Bonus: The Making Of

True Story Media.

I'm Tina Noll, founder of Large Media and producer of Nobody Should Believe Me.

I'm Andrea Dunlop, host and executive producer of Nobody Should Believe Me.

I'm Corrine Kiltow, producer and editor at Large Media, and I'm moderating this episode today.

These are harrowing times in America, especially for our friends and neighbors in immigrant communities.

So if you're looking for resources or ways to help, we wanted to let you know about a wonderful organization that we're partnering with this month.

The National Immigrant Justice Center has worked for more than 40 years to defend the rights of immigrants.

NIJC blends direct legal services, impact litigation, and policy advocacy to fight for due process for all and to hold the U.S.

government accountable to uphold human rights.

NIGC's experienced legal staff collaborate with a broad network of volunteer lawyers to provide legal counsel to more than 11,000 people each year, including people seeking asylum, people in ICE detention, LGBTQ immigrants, victims of human trafficking, unaccompanied immigrant children, and community members who are applying for citizenship and permanent residence.

NIJC continues to fight and win federal court cases that hold the U.S.

government accountable to follow U.S.

law and the Constitution.

In recent months, NIJC's litigation has challenged ICE's unlawful practice of arresting people without warrants and has successfully blocked President Trump's proclamation to shut down access to asylum at the border.

As ICE continues to abduct people from our communities and the U.S.

government deports thousands of people without a chance to have a judge consider their cases, it is more important than ever that we come together to defend due process.

All people in the United States have rights, regardless of immigration status.

You can donate and learn more about NIJC's work by visiting immigrantjustice.org.

That's immigrantjustice.org.

You can find that link and more information at our website.

This ad was provided pro bono.

Hey, it's Andrea.

It's come to my attention that some of you have been served programmatic ads for ICE on my show.

Now, podcasters don't get a lot of control over which individual ads play and for whom on our shows, but please know that we are trying everything we can to get rid of these by tightening our filters.

And if you do continue to hear them, please do let us know.

In the meantime, I want it to be known that I do not support ICE.

I am the daughter of an immigrant.

I stand with immigrants.

Immigrants make this country great.

How did the idea of making this a podcast come about?

Since my novel, We Came Here to Forget, came out in 2019, I had been speaking more publicly about the issue of Munchausen by Proxy and talking about my sort of personal connection to it.

And

as a part of that work, I got in touch with this amazing group of people that is the Munchausen by Proxy Committee that's part of APSAC, which is the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children, which is a big umbrella organization, all interdisciplinary

folks that work with kids.

Just

hearing all of these stories from about other cases and really understanding that this was a much bigger issue than just something that sort of affected a few families in this really isolated fashion, which I think is what everyone felt feels like when they're going through it.

And then also just was struck by how compelling these stories are.

And you were sitting there thinking, I'm exactly where I need to be right now.

You know,

I've been estranged from my sister for a really long time.

You know, these investigations, the sort of specter of this has hung really heavily over me.

And there have been long periods of time where I just didn't want anything to do with the issue.

And then when I wrote my novel, you know, which tackles the issue of mentas and my proxy, I thought, okay, I'm done with it.

Like, that's it.

I've written my thing and like, I'm done with it.

And then, you know, the book came out and then I was doing some press.

And I said, okay, I'll talk about it in this context because I want to raise awareness about the issue.

And I want people to know that, you know, this is like, if someone is reading, that they're not the only person to ever go through it and that kind of thing.

And then I said, and then I'm done, you know, and then so I sort of like, it was a big step in sort of getting drawn a little bit more into doing this, into having this be a bigger part of my professional life.

And I think I was feeling like, am I just a glutton for punishment to sort of be focusing on this really, you know, sad chapter of losing my relationship with my sister over the, you know, over the investigation.

And so I was feeling very mixed feelings about being there.

And then it was such a positive experience and meeting these professionals.

A lot of people that work on this as a big part of their lives.

really do so at great personal expense.

You know, it's not something where there's a lot of funding.

It's not something where there's necessarily a lot of like institutional support.

You know, people really take a lot of, take a lot of flack for being involved in these cases.

And so I think it was very inspiring to see this group of people.

And I just thought,

I think I'm supposed to be here.

It feels like I'm supposed to be here.

So why specifically a podcast?

I was working with Tina Noel on this other project with my dad, which is sort of a memoir podcast about his life.

