NSBM After Hours: Anatomy of Lies Part 1

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Hello, it's Andrea.

We are going to be back with new episodes starting next week, but in the meantime, today I'm unlocking an episode from our subscriber-exclusive show, Nobody Should Believe Me After Hours, where Dr.

Becks and I cover a wide range of Munchausen and Munchausen by proxy-related pop culture.

These conversations are a little more casual, and I really enjoy having them.

Today, we're sharing the first in our multi-part series on the Peacock documentary, The Anatomy of Lies, all about Gray's anatomy writer Elizabeth Finch, who pulled some of Hollywood's biggest names into her complicated, abusive deceptions.

Just a reminder that as a subscriber, you get ad-free listening, you get all episodes of a new season the day they launch, and at least two bonus episodes a month.

We've also got lots of great extras from season six up there now, including a catch-up with Michelle, extended cuts of my conversation with Aunt Sabrina, my recap of the confrontation with Lisa, and more.

Subscribing is the best way to support the show, but as always, if that's not an option, rating, reviewing, and sharing the show wherever you talk to people also really helps.

And with that, here is the first part of my conversation with Dr.

Becks about the anatomy of lies.

If you just can't get enough of me in your ears, first of all, thank you.

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Hello, everyone.

Thank you so much, first of all, for being a subscriber.

I am back with Dr.

Becks,

who I haven't recorded with in a little while for the subscriber feed.

However, Bex has been with me quite a bit on the main feed, and we're working on a lot of things behind the scenes.

But I just wanted to say to everyone, thank you so much for your patience as I

for waiting for this episode, because I know I've been saying that we're going to cover Anatomy of Lies for a little while.

And

just to kind of

be transparent,

the case that we are working on for our next full season, season six, is

really difficult and it has just taken, I think,

a bigger emotional toll on me for a whole bunch of different reasons

than I sort of anticipated.

And

that has necessitated me taking some short breaks where I can, which is difficult with making this show because,

you know, I and none of these are complaints.

These are just to sort of give you guys a little bit behind the scenes.

But, you know, this show has become my full-time job.

I'm so grateful for that.

Obviously, we do cover really difficult material and we cover it really, really in depth.

And that,

you know, means obviously I have now a wonderful team, including Ubex, helping me do that, which is so appreciated.

But, you know, in between our full seasons, which take by far the most work, you know, we're also producing episodes for case files.

We're going to be doing some original reporting on case files with Ubex.

So everyone has that to look forward to.

But it has just been a massive challenge to sort of keep the show going, keep the business of the show going, keep the content going, and also

keep my mental health on track, which is sometimes the last thing I think about.

So

yeah, that's all just to say.

I really appreciate your support.

Subscriptions to the show are one of our main

thank you.

I just got a tea delivery.

Look at that.

Isn't that just nice?

Thank you, Kim.

kim i know she's the best uh

and uh kim is my is my nanny so she's upstairs with my son and she gives me a cup of tea um

but uh yeah subscriptions are are a main way that i am able to keep making this show and uh pay all of the fine people that work for me um and uh it is something that i think is probably going to be even more important given how uh

tariffs may impact uh many of the direct to consumer brands that make up my advertisers.

So just to say thank you all so much for your support and

yeah, and for being so engaged with this show.

So that's my preamble today.

And today we are going to talk about The Anatomy of Lies,

which is a peacock documentary about Elizabeth Finch.

And before we get into all of that,

Bex,

how are you doing?

How are you holding up?

Because you are doing a lot of reporting for the show

as well and really taking on some of these um

these duties in kind of a new way so how are you doing i think i'm doing okay i might have said a couple days ago i was kind of a little bit where you were there's um

been a lot i'm still working full-time at the hospital obviously and then um all of this and i think it's just starting to overlap more and more and um

a lot of people now coming to me, you know, where I know you were and you know this feeling of people kind of coming to you and asking for advice and asking for help.

And you want to be there for all of them.

But it also, you become the one, like that one person that people come to.

And I just think it, um, it's a lot on me, I think emotionally and mentally.

And I still have a bit of a,

I think a chip on my shoulder that I don't ever want to become not objective.

I've told you this many times, like that.

But the problem is if every single person comes to me whenever they're concerned about something, right, that I know in life, that anyone anyone comes to me it

it starts to be like that's all i'm seeing because that's what people are coming and asking me questions about and so i just think i'm still trying so much to like have something outside of all this so i remember you know that this isn't all there is but truthfully um i was talking to a friend the other day and this is not rare that's all i have to say like what this show and what presenting on the subject and talking to people in institutions all across the country and various walks of life.

It's not rare and people are seeing it and people are scared.

And I think

the fact that we're doing this show, although it takes its toll too, I know it does, like it is so important right now because this, it is happening and

we have to keep doing it because I just think it's so important.

Yeah, I really appreciate that perspective, Bex.

And I know, you know, for those who don't know, Bex is obviously working full-time as a pediatric hospitalist, but also has been, you know, you've been dedicating a lot of, you know, your time unpaid to doing presentations at conferences and really have become such a voice on this.

And it's so valuable to have someone who's in the medical community and has that perspective in addition to, you know, in addition to your research and reporting that you're doing for this show.

So it's just really valuable.

And I

think

it just doesn't seem like an accident that we both ended up here.

And I'm just so grateful.

You know, I'm great, I'm so grateful for how involved you've become.

And it's really helped me to not feel like, oh, I'm the only person that

people can go to.

And

yeah, and I mean, we're, you know, we're not alone.

We have amazing colleagues that we share on the APSAC committee, which VAX is now an official member of the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children's Spunch Housing by Proxy Committee.

You know, but it's, it's really, it's, it's intense and

it feels like really worthwhile work and, you know often feels like

exciting feels like a weird word but i think it does feel um

it feels good in a sense to sort of be on the vanguard of something and feel like you your work is is useful and helpful to people in reaching people i think that's all very um that's all very heartening and and for me certainly that helps uh that helps kind of counterbalance just

the despair that you can get into just on the individual level of seeing these cases.

It's just not easy to look at child abuse.

And then also, just like on the bigger level of like how the media is currently treating this issue of medical kidnapping, which we will get into.

But for today, we are in,

I don't want to say entirely lighter territory, but lighter territory, I would say, than what we're currently working on for

season six, for sure.

Today we are talking about the Peacock documentary three-part series on elizabeth finch and just a couple of disclaimers um at the top here this is based uh primarily on our watching of that series i have read the vanity fair piece i have read um a couple of like elizabeth finch's response to the story a while ago um but really today we are just going through uh the series if this is a case that you all are really interested in and want us to do a deeper dive on the Patreon and potentially maybe even put together an episode or two for the main feed, please let us know.

But, you know, this is where the Patreon is where we get to have a little bit of a lighter load in general.

But I do think this is a really interesting case.

And I think there's a lot more to get into that did not make it into this.

uh into this peacock series so let us know um where

you want us to take this and as always if there are other things uh that are sort of munchausen adjacent in pop culture, especially there are a lot of things right now with Scamanda and apple cider vinegar and the Bell Gibson story.

So just let us know what you're most interested in hearing about and we'll

direct our energies accordingly.

So Bax,

do you want to just

start by telling us where this story begins?

So we are in episode one, The Talented Ms.

Finch.

