An Interview with Zach Woods

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I am

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That's right.

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I did because we're going to be here for a little while.

But you know, I have used Airbnb for shorter trips as well.

Yeah.

Are you ready for this?

What?

So one of my mom friends at the school,

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In Iceland?

In Iceland.

Wow.

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I'm Jenna Fisher.

And I'm Angela Kinsey.

We were on The Office together.

And we're best friends.

And now we're doing the Ultimate Office Rewatch podcast just for you.

Each week, we will break down an episode of The Office and give exclusive behind-the-scenes stories that only two people who were there can tell you.

We're the office ladies.

Hello.

Hey, welcome back.

Welcome back from Thanksgiving.

We hope hope everybody had good meals and good times.

Yes, with friends and family.

Some people do friendsgiving.

One of my favorite Thanksgivings was a friendsgiving.

It was my first year in Los Angeles.

I couldn't afford to fly home to see family.

Yeah.

So me and my other friends who were in LA,

we got together.

And we had a Thanksgiving.

My friend Luda, she's Russian.

She brought this Russian vodka.

We all got so hammered.

That's a friendsgiving.

It was so fun.

I actually just found a picture of us recently.

It came up in my memory.

Really?

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

I love that.

Yeah, we had traded it.

You know, Josh,

he bought me the most insane thing last year for Thanksgiving.

And he was like, this is going to be a tradition now.

You're going to have to wear it every Thanksgiving.

I was like, babe.

What is it?

Okay.

You know, I'm always cold and I always want a cozy onesie.

I'm like, babe, get me a onesie.

Get me a cozy onesie.

Okay.

Lady, it's a turkey.

A turkey onesie.

And first of all, it's a one-size-fits-all, so it's enormous.

Do you eat in it?

Do you wear it all day?

No, I can't.

It's like wearing a giant blanket.

I can't eat in it, but I do put it on.

Well, I've only done, this is my second year.

Okay.

I don't know what the tradition of this turkey onesie is going to be, but I told him, here's what I'll do because he thinks it's so cute.

I put it on and I watch the Macy's Day parade in my turkey onesie.

Okay.

And then

we get the food prep going, but I don't wear it to the actual Thanksgiving dinner.

What is it that Josh thinks this is so funny?

I look like a tiny, tiny turkey.

Do you watch football?

Oh, yeah.

Football's always on.

So when I got into football, I was dating a guy who was from Detroit.

And you know, Detroit plays every Thanksgiving.

And the Cowboys.

Yes.

Now I'm married to a Dallas man.

Yeah.

Now I'm a Cowboys fan.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So Cowboys, every Thanksgiving.

You got to work the meal around it.

Half of my family's from Texas.

Lady.

It's always.

You know.

What am I saying?

I know.

Of course.

Well, listen, we have a really exciting show for you today.

I don't even know what to say about it.

It's maybe one of my favorite episodes we've ever done.

Jenna and I.

are in love with this interview, you guys.

I'm sorry, it's an interview, but it was so wonderful.

Well, Jenna, you tell everyone.

Well, we got to sit down with Zach Woods.

As you know, Zach played Gabe Lewis on 52 episodes of The Office.

He was on from season six to season nine.

We talk all about it.

We talk about his entire time on the show and other things.

Here's the thing.

He's just so interesting and he's so smart and funny.

And we would be talking about the show and then he would throw you and I like a curveball question.

Like a deep life

question about what it means to be just human and alive.

Like, yes, so fun.

I just can't wait for everyone to listen to this interview.

I just love it.

Well, you guys, Zach is currently working on a new stop-motion animation series called In the Know.

He's the co-creator, the director, and star of the show.

And Greg Daniels is one of the executive producers.

So you know this is going to be good.

The show premieres on Peacock in the new year.

So be on the lookout.

Yeah, we'll share about it in stories.

But you know what?

I think we take a quick break and get to this interview because it's so fantastic.

You're going to love it.

And the second half, dare I say, is even better than the first.

It keeps getting better and better.

Here it is.

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You're not weird lady.

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It's our go-to for our kids' lunches, and and it's our go-to for our lunches.

Same.

Josh often makes me a lunch that I bring into the podcast and many times it is a sandwich with Borsehead oven gold turkey.

Well, I want to throw everyone a little curveball.

I just want to throw this out there.

Okay.

Borsehead does an ever-roast chicken.

You're going to like it.

When you think of sandwiches, I think you think of turkey ham.

I'm not sure.

You think of chicken and I just wanted to throw it out there.

That's it.

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So head to your local Borse Head deli counter to discover the craftsmanship behind every bite.

You won't be sorry.

Try the chicken.

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Hello, Zach.

Hello, Zach.

How wonderful to see you.

How wonderful to see you and you.

Should we tell people we've actually been chatting off mic for like 30 minutes?

Oh, seriously, we've been talking for half an hour, but we decided we should probably get to the podcast.

Yes.

They literally said we're going to do a big fake hello, and then you immediately called on yourself.

You're giving away our secrets.

All right.

I'm going to do an office man office ladies podcast where I tell the stories behind the office ladies podcast.

Okay.

Oh, it'll be like Russian dolls.

Yeah.

Oh, my.

So you listen to office ladies, then you break down our podcast.

Right.

And I'll have you guys on to talk about the podcast when you're talking about the.

This might be a genius idea.

Well, we're going to kick things off with the question we ask all of our guests to start, which is, how did you get your job on the office?

That's a good question.

Allison Jones, who you guys both know, was like a fairy godmother to me.

Like she, for people who, I mean, I know you've talked about her on the show, but she was the casting director for the show and like basically American comedy for a decade or more.

Right.

And she brought me in to her office, which was in Gower's studios, where I guess they used to shoot I Love Lucy and stuff.

Wow.

Right.

Isn't that right?

I think so.

Yeah.

It was like one of these old Hollywood things.

It's got like plaques everywhere.

Right.

Yeah.

And like plaster.

And it just feels like, you know, whatever.

You can like, it's like where you can imagine like Clark Gable stumbling into there after he like killed someone and be like telling his publicist, like, bury it.

But anyway, uh,

poor Clark Gable.

I'm sorry, Clark Gable.

You probably never killed anyone.

I'm sorry.

I just feel like I, you know, like, old Hollywood stars were always killing people and telling their publicists to come up with it.

Bury it.

Get rid of it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She was just some girl.

No one's going to know.

Yeah.

Anyway, but got distracted.

Okay.

Alison Jones.

Alison Jones.

So I remember meeting with her and I'd done this movie called In the Loop and she'd seen it and she brought me in for a meeting and I really hadn't done anything except for this one little independent movie.

And she talked to me for like an hour.

And then at the end of it, she just went, I'm going to help you,

which is such a wild thing for someone to say in Hollywood, you know, and then even a wilder thing to mean and follow through on.

And then she got me a meeting with Greg, Daniels, and Paul.

And

they just gave me a part on the office, which is a show that I had been like obsessively watching.

I i felt like i won a contest like you know what i mean like you win a raffle and you can do like a walk-on on like a tv show like i felt like it was so bizarre to me that she almost like to a suspicious degree where it's like like who's gonna jump out and say gotcha or something right yeah or is she gonna like Am I gonna get a call in a year where Allison Jones is like throw napalm in one of my enemies' faces?

It's like time for payback.

You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, exactly.

And then, yeah, and then I just got this part.

And then I moved into this this house in Echo Park where it was a basement and I'm tall and there were these rafters.

