What Happens When You Trade Your Home for a Debt-Free Start?

Today's episode is sponsored by Quince.

You know that moment when summer winds down and your closet suddenly feels like a mashup of beach leftovers and wishful thinking?

Yep.

That's when you realize it's time for a reset, minus the luxury price tag.

Enter Quince.

What I love about Quince is the huge variety of products that they offer.

I picked up their organic Turkish waffle robe and now I'm living my white lotus fantasy every time I step out of the shower.

And Elizabeth, you know that I'm in the middle of planning my honeymoon to Japan, so I I also got their Napa leather RFID passport holder and luggage tag set.

So now I'm ready to travel in style.

Sounds very stylish to me, Sean, and you're going to have to send me pics of all of the items.

Oh, you know it.

So I personally have been lounging on their cotton velvet pillow covers.

When I saw that they were 100% cotton velvet and they were machine washable, I was sold.

I also got the pillows in my favorite color, which is yellow or marigold technically.

And I just love how soft the pillow covers are and it seems to be great quality for the price.

That's because Quince works directly with top artisans and skiffs the middleman markup.

Plus, they only partner with factories using safe, ethical practices, and premium fabric, so you can feel good about what you're wearing and where it came from.

I use this stuff, and you should too.

Elevate your fall wardrobe and home essentials with Quince.

Go to quince.com/slash smartmoney for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

That's q-u-i-n-ce-e.com/slash/smartmoney to get free shipping and 365-day returns.

Quince.com slash smartmoney.

This episode is brought to you by Life Lock.

Between two-factor authentication, strong passwords, and a VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected.

But many other places also have it, and they might not be as careful.

That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats.

If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back.

Save up to 40% your first year.

Visit lifelock.com slash podcast for 40% off.

Terms apply.

It's almost time to go back to school, at least for the kids of America.

Do you know where your pencil cases and lunch boxes are?

Do you need new ones?

If so, we've got some advice for how to navigate the school supply resupply budget.

Welcome to NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast, where you send us your money questions and we answer them with the help of our genius nerds.

I'm Sean Files.

And I'm Elizabeth Aiola.

Later this episode, we'll answer a listener's question about whether they should sell a house in order to pay off a large amount of debt.

But first up, our weekly money news roundup where we break down the latest in the world of finance to help you be smarter with your money.

Our news colleague Ana Hilhoski is back with some numbers on back-to-school spending, something that I'm very glad that I don't have to budget for.

And Ana, this is not a small expense, is it?

No, it is not.

And Nervol conducts an annual survey about those costs.

And this year's report found that more than half of parents of children K through 12 or college say the back-to-school season is financially stressful for their family.

So to dig into some of the reasons why, we've asked Erin Elisa, a senior dad writer here at Nerdvault, to talk with us today.

Erin, welcome back to Smart Money.

Thanks for having me.

So the report found that parents are expected to spend over $700 per household this year.

How does that compare to previous years and what's driving that number?

So it's about $200 more than last year, which is significant.

Yeah.

And it seems like tariff-related price increases or at least the assumption of tariff-related price increases may be driving this higher estimate.

So people are trying to get ahead of tariffs, I assume?

So this survey was fielded back in May and tariffs have been kind of will they, won't they since then.

But I think that the estimates are a bit higher just because people have been expecting them.

Actually, 39% of back-to-school shoppers say they'll buy different brands due to those price increases, and 35% say they'll shop with different retailers.

Others say they'll buy fewer clothing items or supplies, and 22% say they'll contribute less to their child's school or classroom this year.

That's pretty interesting because a lot of the anticipated related effects from tariffs haven't really settled in yet, but people are thinking that way and they're hoping against hope, I guess.

So the report found that 13% say that they'll likely go into debt for school supplies, while 46% say they would go into debt to pay for back-to-school items that would help their child fit in at school.

Seems like there are social pressure elements at play here.

That doesn't seem like anything new, but is it consistent with previous years?

Yep, that's pretty consistent.

And I totally understand.

I'm a parent myself.

I get that parents want to give their kids the very best.

I do think it's worth interrogating what that means, though, thinking about short-term purchases like back to school or long-term financial stability.

Is there anything that you remember about purchases that you wanted to fit in when you were in school?

And did your parents hold?

As a child of the 90s, Lisa Frank folders were always

on the shopping list.