So for those who don't know anything about the background of this, this is the story of Elizabeth Finch, who in her probably biggest role as a writer was on Gray's Anatomy, although she wrote for shows like True Blood and Vampire Diaries early on in her career.

And she was a very successful writer on Gray's anatomy.

And during the course of her work on Gray's Anatomy, she also reported that she was suffering from a terminal bone cancer in her spine called chondrosarcoma.

And that was kind of where her medical story begins.

And it very much intertwines with her work as a writer on Gray's anatomy and

also

then into her personal life

when she kind of meets a partner and gets married and is involved with that partner's children.

So I think this is kind of unique for us.

I actually think it's the first time we're covering an actual Munchausen syndrome or factitious disorder imposed on self

diagnosis or thought.

I guess

that's what we're thinking or that's what it seems she is.

And so it's kind of interesting looking at it from this level because we're taking it back to the imposed on self, but there are still children involved in this story.

So I think.

as a Munchausen story, this one hit home, as does apple cider vinegar as well, with the impact that kind of is secondarily on the kids that are in the story.

So I think we'll probably focus a little bit on that as well.

Yeah, for sure.

And interestingly,

you know, we'll kind of get into our episode-by-episode breakdown of the story that this tells.

But interestingly, they really don't bring up Munchausen or Fectious Disorder Imposed on Another in the Peacock documentary.

I can't.

Yeah, the words actually don't come up now that you mentioned them.

They do not come up.

They do not talk to an expert.

And I think it's really interesting.

And I think one thing we can kind of unpack as we go through this is

what, and this is something I think about a lot:

what is the difference between someone who is a pathological liar,

you know, and someone who has this specific, you know, psychiatric diagnosis?

And like, where do those things cross over?

Where is the line?

What is, why does it become a medical thing?

Like, what is it?

Is it just the medical, you know, medical obsession plus, you know, these other traits, these other sort of personality disorder traits that make someone a pathological liar?

So

I think that's kind of an interesting piece to unpack, because I think what you see in this case is a lot of like other very,

you know, very deceptive, very manipulative behaviors that don't have anything to do with

medicine or a, you know, diagnosis.

but do sort of have that same framework of framing the person as a victim,

you know, exploiting traumas, this sort of like stolen valor element of it.

So I think that's really, I think that's really interesting to look at.

Okay, so

did you?

Sorry, go ahead.

Sorry, did you watch Apple Cider Vinegar yet?

Have you watched it out of curiosity?

I have not watched Apple Cider Vinegar yet.

So it is interesting.

At the last, the last part, I'm not going to spoil the story, but basically at the end, they play a run of the song Vampire by Olivia Rodrigo.

And it's one of my family's favorite songs.

That's weird.

It's we listen to it.

So I knew this song and it actually hit me because in the course of Anatomy of Lies, there is also someone along the way who calls Elizabeth Finch a trauma vampire, I believe is the terminology.

And it really was very interesting to me.

So I think as we talk through this, but this idea of

they are stealing other people's stories too.

Like they're going on blogs and they're reading what other people are actually suffering from.

You know, a lot of people I know reached out out to the show during the kwalski case about crps and saying

i really suffer from crps and this is making it harder for me to get care because people are now doubting me or my story and that's hard to hear but i think it's very true and this one i think captures it completely that it's not just stealing these medical stories but it's stealing all this trauma from people and making it their own and making theirs worse and more pertinent and kind of downplaying or somehow minimizing the other person's because yours is so dramatic.

And it's, I just, I feel for some of the people in this story very much so because people did seem to really care about Elizabeth.

And just the amount of that kind of sucking of information and of trauma was hard to watch.

Yeah.

I mean, that Olivia Rodrigo song is a banger and now I will surely listen to it in a new audience.

theme song.

Let me tell you.

Yeah, no kidding, right?

Let's just play it out and hope she doesn't sue us.

Okay, so this first episode of The Talented Ms.

Finch covers Elizabeth's sort of a little bit about her early life and kind of getting this job on Grey's Anatomy.

So, as you said, she was a television writer for other, for some other shows.

And it sounds like she just had this encyclopedic knowledge of Grey's anatomy, was just like a mega fan.

And so, they speak to kind of a number of people that knew her during this period.

So they talk to,

you know, someone who's a classmate of hers at USC.

They talk to a college friend called Aurora who comes up a bunch of times.

And they talk to like a former colleague of her from Gray's.

And,

you know, I think like one, I think one sort of overall critique I had of this series is that I, there were so many other sources that I wished that we'd heard from.

And that's just the nature of the beast.

you just can't always get people to talk about that.

But I did like with the classmate from USC, I was kind of like, I don't really understand who this guy is.

It's not clear to me that like he knew her that well.

And I, I think I just have a very heightened lens towards this because I always

when we're talking to sources, you know, you like when we're reaching out to sources about someone, you always kind of want to be a little bit, like, just a little bit cautious about like, oh, does this person just like have an axe to grind?

Or do they want their moment in the spotlight?

And I'm like, I think my sort of take on the male classmate from USC was kind of like, I I think this guy just wanted to be in a documentary.

It doesn't seem clear that he knew her that much.

But I think Aurora and Jen and then the writers were like the ones who I could like feel their emotional impact through, you know what I mean, through the screen that they were really affected.

Aurora really seemed like, yeah, she was very, was very close to her.

So they cover, you know, that she around this time has, you know, is reporting that she has this diagnosis of chondrosarcoma, you know, which you said is a serious brain or excuse me, serious bone cancer,

you know, that that can be life-threatening.

And

so it appears from the way that they tell this story that her diagnosis both helped her get this job and helped her keep it because,

you know, she didn't,

it sounds like she wasn't, you know, from the people we hear from, she wasn't like the highest performer in this writer's room.

And, you know, for those that, I mean, getting into a writer's room on a major show like this I mean that is one of the most competitive processes so I think we can probably assume that like she has a fair amount of talent she certainly seems smart um which is always you know like those are sort of the most diabolical of these offenders.

Certainly seems like people really liked her and that she was pretty charming and had a way to bring people in.

But I think like it's, it appears that that diagnosis and that story about her being sick got her a lot of special accommodations and,

you know, and like maybe disincentivized them from letting her go in circumstances where they might have otherwise, which I can understand, right?

It's like nobody wants to be the person to fire someone with cancer.

Right.

And I think hearing it from the writers, again, kind of during the course of the show, because you kind of play through with them there, when they were working with her, thinking she truly had cancer, and then kind of after the reveal and just how, you know, their emotions very much changed.

But it sounds like there were a lot of times where, you know, she would start writing something or something happened.

And then it was her work would kind of drift off and everybody else stepped up.

Because who doesn't step up for a colleague that has cancer or that's sick?

I mean, we all do it when people are on maternity leave.

We cover them, paternity leave, whatever it might be.

That's what you do as a colleague.

But it was interesting to me because the way writers' salaries work, they mentioned during the show, is that you aren't only paid for the work you do on the show.

You're paid every time the show airs in syndication, every time

your words are kind of spoken on screen, whether in repeats and on now all the streaming services, you get royalties for that.

So even though she was like the primary writer of an episode, all those other people who stepped in for her when she was sick are not getting the same royalties as she is.

So, there is in this one, there is that financial gain, too.

I think

that

I know was frustrating for these writers, but it was also that emotional heartstrings.

