director at one of Elon's companies, the more of his attention you get, the more valuable the company is, right?

And like you see that, particularly with Tesla now, where they get less of his attention and the stock goes down a lot.

And like partly because they want more of his attention and partly because when he directs his attention elsewhere, it's like bad for PR.

But

how do you get that attention?

The normal way is to give him stuff, like a big pay package,

but some amount of threatening is also a possibility.

I don't know that it's threatening exactly, but

you had to, as a board, have some amount of independence and maturity where you can say to the CEO, hey, it would be nice if you showed up to work.

Yeah.

Maybe swipe your badge now and then.

For enterprise organizations, managing all your food needs is a tall order.

But with EasyCater, you get a single workplace food vendor with the tools and resources to make it easy, giving teams across your organization an easy way to order from a huge variety of restaurants, all on one platform.

All while consolidating your corporate food spend so you can control costs, streamline billing and payment, and simplify reporting.

EasyCater, your business tool for food.

To learn more, visit easycater.com/slash podcast.

Hiscock Small Business Insurance knows there is no business like your business.

Across America, over 600,000 small businesses, from accountants and architects to photographers and yoga instructors, look to Hiscox Insurance for protection.

Find flexible coverage that adapts to the needs of your small business with a fast, easy, online quote at Hiscox.com.

That's HISCOX.com.

There's no business like small business.

Hiscox Small Business Insurance.

These days, AI can help you write emails, summarize long meetings, and even create presentations that impress your most demanding customer.

But how about industrial AI that uses data and simulation to boost productivity on the shop floor?

AI tools that help you understand machine language.

AI that helps you grow your business.

With Siemens Accelerator, you can use AI services, software, and consulting from a single trusted digital business platform.

Plus, you can find the right AI partner without having to search through hundreds of providers.

That's AI for Real from the global market leader in industrial AI.

Siemens Accelerator.

Learn more at Siemens.us/slash accelerator.

Shall we talk about some debt?

Yeah, let's talk about XIII.

The X debt.

X AI.

Finally sold.

Yeah,

like a lot of people, probably including me, in like 2023, were like, this is like one of the worst leveraged buyouts ever.

In like early 2023, you look at this and you're like, okay, like Elon Musk overpaid for a company.

Twitter was not a traditional leveraged buyout company.

It didn't have great cash flow.

It wasn't like a, you know, money spinner.

It was the, you know,

social media company that didn't make a lot of money.

And so Elon Musk decided to buy it and they leveraged buyout and he got $13 billion worth of the debt, which is a lot of debt for Twitter.

And then after he agreed to buy it, everyone agreed, including him, that he was overpaying for it.

And he tried to get out of it by saying Twitter was a big fraud.

And by the time the deal closed, it looked like a very unpleasant deal to finance.

And the banks that financed that couldn't sell or didn't sell the debt, which presumably because there's not much market for it.

And I don't think they ever marked it down formally, but like the equity investors marked down their equity a lot.

And there were, you know, news stories saying that like the banks were getting offers at like 50 cents on the dollar.

So it looks like they'd lost billions of dollars underwriting the Twitter deal.

And three years later.

two years later, they've sold all the debt at like, you know, a round bar.

The most recent seller was like 98 cents on the dollar.

They got paid big interest payments over that time period because there was expensive debt.

So they've made an accounting profit on the deal, made an economic profit on the deal.

And

they also cozied up with Elon Musk and now probably get financing work for XAI, which is a giant company.

I love it because if you just held onto this debt and kind of ignored it for three years, you made out fine.

But it came with a lot of emotional turmoil.

It's something I think about a lot, right?

Like,

you know, the pitch for private markets is you don't have so much emotional turmoil, right?

And the individuals who like underwrote the X debt, they did a great decision for their banks.

They made a lot of money, but some of them got fired in the interim because it looked like a terrible decision.

And the journal story about selling the last slug of the ex-debt

says, the legacy of the hung debt might have longer-term implications.

X and other hung loans prompted pay cuts and an exodus of bankers.

They also forced some banks to pull back on lending, which gave room for competitors and the booming private credit space to muscle in.

So it's like, did Elon Musk invent private credit?

Not really, but like

perhaps he did.

Will the story of private credit be like, yeah, and then Elon Musk hung a debt deal.

And so everyone had to, you know, all the banks had to stop lending.

And so private credit got to get into the game.

Because it's true, like, there was a big uptick in private credit because banks did pull back because there's a string of hung loans.

Yeah.

And this was the big one.

I had kind of traced a lot of the boom that we saw in private credit to the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank, but maybe the whole time it was just ex-debt, you know?

