An Interview with Kathy Bates

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I'm Jenna Fisher and I'm Angela Kinsey.

We were on the office together and we're best friends.

And now we're doing the Ultimate Office Lovers podcast just for you.

Each week we will dive deeper into the world of the office with exclusive interviews, behind-the-scenes details, and lots of VFF stories.

We're We're the Office Lady 6.0.

Hello.

Hi there.

We are so excited because today

we get to share our interview with Kathy Bates.

Kathy Flippin' Bates.

We got to Zoom with Kathy Bates, lady.

I'm still kind of pinching myself about it.

I still, yeah, me too.

Like even afterwards, I was like, we just spent over an hour.

Yeah.

We talked for so long with Kathy Bates.

Yes.

You guys know that Kathy Bates appeared in eight episodes of The Office over season six and seven.

She was Sabre CEO Joe Bennett, and she shares some really fun memories about her time on the show.

I mean, you know, she's just a legend.

We are so fortunate that we got to work with her, have this amazing conversation with her.

She has won an Academy Award, two Emmy Awards, two Golden Globe Awards, and two Screen Actors Guild Awards.

She is currently starring in the new CBS series, Matlock.

It's a huge hit, and I'm sure she's going to add more awards to that shelf.

Oh, for sure.

I love Matlock.

Me too.

We both started watching it.

I'm watching it.

It is so good.

It had me from the minute, like that first scene in the coffee shop.

Oh, my gosh.

The pilot is one of the best pilots I've seen.

I told her that, too.

Yeah.

Well, we want to share a little bit about her new series.

Kathy Bates plays a wealthy retired lawyer named Madeline Kingston, and she returns to practicing law as a way to seek justice for the death of her daughter, Ellie, who died as a result of the opioid epidemic.

But now you don't find that out till the end.

Of the pilot.

Yeah.

Yes, that's right.

When we meet her, we meet her in her fake identity as a sort of like needy widow named Maddie Matlock.

Who had like a crappy ex-husband.

Yes, and she's raising her grandson on her own.

And she is raising her grandson, but not on her own because her husband's still living.

Stay with us.

And her husband is nice.

And her husband is great.

Stay with us.

And she gets a job at the law firm that she believes has hid evidence that could have saved her daughter's life.

Mm-hmm.

And the whole pilot is sort of her sneaking her way into the law firm.

And she ends up in the big conference room meeting and she blows them away.

It's a very badass moment.

And they decide to give her like a two weeks temporary hire to see how she's going to shake out.

Yeah, kind of test run.

So she's in.

She's very excited.

I just loved this conference room scene.

They're all having this meeting and they're in litigation with this other company and they're trying to figure out like, what would this company be willing to settle at?

Right.

What would they be willing to settle at?

And all of a sudden, like from the back of the room, you hear her be like, I know the number they're willing to settle at.

And I'll tell you what it it is if you give me a job and everyone's like who is this lady right where did she come from

and then she goes on to explain how she found out the number they're willing to settle for and it's much higher than this law firm thought i actually thought we should listen because i loved it so much yeah it's a great scene here it is let's avoid traps then how do you know the number well you see there's this funny thing that happens when women age we become damn near invisible oh not that i'm complaining I had my moment in the sun.

Plus, it's useful because nobody sees us coming.

That's how I got through your security several times.

And it's also how I knew that Peabody's counsel grabs coffee and updates his client between 8:15 and 8.25.

What's the number?

Am I hired?

No one is hired without a two-week trial.

What's their ceiling?

$23 million, which means I just made you $4 million.

Do I still need a two-week trial?

It's so good.

So good.

But I think what I like about the show is how,

you know, people doubting you or people not believing in you or people not seeing you, like that can be really hard, but you can also turn it to your advantage

and make it work for you.

And I really like that.

You know, there's a thing about this character that reminded me of something Phyllis said to you.

Yes.

Years ago.

Yes, me too.

Yes.

She knew all the scoop happening on the set.

She always knew all the best gossip.

All the best gossip.

But she wasn't a gossip.

She was not chatty.

She did not share it.

And Jenna has shared this before on the podcast.

But one time Jenna was like, Phyllis, how do you know everything?

And she goes, well, when you're invisible.

You know, people are

saying stuff around you.

She's like, I think people don't notice me.

Yeah.

I hear it all.

Yeah.

Well, Angela, you have a Matlock fun fact to share share with us.

I do.

Rain Wilson and Melora Hardin both guest starred in the original Matlock series.

And Linda Pearl, aka Helene Beasley, played Charlene Matlock in 23 episodes of the original series.

A little office Matlock connection there.

Yeah.

Well, something else about Kathy Bates is that she and I are both breast cancer survivors.

Kathy is actually a two-time cancer survivor.

Kathy was diagnosed with ovarian cancer in 2003 and breast cancer in 2012.

After being treated for breast cancer, she developed lymphedema, and she is now the spokesperson of the Lymphatic Education and Research Network.

And she talked with us about that as well.

I really appreciated getting to talk with her about this.

When you are a cancer patient, there's a language that goes with it.

I say to my other breast cancer ladies, like, we speak cancer.

And so I got to kind of speak that language with her a little bit and feel really heard.

She was so kind.

She was very kind and thoughtful.

And one of the biggest takeaways from just getting a chance to talk to her for me was how committed she is to making a difference and to helping others.

And I really admired her for that.

Yeah, I really admire her too.

You know, she's talked about this desire to be useful.

And her character talks about that on Matlock, Matlock, being useful.

And that's something that I felt with my own journey.

If I could just make this somehow useful,

it keeps me going.

I really identified with that when she talked about that.

But guys, it was just an honor to have worked with her and to have her on the podcast.

We're going to take a quick break and then our interview with Kathy Bates.