So I had to constantly duck.

Like I couldn't, it was the ceiling was too low.

So I was constantly doing these like kind of body rolls around my living room.

And I was, somehow she got wind of this and she was like, oh, I have an empty condo in Beachwood Canyon, which I'll give to you for a song, basically.

And then she gave me this like beautiful condo to live in for like very low rent where they used to house.

It was like a dormitory for starlits back in the like, it was like the MGM gals would be there.

And in the basement, there was a beauty salon where they had to go through the works before they could go out into the world because they didn't want anyone seeing like the MGM girls looking less than their best, basically.

So, I was effectively an MGM girl thanks to Allison Jones.

But I'm being long-winded.

I'm a little, like, we're a little nervous because we're starting Alison.

I'll be less long-winded, but I will just say, Allison Jones, I will never be able to adequately express the difference that Allison Jones made in my life professionally, residentially, personally.

Just like that woman just like tapped me with her magic wand and gave me my life as a, you know, in LA, basically.

I mean, we feel the same way about Allison Jones.

Yeah.

I had a general meeting with her

and she sort of did the same thing.

It was like one hour meeting, hey, I like you.

I think you're talented.

I'm going to help you out.

And then just called me in for years for little.

bit parts and then eventually how lucky am i that the person who decided to help me was hired to cast The Office?

That was just my good luck.

Yeah.

You know, because then she was like, well, I'm going to have you meet on this new show, The Office.

So it was the same thing.

Like, and I've heard people tell this story about Allison Jones many, many times.

It's crazy.

And she has like this kind of like flinty New Englander quality where if you try to tell this to her face, it's just like, it's like shining light on a vampire or something.

She, she just refuses the accolades, right?

Yeah.

That's right.

She can't tolerate it.

It's just like, that's been my experience anyway, where you try to like look her in the eyes and be like, thank you.

Yeah.

She's like,

no, it's fine.

Here, have a homemade cookie I just made.

Because she always has like delicious cookies.

Right.

She just feels like that awesome, warm aunt that's on the lookout for you.

It's true.

Allison, we love you.

I love you.

If you haven't gathered it.

Besides In the Loop, which I remember and which everyone was talking about when you came to work with us, it's a great movie.

Besides that, what was your background?

Like, do you have an improv background?

Yeah, I started doing improv at Upright Citizens Brigade in New York, and I mostly just thought I was going to do that.

I remember talking to someone and being like, I just want to get a temp job and do improv at night.

That was eight years of my life.

It's fun, right?

Yeah.

Did you feel like when you were doing that, did it feel

unsatisfying in some fundamental way?

No, it was the most fun.

Right.

It was the most fun because the job I didn't really care about.

I just needed to pay bills bills so I could go do improv.

And then you're with like, you have a community.

Yeah.

And they all are like-minded.

And we were so into it.

We were probably really obnoxious.

Well, I used to teach too when I was in New York to help, like, I'd like teaching and also it helped me survive.

But I remember once being in a cab in New York and going past an improv theater and seeing all these adults outside.

And they were like throwing like imaginary knives to each other or whatever.

They were doing some like warm-up.

Improv game.

It was so humiliating and so

you could not look nerdier and less cool.

And these people, I just felt my heart swell in my chest.

Like seeing these like grown adults just like kind of, they look so happy.

They were just like being so cringe, so happily out in public in New York on the street.

I was just like, God bless you guys.

Like it's so sweet.

Like I found it so moving.

I feel like I went in.

I thought it was so perfect when they made the choice to have Michael Scott in an improv group.

It's so perfect.

It was so perfect.

Like I took improv classes with a Michael Scott.

Oh my God.

It's mostly Michael Scott.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

How much were you told about the character Gabe?

Did you know it was going to be like a long arc?

No, I didn't know much.

It's a pretty foggy memory because I think because it felt like such a, I felt like such a raffle winner where it's like you can be on your favorite show.

It created like such a rush of anxiety that like I've never experienced anything like it before since.

Like to be like completely inexperienced as a TV actor and to be thrust into a show where you're like, you know what I mean?

It's just like, it was really overwhelming.

And I remember like

when I first moved out here, right before I started filming, I remember there was like some moment.

This is a really crazy compromising moment.

I was at Walmart.

First of all, I didn't know how to drive because I've been living in New York.

So I had to, like, as an adult man, go to Pennsylvania and have my father like reteach me to drive because I was like, I'm going to be in LA.

You have to teach me to drive.

So my dad taught me to drive like some weird like little short film or something.

And then I remember when we started shooting, driving terrified me so much that.

I would show up on set and my jaw would be so clenched that I had a hard time saying words.

So I would take CDs, Frank Sinatra CDs, and I would put them in the car and force myself to sing along with old blue eyes so that my jaw would stay open, so that I wouldn't show up with like rigor mortis face.

Yeah.

And then I think before I'd even shot my first scene, being in a Walmart, buying like multiple humidifiers and lozenges and shit, because I was like, I'm going to lose my voice and then I'm not going to be able to do it.

And I'm going to, I was so panicked.

And I was worried I was going to forget my line.

So I was like muttering my lines in a Walmart.

For some reason, I didn't get a basket.

So I just had like armfuls of like humidifiers and lozenges just like muttering like my lines to myself like a crazy person.

So what I really remember from that time is just the white-hot panic of like,

you know, like.

Were you prone to losing your voice?

What was this anxiety about losing your voice?

I was prone to losing my mind.

I was like,

you in the Walmart.

I think it was just like anything.

You know, you have like free-ranging.

Sometimes I feel like anxiety is just like a giant like military helicopter that needs some place to land.

You know what I mean?

And it was like, oh, today it'll be landing on the landing pad of like vocal anxiety.

Tomorrow it'll be like whatever that, you know, some weird hypochondriacal thing in a different direction.

Yes.

Yes.

So I don't remember what they told me, but I didn't think I was, I thought it might just be a few episodes and then they gave me more and I was like, wow, that's great.

Do you remember your first day on set?

Yeah.

What did you shoot your very first day?

I think the first thing I shot was to camera, like one of the interviews.

A talking hat.

A talking hat.

Okay.

Yeah.

That's a good way to start, actually, because it's just you.

No one is dependent on your line for timing.

You're not driving a scene.

Right.

So I think that's actually a really smart way to start.

They might have done that on purpose, too.

What was your first impression coming on the set?

Well, John Krasinski directed the episode that I was doing.

And I remember something happened on set and it like took longer than they were expecting.

So I was sort of in my trailer just churning.

And then they called me to set.

And I think John knew that I was kind of like pent up and terrified.

And so he just like, even though I'm sure it had been a long day and there was a lot left to shoot, he like let me just improvise a lot in the talking head.

I doubt they used any of it, but it just was like, it let me relax.

And he was so kind about it.

The big thing that I remember, and part of why I was like excited to do this, is because like I'm not good at staying in touch with people and stuff, but I feel, yeah, that I feel like is important to me to communicate to people who listen to this, which is the level of kindness and hospitality that was extended to me on on that show

was bizarre.

Like, if you're in the late seasons of a TV show that has like such a deep bench of amazing characters and some new person shows up who's gonna suck up even more oxygen, eat up more story time, you know what I mean?

It would be very easy to understand if people were not all that receptive to that, especially if it's someone who's like a rookie who's still just like learning about like, okay, what's an eye line?

How do I like, what's a mark?

You know what I mean?

