An Interview with Gene Stupnitsky and Lee Eisenberg

I used to have this idea of what home security was.

I thought it was like an alarm that goes off after someone tries to break in and that scares off the intruder.

Maybe it gets your neighbor's attention.

But what I learned is that's really a reactive approach.

By the time the intruder's in your home, it's too late.

And you know, that's one of the things I really love about Simply Safe because their system is designed to be proactive, not reactive.

And here are ways that they are proactive.

They use smart, AI-powered cameras to identify threats lurking outside your home and immediately alert SimplySafe's professional monitoring agents.

You also might be wondering, how do I design my home security system?

And I can tell you from personal experience, their website is so easy to use.

They literally have a toggle that says build my system and you click on it and you go through all the different features that they offer and there are so many.

I've found that really helpful.

Some of the cameras they offer are like the outdoor cameras, the video doorbell pro,

which that one I really like because you can see who's coming right up to your front door.

Visit simplysafe.com slash office ladies to claim 50% off a new system.

That's simplysafe.com slash office ladies.

There's no safe like simply safe.

The state farm personal price plan gives you options to choose from to help you find the right amount of coverage for you.

And you know what?

Choosing from options?

You know I love options.

They make me happy.

You know why I love many desserts?

It's because I don't want to pick one thing.

Options.

This is what's so cool about State Farm, because they help you make the right choice for you and to help you save for the things you really want because of the options.

The State Farm Personal Price Plan can help you create an affordable price when you choose to bundle home and auto insurance.

You have options to choose from to help best fit your needs.

Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan.

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state.

Coverage options are selected by the customer.

Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state.

I'm Jenna Fisher and I'm Angela Kinsey.

We were on the office together and we're best friends.

And now we're doing the Ultimate Office Lovers podcast just for you.

Each week we will dive deeper into the world of the office with exclusive interviews, behind-the-scenes details, and lots of VFF stories.

We're the Office Lady 6.0.

Hey there.

Hi, everybody.

Happy Wednesday.

Happy Wednesday.

How are you today?

I'm good.

Yeah.

I'm feeling good.

Feeling good.

Yeah.

You know what I'm going to do later?

What?

I am going to buy cheese at one of my favorite places to get cheese.

Of all the things I thought you were going to say, that did not pop in my mind.

I love, I love a cheese board.

Why are you making a cheese board?

Because my sisters are visiting.

Oh, okay.

That's hard.

You know, I want to set out a little something they can nibble on after a travel day.

My new favorite snack is slices of brie cheese on these like seeded Trader Joe's crackers.

I mean, what's not to love?

I know.

And then I'll put a few berries on the side.

This is my go-to snack.

On the side?

Why not put it right on top?

A berry?

What was this reaction?

A berry on top of some brie?

Am I saying something crazy here?

An apple slice?

Like a green apple slice on top of your brie, on top of your cracker?

Sure.

Berry.

Give me a raspberry on there.

A raspberry?

Why not?

Maybe a cranberry?

A lady.

Come on.

I eat cranberries and cheese all the time.

I brought some.

Look, right here.

Look at that.

Cranberries and cheese.

Look at that.

Okay.

The sass we have started with this morning

from both of us.

Let's tell everyone what we're doing today.

Well, we have a really fun Office Lady 6.0.

We have not one, but two

really fantastic guests on.

We do.

We got to catch up with the amazing office writing team of Gene Stopnitsky and Lee Eisenberg.

But before we get to those interviews, I was curious, what were we doing, Jenna, in April 2008 on the set of the office?

Because that is around the time when we filmed one of our guests today's most famous episodes.

And since I never delete an email, I can tell you.

What?

This all centers around the week we were doing.

Can you guess it?

What is one of their most famous episodes?

Their most famous episode is probably dinner party.

Yes, dinner party.

First of all, I got an email from Joya at nbc.com.

She wrote me and said, hey, Angela, we saw some dailies from dinner party.

That episode is going to be fantastic.

I can tell already.

I have some questions for you to answer.

Let me know if you can.

I responded, hey, we're on location the whole time at this condo, so no computer for me.

Can I do this next week?

Plus, we get home most nights at 10 p.m.

and I go straight to bed.

So we were working some late nights that I remember that.

Next up in my digital clutter, I got an email from you.

You were planning my baby shower.

And I guess I had to come to set late because I had a doctor's appointment.

And you sent me an email titled Tea Party Exclamation Point.

And when I opened it up, it said this, lady, you get your wish.

Your shower is going to be catered by Paddingtons.

Oh, the best tea house in Los Angeles that has now shut down.

I know.

They had the best chicken salad tea sandwiches on this earth.

It was so, it was just a cute little spot, too.

And then you ended your email with, how big is the baby now?

Oh.

Next email was from Chris Haston, Kate's boyfriend.

He was on the set of the dinner party taking pictures, and he sent me a really funny photo that he took of me and Rain between scenes in my Big Pregger's Belly.

He said, here's one.

I've got some more.

Smiley face.

And I have the picture.

Okay.

And lady, you and I were doing press for the show.

We got an email from NBC Publicity saying we would like to do a satellite media tour with Jenna and Angela for the return of the show.

Oh, because it was the return after the big break of the writer's strike that year.

Yeah.

And it was going to be for dinner party.

Oh, boy.

You and I were going to start at 7 a.m.

and go till 10 a.m.

talking about the show.

Okay.

Okay.

Next email was from me to you.

I guess your mom had sent me these fuzzy flip-flops.

So I sent you a picture and I said, please pass this pic on to your mom.

A thank you card is on the way.

I love my flips.

Oh.

I was very pregnant in the picture.

Finally, Greg sent out an email to the cast and crew.

He said he would like to do a farewell for Kent Sabornak.

Greg had gotten him a Rolex and had engraved on the back, Kent, good times.

Love the office.

Oh, that's so lovely.

There's a little picture into our lives the week we filmed dinner party.

Well, we talked to Gene and Lee a lot about dinner party.

We did.

And it's a good convo.

They are so interesting to talk to.

Their point of views about all of it, oh my gosh, I loved it.

So, you guys, Gene and Lee joined The Office in season two, and they wrote the biggest hit episodes of the show.

That's right.

They wrote The Fight, The Secret, Michael's Birthday, The Convention, Traveling Salesman, The Return, Women's Appreciation, and Dinner Party, Job Fair, Weight Loss, The Surplus, New Boss, The Lover, Scott's Todd's, and The Cover-Up.

They also directed Michael Scott Paper Company and The Lover.

And they made cameos as Gino and Leo from Vance Refrigeration.

And, you know, in addition to their work on the office, they also co-created, wrote, and executive produced HBO's Hello Ladies with Stephen Merchant.

It's great.

Yeah.

And they worked on other series like Trophy Wife.

They worked on Bad Teacher, both the movie and the television show, and Smilf.

And look, they've gone on both to be showrunners and written on several TV shows and movies separately, but they reunited in 2023 to co-create Jury Duty.

Oh, it's so good.

It's so good.

It's a critically acclaimed miniseries.

It won a Peabody Award for its innovative blend of comedy and reality storytelling.

Well, listen, we just love this interview.

We kind of just went through their episodes and we also got some new insights into how the writing process worked on the show.

So let's take a quick break.

And when we come back, it's Jean and Lee.

Are you ready?

Because it is Macy's big ticket sale.

What does that mean?

That means you can get up to 60%

off.

These are the lowest prices of the season on furniture, mattresses, and rugs.

So let me break it down a little bit.

Mattresses are 20 to 60% off.

Outdoor furniture, 50 to 60% off.

This is the area I will be clicking on.

Definitely need some new outdoor chairs.

Ours are a little rough looking.

Also, indoor furniture, 10 to 60% off.

Rugs, 55 to 65% off.

There are great financing options and white glove delivery.

Macy's big ticket sale runs August 27th through September 15th.

Shop now at Macy's.com or in store.

Hey, y'all, I'm Maddie and I'm Poodle.

And together, we host the podcast Reality Gaze.

We are two ridiculous homosexuals who love nothing more than talking about reality television and tearing at a new one.

So whether it's 90 Day Fiancé, Love is Blind, Love After Lockup, or any other trash TV show about lonely hearts looking for love, your gay bestie's got you covered, y'all.

New shows every week.

Follow and listen to Reality Gays wherever you get your podcast.

Let's vlog.

This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace.

Today I had lunch with Ileana, who does our website, and we talked about the shop feature on our Squarespace website.