But my parents, we didn't have a lot of extra money, but they did prioritize new back-to-school supplies and clothing every single year.

In fact, one year my mom didn't have the money to afford it and she side hustled.

She bartended for like a month and a half

in order to buy me those new back-to-school clothes.

It's not something I prioritize as a parent, but I do have really good memories about that.

Yeah, I definitely remember Lisa Frank as being something that was also a 90s child.

That Lisa Frank was something that was just a little too trendy and a little bit more expensive than like the regular folders.

And same with the trendy book covers.

My parents are like, yeah, you're going to use brown paper bags, but you can cover them with stickers.

Yeah.

Those Lisa Frank folders, though, those were investments.

They're on eBay for like hundreds of dollars now.

It's crazy.

Those original ones.

Yeah, yeah.

If only, if only.

I do remember getting like the cool lunchbox, though.

So there, there were some things that were prioritized.

And how do you feel about being a parent?

You know, is there anything that you do now?

I have two kids, but only one is school-aged.

My daughter is going into first grade.

So I actually purchased two items for her for back to school shopping.

We got her a Pokemon backpack because she wanted it and a pair of sneakers because she needed them.

Other than that, I am not buying other school supplies, and I'm not going back to school shopping for new clothes.

Now, something to keep in mind with this is this is because I have the child that I have.

If I had a child who I think would feel so much more confident walking into school with a new outfit, then maybe that would be something that's important to me.

But, like, keeping my own financial priorities in mind and knowing my child and what's important to her, those are the decisions we've made.

Right.

You always have to make choices there.

And what methods are most people using to make those back-to-school purchases?

Are there any differences that are standing out from prior years?

So, credit cards have officially edged out debit cards as the top payment method.

But also, buy now, pay later is definitely growing in popularity.

23%

of back-to-school shoppers plan to use those buy now pay later services to pay for at least some of the supplies.

And how are people saving money this season?

Are they cutting back or making trade-offs in their purchases?

And what tends to get cut first?

Is it clothes?

Is it tech?

Supplies?

So pretty consistently year over year, we see a lot of the same savings actions.

So many back-to-school shoppers shop sales, they use coupons, they limit purchases to those that are required or requested by their school.

For trade-offs, 27% of back-to-school shoppers this year say they'll purchase fewer back-to-school clothing items, and 25% say the same about supplies due to those tariff-related price increases.

So not much of a difference in categories, but some parents were really eager to get ahead of the tariff.

So like I said, the survey was fielded in May and 26% of back-to-school shoppers say they had already purchased new tech items for the upcoming school year to avoid those price hikes.

Oh, wow.

I mean, we did see a huge hike in consumer purchases in general in the spring.

So I imagine back to school is part of that.

How can parents set expectations about what they will and won't purchase this year?

I think it's really important to have these age-appropriate money conversations with your kids.

I think as parents, a lot of times we want to shelter our children from these difficult conversations, but I think we can do it in a respectful and age-appropriate way that isn't scary.

Like, if you have a strict budget, communicate that.

Or if you can't purchase something that's a want, but not a need, you know, just explain this isn't in the budget or it's not a priority right now.

I use that a lot with my kids.

Like, this is not a priority, or different families have different priorities, that kind of stuff when we're talking about spending.

They might be upset.

Full disclosure, they might be upset.

It's hard to hear no.

I think as grownups, it's kind of hard to hear no a lot of times.

But yeah, but it's a good lesson for the future.

They don't get everything they want now.

They won't get everything they want later.

We have to make trade-offs.

Right.

And being transparent about that in so much as a kid can understand that makes a lot of sense.

Any other tips for saving money this back to school shopping season?

So I'm more of a minimizer than a deal finder.

That's my particular favorite way to save money is buying less.

So I would say go through last year's school supplies and see what you can salvage for this year.

Hosting a supply swap with neighbors or religious community or school community at large could be great.

And if your child hasn't outgrown last year's school clothes and they're like my child and they don't really care about having new clothes, just use last year's school clothes.

It's fine.

If they still fit, they're good.

There's always thrifting too.

Yeah.

All right.

Erin, thank you so much for your time.

Thank you.

And thank you, Ana.

Elizabeth, do any of those back-to-school shopping tips resonate with you?

I know you're probably in the midst of this right now with your son.

Well, actually, I finally have done my back to school shopping.

And guess how much I spent, Sean, on supplies?