Like stuff, like just very rookie stuff that I'm having to learn on the go.

Like it would be totally reasonable if people had a kind of professional detachment from that person.

But everyone was so ostentatiously kind to me.

Ostentatious makes it sound bad.

Just generous, kind.

Like you guys were so lovely to me.

You guys were so sweet to me and inclusive.

I remember like, I would just sort of camp out at like Phyllis and Leslie's desk and watch them like shop for, they were both like decorating their houses and they were like.

Yes, she was looking for a gate for like I think two years.

She wanted one, maybe.

We looked at every gate possible.

I just remember basically the, yeah, like gate shopping with Leslie and Phyllis.

And like, they would show me and they would be so nice and joke around with me.

I remember Kate Flannery really went out of her way.

Oscar, all the, and not just in a kind of, again, not just in a perfunctory, like professional way.

They'd invite me to their houses.

You guys would include me in like social stuff.

I just, it was so, it was like the photo negative of what happened to the character Gabe, right?

Like, Gabe is like this

unfortunate, creepy guy who shows up and is immediately and utterly ostracized.

It was like, if, yeah, it was the exact opposite where it's like, oh my God, look at this.

Like this group of people is just like so envelopingly sweet.

So that was life-changing because I was already so fragile and terrified because it was such a new experience.

And I wanted so desperately to do a good job.

And to be met with that kind of

generosity of spirit was, I think, formative for me.

I mean, we loved the character Gabe.

I mean, in re-watching, like, it's Gabe has made us laugh so hard.

But one of the things we've been most excited about doing this podcast is being able to reconnect with these people that were such an amazing chapter of our life.

And you're one of those people.

We've talked about you so much.

We're so happy you're here.

I mean, we

still talked about the gift you brought to my Yankee Swap Christmas party, which was a sarcophagus like jewelry box.

It was the gift that everyone wanted.

I mean, legend gift.

Thank you.

I mean, that's like white elephant stuff is like a real source of anxiety, right?

Because it's like, it feels like a moral spiritual test.

So I'm glad that I passed.

You passed, and I have the sarcophagus.

Yes, it's mine.

Yeah, I went home with it.

Yeah, I have it on my bookshelf.

And it's not cursed or anything, right?

Doesn't seem like it.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, it seems like it.

Dad, you.

I hadn't actively pursued a curse, but if there's a small sarcophagus, the odds that it has some sort of curse feels really high.

It's been good so far.

It's doing great for you.

It is.

It was a heated battle that you won.

I also, off topic here, but in anticipation of talking to you today, I sort of went back through old emails and I have some great photos of you that I sent.

a long, long time ago to you to probably an old email, but they're great.

They're just of you hanging out on set.

So I need to make sure you get those.

I would love that.

Yeah.

I would love that.

Yeah.

Not that I was a creeper taking pictures of you.

We were

other people.

I had a camera in the men's room, which I got a lot of candid snaps.

No.

But I did.

I found a few when we were at shroot farms and they were just great.

So I'm going to make sure you get those.

With Grobin.

Yes, with Josh.

That's really surreal moment.

Like, I'm on a farm with Josh Grobin and like all these people have been watching for years.

It's just such a weird thing.

am I.

Yeah, did someone like dose me with acid and I'm like just back in my

like basement apartment in House Kitchen having like a weird fever dream?

Yeah.

So I watched like your first couple of episodes, which must have been so insane because you're talking about being new and everything.

Right.

So like there's the scene where you enter Dunder Mifflin for the first time and Dwight is holding a giant tray of hot dogs.

And then

Aaron and Andy sing the Sabre song.

Yes.

That is so crazy.

And then the next episode, you're like wrestling some great Danes and you're talking to Kathy Bates.

Kathy Bates.

I know.

That's crazy.

When did they tell you that you would be working with Kathy Bates?

You know, this is not a satisfying answer, but the truth is, again, it's just this sort of like pummeling

of anxiety.

Yeah.

Like, I don't even know.

I felt like I was like being beaten into a happy gang or something.

It was like, just like, it's just like, I don't know, like, Kathy Bates,

like the office, like you're in Atlanta, you're driving, and you're going to be like, it just felt like this kind of like word jumble of like, I don't know.

What's next?

Yeah, I just felt like, like, I don't remember finding it out.

Like, it's like the fog of war.

I'm just like, I don't remember.

Like,

that's very funny.

We were so nervous about Kathy Bates being on set.

Really?

Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

What were you nervous about?

Just that she would tell me.

Just anything, just like making eye contact.

She was such a presence.

And then she was so kind.

I think it was just her stature and her body of work.

And we had avoided for so long having like these big name actors on the show.

And so this was kind of a turning point.

And it was very shocking.

It felt like, you know?

Yeah.

So my hair colorist had once.

colored Kathy Bates hair.

This is Jennis.

And he told me this like years ago, you know, and just, you know, when hairdressers just tell you their lore while they're doing your hair.

And he's like, well, you know, I used to color Kathy Baith's hair.

And, oh, what a woman.

And he just like, so admired her and all this.

He didn't gossip, but he just did name drop that he had colored her hair.

So when I knew she was coming on the show, I had to resist that urge, you know, when.

like the second I saw her not to be like, we have the same hair colorist.

Hi.

I'm Jenna.

Our hair colorist, he colored your hair once.

Welcome to the show.

I'm so because that you suppressed that.

I know that would come just tumbling out of my mouth.

I held it.

I can't remember for how long.

I think I made it several days.

And then I did finally say,

you know, Robert Hicklund, hair colorist?

I think we,

I think he, and oh, yes, Bobby.

Yes, I know him.

Yes, wonderful guy.

We should be best friends now.

Well, that was my next line.

So we are clearly best friends then.

Same hair colorist.

So much in common.

I'm your emergency contact.

Yeah, exactly.

Let me ask you,

because for many people, you are that.

Like, in other words, when people see you, right, it generates the same feelings in them that Kathy Bage generated in you.

So what is the version?

Like when people come up to you guys and are like, actually, did you know that we shared a, you know, whatever, we stay in the same summer.

camp cabin that

like does it feel alienating to you when people do that or does it feel nice or does it just depend on the person like well i guess what i'm asking is like or maybe is it okay to ask you guys guys?

Yeah, yes, please.

What is the version of being approached in a situation like that?

Where maybe it's not just like in the airport, but it's like a situation that has some containment

that feels good to you versus the one that feels like

if you're Kathy Bates, how do you want someone to approach you?

Well, I'll say that I just did the Mean Girls movie musical.

I play the mom.

Yay.

And after I got on the set and I like like was working, I called Angela and I was like, Angela, we are now like the old lady, like the people, like these kids and the crew and stuff, they're treating me like the way we were around like Kathy Bates or around some of these like people who had like the resumes and all that kind of stuff.

I'm like, it's so weird.

And it feels like

it was so bizarre because I I was like, oh, I'm like not at all worthy of your, what do you call it?

Like they're just giving me like, like,

yes, like sort of like, we thank you so much for doing our film.

And the directors were just like, we can't believe we got you.

And I'm like, you can't?

I like, it's the Mean Girls Movie Musical.

I feel like people are lining up to do this.

You're being so overly kind to me.

But I do remember that, like when we would be at an award show, like someone from a television show that we had watched, you get a chance to meet them or they give you an award or something.

You're like, oh my God, I can't believe this person.

I was like, we're the old timers now.

Yeah.

We're the old timers who have been in the biz for a while.