We can't wait.

We have some new merch coming and we're going to have a new little drop-down feature.

But this is the great thing about Squarespace.

We have been using it for years and it continues to grow with our business.

There's so many great templates and tools on Squarespace that you can design the perfect website for your business.

It's really an all-in-one platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online.

Whether you're just starting out, which we were years ago, or as you start to evolve your brand and add more things to your website, Squarespace is there for you.

They make it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content to time, all in one place.

And you know, every dream needs a domain.

Squarespace Domains makes it easy to find the best name for your business at one fair, all-inclusive price.

No hidden fees or add-ons required.

Head to squarespace.com slash office ladies for a free trial.

And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com/slash office ladies to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain

hello gene and lee

guys hello welcome to office ladies we're so thrilled to have you here today this is so fun jean i haven't seen you in forever lee the last time i saw you we ran into each other at the same dinner spot that is right years ago

lovely meetup i haven't seen you guys in so long i mean lee i do have a nouveau bed cover on my bed we'll get to that i'm very excited to discuss that you sent me

and gene i said this before we got on the mic you look exactly the same to me so i don't know what kind of magic potion bless your heart it's called a filter that's my line it's called a filter

jenna why don't you kick us off with the first question well you know we normally ask people how they got their job on the office and that is one of our questions but we want to back it up and ask how did you two meet and become writing partners?

Gene, you want to take this?

We met on the, not on the set, but on the office of the film Bedazzled, Harold Ramos, who was a director, obviously, on the office as well.

And

Lee was an office PA and I was an intern.

I had just moved to LA.

And I think we had just moved to LA a few months before that.

And we became friends.

And we didn't immediately start writing together,

but we were friends and

both wanted to be writers.

And I think, think

you were writing drama at the time, right?

I was.

I was writing very serious drama at the time.

Very serious drama.

Please elaborate.

There's a lot of drama and it's very serious.

Give us a nugget.

The first show that I ever got hired on was Jag,

the military courtroom drama.

Yeah, yeah.

That's pretty serious drama.

That is.

High stakes.

And then I was fired, I think like maybe

four weeks in, maybe, maybe six weeks in.

Were you given a reason for your firing?

Were you just

where to begin?

Well, I was so intimidated by,

I was like, how do these people write like military courtroom stuff?

So I basically just googled all like the acronyms so that like my scripts would look like

you know that I like was in the military and had been a lawyer in the military.

And then the first note I got was like they couldn't, they couldn't follow anything because like I had all these acronyms that they didn't know existed.

It was not a

respectfully to anyone who worked on that show, I did not find it now, now I would like the benefit of hindsight.

It was not a particularly well-run show.

And I don't think it really supported or lifted up young voices.

And also, to be fair to them, I probably was not quite the right fit for it

based on where my career went from there, from that moment.

Yes.

Yeah.

So you guys started writing together.

And was the office your first job as writing partners?

We sold a pilot to Fox a few months before we got on the office.

And that became our sample that Greg read and

Terry Weinberg and all the, you know, all the folks at Revelli had read.

And that was basically, we decided to write a show loosely based on us, and we decided to not make it characters named Lee and Gene, who were losers who lived together, who were codependent writers.

So we basically took all of that except changed their names to Lonnie and Gordo and made them magicians.

But everything else was the same.

They were codependent losers who lived together.

And that became a sample that uh got us hired on the office and maybe also became leo and gino we we don't have a lot of range it goes from leo gino to lania gordo to leo and gino

um so when you guys came in to meet on the office did you meet with greg because a lot of people have shared with us their first meetings with greg and i'm so curious if you had one we did we met with terry first and then we met with Greg and we met him in like Westwood, I think.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, like a coffee shop in Westwood.

And in my mind, I didn't know what he looked like, but I thought he'd be wearing a cowboy hat.

I think because of King of the Hill or something.

I don't know why.

I was like, he doesn't look anything like what I expect him to look like.

And our agent told us, you know, it'll probably be a long meeting.

He does long meetings.

And it was.

It was a couple of hours, two to three hours.

That is what we have heard from folks and that the conversation goes kind of all over the place.

Yeah.

No, he's, I mean, he's very thoughtful.

You got a sense of how his brain worked.

And, you know, nothing gets past him.

And he has a lot of questions.

And he had a notebook with him.

Lee said something about us writing from theme, which wasn't even true.

Yeah, it was something we had heard.

And like, we kind of

parroted it.

And Greg got really excited and

pulled.

He's like, oh, look, I just wrote that in my notebook, right from theme.

I remember that.

No, no, no.

It was actually like his note.

His notebook was like, it's what I imagined the Unabomber's notebook would have looked like.

It was really like every page was just filled.

And

Harold Ramos had always talked about writing from theme.

Gene and I, I would say, had not up until that point

written from theme.

And so he's like, What did you learn from Harold, Ramos?

I was like, What did we learn from Harold?

Like, and I was like, How to smoke weed?

Like, I like, I was so, and I said, I said, Um, Harold always writes from theme.

And Greg's eyes lit up.

And then he flipped to the page, and in all block letters on the top, it said, Theme is important.

Yeah, which is a very funny thing to see.

Can you share with our listeners what does it mean to write from theme?

Writing from theme is like you want to explore

jealousy.

You want to explore a mother-daughter dynamic.

You know, it's the haves and the have-nots.

It's kind of like writing from an idea.

And then writing from character would be like, oh, I think it'd be really funny if there was a character who

was the manager of an office.

And then, and he could be funny because of X, Y, and Z.

I would say Seinfeld has no theme.

Seinfeld is just purely character comedy.

Okay.

That is so interesting to me.

And it made it into Greg's book his spiral that he carries around but then you guys actually joined the staff in season two right yeah i mean we were when we were living together we would first we watched the british office and we were huge fans of that and then we saw season one and we were huge fans of that we were really impressed at how how you guys pulled it off because we did not like everyone else we did not have high expectations for the American version because we love the British one so much.

And I mean, how could it be good?

And we saw the pilot, actually, right?

Yeah.

The pilot.

And not even like the final cut.

We had a friend who worked at NBC who showed us the pilot.

We couldn't believe it.

And then we watched the first season, you know, every week.

And it was like six episodes.

And it was just fantastic.

I mean, we couldn't believe it.

And then after, you know, we met with Greg, we got a call from our agent.

And we were offered the office with no guarantee of that we'd be able to write a script.

Just, I think it was like eight episodes or something.

It was six episodes for the office with like six backup scripts.

Yeah.

Like if you counted the number of writers, it felt like pretty, we were going to be one of the backup scripts.

Yeah.

And then, or a full season on an animated show on Fox, one of those animated shows.

And American Dad, which is American Don for 30 years.

So you had to pick American Dad, which had a long, long like shelf life possibilities, right?

Or kind of take a risk on this show that only had a six episode pickup for the first season.

And there was one more.

Well, there was one more show in the midst.

Do you remember, Gene?

So the John Stamos show?

Jake in progress that's right with john samos

that's right wow yeah real sliding doors moment for us

even though guys you had three offers to choose from i mean we know how talented you guys are but that is not usual for writers to have like three different job offers at the beginning of a new television well that's kind of rad this was after five years of abject failure so you know this was your year the year before we got hired on the office and gene you can correct me on the number and i don't like to talk about money because it's tacky but gene declared i believe eight thousand dollars in earnings the year before he was hired on the office yeah i think it was like seven thousand yeah but i remember my my accountant was like okay let me get your tax returns from last year i was like taxes i was like what do you mean i was like what never pay taxes and then so you know it was not even a question even though it was going to be a guaranteed full season of this other show that had been you know running for a long time we didn't even hesitate we knew we wanted to be on the office, even though it was only going to be six episodes.

It was a no-brainer.

And then your very first episode was the fight.

And I was looking up the best Jim Dwight pranks, and this opener is listed in every list where people love this prank where.

Jim puts Dwight's desk in the bathroom, but it's so funny.

Fans love it.

Time magazine did a list of all the best Jim pranks.

That one makes it on there.

What a fun episode to have be your first episode.

It was, I, I actually, I actually just, I actually just rewatched it, Gene.

Um, it's really, I was really proud of it.

It was really, it was very, it was fun.

It was so, you know, we wrote that episode the entire first season of the off, I would say like maybe the first season two, season three.

I was convinced we were going to get fired.

