Catching Up with Mishelle and Aunt Sabrina

Speaker 1 True Story Media.

Speaker 1 Hello, it's Andrea, and today we are bringing you something really special as we close out the year here at Nobody Should Believe Me.

Speaker 1 And that is a check-in with Michelle and her aunt Sabrina from season six.

Speaker 1 And boy, do we have a lot to unpack with them about what's been going on since the season aired last summer, which was five minutes ago, and also 100 years.

Speaker 1 But before we get into all that, I just wanted to say thank you for all of your support this year. I cannot tell you how much it means to me.
2025 was a big year for the show.

Speaker 1 We put out two full seasons. I think they were our best work yet, and you all seem to agree, so thank you.
And we also put a new episode on the air every week.

Speaker 1 It was a lot, and I'm endlessly grateful to my team for all of their amazing work this year.

Speaker 1 That's Mariah, Greta, Nola, Aaron, and Robin, as well as Taj and Nicole, who worked with us on the main seasons, and of course, Dr. Becks, who does most of my Patreon episodes with me.

Speaker 1 I'm so lucky to have collaborators who not only help with the massive undertaking of keeping this show going, but are also fantastic to work with and really understand and support the mission of this show.

Speaker 1 Now, I'm assuming that most of you don't know much about the vagaries of the podcasting industry, so you may not realize what an absolute miracle it is to be able to make a show as ambitious as nobody should believe me independently.

Speaker 1 Podcasting, like most industries in 2025, is very volatile.

Speaker 1 And the fact that you keep tuning in, that you take time to rate and review the show and share it with friends, that you join our paid subscriber feeds, that's what makes this all possible.

Speaker 1 The fact that we're not beholden to a corporate media company is exactly why we're able to tell the stories the way that we tell them.

Speaker 1 Those of you who've been around for a while will know that I tried working with a big media company and it didn't go so well. Yet here we are, three years later humming along because of you.

Speaker 1 I know that 2025 has been a really tough year for a lot of us and I know that the stories that we tell in this show aren't exactly comfort lessons.

Speaker 1 But I am comforted by the community that's coalesced around this show, by the acts of bravery large and small that I witnessed in my reporting, and by the fact that there are so many people who really, really want to make a better world for kids.

Speaker 1 Thank you for being one of those people. I'm wishing you all a calm and restorative holiday season.
Remember, the battle is important, but so are you.

Speaker 1 We will be right back with our conversation with two very brave and lovely women, Michelle and Sabrina. And as for me, I'll see you in 2026.

Speaker 1 I love audiobooks for the same reason I love podcasts. They can go everywhere with me, the car, the garden, on a walk.

Speaker 1 And with the mother next door, I got to bring all my worlds together as I narrate one of my own books for the very first time. You can find the mother next door wherever you get audiobooks.

Speaker 1 Here's a snippet. When the nurse who was administering the test briefly left the room, Hope turned to Amy and asked if she could take her daughter to the bathroom so that Sophia could have a meltdown.

Speaker 1 It was bizarre. Amy explained to Hope that she could not allow her to be alone with Sophia.

Speaker 1 A short time later, the results of the sweat test came back. Negative.

Speaker 1 Sophia didn't have cystic fibrosis. For almost any parent in the world, the news that their child didn't have a terminal illness would have brought tears of relief.

Speaker 1 But upon hearing the test results, Hope broke down in tears for a very different reason. She'd been caught.

Speaker 1 Hey, it's Andrea. It's come to my attention that some of you have been served programmatic ads for ICE on my show.

Speaker 1 Now, podcasters don't get a lot of control over which individual ads play and for whom on our shows, but please know that we are trying everything we can to get rid of these by tightening our filters.

Speaker 1 And if you do continue to hear them, please do let us know. In the meantime, I want it to be known that I do not support ICE.
I am the daughter of an immigrant. I stand with immigrants.

Speaker 1 Immigrants make this country great.

Speaker 1 So nice to see both of you,

Speaker 1 Michelle and Sabrina. I think you're just officially Aunt Sabrina now on the show and in life.
That's aunt. You're everybody's aunt.
That's what a couple of our listeners said.

Speaker 1 So first of all,

Speaker 2 how are y'all doing?

Speaker 1 There I did my y'all,

Speaker 1 just for you.

Speaker 1 So Michelle, we have had a couple of follow-up conversations with you, but Sabrina, we have not talked to you since we were with you last May in Georgia. And so.

Speaker 1 Let's start with you and just how are you doing? And how has this been for you to have this out in the world?

Speaker 3 Well, it's been, it's been different because

Speaker 3 a lot of people here locally knew kind of knew the situation or they thought they knew the situation.

Speaker 3 They were shocked when they started listening to the podcast.

Speaker 3 And I get, I mean, like,

Speaker 3 and everybody's had hundreds of questions for me, but

Speaker 3 it's like, I just, I didn't know. I didn't realize.
That's what I get a lot of.

Speaker 3 so there's been a lot of that kind of contact like i didn't realize i have had people reach out to me saying you know they remember things incidents from school and stuff but a lot of people are just for lack of better words shell-shocked around here um just just listening to it because people that remembered really didn't know how deep it was

Speaker 1 Yeah, and I imagine that's obviously, as we talked about, you know, Hazelhurst is a small town. And I mean, how

Speaker 1 has it been? Is it like, are you seeing people in the grocery store and they're saying things? Or I mean, is it kind of a, yeah, how did it sort of hit the community there, do you think?

Speaker 3 Well,

Speaker 3 I see,

Speaker 3 I get a lot of people when I am around town that'll run up and just,

Speaker 3 I didn't know, I didn't know. the situation and then I didn't know that you and her were sisters and

Speaker 3 it's brought up a lot of mostly positive stuff. I mean, most people have been super supportive and are like, I hope y'all get justice.
I hope, you know, you get the answers you're looking for.

Speaker 3 Of course, you've had a couple of people that are going to believe what they want to regardless and are negative. But, you know, you just blow that off and,

Speaker 3 you know, just go on because that's really all you can do is. If they hear the story and they choose not to believe it, then they choose not to.

Speaker 1 So there's nothing I can can do about that either way yeah that's interesting i mean and whatever you feel comfortable sharing but it in terms of people

Speaker 1 not believing are there some people that just i i mean i don't even know in this particular case it would be interesting to think about sort of what not believing even looks like given sort of the detail that that things were laid out on in the show.

Speaker 1 And is it people that have actually listened or is it people that are just sort of reacting to the idea of it in your experience?

Speaker 3 More or less, I think it's people that haven't actually taken the time to listen to the whole podcast and they're just reacting to the nobody could really do that kind of thing or i knew her i knew your family or things like that but

Speaker 3 you know i'm like please go listen you know just please just listen to the whole thing and if you still don't believe it that's fine that's your opinion But like I'm like I tell people, this wasn't a podcast that was put together overnight.

Speaker 3 There was a lot of research that went into it, like months and months and months and months of research. And there's evidence to back up what we've said and the things that have been talked about.

Speaker 3 It's not just that we randomly came on here and made up a pile of stories. And that's what I tell them.
And I've had a couple come back and said, wow, you know,

Speaker 3 I can't, I just, that, that's unimaginable. And it's kind of changed their opinions when they've actually went and listened to the podcast in its entirety.

Speaker 1 But there are a couple that just, oh, I just don't believe it so it is what it is for them i guess but yeah no that makes sense and and how has that felt to have all that just public i mean what like what's that you kind of talked about people's reactions and how has it felt to just sort of have this out in the world for you has it been a relief or has it felt really like exposed or what what's kind of been your experience of it you know it's um

Speaker 3 it it's a mixture it has been relief,

Speaker 3 like just to get it out there, people know and you don't have to kind of not talk about it. You've talked about it at this point.
And, but then there is this,

Speaker 3 man, I hope nobody sees me up town and asks me about that today because today's not a good day for that. You know,

Speaker 3 some days it just really hits you a lot harder. than other days.
And so some days I can talk about it and do really well talking about it. And some days I'm a basket case when I talk about it.