And I actually thought it was really cool.

I'm still very humbled by it all that, you know, that I got to stop timping and

got to,

you know, take the skills I learned from my improv classes and get paid to do something i love it's still very humbling to me that people watch the show enjoy the show want to watch me be silly or whatever it is you know i always feel like i won the lottery so i was still taken aback by it like what you're saying it just i don't think that'll ever go away i'm still i still can't believe i i got to do this you know i wonder if kathy bates had that feeling yeah maybe i i will tell you here's an example of when maybe it's not fun or appropriate i towards the end of my pregnancy, was having some pain and they said, okay, let's get you to the specialist for this special kind of sonogram where they can make sure everything's okay.

I was having a lot of pain in my pelvis.

So I met with this person I've never met before and he's conducting the sonogram.

You know, I'm just like laying there and he's like, so is uh Dwight going to be stopping by?

Oh boy.

Uh-huh.

And I was like, You mean a fictional character I'm in a television show with that is not the father of my baby?

No.

What?

Like, I'm coming to you because I have pain in my pelvis and you're giving me a sonogram and I'm laying here feeling so exposed.

And you asked me, I knew he was like, whole, and he, it had been like 20 minutes.

So he'd been holding on to that.

And then he was just like, when is Dwight stopping by?

So maybe, maybe

here's a tip.

Like if you're in that situation, maybe go bring up the TV show.

Medical professionals in particular should never bring up your celebrity in an exam room well i think that's fair that should that's just a good solid boundary yeah you're probably there because you're worried about something or because that's right and that's right yeah you know what tell me in the lobby tell me in the lobby you need to be you yeah right you need to be who you are and know that that person sees you right you know i think an analogy that i think of all the time is like i'm an adult person and i pay a mortgage and i'm raising two children and and all this stuff.

And yet all the time I feel like a little bit of like,

I can't believe that I am tasked with these adult responsibilities.

Like I can't like young people will look at me and I know that I look like an old person to them, but like inside, I still kind of feel like a flailing 23 year old who doesn't know what they're doing.

So I feel like that's part of it too.

Like when people are approaching me and they're like, oh my God, I love your body of work and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I still feel like the struggling actor who's trying to make it.

Like that's never left me.

I will say like before I was on the show, that blog post you wrote to actors.

Yeah, that I turned into a book later.

Yeah.

But at that point, I think it was just a very

blog post.

Yeah.

Advice to actors.

It was so, because I'd read that a lot multiple times before ever meeting you or being on the on the show.

Oh my gosh, I didn't even know that, Zach.

Yeah, it was so orienting.

I think, because a lot of times, I think when people can feel the distance between how they're perceived and how, and their interior sense of themselves, what you're describing, I think sometimes people's response to that is to try to identify publicly only with the way they're perceived or something.

But I remember for you at that time to share the flailing, to share the kind of blemishy, angsty, unsure kind of experience that you'd had was so helpful because it's so isolating to aspire to something.

Well, I don't know if that's even true.

It's scary to, what am I trying to say?

There's a Cherry Jones, you know, Cherry Jones, the actor Cherry Jones.

She has this quote that I love so much where she says, theaters where we comfort each other with our shortcomings, whereas like, I'll show you mine and you'll see yours reflected and then we'll have a night of laughs and catharsis and whatever.

In a way, like when you wrote that thing, it's like, not that that's shortcomings exactly, but I felt comforted by your vulnerability and by your ownership of that vulnerability because I felt so vulnerable.

So seeing like, oh, wow, someone who I admire, who has a, like, a exciting career and who, you know, is, is willing to be introspective and revealing in this way and expose the, the, the gap between public perception and interior experience, like that for me was really helpful.

Sorry, that's such a long-winded.

I loved every word of that.

No, and I think it's your question too, which is like, we were so in awe of Kathy Bates, but like, maybe Kathy Bates just feels like the same tripping over her own feet

actor that we all feel like when we first start a role or first start a job or whatever.

But we never asked because we just assumed she must be filled with all this confidence and all of this, all of it.

But that also goes back to you, Zach.

You talk about all this anxiety and you're holding these things in Walmart and you can't believe you're on the show.

You were seamlessly a part of our show from the very beginning.

Like, it's kind of blowing my mind that you're telling me that you were anxious or that you even were inexperienced because I knew you had done in the loop, but I assumed like there were all these other things too.

I had no, I really had no idea that the office was your first television job.

Like, and for how just amazing you were,

right?

So just amazing right out of the gate and such a smart improviser.

I know I'm being improv nerd here, but I just love it when people are really smart and say really witty, smart things and don't go for the obvious joke and don't go for too much and are understated and you're all of those things.

And I have loved watching your scenes so much.

And I love going to the script and reading the script and then watching your scenes because you, I think

maybe you and Steve improvise the most.

Honestly, I think if you look at how many episodes you're in and improvise so well, you know, that's very sweet.

I mean, I, yeah, it's so nice.

I, I, I started taking acting classes because I, I, I would hire in between,

like when we'd be shooting, I would go back to New York and I had this acting coach named Anya

Saffir, who's this, who I would go, shout out to Anya Saffer, because I'd never gone to acting school or anything.

So I would go do like scenes from Tennessee Williams plays and like take voice classes and do like Alexander technique and all this shit.

Cause I was like, I just felt, I had such deep imposter syndrome because I hadn't done it before.

So it's a, it's nice to hear that it

wasn't flagrantly obvious.

That's good.

That's a relief.

This is a great segue for us to ask you if you had ever played Abe Lincoln other than on the office.

I'd be sent an audition for Abe Lincoln Vampire Hunter, where I had to learn the Gettysburg Address, and I was not hired to be Abe Lincoln Vampire Hunter.

But other than that, I'd never played Abe Lincoln.

Wait, so Abe Lincoln recited the Gettysburg Address while killing a vampire or being a vampire.

Vampire Hunter.

I think he hunted the vampires.

He hunted the vampires.

But you know how it is with vampires.

You start out hunting them and then

you become one.

Yeah.

I think they just wanted to see people do the Gettysburg Address to see if they were plausible as Lincoln and then they were going to get to the vampire hunting in like a later stage of the casting process or something.

So I did for a while know the Gettysburg Address.

Because you had done that prior to playing Abe Lincoln on the office.

Yeah, I think so.

I see.

Wow.

Yeah.

So there was a small part of you that had played Abe Lincoln, if not for an auditor.

I mean, like, my body had played Abe Lincoln my entire life.

I had the doctor.

I remember Abe Lincoln had something called Marfan syndrome, which is like this, I guess it's like a congenital heart defect or something.

I don't know.

Basically, like the symptoms are your wings span is greater than your height.

And you have something called epectus excavatum, I think, which I have.

It's like this weird divot in your chest.

I remember going to the doctor.

and him being like, oh, Abe Lincoln had Marfan syndrome.

We're going to screen you for it.

And then being just shocked that I didn't have it because I had like all the other.

Yeah, I had like all the symptoms of Abe Lincoln's disease, but not the actual diagnosis.

Not to brag hold your applause.

Oh, what are some of your favorite scenes or moments from the show?

It's funny.

Like, I remember hearing some interview with Mark Rylance, the actor, where he said, like, when you die, probably like the thing that flashes before your eyes isn't the episodes of the shows, but the experience you had making them.

Like, and I think for me, when I think of the show, it's sort of a gauzy feeling of like, I remember lunch a lot.

I remember like hanging out with people like in between setups and stuff.