I think like probably until maybe like, maybe until dinner party, I thought like every, and maybe even past dinner party, I just, I was always waiting to be fired.

Gene was too.

And so when we wrote the fight, Greg had pneumonia.

And so everyone kind of got sent off to write their scripts.

And we kind of like, we were sent off with like as little information as like one could be sent off with to write an outline.

And certainly for your first episode, it had kind of jag vibes to it.

And

so we wrote this outline and we went to Greg's house to get notes, like, cause Greg couldn't come into the office.

He was that sick.

Yeah.

Pretending to be that sick.

Yeah, exactly.

And so we went to Greg's house and I remember Greg teaching us about subtext subtext because we were like,

like Jim and Pam, like Jim probably said something like, I really like you.

He was like, yeah, you might want to dial that back.

He was like, sometimes, sometimes when someone, you know, has an interest in someone else, they sometimes, without saying it, you get a sense of how they feel.

Like, oh, interesting.

Okay.

That's why we're both single.

And so then we were, and so that I was like, you can like someone and not tell them.

And so, you know, we ended up doing a rewrite on the outline and ended up writing the first draft.

But the entire time I was like, oh, they're setting us up to fail.

This is their excuse.

We're going to write a terrible draft of the script, and then everyone knows that we don't belong on the show, and then we'll get fired.

And then it was like, Of course, that's like where things are headed.

But that did not happen.

Did not happen.

Byte is awesome.

And you guys wrote so many great episodes before dinner party, telling you and letting you into our mind.

Yeah, I will say, I wasn't as worried that we were going to get fired, but I do remember we wanted to leave the show early on.

And we called our agent.

We're like, We don't, we don't like it here.

We want to go.

Everyone was mean to us.

And he's like, Uh-huh.

He's like, are you an idiot?

We had been offered a blind script by Fox.

So we sold it.

We sold Lottie and Gordo to Fox and they offer us a blind script, which means that, you know, they would basically give us money without knowing what the idea was, but we'd have to come up with a story for them and a script.

And it was for a lot less money than working on the office.

But yes, people were not nice to us initially and we were intimidated.

And we did ask if we could leave.

Who wasn't nice to you?

Well, it was so ironic because the people who weren't nice to me.

Name the names or say departments.

I'm going to tell you because they're our friends, which is so funny in retrospect.

This BJ and Paul.

They're your friends now.

They're my friends now, BJ and Paul, who I talk to all the time and see all the time.

But at the time, I was, you know how they are.

Like if you don't know them, you know, it's kind of, we're the new guys, right?

Yeah.

And Jen also started when we did.

And she's so outgoing and so nice.

And

I mean, she was very nice to us.

And, but, you know, kind of like the clicks had formed and we were the new kids.

And we're just like, you know, we don't need this.

We can go have a, have a blind script deal at Fox.

And, but so we called and our agent was like, uh-huh.

Uh-huh.

But it was basically like, you guys are dumb.

Go make friends.

Stop.

Yeah, go make friends.

Don't be weird.

Yeah.

Can you talk about being on set for that first episode when we were shooting the fight?

What do you remember?

I have two strong memories.

Well, a few things.

The first was we had never been on set before and no one, Greg just really, I mean, he really empowered writers in an amazing way to produce their own episodes, to be in the production meetings, to be in the sound mixes, to be in the edit, all of it.

And we learned so much from it.

And that, you know, it was like grad school for us.

The first day, I don't remember what the scene was, but we were shooting and the camera missed something.

And Gene and I ran in from the little, you know, Greg's office.

We ran into set.

I went up to the director and said, hey, you missed, the camera missed that thing.

And he was, yeah, no, I saw that too.

Okay, great.

Thanks, guys.

And then we went back to the office, to our little, you know, video village office.

And then the next take, there was something else.

We ran back out to set because we, because we are the onset producers, because the on-set producers, like, we have to show our value.

So we ran back in and we said, like, hey, you know, can you adjust this or whatever?

He said, oh, yeah, of course.

I was planning on doing that too.

And ran back to our thing.

And then I think after the third time, someone came to see us.

It was Ken Zubornak, who was the producer.

He was like, hey, guys,

you can't come in on every taste.

We are seeing what you're you're seeing.

Like when the camera misses the thing, it's not like you guys are eagle-eyed if we didn't see it.

So just, you got to let the director have a little.

It was also Ken Papas who had directed the pilot.

And he's so sweet and also so good at his job.

Yeah.

And didn't need us coming in.

We just didn't know.

And so we, so we're kind of instructed that, like, give the director, give the actors, like the actors also know that maybe they didn't, they didn't quite get what they wanted.

So like, let everyone have a little bit of space.

Let it breathe a little.

Let it breathe.

So that was the first thing.

And then the other thing was we were shooting the cold open and Dwight's desk is missing.

And they start kind of rehearsing it.

And maybe it was the first take.

And Greg happens to come down.

And he says, why isn't there anything under his desk?

There'd be like little,

you know, like hole punch, like little

trash, right?

Yeah.

Like our rubber bands, things.

Lint and dust.

And, and I, and he's like, you guys didn't think of that.

And, and also like, and I was like, oh my God, oh my God, we're like so ill-equipped to do this.

How could we not have thought that there'd be like dirt under someone's desk if the desk was moved?

So, Greg had

set deck like add stuff.

And I was like, what a genius.

That is pretty genius.

He thinks everything.

Yeah.

In fact, I remember the last time I did see the episode, I remember thinking, oh, look, there's crap underneath his desk.

That's good.

I didn't remember that story.

I was like, oh, is that us?

That's so funny.

One of my favorite details from that episode is the 10 rules of karate that hangs on the wall in the dojo, which I understand you guys wrote that list.

And Lee, you have that poster.

I think it's in my garage.

That poster was in our office for a long time.

That was a real delight to write.

So I did karate growing up and I was in the junior Olympics, no big deal.

Hey, hey.

You were in the junior Olympics for karate?

I was, yeah.

Wow.

I got my ass picked by an Oklahoman

as I recall.

But anyway, so like, kind of like being in a dojo was a lot of my childhood.

And so like when Greg said like, hey, there should be a list of rules, cheetah, I had a lot of fun with that.

Do you guys have any other things that you took as keepsakes from your time on the office?

Oh, wait, hold on one second.

Oh, I wonder what he's going to bring.

Lee is going to grab something.

Now I said that, and now I don't know if I can find it.

I have.

Oh, I know what you're going to.

I know what it is.

I have the mallard.

Yeah.

You have to.

You have the mallard?

Wait, I like literally.

And Dwight used to spy with?

Yeah.

Oh, that's a good one.

Where is it?

Oh, that's so weird.

It must have gotten moved.

You have to promise me you'll find it and take a picture of it and be with it.

Please with the mallard.

Please.

That's amazing.

What about you, Gene?

Did you take anything?

No, I have nothing.

I wish I had stolen a bunch of.

That would be worth so much now.

I have nothing.

I have no, I just have my memories and those are fading quickly.

So soon I'll have nothing.

Well, I think NBC is still selling stuff off.

So you could probably get something.

Greg shared with us that he bought.

Pam's front reception desk from the NBC auction.

Oh my God.

No.

Yes.

And it's in his production office.

It's in his production office.

No.

Yeah.

Hilarious.

I know.

I mean, I want to go see it.

I do too.

You have to go see it.

Oh, that would be wild, Jenna, if you do.

So your second episode was The Secret, and it had that famous cold open, The Up Dog.

It's so funny.

I just watched it this morning.

And when Michael can't deliver, when he goes around trying to do the updog to everybody, and then finally Dwight takes the bait and he can't remember how to finish it.

His performance is so great.

But Jenna and I were, we found out that that's sort of based on something that happened to you guys.

Oh, so the year that I made $7,000, I made the money I made, it was from being a nanny and like going on vacation with this family that I knew.

And you traveled with them to watch the kids on their vacation.

Exactly.

Exactly.

I think I'd been fired.

I was always getting fired as an assistant.

I'd been fired and I went with them somewhere.

And one of the kids did it to me.

And I was like, oh, and actually, that would happen a a lot.

You know, like one of the other kids, you know, like, I was complaining about something and they're like, oh, why don't you go call the Wambulance?

And I was just, any of those little things would, you know, oftentimes end up in the show.

So Updog, they did to me.

And I was like, oh, okay.

Started that away.

And that's what it was.

Just to continue on the theme of me being convinced that we were going to get fired.

So the secret, for whatever reason, we fell behind in the writer's room.