Like everybody stepped up for her.

And, like you said, even to the point that they said there, she basically she won't be fired.

So, she, in a way, she had the ultimate

protection.

And that's an interesting piece of the sick role:

that protection, I think.

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Yeah, absolutely.

And I think, you know, even though we have, as we've talked about with factitious disorders like malingering or malingering by proxy, where you are engaging in these behaviors for a material gain, so for money, for extra time off for work, for accommodations, to avoid getting fired, you know, I think those are like malingering behaviors, but I have never seen a case of Munchausen or Munchausen by proxy that didn't have some crossover, right?

So I think like there is also tangible benefits and it's sort of like that some, if someone would do it outside of those, which I think this, this certainly fits the bill because there weren't tangible benefits to all of these lies, but it seems like she used her cancer, her alleged cancer diagnosis pretty deftly.

So I just wanted to ask you, Bex, are you, what is your relationship with Gray's Anatomy?

Are you a fan?

That's a good question.

So actually,

I will admit seasons like one through three, I want to say I was in

school residency.

I don't know.

I was definitely early on.

And I was, I watched it religiously.

I did.

I loved the characters.

Patrick Dempsey,

like definitely one of my

dreamy.

Oh, for

McSeamy.

That was fun.

I'm definitely a McDreamy.

I'm a Patrick Dempsey, but I'm also old.

So that might make sense.

But

I think we're in the McDreamy demographic.

Oh, definitely.

And then you got a little gray, the little salt and pepper.

Anyways, sidetracked.

So, but I did watch it very religiously.

I remember up to the point, I remember very, very vividly the hospital shooter episode when the shooter came into the hospital.

And that one,

I mean, I was, I was affected by that.

That scared me.

It really brought home some things for me about what career I was getting into.

And then it just started to get to that,

I can't handle things when they start getting to that unbelievable level.

Like, how many things can happen at one hospital to the same people?

How many times can they die and come back to life?

Right.

It became very soap opera.

And I think it's that as a physician, too, there were starting to be a lot more medical discrepancies and things.

Like the surgeons were doing everything.

Let me tell you, surgeons operate.

All this other stuff that they were doing,

that sounds great.

But realistically, their job is to operate.

So I stopped watching probably season three or season four.

Yeah.

Okay.

You know, it all begs the question, Bex.

You know, we've got a show that is really pushing the boundaries of the believable.

You know, the medical information that it is presenting does not add up.

Does this show itself

have much?

Is it an allegory for?

Is it just attempting to get attention?

Because, you know, once you start asking, how does this series of terrible things keep happening to this same group of people I mean it makes actually that's so true that's kind of a joke but it does oh well done yeah you sort of think about like how Elizabeth exactly fits into this and you're kind of like I mean it seems like fertile ground for someone whose mind vibrates this way right I mean Meredith's life is like a walking

oh my god how did one more thing happen to Meredith Gray right it's just like if any of the characters on the show were presenting this series of events, we would have questions.

True, it's true.

Yeah, I mean, I watched the show in its early years.

I was a big fan in the early years.

I mean, I watched up through, like, I think where I lost it was with the whole Izzy and Denny

storyline.

There's like a scene where she kind of has like sex with his ghost.

And I was just like, I think I might be able to do that.

I didn't even know that.

Right.

And so, you know, this show for the unfamiliar, and I would love to hear from you all if you are fans when you stopped watching.

Are you still watching?

I think it's on episode, it's like on season 1026 at this point.

This is just like, but yes, to your point, it's like The Bachelor at this point.

Yeah, just

like unkillable.

Like, we'll keep going probably until they're like people stop watching.

But, you know, this is like, yes, to your point about like the revenue potential for the writers here, it's like, this is a show, especially like you know, the system and television in terms of like residuals and streaming is like changing a lot.

But like, certainly at this time when she joined the show, it was like that potential for income is just massive when you're talking about a hugely popular show that's on a network that is like a major sort of tentpole show for a network that's then being played in reruns forever and ever and ever.

Um, so yeah, um,

so I think uh, just some kind of pieces that stuck out to me from this first episode, as we just kind of trace her getting into

getting into her role in Grays.

You know, as we said, they speak to a college friend called Aurora, and she had some stories that just, I just was, I just found her to be very sympathetic and really thought, oh, this person just got, especially the geek, you know, you meet somebody

really young.

And I think the implication there, right, was that they were both,

was that they were both part of the like LGBTQ community.

Is that right?

Or am I making that?

Yep, and had a brief relationship at some point.

Yep.

Yes.

Okay.

Thank you.

I just got lost in the details there.

But so you can see like, you know, they connected in college, they had this experience and like together.

And you can see where like this bond formed maybe before some of these behaviors were so, you know, were getting so outrageous.

And I think that's a really, that really, you know, resonates with me as like,

like she knew her broken

pulled in.

Right, exactly.

Like when I think about sort of the trajectory that, you know, not only my own sister, but like a lot of these people go on, right?

Is like you made someone in their early 20s, like these behaviors might not be as extreme as they're going to get in like four, five, six years.

And there were a lot of parallels, I have to say, talking about Elizabeth's trajectory that really reminded me of Hope Yubara, who we covered in the first season of the show.

And she had this alleged, again, a form of bone cancer called Ewing sarcoma that's equally sort of like rare and aggressive.

And she, this detail about Elizabeth giving her friend Aurora a copy of the book, The Fault in Our Stars,

which is a young adult book about a girl who has cancer,

really reminded me of like, you know, Hopu Bar giving her brother the last lecture and this kind of just like sort of strange, like that she was being a little, it sounds like she was being a little like coy about it with her friend and this diagnosis.

And then her going to the Mayo clinic

with her.

Did that scene strike you also?

Oh, very much.

Because

this act, well, we may get into, I think we are going to get into the Belle Gibson story, but there's a scene about this in Apple Cider Vinegar as well with the, you know, always asking someone to sit in the car and not wanting someone to come in.

So driving to the treatments, but not coming in and

because they want privacy or don't want them to have to suffer through that.

But then Aurora describes a time where she actually went in because she was like, what am I doing?

This is my friend.

She's going through something.

Like, I want to be there.

And the wanting to go in really pissed elizabeth off like definitely got very angry um and

kind of you know accusatory or nasty to aurora and aurora said you know i let her get angry she was sick like you know she has a right to be angry and i think that's that mentality as well that you let people get away with things like there is right i mean you forgive them certain things i always say that about parents which reminds me kind of of the Kowalski when these doctors got on the stand and we're like, do you know how many times a parent yells at me in a day?

Like, it's not, this is not

that rare.

Like, people are going through stuff, they aren't at their best, they want to take it out on someone.

And so, I think we do, we forgive a lot.

And, um, and she said that, and it just, I think there was part of her who was, should I have, you know, recognized these signs earlier, but I just wouldn't have even thought it because she was my friend and she was sick.

And I was just going to keep being there.

You know, I wasn't going to ask the hard questions.

Yeah.

And I think, like, you know, we don't like, there's a very, you're in two very different mindsets if you sort of like, you know, and we'll talk about sort of how, how Jen went through her ex-wife went through this evolution of like, you know, when you are in believing mode, you're looking at things very differently from when you get into like sort of investigator mode, right?

And so I think like those are two really different lenses.