$0?

20 bucks.

$20.

Yes.

That's amazing.

Cheapest

I've ever had.

Crayons, color pencils, notebooks, folders, everything on the supply list I got for 20 bucks.

So there were some really, really good sales.

I got like a Crayola color pencils for like 50 cents.

I couldn't believe it.

Good job.

And were you able to avoid any arguments about your son wanting things that you didn't want to pay for?

I wasn't.

I wasn't.

I wasn't.

But of course I won the battle because I'm mom.

But I loved Aaron's tip about not necessarily overbuying clothes because my son's the kind of kid who's like, why do I need to look good when I leave in the morning?

Why do I need to brush my hair?

I don't have to look nice every day.

So he does not care.

Yeah, that's not his priority.

So why spend money there?

Exactly.

So I I bought him 10 t-shirts and we're good to go.

Love to hear that.

All right.

Well, up next, we're going to answer a listener's question about whether they should sell their house to pay off a large amount of debt.

But before we get into that, a reminder, listener, to send us your money questions.

Maybe you're wondering if you need to get new life insurance, but aren't sure whether term or whole is right for you.

Or you're getting married later this year and are wondering if the benefits of a prenuptial agreement outweigh any awkwardness around the topic.

Leave us a voicemail or text us on the nerd hotline at 901-730-6373.

That's 901-730-NERD or email us at podcast at nerdwallet.com.

And a heads up, we're running our annual listener survey.

And yes, there are prizes.

We're giving away the first ever Smart Money branded merch, and it's super exclusive.

Only seven people are going to get it.

One winner gets a pair of Sony ULT wireless noise-canceling headphones.

And six others get the Bagu Cloud carry-on bag, which is honestly really nice.

The survey takes a few minutes and we read every single response.

So this is your chance to help shape what smart money covers, how we cover it, and how the show evolves over time.

I want you to head over to nerdwallet.com slash pod survey and fill it out by September 15th to be entered for a chance to win.

In a moment, this episode's Money Question.

Stay with us.

Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative?

I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best-selling author of The Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast.

My co-host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Kraft.

That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood.

Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.

We're back and answering your money questions to help you make smarter financial decisions.

This episode, we're talking with a listener, Delius, who has some questions about whether they should sell their house to resolve their credit card debt.

Delius, welcome to Smart Money.

Hi, I'm so happy to be here.

We're excited to speak with you, Delius, but it's only right that we start the conversation with an icebreaker.

And when you reached out to us, we learned that you are an actor and you were on Broadway for many years, which I find very intriguing.

So I've tailored the icebreaker to that.

And my question for you is, I want you to describe your year so far with a Broadway play.

Ooh.

Okay.

Okay.

I'm not going to think too hard about this.

I'm going to say Gypsy.

There's a new production going on with Audrey McDonald.

All black cast.

It's amazing about a

ex-show girl that has turned into a show mom.

She's now a show woman.

And I feel like that's how my year has been.

It's like I'm fighting tooth and nails, you know,

but everything is coming up roses.

Yeah, because it's getting better.

It's getting better.

Good.

Yeah, you're setting out your new life and on your way to be a show mom.

Yeah, totally.

Absolutely.

I love that.

So tell us what aspects of that reflect your finances.

I have been a performer ever since I graduated undergraduate, and I didn't get a lot of financial literacy.

And so

I just didn't know.

I made a lot of mistakes.

And now I feel like I am actually taking the time to seek this information out and get better, to make my finances better.

I think I didn't even know where to begin to make financial changes to my life.

But now I feel like, okay, I at least I'm starting to form some kind of plan.

Yeah.

And that's why we're here today.

So you reached out to us with quite the financial story.

Can Can you talk with us about what you've done with your finances, how you got to where you are, all of that?

So I joined the Book of Mormon on Broadway when I was 22.

So really, really exciting because I was making six figures right out of college as an artist, which was awesome.

And I was really financially responsible.

Like I still had roommates during my time in New York and while I was on Broadway.

I didn't know all of the emergency savings, but I was putting money to my 401k.

I had a lot of money in savings that I ended up when I left the show.

I bought a house because I was left the show to go to grad school.

And I was trying to close on my house before I left Mormon because it looked like I was in a higher financial bracket than when I was going to school.

But they were like, okay, we'll give you this mortgage, but you're not going to be making as much money as when you were on Broadway.