Speaker 3 So and it's a real conditional on how people approach me with it, I think, as to how my response is with it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And that's just a good

Speaker 1 reminder for everyone listening and for all of us on this call that just because you know about a terrible thing that someone has been through and they chose to talk about it at one time does not mean that you can rush up to them and ask them questions about it at any time.

Speaker 1 You still need to check in with that person and make sure that

Speaker 1 now is an okay time to talk about that and that they're okay talking about it with you in that moment, because

Speaker 1 it is not a green light to everyone to ask questions at any time.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, well, thank you. Thank you for sharing that.

Speaker 1 And I know you have some specific thoughts on the fallout that we'll kind of get to and maybe some thoughts on the Guthy Jackson Foundation's handling of this, which we obviously talked to Michelle at length about.

Speaker 1 But before we dig into that, I just want to say hi to Michelle. And Michelle, how are you doing? You've had a lot of life changes since we even last talked to you.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 I am good. I am freezing.

Speaker 2 You know, it's been, it kind of dawned on me, which is crazy that it just dawned on me recently, but it did really dawn on me recently, just how.

Speaker 2 crazy and how much has happened in just the span of not even quite a year yet um and a lot and you know so i moved over a thousand miles away from that little town of Hazelhurst and moved away from my aunt Sabrina.

Speaker 2 And that's

Speaker 1 about that.

Speaker 2 But yeah, I, you know, it was the best move for the time, you know, for my family. But yeah, it's just been, it's been a roller coaster.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's been, and the holidays are hitting kind of hard on an emotional level. You know, the realization kind of struck me again really recently that

Speaker 2 this is the first full holiday season I'll spend completely no contact with my parents,

Speaker 2 like 100% no contact. We've been low contact on a couple of couple of different occasions around the holidays.

Speaker 2 But this is the first year I'll be like 100% like nothing. And so that's been really heavy in a way that I like didn't expect on top of moving a thousand miles away.

Speaker 2 So this is, it's just been a lot, you know, it's been a lot. But I think overall um, I'm doing really well.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, it's good to hear.
And yeah, I mean, it's, that is really heavy.

Speaker 1 And I remember like that first Christmas that, you know, since she's my older sister, there had never been a Christmas that we weren't together. And that was just,

Speaker 1 it was brutal. Like that, I remember that hit me really hard.
And yeah, even if your relationship with that person's complicated and all of that, it's still really.

Speaker 1 feels like a big deal to not have them in your life at all.

Speaker 1 And yeah, so I wanted to ask, so I know you haven't, Michelle, spoken to your mom since the podcast came out. Is that right?

Speaker 2 Not since it came out. No.
Well, I take that back. I sent her one text message because she thought it was an okay thing to text my children,

Speaker 2 which

Speaker 2 it was a short-sighted on me because I did not go and block her number off of my children's devices because honestly, it just slipped my mind because they had not had any communication in so long.

Speaker 2 And she took it upon herself to text my children, which I immediately texted her and was like, this is not appropriate. And I'm not sure what it is that made you think it was appropriate.

Speaker 2 But she read it and never responded. So that's been the only any form of communication since it's aired.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And what about you, Sabrina? Have you heard from Lisa at all?

Speaker 3 I have not had any contact with her since before the podcast came out. I don't predict she'll be in contact with me.
I was hoping maybe I would hear from Angelin, but

Speaker 3 I haven't really heard from her. Well, I hadn't heard from her at all either.
So

Speaker 1 how has that been for you?

Speaker 1 Is that hard to sort of have again, like obviously your relationship with both of them had been strained anyway, but I know that sort of putting all of this out there could really feel like a kind of final step and like a final severing.

Speaker 1 Like I think it seems to me both of you knew going in that this was probably the end of your relationship with certainly Lisa and possibly Angelin as well. So So how has that been for you?

Speaker 3 Well, I definitely knew going in

Speaker 3 that Lisa would probably never talk to me again. But saying that and knowing that and then having it really be real kind of hits different because it's like you expect her not to talk to you.

Speaker 3 And people, I think people are under the assumption that because we came out and told this story that we hate her and we wish bad for her and that's not the case she's my sister and i love her just like she's michelle's mom and michelle loves her um so you still you don't wish harm on people you don't want you know um but it just hits different that reality of okay the last time i talked to her was really probably the last time i will talk to her

Speaker 3 And Angelin kind of hits a little bit different because

Speaker 3 we were close at one time. She was close with my children at one time.
I don't think any of them have talked to her at all.

Speaker 3 So that's kind of being a different mindset for them because now she doesn't contact them because of something I did, which they understand the reason why it was done.

Speaker 3 They understand the reason why we did it. It's just a little, like I say, when you really know that that's probably the end of it.

Speaker 3 And then really realizing after all these months that it really is the end of it.

Speaker 3 But then there's a sense of peace that comes from not having to wait on that other shoe to drop with Lisa that's like very free.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, I remember really experiencing that as well when the show came out.

Speaker 1 And like then, especially when I took the step of, you know, saying her name and saying all the details I learned about the case. And like, you know, at that point, I hadn't spoken to her in

Speaker 1 seven years, seven, eight years probably.

Speaker 1 And so, but even so, it was like, once I do this, like, that's it. I remember feeling kind of like, well, like, that's irrational.

Speaker 1 Your relationship was already over, but it's like, there's different kinds of over, right?

Speaker 3 Yes. Yes.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, we're going to get into what's going on with Angelin.

Speaker 1 Um, and where in the world is Lisa McDaniel

Speaker 1 in a moment. Um, but since we had spent quite a bit of time talking to Michelle about

Speaker 1 Guthy Jackson's handling of this situation in the sort of initial days, weeks, months after the show came out and the revelations about

Speaker 1 Lisa. I just wanted to give you a chance to weigh in on that.
If there was anything that you wanted to say about the situation. Oh,

Speaker 3 there's a lot that I really could say.

Speaker 3 I'm very disappointed in the response that they gave. It was such a generic,

Speaker 3 well, we've covered it, we took care of it, it won't happen again.

Speaker 3 To me, they didn't really address the issues. And the further issue is, okay, they got rid of Lisa, but what about all those people that Lisa brought in with her?

Speaker 3 You know, it just brings a lot more. issues for me,

Speaker 3 a lot of people that probably

Speaker 3 kind of have the same mindset that Lisa does. And that's concerning for me because that community needs the research, it needs funding, it does.
And I think it hurts it.

Speaker 3 And I think it, for me, it sheds a very negative light on the foundation because they're like, okay, well, we did the bare minimum and that should be enough.

Speaker 3 And the bare minimum, I mean, you need to raise the bar so much higher than that because

Speaker 3 You're in such a position. You can do so much, so many good things with your platform.

Speaker 3 But this for me has just taunted everything about their platform. And I just, I wish their response had been stronger.

Speaker 3 And I wish they had really drawn some guidelines that said, hey, we will not do this.

Speaker 3 These are the steps we will take to make sure this kind of thing doesn't happen again to protect the people, to protect the patients we need to protect because.

Speaker 3 The patients that Lisa dealt with, they're not protecting because she has their information on her personal devices. So they're not even in the firing of Lisa, they didn't protect the patients.

Speaker 3 So I'm really, I'm really let down and discouraged by that because, like I say, they had such a platform to do good. And this has just ruined their platform for me.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, you know, I remember Michelle us talking about this and even talking about this with a colleague who was worried that they wouldn't even fire her

Speaker 1 because there is sometimes, not because of anything about Gethie Jackson, but just sort of about the way that

Speaker 1 institutions that have a reputation to protect will sometimes respond to these situations

Speaker 1 because of, you know, just like past experiences that we've all had. And so I think like, I think it's fair to say that like this was not the worst possible outcome.

Speaker 1 They didn't have the worst possible reaction, but maybe also not the best possible reaction either. And, you know, I think it's interesting, like you were sort of talking about how people,

Speaker 1 some people, you know maybe in the minority but would have this very strong reaction to the idea of lisa having done these things without sort of listening to the podcast and absorbing the details and i think like that is such a real and and human thing right where it's just like the idea of it is so awful that there's just like a really strong relux reluctance to face it and i you know i'm not going to speculate on what anyone at Guthy Jackson sort of is going through emotionally, but I think that's just something that that like is so endemic to kind of everyone confronting this abuse, right?