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Hi,

how are you?

Hello, thank you.

Who's this puppy on your lap?

This is Zelda.

Hi, Zelda.

Yeah, she's in a licking mode.

I don't know why.

Hi, how are you guys?

So good.

It's so fun to get to see you again after all these years.

I know.

It's been,

let's see, I think I did the show in 11, like 12 years ago.

Yeah.

Yeah.

12, 13 years ago.

It's been a long time.

It's been a long time.

A lot of life has happened.

Yes, indeed, it has.

How are you guys?

We're good.

We're loving this new job of podcasting.

Kathy, I only got dressed on the top.

Look at this.

Just got my pajama pants on the bottom.

I didn't even get dressed.

I'm still in bed.

You are a master podcaster then.

Already.

And we're basically in our closets here.

This is a closet.

I'm in a closet.

That's how we do it.

Kathy, thank you so much for for joining us today.

We are so excited to talk with you about the office, about your new show, Matlock.

We are huge fans of Matlock.

Thank you.

Yes, we are loving it, Kathy.

Yeah.

And we also want to talk about your work with the Lymphatic Education and Research Network.

Yes.

Do you mind if we start with the office?

No, I don't mind at all.

Let's begin.

Okay.

I'll kick us off with our first question.

And it's one we we ask all of our guests that were on the office.

And it's, how did you get your job on the office?

I think they just offered it to me.

I was very lucky.

I had not seen the show that much, but I watched a great deal of it when I was preparing for the show.

And everyone was so brilliant and so effortless.

You guys, I don't know how you did it.

I felt like when I was doing it, I was really running to catch up and it was a learning curve.

I don't know if it was like that for you guys when you started working on the show, but working with the different cameras and the level and,

you know, the comedy that you guys did, I felt that I was really

trying to get the feel of that and trying to do.

I always felt after I did an episode that I wasn't sure if I'd really done it the best I could.

That's so interesting.

I mean, our perspective

was that you were nailing it.

Like from the get-go.

Like when you walked in as Joe Bennett, I would have thought you'd been Joe Bennett your whole life.

Oh, really?

Yes.

Yeah, it was such a fully realized character from the beginning.

Wow.

Well, I think I was nervous because you guys do the comedy so well.

And I don't think of myself as a comedian and that you worked with the cameras so well.

Was that a learning curve for you?

I mean, did you, when you started out on it, did you, you you had done when did you start doing it

the camera yes well the camera was part of my audition yes same

so

from even the audition process they were wanting me to relate to or not relate to the camera throw looks to the camera and

i just studied the british version to prepare for my audition to watch because that was such a new idea And also, the idea not just that you would relate to the camera, but that you would be embarrassed that the camera picked up on something that maybe you didn't want it to.

Kathy, I remember I was really nervous about how to interact with the camera in our pilot episode.

You know, the supporting cast, we were just the background, you know, it was a real lesson in patience, and you just had to wait for that moment, you know, when you finally got to have a little interaction.

But we spent so much time in the background and my nose was itching so bad one day.

And I thought, oh, I can't scratch it because I'm on camera.

That's weird.

And I was, oh, God, I wanted to scratch it so bad.

And I went up to Ken Kwapas, our director, and he must have thought I was like so silly.

I said, Ken, my nose was really itching.

And that last take and I scratched it and I'm so sorry.

And he was like, Angela, you are living a life.

Live a life.

And the camera captures what it captures.

If your nose itches, scratch it.

And that was sort of an eye-opening moment for me about how to just be in the background.

Yeah.

One of the episodes that I think I wish I had prepared for first was when Joe comes in and starts talking about the printers.

You know, I would like to have gone back and done that and really gone to town with it.

But the other ones, I really loved working with, or I mean, Corell, Steve Corell, I couldn't get over what a fantastic actor and improvisationalist he is.

So for me, it was great to be around people like him and John and a whole bunch of the guys and gals.

It just

to try and learn from them how they do what they do because it's invisible.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Yeah, it does.

You don't feel like you're watching someone act when you watch Steve.

Like, I never do.

I always believed him.

He just is such a natural in whatever role he puts on.

I don't see him acting.

I didn't see him as DuPont.

Oh, in Foxcatcher.

That's right.

He was nominated for an Academy Award.

Yes.

Yes.

I was watching it with a friend and we were in about 15 minutes and he said, you know who that is?

I said, no, who is that?

He said, that's Steve Carell.

I said, you've got to be kidding me.

I can't believe that's Steve Carell.

I mean, he was just, he disappeared into the character.

But back on working with him at the office, I just wish I could have learned more from him.

You know, I certainly enjoyed working on the show.

I thought it was a lot of fun.

I did have a problem transitioning from lines that were written and then the improvisation that we were allowed to do.

I don't know if I ever really succeeded.

I kept getting tripped up on that.

But it was a wonderful experience.

I know toward the end, since Steve was leaving, they were interested in me possibly staying on.

And I had gone on to do Harry's Law.

But,

you know,

I don't want to cast aspersions on anybody, but I think it would have been fun to stay on the office, you know.

We would have liked that.

For sure.

For sure.

And really developed that character more, you know.

She had so much, you know, she was so layered.

I mean, the scenes between Michael and Joe on the private plane were just so brilliant.

I loved those.

I wanted to see more of her world.

Like, where does she go?

And the great Danes and your outfits and your hair.

Were you a part of the look of Joe Bennett?

Yeah, I had this fur coat that I had found

that was kind of strips of fur that was kind of.

really kind of low class.

But I insisted on wearing that.

That was just so inappropriate.

And

I think, yes, we worked on the hair and the look for her.

And it's been a while.

So forgive me.

I can't remember the wonderful people who worked with me on that

to really create something that was out of style.