And I was just really sort of falling in love with the audio medium and was learning so much from Tina and just thought that she would be the right partner for this kind of project, because it certainly is a huge challenge to figure out how to talk about this issue in a way that is compelling, but also responsible.

And I knew that Tina was up to the task.

So then I brought it to her.

And when you talked to Tina at Large Media, and Tina, you were instantly thinking, yes, this is a great, a great topic for a podcast, but not only just because of Detective Mike Weber and his investigation, but Andrea's close relationship to it, which I understand you did.

At first, Andrea did not want to talk about it,

but Tina, you thought, you know what?

No, we need to tie this in somehow.

When you think about what moves people, it's a story and it's a personal connection to a story.

And so many podcasts are focused on the topic.

And

there's a wise tendency, I think, to handle it academically.

And Andrea clearly had all of these great experts at her fingertips and had deep knowledge of this topic.

And so I felt like an audience is really going to connect to this if they really understand why she is compelled to do it.

And you know, Andrea is a novelist.

She is a great storyteller.

And still, she was reluctant to bring her entire family into this podcast, you know, understandably so.

And so I think we together, you know, not for nothing, we handled it gently and came together and knowing that for an audience to really understand why this person is on this quest, to really understand what is this?

Is it a disease?

Is it a crime?

Is it, you know, what is this thing that my sister was really investigated for?

How do I learn about it?

How am I going to unpack this thing?

I felt like from an audience perspective, they had to understand that heart connection that she has.

She has with her sister.

I saw it.

I mean, we had lots of tears together about how hard that was for her family to go through.

And I had met her father.

So I, you know, I've come to really care about them.

And our editor, Lisa Gray, was also like, wow, I wonder if we can weave in that story.

And there was a lot of, we were

trying to figure out how to put that together was hard.

Like, how do we weave that story?

And Andrew's like, there's this amazing case that is very tragic, but also ends in a positive light with the Hopi Barr case that her kids are saved.

That

there are some parallels here that I think that we could tie together.

And so that is when I think the podcast began to, we started, the light started to shine for both of us.

And then Andrew's like, you know, know we could go to texas and talk to these people and that also is like okay well we've got a story she's got a deep heart hearted story she was opening her mind and and story and life up privately together we were just talking so so much so i think it really kind of came together on that and chemistry between the two of you right i mean so i mean that's a lot of trust for you andrea to trust in what tina is trying to guide you into for the podcast and then of course you travel texas idaho parts of Washington.

So road tripping.

Tell me about the snacks.

I know the first thing I think about is you share Cheetos or what kind of things would you guys share, Andrew?

No, I don't want to share Tina's snacks because Tina is well known

the weirdest snacks.

And so I feel like, you know, we'll be walking along in Texas and she's like, okay, just try this vegan beef jerky.

I swear to God, it's good.

And I, listener, it's so disgusting.

Like, I think that Vegemite is the only thing I've tasted that's more disgusting.

But yeah, so she'll just be like over there with her, with her kelp snacks.

We both do enjoy a Starbucks Impossible breakfast sandwich.

That is where our crossover

comes to Starbucks.

But yeah, it's very funny going on the road with Tina to Texas in particular because, you know, people like, they like their meat in Fort Worth, Texas.

And so we've, I've watched her eat some sad potatoes at some barbecue places.

Very nice.

Yeah, but I, you know, we travel together.

We really had a great time traveling together.

It was not, I mean, these were like emotionally

exhausting.

Yes, days.

I mean, having to, Andrea had to sit and hear these stories.

I mean, we both had to sit and hear these stories, but she had to be like so present and doing these interviews and recording for hours during the day.

And at the end of the day, we had to come together and like pal around, you know?

Like, oh, gosh, we just, you know, had this common experience.

Plus, I mean, generally, like you, obviously.

Yeah.

Yeah, we have a great relationship.

But yeah, it was arduous, long recording days and

sifting through these stories was a lot.

Yeah.

Man, it was heavy.

You know, I, going into this, had no experience as an interviewer.

So I really was, I think Tina really helped me build my confidence on the fly.

And

I, you know, really.

It's such a together thing, I will say, though.

Like, that is totally like, you can give direction, somebody can take it.

But like, you know, there's plenty of people that can't take the direction the the way that you can and absorb it and like

quick study.