Speaker 1 It's just like you have to, it takes a fair amount of courage to look it in the face and just go, oh no, this really happened and this, and I was really involved and this was my sort of piece of it or part of it.

Speaker 1 Obviously, you know, mostly for the most part, unintentional, but. you know, that was like that.
That's a difficult thing. It's a difficult thing.

Speaker 1 It's not, not to excuse anything, but just to acknowledge how difficult it is. Right.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, Michelle, well, let's just talk about what is going on with the rest of your family right now,

Speaker 1 with your folks, with Angelin,

Speaker 1 and your nephews, and sort of how

Speaker 1 this has all played out since we last left Lisa's doorstep there in May.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So, and I, you know, I found this out, I think, right before the show aired.

Speaker 2 Or maybe it was like right after. It was somewhere kind of in the midst.
All of that timeline is kind of like, you know, a little, you know, a little intense.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 But anyway, my, my point with that being, I intentionally have chosen not to talk about it publicly because I was really trying my best to respect my sister's privacy.

Speaker 2 It happened, like this, you know, thing

Speaker 2 happened right before the podcast aired.

Speaker 2 After, you know, she knew the dates and my mother knew the dates and all of that. It was kind of finalized.
And

Speaker 2 so I had been.

Speaker 1 So yeah, just to kind of place us, so this would be back in like May after we did our final interview and we had kind of given Lisa the deadlines because we were, you know, I'd reached out to her for comment and obviously, you know, spoken to her.

Speaker 1 And so they knew when the air dates were because of that. Right.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I had, I had verified with my sister, like what the actual air date would be after everything, all of that was kind of finalized. And we knew to kind of prepare her, you know, as much as I could.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 so she went into labor with her second child

Speaker 2 shortly. Like, I think it was like two weeks maybe before the show aired, maybe three weeks.

Speaker 2 And I went over to the hospital. There was like a really kind of dramatic thing seemingly happening.
I don't, the details to me are fuzzy because of course they are.

Speaker 2 But, you know, she went into labor. I went over to the hospital.

Speaker 2 Our mom tried kind of through the nurses and stuff to keep me out and said that I wasn't allowed back and all this. And then some very kind nurses at the hospital were like, no, absolutely.

Speaker 2 You can, you can go back. That's your sister.
So I went back to see her and I was in the room with my mother. My mother was there.
And so that was really awkward moment.

Speaker 2 But I saw my sister and I saw my new nephew and they both seem healthy.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I talked to her. At one point, my mom walks out of the room.

Speaker 2 My sister then tells me that they are moving away.

Speaker 2 And like, again, to kind of place us where we're at, like, we're all still in Georgia at this point. You know, they're still just a couple of streets down from me.

Speaker 2 You know, I'm still able to like see her some and kind of keep an eye on things as much as I can. And so she kind of drops this bomb that they're moving about two hours away from us.

Speaker 2 And I'm just kind of taken aback because the last real conversation I had had with my sister about any of this was she was still very much on the fence.

Speaker 2 Like she really didn't trust our mom, but like she felt kind of stuck and didn't know what to do. And like those were her parents.

Speaker 2 And she was still kind of in the throes of like, I don't know what to do with all of this information.

Speaker 2 And so to hear her say like she was moving with them away, like two hours away from me was just kind of jarring because she's also has literally just given birth.

Speaker 2 I think this conversation happened like 24 hours after she had just given birth. So I'm like,

Speaker 2 you know, taking a step back and I'm like, you know, well, when did you decide that?

Speaker 2 You know, is it, is this something you should maybe put a little bit thought in? And I'm trying to be really gentle, right? Cause she's, I've, you know, I have kids.

Speaker 2 Like I know that that first several months, but especially the first few days after it's a blur, right? Like you don't remember anything.

Speaker 2 And so I'm trying to be really gentle, but I'm also really taken aback during the conversation. And

Speaker 2 I leave the hospital that day and I had messaged her and I'm like, you know, I really love you and I really want to be here for you and our, and my nephews.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I just love you and your boys so much. And,

Speaker 2 you know, can you please just like take a beat to think about moving away with them? Um, because that's really scary.

Speaker 2 And I think you're going to be really isolated because you don't really know anybody over there. And

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 think she messaged me. We had a bit of a tiff

Speaker 2 a couple days. after that because DHR DFAX was called

Speaker 2 while she was still in the hospital after she had given birth. And so she got really upset with me about that.
And to clarify, I'm not the one that called DHR.

Speaker 2 I did not call DeFax, but I think she kind of knew that because I was the only other really person, I think, in their close circle that knew she had given birth.

Speaker 2 Cause I went to a county outside of the county we were living in to give birth, which is another piece, right?

Speaker 2 That's just kind of like in the same little checklist of like going to the county over because people had eyes on her in the county we were in. And

Speaker 2 anyway, anyway, you know, we had a little argument about that, but she was still talking to me and she was still like, still my sister. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Like she was, I could still, she was, she was just like shaken up by it all. And I was really, really scared for her.
And then she went dark for like two weeks. I did not hear from her at all.

Speaker 2 And it was jarring because I had no idea what was going on. I literally did not hear from her, not a text, not a phone call, not a social media post, like nothing.

Speaker 2 There was no social interaction, there was nothing. And this, she posts on her Facebook all the time.
So it was really jarring. And I had no idea what happened.
And her birthday came and went.

Speaker 2 And I tried to reach out to her on her birthday and I heard nothing back from her. And it was very unusual.
And then she, I just get a text out of the blue

Speaker 2 one day. And she acted like everything was fine.
And I was like, what is going on? Where have you been? And she finally told me that

Speaker 2 the day before she was supposed to be,

Speaker 2 she was supposed to be discharged she had some issues with her breathing and she claimed her o2 got down to like in the 80s i believe and they and she ended up in icu um for multiple days and she has another trach now but she essentially told me you know her oxygen level had gotten so low and that they had to intervene um so she was unconscious in the icu for multiple days um and they inserted a trach again so

Speaker 1 she hadn't had she hadn't had a trach since she was a baby right no no um

Speaker 2 no she had not i mean there's no way i mean she she left the hospital you know when she was a baby and um

Speaker 2 after mom had abused her and once she had the trach removed like yeah she once she had the trach removed she hasn't had it since no not at all um so that was really jarring um and come to find out to make it to make matters worse um some people started reaching out to me that my mom was friends with with

Speaker 2 and knew because my mom had told them that my sister was in the ICU

Speaker 2 and was sending pictures of my sister around to the friends that were still around of her unconscious in the ICU with the baby next to her.

Speaker 2 And so it's just been, if that is not just a continuation of all of the red flags, I don't know what is.

Speaker 3 Why would you do that? I mean, If my, if that was my kid, I wouldn't want anybody to see her in that kind of condition.

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Speaker 1 I just want to sort of give us a bit of framing because

Speaker 1 You know, again, again, like you both said at the top of the conversation,

Speaker 1 and I know that sharing details about Angelyn has been one of the most difficult considerations that we've had on this show. I know it's been on your end and it's been on my end as well.

Speaker 1 I know Angeline. I've known Angelyn for a long time.
I

Speaker 1 normally would not share details like this without someone's participation.

Speaker 1 And it has always been the presence of her two babies.

Speaker 1 that has really changed the sort of ethical calculus on that.

Speaker 1 And I know that that's really, obviously you're also concerned about her and her health, but this is just such a dangerous situation and it's such a scary situation.

Speaker 1 And so I just wanted to kind of ground us in that for a moment because Michelle, I know this is something you've been wrestling with talking about publicly.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 because at this point, you know, despite our efforts and the efforts of many lovely listeners from countries around the world who've gotten in touch with the

Speaker 1 Birmingham Police Department, there has been no investigation initiated.

Speaker 1 And, you know, although we know that defects has been called on the family, at least that one time that we know of.

Speaker 1 You know, there's been no intervention that we know of. And also like that's, it's difficult.
It's difficult with what they have to work with.

Speaker 1 These investigations are difficult at the, even at the extremes.