And we got like, we had to break the secret in like, I remember it was like me and Gene and Mike, Mike Scherr, and we broke it like in a, like a day or something.

And it was a pretty big episode.

Wow.

And Gene and I went off to write it.

I think we wrote it in like three or four days, which was way shorter than, but like, we needed a draft because there was a table read and, you know, whatever the thing.

We always thought we were being set up to fail.

Why did they do that?

I was like, oh, of course.

The great writer's room conspiracy.

I also like now having, like, now having been a showrunner, the idea that like all that Greg was thinking about was like, how to f ⁇ with like beat snap writers and make his show worse.

Yeah.

What a weird decision.

No, but so anyways, we got such a short amount of time to write it that we were like, oh, we're, we're screwed.

And I remember calling Mike to say, can we do like on the board of the writers room?

They're all the kind of the index cards with all the different storylines or potential storylines.

And spring cleaning was one of them.

And it was going to be like a big, you know, could have potentially been its own episode.

And I was like, can we we take spring cleaning for the secret?

We're desperate.

And then he was like, Okay, you can do it.

And we're like, Oh my god.

And so we put spring cleaning into the secret last minute because we just like needed something, we needed a beat story.

You know, a lot more of it's in the Superfan episode.

It starts with like Dwight, he comes in with all of these different size trash bins, and he's just unloading all these trash bins.

And he's whistling the song Tequila, but when he gets to Tequila, he goes, Spring cleaning.

So it definitely has a bigger presence in that version.

That's really funny.

I have a tangential story about Greg Daniels thinking that I was purposely tanking an episode of The Office.

Oh, so I don't know.

Now, when I'm hearing this, I'm like, is this like a writer thing where like there's some neurosis in writers that makes them think that like people are conspiring to make their work bad?

I don't know.

So it was that episode, the delivery, and there was this scene where Pam was supposed to be singing to baby Cece, who wouldn't nurse.

And I was supposed to be saying things like, in that way where you're talking to a baby, but you're saying like, you stupid little baby, I can't stand you.

And why won't you just nurse with your stupid little mouth and your dumb crying?

It was like something like that, where I was supposed to be like kind of insulting the baby as like a coping mechanism for the fact that I was so tired and I couldn't nurse.

And you guys, I couldn't do it.

I couldn't do it.

Like I just did not have it in me to say mean things to this little newborn baby that they handed me on the set.

And I tried and tried and tried.

And it was the only time that Greg ever called my manager.

My manager agents, they all called me on the phone and they were like, we just received a phone call from Greg Daniels and he's very upset.

Oh my God.

He said

that you purposely did a bad job today because you didn't like the scene where Pam is singing to the baby.

And I was like, what?

I didn't.

And basically, it was just Greg going to say that I was horrible.

Basically,

you were horrible in this scene.

You were like so bad that the only thing I can come up with is that you are trying to sabotage this out of the episode.

Yes, sabotage.

So I had to go to Greg and be like, Greg, I honestly, it's just that this is beyond my range as an actor.

Like, I don't have it.

I don't have it in me.

And we set it up and he made me reshoot it.

And he came to set and was like trying to get me to do it.

And then after that, he's like, okay, Jenna, I see you're really trying.

We'll just change it.

You can't do it.

You can't do it.

I said, Greg, I can't do it.

I have to say, it's kind of a compliment to your acting that he thought you could do it and chose not to.

I guess I'll take it as a compliment, but it's.

That's wild.

It's so nuts that like, yeah.

Can I say, I remember this so well.

So in the secret, there's a scene with you and John in the kitchen.

And he says, I told, I told Michael that I had a crush on you, but I don't anymore.

And you say, so you're going to be weird around me now.

And you did this thing with your eyebrows.

And I remember, it's like this, it's like a micro act.

It is like, and I remember it like when we, I remember when we shot it, when we were now, now safely in our video village, when we didn't correct everything that was happening.

And I was like, that's the best acting I'd ever seen.

Like literally, it was incredible.

Like it was so small.

It was so subtle.

And it like, I felt so much from it.

It was just like, again, at that point, I guess we had learned a little bit of subtext and and just the scene of like how much was unspoken between the two of you and what I was feeling from what you're remoting with just with your eyes.

It was like, it took my breath away.

It was the first time, it was the first time I'd worked on the show because it was also, it wasn't a comedic scene.

And it was like just being comfortable in a scene that like was just about Jim and Pam and was like a proper romantic scene and the will they, won't they of it.

And I was blown away by your acting.

I didn't call your manager at the time and say that you did a great job, but I think I maybe told you at the time.

I hope I did.

Well, thank you so much.

I appreciate it.

I remember you sobbing Video Village.

Yeah.

I had pulled a clip of my favorite scene from The Secret.

It's in the break room, and it's when Michael has just found out that he's the only person who knows that Jim has secret feelings for Pam.

And he's trying to.

talk to Jim about it, even though Jim doesn't want to talk about it.

And then Stanley walks in.

We listen to it.

This is my favorite scene.

Hey, what you getting?

I'm going with grape.

Ah, good stuff.

Good stuff.

See the game last night?

Which game?

Any of them.

So, what's 411?

Any updates on the P situation?

Oh, no, any of the P-A-M?

P-A.

Okay.

No, it's okay.

We're talking code.

What is?

Listen, Stanley, you know, how long does it take for you to pick out a soda?

I'm going to take off, actually.

All right.

Y'all, cool.

Psilocyte?

Peach iced tea.

You're going to hate it.

There's so many things in that.

And then Michael, for the rest of the episode, like puts his hair down like Jim drinks grape soda.

Yeah.

That's wonderful.

I think that was a Steve improv.

Peach iced, you're going to hate it.

It's so funny, just him trying to be cool.

Anytime he tries to be cool with Jim or with Ryan, it just makes me laugh.

Yeah, it's just very like dude, bro, like love.

Yeah.

I wanted to ask you guys about Michael's birthday because we hardly ever went on location, you know, and then you have like this dojo and the fight.

And then Michael's birthday, we go to this ice rink.

And I remember it was sort of a big deal.

There was a stunt guy that did all these pirouettes and then it would cut to Oscar as if it was Oscar doing all of them.

And I remember he came up to me and he wanted to teach me a trick.

So like, this is whatever.

This is a random thing that never made it in the episode.

But Matt captured all this content of me skating with this guy that's supposed to look like Oscar who kind of tossed me and like held me in the air up high.

It lives somewhere.

I don't know where, but

that was such a fun episode.

And of course, you know, Steve's wife, Nancy, is in that one.

Yeah.

What memories do you have from that episode?

I remember the suit that Michael is wearing.

Like a birthday suit.

It's like, so, it's like shiny.

It's pinstriped too.

Pinstriped.

Yeah.

He's like so proud of it.

And then also he gets lifted up on the chair kind of like horror style.

His head goes through the thing.

And I remember there was actually like Steve was like, I think they went a little too high and like dust was coming down and stuff that it was totally like, it was a quote unquote a stunt.

I remember seeing Steve ice skate for the first time.

I'd be like, oh, wow, that's, that's kind of wild.

What a cool thing that Michael Scott's great at something.

Yeah.

Yes.

There's this great runner of Talking Heads in the episode where Michael is describing his worst birthdays.

Amazing.

And he's comparing them to this birthday.

And there's a third one that made it into the Superfan episode.

I asked Sam if he would pull these talking heads of Michael's worst birthdays.

When I was seven,

my mother hired a pony and a cart to come to my house for all the kids.

And

I got a really bad rash from a pony.

And all the kids got to ride the pony and I had to go inside and my mother was rubbing cream on me for probably three hours and I never came outside.

And by the time I got out, the pony was already in the truck and around the corner.

So that was my worst birthday.

When I was 16,

I was supposed to go out on a date with a girl named Julie.

But there was another Michael in the class that she apparently thought the date was with.

So she went out with him on my birthday.

And she got him a cake at the restaurant.

And it wasn't even his birthday, but I heard about it the next day in school.

So

that was the worst birthday I think I ever had.

On my 20th birthday, my supposed best friend Sam Ambrose ditched me for his twin sister's Sweet 16 party.

And that was my worst birthday.

Until today.

You know, it's so funny.

Sam Ambrose is a comedy.

That's our

friend Sam Handel and Lauren Ambrose, the actress, are married.

So he

named the character Sam Ambrose.