In terms of scenes, like I think it took me a while till after I was off the office when I started to be able to really enjoy scenes because I didn't feel like, oh, God, what if I fuck this up?

Right, right.

You could be an audience member and watch it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I really liked stuff where I liked getting into fights with Ed Helms.

I thought that was fun.

I liked witnessing Ed Helms.

I looked online to see what are the fan favorite quotes of Gabe.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

And I share one of them

with the internet.

So I loved so much in Search Committee when you just start asking him questions about the sun, and then Andy knows all this information about the sun.

And you say, shut up about the sun.

Shut up about the sun.

So that made it as one of best Gabe quotes.

It's also one of mine.

Here's another one.

Walk away, bitch.

Oh, yeah, that was to Andy, right?

Yeah, that's to Andy.

I remember that.

And then this is one I forgot, and I actually had to go and re-watch the episode.

We haven't gotten to it yet, Jenna.

It's from Turf War.

And Gabe says, sometimes I wonder if I have ovaries in my scrotum because I am great at girl talk.

Jesus Christ.

That's the most upsetting.

Sorry, America.

That's the most upsetting phrase I've ever heard.

Oh, my gosh.

And the other one was, there are plenty of people who love touching me.

Oh, I remember that scene.

That's heartbreaking.

That's when Kelly hugs Gabe.

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When we were re-watching Search Committee,

it's Toby, Gabe, and Jim are the search committee, and you got to interview all of those amazing

actors doing the cameos.

Are there any that stood out to you?

I remember Will Arnett would do this thing where he would sort of start improvising.

Like he'd be joking around in this way that was so unbelievably funny in between takes.

And then when they would call action, it was sort of like just continue in a way.

I remember being like, oh, wow, that's fascinating.

Like he's kind of in a, it doesn't stop in between cut and action.

He's like kind of, not in a tiring way.

You know, there's people who are like on in a way.

It wasn't like that.

It was just like he was sort of in this, it was like he was keeping it like simmering or something.

It was, I remember being fascinated by that.

Yeah.

And I remember feeling like immediately like Ray Romano.

I just want to like rest my head on his shoulder.

He was like so warm and sweet.

And I really loved him.

And then I also like, it was fun.

I remember we like interview people from the office, which was fun to do.

Like

your interview of Mindy as Kelly was really funny.

And I think it's in the bloopers because Gabe decides that, oh, maybe I'm going to be the voice of reason here.

And he looks at Jim and Toby when Kelly walks in and goes, We don't really need to go through all this, do we?

And we're not, we're not, this isn't like a serious interview, right?

And they both just throw you under the bus.

And Toby's like, no, I think we, it is serious.

And then Gabe says to Kelly, what are your weaknesses?

And Kelly goes, I don't have any ass.

Something like that.

But you you guys, you could tell that Mindy was like breaking, you know, and just the whole scene is so funny.

I imagine there's a lot of great bloopers from that day.

Yeah.

I mean, and by that point, I guess that was late enough in the shooting process where I felt like my blood pressure had dropped incrementally a little bit.

And I was able to, that looked like you were having fun.

I remember enjoying those scenes more where I was like, okay, like, I think after they brought me back.

for another season, I thought like, well, if they were horrified, they wouldn't have done that.

And that really put me at ease where I just thought, okay, well, if they've decided they want me here, then

it's their funeral.

I can't, you know, I'll take it.

The other thing, when I looked up the character Gabe and I did like an image search, one of the first things that comes up is Gabe as Lady Gaga.

Yeah.

That costume was,

oh my gosh.

I just remember you were in hair and makeup for so long.

Yeah.

You had the eyelashes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've never felt more like myself

on set.

I think that, you know, I never walked in high heels before.

I don't know where they found high heels my size.

What was your shoe size?

11 and a half, a modest 11 and a half.

We're not, you know.

But it was,

I don't know if you guys know this, extremely hard to walk.

We have an idea.

What?

Yeah, yeah.

I know.

No man has ever told you this.

It was so hard to move.

I couldn't believe it.

I was like, wait, people do this for hours at a time?

It's kind of insane.

It's ridiculous when you you think about it.

It's like, I'm going to design a shoe where you're up on your tippy toes.

Now go walk all day.

Not just that.

So many high heels, they're made for a foot where you just have one long center toe.

Yes, it's true.

It's like not even the shape of your foot.

Which luckly I do have.

That is awesome.

I have a long center toe.

That was also an Abraham Lincoln.

Yes, that's one of the symptoms of Arvan syndrome.

Just a single long toe.

In terms of volume, it's the same volume as five toes, but just it's

in length.

Yes, exactly.

All right.

We have one other question we've been curious about.

The great Danes.

You had to work a lot with these giant dogs.

Was there anything like any memory from working with those dogs?

Yeah, they were like frustratingly professional.

Really?

Yeah.

I was like, you know, with a dog, you just want to like rub your face and their snout.

You just want to be like, oh, I love you.

You're beautiful.

You're a miracle.

And they were just like, we're working.

They just were so focused.

They had that like working dog thing where they were just like not screwing around.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I was like, no snuggles, no snuggles.

I was like, spoon me, Grantine.

And they're like, no, thank you.

No, thank you, strange human.

It's not working.

Yeah.

I was like, it truly was like, they were like, you ever meet like one of those former child stars who's been like working from the time they were three and they're like, where's my light?

Okay.

I just need a little bit of eyebrow pencil and let's go.

You know,

there's people who are just like, they were like that, but just the canine version.

Yeah.

Do you share Gabe's love of horror films?

No.

I mean, I like some horror movies, but not really.

What I do love is I really like wake-up pranks.

Do you guys know about wake-up pranks?

No.

Do you wake up someone in a horrible manner?

Yeah, it's like people waking up their friends in mean ways.

Oh, no.

And people get scared.

And I think it's very funny and very mean.

And there's one where they're like, this guy's asleep.

I guess they got like fast food.

They're in a van.

This guy's asleep.

He's got like a burger on his lap, but he fell asleep before he ate his burger.

And I think there's like a truck with one of those, it's like one of those trucks that pulls cars behind it.

So it looks like the car is facing.

Oh, yeah, like the vehicle.

You could mistake it as an oncoming vehicle.

Right, right.

So this guy's asleep.

So everyone in the car decides to wake up, prank him.

And what they do is they swerve and scream all at the same time.

And he wakes up and he sees this car in front of him.

And he thinks, you know, this is it.

And he screams and he just squeezes the hell out of his burger.

He just squeezes this burger so hard.

And then they show it in slow-mo.

It's just like face contorting and him squeezing the burger.

It's so fun.

It's very mean and I don't think it's right, but it is very funny.

And then I also like close call videos where it's like, I can't stand like fail videos where people get hurt.

I can't stand it.

But close call videos are like.

Oh, when someone almost falls, yes.

It's the best.

It's the best.

Like, I haven't seen the videos, but I will tell you, I have a memory I will never forget.

I was in the Dallas-Fort Worth airport and there was this long corridor that we were all walking down right and there's a woman coming kind of swimming upstream against all of us

she was clearly very late for her flight

and she is running I'm talking a full sprint with like trying to juggle a carry-on but a full sprint and she's in wedge flip-flops And she is running and we can see her from so far in this corridor and she's running and the front of her flip-flop bends forward under her foot.

And then she lurches forward, and then she tries to overcompensate.

She lurches back, and she did it.

She did it for probably, it felt like 10 minutes.