Speaker 1 And, you know, we've also seen how, I mean, we've seen all the failures that happened. And that's not to blame, you know, the people who are currently working there or on this or in the past.

Speaker 1 It's just sort of how badly the system is set up for this.

Speaker 1 So, you know, we're sort of back to

Speaker 1 where we started with the reason for talking about it publicly being that they keep moving.

Speaker 1 And I mean, we're speculating about why.

Speaker 1 But, you know, they keep moving and the effect of that is that watchful eyes that might have been there as a protective mechanism are no longer there and so this is sort of again the one mechanism that we have that you all have to protect the kids and so i just wanted to make sure that we we said all of that because I know this is not you dishing dirt of your sister or like, you know, or trying to sort of punish her, right?

Speaker 1 I think it's not this, none of this is supposed to be, no, or none of this is meant to be punitive of Angelin,

Speaker 1 as concerned as we all are about her choices. So I just wanted to make sure we said that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 And to be like really clear about it, again, I had debated on like saying anything.

Speaker 2 Like I really did not want to say anything because she did tell me that in confidence and she had not shared it to my knowledge with very many people.

Speaker 2 And she is very isolated where she's at and in my parents' house.

Speaker 2 Like she really does not have the ability to talk to anybody or associate with anybody outside of this small little bubble that Lisa has created.

Speaker 2 And I was really trying hard to kind of find the line between protecting her and what she's telling me and making sure she has a safe place to tell me things.

Speaker 2 And the only reason why I decided to talk about it today is because she recently posted her version of the story or a little bit of it on social media.

Speaker 2 And so she's now posting pictures of herself on social media with the Trake

Speaker 2 and kind of told people. And so that's really the only reason why I'm talking about it or had kind of made the decision to talk about it is because she kind of like put it out there.

Speaker 2 And I do know that there are probably some questions floating around about that

Speaker 2 because I have seen a lot of people that have reached out to me that have listened to the podcast that are still friends with her on social media kind of following her post.

Speaker 2 as I'm saying it question if this is like the right thing to do right because on some level maybe I should just shut up because there's at least some eyes on her. I mean, it's, it's all social media.

Speaker 2 So it can be, I mean, we all know social media can be extremely fake, but there's at least people aware of what's going on and then kind of seeing this playing out on social media.

Speaker 2 And so it at least helps me know that there are people who know what's going on because I've talked to these people and they are following her and they are kind of interacting with her on social media.

Speaker 2 But that's really where I'm at.

Speaker 2 It's just, I, I feel like every time I talk to anybody anybody publicly, I'm going to, it's eventually kind of come going to come down to my sister's not going to be able to justify talking to me anymore because I've said too much at some point.

Speaker 2 Because right now, I get the strong impression that she's not supposed to be talking to me. And I'll put it like that.

Speaker 3 Well, I think you're doing what you think the best thing to do. And even though it's social media eyes, it's still somebody, you know, watching because

Speaker 3 the thing that I think a lot of people don't understand, they think this should be a simple process, but they don't realize it's so hard because not only do you have several states involved, it's multiple counties where they have moved so much and stuff has happened in all these different counties.

Speaker 3 And like you said earlier, the you know, the watchful eye is no longer there when they move from county to county to county. And so

Speaker 3 it just makes it more difficult.

Speaker 3 And I just think a social media eye watching, even though a lot of stuff is so fake on social media, I think something's better than nothing because if they're taking the time to reach out to you, at least they care enough to reach out.

Speaker 3 And I know we personally know, me and my husband, Wesley, know several people that live in the area that they live in.

Speaker 3 So we have people more or less quietly trying to get more information and to kind of watch them. And I say quietly because, you know, they wouldn't know the people that we have contact with there.

Speaker 3 So I'm trying to help you, Michelle.

Speaker 3 Like I say, any help

Speaker 3 at this point is better than none to me.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. And I think,

Speaker 1 Sabrina, you had said when we were talking about Lisa sending around that picture of Angelyn with the trach and with her baby laying next to her, which is obviously a very difficult image,

Speaker 1 given all the history, given what that means, having Lisa herself send it, right?

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 you know, that sort of coupled with

Speaker 1 when,

Speaker 1 you know, one of the things that we heard from patients who'd been formerly working with Lisa at Guthy Jackson was that because Guthy Jackson did not communicate to their patient population what had happened in advance of the podcast, during that time period, lisa had been reaching out to some of the patients she's she'd worked with and telling them that she was on leave because your father had cancer and so you know this is obviously just adds up to kind of evidence of that pattern just continuing right

Speaker 1 um medical crises all around her all the time,

Speaker 1 fabrications about medical crises, because as far as we know, your dad does not have cancer.

Speaker 2 Is that right? No, no, he doesn't have cancer.

Speaker 1 And yeah, and I think that's that is sort of on the bigger level, like what we know about these perpetrators is that it is an incredibly compulsive behavior.

Speaker 1 There's no reason to believe that they will cut it out, that it will just sort of find a new outlet.

Speaker 3 I think that's

Speaker 3 something that people haven't experienced or don't have any kind of experience with these situations. They assume it just goes away.
They assume, oh,

Speaker 3 and it doesn't. And what we're seeing is a true picture of how much it doesn't go away.
And in the Angelin situation, I love that child to death.

Speaker 3 And I have tried, me and Wesley have tried and tried and tried to help her.

Speaker 3 And just situations like her sharing, Lisa sharing Angelin's picture on social media with her infant child, a newborn child, you know, my question is,

Speaker 3 what could Lisa have done to that child in that time frame where Angelin was

Speaker 3 not conscious? You know, stuff like that terrifies me because, you know, one of Angelyn's children looked so much like Colin did.

Speaker 3 And I've always been like, what's going to happen when he hits the age Colin did, you know, when all this started happening.

Speaker 3 And then you have a second one and then you're sending pictures of your unconscious adult child with her infant child. That's.
That's horrifying to me.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, just not

Speaker 1 a photo, I think most of us would think to share, right? Just not something you would think like, oh, I'm going to take a, take a picture right now and text it to my friends.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And, you know, I think, Michelle, you know, we've known each other for a long time.
We've known a number of other survivors. And I think you're, you're a lot closer to

Speaker 1 the survivor experience than I mean, I would consider you a survivor, but you're, you're sort of

Speaker 1 not being the main target.

Speaker 1 And then for me, obviously being several more layers removed.

Speaker 1 You know, I think we've learned a lot from some folks about what that experience is like and how strong that psychological manipulation is.

Speaker 1 And I think there is kind of, I think sometimes with child abuse in general, but also like this, you know, this form of abuse in particular, right?

Speaker 1 Of this idea of like, and I saw a lot of this sort of around the like Gypsy Rose Blanchard story, which is obviously obviously the one story that most people you know have heard of if they've heard of this and this idea of like well she was an adult why didn't she just leave and like what you know and it's so it's so short-sighted because

Speaker 1 She was and she wasn't, you know, she'd been kept in this really dependent relationship.

Speaker 1 And that's one of the things that we hear really consistently from survivors, including one that we talked to for our upcoming season, you know, of just that their parent was giving them this constant narrative of you'll never be able to live an independent life.

Speaker 1 You'll always need me, you know, and really

Speaker 1 trying to not let them out of their sphere of control. And we've really seen how treacherous it can be for adult survivors to not get sucked back into that vortex.
And I think it's really, really

Speaker 1 hard to watch someone just get pulled back in.

Speaker 1 I mean, the more I've sort of learned about those folks' experiences, the more I think that that challenge is going to be pretty omnipresent for a lot of survivors. Not everyone.

Speaker 1 Like some of them really like the minute they can get out of there, they cut that cord and they just never look back. And that, that's, that happens also.

Speaker 1 But I think it's also very likely that they will have a lot of trouble cutting that relationship off.

Speaker 2 Well, and I think it's really important, you know, something.

Speaker 2 Something, you know, you had talked about in one of the follow-up episodes we did. And it was like, there's these systems in place, right? Like nobody truly understands what survivors go through.

Speaker 2 And there's a lot of like, and something that's kind of honestly like sat heavy with me is how people

Speaker 2 so easily.