You know, I think she figured, it's what they say, when you figure out what style looks good on you, you stay with it, regardless of your age or anything, or fashion.

And also just her swagger.

You know, I felt she had a lot of swagger and that she was probably a bull in a china shop.

That's how she ran her company.

It was just sort of steamrolling over everybody

and with her money.

And I loved the Great Danes.

I really did.

They were great.

There was one scene where I said, let's have the Great Dane.

We have to have one of them staring over my shoulder.

Yes, I remember that.

It's so brilliant.

Yeah, the trainers walked around with a lot of baby diapers,

the old-fashioned ones, because those dogs slobber a lot.

So, would they wipe them with the baby diapers?

From coming out, and they were a mother and a son, actually.

And I think they weighed about 120 pounds each, just huge, but really sweet.

You know, not really,

you know, not really bright, but they were, you know, we had fun with them.

And I loved the scene where one was looking over my shoulder.

So when that one one looks over your shoulder its head is bigger than yours

its presence on camera is so big yeah we kept trying to get him to to bark i don't know if we ever succeeded i can't remember now what was it like for you to be reunited with rain wilson he shared with us that you gave him his big break on six feet under you know what he was so funny i'll always have this memory

He came up for some reason, we were shooting in Ruth's room and he had just been hired at the funeral home

and so he was rushing out the door he had to do something we gave him something to do he had to go do it really quickly and he ran out into the hallway and he took a right

and then there was this pause and he ran left because he realized that he didn't know where he was going because it was a completely new environment for him and i thought oh my god this guy is brilliant it was such an amazing choice it was a shock he was so wonderful to work with, so inventive, so funny.

Well, all of the things that you saw working with him on the show, I'm sure.

When I worked with him on your show, he had evolved quite a bit, you know, as an actor.

And he's a very funny guy.

Really, really liked working with him.

Well, you know, we are both watching Matt Locke and we are loving it.

I mean, everyone is loving it.

Kathy, it has just taken off like wildfire and we would love to talk to you about it.

Well, I'm happy to talk about it.

Yeah, we're we're the numbers are just crazy.

They're just off the charts.

And the best part about it is that everybody involved with it, whether it's the

president of the studio, Amy Reisenbach, who's been our big fan, and David Stapp, the president of the studio, and George Sheeks, who's kind of over all of us in Paramount.

They're all so normal.

you know, and they're accessible.

They communicate and they send emails.

and you know they came to our last table read and I've never had that happen before.

And then of course there's Jenny Erman who created Jane the Virgin and she's brilliant.

Her mind works like a Rubik's cube and the layers that she's created in this series is just fascinating.

And I'm also an executive producer on the show, so they send me the episodes to take a look at, see if I have any suggestions.

and i mean it's just i can't wait i can't wait

i can't wait for what's coming up so when i first met jenny you know i first read the script and was i was reading along it seemed like it was just episodic you know that it was a case of the week yes and then of course there's the twist at the end and i was thrilled because i think okay now this has got substance It's about something.

It's about something meaningful.

It's something I can really sink my teeth into.

And I read it on a Friday.

I met with her on a Monday and I said, don't change a word.

I want to do this.

And then we started talking about the character and where it was going and

the

who she was, where she came from, all of the things, how she had planned this all out with her grandson, you know.

And it was.

It was fascinating.

I just, I didn't, I've never imagined playing a character like this.

Well, you're really playing two characters, right?

So you're playing this sort of like,

like, explain that to people.

Because if you watch the first episode, if you watch the pilot, it's one of the best pilots of anything I've ever seen.

I remember seeing the pilot for Breaking Bad and thinking, wow, that was a great pilot.

And I felt the same way when I saw the pilot for Matlock.

The twist at the end is genius, but you had me from the minute you stood at that coffee counter.

Yes.

And you're bumbling.

You get a guy to pay for your coffee.

You're putting your candies in your hand.

And you trick your way in to this law firm into their boardroom into a job.

It is amazing.

I think so, too.

I mean, I had to.

Keep asking Jenny questions about,

is this possible?

I remember asking a friend of mine who's in corporate law, not corporate law, but he's in the corporate world.

He's a dear friend of mine.

I said, could you do this?

Could you do this?

And he thought about it for a minute.

He said, yeah,

I could.

And then I don't have kids.

So I talked to my niece.

She has a daughter who's now grown.

And I said, but could you do this?

Could you be this, you know, devious and deceitful and lie to people all the time for your daughter?

And she said, yes.

yes, she said, when you're a mother, your love for your child is savage.

And I love, of course, the fact that she's older.

I would never have believed that I could have done a series like this at my age, been asked to do one.

And that we've gotten letters from people, from women who say, thank you.

I don't feel invisible anymore.

I think.

that you'll see as the series goes on that Matlock is really falling in love with being a lawyer again.

You know, she was in mourning for years and years, and then her grandson saw this Reddit post and said that, you know, this is a way to get back at them.

You know, she can plan everything she wants, but she doesn't expect to be a trial lawyer.

And you find out later on in the third episode that she, you know, went into contract law because of a sexual abuse experience instead of going into litigation, which is what she really wanted.

And

I'm jumping all over here, but that was a seminal moment for her that she was really able to make a difference, but that she was able to remember her own sexual assault.

And it changed her opinion about what young women go through nowadays.

And it also shows

not just the sexual assault, assault, which is what we all talk about and how bad that is and how prevalent that is,

but it talks about what happens then.

What happens after?

Do you make a different career choice for women that are trying to get into show business and they get into a really bad situation?

What happens to them after that?

And in this case, we see Maddie taking a divergent path, one that she wasn't happy with.

And she didn't realize that until she met this young woman.