And yeah, it struck me that Aurora said, you can forgive anything when your friend tells you they're dying.

And I'm like, well, that's really like kind of the heart of it right there.

Exactly.

And that was the, that's the line I think I highlighted as well.

And it, I said, it has links to apple cider vinegar that we can talk about after we cover that.

But a very similar thing with

Belle's partner going through very similar of

wanting to put her on the spot, wanting her to be honest, wanting her to show him, you know, records and things like that.

And then when she didn't want to, him saying, but she was sick.

She has a right to not show me those things, you know, or whatever.

And so again, like this feeling that something doesn't feel right, but you would never,

you're just like,

yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I think, you know, just to say, like, with both of us, you know, you're sort of talking at the top of the episode about how, you know, when you're looking at these cases all the time, you can get into this mindset of like,

you know, oh, am I so fixated on this that I'm seeing it everywhere?

But I think you and I have really strong like checks and balances for that.

Of like, we also understand that,

you know, you don't judge someone just on how they're acting.

Like if they're acting weird or they're acting erratic, like stress,

dealing with illness, the healthcare system's insane, you know, all of those things can make people act strange.

And acting strange is not the same as one of these behaviors.

So,

yeah, I think that's kind of like, but you can see how when people are getting caught into it, they're like, well, I haven't had cancer.

I wouldn't know what that's like.

So maybe this is how people act, you know, and it wouldn't necessarily stick out to them.

Right.

And I think in my career, if I get, you know, the feeling, or I'm questioning, or I start to notice behaviors, I do have the benefit of having the medical record that I can look back at and see.

And I've told you the cases I have reviewed, I am searching for the real diagnosis.

Like I am looking because I want to be proved wrong when I'm going backwards.

And often, as you know, when we've dug into these cases,

it only multiplies.

And it's, it's,

it almost makes me sick to my stomach because i'm like come on just one just one i want to go back and i want to realize and not to say i have not been wrong like when my spidey sense goes off a little bit for sure but like the ones once i start doing a deep dive into the ones that are extremely concerning it is

it's like you want to find it and you don't you just find more deception or more falsification or more question marks than you started with.

And I'm sure that's how these people feel, but they don't even have a medical record.

They're still, their only source of information is the person.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean, the reality is like, we don't, you know, sort of like, you know, our tagline for the show is like, people, like, people believe their eyes, right?

And it's like, I mean, this happened to me recently with someone I know in a different context, but where, you know, like you meet a person and you get to know them in real life, and you're not necessarily like

going to go down some internet rabbit hole about them, but then maybe like something starts to seem a little bit off, and then you do, right?

But it's like the offness has to sort of like build, and you're probably not gonna go down that rabbit hole on the first sign of something being off, it's gonna be like a couple of things over time, you know.

So, yeah, it's just to give a lot of grace to people that get that get pulled up in these.

So,

you know, so she goes about her work at Graves, and now she gets into this kind of pattern of,

as you said, you know, like

vampire behavior.

Ironic, because she did write on not one, but two vampire shows.

I know, the irony, right?

Yeah.

And this is, well, it's like, it kind of makes sense, right?

In a way, it's like

vampires and medical stuff.

Like, that's what she, those are the shows she she wrote on.

So it's like, I know,

this, like, this, put her sort of obsessions to some use there.

And unfortunately, could not keep it confined.

And, you know, I thought it's like, I'm, I'm a fiction writer, and I've thought many times, I'm like,

why can't these people just funnel this into fiction?

And it's, it's interesting because she did, but like, also, like, she was not, there was no line between the fiction she was creating for, you know, her television shows and the fiction that she was creating in her own life story.

So unfortunately, it's just like, oh, there just was like no barrier there.

So she writes, you know, an Elle magazine story about her cancer.

And there's this like Friday Night Lights support campaign with like Kyle Chandler, coach.

By the way, I love that show.

I love him too.

Yeah.

I just love that whole show.

And she writes an episode based on her cancer that gets a lot of attention.

I will say, like, I think just because even in this era, like the sort of 2015, like Grays had already gotten like pretty melodramatic.

And so whenever in the peacock doc, they like interspersed these clips from the shows, like it just was, I don't know.

I just thought that was funny.

I thought it was like unintentionally funny.

No, I think it's, it's what you said is actually so accurate that like, but you almost wonder, it's like when she kind of, you know, joined the show.

I agree, it was probably already starting to escalate.

But then I kind of do want to go back at some point and watch the couple episodes or some of the ones that she wrote that they really kind of talked about

and see if I would, I'm just wondering if I would have watched them at the time and been like, something about this is sus or something.

I don't know.

Let us know, subscribers, if that's a project that you want us to undertake.

I think we could go

down about a thousand Elizabeth Finch travel holes.

So if you guys have the appetite, just let us know.

It's fun for us when we get to watch TV.

I mean, that's like fun watching, right?

Exactly.

Yeah, that's fun TV watching.

So, you know, around this time, and it was very interesting, like having this be, you know, so relatively recent, but like just really remembering all of these, you know, movements and just being in a very different timeline than we are now.

So this was, you know, around the time that the Me Too movement started.

And so, you know, she then starts claiming that she had been sexually harassed on the set of vampire diaries.

I think she also wrote about that as well, did she not?

I think it came into, I think everything came into the story somewhere along the way.

This one was back more to her time on vampire diaries, but it sounds like it's something that she did continue to hold fast to, even as we get further into the story.

This piece, she never.

She never wavered and said that, you know, there was a director or producer that,

you know, harassed her.

But the thing is, I think there's,

it sounds like from other writers on the show who actually went out and questioned her and asked her about these things that there was a lot of,

like,

I don't know.

I don't want to discount that this happened.

But again, it's just like when the pattern of things add up.

But it sounds like some of the writers and people that worked with her had questions about that being true as well.

Yeah, and she never named the person.

And now, also to put a caveat there that there's lots of reasons that you wouldn't necessarily name name a person in this context, right?

Because you're afraid of retribution or blowback from someone that you're legitimately scared of.

And I think the

claims of both sexual harassment and sexual assault that come up in these cases, which they almost always do.

I mean, they are so ubiquitous.

This is something we struggle with so much on the show because

you

don't want to just assume that someone is lying just because they've lied about other things, right?

Because unfortunately, sexual harassment in Hollywood, sexual assault, you know, broadly is very common.

That's what the whole Me Too movement movement was about.

And so that's not to say that it could not have happened to one of these folks that is claiming it, but it's so frequently, you know, the nature of the accusation is not corroborable or like verifiable or, you know, it just seems sort of suspect on its face.

And then you have to put it in the context of someone who would lie about something really serious for attention and once someone's proven that they would do that you know i think it is it is appropriate to see that with a certain level of uh suspicion and then but also you never sort of just want to blanket say anything i know i never want to

i get this gut feeling where i'm like ah i don't want to take that lightly because i know that could have also maybe been a trigger for other things later if that did happen to her.

I don't know.

I think I, so I do agree with you.

I think we do this every time, but it's, um,

it is, it's still that, it's being a woman, it's being, um,

having been present during all the me too stuff and knowing how much is going on.

So, having this empathy for these people and these women, and then at the same time, questioning her, her version of the story.

But it's kind of, I tell my kids, like the never cry wolf, right?

You, I mean, it goes back to that.

That's like a fable, right?