And so together, you used this term a long time ago, we really mind-melded on things where I could start to hear how she might ask a question or I could understand what she was getting at, you know, so we really got this really like a great team.

All the same.

Like, you know, it wasn't just like me coaching you into being a good interview.

Like together, we did that, I feel.

Yeah.

Well, and I think you also taught me about like when to sort of let something

land and let something breathe.

I think I do have, because I am a talker, I do have sometimes that tendency to, especially when someone's talking about something really hard, like I'll jump in there and like, oh, this is what you mean, or like trying to like help someone along.

And like, that's like the worst thing you can do when you're interviewing someone for an audio medium.

Yeah, I think those trips were really incredible.

And I just remember really specifically, I think it was after we interviewed George Honeycutt, which was one of our last interviews in Texas.

And I just remember being in the lobby of the hotel and just looking at Tina and being like, oh, no, this is not just just like a hobby project.

Like we really have something here.

And we were, I mean, I was just also really blown away by how willing people were to talk to me, you know, when heading into it, I was like, I didn't have necessarily, I had connections with the experts, right?

So I knew Mark and Mary and, you know, Mike Weber would, would, would talk to us and that we could get to some of these other sort of expert professional people who are.

to be frank, desperate for people to understand this issue better.

But in terms of, you know, Hope's family and her ex-husband and some of these other people, I had no idea whether or not they'd want to talk to me or if they'd just be like, who is this person?

Or how they would be.

I mean, there's also like, there's, you know, this sort of magical thing that can happen when you're in an interview where you're holding space for it.

And I think that we did that.

Like we kept holding the space to let them talk.

But I will also say these people, I don't know if it was luck or what, but the Putcher family, they are great people.

And you don't know going into it how they're going to be, what their personality is going to be like.

These were wonderful humans with open hearts and kindness and they're funny and they're interesting folks, you know?

And it's a hard subject.

very hard subject for them.

And the fact that they were willing to talk about it, right?

I mean, you gave them a voice.

We all cried together on all, every one of those family members we cried with.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean, and it really,

you know, it meant, it meant a lot to me that those people were willing to trust me because,

you know, the coverage of this,

these cases can go so bad.

And I just think I really wanted to do right by everyone that we talked to.

And we were really, really deliberate on what questions we asked and sort of what we included and what we left out.

And it was really an incredible experience, especially, I think, that

first trip, just because everyone who's been through an investigation or been through, you know, a situation in their family where there were suspicions or where there was a charge or any sort of thing on the spectrum really feels like they're the only person that ever went through it ever in their life and it wasn't until I sat down with a Robin butcher I had ever spoken to someone who'd had a personal experience of having a family member investigated and

That was extremely powerful.

And honestly, that interview,

when I left that interview i was pretty overwhelmed and i just thought i remember kind of driving home from tina's house and just thinking i don't know if i can do this you know like i don't know if i can if i can sit through hours and hours and hours of this and then i woke up the next day and i felt really good and i thought nope like this is this feels like what i'm supposed to do and it's hard to talk about these things but it's also you know i think these conversations were very cathartic they were cathartic for me i think in in most cases at least this is what it seemed like, and this was the feedback we had.

It was cathartic for whoever we were talking to.

And we've kept in touch with everybody from the podcast for the most part.

And

that's become its own sort of little community.

One of the things that I really is a deep value of mine, because I come into this not as a podcaster, but already as a storyteller because I'm an author.

That's my main gig.

I really believe in the power of stories to make people feel less alone.

And I think that that's one of the best things that you can ever do as a storyteller, whether you're doing it through fiction or through nonfiction.

And I think like that was what we were seeing.

And we were sort of seeing that relief that comes with, oh my gosh, I'm telling you this experience and I don't have to explain it to you.

Right.

You understand what I'm saying.

And I don't, you're not like, I think what everyone had been through is these stories are so shocking that what people are used to is being met with a certain amount of disbelief and, you know, wrong-headed questions.

And even if they're well-meant, of just like, what happened?

You know, and that sort of like you watch the blood drain from someone's face.

And then that isn't a very healing experience for the person who's trying to tell that story that happened to them if just you're then dealing with the listener's shock, right?

And so I think what we could do also was sort of like,

no one here is going to be shocked.

And like, we're presenting this as part of a pattern and we're presenting this as like a, not just like the, oh my God, how many surgeries and that kind of.

And as you, so you developed some great relationships with the butchers.