But

that's one of those examples where like we spent probably like hours and hours trying to figure out how to do the talking head for Michael's worst birthday.

And then Steve Corell improvised

like those things were like, hey, Steve, like, just do your worst birthday.

And like, just came up with those things and like those end up in the episode.

He's so incredible.

These are the moments, though, you know, sometimes writers don't like actors, and sometimes writers love actors.

And this is one of those moments when it's just like, oh, wow, you made it better than we could.

We're still going to get the credit.

And you made the episode better.

It's funnier.

And you solved it the best.

As a young adult, finding the right path to your future can feel overwhelming.

It starts with Euro Up United's tuition-free job training program Career Pathways.

If you're without a bachelor's degree but have a high school diploma or GED, you can get skills-first training to succeed in the industries you're passionate about, all while earning a weekly educational stipend to offset basic expenses.

From there, you'll have access to internships and hands-on experiences with Fortune 500 companies.

And with Europe United's job placement services and personalized coaching and mentorship, you can put your knowledge, skills, and most importantly, confidence into practice.

Apply to Europe United today and take the first step toward achieving the career you want.

Visit Europe.org to learn more.

So you know Boarshead has been dedicated to crafting premium deli meats and cheeses for more than 120 years.

They know what they're doing.

And you're gonna love their Boarshead Sweet Bees Honey Barbecue Glazed Chicken Breast.

It's honey drizzled and barbecue sizzled.

It's got all the things.

It's so good.

I love some barbecue.

And are you ready for this?

It is slow roasted and crafted with layers of proprietary glaze and a zesty dry rub, then infused with a delicate sweet wildflower honey.

Boar's Head Sweet Bees Honey BBQ Glazed Chicken breast.

It is perfectly balanced.

It is all the flavors you want.

Barbecue and real hickory smoke.

You can get it sliced fresh at the deli.

Do you hear how excited I am about it?

Get me that sandwich right now.

I love it.

And it's made with wildflower honey, which just gives you that little bit of sweetness.

And then you've got barbecue.

You've got some smoked paprika, some garlic powder.

Come on, get me to the deli counter.

Try sweet bees today and experience the flavor of authentic barbecue at your local Boarshead deli counter.

Boarshead, committed to craft since 1905.

I would love to ask you guys which character on the office that you found was your favorite to write for.

I mean, obviously, I know Michael was like such an amazing character, but were there other characters that you would look forward to writing things for?

There's definitely some.

The Toby Pam stuff was small, but I was just re-watching it.

And like, it's so, Paul, the way you guys both reported is amazing, but just like a guy who is in love with, like, in love with, like, it's like the eighth story on the show, but he leaves.

He's like, I need to go get a camera.

And then, and then I want to get a picture of the two of us.

And then she's like, oh, I don't have a camera.

And then he's like, does that make you have a camera?

And then he like runs off.

That really made me laugh.

I mean, like that, the bench of actors was so deep.

I don't know.

I mean, there's amazing Ed stuff.

I can't think of anyone I wasn't excited to write for.

I mean, it just, it really depended, I guess, probably on the story or, or whatever it was.

It was just, it was so fun.

Yeah.

You don't realize at the time, but like, you know, you're spoiled.

You, you can, there's so many weapons that you can go to, and that's not normal on a show.

So it was endless.

It was amazing.

Was there ever anything that you pitched that never got to see the light of day that you were like, oh, I wish we had gotten to write that one story.

We worked really hard.

There's a, we called it the premonition, knows with

Erin.

And it was, she had this premonition that someone from the office on the drive home was going to get in a car accident and die.

And she wouldn't let anyone leave.

And then we just couldn't break it.

We could not figure out like,

well, yeah, it was, it was basically that, but that, you know, somebody says that and like.

most people roll their eyes because it's like okay this you know and you're right she's been right before this happened before and that she's been right before and so basically the office is split.

Like Jim and Pam, like Pam won't leave and Jim wants to leave.

And like, it basically was that like half the office believes that Erin, what if Erin's telling the truth and that or not telling the truth, but that if she can foresee the future?

And then the other half doesn't.

But it was just, it kind of became one of those things where it was like the premise of it was so fun.

And we got down the road on it, but we never quite, it wasn't just us, like that, we never quite cracked it.

I love that.

And I do think that Pam would want to stay just based on the fact that Pam believes in ghosts.

And like Jim's like, why do you believe in ghosts?

Who are you?

Gene and I also, we wrote a ton of talking heads.

I, you know, some of them maybe got shot, some of them didn't.

I think like all the writers kind of had like different slightly like for Michael, it's like Michael was a circle and people kind of like had their own little like lanes.

It was all kind of still within the character.

And I think we wrote kind of like the saddest, most pathetic version of him often.

And so a lot, we had a lot of stuff with like Michael's, like Michael went to his prom, but he was the limo driver.

And he was like playing, he was like playing cards or like dice with the other limo drivers, and they convinced him to go in.

And then there's another thing with Todd Pat.

It was a lot of like, just Michael went somewhere and like, he got beat up and it was in the papers.

Yeah, yeah.

But like, yeah, we had to convince him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it was like, yeah, we shot it.

Yeah.

It's true, though.

Like, different writers wrote different Michaels.

So like Mike Scherr, his Michael is almost in some ways the most noble version of Michael.

Like when you were just hoping he would like pull out a win, he would do the right thing.

And then he did in his own weird way, but he he did.

I feel like Mike wrote the best version of Michael, the best person.

And like Mindy wrote, Michael is kind of like he was in love with Ryan and was trying to, I don't know what, but just was like

very into Ryan or Jim in some ways.

But yeah, everyone kind of had a different Michael.

That is fascinating.

Oh, Jinx.

You know, you guys wrote something for me that was so much fun to play.

And I've never really, I don't really think I've ever told you how much fun I had doing it.

It's in New Boss with Idris Elba, and Angela, and Kelly clearly thinks like he's the Beesnees.

And it's pouring rain, and I go and get that scarf, and we're like fighting to like give the scarf.

And then I have this talking head, I have all this mascara that's like streaming down my cheeks.

And it was so much fun.

I mean, I normally am just sort of the sour gal in the back corner.

And to just have that much fun to play in an episode.

Anyway, I just loved it.

And I don't know if I ever thanked you guys for that great scene.

It's really fun when a character is kind of, you think you know who someone is and then you find a new color on that character.

It's always the most fun.

I think like when we first got to the show,

I was so blown away by the way that the room was approaching Dwight because I think Dwight, like.

on the surface you think he's like oh he's this guy and he's like he's robotic and he's anal and he's like all he wants to do is please Michael.

And then it's like, oh no, like Dwight, like the ladies love Dwight.

A certain type of lady loves Dwight.

And you know what I mean?

And he loves like the music he loves.

Like, I don't know.

Like, he was so much rounder as a character in such a great way than I like imagined as a fan of like the first season.

You guys wrote two of the cringiest episodes of The Office.

One that people love to watch more than any episode and one that sometimes people avoid when they re-watch.

We've gotten a lot of mail.

There's one people are like, I have to skip it.

I have to skip it.

So, of course, the first one is dinner party.

My God, you guys, you wrote dinner party.

People know every line.

People know that episode.

It is so wild.

That's an example of finding another color to our character.

So the scene where Jim tries to leave Pam at the dinner party.

That was, that's like a, you know, because Jim was always noble and, you know, you know, just Jim and Pam, they love each other.

But we all know in life, in reality, that things don't always go that way.

And sometimes you have to be a little bit selfish.

Mike sure never would have let Jim leave Pam.

But

Lee and Gene were like, all right, we're out of here.

I'm bouncing.

This is the arc of our not understanding subtext to overusing subtext, where it's like, there won't be another party, you know,

you know, or whatever.

So we went the other way with it.

But yeah, that's that, that's an example of showing another side of

the character have you seen the peacock superfan of dinner party

all of the scenes are just a little bit more it's so fantastic i mean you know i obviously like some of the episodes as they aired originally that's how i want to remember them but i think because we love dinner party so much we went and watched the superfan one and it is it's delicious i remember the most painful moment maybe of my creative life was trying so hard to show the the extended version because remember they were doing those

that seem like super size, super size.

Super size.

Yeah.

And I know, like, it was just the timing wasn't right.

But I always thought the best version of dinner party was the one that was slightly 27 minutes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Exactly.

27 minutes.

And that killed me that we had to cut stuff out.

Well, you should go watch the super fan, just like, you know,

just for fun, because I think a lot of those moments that you loved and wanted in are back in.