So the fact that she's learning all of this from everyone is a very powerful thing to say in an episodic television show on network.

I was going to say

the idea, you know, I'm 53, but I'm still discovering things about myself.

And that life is a discovery.

You don't age out of discovery.

And I think sometimes we dismiss that.

We think that we can't discover new things about ourselves.

And I've really connected to that in this show.

I agree.

Yeah, I agree.

That's a really good point.

Every time I do something, I want to learn from it.

And one of the most valuable things, as I was saying, being an exact producer and being able to see the cuts, I'm learning things about my acting, like bad habits, you know, that I want to change without restricting myself.

But we're always learning.

We're always evolving as artists, as people.

We're trying to learn from our experiences and seeing that happen in a show like this is so i think that's one of the reasons people are so attracted to it and it's it's people from all walks of life which is what i really like I feel so grateful that everyone on the show, I think that even the crew, there was a sense when we came back to do episode two, because it was the first time we'd shot in America, we shot the pilot in Toronto.

So when we came back to do it here, there was just this buzz and this excitement about getting ready to do the show.

And the crew, you could feel it on the set.

It was just, it was,

it was new to me to feel that.

And so, I mean, we would all go around looking at each other, or even the day players or the guest cast that would come in would just be looking at us going, oh my God,

we can't believe it's like this.

We've We've never worked on a show like this.

So it's not just the material

that we're putting out for everybody.

It's also the experience of doing it every day and the joy of connecting and being vulnerable to one another so that the work really blossoms and you learn something about yourself.

All I can say is I'm grateful.

I'm just so grateful to have this experience.

Well, the way you talk about it and the way your face lights up and the way you talk about the people and the crew and the experience, it just reminds me so much of working on the office.

Doesn't it you, Angela?

Yes, so much, especially Kathy, when you were talking about how exciting it is to get the scripts and have an input.

You know, there was such a creative collaboration.

Greg Daniels set the tone for that, that we could go to the writers and we could pitch ideas to them.

That was so powerful and meaningful, even as a supporting cast member.

So I love that.

And you see it in the work, you see the creative collaboration.

It's why we're hooked from the minute you're on screen.

The cast is so fantastic.

I really love the cast.

And we can't wait.

You know, we'll keep talking about it.

I felt like for a minute, I felt you were talking about the office.

Oh, no, because it's the same way.

I mean, you

were full-blown people.

And there was, as you said before, you're living.

That's what I'm always saying to Jenny.

I don't want to play Maddie.

I want to be Maddie.

So that's what you guys were doing.

And the feeling on the set of the office is, I thought you were talking about you guys.

It's the same thing.

It is.

It's the same thing.

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Hello from my airbnb

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staying in an airbnb while i'm in chicago doing my play that's right you said it was great because your family was joining you for part of that time and you wanted a home i did because we're going to be here for a little while but you know i have used airbnb for shorter trips as well yeah are you ready for this what So one of my mom friends at the school,

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Well, you know, we also would love to talk to you about your advocacy work and your recent health journey.

And I know Jenna had reached out to you, and I would love to start that part of this conversation.

Right.

Jenna, can you tell me where you are in terms of your?

I know I heard that you have breast cancer.

Could you tell me a little bit about where you are in that journey?

Sure.

So I was diagnosed last December, December 2023.

In January, I had a lumpectomy and then I had a reconstructive surgery.

I had a breast reduction and lift.

And what they were able to do was take some of my own breast tissue and sort of fill in the hole where they removed the cancer.

So I was, I was reconstructed on the one side using my own tissue, and then they made the other side match.

And then

I did 12 rounds of taxil chemotherapy.

I got that once a week.

And I did three weeks of radiation.

And my breast cancer is triple positive.

So it was positive for estrogen, progesterone, and HER2.

And

so for a year, I receive these immunotherapy infusions of a drug called Herceptin,

which is a miracle drug that was discovered in my lifetime.

Before this drug was introduced to the treatment plan for women with HER2 positive breast cancers,

the survival rate was one of the lowest of the breast cancer diagnoses, and now it's one of the highest.

And so I feel very blessed that this is part of my treatment plan.

And so I've got a few more infusions of that ahead of me.

I get those once every three weeks.

And then I will be on tamoxifen, which is an estrogen blocker for five years.

And that's my treatment plan.

So I'm finished with the big three, as I called them, the surgery, the chemo, and the radiation.

And now

I still have a few things, you know, ahead of me.

But I, you know, I'm, I'm riding waves of random side effects every day.

It's a little different, you know, it's,

I,

I know

you, I don't know if you can relate, but one of the hardest parts of this whole process has been just

the intense need for flexibility on a day-to-day basis according to what my body can do, you know, and

that's hard for me because I'm a real planner.

I love a schedule.

I love to do what I say I was going to do.

And so

that's kind of where I am in the process.

Well, I had breast cancer, let's see,

right, I think right as I started after I started working with you guys.

It was 2012.

Yeah.

And

I had a very bad experience with it.

I'd had

a variant in 2003.

And for some reason, even though I went through nine rounds of chemo for that,

that was the chemo was really hard.

It was,

we had to do, I can't remember the names of the drugs, but I remember they gave me steroids and then.

I would be coming off the steroids and just getting, I don't know if you've gone through that, but that's been really difficult.

that was very difficult i got steroids before each round of chemo and i found that the steroids the the

side effects of the steroids having me be real amped and then crashing kind of right as the chemo would hit me that was that was a rough couple days yeah yeah i that was what really that was difficult for me um but with the breast cancer that that sort of came out of nowhere i was speaking at sloan Kettering about being a cancer survivor with ovarian cancer and then came home and discovered I had breast cancer, which was kind of ironic.