Speaker 2 It almost seems like had such an easy time being very positive to me because I mean, yeah, I consider myself a survivor of my mother, of, you know, somebody, of a perpetrator of medical child abuse.

Speaker 2 However, I don't consider myself a survivor of medical child abuse. And there is that very distinct, very important difference because I don't know.
You know, I don't have that experience.

Speaker 2 I was not medically abused the way a lot of these survivors are, the way my sister was.

Speaker 2 And it's really important because, you know, I think people just have an easier time like looking at somebody like me and saying, oh, well, she was a survivor and she's doing great.

Speaker 2 And like, she's doing wonderful. And she's, and like, the truth of the matter is like.
That's not entirely true.

Speaker 2 You know, I have had a lot of mental health issues, even just being around and watching it and being raised by somebody like that.

Speaker 2 And I can only, you know, understand from that small piece of it of just how hard and difficult that has been for me.

Speaker 2 I mean, I'm in my 30s now and I'm finally emotionally stable, you know, like it's taken a really long time and a lot of mishaps.

Speaker 2 And God forbid, if you guys had talked to me when I was in my early 20s, the disaster that, you know, that would have come from it.

Speaker 2 But yeah, I just, you know, it just kind of, you know, what you were saying, Andrea, about, you know, know, it is really difficult for these survivors, if not downright, in some cases, almost impossible.

Speaker 2 And I just, you know, I wish there were like better systems in place and a better support in place for those type of people because they can't come out and turn into an adult and then be a, you know.

Speaker 2 what we consider as society a functioning adult right like of course my sister thinks that like she's gonna die or her kids are gonna die or the right thing to do is to have her kids around her grandparents and she's stuck right i mean she is literally there.

Speaker 2 Um, I don't blame her for it. I think there are people out there who probably do.
I thankfully, I have been able to stay away from a lot of the, if any, negative commentary about her.

Speaker 2 Um, and that's not to say, like, it is always easy for me because there are times where I am vehemently mad at her and I'm very frustrated with her.

Speaker 2 And I just wish I could shake her and just be like, Can you just please see what is going on in front of you and protect your kids? Um, but I also, I and I know that I can never understand

Speaker 2 the gravity and the weight and the ropes that these perpetrators have on their children.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And to just to reiterate something,

Speaker 3 yeah,

Speaker 3 I mean, people have asked, why don't she just leave?

Speaker 3 And that's like, it has so many different layers to that because they've convinced her that she needs them, that she can't function without them.

Speaker 3 And honestly, I think her mindset is she can't function without them. And that's just the reality.
Her mental health has took such a hit because of everything she's been through.

Speaker 3 However, I do realize you can't go through your life and blaming what happened to you as, you know, how you act, why you act the way you do.

Speaker 3 And like with Michelle, like, well, I won't get into any details because that's not my story. That's not my story to tell.
But, you know, it hasn't always been easy for Michelle either.

Speaker 3 She had to go through hell in high water watching this stuff and seeing all this stuff. And like she said, her mental health, you know,

Speaker 3 she's healthy now. And I'm so proud of her.
She's come for such a long way.

Speaker 3 But it wasn't always like that. She struggled tremendously

Speaker 3 seeing it. So that's something I really want people to understand is we're not mad at, there are times we are mad at Angelin, but we love her and we care about her.

Speaker 3 And we just want her to be safe and we want her children to be safe. But instead,

Speaker 3 why don't she just leave? That is just not the simple answer that people think that it is because,

Speaker 3 and maybe I shouldn't say this, then Angelin can't even function at a job for more than about a week, a week and a half at the time.

Speaker 3 So when you don't have the capacity to go out and function at a job as an adult, because you have been so manipulated and you have, you need me, you need me by your parent or your parents and and that's the mindset you have if you can't go and function more than a week and a half two weeks at a job as an adult you can't you are kind of stuck in that place because you just can't you you don't have money you don't you know you can't just go sleep on the couch you have kids and that's what people I don't understand why that's so hard for people to understand if you can't function as a job how do you live on your own and how do you take care of your kids So I can totally see why she thinks she's stuck there.

Speaker 3 And they have convinced her that she has to be there. Because like I say, she can't even function as a normal adult as far as just being able to hold down a job.

Speaker 3 And that, you know, and this, that's critical to be able to do that.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I think, you know.
Yeah, there's so much in what both of you said that really resonates with me. And I think we do have,

Speaker 1 you know, I mean, number one, we tie every element of survival

Speaker 1 from housing to healthcare access to everything, right? To the ability to function in employment. And

Speaker 1 we are not

Speaker 1 equipped to deal with any member of society who can't do that for any reason, right? Because they're.

Speaker 1 a disabled veteran or you know because they have a long-term illness or a mental health issue and and we um and some people are really quite cruel about that.

Speaker 1 Um, that that's an element of our society that I really don't love.

Speaker 1 Um, that there is this sort of punitive thing of like, just get a job, you know, and like that, as though that is sort of the solution for everything. And I think, um,

Speaker 1 in all of my conversations about child abuse, I think there is a recognition, A, of how the systems fail, but also

Speaker 1 why we don't have or how we can move towards a society where this isn't happening period um

Speaker 1 where

Speaker 1 you know children do not end up back in a home with someone with people like lisa and carry and then have to carry the damage of that for the rest of their lives because that isn't fair um

Speaker 1 and most people are not i mean i think it's been it's been a difficult day i don't want to i don't want to speak broadly about this population or speak on their behalf because while i yes while i am close to the issue again I'm not, I'm not a survivor in that way.

Speaker 1 You know, but I certainly think like it's going to really depend on people. There are some people that, I mean, are

Speaker 1 able to go on and function in their adult lives in ways that people recognize as healthy and productive, right?

Speaker 1 They get, they go get their education, they get a good job, they, you know, make a family, they buy a house, whatever all those sort of markers are of people that, and people love those stories, right?

Speaker 1 People love to say, like, well, look at that person. Like, they did it.
They pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, you know, and like,

Speaker 1 and, and if they can do it, you know, everyone should be able to do it. And that's just not, that's so far from reality.

Speaker 1 And I think, you know, while we're talking about having better interventions with this abuse. and preventing it, hopefully, I mean, we are nowhere near that in the conversation right now.

Speaker 1 And I, you know, I just had a great conversation with Jim Hamilton,

Speaker 1 who's a psychologist and a really well-regarded expert.

Speaker 1 And he was sort of talking about this idea of like what could be some preventative aspects in the healthcare system, especially not these sort of extreme cases like Lisa.

Speaker 1 But, you know, I hope we'll get there where we can start talking about how to prevent this abuse from ever happening. But we're certainly very, a very long way

Speaker 1 away from that now.

Speaker 1 And sort of, I do think the focus should be on intervention and separation when the abuse is discovered, especially because it's almost only discovered when it is something really severe like poisoning or, you know, suffocating or those kind of things that are really putting a child's life at risk.

Speaker 1 And I just don't think think you should get any more. It's my personal opinion.
I don't think we should give people more chances once they've crossed that line.

Speaker 1 And the reality is those systems are not now in place.

Speaker 1 So what we have is children who are going to, by and large, be sent back to those households or stay in those households, be raised by those perpetrators and end up with the same issues that we see so many survivors struggling with right now.

Speaker 1 And we have an existing population of adult survivors that we're just finding, right? Who are just coming together and coalescing and coming sort of out of the shadows in any way.

Speaker 1 And we have to figure out how to take care of them too. And it's just so complicated, you know, feeling frustration, especially because Angeline has children and it's not just her.

Speaker 1 That's perfectly understandable. But I really.
admire both of you for maintaining your compassion because I just don't think we get anywhere without that.

Speaker 1 And I, you know, when people sort of condemn, this is like, that's so unhelpful.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 like, yeah, sort of condemnation and judgment. Now, of course, like there is the complicated factor that, you know, you are technically an adult in the world.
Your behavior impacts other people.

Speaker 1 If you make the choice to have children, your behavior impacts people that didn't have a choice to be here. It is really complicated, but I just, I think maintaining compassion is really the only

Speaker 1 the only way forward. And

Speaker 1 I really wish that we didn't see gainful employment as the only mark of a worthwhile person. That would be great.
I'd like to live in that world instead.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 3 Just because people don't realize that mental health, if you're not meant, your mental health directly affects everything you do.