Or something like the idea that

you have to be careful because if you are constantly saying something what about the one time they yell from the other room you know he got hurt and i'm like oh my god like hurt hurt or hurt hurt you know what i mean and i have to run out and look but it's like what about the one time that it really is so it's you you know you have to there is something about taking things with a grain of salt at some point when it just lines up time and time and time again and i'm sure there's one that's true somewhere in there but how do you how do you suss it out i guess right and you know also, I think it's really worth mentioning and examining.

And part of what this sort of the overall picture of the harm that these people can cause is much like, you know, they can throw doubt on certain diagnoses or certain, you know, things that are very real, but that they are faking.

The same thing, right?

I mean, lying about, you know, if this was a lie, if this was a fabrication, again, we don't, it doesn't sound like we know one way or the other, but certainly it was suspect.

You know, that does an incredible amount of damage to other victims of that and other survivors who, you know, at this time in large numbers were coming forward with their stories.

And, you know, I really remember,

you know, from there was these two stories that were, and I don't know if this is sort of like in the same general time period, but the, you know, Duke La Crosse case and then the, and then the case, the UVA case, the Jackie case, which was covered by Rolling Stone.

And those stories were were later found to be not credible and full of holes and like bad reporting and like all kinds of things.

And that then unfortunately, you know, that's obviously sad for everyone involved.

That's sad for the people who were, you know, like for the, you know, boys team, lacrosse team that was, that was wrongly accused and for, you know, the people involved in the Jackie story.

But it also, you know, then really gives a lot of,

gives a lot of

credence to this idea that like, that, oh, like women women are just lying, or they would just come, or they would just do that for attention.

And, like, the reality is, a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of people would ever do that for attention, but they exist, you know.

And I've asked Mike Weber, you know, is a frequent contributor, like, about this question of like, well, when people lie about sexual assault, like, what are the sort of circumstances when that happens?

Like, is it like, how rare is these?

Very rare.

And what you would look for is, you know, I mean, number one, like, because I think it's so tricky with sexual assault because there,

like, there are often other circumstances where people don't have perfect memories or couldn't corroborate the details and it did happen, right?

So that, that alone is not like lack of hard evidence is not, again, that may make it not criminally prosecutable.

That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

But so I think that's where it gets so tricky.

But he says, like, you know, if you're looking for, you would look for sort of a history of someone lying purposefully to hurt other people or or purposely for sort of like personal gain and attention.

So, I think this pattern of like being a pathological liar is like that's when it usually comes up, or someone like is doing it in a custody dispute or, you know, like that kind of thing.

So, I think, you know, it is important, like, we sort of can't pretend that these

that false accusations never happen because we need to be aware of the circumstances under which they do happen so that we can sort those out from the vast majority of other instances where people would never have anything to gain by making a false accusation.

And I think it's actually like that is the framework that, you know, we are forever in search of

a case of a genuine false allegation of mentasm by proxy.

We have not found one yet.

And that's it's still one of my bones of contention because I think

I just can't say enough that reporting child abuse is a hard decision every single time.

It is never with a wonton disregard for all these things that we do it.

It is not.

There is no money in our pockets.

There is no benefit to the hospital for keeping these kids.

I promise you, it is not financial gain.

It is a hard decision, as is separating a child, unless you know it could save their life or their well-being or whatever.

And so in these cases as well, it's like, it's

I will never judge someone like based on, you know, their recollection or their reporting of something like that.

And even in this case, that was the part that I almost just kind of breezed over and was like, I really hope that didn't happen to her.

But I'm going to focus more on these other parts that you could kind of prove or know didn't happen

and leave that as if it happens, I feel for her.

I hope she's, you know, processing that or whatever happened.

But it's all the other ones that really just built the

that one aside, everything else still built the tower, I guess, in my mind, as far as my concerns.

concerns.

Yes, I, yes, me too.

And I think, um, oh, me too.

Yeah, I mean, I think, like, also, it's just like, this is, this is very interesting.

I think, like, Elizabeth Finch is around our same age.

So it's like, there's a lot of like shared cultural context.

Oh, yeah.

I was just thinking like, you know, like when I was in my 20s working in New York, I mean, sexual harassment was just like.

of the air we breathe you know it's just like it just was like really cannot emphasize enough hopefully this is not quite this i don't think it's as bad after me too i mean i don't think it's done all the things that we hoped that me too would do but i do feel like people are at least a little who knows now in trumps america but uh people are like a little bit more aware of this and like just like oh yeah like you just really can't like

you know say things like that in a work environment um but i mean it's just like oh my god like every myself and every girl I know just got like constantly sexually harassed at work.

And I didn't even, it was not even that many men around.

Like I worked in book publishing.

So for the most part, it was like a safely

hole and I can tell you it happened, and that's sad.

I worked in restaurants, like, I mean, like, restaurants, which is like a sexual harassment factory when you're a young woman, so it's just like, you know, it's like, yeah, that all stuff was like all really, um, yeah, it was all really pervasive.

And I'm glad that there has been pushback.

And also, like,

yeah, I think this is, this is just a tough one to like, it can be also like quite tough to quantify exactly like what is, you know, anyway, whatever, that's like a whole other rabbit hole.

But, um, but yeah, so this is like during this period, you know, we're like 2018 now.

Um, she just really like seems to have, and she's writing a lot of personal essays during this time for like women's magazines and stuff, um, which just makes me jealous because I was always wanting to write for some of these same outlets.

So, uh, you know, I just feel a little bit salty about that.

Just like, um, this is me when I was younger.

I wanted to be a magazine journalist.

Anyway, um,

you know, where she sort of has a connection to every major thing that's going on.

So she, you know, has the sexual harassment claim during me too.

And then,

you know, there's a big conversation in 2018 because of this, like, unfortunately, successful rollback of reproductive rights.

There's a lot of conversation about people being, you know, more forthright about their adoption.

There's this shout your abortion movement, which I could be wrong.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Feel free.

But I think was started by Lindy West, who's a Seattle writer who I really admire.

Sounds right to me.

Yeah.

And so so then she discloses that she had an abortion because of her cancer treatment, which is another

really strong parallel to Hope Ybara, who, you know, said that she lost a pregnancy, lost a twin pregnancy because of treatment, chemotherapy that she was undergoing for her Ewing sarcoma, which of course never existed, nor did those babies.

So I think immediately that was one where I was like, hmm.

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Oh, that part got me.

Again, it's like knowing, I think we all know humans that have gone through real similar situations, you know what I mean, in life and whatever.

And so it just, when you line them up, it just starts getting kind of, you get very frustrated.

But her whole, you know, if I continued chemo, it would harm the baby.

If I stopped the chemo, my cancer would get worse.

I had the ultimate,

you know, decision to make that like lose, lose, there's no way, you know, and I had to make this terrible decision, you know, to have an abortion.

And again, it was not just the story.

It was the worst version of the story that I didn't want to, but I had to.

And her quote that I wrote down was, I just wish people would know, like, I'm more than the tumor in my spine.

I'm more than what my uterus can or can't do.

Like, so feeling like the woman piece of that.

And I know people who have lost fertility because of, you know, cancer treatments or whatever things have occurred.

And it's just, when you,

just when you've lived enough, enough life, you've seen it really happen.

And so when you start to hear these, you just can't help but get, you know, get angry.