And because it ran in my runs in my family, I said, you know, just take both off because I had

mainly it was in my left breast, but there were some troubling things in my right breast.

And so I decided to have them both removed.

I didn't opt for reconstruction.

I don't know why.

I think at the time I just didn't want to do it.

And they put drains in

and they're very thick, heavy,

not heavy, but thick plastic drains.

I'm familiar.

I had the drains, yes.

Yeah.

And for some reason on the left side, it must have hit a nerve.

I don't know what it was, but it was so painful.

And I realized when they removed it, that's what the extra pain was.

There was the pain involved.

And then I developed lymphedema after that.

My arms were very swollen.

I could only wear men's shirts for a long time.

And through my doctor here, I met Bill Rapisi, who is the CEO of the Lymphatic Education and Research Network.

He asked me to come aboard as a national spokesperson.

And I said, Bill,

I've never done this before.

I don't know if I can do a good job, what's involved.

But he told me a couple of really disturbing facts that nearly 10 million people in this country suffer from some kind of lymphedema, and about 50,000 of those are congenital.

So it strikes kids.

When we were lobbying in Congress, I met a man who lost three kids to pulmonary lymphedema.

Doctors in medical school in four years of medical school spend 15 minutes on learning about the lymphatic system.

And see, Kathy, I did not know what lymphedema was.

And when you started talking about it is when I learned about it.

And Jenna had shared with me as well.

So I think this is so important to talk about.

Yeah, something like 20% of breast cancer patients develop lymphedema.

And it's because when you get your breast cancer surgery, something that is.

just standard is they remove some of your lymph nodes to test them for cancer to see if the cancer has spread.

That from the breast, those lymph nodes underneath your arm, that's first stop shopping for the cancer.

So they test those lymph nodes, but they remove them.

And when you mess with the lymphatic system like that, when you do that surgery, you increase your risk of developing lymphedema.

And

it was something that luckily my doctor did explain to me before my surgery.

They educated me on the warning signs about my arms swelling or my legs or ankles swelling.

And my cancer was on my left side and I had my lymph nodes removed on my left side and they have told me that whenever I get a blood pressure cuff it needs to be on my right side

and if I'm gonna get an IV it needs to be placed on my right side because that is just how incredibly vulnerable your lymphatic system is to disturbance well I'm thrilled to hear you say all of that because that means that the doctors have learned about it and are making patients aware when i had breast cancer and I had my breast cancer done at a top-notch place here, but the doctors didn't talk to me about that.

I kept talking to them about it because I had been dating a guy at the time who had it in his left arm and it's progressive and it's incurable.

And he had gone through an experimental treatment to survive cancer and did not want to go to another doctor until, you know, ever in his life.

And as a result, his arm became like wood.

Oh my gosh.

And that was my fear.

And also that, you know, I was afraid that that was what lymphedema was.

And I was full of rage because I had told the doctors, I'm worried about this.

I'm worried about this.

I'm worried about this.

And they took so many lymph nodes.

But I'm thrilled that they told you all of that because back then, My doctor had to go and look it up on the internet.

Wow.

And he found this woman, wonderful Dr.

Emily Eicher, who was able to work with me and

get my arms down over a period of time.

And now that I've lost a lot of weight, that really helped.

But trying to educate people over the last 10 years has been a real journey.

We would get emails from people.

I remember one guy, I'll never forget him,

John Dayo, who wrote us an email.

And at the end of the email, all capital letters, help me, help me, help me, help me, help me.

Because the people are in so much pain.

They don't know who to go to.

I'm really proud of all the work that we've done with LEARN.

Our CEO has gone all around the world.

We have now the first National Commission on Lymphatic Disease at the NIH.

They had their first meeting a couple of months ago.

And we worked really hard to have that happen.

Rosa DeLaro of Connecticut, the congresswoman there, was instrumental in getting us the attention that we needed to get this commission going.

We got a grant from the CDC for publicity to really create our outreach for people.

We're now working on the DOD because it's not just underneath our arms.

If these veterans come back and their traumatic injuries have damaged their lymph system, they're at risk.

We have a man who wanted to be in the Coast Guard and he came back from the military and he was just a mess.

And he had to give up that dream.

That's been the most moving and sad parts of this is realizing that people had to give up their dreams because of,

and there's a kind of lymphedema that happens when you're like late teens, early 20s, when you're just beginning your life and out of nowhere.

They don't know what it is.

It's some predisposition that occurs at that time.

And I appreciate so much your letting me talk about it on your show because education is key.

And I always tell the people that are at our lobbies

sessions in Washington, D.C.:

your pain is your power.

Your story is your power.

And the fact that you can share your story with me and you can tell people how far we've come.

Yeah.

It's amazing that you have perky breasts.

You know?

I do like how my shirts fit me better now.

I'll say that.

And my hair, Kathy, after chemotherapy.

So before chemotherapy, my hair was almost all gray.

And after chemotherapy, my hair is growing in, not gray.

Oh my God.

So I heard that people said, oh, if you have straight hair, it might come back curly.

If you have curly hair, like it'll come back a different texture.

It might come back a different color.

And you're not having to color your hair no how about that that's so great i'm jelly i'm totally jelly

no i i lost everything i lost every hair everywhere some of it i'm glad i lost uh but uh it took me a while to get it back yeah it was yeah they they don't you know they when i heard that i was gonna have to have chemo my first two thoughts were i don't want to throw up and i don't want to lose my hair that's what i associated chemotherapy with and um I didn't throw up, but I did lose my hair.

And I, it didn't occur to me till it was happening that it is all your hair.

It's your eyebrows and your eyelashes and all of it everywhere.

And it's weird.

My eyebrows came back real quickly, though.

I was happy for that because I was not great at drawing them in.

But it's really weird to not have eyelashes.