So we need you to put like 50% down.

So I took most of my savings, put down on my home in Vegas.

And then it made my mortgage really, really affordable.

Like my mortgage now is at 2.69.

Nice.

Got that pandemic era interest rate.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Like pre-pandemic.

It was like 2016.

So then grad school happened, and I wasn't making a lot of of money, but Vegas wasn't as expensive as New York.

So I was like, okay, well, I'm not really saving any money now, but it's fine.

I'm getting a master's.

I didn't have a problem with getting work before.

I won't have a problem with getting work afterwards.

There's a short term time where you weren't going to be able to save.

Yeah.

So I was like, oh, this is this is fine.

I got a lot of the travel credit cards at the time.

And I would always, because I love, that was my one vice was I was like, you know, I'm working hard during the show, but we get like a week off every six, six months.

So I was like, okay, I'm going to go on a trip.

So I got these high credit limits.

Was it a vice because you weren't paying off the credit cards or a vice just in the sense that you were traveling?

Yeah, just because I was traveling at this point.

Okay.

I did know that it would affect the credit if I didn't pay it off.

So I paid it off immediately and they would, they kept extending the credit, extending the credit, extending the credit to the point that I had like

three credit cards, each with $25,000 credit limits.

I gotten a little bit of debt during school, but I'm like, like, it's fine.

You know, I'll pay these things off after grad school.

Then grad school ended.

That was 2019.

I did a couple original shows.

In my mind, I was still on Broadway.

So I'm like, oh, this, I'm going to travel.

I'm going to buy nice things, you know.

But I didn't have the Broadway salary.

So I'm still, the credit is slowly starting to increase, but I'm like, oh, it's going to be fine.

Like, I will eventually get back to Broadway or something better.

Now I have a grad degree.

And then the pandemic happened.

But I'm like, okay,

this pandemic is only going to last a couple of months.

It's fine.

And we all remember how that went.

Right.

We all remember how that went.

And so I continue to charge things on credit.

The pandemic is when the snowball started to happen.

Because you didn't have money coming in.

So you were just charging everyday expenses on your show.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was charging rent.

I was charging everyday expenses, groceries.

Did the show.

I moved back to Los Angeles and

I

am in hopes of now, like, okay, well, let's, I need, now I need like television money because I need a large lump sum to help me wipe this debt away.

And then we had the big writer strike in LA.

So it was like this.

One thing after another.

One after another.

These are New York and LA are like two of the most expensive places.

And I just am not bringing in the type of money that I thought I would have been for the entertainment industry.

So it seems like you had a number of years of accumulating this debt.

How much did you rack up in total and where are you now with it?

Total about $75,000.

This year, I have started a debt consolidation plan.

I also took money for my 401k.

So now I'm at about 55.

Good progress.

So you have credit card debt, you have student loans, is that it?

Or do you have any other technology?

I have credit card debt.

I have my mortgage.

I have a car loan.

Just owe my mom some money because she helped me out.

Thanks, mom.

I know.

I'm hoping that that's the lowest interest debt you have.

Yeah, totally, totally, totally.

Like, yeah.

Okay.

So, when you reached out to us, you mentioned that you had this debt and you're hoping to maybe make some changes to resolve it so you can move forward in your life.

You said that you're about to move in with a partner.

So, you're at this point going back to the play that you mentioned earlier where you're re-establishing this new phase of your life.

So, what changes might you want to make and what are you hoping to do with this debt?

Right now I am I am currently a, I got an awesome job in Burbank, California.

Congratulations.

It's a performing arts.

I direct and I choreograph and I teach.

So it's awesome because it's salary and I could potentially have this job for as long as I want this job, which is, I feel really, really happy and proud of myself for that.

I loved being a homeowner.

I think it was one of the best decisions I've made in my life.

So I would love to

be able to buy a house in California.

I would love to pay off all my debt, pay off my car note.

I would love to

have an emergency savings.

I would love to,

yeah, have money to put aside to travel more.

I just want to feel free again.

Of course.

And it's hard to feel free when you have this debt hanging over your head.

So I have a few thoughts about your situation.

And before I get into all of them, a quick reminder that I'm not your financial or tax advisor.

That's a quick courtesy of NerdWallet's legal team.

But you said that you were on a debt consolidation program.

And that's through a non-profit credit counseling agency, right?

Correct.