At what point did you realize you were actually going to get to talk to Hope?

And what did that feel like?

Oh, my God.

That was quite a roller coaster ride.

I mean, that was many months of back and forth.

You're always as a pretty short trying to figure out how you're going to end it.

How are you going to end this thing?

Like, where are we going on this journey, right?

So, if we didn't interview Hope, there was this one path I'm thinking.

And if we get Hope, there's this other path that I'm thinking.

And the whole time, you're like, well, all these episodes are starting to come together.

The story's starting to come together.

We're having to take all the tape from

Texas that we were recording and start to process that tape and start to build the story around what's going on.

And here, Andrea is diligently working to

land an interview with Hope.

That was really fascinating and that was definitely the hardest part of season one like by by a long long shot right because you know by and large everyone that we reached out to said yes and then a couple people like never got back to us and so we're like all right well that person's gonna talk and that's fine and with hope you know i had gotten her number from

one of her family members and reached out to her, you know, right in the beginning.

And

she

was nice enough about it and sort of said no,

and then I kind of let it be.

And just, and I think there was some part of me when she said no, that I was relieved because I was like, I don't, this is very fraught.

Like, I don't know.

And I just sort of thought, like, also, you know, I think part of it was when I started, I didn't have as much confidence as an interviewer.

So I was like, what if I just get manipulated by this person and they get to say all the things they want to say?

And I just, I just think I was, and I was also like, you know,

have reason to be fearful of

hope.

She

has done some very extreme things.

So it's not, you know, like I don't want to sort of overplay that, but like, you know,

except give Mike Weber to ask

her.

Don't be alone with her.

Let's be honest.

Yeah, he did say, he said, and I sort of laughed that off because, you know, here she is this sort of diminutive looking person, but he's like, no, I'm serious.

Don't be in the room alone with her.

You know, I let it go at first.

And then

the further we got into recording and that was, you know, first reached out to her.

That was when I was first reaching out to everybody.

So I'd first reached out to, you know, Fabian.

And I hadn't done many of these interviews yet when I first reached out to Hope.

And she said, no, and I was kind of like, fine, whatever.

Like, I don't know how that was going to go.

So it's fine.

We'll say we reached out to you.

You didn't want to talk.

So fine.

And then the more that like, I so got into talking and having these really deep conversations with her siblings and her dad and her ex-husband.

I just thought we're making this whole pod.

I mean, obviously the whole podcast is not about Hope.

We take a lot of sort of other, other tracks in the podcast, but she is a huge part of the podcast.

And I sort of felt really uncomfortable of like, I'm making this podcast about someone and their voice isn't included.

And I would feel like the project had sort of a greater level of integrity if we could include them.

And also just that I thought Hope was going to be more open than anybody else we could find to give us that perspective.

And I think because my number one goal with this podcast was really to put a human face on all of this.

And I think it's very easy for us with

people who have committed particularly shocking, heinous crimes.

It's very easy for us to just make them a monster, lock them away, throw away the key.

Let's just completely dehumanize this person, right?

They're a criminal.

They're a monster.

They're, you know, not

a person that I would recognize.

And that's just not true.

And so, and I knew that wasn't true.

And especially because we were fleshing out this person that Hope had been in her life before she committed these crimes,

where she was this really beloved family member and, you know, person in her community and she was smart and she was all these things.

Right.

And it's, it, I wanted people to understand that Hope was a person too.

And the best way to do that would be to get her voice in there.

And I also thought like, you know, she had done some interviews.

So A, I thought, you know, there was a chance she would probably be open to it if I was persistent.

And also, I really felt like

I wanted to convince her.

I thought, I was like, I think you should talk to me.

I was like, I think that I'm going to ask you questions that other interviewers are not.

You know, the other interviews with her, the one Deanna Boyd from Fort Worth Star Telegram did with her was excellent.

Deanna is an excellent reporter, but she's not coming from it at the same perspective that I did.

And I was like, I'm not going to ask you about your crime.

Like, because, namely, because trying to get an honest depiction out of hope of like what she did would be a fool's errand, right?

We know she's not going to tell, she's never been fully accountable for her crimes.

And I knew that, you know, I knew she said she didn't remember, she had a diabetic coma, et cetera.

So I knew that it wasn't going to be as though she was going to like walk us through it from A to B.

Here's why I did what I did.