And that quote just, I was like,

whoo,

she just,

she just says all the right things to make people feel, you know, sympathy for her.

And it's a real, like, there's a really like melodramatic tone to it.

And it's always like this framing, which I feel like, again, feels very familiar to me of like, I don't want sympathy.

Like, I am going to write a 2,000-word essay on this and talk about it all the time on social media, but it's not because I want sympathy.

And sort of like, it gets couched in this language of like, I'm raising awareness or I'm part of like this movement.

And like, to say, like, that all can be extremely valuable.

And I, like, a lot of women were speaking up about a lot of

really hard things during this time.

And it was getting the, it did.

I mean, I do think, again, like, Mewtwo movement, all this stuff was not perfect, did not quite have the, you know, effects that we would all hope, was not perfectly executed, was not perfectly inclusive.

All that is true.

And like, I do think it was a shift in society, having been a young person before it.

And, you know, that's really to be admired.

And also, people just like have the right to tell their personal stories.

But again, sort of just like using that the way that she did.

And also, I mean, like, and I can't, I know, listen, with the

recognition that sexuality can be fluid, that it can be encompassing of many different, you know, eras and partners over time.

I wish they had sort of explored like, okay, did she have any relationships with men?

I thought about that too.

that could have resulted in a pregnancy.

Because it's just another, you know, again, it's not to say that like, obviously, again, with all of those caveats, but like, it's another piece of the story that sort of makes it less likely um to be true and so or cast sort of some additional questions on um on on the on that piece of the story

um so then the next big thing that we have her sort of uh claiming to be a piece of is this tree of life synagogue that happen a shooting there's a horrific hate crime far-right shooter that um shot up a synagogue killed a number of people It was an absolutely horrific event in October of 2018.

So, Bexia, can you tell us what we learned about her claims as to her connection to this event?

So, this actually did happen close to where I grew up.

And so, I did hear about it kind of firsthand from people that lived in the area or people that either were, you know, have been first responders, those kind of things, or just, again, when it happens, it's like when Pulse, I say that word wrong, people make fun of me, the Pulse shooting that happened here in Orlando.

Like, no, I didn't know anyone that was there that night, but I know people who go to that club, and it's across the street from the bagel shop where I take my kids.

So, there is something to be said.

Like, when

something happens in your hometown or in your town, like it does, it hits different.

There's something more real about it.

When people you know can send you pictures because they live down the street or whatever.

But in this case, she

basically told the people at Gray's that, you know, quotes such as, you know, cleaning up what was left of my friend.

So not just that it happened, but it happened to a friend.

And not just that, that she was physically the one there at the synagogue cleaning up the bodies.

So not just she maybe knew someone, not just it was in her hometown, not just whatever.

It was that she was at the epicenter.

She was cleaning up.

you know, the bodies and that that must have been so traumatic.

And people saying, it's just like when the people are saying, and all I could think was, man,

Finch just can't catch a break, you know, and it's, yes, I get that.

We've all known people who get in a rut where you're just like, gosh, darn it.

Like, can something just go right?

But this, I mean, this just started to be like

everything that happened that year also happened to her and happened worse.

Yeah, it's just her putting herself at the center of every

major conversation that's happening in the headlines.

It's like, she, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, and, and the sort of, um, again, I think it's one of those things where,

you know,

she

like

is

saying these things.

Okay, I'm in this synagogue cleaning up body parts.

Like, if you, if you are looking at it from a very sort of like, just in the context of this story, where we know her to be dishonest and like also just like looking at it from a sort of dispassionate lens, because she was tweeting about it and stuff.

So it's like, if you just saw one of those tweets, you might be like, that's weird.

Like, why is a writer from California being called upon?

Like, why would they even let her in there?

Like, it's, you know, like, doesn't, it doesn't make any sense, right?

But it's just not, again, like, if someone is telling you this in the context of it's a tragedy, you don't necessarily look at it that way.

And people, like, because people have compassion and empathy for others, they just sort of go, oh my God, that's so horrible.

And like, don't necessarily pick it the, pick it apart.

Or maybe they sort of file it away as like, that seems like a weird thing.

Maybe she's kind of exaggerating a little bit, but there is, this is basically true and they're just sort of you know exaggerating a detail or two um so that will definitely come back around yeah um

and uh then we also speak to a um

we hear from a former colleague kylie reed uh about a story that she confided

to Finch about that then ended up being the basis for an episode of Grey's called Silent All These Years.

And again, this was very much during the Me Too era,

the Brett Kavanaugh hearings, kind of this, like the longer tale, I would say, of the like sort of Me Too era.

And I have, I have thoughts about this as a writer.

Bex, how did this piece of the story kind of strike you?

I liked Kylie personally.

I thought she was.

She's the right bit of sassy.

Like you could tell she, when they were asking her about pre all of this happening, she was like, Yeah, I really liked Pinch, but like you could tell, like it was like, she couldn't wait to finally say, like, what she kind of really thought, which I'm sure it's hard to put yourself back in that spot where you did believe everything.

It's hard to go back to that.

Like, once you've seen the truth, it's hard to remember what that felt like to trust her and believe her.

So I did feel for Kylie.

And

I think.

I can't imagine knowing I have a friend who is a writer of any sort.

I mean, you're a writer, right?

But if if I told you something in confidence about my life, something traumatic, something I went through, and you just went on to write about it in a hypothetical sense and then take the credit for the story and then get accolades for that story.

And in this case, Kylie was also a writer.

So she could have written her own story.

Yeah.

Right.

If she wanted to write about it, she could have written about it.

It was like, and then it doesn't even sound like Finch came to her and said, hey, I know you told me this.

Like I am thinking about writing an episode about this, right?

No, it was like when they came into the writer's room, Kylie's like, hold on a second.

And, you know, the story of Kylie is that, according to her, she found out in this kind of time period that

sadly, her biological father, who she'd never known, was actually her mother's rapist.

And there are stories like this, especially now in the ancestry DNA age, where we can find out things that parents maybe kept from children their whole lives when they realized they could go out and do their DNA and find out it was not true.

I think it's forcing parents are being more honest with their kids and kind of telling them the story.

And then this is where the character Jo on Grey's Anatomy really starts playing a big role as almost this

alter ego of

Finch, or like that she feels very connected to this character.

And as a result, the stories of Joe seem to start very much paralleling the stories of Finch.

The first being that Joe finds out that she was conceived

during the act of a rape against her mother.

And then that this episode became very, very like highly, like I said, highly accoladed.

There were a lot of people talking about it.

And it's probably one of those episodes.

To be honest, I don't remember when it came out, which surprises me.

I'm surprised it didn't just like come up on my feed, but it sounds like something that people were very moved by.

And I don't know if you want to tell about like the picture in the Met, like the picture they took with all the staff.

Yeah, so this, I think this came out around the Brett Kavanaugh hearings in 2018, which I think it was all that same year.

Yeah.

Yeah, I really remember this time because

I was

just a side anecdote, but if the Patreon and subscriber feeds are not for that, then what are they for?

I remember this very vividly because I was listening to the Brett Kavanaugh hearings on NPR while I was driving down to go walk my dog and i was one billion months pregnant because it was right before i had my daughter fiona pregnant with my first and i was just like in so much rage um about it and then like that was the day that an old man decided to walk up to me and rub my belly and say wow you look as big as a house and i mean i think that this senior citizen is lucky that I just only yelled at him because boys are.