And so you are paying off $70,000 or $50 some thousand dollars of debt.

Yeah.

Do you know how long it might take you to pay off this debt if you stick with the current plan?

I started in January.

The year is five years.

So now four years and six months.

And the thought is you could sell your house and you have this lump sum of money.

You could wipe out your debt, your credit card debt, your car loan, and then still have some hopefully left over to be able to put toward that emergency fund and maybe even a down payment on a house.

Correct.

What I'm wondering about too is you're getting rental income from this property.

Do you know what your finances might look like if you no longer have that money coming in?

Have you mapped that out?

And also, how much are you getting monthly from this rental?

How much are you netting from it?

Yeah, I net after I pay my mortgage and everything and the HOA, I net seven, about $7.50,000.

Okay.

That's not nothing.

And how much are you bringing in each month with your new gig?

My salary is $90,000.

We get paid bi-weekly and I walk away with about $2,800.

So what I would encourage you to do is do almost a before and after with your finances and see here's where my money is going going now with my current income.

Again, we're really big into the 50, 30, 20 budget format because it is a nice template for you to see how much is going towards needs, wants, and debt payments and savings.

And the goal of this format is to have balanced finances.

So if you are, you know, maybe towards 60 or 65%, maybe even 70% for your needs, that's not uncommon in California, but that means you'll have to kind of cut back elsewhere.

So take a snapshot of where your money is going with your current income, given this rental property.

See what it might look like without that in the picture.

Just so you understand, given that you have had so many changes in your financial life over the past few months, just what it might look like for you and whether you'd be able to afford all of your expenses if you didn't have this income.

But I guess that also leads me to the question of how much are you paying toward your credit card debt each month with this DMP?

$1,482 a month.

So,

you know, maybe double what you're getting from your rental property.

So your situation is really interesting and complicated and shows how the real world isn't always as clear-cut as the ideal of what people should do with their money.

A lot of times when we talk about debt management plans, we encourage people to speak with bankruptcy attorneys before they sign on to one because bankruptcy is often faster and cheaper than a debt management plan, especially if you're going the chapter seven route.

Now, because you have this asset, this house that you were already maybe thinking of selling, that really changes the calculus a bit.

So you could potentially wipe out your debt with this money from your house and then have kind of that clean slate going back to that play that we were talking about earlier.

It's like all these new changes, but that's not going to be maybe as easy as it might seem either because selling a house isn't simple.

You have people living there right now.

I do.

And when is their lease up?

August.

Okay.

Oh, wow.

And we're speaking at the very end of July right now.

So

what kind of notice do you have to give them?

Are you familiar with the process of trying to sell the place?

At the end of this lease, we've decided to go in a month to month.

And then within the month, the month, I can give them a 30-day notice.

My

thought was because, and I started the process of sending all this information to my CPA.

I took money out of my 401k this year also.

So I'm like, if I happen, let's say we put the house on the market and it does sell this year, also, it's going to look like, you know, I'm really, really

income won't be higher.

Yeah.

And you pay more in taxes.

Yeah.

So I, my thought was that if I

got all did all the research

now

about the tax breaks and then maybe sell the house next, like at the beginning of January or February, so that it's at least in a different tax year, that'd be smarter.

So, but the plan is to put them on a month-to-month so that I can have 30, a February notice to give them.

Okay.

Well, I'm glad you have a CPA because this stuff gets super complicated, especially when you're selling a property in one state, you live in another.

You'll want a CPA to model this out for you for how it might look.

And do you have a general idea of how much you might get at this point?

Yeah,

you know, from Redfin Zillow, it's looking like the comps in the area

and the other townhomes in the community are going for about $315,000.

Yeah, and I have about $50,000 left on my mortgage.

So I could net quite a bit, you know, if it goes in my favor.

Yeah.

There's part part of me that if I were you, I would really want to hold on to that house because your credit card debt, while it can feel really overwhelming and it's a lot to be paying each month for it, in 15 years, you could still have this rental property income and you'll be out of debt.

So in some ways, it's a long-term solution, selling this house to what's a relatively short-term problem, having this mound of credit card debt.

And it's a non-insignificant amount, but that's a tough thing to consider as well.

Have you thought about that?

I have.

I said that I would only sell it when I was ready to put a down payment into something else.

So I think in my mind, I thought like, okay,

yes, this is a

great rental property and rental income, but essentially I'm just kind of like moving that bank into like another bank, like a rollover in my head.