And, you know, and that wasn't even really what I wanted to know.

I really wanted to get a sense of like

how she experienced the whole thing and what she thought now and how she felt looking back on it.

And just to get like a sense of her as a person.

And I think that maybe I was a little hopeful that

she would be open to treatment.

I made that offer to her when we were talking.

I said, listen, like I'm, you know.

No brag, but like, I know all the best people in the world on this topic.

I mean, that's really true.

Like, that's because I'm on this committee.

And, you know, if you want help, help, like if you are a person that is open to treatment for this, then like, I will help you do that.

I will make those connections.

I will talk to you.

I will, you know,

and she said at the time she was open to it.

I haven't heard from her since.

So who knows?

Offer still stands.

You know, not that the butchers asked me to do this or that they need me to do this or that I have any.

place to do this but like if there's anything about that conversation that could help them close the loop or if there was anything about that conversation that could be illuminating for her children if they ever want to listen and certainly, like, there's, you know, they may not, but like, I sort of just thought, like, if there's anything, if there's any insight that I can get out of her, like, I really want.

So, I just kind of persisted and I reached back out to her and I said, you know, I know you said no, but you know, here's all the reasons I think you should talk to me.

I'm really like, my intentions are good here.

Like, I'm not trying to like make you look bad.

And I, you know, want to,

like, I really,

I, I think this conversation could be good for you too.

Like, I, you know, and

so we got in this back and forth where she said yes, and then she said no, and then she said she was going to talk to her lawyer.

And then I don't think that there was necessarily a lawyer.

I just want to interject because this was over days and weeks of this.

Yeah, yeah, this was a long

time.

This was months.

This was months and back and forth.

No, this was months and back and forth.

Long

back and forth.

It was July of 2021.

And so we had done, it was like the last interview that we were trying to get.

And

she said

yes.

And we booked our trip and we got plane tickets and we got a hotel.

And then she said no

and said, I've reconsidered.

And she kept saying, you know, oh, I don't want to hurt my family.

And I told her, I said, like, I don't think that's going to hurt your family.

Like, I have been talking to your family a lot.

They're wonderful.

Like, I don't think that anything that you say now is going to.

Was she surprised that you were talking to her family?

I don't know.

probably honestly i mean and i think that that probably also maybe was a factor i i don't know it's hard to it's very hard to guess what is going on truly in in hope's mind but yeah you know i i told her like i don't think you know and i sort of

i said okay so at that point she said you know

i don't think i want to do the interview and then i said

well listen like i'm coming let's just have lunch i think it would be really good for us to talk like regardless if you don't want to do the interview don't do the interview interview.

And so at that point, we're like, at least we could have Andrea talk about it later.

You know, we had this conversation and we met with her and, and, and say, like, you, you know, you don't, but like, I really just, I want to meet, like, it's really become important to me to have this conversation.

And that was, you know, like, was I trying to get her to agree to the interview?

Yes.

Was I also, did I mean it?

Yes.

If, if sitting down with her and having a face-to-face lunch off the, off record was, was what was going to happen, then I was willing to fly to Idaho for that too.

This was going to be like sort of

my one chance to kind of like ask someone these questions.

So I really like, I was exactly as invested as I was portraying myself in just like having the conversation, whether I could record it or not.

It's officially fall and the world has officially gone completely bananas.

So I am looking for comfort and coziness wherever I can find it.

In Seattle this time of year, getting dressed is all about cozy layers.

The weather in October is like, it's warm, it's cold, it's going to rain.

Is it going to rain?

It's raining.

So I've been stocking up on comfy layers from my favorite brand, Quince.

Now, Quince is known for their sweaters, especially their Mongolian cashmere, but they have all hits, no misses when it comes to layers, from their super soft cotton tees to their fashionable and functional outerwear.

I just ordered the Responsible Down Puffer Jacket, which comes in 13 different colors, and bonus is made ethically to ensure best practices in animal welfare, hence the responsible part.

And in fact, one of the things that I love about Quince is that they partner exclusively with top-tier ethical factories, cutting out the middleman to deliver luxury pieces at half the price of similar brands, so you can feel good about shopping with them.

And I can assure you, given that at least half of my wardrobe is now from Quince, the quality really is top-tier.

This stuff is made to last.

So find your fall staples at Quince.

Go to quince.com/slash believe for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

Now available in Canada too.