It was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

And we were all so invested.

It was like,

I don't know, 80 strangers.

And we're like, is she going down?

What do we do?

And then she, right before she face planted, she pulled herself up.

Yeah.

And we were all like, ah, and she ran past us.

I'll never forget it.

Oh my God.

I've seen videos.

Have you seen the videos of someone who's like slipping on ice for like a very long time?

It's like that.

Slum lady.

Yes.

Like that's what it feels like to be a person is to be just like a prolonged ice slip that seems to never stop.

And when it turns out good, right?

I'm so relieved.

And it, but there's so many, and you can watch in the compilations.

It's like people like their kid almost like is riding a bike and almost runs into something and they swoop in and grab him.

Or it's like, it's just like humans evading disaster is like the best.

Have you seen the videos of people who they're scaring someone?

Yes.

But they're doing it by pretending that they're scared of something themselves.

Yes.

And then the other person runs away.

Yes.

They're brilliant.

So like there's like a woman and she's like taking out the trash with her husband and she opens up the trash can and then she's like,

and then he loses, he hasn't even seen anything.

And then

just like the firefly responds.

But the psychology behind it to me is so interesting because it's like, it's like, I share fear with you.

Yeah.

We share that.

But the one person's just pretending.

And the other person.

I know.

It's really fascinating.

I kind of want to try it out.

You should try it.

It's a cheap prank.

All you have to do is act scared.

There's one more I have to say because these are now fascinating me.

You might like it.

So there's the other one where you're in a group like your family and you pick someone and you say like, I learned we're going to do a magic trick.

I'm going to make you visible.

And you put a sheet over them and then you like say some magic words and then you pull the sheet off and everyone in the room has agreed to pretend that the person is invisible.

Oh, that's amazing.

It's always the mom.

They always do it to the mom, right?

And then, so then they pull the sheet off and then everyone's like, no way.

Holy, oh my god, and then the person's like, What?

Oh my god, what?

What?

What?

You can't, I don't get it.

That's amazing.

Also, the fact that it's the mom, like an invisible mom.

I feel like so many moms in family dynamics are just the invisible caretaker.

Already they're already invisible.

It's like that,

that SNL sketch at Christmas.

Everyone's saying, I got a piano.

And the mom goes, and I got a robe.

And that's all she got.

And it's like over and over, but I got a car.

I got a robe.

Also, at the end, they're like, wait a second.

What's this secret pile of presents?

And the mom's like, oh.

And they're like, it's presents for the dog.

And then the dog gets a robe as well.

I think I'm going to watch the one of particularly the one where they're scared, where they act scared.

Yes.

You see.

It's very fun.

It's, I cannot wait.

It's so interesting.

It's so interesting that people like, share fear.

It's fascinating.

I heard that, I don't even know if this is true.

This could just be something like I am am basically making up, but that like laughter, like the origins of laughter, is it was like a way that like monkeys could tell each other that a perceived danger was no longer a threat.

Like, so basically, it's like, okay, we're a bunch of monkeys.

Like, we think we see a tiger.

Everyone gets tense.

And then I realize, oh, it's not a tiger.

It's something that looked like a tiger, but it isn't a tiger.

Then we all laugh.

And it's a way of quickly dispersing the information that what seemed to be threatening is in fact not a threat.

So it's like this rolling sound that lets everyone know.

It's like a fire drone reverse it like it makes so much sense right and then also it makes so much sense why comedy is something we're drawn to watch and that like it soothes us it's a real you know that's interesting yes yes i mean like i remember when i injured my back when i broke my back and i watched the larry sanders show me and creed and jenna one night in her hotel room binged the larry sanders show and like that laughter like it brings you relief yeah right and maybe it goes all the way back to that.

Just a bunch of monkeys releasing some

there's no tiger.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's our whole show is just, I'm very scared of what Michael Scott is going to say or do right now.

Okay.

All right.

All right.

All right.

I think that's right.

It's like tension, cringe, release.

Okay.

Set up tension punchline.

Like, yeah.

I don't know if, again, I could, that could be total malarkey, but I mean, it tracks.

I've been really into, there's a show about animals on Netflix, and we watch the the one about dogs it's so good yeah and dogs do this little sniffy snorty thing when they're you know how they play fight and it's to let the other dog know that i'm not serious and they so if you hear your dog and now my little two chihuahua rescues when they play i hear it they go

really and it's like it's like i'm i'm i'm just having fun That must be so hard on dogs who like want to be aggressive but have allergies where they're like trying to like really like big dog another dog and they're just like, yeah, like a pug, like a pug can never be taken seriously when he's trying to like

be aggressive

i'm actually angry i really mean it guys like no you don't no you don't you're being silly that's funny

do you get recognized as gabe sometimes yeah it happens and what what is that like i had a really bad one recently because i saw like so i'm making the show now this like stop motion show and in it there's a like a lactation station you know that they have at the airport and we were getting designs for them and i was like oh i want something really simple and i was in an airport there was an empty lactation station and i wanted to send a picture to the production designer to be like this is what we're going for this is perfect example right

so i started to take a picture of the lactation station as someone came up to me and was like hey man you were gabe on the office now it's not lost on me that gabe is a in many ways quite a creepy character yeah and so this guy just saw me by myself in an airport photographing a lactation station like a true predator from hell.

I mean, like, that's an insane thing to do, right?

To take a picture.

Like from, he has no context.

And if I say, this is for a show.

This is the first show.

That sounds even worse.

It's like, it's for a show, really, buddy.

Like, and so it was, that was a truly mortifying, where I'm like.

He must think I'm like, that Gabe is like a toned down version of me based on

that experience.

But yeah, people, people sometimes will recognize me from the show.

So after the office, you did Silicon Valley.

You've done all these other things.

Do you still get approached more for being on the office or for other roles or is it pretty 50-50?

I'd say it's like probably 50-50 with the office than then everything else I've ever done.

So it's like the single thing may be more.

Well, I don't know.

Silicon Valley, yeah, it's probably like around 50-50.

It depends.

It's like demographically specific.

Yeah.

You know?

And it's interesting.

Like, if it's younger people, it's probably the office.

If it's like really young people, I think it's so sweet to me me that kids find it so comforting.

It's a kind of emotional wallpaper.

Like people who've watched it a million times will turn it on as a way of feeling like they're kind of among their friends or in a kind of soothing, warm, silly environment.

I think it's so sweet.

And so it's like nice when it's like some, you know, whatever 19-year-old who's immersed in the Scranton paper industry

fictional world.

I think that's so sweet.

I like that.

Have you re-watched the show?

Some of it.

I hate watching anything I'm in, so not that stuff.

But I'd already watched the show so much when I came on.

Like I would re-watch the show a lot before I was on the show, but I haven't done like the wall-to-wall rewatch.

We hadn't either.

This is the first time for us.

I'd seen episodes here and there.

We've talked about that.

But this is really our first time to see some of these episodes in a long time since they aired.

Does it feel like...

Does watching the show feel like you're looking at a photo album of your friends and your life in a way?

Or does it feel like you can sort of suspend disbelief and get lost in the like story of the show?

Like, are you able to invest in the fictional reality of the show when you're watching it?

I think so.

Because of the passage of time, it's both things.

So, I have a lot of nostalgic thoughts and feelings.

I get really sentimental when I'm watching it.

I remember parts of my life that were happening when we were making those episodes.

I miss people when I watch it.