What do you think that selling the house versus not selling it will give you?

Based on all the things we've discussed, what are you leaning towards and why well the average price of a pretty standard you know two bedroom two bath in los angeles is about eight hundred thousand to a million dollars i feel like to get that down payment to get eighty thousand dollars along with all my emergency savings stuff that's also probably going to take about 10 to 15 years so if it feels like i can kind of expedite that process if i sell my house i would love if i didn't have to sell it.

Like, I would love if I had $80,000 in the bank to be able to pay for a home in Los Angeles along with that, but I don't right now.

And selling the house would give you a fresh start in many ways.

It would allow you to put more toward retirement.

You pulled out money from your 401k.

Was that your balance?

No, I still have like maybe 20,000.

Okay.

Put a few hundred dollars more a month in your 401k just because you have this freed up cash of not putting so much towards your debt each month, that could help you accelerate things further out too.

So

you are at this fork in the road, and it's not just like two paths you can take.

There are multiple different paths that you can take.

And again, I want to encourage you to talk with that CPA that you mentioned and model out what some different tax scenarios might look like depending on when you would sell the house and how much you might owe in taxes based on cashing out your 401k and

maybe getting money from this house too.

And then think as well around how much money you would have in your 401k in 15, 20 years based on what you might be able to contribute to that with the extra cash that you have in your budget each month.

So just get those numbers down.

I want to say I understand where you're coming from, Delius, because I started out wanting to be a full-time creative and then capitalism quickly chased me into full-time work.

So, which I love the work that I do, but you know, I've found a way to bridge the two, right?

But my point is, at that time, I was not really thinking about when I want to retire.

It was more like, like you said, how can I have the freedom and the financial capabilities to be able to do what I love indefinitely, really?

So, I think what you're seeing here is there isn't always just one right answer, right?

There are multiple options, and then you just have to decide which one is best for you.

If you do get to the point, well, when you do get to the point where you're buying you a house and you're saving towards that, in addition to Hyundai's savings accounts, you could put your money also potentially in a certificate.

of deposit.

So that's another saving vehicle that you can use where you're able to park your money and then you get a fixed interest rate and you can earn money on that.

So it's relatively low risk and you can usually get it at a bank or credit union.

Delius, I know we've run through a lot of different aspects of your finances and I'd love to hear how you're thinking and what you think your next steps might be.

I honestly thought you were you could possibly say like this is a completely bad idea.

Don't do it.

Do not sell your house.

I was completely, I was talking to my partner about that because he's against it too, but he's he's a lawyer.

I think that he was maybe hoping that you would say, don't do it, don't do it.

But what I'm hearing you say, which my intuition, I don't have all the language for it, but was that there's a lot of different ways to skin this cat.

And so

it probably would behoove me to really just thoroughly research all the different ways, look at all the numbers and really play the numbers game of which is the most cost-effective over the course.

It's the numbers game and it's also the game of the heart too.

What feels best to you?

I remember being financially free during the time that I was on Broadway and I felt like I was more of myself.

Like I was the person in the friend group who organized and helped and planned.

And I think now I just,

I really don't have that energy anymore.

Like I'm just kind of like trying to make sure I have my stuff together.

Yeah.

Yeah, I can feel it.

I'm sure you can get back to that place.

So it's just a matter of time and figuring out the best path there.

So, Delius, thank you so much for coming on and being so candid and open with us.

It's been a joy to chat with you and hear your story.

Of course.

Thank you so much for having me.

It's been a pleasure.

That's all we have for this episode.

Remember, listener, that we are here to answer your money questions.

So turn to the nerds and call or text us your questions at 901-730-6373.

That's 901-730-N-E-R-D.

You can also email us at podcast at nerdwallet.com.

And join us next time to hear about why some health insurance plans might get a lot more expensive next year and also what you can do about it.

Follow Smart Money on your favorite podcast app that includes Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and iHeartRadio to automatically download new episodes.

Here's our brief disclaimer and a reminder.

We are not your financial or investment advisors.

This nerdy info is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes and may not apply to your specific circumstances.

This episode was produced by Tess Viglund.

Hillary Georgie helped with editing.

Nick Farissimi mixed our audio.

And a big thank you, as always, to NerdWallet's editors for all their help.

And with that said, until next time, turn to the nerds.