In the LBO space, like the banks that did LBO lending, you have like a small balance sheet for LBO lending, and you have to turn it over a lot by selling all your loans.

And if you stick $13 billion of loans on your LBO balance sheet, you can't do any more loans.

And so, you know, you have to let private credit do it.

Yeah.

So you wrote that perhaps Elon Musk created private credit and perhaps he did.

But when I read that, my initial thought was to think about the psyche, you know, what we're talking about, the private markets, investing in private markets.

It's supposed to take out the emotional turmoil.

Because I was thinking about the past month in the equity markets and the SP 500 in April actually amazingly was only down about seven, eight tenths of a percent, which is nothing.

That's like the smallest move on a monthly basis that we've seen in a long time.

But that came with so much hand-wringing.

It came with so much volatility that you could watch second to second that you asked someone how they felt at the end of April, they would probably say that was crazy.

But that mentality of, you know, if you just close your eyes for three years, you made out great on this ex debt.

You didn't have to think about it.

But obviously, it wasn't actually private credit.

So those banks probably thought about it a lot.

One selling point of private assets is that they have lower volatility.

And if you think about that for a second, it can't really be true.

But what is true is that you don't mark them to market as frequently.

And so you can't know how volatile they are on like a sort of like theoretical value basis.

And so it is true that because you don't mark them to market as frequently, you don't have to be as emotionally upset about them.

And so friend of the pod, Cliff Aslis, has written about this, that like there is an actual value from having private assets.

Because if you are, if you're a human who might be prone to panic and sell when things are low, or if you're like an institutional allocator who has like some rule where if you have a big drawdown, you have to sell or something like that.

Some of the institutional structures of investing can like replicate irrational panic.

A reader emailed me about this,

to the extent that the public markets are dominated by multi-strategy hedge funds whose one of their salient features is that if you have a 10% drawdown, you're fired.

That like creates potential bad incentives where you have months like this where you have a 5% drawdown every other day, but nothing happens, right?

Like you could have like selling at the worst times because you are exposed to volatility that you can see.

Whereas if you own assets that you can't see the volatility of, you can just be like, ah, that's great.

And if like the volatility is mostly, you know, washed out, then that works out better for you in the long long run.

I wonder how you quantify human emotion, though.

Intuitively, one way you quantify it is that you think, well, in the long run, private assets and public assets should have the same returns,

arguably.

And if

90% of the volatility in public markets washes out, then that was all emotional volatility rather than real volatility.

That's true.

That's probably not quite right, but yeah, this is the first cut.

You could design a factor around that and then somehow launch an ETF.

Let's see.

There's also a Bloomberg report that XAI is in talks to raise $20 billion of equity, which would be like the second biggest startup fundraise ever.

Second only to OpenAI.

Yeah.

And one of the uses of proceeds might be to pay down the debt.

It's a little unclear how much money Twitter is making.

I mean, X, like the X portion of XAI, the social media company.

But it's not like a great business still.

And AI AI businesses are still like pretty speculative, hugely capital intensive businesses.

So you don't really want to spend a billion dollars a year on debt service if you're a company like that.

And so it looks like they can get rid of the debt by raising $20 billion of equity.

Not only did this debt all get sold, but also it might get like paid back at bar early.

And

I think that like the message is that it's fairly expensive to raise debt for a social media company and like incredibly cheap to raise equity for a AI company, right?

Like you can raise billions of dollars of equity at $100 billion valuations if you're a cool AI company.

And so they're correcting the capital structure.

For enterprise organizations, managing all your food needs is a tall order.

But with EasyCater, you get a single workplace food vendor with the tools and resources to make it easy, giving teams across your organization an easy way to order from a huge variety of restaurants, all on one platform, all while consolidating your corporate food spend so you can control costs, streamline billing and payment, and simplify reporting.

EasyCater, your business tool for food.

To learn more, visit easycater.com slash podcast.

Hiscock Small Business Insurance knows there is no business like your business.

Across America, over 600,000 small businesses, from accountants and architects to photographers and yoga instructors, look to Hiscox Insurance for protection.

Find flexible coverage that adapts to the needs of your small business with a fast, easy online quote at Hiscox.com.

That's HISCOX.com.

There's no business like small business.

Hiscox Small Business Insurance.

These days, AI can help you write emails, summarize long meetings, and even create presentations that impress your most demanding customer.

But how about industrial AI that uses data and simulation to boost productivity on the shop floor?

AI tools that help you understand machine language.

AI that helps you grow your business.

With Siemens Accelerator, you can use AI services, software, and consulting from a single trusted digital business platform.

Plus, you can find the right AI partner without having to search through hundreds of providers.

That's AI for Real from the global market leader in industrial AI.

Siemens Accelerator.