Speaker 3 And you see the people, you see somebody and you think, oh, well, they look healthy. Why can't they work? And for a large amount of population, that's a true statement.

Speaker 3 But there's a segment of the population that that doesn't, just because they're walking around and they look like they're healthy doesn't mean mentally that they're prepared for those kind of situations so like i'm like you i would rather live in a world where we could you know address that issue and not say oh just get a job and that's going to fix everything because clearly it does not

Speaker 2 and to be clear like i in my 20s especially like i lost multiple jobs because of my mental health like you know straight up you know i i was in that position where you know and i was i'm grateful that i had a lot of wonderful people around me who could take care of me and kind of help me, even if it wasn't always the greatest, but, you know, and, and, and sometimes that was my parents, you know, like to be clear, there were times where, of course, my mom wanted to be the savior and the hero and would step in and say, oh, yes, please come run to me.

Speaker 2 Like, you're so right. And like, you're not capable.
So just come to me for now. And then one day you will be.
And then that one day never comes. Right.

Speaker 2 And when it did come, is when I was a problem again, right? Is when I could show out myself as capable. And, and,

Speaker 2 and honestly, the another factor, taking it back specifically to my sister that I was going to kind of mention earlier,

Speaker 2 I think for her and for her situation, it has gotten even more complicated because, you know, Brent and I were talking and I think it kind of occurred to me.

Speaker 2 And I think even, I think my husband said it.

Speaker 2 I think, you know, he was like, do you think there's a chance that she's taking the brunt of your mom's abuse because she knows now that she's stuck there with her kids.

Speaker 2 It's the only way to keep her kids safe.

Speaker 2 And I do believe that there is unfortunately probably some heavy truth to that because yeah, like this, you know, these perpetrators, this type of abuse, it is very impulsive.

Speaker 2 I 100% believe that my mom is now abusing my sister.

Speaker 2 to not touch her children because she knows there are so many eyes on those children. There has been multiple defects intervention.
She knows, right?

Speaker 2 She knows the moment one of those babies end up sick,

Speaker 2 the world's coming for her. And like with Angelyn, she is an adult.
And so it is easier to slip through the cracks.

Speaker 2 And you, you know, I've had conversations with multiple people about, well, is there adult protective services we can call in? Is there any sort of route we can go here to protect her?

Speaker 2 And at the end of the day, when you talk to my sister, 90% of the time, she seems. normal, right? Like she seems to be within her mind.

Speaker 2 She's able to have conversations, you know, like you and I are having and nobody's going to take that seriously, you know?

Speaker 3 And I think Lisa very well knows exactly what your point was. She very well knows it.
And it's sad. It's really sad to me that Angelin's still taking the brunt of abuse because I agree.

Speaker 3 I totally think she is. I think she's taking it because A, I think she doesn't want that for her children.
But like I say, her mental health's not where she can.

Speaker 3 function enough to do something else. So she's going to take on the abuse because she knows what can happen to them.

Speaker 3 And then Lisa knows exactly, oh, like Michelle said, if one of those kids get hurt, they're going to be right there. But for Angelin, she's an adult.

Speaker 3 And if she says she's fine, they're just going to take her at her word.

Speaker 1 We already are not great about handling this abuse when it's children.

Speaker 1 And it does happen to adults. I mean, we've heard many stories.

Speaker 1 You know, Brittany Phillips, who's the perpetrator we covered in season two,

Speaker 1 her mother died under very suspicious circumstances after she moved to Texas to become become her caretaker.

Speaker 1 You know, Gypsy Rose Blanchard's mother, Dee Dee Blanchard, her mother also died under her care. I mean, it's sort of a part of the pattern for adults to get sick around these folks as well.

Speaker 1 And there's, I mean, yeah, unless the person is

Speaker 1 like, unless you can somehow declare them mentally incompetent, which is a pretty high bar, which is generally a good thing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's just like impossible to intervene.

Speaker 3 And, you know, in saying that,

Speaker 3 and maybe I'm totally out of line to this, I don't, you know,

Speaker 3 but you know, that has made me question Lisa and listen to the other seasons of your podcast,

Speaker 3 especially when she came out and said that she was on medical leave because Carrie had cancer.

Speaker 3 Now, in saying that, I don't believe Carrie was innocent in this whole situation because he knew the situation. But I've just wondered

Speaker 3 when she said he had cancer,

Speaker 3 if he was kind of her next target, to be blunt about it, I guess.

Speaker 2 Well, to kind of add some framing, and I'm going to be very careful in how I frame it because I don't want to give away any, I don't want to like take not something that's not really my business and put it out there for the world to hear.

Speaker 2 So I'm not going to go into too many details. However,

Speaker 2 I believe strongly that that's a situation. It's my understanding that my mother, after they moved, did become a caretaker for an elderly person.

Speaker 2 And that elderly person just recently passed away within the last few weeks.

Speaker 3 Oh, I did not know that.

Speaker 3 I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 I just,

Speaker 1 I don't know. And we know this because of social media posts and that person's obituary.
And yeah. So I mean,

Speaker 1 we will say that person was elderly. However,

Speaker 1 obviously that is a, that's a, that's a scary situation.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because I, again, and I think we, the reason we are able to sort of give it this framing is because just to sort of remind everyone,

Speaker 1 well,

Speaker 1 you know, while we don't have all of the answers about what happened to Colin,

Speaker 1 there was a lot of alarming evidence about that.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 we do know what she did to Angeline. So there isn't a question about what she's capable of.
And,

Speaker 1 you know, there also isn't a question about like whether or not that behavior continues sort of unchecked if it's allowed. I mean, that's just what we know from other cases.
And it's not,

Speaker 1 you know, having that intervention is not a deterrent, right?

Speaker 1 And there is for other forms of abuse, there are people that are sort of able to be rehabilitated and sort of be safe. parents after that, but not for this.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, it's,

Speaker 1 I just say all that to say, like, yes, we are speculating on sort of what may be happening, what might have happened, but we are not speculating about what Lisa is capable of.

Speaker 1 That is information that we have. Right.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Um,

Speaker 1 and yeah, Michelle, I know, you know, something you and I have talked about a lot is like making the choice to sort of dive all the way in, right?

Speaker 1 Like, which like you and I have both done in our various ways, obviously. me with the show and my book and all that stuff.

Speaker 1 And you've been doing trainings and you've been involved with Munch House and Support and that's been amazing. And you've been such an amazing asset to that.

Speaker 1 But that's like definitely not a choice everyone would make to sort of go, all right, I'm going to go learn everything I can about this.

Speaker 1 Because like as your understanding deepens, even though it's helpful in some ways, it's also painful in some ways. Because then it's like you have to face it.
You really have to face it head on.

Speaker 1 And that's a difficult thing.

Speaker 1 And I don't blame anybody for not, you know, like a number of people that have talked to me about their experiences kind of like that was the last they wanted to talk about it.

Speaker 1 And they wanted to just move on with their lives and not think any harder about what, you know, what led their loved one to do those things or what have you.

Speaker 1 And I, again, I understand that choice. And then there, there are a lot of people who do sort of want to be involved.

Speaker 1 And, you know, something that you said to me after the show came out.

Speaker 1 And after, you know, this deluge of like other stories about your mom came out and other people were getting in touch, you know, a lot of people with you in particular.

Speaker 1 And Spring, I'll be interested to know if you had some of these experiences.

Speaker 1 I expect you did, but where it was like other stuff that you didn't know that your mom had done and financial fraud and other sort of narratives that she had been spinning throughout this time period.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 and like that, you made this comment to me that really resonated with me that

Speaker 1 you were sort of realizing anew

Speaker 1 that you had, that you didn't know your mom at all.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, it's, it's weird because I, I was able to like think back to conversations I was having with my mom, like where her and our relationship was at the time where she was telling other people these things, you know, and I had no idea she was telling these people these things.

Speaker 2 And like the financial fraud was, I think, one that just like kind of, it really like solidified this perspective of me because, you know, there's all these things going wrong in her life and she is calling me and she is texting me and she's so sad and she's so upset and she's like, oh my gosh, I just don't know what I'm going to do.