Can I tell a dinner party anecdote?

Yes.

Yes.

So The Secret we wrote in three days or four days, and dinner party was the opposite.

Gene and I were staying in New York together, obviously, and it was kind of like a break.

So we had, I think, like a month off from the show between seasons, and everyone was assigned a script.

And the room was

competitive.

And like, you, you know, you wanted to kind of have like, you know, you wanted to have the best episodes.

So we worked really, really hard.

We had some feature work we were supposed to be doing.

And we spent, I think, three weeks writing dinner party.

And we handed the script in.

We were really happy with it.

We spent three weeks writing dinner party when we should have been working on a movie movie script that people were paying us to write.

Yeah, absolutely.

So you basically, you know, you're sitting in the writer's room and the other writers are reading your script in front of you.

And if you like a joke, you check it.

And if you don't, you kind of like bark an X.

And you hear people laugh or not laugh.

And so you're just kind of like, you're sitting in the room as all of these people that you really like and respect.

At this point, they're our friends, not our enemies.

And we're sitting there and you hear someone go, huh?

And you're like, what, what page are you on?

What do you, what's that laugh?

And you're just like desperate to hear, like, you know, what, what people are responding to.

Wait, I have to stop you because I've never heard this before.

Wait, so you sit around a conference table and you just like read it to yourself, though, not out loud.

Everyone's just like reading your script in the same room.

That would give me heart palpitation.

That's the worst.

And so some people go to their office.

Some people would like sit on the couch.

But you know, it's all happening at the same time.

They've all

like, hey, everyone read dinner party.

And then, you know,

in 45 minutes, let's sit around the table and like, let's start talking about how we're going to rewrite it or whatever.

Oh my gosh.

Okay, go on, go on.

It's so stressful.

We're getting, we're getting some laughs, but it's like, it's pretty tense.

And then we also sent it into the network and we get on a call.

So the writer's room, I was like, people seem to like it, but I was kind of disappointed by the reaction because like, I thought we'd done a nice job.

So then we get on the phone with the network.

So it's me, Greg, and Gene are in Greg's office.

And I can't remember who was on from the network.

And it's, hey, so we got a chance to read dinner party.

Like, what a fun script.

It was Terry.

Terry, what a fun script.

And Greg says, oh, thank you.

And she goes,

it's pretty dark.

And Greg goes, yeah.

And doesn't say anything else.

And then she goes, you know,

it's pretty dark.

And Greg goes, yeah.

And then she goes, it's pretty dark.

And Greg goes, yeah.

Oh, my God.

And he goes, and then he goes, okay, do you have anything else?

And then she was so flustered.

And she goes, no, he goes, okay, thanks.

And hung up.

And Greg just didn't want it.

Like, that was the first indication that Greg really liked the the script.

That, like, he just didn't give them any like.

Yeah, he didn't take the bait or no conversation.

Yeah.

He said, oh, like, he didn't say, like, oh, let us look at it.

We're going to pull it back.

This was at a time.

Also, Greg was arguably the most powerful person at NBC.

The Office was the biggest show they had.

They did not have a lot going on, especially with comedies.

Maybe they also had 30 Rock, but he also had Parks and Rec that was about to get going.

So no one could really tell him no.

Wow.

Which was great for us.

And then the table read of dinner party, again we thought like the script was pretty good and it started and the cold open of dinner party is there's some good jokes in it but like it's a little bit of a slow burn until you get to the actual dinner to the condo and i remember sitting there and i was like oh my god like i thought this was a good script and like that like there weren't any laughs for the first few minutes and i was like we're gonna get inspired and then the table read just kept building yes that's my memory and building and it was just like People couldn't get their lines out.

And of course, I wasn't able to enjoy it, but like, I was told afterwards that it went well.

And also at the end of it, the table read had gone so well that like the rewrite, there was basically no rewrite.

And so like our first draft is essentially what was shot.

And also because like the table read had gone so well, like we all got to leave early.

Like usually it's like table read goes poorly and then you like, you're going to be there until midnight.

And it was like, we did a good job.

And so then

everyone got to leave early, which was very, which was a good feeling.

Yeah.

The table read was deep.

I think my, I don't speak for Lee, but for me, it was like my high point in entertainment.

That was like the the best moment.

I remember I was sweated through my entire shirt.

I was soaking.

And by the time in the script, when the cops come and Dwight says something to them, and he goes, you know, not now, Dwight.

Like, they already knew him on a first name basis.

And the room erupted.

I was as happy.

That's probably the happiest other than, you know, my daughter being born, probably the happiest I've ever been.

Oh, and then the next thing, I remember Greg said to us, I'll never forget, he goes, how did you do that?

Like coming from Greg.

Oh, yeah, how did you do that?

That was was amazing.

That was the bat.

We were walking on air.

And it was, it was, you know, kind of lived off that compliment for months.

Oh, yeah.

And then we had to stop.

And that was like a big bummer.

We had to just stop and picket our own set.

We shot like two talking heads and then went on strike.

Yes and picketed our own set.

Yeah, you did.

I remember.

Insane.

Yeah.

Okay, so you guys also wrote Scott's Tots.

That's the episode people sometimes can't watch again.

Can I just say something?

We must discuss.

Yes, coaching.

I just want to shift some of the blame to Paul Lieberstein, who had the idea, but just blame him also.

We get a lot of shit.

But, you know, Paul also had something to do with this.

And also, BJ directed it.

Yes.

BJ had something to do with this.

So I just want other people to also share the blame with us.

It's so brilliant.

And it has one of my favorite Michael talking heads in it, where he says, of all the empty promises I've made in my life,

this one is probably the most generous.

It's so good.

And it is, you know, we've re-watched the whole thing, and I don't think it's the cringiest episode.

The one that is hardest for me to watch is Prince Family Paper when Dwight and Michael destroy that lovely family paper.

Father and son, they're like his granddaughter is the outgoing message.

You reach France Family Paper.

Yeah, that one, that one does me in.

I just think scott's tots is amazing prince family paper is based on um that happened to my sister she was what what yeah that's based on a true story my sister was working i think for walgreens walgreens and she was in new orleans like i think she was like scouting for a new walgreens i don't remember exactly what but she basically like that was her job like figure out like you know where are there opportunities to put walgreens and there was this other drugstore and she's like, oh God, you know, like, this is a place that if a Walgreens went there, it would totally put them out of business.

And then her rental car got a flat tire and they helped her change the tire, the family.

Yeah.

It's even worse

than that.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

And I'm freaking, she was so guilty.

She still talks about it.

And so, yeah, that was what that episode was about.

Wow.

Oh, God.

Terrible.

Okay.

I also want to talk about Leo and Gino for a second, because so not only did you guys write and direct, but now you're actors on the set.

And, you know, there's a deleted scene for the Halloween episode in season two

and it's really sort of the first time you see leo and gino it didn't make it into the episode you guys but i i want to set it up for you and i want to play the clip so michael's getting into the elevator leo and gino are putting a you know a big boxed refrigerator into the elevator and they see the camera and they decide they're going to interact with the camera and i i want you to hear it

guys could you take the freight elevator please hey you want to see a really messy show?

You know what?

Follow us.

That's my foot.

How many are off?

One, ass, ass, ass, ass.

I'm off, guys.

Ass, ass, ass, ass, ass, ass, ass, ass.

Well done, guys.

How did that not end up in the show?

That's kind of that's kind of

like you want a real show, follow us.

Ass, ass, ass,

in our defense, we never asked for that, we never wanted it.

This was forced upon us.

We were very much against it.

We did not want this.

But did you have fun?

No,

no, No, it was terrifying.

Are you kidding?

Acting with you guys?

That's terrifying.

Also, it was every time every time that Leo and Gino came on to set, the looks that we would get from,

I feel like just from John, no, from a bunch of the actors.

But I remember John in particular just being like, I'm in the background of a scene so that we

can act.

Okay, great.

Okay, sure.

So

I always felt bad because I wanted to say, like, we didn't do this.

The other writers did this.

Like, we're not campaigning to get Leo and Gino more screen time.

We did not want to be acting.

The other thing in that ass, ass, ass scene is, I was so terrified.

Gene has the line.

All I have to say is ask because I was, I would, there's no way I could have remembered anything at that point.

And so, thank God, Gene took the line.

And so, all I had to say was ask because I could remember that.

I've since come into my own as an actor, but like at the time, that was really tricky for me.