Learn more at Siemens.us/slash accelerator.

Speaking of the appeal of private markets.

Go on.

Capital Group and KKR.

Well, everyone.

I mean, right.

So there's a story this week about Capital Group and KKR teaming up to launch mixed public-private debt funds, which is like

a fund.

It's like 60% public bonds and loans and 40% direct lending and other private credit stuff.

So it's a public-private credit fund.

And, you know, capital is a big mutual fund manager that I believe sells through financial advisors.

And so like, you know, if you have a financial advisor, they might be like, oh, you should put your money in this capital mutual fund.

And now the financial advisor can say, oh, you should put your money in this capital slash KKR public-private fund.

And

yeah, that's like the wave of the near future, I think.

Bloomberg reported yesterday that State Street and Carlisle are in similar talks.

Which is interesting.

Because State Street, you know, has this partnership with Apollo as well.

Yeah, but like the private managers are kind of, they're providing paper.

And then like these big asset managers are like, yeah, we'll sell lots of that paper.

I think.

I agree that it's a little weird because there are like partnerships rather than like pure like issuers.

But yeah, Capital and KKR, State Street and

everybody.

That's just this week.

You also had Blackstone, Vanguard, and Wellington team up in some JV to launch these sort of products.

And the other thing that there is is Morgan Stanley this week and Goldman a couple of weeks ago launched private wealth thingies where it's like their

own alts businesses, their own private credit businesses or private equity businesses.

I'm going to sell some paper to like their, not like pure retail, but like their high net worth retail-ish private wealth clients.

And so there's a lot of emphasis everywhere everywhere in private credit and private equity managers to sell to individuals, right?

Because like historically, this has been a business where they raise money from institutional allocators and now they're like

so big that they need to tap trillions of dollars of individual wealth.

And so there's just a lot of talk about like putting private credit and private equity into 401ks and like target date funds and ETFs and retail financial advisors.

And so this is like the big push.

So when you and I were discussing what to talk about today, I called this sort of like the evergreen story because we're talking about capital group and KKR, this tie-up, but it just feels like we're going to see more of these.

And you talk about that push because they want to open up and raise trillions of dollars from retail investors.

I mean, it just seems that this is like the inevitable march forward.

We could talk about this story every single week.

I think we will.

And it's interesting, you know, you say like march forward.

Like my like cynical take on this is that people solve the problem of investing, right?

Like it's a dispariting solution, right?

But it's like you buy all the companies and like BlackRock or Vanguard will do that for you because it's a useful service for them to provide.

And they will charge you three basis points, right?

You buy all the companies and then you own the market and no one's going to beat the market for you.

And getting the market return with low fees is the right way to do it.

And like, there's lots of reasons to object to it, but that's like, it kind of is a first cut, like the solution.

And a lot of people believe that for plausible reasons.

And so like a lot of people, you know, put their money in index ETFs.

And if you are Wellington or capital and you're in the business of bong-only public equity management, you've had a good 50 or 100-year run, but like that business is really hard right now.

It's really hard to sell an actively managed mutual fund through financial advisors because people are like, yeah, just self-directed, you know, account and buy S ⁇ P 500 ETF, right?

And pay three basis points instead of several dozens.

You know, you used to pay like 2% for your mutual fund.

Like, those days are a long gone.

And so,

how do you address that?

The universal answer is private markets.

Yeah.

And, like, what does that mean?

What it means is, like, used to be like kind of medium-sized companies, youngish, medium-sized companies would go public.

And now, like, companies stay private longer and grow bigger in private markets.

And,

and, like, why is that?

Like, there are a lot of good reasons for it, right?

There's a lot of capital in private markets.

It's much less convenient.

It's much more convenient to be private than to have to deal with earnings calls and SEC report and shareholder lawsuits and all that.

All the boring stuff.

There's a lot of stuff that companies don't like about being public.

But I also do think that

if you're a big private company and you go talk to like investors or banks

and you're like, hey, should I go public?

They'll be like, no, stay private.

And like, why?

Well, this is like the financial intermediaries make so much more money in private markets than public markets.

In some ways, it feels like a step backward in progress, right?

Like in some ways, it feels like what's happening here is that public markets are so

cheap and efficient for some definition of efficient that it is kind of no fun to be an investor in the public markets.

And so, all these investment firms are like, how do we get more stuff that isn't just like ruthlessly indexed and charges three basis points?

And like, the answer is like more private stuff.

Yeah.

I'm trying to decide what is the chicken and what is the egg because like there's two things happening.

I mean, it's all self-reinforcing.

It's not like just one thing started it.

What do you call it when the snake is eating itself?

Ouroboros.

Ruboros.

Ruboros.