But I can also, when I watch it, what's weird is I have images of all the things you can't see in the episode.

So like I can

feel Brian Whittle holding his boom above my desk in a scene when I'm watching the rewatch.

You know, I can like feel where, oh, I thought Video Village was over in the conference room for this one and Kelly's shouting out some safety meeting.

So it's like all of the behind the camera stuff pops into my head as well.

But then at the same time, I have found myself getting invested in the characters.

Like I personally feel that Aaron is not the one for Andy.

Not at all.

I am getting angry.

It's being shoved down my throat that I'm being told that they're the perfect couple when I actually feel like Andy is thriving with his current girlfriend.

Jessica.

Jessica

is great.

I like Jessica.

Yeah.

You know?

So I don't know.

So I do, I have like some fan reactions when I watch the show as well.

What about you, Ange?

Oh, I mean, I think you said that so well.

That's exactly how I feel.

It's both for me.

It's a photo album and I'm in the audience and I kind of switch back and forth.

I have really strong memories of episodes, you know, when things were happening in my life.

And I watch it with that layer.

Wow.

So it's not even just the environment of the set, but it's the environment of your life at that time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's fascinating.

It was.

what, nine years of our life and, you know, babies were born and family members passed away.

And it's a lot of life happens in nine years.

And I just watched that play out through this other filter of being a character.

It's kind of, it's really surreal.

That's trippy.

Yeah.

A friend of mine said to me, I was like talking about some, maybe New York or something.

And she goes, well, places aren't places as much as they're times.

Like when you think of a place, often you're thinking of a time.

And so it's not necessarily the geography of the place, but it's the sort of psychic place you were in in your life, right?

Like where what was happening or who you were at that time.

So it's so interesting that it's this show where you're being somebody different, like you're playing a different person, but also you were a different person in your life at that time, right?

Like the circumstances of your life were different, your relationships were different, everything was different.

Can I ask just like one more?

I'm just like,

for you guys, if there's something like you guys could go back and tell yourselves, like in that Our Town style, like, what would you, like, if you could go back to like season one and visit with you, like as your own like fairy godmother or ghost of Christmas future future or whatever.

Like what would you say?

Or maybe that's too hard a question.

Hmm.

I would say I think there are a lot of ways that I know how to advocate for myself professionally now that I had to really learn on the go.

And I feel like in some cases, I even got like some bad advice.

You know, there were ways where like as you're, as you're kind of an up-and-coming actor and maybe you're suddenly on this hit show, there are a lot of people that have ideas for for you professionally.

And I was just happy being on the office.

I didn't need an and.

I didn't need to also have a product line or also be a movie star.

And yet I felt the energy coming at me, telling me I needed to do all this more.

And I think in some ways, you know, I would do the TV show and then I would spend my hiatus doing all the more that everyone was telling me that I wanted and that I had to do and that this is what you do next.

And the truth is, is I just wanted to spend my hiatus traveling and enjoying my life and being in love.

And sometimes I look back on that time and I think, wow, I was just too busy doing a bunch of things that I felt like were expected of me.

But my truth was, I just want to be on this TV show.

I love it.

I'm happy.

This is enough.

And it took me a really long time to get to a place where i didn't let other people's idea of what my life should be like i figured out what my ambition is in life

but i spent a lot of years

i don't know i mean i don't i don't necessarily regret any of those movies or any of those experiences or any of those things but i think it's a life lesson coming to a place where you're like well what's enough for me is okay yes that's right

want or need things other people need need?

What I need is enough, and that's okay.

Yeah.

And I think it's even still shocking to people when I say, no, the podcast is enough.

I enjoy this.

I like concentrating on it.

I like this being my one thing.

I think maybe that's me.

Maybe I'm like a monogamous worker.

Like I have a job I like to do, and that's the job I like to do and fully and I enjoy it.

And then I like to put it away.

Like I don't need a lot of ands.

I don't.

So that's a great.

I wish I could have like told myself to trust that more in me.

It's so noisy, probably, when you, right?

Like, and if all of a sudden you're on the show and it's a success and it's the cacophony of that and all of the

projection that it cooks up and everything.

I think that

there's a lot of like fear-based sort of communication in that, too, which is like, well, listen, if you don't do this now, it's not going to be there later.

No one's going to want you later if you don't do this now.

Right.

Or you won't work later if you're not working working now or any of it, you know?

And so you're like, oh my God, yeah, oh yeah, I don't, I don't want this to go away.

So it's very, it can be kind of confusing what to do with that.

And then, of course, I had spent 10 years not working at all.

So you're like, yeah, yeah, I don't want, I mean, I don't want to go back to that, I guess.

So I don't know.

Yeah.

I think for me, I would look back and just tell myself, I'm going to be just fine.

I think I was

just worried that I wasn't going to be everything I was thought I should be and that I don't need to be anything other than just okay with myself.

That's what I think.

It's interesting how similar it's sort of like success on somebody else's terms is not success.

And success on your own terms doesn't have to look like somebody else's or like the sort of consensus aspiration, right?

It's like you,

and to be like, I'm basically I'm enough.

Who I am is enough.

What I want is enough.

I think, and that was something in that blog post that made an impression on me when I read it too, which is, I think, I don't remember the exact phrasing, but it's basically like, don't postpone joy.

Don't make a certain kind of professional success a prerequisite for participating in your own life.

That's my recollection.

Yeah.

Well, that was a thing when you're a struggling actor, especially you're like, well, I can't go to my friend's wedding because I might get a callback for a thing that I auditioned for.

So I need to be here or whatever it is.

It's like, well, I don't want to have a boyfriend because I don't want to be distracted.

There's like all these limits and all these superstitions that you have as an artist because you are holding the art as the only thing, the only aspiration.

And so what I found was, oh my gosh, the material and characters that I saw at that wedding and the life experience I got from going to that thing is just going to feed my art.

So it's like, you can't do art if you're just doing art.

I think you have to have a whole life in order to feed it.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And an identity that's like where your self-esteem is a little bit more

diversified.

In other words, if your whole worth originates from your ability to do this one thing and you're not doing that one thing, then you're kind of.

Then who are you?

Yeah, exactly.

So like to have like, if you're like, oh, yeah, I'm not just an actor, I'm someone's mom, or I'm someone's,

you know, or I'm, or not someone's, I am a mom.

I am a bicycle enthusiast.

I am a whatever, a volunteer.

I, you know, then you, then it's not like, oh, when I'm auditioning for a part, I'm auditioning for my self-worth.

It's like, I'm just auditioning for the part.

It's like, yeah, which is hard enough

or daunting enough.

That makes sense.

That's beautiful.

What about you, Zach?

What would you go back and tell yourself?

Get a basket at Walmart if you're going to be carrying that many humidifiers.

I was basically like a walk-in close call video.

I think what I tell myself is something similar.

It's like, it's an interesting.

I don't know.

Let me think for a second.

I think I probably would try to tell myself, and I probably wouldn't be able to hear it, but like, you don't need so much fear to protect you.

You know what I mean?

Like, I think I used anxiety as a kind of, as a motivator and as a kind of protection, where I sort of felt like, well, if I'm buying enough humidifiers and running my lines enough times and freaking out enough, then surely I'm doing everything in my power to do a good job.

And if I don't do that, then I'm going to be kind of culpable if it doesn't go well.

I think if I could go back and say,

like,

when you're doing all of that, it has more to do with, like, it's more neurotic than artistic.

You know what I mean?