You know?

Yeah, I don't think my eyelashes really came back.

Or maybe it's just being older.

Yeah, I had a friend of mine, actually, Judy Corey, who did my hair for Misery.

She came and

that was back in 2003.

She came over and shaved my head for me.

And then after I had a bald head, I mean, I did use all these, I had things made like caps and all this bullshit wigs and everything.

And finally, I just thought, I saw Melissa Etheridge, you know, just wailing on her guitar on on some kind of a show with a bald head.

And I thought, oh, okay, you know, time to just stop all this hiding and just be who you are.

But I'm thrilled that there are all of these new, what was the H1 that you said, HERPA?

Oh, yeah, HERSA, HERSTA.

HERSA.

Herceptin.

Yeah, it's a targeted immunotherapy.

I mean, really, it's only been out for about 25 years, and it has just drastically changed the prognosis for women with HER2 positive breast cancers.

Wow.

It's really amazing.

Wow.

Oh, bless you.

You didn't have to go through that.

And you're not having any problems with your arm.

I am not.

No.

And I'm really, I'm really grateful for that.

And, and after my surgery, my doctor also prescribed some physical therapy.

So I was able to get that.

side moving.

You know, it's very tender, though.

I have to say, of all my scars, of

all of the ways that I've been poked and prodded in this process of getting a port and all the things,

that scar underneath my arm from where they remove the lymph nodes is the most tender.

It's still tight when I try to raise my arm above my head.

It is really, truly such a sensitive area.

Yeah, it's going to be tender, I think.

I mean, this is new.

You've only had it, what, for a year, gone through it?

Yeah, January is the anniversary of my surgery.

Look at all you've done in a year.

I know.

Well, you know, Kathy, I remember you worked right after your chemotherapy.

You went back to work pretty quickly.

And I read something that you said, which was that it was a little bit of an opportunity to be not a cancer patient.

You got to play a character.

And I have kept working through my treatment.

And I needed that for my mental health.

I needed a place that I went went throughout the week.

And I just laughed with my best friend.

And we talked about these great memories of our time on this show together.

Because really, truly, it is so many appointments.

It is so much of my life and my time is spent with doctors and being a patient that I needed a place where I wasn't that.

Yeah.

That's true.

Lynn Redgrave, God rest her, she was going through fifth stage breast cancer and on the downward slope.

I wasn't done with chemo there, actually.

I just was about to start it and I was having gastro problems.

And she said, you've got to do this.

You can be somebody else, you know, as you're saying for the day.

And she was right.

You know, it gave me,

although I was pretty cranky for a while because I just wasn't, I wasn't healed yet.

Yeah, I was,

it was a little too soon.

But it was also, I couldn't turn down the payday.

I really needed the payday because I really dropped out.

I was scared.

I was one of those people, and this was with the ovarian.

I was one of those people who stayed up at night, you know, and looked at the internet to see if I could divine anything.

But knock wood, it's been 20 years, and I don't think I'm going to be having more problems with that.

How are you doing emotionally?

Oh, you're so kind to ask.

How am I doing emotionally?

I'm okay most of the time,

but

at least once a week, I get mad because

every day I feel like I have to swim upstream a little bit.

I have to swim against the current just to have a normal day.

And it's exhausting.

But I am really so very well supported

by my husband and by friends, by Angela.

But I did notice that there was a real swell of support during chemotherapy.

I think because people know how hard that is to get through.

And when the chemo was over, some of the support went away.

Sometimes I feel.

like I'm bothering people

or I feel like they're going to get frustrated with me.

They're going to be like, geez, is this ever going to end with her?

And that's how I feel.

I feel like, geez, is this ever going to end with me?

But I do still need support.

And I think that's something I would want people to know if they have a friend or a family member going through this is that the struggle doesn't end when the treatments quote unquote end.

You know?

I think that's a great point.

And I think that's exactly what I experienced when I had ovarian cancer.

You know, I had a friend at the time who was so supportive.

And I remember at one point,

we were getting ready to go somewhere.

And I was sitting on the step doing my, lacing my shoes, and my cap fell off.

And he sort of laughed.

And I just said, this is so hard for me.

And then I found out that as I progressed through the chemotherapy, this was for ovarian,

that people have exactly that reaction.

Only they left sooner during my, because it went on for nine months.

My doctor wanted me to do it for six months, but he said, You're doing well.

So let's do it, you know, another three months.

And people just sort of dropped away because they didn't, they said, wow, you know,

isn't this over?

Isn't it going to be done?

Is it, you know, they didn't have the patience, really.

And

so I went to my chemotherapy sessions by myself.

I got to the point.

Well, I got to the point of where I would just go by myself.

It was easier to go and hope that I got the really good-looking Russian nurse who would come in.

I don't know what his name was.

I can't remember Vasily or something like that, or Yvonne.

I was like, oh my God, he's here today.

Great, great.

But it would take about four hours, you know, to be in there.

And they gave me a private room and all of that.

So being a VIP helped.

And thank God with the breast cancer, I didn't have to go through chemotherapy or radiation, which is one reason why I opted to just make it a double.

Yeah.

But I was really enraged after, but we talked about that before.

And it wasn't until I sat with Dr.

Iker, you know, and I told her all of the things I was feeling and the rage that I was feeling.

And she's this charming little woman, Czechoslovakian, and she's just said something like, okay, well,

let's have a glass of champagne and then we will begin the rest of your life

so

somehow she just slowly pulled me out of my rage and then working with with learn i was able to use it

you know to to give it purpose to give it purpose to give back to do something real in the real world which is like what you guys are doing angela have you ever had to deal with anything like this Yes, my grandmother and my aunt were all breast cancer survivors.

My grandmother passed away, but not from cancer.