That's q-u-in-ce.com/slash slash believe to get free shipping and 365-day returns.

Quits.com slash believe.

And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show.

My daughter Fiona just turned seven this month.

It is true what they say.

It just goes by in a blink.

But she is getting to be a grown-up girl.

I am so proud of her.

And she is learning grown-up things and getting some big kid responsibilities.

Right now, we are earning our way to getting a pet gecko.

And Project Gecko, as we're calling it in my house, is being powered by our sponsor, Acorns Early.

Acorns Early is the smart debit card and money app that grows kids' money skills as they grow up.

It comes with an in-app chores tracker that helps kids connect their responsibilities with the value of a dollar.

It also lets kids set their own savings goal for a gecko or anything else they want.

And kids can spend what they earned with their very own customizable debit card, giving them that extra sense of independence.

Plus, with Acorn Early spending limits and real-time spend notifications, parents always stay stay in control.

So if you want a fun way to teach your kids about money and keeping small lizards alive, you should give it a try.

Ready to teach your kids the smart way to earn, save, and spend?

Get your first month on us when you head to acornsearly.com backslash nobody or download the Acorns Early app.

That's one month free when you sign up at acornsearly.com backslash nobody.

And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show.

Acorns Early Card is issued by Community Federal Savings Bank, member FDIC, pursuant pursuant to license by MasterCard International.

Free trial for new subscribers only, subscription fees starting from $5 per month unless cancelled.

Terms apply at www.acorns.com backslash early terms.

There are people in this life who can accomplish grown-up responsible tasks like buying life insurance without a lot of reminding and prompting.

My husband is one of those people.

I am not.

If you're like me, you dread doing things like buying life insurance because you think it's going to be expensive and complicated and you're going to have to do paperwork and make other appointments and it's just going to take forever.

Well guess what?

I am here to remind you that it will actually be none of those things with our sponsor, SelectQuote.

It will in fact be fast, easy, and less expensive than you think.

SelectQuote has been one of the most trusted companies in the game for over 40 years.

And unlike other one-size-fits-all life insurance companies, SelectQuote's licensed agents work for you.

In as little as 15 minutes, they'll compare policies from top-rated carriers to find you the best fit for your health and your budget.

And they work for you for free.

And you won't even need a medical exam, as SelectQuote partners with providers offering same-day coverage of up to $2 million without even needing to visit your doctor.

And if you do have pre-existing conditions, don't worry, they also have partners with coverage designed for that as well.

Whatever the case, they'll get you the coverage you deserve for the best price.

Head to selectquote.com and a licensed insurance agent will call you right away with the right policy for your life and your budget.

Get the right life insurance for you for less less and save more than 50% at selectquote.com slash nobody.

Save more than 50% on term life insurance at selectquote.com slash nobody today to get started.

That's selectquote.com slash nobody.

And remember that shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show.

Well, and I was blown away when I found out that you got hope.

I mean, when I saw that come up, I thought, what the?

I could not wait to listen to that.

And it was very captivating to hear what she had to talk about.

But Tina, I know know that you there was a moment in the car where tina caught audio of andrea you being very raw from the whole experience that was on after talking to hope i always would record andrea in the car and stuff because we just get in these conversations that are really great so i just hit record and a lot of times she didn't know sometimes she knew but

you're such a creep

super creepy

producer she would be sleeping and i would be like

she's snoring i should probably get this

no like you know so i would often record our conversations because they were compelling and sometimes there's insightful things that can happen.

I mean, I remember when we got there and it was like emotional for both of us because we're like, A, she could not show up.

And B, this is a very intense moment for Andrea's life, really, when you think about it.

Like this crime disease, all of the things that Munchausen by proxy is, this horrible act, has affected her life.

And so this is a really scary

and important opportunity for her to have.

So there's just a lot of charged emotion in there

when we were on our way and after the conversation.

I will tell you that conversation

was

very strange for me.

Andrea did a great job of holding the space for hope and really just staying with it.

She was brave and I was snowed in moments.

I was like, I think she's going to get hope.

I really was.

I was pretty naive about it.

I thought, oh, maybe this will, you know, maybe she'll get better or whatever.

Accept the help that Andrea was.

That Andrea was extending.

Yeah.

I mean, she showed up pretending that she couldn't hear us.

And there's a moment in the episode you will hear that I play tape for her.

And she can hear that tape very clearly.