But anyway, that is, again, aside.

It's crazy how you can remember those things, though, right?

Like where you were exactly when something happened.

It's like a really,

and like the, you know, so it's like Christine Blasey Ford was, was testifying and incredibly brave.

You know, and so this was like a moment of

sort of

it was just a real like national moment, right?

Where it was like we were watching someone, I think like so many of us really admired her for doing that.

And then it was so heartbreaking that he got confirmed anyway.

And it didn't seem to sort of slow anything down.

And this was like our, you know, this this is the sort of early chapters of a moral crisis that we are now like majorly in the throes of.

But there was a lot, a lot of conversation about, about these, you know, how we should sort of like look at these incidents and all that stuff.

So I think this came out around that time, which was why it hit so hard.

And so, yeah, they had this scene.

And I, again, because I don't know what happened in the episode, I don't know exactly what the context, but they're wheeling, they're wheeling,

you know, patient down the hallway because then they have like a rape in the hospital or something where there's like a rape rape pregnancy in the hospital.

I think that's completely good, like a fur patient.

And that's why it all comes out, yes.

That's why it all comes out.

And so they're wheeling this patient down the hall.

And in this scene, they get kind of like all of the female members of the cast and all of the female members of the writing staff lined up, um,

lined up along the hallway that they're wheeling her on.

And then they have several, you know, people in scrubs

pushing the gurney down the hallway.

And Elizabeth Finch is in scrubs and she gets a cameo and she's like pushing the,

you know, pushing the bed down the hallway.

And then they like pan to like poor Kylie, you know, who's like on the, just like standing, just kind of with the ranks and like doesn't get the, doesn't get the sort of like central, central casting.

So I have to say with this story, I do feel I liked Kylie as well.

And I think she probably at some point kind of looked, because I think she's a bit younger.

So she probably looked to Elizabeth Finch as someone she admired at one point.

And I think that that would feel horrible to have your personal experience, like,

you know, feel like it had been exploited in that way.

However, I will say, like,

now, obviously that exact thing is not something that I would ever do.

But, I mean, there is kind of a like.

bad art friend, if maybe the only one who maybe remembers this scandal.

But if anyone else is like big into like publishing scandals, which, you know, are very like intramural, you know, there's this article,

this is like this in the New York Times like years ago about this like, again, very like writerly, nerdy sort of debacle where like someone had told a story about

donating a kidney and then they told their friend that and then their friend worked it into their short story and like

sound really obnoxious and then it was like this whole debacle of like she tried to sue her and it was like a whole thing and it was like, it was kind of like, okay, well, we do have to sort of distinguish between, I think what this made me think of is like,

we do have to distinguish between like, that's bad behavior.

And like, you, you could argue, I think that that's, that's pretty unethical, but it's like, that's just kind of like being a shitty friend, right?

Like, it's not necessarily like, that is something that writers, especially like, you know, people in this very competitive environment of like a writer's room.

I mean, writer's rooms, like I've never been in one, but I have friends talked to, you know, I've friends that have written for television.

I mean, this is a savage environment, you know, like it is a very, very competitive.

So I think like that kind of qualifies as something that like someone who is nowhere near as extreme as Elizabeth Finch, like probably also may have done.

So it's not to excuse it, but I think this was just like, this was like in a slightly different category for me.

And I gather that the actress and Finch have maintained that this was about the Brett Kavanaugh hearing, you know, sort of inspired by the Brett Kavanaugh hearings rather than being based on Kylie's story.

But I think, like, I mean, I believe Kylie, that she told her that.

And I believe that Elizabeth Finch stole that and put it in her writing and used it and exploited it.

Again, pattern, pattern of right, again, because of the pattern, right?

But I just, this just did strike me as like a little bit,

like not on the level of like her other wrongdoings.

And but I think it started a precedent, right?

Of

kind of this was like the first time she kind of at least started to work things in that were there, you know what I mean?

And then the pattern starts happening more and more where things are happening to her that then are paralleling into

Yes.

I think it just I think the reason it sort of struck me as a little bit funny.

What the thing about it that struck me as a little bit funny is the idea of like the people who, you know, like the Vanity Fair writer or like the people who are, you know, at Peacock making this documentary sort of acting pearl clutchy about that when I'm just like, okay, this is something that everyone knows like happens in writer's rooms all the time.

So like, don't be friends, writers.

No, you know, and then the and the end, yes, and the uh, the lesson is don't be friends with any writers.

No, I'm just kidding.

Um, but yeah, so, um, but you know, writers' rooms, like Hollywood writers' rooms in particular, I would say.

Um, other writers are obviously guilty of it as well.

But, uh, but yeah, I still feel like you go to your friend and you're like, hey, I'm writing this episode.

I don't want it to bring up your trauma or something, right?

I wouldn't do it.

Like,

again, just to be clear, I'm not excusing it or saying, like, I'm just saying that like, it's probably a lot of writers that, like, in Hollywood in that company.

Are using some pieces might do something like that.

You know, again, not to say it wasn't a shitty, not to say that Kylie Reed did not, yeah, appreciate, you know, as a friend, like someone being, you know, more sensitive than that, obviously.

Hope I don't get canceled for that take.

Anyway,

so then around this time, again, as you're saying, she's sort of like merging with this proxy character, Joe, on the show.

And then

Finch in 2019 checks herself into PTSD treatment.

And

I believe the tree of life shooting that she was allegedly present for

was the trigger for this PTSD.

That is her reasoning to the show for why she's seeking treatment.

Right.

And it was in Tucson, Arizona.

It's called Sierra Tucson.

And basically, when she went there, one of the little ironic pieces is she went by by Joe when she was there, which is the name of the character on Grey's Anatomy.

So again, there's this weird kind of connection.

And I'm sure that's, I mean, I don't know.

Like you said, I've never been in a writer's room, but I'm guessing like even when I watch shows, there's always the one character that I'm like, oh, she's kind of like me, you know what I mean?

Or someone that you would, I can still remember.

Do you remember Life Goes On, the show with.

the little boy with Down syndrome, the brother with Down syndrome, and Patty LePoint?

Corky?

Yeah, Corky.

Yeah, okay.

Yes, I I do.

I do.

So Becca was Kelly Marlon.

And her name was Becca.

And she looked like me back in the day, like glasses, the short hair, all that stuff.

So I just remember connecting with her.

So I can see where, like, there, or, you know, there's going to be a character that you feel more strongly probably attached to.

However, like using the name in the re like the facility also just a little odd.

And then again, this is where she meets Jen Beyer, which, whoo, whoo, I, I,

I don't know.

I just want to put out there that I just, I feel, I felt every emotion she felt when she talked.

She was so genuine and real to me.

And someone who like is probably way too much of an empath at

like to some fault probably in my life over time of like taking on people's, but like just her body language and how how she would, I don't know, I could very much feel this.

And I know this was still very new when she came out and spoke about it.

So I give her a lot of credit.

She has been through a lot.

And she was very, just right off the bat, I had a lot of empathy for her.

And I didn't even yet know how

much of a victim she was going to be.

Yeah, I mean, the Jen, Jen, I think was like, A, the strongest source because she just was, you know, so close to Finch for so much of this and probably the most, her and her children are the most impacted.