Speaker 2 And it was, you know, this whole, this whole thing, I won't get into it because it's a long story, but,

Speaker 2 you know, and she's texting me all of this, like, I just, I just don't know what we're going to do. And I'm just really sad.
And like, it's just so financially draining. And da, da, da.

Speaker 2 And what she's doing, right, is guilting me because she wanted my help at the time. And I did not.
give it to her.

Speaker 2 And I kept that boundary, which I'm really proud of myself for, looking back on it, especially.

Speaker 2 But then to find out at the same time, she is just like being, and I felt really bad, like even keeping that boundary and saying, mom I can't help you in this I felt really bad in the moment even doing it and so to look back and see literally the proof of it like the text messages and the proof at the you know the time stamps and everything's there and knowing she was telling people like she was defrauding people out of hundreds of thousands of dollars during the same time where she is coming to me and asking me for my help because of XYZ.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And someone, someone sent me, which I think I shared with you, but someone sent me a like voice memo that they had from her making that same ask and it was just yeah it was like quite surreal to listen to and you just sort of realize you're like oh there was all of these other there was the conversations that you were in and the conversations that we knew about and what she said on her social media and then there was just like tentacles and tentacles and tentacles and it is it's never ending like there was some weird crazy conversations she was having online with people that i who knows if they ever you know who knows if what she's claiming happened ever happened and that's doesn't really matter.

Speaker 2 But it is, it is bizarre. And it's to know that I never knew her.
And there's a grief in that to know that I never knew who she was, you know?

Speaker 2 And it's also really, it really messes with your head because then it's like, it's the holidays and like, you know, we're going to celebrate Christmas.

Speaker 2 We're going to look at Christmas lights and we're going to decorate cookies with my kids. And those are things that we did with her.

Speaker 2 You know, and so it's just, it's weird because I look at it and especially this time of year, like I have really mourned a relationship with her.

Speaker 2 And there has been more than one time recently within the past few weeks where I've really wanted to pick up my phone and text her and check in on her and just, you know, talk to her.

Speaker 2 And then having to realize that like

Speaker 2 that version of her was never real.

Speaker 2 Even the parts, even the bad parts I did know, like I knew, you know, some kind of bad stuff she had done to my sister, not all the details, but I kind of knew that she wasn't a good mom for a really long time.

Speaker 2 That was just the surface of it, you know, so it's a weird, complicated, complex grief to know that you never knew this person.

Speaker 2 And it really, it really, I don't know, breaks down a bit of your psyche to realize that the person you were raised by and in the same room with and have a lot of.

Speaker 2 good memories with, you know, we went on a cruise with them one summer with my kids.

Speaker 2 I finally, right before we moved up here, I finally went through and deleted all the pictures off my Frameio, the little digital photo frame.

Speaker 2 I finally went through and deleted off all the pictures of her because it was just like,

Speaker 2 I didn't really know her. Like I knew a version of her that she wanted me to see sometimes, but

Speaker 1 yeah, no, I, that really resonates with me. And I, you know, Sabrine, I wonder for you, like,

Speaker 1 because your relationship with Lisa goes back to when she was a child and like my, my experience of, you know, being, and I'm closer in age a bit than I think to Megan than you are to Lisa. But,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 this experience of like how I grieved her sort of evolved kind of along the trajectory you're talking about, Michelle, where I had this initial grief of like, she's not the person I once knew.

Speaker 1 She's changed. And I sort of thought of this like a death, right? Like there's this person that I grew up with and that I loved and that was this and I have these good memories of.

Speaker 1 And then that person changed so much that she's just no longer there.

Speaker 1 And then the more I learned, and especially, I think, hearing other people's stories, and sort of this detail coming out, and that detail coming out, and hearing this, sort of just looking at these, like all these facets of the things that she'd done, and how far back it went, and how much deeper it was than what I initially knew about.

Speaker 1 And I think I had that same experience, Michelle, that you're describing of like, oh, the person, I don't think the person that I remember

Speaker 1 was ever there in that way. And Sabrina, given that this is someone that you knew from childhood, I just wonder, like, how is your sort of experience?

Speaker 1 And we were talking about sort of these different levels of loss, right? Where it's like, okay, you've been kind of estranged, but now you're really estranged.

Speaker 1 And sort of like, you know, as you've learned, like, you know, you had this period of your life when you were kids, and then you had this period of life where you knew what she'd done to Angeline, but you were maintaining a relationship with her to be in, you know, the kids' lives and like, you know, maybe still trying to hold on to some idea that she had gotten better.

Speaker 1 And like, what's that trajectory kind of looked like for you?

Speaker 3 Well, it's, it's been hard. It's, I guess, it's kind of hard to explain, but I'll try.
Um, Lisa, look, just looking back and thinking about it and thinking about, I mean, they were some good times.

Speaker 3 Do not get me wrong. There were

Speaker 3 sisterly times where we got along really good and you know, it seemed like things were great.

Speaker 3 And then Michelle asked me um did we have any pictures of her you know um and i went back and we live in now we live in um what was my grandparents home so we live in a in a family home and going through stuff there's boxes and boxes of pictures and i just went and randomly grabbed a stack of pictures and i got to looking at photos and you know she always had a hateful face she was never smiling She, it was very rare in pictures that she smiled at all.

Speaker 3 She just always looked like she was miserable. And I say that because looking back, you know, I've got tons of messages of things that she did in high school

Speaker 3 that people remember her doing and things like that. And I remember those things when people would message me.
There were some of them I'm like, hey, I do remember that.

Speaker 3 I do remember when she went through her little passing out spells at school and she lost a lot of weight and got really thin really quick and was

Speaker 3 making herself vomit and all these things. But

Speaker 3 I don't think the Lisa that I wanted to know ever really exists. I think that I had an image in my head of how she, how I wanted her to be.
But I truly don't think that person ever existed.

Speaker 3 Lisa was always mean. She was always hateful hateful to us growing up.

Speaker 3 You know, my little sister, one time, she chased her around the house with a butcher knife that was probably 10 inches long and just different things like that. So I think I,

Speaker 3 in my brain, made myself think that these images I've had of her existed that never really did exist, if that even makes sense.

Speaker 3 Because just looking back, she caused so much chaos and so much turmoil in our family

Speaker 3 before Angelyn was born. And a lot of it started when she started dating Carrie.
I mean, that whole relationship started out in turmoil with a bunch of lies.

Speaker 3 And I think it's been hard for me because I've had to grieve the person that I invented.

Speaker 3 I've had to grieve the person that in my mind I wanted to be there. But the reality has really sunk in that that was never really the person that was there to begin with.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 I think it's the same for me. And I guess where I've,

Speaker 1 the one thought that sort of gives me some peace about it, which if this is helpful to y'all, you know, take it a leave it. But,

Speaker 1 you know, I always think like, well, the good memories that I do have are because I loved her.

Speaker 1 And I remember loving her.

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 being happy in her company. And those good memories were real because they're my memories.

Speaker 1 And so I always kind of try and say, well, like, yeah, it doesn't like, I don't have to go back and erase all of those and say, oh, those weren't real or put those under, I mean, they, they are in some sense under a shadow, right?

Speaker 1 But it's like, I almost feel like actually that this, they were under more of a shadow before I explored all of this and before I faced it.

Speaker 1 And now that, now that it's sort of like, I have a fuller understanding, I can just look back on those and be like, yeah, this turned out to be a really complicated person.

Speaker 1 But like my experience of that in my childhood, I did have a happy childhood. That doesn't actually change that because

Speaker 1 I was there. I was having an honest, you know, authentic love for that person.
And that's, that's what I sort of like, I get to keep that, I guess.

Speaker 2 That's, that's how I think of it. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I mean, that makes perfect sense to me. It really does.

Speaker 1 It really is. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Michelle, what's going through your mind over there? I really wish we were in person today.

Speaker 1 I know, right?

Speaker 1 I wish that Bryant was going to walk in the door with 15 pizzas from Village Pizza, having cleaned out.

Speaker 1 Right, right.