Ruboros.

Yeah, that sounds good.

Well, what I'm trying to say is

you have the capital groups and the Wellingtons of the world.

They want to tap into retail investors because we've solved the problem of investing.

And here's a new thing you can do.

And then here's the other force: you have all these cool, interesting companies that are small that are staying private for longer, partly because the funding is there.

You mentioned all the annoying things, but there's also like there's ways to access funding.

You don't need to go public anymore.

And I guess that's the snake.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

And also, the other thing is there is retail demand for this.

It's not just the issuers like it and the intermediaries, like the retail investors, like, yeah, I get to own cool private companies, right?

There is this perception based in fact that the highest growing companies are in the private markets.

Stripes, SpaceX.

Yeah, and then also on the credit side, because a company, what you're getting in private credit is like a certain amount of flexibility and structuring and a certain amount of certainty, and you're paying for that with higher interest rates.

And so, if you're a retail client and you're like, I can have a bond fund or I can have a private credit fund that pays an extra 150 basis points, like, why not do the private credit?

So, there's some reality to the idea that private markets have higher returns, and so you should invest in private markets.

God, I had something to say, and it just floated away.

It went private.

Yeah, I can't access it.

Did I tell you that at Disney World I saw a snake?

We haven't talked at all about your trip to Disney World.

How was it?

Oh, I remembered what I wanted to say.

Should I say it?

A mailbag question we got about adverse selection.

This was in relation to private credit ETF, but the cynical suspicion that the private manager was just going to dump all their not-so-great stuff into these retail funds.

Yeah.

There's always like some hierarchy of like, if you are a private investment manager running a bunch of different things, like you'll...

have a natural inclination to allocate the very best things to your personal account, the next best things to the accounts of the important clients who pay you the highest fees and like the worst things you know to the retail clients who pay you 80 basis points right but there are a lot of like things to counteract that tendency like regulation and like you know the conflicts committees of these firms and like you know a lot of this stuff is like sort of vertical slices of everything so it's like i wouldn't you know like you can't really have this business where like you take the best loans you put them in your private credit fund and you take the worst loans and you stuff them into the public private fund for retail and also the partnerships guard against that a little bit where like the straight streets and capitals of the world have incentives to negotiate to get the good loans rather than just the bad loans.

Yeah.

They're doing due diligence and the like.

But I don't know.

I mean if you're like a private credit manager, like your job is to like make good loans and then like you fund them with like a sort of undifferentiated pool of like the money that you get from wherever you get it from.

Cool.

So maybe we shouldn't worry.

It's not highest on my list of worries.

Are we going to like talk about an SEC enforcement action against someone who like you know adversely selected their retail fund?

Maybe one day.

Six to twelve months, perhaps.

We're not going to talk about it.

Not in six to twelve months.

Three and a half years.

Three and a half years, you know, when we're on episode whatever.

Yeah, we're sorry.

We're not here to talk.

Sorry.

And that was the Money Stuff Podcast.

I'm Matt Levine.

And I'm Katie Greyfeld.

You can find my work by subscribing to the Money Stuff newsletter on Bloomberg.com.

And you can find me on Bloomberg TV every day on Open Interest between 9 to 11 a.m.

Eastern.

We'd love to hear from you.

You can send an email to moneypod at bloomberg.net.

Ask us a question and we might answer it on air.

You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening right now and leave us a review.

It helps more people find the show.

The Money Stuff Podcast is produced by Anna Mazarakis and Moses Andam.

Our theme music was composed by Blake Maples.

Brendan Francis Newham is our executive producer.

And Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts.

Special thanks this week to Dash Bennett.

Thanks for listening to the Money Stuff Podcast.

We'll be back next week with more stuff.

Every business has an ambition.

PayPal Open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide.

And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo, Pay Later, and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up.

When it's time to get growing, there's one platform for all business: PayPal Open.

Grow today at PayPalOpen.com.

Loan subject to approval in available locations.

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.

Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month is back.

So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal.

So there goes my big idea for the commercial.

Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch.

Up front payment of $45 for a three-month plan equivalent to $15 per month required.

New customer offer for first three months only.

Speed slow after 35 gigabytes if network's busy.

Taxes and fees extra.

See mintmobile.com.

Life's messy.

We're talking spills, stains, pets, and kids.

But with Anibay, you never have to stress about messes again.

At washablesofas.com, discover Anibay Sofas, the only fully machine-washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699.

Made with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind.

Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers, allowing you to refresh your style anytime.

Need flexibility?

Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly.

Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes.

Plus, they're earth-friendly and built to last.

That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch.

Upgrade your space today.

Visit washable sofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life.

That's washable sofas.com.

Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.