And my aunt, my mom's sister, had a really rough go, but she's doing much better now.

So I go and, you know, get my mammograms and try to stay on top of it.

But,

you know, when Jenna got her diagnosis, all I wanted to do was be a source of support.

And I wanted to just be strong for for her.

And, you know, we never really talked it out

about just the scary side of it and the those emotions until we sat down on our podcast to talk about it for the first time.

And I think I cried for 20 minutes and we couldn't even use it because it was the first time I said out loud,

she was cancer-free.

You know, it's like I, and when we finally talked about it, I completely fell apart.

I held it together for a year, but then I just

fell apart because just watching someone you care about go through it and not knowing what the hell you can do other than to just say, I'm thinking of you and I love you and I'm praying for you.

And that's about it, you know, and just try to keep being there for her and being steadfast and hoping I was enough to help her when she needed it.

But it is so important that you guys are sharing about it.

It's so important.

We've had so many people reach out to us when Jenna shared and Kathy, I know you're having this experience too, that the burden of feeling alone in it, the burden of feeling like you can't talk about it, that itself is just too much to bear, I think, on top of everything else.

And I'm so happy to be part of this conversation with you all and for people listening to hear it.

Oh, thank you.

Too many of us and younger and younger and younger are getting breast cancer, developing breast cancer.

And

I'm so heartened by what I've learned from you today, Jenna, because to realize that the strides that they've made just in the last 20 years is phenomenal.

And I wish I'd had that kind of prevent.

I'm trying to remember the name of the chemo that I was on for Ovarian.

Did you get it every three weeks?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I got one that was once a week.

Do you recall the name of it?

Mine was called Taxil.

Do you know, I think that's the same one I had, but only every three weeks.

Oh yeah, they can do it in other doses.

Yeah, they can do it.

Yeah.

Did you know that it comes from the yew tree?

And the Druids felt that the ewe tree represented rebirth?

No, but can I tell you something?

So every time they brought, I'm going to get emotional.

Every time they brought the chemotherapy in

to the room and every time they bring the Herceptin in, my husband would go up to it and he would thank it for being there.

He would say, Thank you.

We welcome you into Jenna's body to do your work.

You are welcome here.

We are so excited to have you here.

We are happy you exist and we welcome you into her body to to rid her of this cancer.

Oh my gosh.

Oh my gosh.

My husband said, he said, if when it gets in the room, we tense up and we hate it and we're negative.

He said that it's just, he was like, I want us to have a different attitude when it comes in the room.

I want us to have an attitude of gratitude.

I want us to thank it for being here.

And he said, I think that that will.

That openness in your body to accept this medicine will help it do its work.

That's what he said.

Isn't that beautiful?

That's phenomenal.

That's phenomenal.

And I think it's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I can't believe what you said about that tree.

Oh, yes.

My niece dug that up.

Wow.

You know, I was an old hippie at one point in my life.

So, yeah.

Well, Kathy, thank you for sharing all of that.

Yes.

Thank you.

First of all,

we are going to share everything about the lymphatic education and research network on our social media.

I will put swipe ups to links so so people can learn more.

And then we thought we would end this interview with a tradition from the office call sheets.

On the back of our call sheets, they would do a few questions and get to know the casting crew.

And they would feature a new person each week.

So Jenna and I picked our three favorite questions that were the regular questions, and we'd like to ask them to you.

Okay.

The first one is: What is a place that you have been to that you absolutely loved?

I was at a place called the Spring Cottage.

It was in England.

It was on the Thames.

It belonged to Lady Astor.

It's now a part of the National Preserve there.

And

we were doing a movie, and I got to stay down at the Spring Cottage.

And it was right on the river.

And it had its own boat.

It had a butler, if you can believe that.

And it's where Lady Sutherland lived.

And Queen Victoria would come and have tea there.

And you can look at pictures of it.

It's just so beautiful.

Clived in House, Taplow.

Yeah, built for Queen Victoria by the Sutherlands.

And it's located on the River Thames in the grounds of Clivedon House.

It's a three-bedroom Riverside property with a private garden and covered porch.

Well, that sells lovely.

I mean, done.

Okay.

But Kathy, you've also...

like traveled the country in an RV, right?

Yes, I did.

I recently sold it, but I loved it.

This is one of my favorite memories of being in Hair and Makeup with you is that I was wanting to go on a road trip and you were telling me about your RV trips in Hair and Makeup.

And that was a dream of my dad's.

And I just loved it.

I hung on your every word.

I was like, I want to load up and go see America.

It's great.

When I bought it, my niece said at the time, it's the boomer thing to do.

We found these wonderful places to stay.

And a lot of them, I guess it is a boomer thing to do.

You can find these beautiful places with your pads, that you have all of your electricity.

You have like a,

you know, a barbecue place, but then they'll have a main building where you can do laundry.

And there's all, I mean, some of them are just out of this world.

I highly recommend them, especially if you have a loved one.

It's really a couples thing to do.

Yeah.

Or a family thing to do.

I'm curious, what was your favorite spot that you visited in your RV?

Or what, did you go to a lot of national parks and things?

Actually, my favorite place, I went to my hometown, Memphis, and through friends, I found

a very simple spot on the western side of the Mississippi.

And we were right there with the Mississippi River.

Literally, there was nothing in between us.

And his family had left it to him, this piece of property, and he turned turned it into an RV park I don't know what it is now that was one of my favorite places two of your favorite places are on a river Kathy yeah I like rivers

our next question is do you play a musical instrument I used to play the guitar and I don't anymore

but I I have a couple of ones that I really, really enjoy.