Speaker 2 Don't tempt him.

Speaker 2 I ordered the pizza around my house, just by the way.

Speaker 2 You know, it's just,

Speaker 2 like I said, it's just, I'm really emotional this time of year.

Speaker 2 And this is the first year of just having no contact and just that reality setting in, you know, that like, I do wonder.

Speaker 2 And Andrea, as you were kind of saying that, it kind of occurred to me, like, those memories are really real for me. And the heaviness with that is I get to keep that.

Speaker 2 But like, were any of those real for her? You know, was there ever a moment where like she, is she capable of feeling real love? You know what I mean? The way, the way you and I are.

Speaker 2 And so I think that's it. I think that's kind of what hit me as you were kind of talking about that is

Speaker 2 how sad of a life that is of like being devoid of like what real love is and it's it's kind of crazy because it's just occurred to me like she um she used to talk that way about her mother like about my nana um you know she talked she always said that she never felt unconditional loved by her mother like she was never able to feel that she didn't know what unconditional love was from her mom and it's so it's just kind of it's kind of wild and it's still kind of like when i think about it really deeply you know at moments like this i um it is kind of crazy to me because it's like she was able to express that.

Speaker 2 Like she was able to explain that she never felt unconditional love from her mother, but also her love was conditional. Like her love was not unconditional love.

Speaker 2 And so it's just, it's interesting to me.

Speaker 2 And it's also really sad that she was able to

Speaker 2 say that

Speaker 2 and realize that,

Speaker 2 but then not, she was not able to like give that to her own children, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 It does. And I agree with you that I think that that's where I land.

Speaker 1 You know, that's kind of like where it's, it can be really hard to have compassion for people who've done the things that Lisa has done.

Speaker 1 And I think where I sort of like tend to relocate it in a moment is that like to be able to love and to feel connected with other people is the single thing that makes life on earth worth living.

Speaker 1 And to not be able to feel that is, it is like the saddest thing I think I can imagine.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.
That, and that's hard. That's, um,

Speaker 3 it's hard to to explain that to people. Um, and to hit on Michelle's point, what Lisa said about our mother,

Speaker 3 I can, I can believe what she said about her. Um,

Speaker 3 because I've, me and Wesley have had the conversations many times that what I, what I thought was normal in childhood growing up you realize it's just so not normal because our mom was always

Speaker 3 well nobody loves me nobody cares about me

Speaker 3 if you cared about me you would do this or you would do that and that would that's the kind of thing and I think that's probably what Lisa was probably talking about when she did the feel of unconditional love because As I get older and process things and deal with all these things that have happened, I've learned in the holidays hard.

Speaker 3 The holidays are hard. The holidays hit really hard.

Speaker 3 Of course, my mom's been gone for nine years now, I guess. And my dad died on Christmas Day, actually,

Speaker 3 what, two years, three years ago this year.

Speaker 3 And just looking back, you do realize. maybe that love wasn't unconditional when it came to my mom.
So with my kids and with Collie Bella especially,

Speaker 3 I just try so hard, you know, to make them feel to show them, not, you know, we do go overboard, but I try to show them, you know, I try to always show up, you know, and be there for the important things that are important to them because just because it's not important to me doesn't mean it's not important to them.

Speaker 3 So, but yeah, I can't, I can resonate with

Speaker 3 why Lisa would say that about mama.

Speaker 1 Well, I think you guys are both,

Speaker 1 you know, we were sort of talking earlier about, I'm just kind of like to wrap all this up, but we were talking earlier about how, you know, sometimes our expectations about how people are going to show up after being through a big trauma are kind of unrealistic and maybe unfair.

Speaker 1 But I do think it's a really admirable thing when

Speaker 1 people who did not have the parents that they deserved, whatever, that, you know, to whatever degree really show up for their kids and just try their level best to be really good parents and to be loving parents and I definitely see that with both of you and that's something I really admire about both of you um

Speaker 1 and yeah I mean I just want to kind of bring us to a close here again I so wish we were sitting on the porch and

Speaker 1 you know eating pizza and and being able to chill out in person and I want to tell you both that like

Speaker 1 this was a really obviously this is such a hard story to tell and um i know the whole team feels really honored that you trusted us to tell it.

Speaker 1 And our audience, it's resonated so much with our audience, and it's meant so much to our audience to hear from both of you.

Speaker 1 And, um, and I just have, I have to say, I have such good memories of being with you both in Georgia.

Speaker 1 I just, those are like looking back on it, I was like, look, going through all my pictures from this year, and I was just like looking at those pictures.

Speaker 1 And, you know, especially Michelle, you and I got to spend so much time together this past year. And I know it was really hard.
It was really a special experience for me.

Speaker 1 And I, I just, um, I just have, I just, I'm sending both of you so much love.

Speaker 1 And yeah, I mean, is there anything just else you want to say? We would love to have you back on and sort of hopefully there will be kind of developments with the situation in the positive eventually.

Speaker 1 But yeah, is there anything you guys want to say just as we as we wrap up here?

Speaker 2 Well, I could. still talk for hours.

Speaker 2 I've gotten to a point where I don't talk about it as much, you know, because I've done so much processing this past year but i still find myself like wanting to talk to survivors and um just talk about this abuse in general so i'm always you know i'm i'm a yapper in case you guys didn't know that already um

Speaker 1 we love a yapper obviously me too professional yapper

Speaker 2 yeah um but yeah i mean i just you know grateful does not even begin to cover it um I guess my final thoughts are, I have started looking back on like this whole year.

Speaker 2 When I I go back and listen to those first recordings that we did, it is like I finally got all of my emotions back this year.

Speaker 2 As you can't tell, because I think I've card three times since we've been recording, but like, if you go back and listen to those first recordings we did, I was there, but like, it's almost like the emotions were still very removed from it because I had spent so much time like disassociating from it and just putting it in the back of my mind and just because I wasn't able to just get it all out and process it and just purge it.

Speaker 2 Right. And so that's really been just a really wonderful experience.
Hard, but just great to kind of have that realization that I just, it was, it was like a floodgate, right?

Speaker 2 This whole year has been a big floodgate of emotions, but it, that's, it's good because it makes me feel like more whole as a person, right?

Speaker 2 That I finally kind of got back all those different parts of myself.

Speaker 1 That's beautiful. And Sabrina, what about you? What? Any, any final thoughts for today? Never final, final.

Speaker 3 No, because I would love to talk to y'all.

Speaker 1 anytime um listen i think i think the listeners just want you and brent

Speaker 1 like and michelle to have your own podcast i think we would just

Speaker 3 sabrina and talk about talk about life in the south we would love it we'd love it we have we have talked about the podcast but more than anything i'm so grateful um for all the work you did and for mariah and everybody who had a hand in it to bring the story out it's been

Speaker 3 emotional to say the least, but there are so many people who have reached out and, you know, not necessarily in this situation, but are going through hard situations that just need to talk to somebody.

Speaker 3 And so I just want to say,

Speaker 3 nobody is ever alone.

Speaker 3 You know, if you need help and you don't have anybody to talk to, reach out to me, contact me.

Speaker 3 Don't ever think you're alone because this has been so therapeutic for me to be able to do this.

Speaker 3 And if it, you know, we've said the whole time, if it just helps one person, if it just helps one person, that's one person. And if that person can help with somebody else.

Speaker 3 So I just want everybody to know that they are loved by somebody and there is somebody that cares.

Speaker 3 And to reach out because there is somebody that anybody can talk to. And like I say, reach out to me.
I may not know you, but but I'll try. I'll give it my derndees.
And that's one thing I've learned.

Speaker 3 I've had people to reach out to me that I'll probably never meet in my life that have shown so much compassion for the situation.

Speaker 3 And I just want to extend that to others and let them know that you are never in this by yourself.

Speaker 2 She's everybody's aunt, Sabrina.

Speaker 3 Truly. Everybody.
I love everybody.

Speaker 1 Aunt Sabrina loves you.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 girls, another lovely time with you.

Speaker 1 Nobody Should Believe Me is produced and hosted by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our editor is Greta Stromquist, and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett.
Administrative support from NOLA Carmouche.

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