But that interview is an important one, I think, for everybody.

And I think that what happens, this has always been on my mind when like true crime or movies and things like that.

The crime happens, the perpetrator's caught, they're in jail, story's over.

And I'm always like, wait, what happened next?

What were they like in prison?

What was their life?

Who are they now when they're out?

Yeah.

And I don't, I mean, I would, I would argue, Tina, that you were not snowed exactly.

I think

that was maybe your first experience with someone like Hope.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That was not my first experience with someone like Hope.

Great point.

You're totally right.

Yeah.

And

I also think that we can hold space for a lot of what Hope

said

to be true in a sense.

And I think that even, you know, when she had that reaction to me saying, you know, if you want to get help, et cetera, in that moment.

Later that day, the next morning, she might have still felt that way.

She might still just be in the middle.

I mean, you know,

we can't guess it at what really is going on with her.

And I think it's worth remembering what Dr.

Mary Sanders has told us about folks with this behavior pattern is that there's a tremendous, like crushing amount of shame that goes along with it.

And so I think like,

you know,

we can

hope did some really terrible things.

That's not.

under dispute.

And I think that like whether or not

people want to, the people who were in her life before want to have any kind of continuing relationship with her.

That's very, very tricky.

It's very tricky for people to figure out how to have a relationship with a perpetrator.

I mean, then that goes for everyone that I've talked to, survivors.

I mean, that's something they really struggle with.

Like, can I have a relationship with my mother at all?

Like, can I talk to her once a year?

Can I never, you know, like, what are the parameters that are going to, like, I'm going to be able to be healthy and have a relationship with this person?

So that is just like extremely, extremely tricky.

But I think for us as listeners, and just in sort of a greater context, and you know, in terms of the professionals who look at is treatment possible,

you can still have empathy for her.

She is a human being.

And that was one of the things that she said: is like, I want people to know that I'm a human being.

And that's totally valid.

You know, I think, like, and I think that there's a level on which we can say

that

someone like Hope is in a tremendous amount of pain to do these really destructive things.

But then at the same time, you know, like

accountability is king in this.

And so if,

you know, if they're not willing to be fully accountable, but I mean, I don't think like Tina, I think the reaction that Tina just had talking about herself in that conversation is the reaction that like a lot of people have where they're like, well, how could you just be fooled by this person?

And it's like, because

they're very compelling.

And like even me, I mean, like, one of the things I felt very self-conscious about that episode because it sounds like I changed my mind about her so quickly because, and I listening back to it myself I mean this was totally fascinating for me to listen back to the conversation with her but also because Tina you know is a creep and records me all the time like to listen to like what I was saying to Tina yeah I mean really it was such a gift like to to be to listen to like me talking about it before I go in and talking about it after because you just don't normally get to hear yourself processing things and it was really interesting for me to like listen to like my genuine like raw you know because of course I felt differently about it three days later and a week later and like but in the moment especially right after,

you know, I,

you know, it sounds like I changed my mind about her so quickly because when I'm in the room with her, we are having what is, you know, it was like a very sort of warm conversation.

Yeah.

You know, and like, because I was really trying hard to compartmentalize what I knew about her and just like give us the space to be like two women having a conversation.

And I think that that, and that was, that was how I was approaching it.

I mean, that was genuine and like my openness to hope was genuine.

and then I think once I walked away

some of those things that that she said some some the smoke sort of started to clear I mean she is like she's an appealing warm person in real life you know she's she

it's kind of uncanny I mean I I don't quite know how to like she does she seems like the least threatening person you ever saw in your life and and I will say that it's I think it's human nature to want somebody to be redeemed or to be better.

Redeemable.

Redeemable, yeah.

And be better.

And so when you're sitting in front of somebody that you know has done very, very, very, very diabolical things to helpless beings, it's really splitting your own mind to

have the understanding that they also spent 10 years in prison.

So in my mind, I was like, she did her 10 years.

She must have gotten stupidly rehabilitated or something in prison, you know, as if our prison system does that, but that's neither here nor there.

But, you know, I think that it is human nature to want them to be good.

And so it's a mind split.

Especially if someone is able to, and I think this gets to like why

these cases are so tricky, especially when someone presents

like a good person.