And yeah, I really did find her like to be very,

to be very seemingly like just credible and empathetic and again I did have not done any due diligence on her so I don't you know there's she has a really complicated backstory it would be interesting to look into it but she certainly comes across and I know she's doing well I think the last I looked like the

she and her kids are doing very well so that's what I only hope will continue to be so we can we can hold on to that as we kind of go through all of this right horrible horrible stuff um yeah and so she checks in and and calls herself Joe.

I mean, yes, I think that does kind of fall under the category of like, you know, like weird, artsy weirdo shit that someone also might do if they were not this person.

But I mean, heck, I have a pseudonym.

I shouldn't probably talk, but, you know, talk to me about that.

Yeah, I mean, and like, you know, but I also think like part of actually what struck me about that more than just like this sort of the using the fake character's name,

you know, is like this idea that, yeah, because I think as a writer, like, I can understand like really identifying with a character you're writing about.

They get very in your head, like, that makes sense.

To me, it's really the self-aggrandizement piece of like, oh, I have to use an alias because I am so famous that, you know, everyone will just like want to get close to me.

Or, like, cause that was what she's saying.

It was like my privacy.

And I'm just like, people don't know television writers.

Like, right?

You know, like, you're not.

And I'm guessing there wasn't internet at all.

I mean, yeah, this is like, you're not like, it's just not that, it's just like not that serious.

I mean, that would be like, yeah,

it just, it just that, the self-aggrandizing piece, I think, was the, was the thing.

And it's like, do you, or are you just like looking for another reason to lie?

Um,

so she starts around this time, um, this also story comes about, uh, she, her telling her uh friend Aurora, I believe is the person we hear this from.

Um,

uh, Elizabeth starts claiming that her older brother, Eric, was abusive.

Um, And

the people I wanted to hear from the most that they do not talk to are the brother and the parents, who also understandably maybe have no interest in being public about this experience, but I certainly would be curious to know what their feelings are.

I think he's a physician.

He is.

Yeah.

He's a doctor.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And

yeah.

So, I mean, that whole thing, and again, you know, like these allegations about abuse and childhood, that is another really tricky piece of these cases because this is is something people are always asking us about.

Like, oh, does this person have like what kind of like looking for the reason of like, what made this person this way?

And they look at, you know, oh, well, were they abused as a kid?

And it's like, well.

they started saying they were once they were really on this trajectory of terrible behavior.

And of course, some of them were like some perpetrators are abused.

Unfortunately, child abuse is common.

But yeah, it's also something that like every offender at some point says that they were abused.

So it's again, just difficult to get to the bottom of.

But, yeah, so she checks in, and as you said, she meets Jennifer.

And so, tell us a little bit about Jennifer's backstory as we know it at this point, because it is so harrowing.

And just, yes, Jennifer, Jen's story is just so heartbreaking.

And this stuff has been, I believe, you know, fact-checked.

So, this story is very much real and very, very traumatic watching it.

So, I mean, the very basics is that Jen is a mother to five beautiful children.

And the father is this guy, Brendan, who

was both physically and mentally abusive to Jennifer.

And to the point that she had a restraining order against him.

And again, the shake in her voice and the sound of how she talked to me,

I just, I.

That is somebody who's been abused.

It was just so telling that it still affects her despite how strong she is now and how well she's doing.

But basically to the point that she was having, you know, dissociative episodes and developing her own extreme psychiatric issues because of all this trauma.

And she ends up losing her children or her children going to state custody.

And so this is kind of part it sounds like maybe of like a mandated where she had to get help so she could get her kids back.

But she also wanted the help because she wanted to get her kids back.

So she was going and truly trying

to,

you know, process what happened to her and get to a point, like she even felt unsafe taking care of her kids at this point, which was so sad.

Like she was like,

yes, people are saying I'm not safe to take care of my kids, but like, I don't know if I'm safe.

Like I was in such a bad place, you know, and that she wanted to be better because she loves these kids above everything.

And she goes to a place.

where she thinks she will be safe, where she will be helped, which it sounds like the other people around her very much were helping her.

And then to meet someone like Joe slash Elizabeth Finch,

who,

again, the story of the brother and the abuse came up after Jen started telling her story about the abuse she suffered at the hands of Brendan.

And so it was that

taking a story, making it your own, but then also

making it very dramatic.

And then kind of she continued that story then with the people she knew back home and,

you know, used it kind of for

sympathy, whatever it was kind of at home.

Mirroring her.

And yeah, this whole story about Jen, and again, she doesn't get into a ton of specifics, but it really, it made me sad for so many reasons because, you know, we do talk about these other circumstances where

mothers or just parents, like mothers can harm their children because they are having mental health issues and, you know, being so deliberate to distinguish something like postpartum psychosis or a dissociative episode as things that can be can be harmful to kids right obviously like if you have a parent that's having that struggle with their mental health you may not for a period of time be a safe caretaker for your kids and that's really heartbreaking but that those should be treated so differently than you know someone who's engaging in munchausen by proxy behaviors because it is not that right it is not someone suffering from delusions or dissociating or, you know, doing something where it's like genuinely like, oh, that's a mental health issue.

And that woman needs help and support.

And especially given that those dissociative episodes appear to be tied to the abuse she was suffering at the hands of her very scary sounding ex-husband, you know, who is threatening her, who's stalking her.

And like, that is something that happens.

I mean, we talk about disassociation on the dissociation on the show from time to time because it comes up a lot for survivors, right?

That is a very like well-known response to extreme trauma.

So I think you just, she's so sympathetic and it's just horrible to think about her coming for help and then ending up finding Elizabeth slash Joe.

And I thought it was interesting, Joe does not during this time bring up her alleged cancer

to the patients, her fellow patients there.

Right.

And that's striking too.

It's it's interesting.

It's come up in these cases before, like where Maya Kolski went to the one doctor and talked about everything except the fact that she'd just gotten back from Mexico, was put in a coma with a 50% chance of death, like didn't even mention that as part of the history.

And it was almost like it depends which version of the story they're telling.

But that's very, it's like the people kind of found out after the fact, people that were in the therapy with her, like, wait, what?

She was also a cancer.

Like they didn't, it didn't even,

and you would think in the course of therapy, group therapy, talking about your story and PTSD from one thing or another that it would have, it would have come up.

Um, and people that were there who came out, who again, I give credit to them for coming out and speaking out, but said that she

actually didn't talk that much, which is interesting, but she very much listened and she very much asked questions.

And so,

is that a person who cares and who just who wants to be there for someone and listen to their story?

Or is it someone who's getting fodder for their future endeavors?

Material, yeah.

And I think, like, um, that is an interesting piece of it, too, because I think a lot about the way that these

that, you know, people who engage in these behaviors mirror, like mirror people who are really empathetic, right?

That they seem like very caring

and that they are like seem like, oh, well, that person really is such a good listener or whatever, but like, it's always opportunistic, right?

It's always as a means to like, how can I like, what's interesting about this that I can kind of pick, pick for myself.

Okay, so we will wrap up part one here at the end of our first episode, and we will be back

with more.

So again, let us know.

uh your thoughts on this story let us know if you want us to do a deeper dive on pieces of it i i do think this is a really interesting one.

So, um, thank you so much for being here, Bex.

Thank you.