You guys also directed two episodes in season five you directed michael scott paper company and then in season six you directed the lover can you talk about moving into directing and particularly with michael scott paper company you established michael scott paper company so what was it like to shoot in that tiny room and did you get to be a part of designing that room yeah yeah um well you know with directing the writers were on set for their episodes and sometimes you're on set for other people's people's episodes as a writer as well.

So we knew our way around the set.

We felt very comfortable.

And,

you know, the show had a set look.

It wasn't like we were reinventing.

Occasionally, a director would come in and

maybe go 10% one way or another.

But for the most part, the show had an established look.

So there wasn't much, you know, probably wanted to show off a little bit with shots, but there wasn't much of that.

But like

the Wayne Gretzky quote, you know, you missed 100% of the shots.

That's Jeans.

Oh, sorry.

no it's not mine that's justin spitcher's oh yeah there you go it's amazing i have to get that's that's an amazing joke yeah yeah but that's a that's a thing where you know as you start set designing like because i just watched that episode the other night and like the number of times that you see that in shots like because the first time you see it i was like oh i god why do people talk about that you can barely see it you like you got a blink and you miss it it must have been a screen grab and then it's like oh no no that room is so small you see it a million times and also like the pipes and you're sitting down by the pipes it's like that people are like

the bathroom upstairs yes

that room is brutal and we have to do a new opening title sequence that's right yeah oh that's right and i know you were talking about like the fun of pam and toby but my favorite relationship to play like one of those like deep cut relationships is pam and ryan there's so many good lines in that there's so many good lines

that is one of my absolute favorite runners in our rewatch just how much they hate each other.

Ryan with the blonde hair.

Ryan with the blonde hair.

And when he's on the phone and you can just hear all his conversations and he's like, I don't know, in New York, she'd be a six, but here maybe she's a seven.

And then the other guy is my former boss.

He's just like, wait, I'm right here.

Clearly about me.

And then he also, she doesn't want to like watch him.

upload his photos anymore because of the topless women.

She's like, I don't really want to look at your friend's boobs.

And he's like, you know what?

You could be hot too if you just made a little effort.

Like, it's just so good.

So funny.

He says that the blonde hair is natural.

It's the sun.

Yes.

She's like, sure.

Yeah, sure.

It is the sun.

Okay.

He also has a great line in that one.

And I know, I mean, Justin Spitzer wrote this episode, but there's that great line in there where, you know, they need to get rid of a person because it's just, there's not enough room in there.

And so Ryan says, why don't we get rid of the person with the least education?

He's such a dick.

He's such a dick.

He's such a dick.

And BJ is so funny.

But I remember being in that little room and it was really difficult.

I mean, there's a whole scene where we have to talk about the four corners of the room.

And you manage to show all the corners.

It's very impressive.

There's also that amazing moment, Jenna, when you go up to see Idris trying to get your job back and you can't.

And then you're like, well, maybe I can come back as a salesperson.

I now have experience doing that.

And he's like, no.

He was so good.

Oh, Oh my gosh.

He was really fun.

Yeah.

Really remember the buzz on the lot when he was coming, when he was there, like everyone, all the women were so excited.

I've never seen anything like it.

Really made all the men kind of feel like, hey, what the hell?

Like, everyone was, all the women were, I mean, everyone, every female who worked on that, on that show was

because he was such a charmer.

He was a charmer.

Well, he was like, he would give you compliments.

Yes.

No, this was even before he came.

This was just his arrival, before he got there the idea

the anticipation yes yes i also loved though that his character charles was not like won over by jim oh like that new dynamic was so fun to watch jim wearing the tuxedo yeah his first day and trying to explain a prank to a guy who has no sense of humor was so good and then that's also the uh gene that's the rundown episode ah where he's like he doesn't know what a rundown is yes yeah what is a a rundown?

That is also the episode where, isn't that episode where Mindy keeps coming into Charles's office and saying, Charles, you wanted me?

Yes.

And that's also the one where Michael is introducing everyone and gives really personal details.

Like, so embarrassing.

That was also, that's Ellie Kemper's first episode.

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

And that has Country Road, where Dwight and Andy are both.

Dwight and Andy have now become friends.

That dynamic is so funny, but they're both hitting on her in their own ways.

And then they start playing Country Road and they're trying to impress her.

The end of the scene is the two of them are now just trying to impress each other.

And so into playing together that they forget that she's there.

And she kind of awkwardly has to get out of the break room.

They're just playing to each other.

It's so funny.

Toby knocks on the glass.

Yeah, Toby knocks on the glass.

Yeah.

Can I play a clip from The Lover?

Yes.

This is my favorite scene in The Lover.

And it is not when Pam finds out that Michael is dating her mom.

That's my favorite scene because you're going, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I loved doing that scene, but my personal favorite scene is when Jim finds out that Michael is dating Pam's mother.

Here it is.

I have recently taken a lover.

Well, that's great.

Congratulations.

Who's the lucky lady?

Pam's mom.

What?

Pam's mom, Helene.

Remember from your wedding?

You're messing with me.

About what?

You did not have sex with Pam's mom.

Oh, big time.

What kind of car does she drive?

She drives a green cam right

and the seats go all the way down.

All the way down.

Oh my god.

Oh my god.

What?

Okay, never tell Pam.

And then secondly.

Good, a pact.

A pact.

Although I may have to break it tonight when Helena and I tell Pam over dinner.

You alright?

Oh my God.

Hey, Jim.

Not now, Toby, my God.

Get the hell out of here, idiot.

What did I do?

Okay, as far as dinner tonight, cancel that.

And please, for both of our sakes, never, ever, ever see her again.

I think you're underestimating, Pam.

I think, more than anything, she wants me to be happy.

No, not more than anything.

Okay.

I have a good thing with the mom.

Don't call me.

She's right on my way home from work.

Then take a different way home, man.

All right.

I'll take surface treats.

The last thing in the world I would want to do is upset Pam.

Okay.

So we're good.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

You guys, what's so amazing is that then later, later in season six in the cover-up, which is also your episode that you wrote, it's your, the last episode you guys wrote for the show.

Michael's so upset because he thinks that his new girlfriend might be cheating on him.

And he's sitting in the kitchen and he's eating the mayo and black olives.

And at that point, Pam is listing all of the women he's ever dated and she says, Helene.

And Michael goes, Helene?

And she goes, yes, Michael, Helene, my mother

that you dated.

And he's like, oh, yes, of course.

Helene, yes, loved her.

And kind of rolls his eyes.

And it's just

such an amazing callback that after all that,

he has now just forgotten Helene.

It's so funny.

The lover is,

I really, I'm very, very proud of that.

And it's like, I mean, also like the Aaron stuff with like

leche.

Yes.

You bring the, what's it called?

It's so funny.

Yes.

You bring the candies back.

Yeah.

Yes.

And she won't put them out until she gets Michael's permission.

Right.

Yes.

Some weird turf for it at front reception.

Yeah.

Well, you guys, that's you guys coming back from vacation.

That's blind guy McSqueezy.

Yeah.

Yes.

Blind guy McSqueezy.

Exactly.

So amazing.

So in wrapping up about your experience on the office,

when you look back at that time on your life, do you have like a general takeaway or a most prominent memory or

something that you take with you from that time?

I mean, for us, this was like film school, you know, because Greg gave the writers so much freedom

that we really learned every aspect of how to make something, right?

From prep to me with department heads to like the sound mix.

I mean, I don't know what it's like on other shows, but this was, I didn't realize how rare that was um

to be able to to learn all that and you know it's five years it's longer than college and where we were young and those were really informative years for us and i think we became much better writers because of that experience i think for me too is it just felt alive like every day felt uh

it always felt big like we're always like a little bit behind.

And so you're just like, you're just kind of like coming together and you're just like sitting around with like the, I mean, you think think about that writer's room it's like it's a murderer's row of the best comedy writers of the last 20 years and just every day you're just like telling stories and making each other laugh and then all of a sudden like you'd go off and you know everyone would go off to their offices and write talking heads or write a scene and sometimes you'd read them aloud and you're like you know you're praying that your thing is going to be the thing that gets the biggest laugh and the show was just kind of at a moment.

Like, I remember I would take the train from New York to Boston for Thanksgiving and you just like walk, like walk back to my seat and kind of on a plane.

And it was right when like video iPods started.

And you just like saw everyone was watching the office.