And

the first job I ever got was a movie called Taking Off and I had I played a song that I wrote when I was 16 and it was in the movie it was Milo Schoreman's first film American film

but that's been many many years ago I loved playing I taught myself how to play and

so it was I miss it wow okay that is so cool i mean you wrote a song that's in a movie that's just it's amazing that's pretty cool um last question What do you like to do on the weekends?

Ah,

it depends

what I like to do on the weekends.

Sometimes I like to go to a real movie theater and see a movie.

Sometimes I'm learning lines.

It's depending if I'm working or not.

What else do I like to do?

I like to color.

I like to color coloring books and stuff.

And I have,

in fact, Jenny Ehrman, who wrote our series, just sent me a box of wonderful pencils and coloring books because she loves to do that.

And I have an app on my iPad that I love to do.

I love to color.

I love to listen to books on tape.

That's one of the things I'm really starting to enjoy on my hiatus is that I'm now back to listening to books and reading a lot of different kinds of books.

I just finished a book called The Conclave last night, which is.

brilliant.

I know there's a film out about it.

I want to go and see that.

So yes, I'll do, I like to read.

I like to color.

I guess it's kind of like a,

I don't know, maybe I'm

stuck at 13 years old.

I don't know.

But

those are the kinds of things I like to do and be with my dog, my puppy, and just very low-key.

That sounds lovely.

Well, Kathy, you are such an icon of the entertainment business.

You're such an icon.

And I wondered if we could end the interview by asking you, what is the best piece of advice you received in your career?

And what advice might you give an aspiring actor?

Well, it all boils down to someone once told me you have to have a head like a bullet and a heart like a baby.

And

I could expand on that by saying, especially nowadays with social media being so powerful and powerful in negative ways, is that you really have to be, you have to get strong.

You have to get tough.

And at the same time,

not get cynical or bitter.

But you've got to protect yourself.

I don't advocate being on social media unless, in your case,

it's a great thing for your show.

You need to do that.

But I don't want to read negative things about myself.

I just think that the best kind of advice I could give is if you're serious about being an actor, if you want to be an actor like Killian Murphy or Anthony Hopkins or Kate Blanchette, You have to study.

You have to work.

You can't just be, it's wonderful to be young and to be given an opportunity.

And if you've got that spark, if you've got it and you can really sail out there, that's great.

And then I'd say, protect your heart.

Don't let your heart get hurt by strangers who say things about you or your work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because work is what got us here.

Work is what's going to keep us here.

I mean, it's like you guys were talking about the collaborative aspect of your work.

And that was the focus of what you did.

And that's what made it so wonderful.

Yeah, I love that.

I feel like it's sometimes hard to be an artist because you do have to keep that open heart in order to do the work.

But that makes it so that you're, I don't know, it's, it's so easy to get wounded when you have that open heart.

So it's, it's such a balance.

It's, it is.

It's a gift to be porous.

It works great in your work, but it's not so great in the world outside it can be difficult but i remember producer because i got very hurt one time in london by an awful interviewer and i literally left the tour and i remember the producer coming to me and saying you're gonna have to get a lot tougher you're gonna you're gonna have to toughen up you know and he was right anyway i appreciate being able to chat with you in a very open and safe way.

And I think we talked about some wonderful things.

And I'm so happy for you.

Oh, well, thank you.

I'm so happy for you, Jenna, that you're, that you come through this.

Kathy, it was, it was such an honor to work with you.

Yes.

You know, you did something at our first table read together that I never forgot.

You sat down at the table and you had the script and you got out a golden folding fan, the kind that you go like,

and you would fan yourself because you were hot, you know?

And I thought to myself one day I am gonna earn the right

to fan myself with a golden fan and so Kathy my goal in life is to win a Tony

I want to do a Broadway show.

I want to win a Tony.

And when I walk up on that stage to accept my award, I am going to get out a golden fan and I am going to fan myself in your honor.

I'll wait for that.

I really will.

I'm excited for you to do that.

Angela, thank you so much.

It was great speaking with you today.

I really appreciate it.

Wonderful.

Thank you so much, Kathy.

You're a light in the world, and we just adore you.

So thank you so much for

the opportunity.

Bye, guys.

Bye.

Take care.

Okay.

Oh, man.

I just loved all of that.

I loved just spending time with her.

I really felt like we got to spend time with her.

Yeah.

And I just love how happy she is in this new job and this new chapter of her life.

You and I can really relate to that.

Yeah.

And Matlock, you guys, airs on CBS every Thursday at 9 p.m.

Eastern, and it's also streaming on Paramount Plus.

And it's already been picked up for a second season.

Well, you know, Angela, we also said we would share a swipe up in our stories where people can learn more about lymphedema.

And I would also like to include a link to the breast cancer risk assessment test.

It is a test that you can take online at home to calculate your risk for developing breast cancer.

And it's kind of based on your age, breast density, family history.

And if you have an increased risk, you can share those results with your doctor and you might qualify for additional diagnostic testing.

For example, if you are at a high risk but you're younger than 40, you might qualify for an annual mammogram much sooner.

I have said before that my success with treatment is

due to my very early detection, so it's really worth taking the test.

Yeah, so important.

Well, everyone, thanks for listening today.

We're going to be back with you on Friday with a special holiday bonus episode.

Yeah, we can't wait.

It's really festive.

It's really fun.

And we just hope you guys have a great week.

Know that we're thinking of you.

And we'll see you Friday.

See you then.

Thank you for listening to Office Ladies.

Office Ladies is a presentation of Odyssey and is produced by Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey.

Our executive producer is Cassie Jerkins.

Our audio engineer is Sam Kiefer and our associate producer is Ainsley Bubbico.

Odyssey's executive producers are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Leah Rhys-Dennis.

Office Ladies is mixed and mastered by Chris Basil.

Our theme song is Rubber Tree by Creed Bratton.

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