The reality is, if you're sitting across from

a creepy looking guy with neck tattoos or nothing against the neck tattoo community, like, you know, like whoever it is that we sort of conceptualize as a criminal, you know, you're sort of like law and order central casting criminal,

then you're going to be able to kind of hold that in your mind better.

But the reality is, Hope looks like the mom on the block.

I mean, she really does.

She looked like that then.

She looks like that now.

She's soft spoken.

She comes across warm.

She was in tears almost the minute she sat down.

You know, there is that, that, what made her so compelling then is what makes her so compelling now.

And so I think, like, being able to then recognize that someone can come off this way and still be capable of truly the most monstrous things you can possibly imagine.

Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a workout for your brain.

It really is.

Yeah.

And for you both to experience that together, at least you had each other

to debrief.

Yes, thank God.

So you mentioned earlier you're still in contact with a lot of people from the season and you've built a big community actually much bigger than what you thought because you started a support group so we have munchhausen support which is an online resource site that i started with dr mark feldman and is also a 501c3 so right now one of the big things that we're building out is survivor support groups and sir and support groups for family members so we have a couple that are survivors and a couple that are for dads.

That's something I started with my committee colleagues that has sort of gone along with this podcast.

And yeah, we're just, you know, that community is growing.

And it's one of the other things, other than hearing this unanimously from experts, that's another thing, just anecdotally, that has made me feel pretty certain that this abuse is not as rare as it's portrayed because

I just keep hearing from too many people that it's happened to them.

So, season two, is there going to be a season two?

Oh, I hope so.

We recorded some audio from season two and we went to Tarrant County again.

And the story is

very compelling.

It's also

oddly lovely.

There is some really sweet things about the story that I really hope that we get to tell.

And

some of the characters that you met in season one will be in season two, but it's a brand new story with a brand new set of characters.

The story that we're talking about in season two is the Britney Phillips case.

And it's one that when I heard it, completely disabused me of a whole bunch of notions that I had about what this crime looked like and what perpetrators were like.

You know, we're excited to sort of debunk some of even, you know, my assumptions that I went into.

And I think there's just, there's a lot of really good and interesting people around this case, you know, Sheriff Weyburn and his wife being two of our main characters.

And I think I really also, you know, we're looking to sort of shift the focus to talking about survivors.

And I think that that's something that has gotten completely lost in the coverage of these cases.

You know, unfortunately, a lot of the media coverage of these cases involves cases where the child dies.

And

we don't talk about any cases where the child dies.

Even in the cases that we talk about that did not go right,

the interventions of the professionals who tried to help, we very strongly believe that that slowed that abuse pattern down and maybe got enough eyes on that child so that they survived.

So, and then, you know, we are obviously talking about also some cases where there were criminal charges.

So I think, you know, we really want to shift that conversation to, yeah, how does life go on after these cases?

What I've come to in looking at, you know, again, like I always say, I'm like, okay, I'm just going to do this and then I'm done.

And so we made the first season and then I'm like, okay, that's just a limited series and we're done.

And then I was like, no, actually, there's so much more to say.

And I think they're just,

it is, it's a fascinating topic.

There's a lot of things to explore.

It's really underexplored.

And the stories are so compelling.

And I had not met any survivors until I did the first season of this podcast.

And now I've met a bunch.

And I'm so inspired by them because this is a type of abuse.

And every survivor that I've talked to was not separated from their abuser.

So they were raised by that person until they were 18 and left home.

And so it's the kind of thing where I think people can sometimes look at these cases and just think like, oh, if that person is not separated from their abuser, like that abuse is so severe that like that person's going to be so messed up that they're sort of like

maybe even an inclination to sort of give up on that person and just think like, oh, well, that person's going to have so many challenges.

And of course, like, yeah, anybody who grows up with, you know, in a really abusive situation is going to have some challenges, but watching.

some of these survivors that I've talked to just be determined to sort of turn their lives around and turn their stories around is so incredible and it's so hopeful.

And that's what I really want is to give people some hope about this issue to just say like, you know, that it's not even if the system fails, which honestly, I'm pretty convinced it's going to in most cases, especially the ones that don't happen to involve Mike Weber,

that there's not, you know, that we don't just sort of

give up on the person who's at the center of it.

Start the season with Etsy and make your holiday traditions extra special.

On Etsy, you'll discover original pieces from small shops that will help you celebrate your way.

Shop Etsy for holiday decor that makes you feel seen.

Special starts on Etsy.

Tap the banner to shop now.