Like you'd literally do it and you'd see like five people would be watching something that you had written like four weeks earlier.

And so it was so immediate.

And I don't know, it was just, it was fun.

I mean, it was really, it was really stressful.

I, I think, um,

it was an amazing thing that Greg was able to pull off.

Like, I felt, and I know Gene did and all the writers did, like, you felt like the show was yours.

The show is Greg's, but it felt like it was all of ours.

Like the amount of like dedication and passion that we all felt for it and how much we wanted to get it right and do right by you guys and by the fans was huge.

Like it felt like, oh my God, like, how are we doing the proposal?

Like, what, you know, all these things.

I mean, particularly with Jim and Pam, there was so much of like, we were just like pouring, everyone was just pouring so much of themselves into it.

Well,

I personally think the best seasons of The Office are seasons two through six.

They happen to be the seasons that you guys were on the writing staff.

Do it that way,

I don't know.

Exactly.

Draw the conclusion that you will draw.

Yeah.

This was so wonderful catching up with you guys.

You know, we also want to talk about this show that is phenomenal that you worked on and you created jury duty.

It's so great.

And it won a Peabody Award.

And you've got a season two.

What can you share?

Can you share like anything you want to share about it?

Because it is so wonderful.

Yeah, so I want to say this show is phenomenal.

And it's a documentary, but it's a fake documentary.

And there's one real person, and everybody else is an actor.

Right.

And you are documenting a jury duty, a case.

Their one person on the jury that isn't in on it.

You really follow.

And you have James Marsden is also, you guys, I also, I just got my jury summons, by the way,

this week.

So, how are you?

Because the show was such a huge hit and so many people loved it.

How do you do a season two of it?

That's been my question.

How do you convince another person that they're part of a documentary on jury duty?

The second season will not be, it will not be a jury.

Okay.

So, that's how you do it.

No, but I think that, you know, with

season one, it was a,

there were, I think, 4,000 people, you know, answered a craigslist ad a craigslist that you guys put yeah oh my gosh and so it's a you know it's a really involved process and you know todd shulman who's one of the executive producers and dave bernad who's another ep you know they've worked a lot in this space todd worked for sasha baron cohen for like 15 years so you know me me gene dave and todd were like the ones who kind of you know we're the beginning of that show and Those guys really, you know, had a sense of how to pull one of these things off.

I mean, it's, it's wild.

And the thing that Todd always said was the idea that that anyone would imagine that all of like all of this is fake and all of it is for them is like too much for like the human brain to take right and so you know it's just there's so much careful preparation and rehearsing and casting that goes into it and you know so much of it too it's like the idea with that show is that you're never punching down the joke is never at the expense of ronald right i think that you know again a lot of lessons that were kind of taken from the office like you root for those characters in jury duty you like that world you want to see what they're doing week to week.

And at the center of it is a really appealing guy who kind of wants to do the right thing, who uh doesn't want to get you know caught up in the gossip and you know forms real friendships.

And those friendships are real.

Like, that's the

special sauce of the show, I think, is that the

dynamics, like people are playing characters, but the friendships between the actors and Ronald that was authentic, and those friendships have gone on to this day.

You're the actor that you cast as the judge, and Barren Holtz's dad.

Yeah, that's like Baron Holtz's dad.

Yeah.

What?

Yes.

Who he was a lawyer.

So we had like courtroom experience, but like all of it, everybody is so convincing and real.

It was so brilliant that you came up with the idea that, like, okay, we're only going to be able to pull this off if there's some reason we have to sequester everyone, which is so great.

Um, because then we got not just courtroom stuff, but we got like behind the scenes stuff.

Yeah.

You guys, it was just a chef's kiss.

Well, we are so thrilled for you guys.

We're huge fans.

So will you tell people where they can watch it?

Because they can stream it.

Yeah, you can stream it on Amazon Prime.

Just type in jury duty into the search.

And when is season two coming out?

I think much like season one, it will just kind of, it will just appear.

Okay.

Ooh, mystery, intrigue.

I like it.

Just check in on Amazon every day.

Okay.

That's all.

I will.

I will.

We're deep in the edit on it now, and

I think it's going to be great.

It's really, it's different from season one, but it's very exciting.

That is so great.

I cannot wait.

And then, Angela, will you share with everyone why you think of Lee every time you go to bed?

Well, you know, I got Lee and your wife.

You guys designed this duvet cover.

And you know, when you have to change a duvet, it's like such a pain in the ass to put the comforter back in it.

This is brilliant because you just lay it flat flat and it all zips in.

You just zip in the duvet cover over your comforter.

It's so nice and it's made, it's like got such nice quality and it's got, mine is white with like the little blue stitching.

I mean, Lee, I'm your, I'm your biggest fan of your comforter.

I love it.

I mean,

the natural, the natural progression from working on the office, of course, is to start your own bedding company.

And so I had an idea to

putting on a duvet cover was so annoying.

And so I came up with what I thought was a good fix.

I got a patent.

Like during COVID, I partnered up with a woman whose family had a manufacturing plant in Pakistan.

And we started making samples.

And I would like go to dinner parties during COVID, like masked up and like bring like four samples and have people touch fabrics and zippers and all that stuff.

And then we launched the company.

It's been around for two and a half years now.

And we go to nuvehome.com and we have a we have a whole thing.

Yeah.

So that's why, that's why you don't get invited to dinner parties anymore?

Well, I think it's a very attractive proposition to, you know, to show up at someone's house with bedding.

Maybe, maybe leave it.

Maybe it just kind of brings

a little, you know, yeah, other people were like making bread during the pandemic, but you're like showing up with like a duvet cover.

I think people thought I like lost, I completely lost my mind because I would like, they're like, what are you working on?

I was like, well, it's interesting you ask.

Basically, and I would show that I would use my hands to demonstrate how the new Bay works instead of working on my script.

So it was like, it was a good procrastination.

But Lee, the thing is, is like when you have a vision for solving a problem that has gone unsolved, how do you ignore that?

You can't ignore that.

Yeah, I agree.

You have to follow that thread.

Well, I legitimately think that it's all storytelling.

And so, yeah, exactly.

There was a problem and like, here's the solve and there's a story around it.

My wife came up with the tadline, less struggle, more snuggle, which is great.

I love it.

Yeah.

And Gene, have you invented anything, Gene?

Oh, my God.

What haven't I invented?

Yeah, well, I really feel less than now because I need to come up with some kind of, you know, it doesn't have to be a home, some kind of industrial masking tape, something that people wouldn't really picture me.

Coming up with.

Like, you're going to come up with like the new whiteout, whatever that is.

Exactly.

Yeah.

My God.

Yeah.

Well, thank you guys so much for taking the time to talk with us today and for always being so supportive of the podcast.

We love your episodes.

We love you guys and we're here for you.

If you ever need to shout out in any way, thank you.

Yeah, this was a blast.

Thank you guys.

It's been great.

Thank you guys.

Really like going down memory lane.

Well, that was a delight.

They are so fun.

I loved catching up with them.

You know, after we did our interview, they quickly emailed both of us to thank us for having them on the podcast.

They're just classy stand-up fellas.

They really are.

I just love them so much.

And

I missed them.

Like, I realized when we were talking to them how much I missed them.

And I have run into Lee Eisenberg several times.

We live, I think, kind of close to each other in the same area of Los Angeles and we hit up some of the same restaurants, but I hadn't seen Gene in so long.

Same.

Yeah.

And you guys, we will put swipe ups to all their things, including Lee and his wife's amazing nouveau bed cover.

Yeah.

And yeah, we hope you have a great week.

I just got one.

It's wonderful.

It's wonderful.

It is so soft.

I know.

And it's really pretty and it's easy to use.

It's well made.

I love this chapter of his life.

I do too.

All right, everyone, thanks for listening and we will talk to you next week.

We'll see you then.

Thank you for listening to Office Ladies.

Office Ladies is a presentation of Odyssey and is produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey.

Our executive producer is Cassie Jerkins.

Our audio engineer is Sam Kiefer and our associate producer is Ainsley Bebico.

Odyssey's executive producers are Jenna Wise-Furman and Leah Rhys Dennis.

Office Ladies is mixed and mastered by Chris Basil.

Our theme song is Rubber Tree by Craig Bratton.

That's the sound of the fully electric Audi Q6 e-tron and the quiet confidence of ultra-smooth handling.

The elevated interior reminds you this is more than an EV.

This is electric performance redefined.