It's not, that actually isn't serving the, it's not really, hopefully it doesn't hurt the character or the work, but it's, it's about something different.

That's more about like your childhood than it is about the job you're doing.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And so I think if I could be like, don't mistake your neuroses for your artistic process.

Like develop an artistic process independent of

that as much as possible so that you're not just reenacting your own like cuckoo bird story again and again at work like tell a new story at work tell someone else's story at work you know what i mean like i think you i think you did hear it because i think just the fact that you recognize it that even though i mean i took a minute

took many minutes what was your second question Oh, yes.

Second question is like, did you have a moment where you felt that kind of like, because so often I think when you get the thing that you want, it doesn't feel the way you thought it'd feel, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Like the behind the music kind of like thing.

Was there a moment, though, where you had that kind of like shimmering magic feeling, like where you're like, looked around and you were like,

oh my God,

like that moment where you're just like the sort of the gift of it, where you felt like really wholly present in it and able to just enjoy it?

Like, do you remember the either the first or the most intense version of that for you guys?

The first one for me was when we were shooting the pilot on the first day, and

our director, Ken Kwapas, said, I want to do 30 minutes of all of you all just working in this space.

Do your job, and we're just going to come around and silently

document you like a documenter.

We're going to set the tone of this show.

All right, go ahead.

And I will never forget that 30 minutes of,

first of all, there was silence because nobody really knew what to

And then I feel like it was Phyllis picked up her phone and like hit some buttons and started a fake phone call.

And then I started to hear buttons over the partition and accounting.

And then everybody just started being their character

and pretending like we worked at a paper company, like all together.

And I was like,

the theater nerd in me was delighted.

And I thought,

I am a part of something very special.

And I don't know what's going to happen from here, but

this is pretty dang cool.

Wow.

The sound.

It just sounds like an orchestra tuning up right before.

Like, here we go.

We're about to play.

Like, wow, that's so exciting.

I really felt that.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, I loved that so much.

For me, there's so many moments that felt like that.

And they were almost always always in the conference room because we were all in there together and we were all each other's background.

We were all in the moment.

And so many times I would have a minute where I was in the scene, but then I would step out of my body and I would just watch these amazing actors.

just fire off all these lines and everyone had their own character backstory and I just would be there in awe being like this is so cool this is so cool and I get to do do this.

And there were times my character didn't even have lines, but I just couldn't believe I was in the moment.

There was a scene where Michael Scott is brainstorming animal hybrids

and

no one is saying anything.

And Steve had his scripted lines, but then he started to just, they just let the camera roll and he just kept improvising animal hybrids.

And we all just had to sit there and look at him where he was like head of an owl, body of a walrus, like whatever it was he was saying.

And we were just all patiently looking at him.

And then one by one, people started to file out like they were over it.

And I just remember being like, this is one of, this is the coolest.

Like, this is the coolest.

And I can't believe I get to do it.

It's so sweet that in both your cases, it's sort of like, it's not the kind of grand slam scene for your character.

It's just the scene where you're able to kind of like behold the.

the majesty of this working situation, right?

Where you're like, it's about watching it and participating, but not in a way that foregrounds you.

It's just a,

I think like being a small part of a big thing is like the best feeling ever, right?

Like feeling like you're part of a squad that like is like, that's such an exciting thing.

So it's interesting in both of you guys, it was kind of like that feeling of like, oh, I'm part of this when everyone starts improvising the filing out and Michael's still doing his animals,

right?

Or everyone's sort of slowly coming into the joining,

showing up for the first time in the fictional office in a way.

It was such a smart thing that Ken did by doing that exercise with us because we didn't start with a scene.

Like we didn't start with, okay, Steve Corell, our lead character, Michael Scott, is going to do a scene.

He made every single one of us equally important in the very first thing we shot.

Wow.

You know, nobody had any lines, but everyone was in character.

And you really felt how, okay, so whatever scene is going on, this is also always going on.

So now we're going to do a scene, but don't forget, you all are still working in this office and you always have to be.

It was really genius.

That's cool.

I didn't, I think I missed that.

It was the first, literally the first thing you shot.

The very first thing.

That was brilliant.

Ever.

Yeah.

First time the cameras rolled, right?

Yeah.

I know.

Just give everyone a chance to kind of, it's sort of what John did for me when I did that little talking head where it was like, okay, just like, I mean, that's different because I was like talking, but I just mean like giving a lot of space.

Yes.

Even though it was, even that's costly.

You're making a pilot.

Like time is money, everything, right?

Like, but just to be like, we got time, we got space, just exist.

And I also think because it was kin, the very first time we were all in a room and we were all going to be these characters, no one yelled action.

He just said, go ahead.

Oh, that's nice.

Because that's Kin, right?

So he just said, go ahead.

So it was just like this very.

slow, comfortable easing into this world.

Did you ever see that John Cazelle documentary?

I knew it was.

Do you know John Kazelle, the guy who played Fredo?

He was like in five movies, and they were all like the best.

He was like the Deer Hunter, Godfather Wanted Two, The Conversation.

He died when he was a young man, but they made a documentary about him because he did these like incredible movies, and that's it.

He just did these and then the theater and stuff.

But Al Pacino, he was in Dog Day Afternoon.

Al Pacino told these stories where they'd be like shooting on film and they would start.

rolling and Al Pacino would be all kind of coiled up and do his line.

And he said this guy, John Castell would just be like, what'd you do this weekend, Al?

And he'd hear the film moving through the camera and he'd be like,

I don't know, I like made dinner with my girlfriend on Saturday.

Oh, yeah, what'd you make?

Oh, we made a rigatoni.

And, you know, oh, yeah.

What'd you do after that?

And like, just talk until like Al Pacino settled down.

And then he'd just say like the first line of the scene where it's like he would just sort of get them in a place of like, oh, we're just here.

We're just here with each other.

And then slowly sort of introduce the dialogue, which is like such a ballsy, ballsy crazy thing to do yes when the 35 millimeter film is running through a camera but i just was like it sounds like it in a version of that right where it's just like go ahead yeah go ahead we're not yeah it's not ready sick hit your adding machine a few times yeah that's nice yeah i feel bad i feel like i've now no extended your

okay i i love this so much it's just made my heart so happy me too yeah and i really yeah i can't say it enough like it's it's a real talent i don't have which is like to maintain like you know, did you ever see those like Richard Link later, the like before sunset, before sunrise?

I love those movies.

But that's sometimes what like shooting feels like to me, where it's like this like very discreet, specific experience of like real, like big emotion, intimacy, connection.

And then you're like, off to your lives.

And you don't, to me, it often feels that way, where it's like, it's like this amazing one-night stand or something, except it happened to be a two-year stand.

But

and so I feel like I've kind of lost touch with you know you guys and this larger squad, but I can just never say enough how much it meant that everyone was so kind.

I just, in a way that you guys stood to gain nothing from that.

I had nothing to offer you.

And in a way, I could have been

either an ear, like I could have been a

problem in that it's like another mouth to feed on this big show.

Like, but that was not how I was received.

And that really set the tone for the rest of my working life thus far and it's so i just yeah i don't know i i just wanted i felt when when i when you guys kindly invited me on i was like i want to say to people i want people who like the show to know how kind the people who worked on the show were and are you know you know i think we were happy zach like we were a happy cast we were a happy crew and we just knew like there's enough to go around for everyone

there just is there always is in good comedy and good art.

You do not need to be stingy.

You know, it's a collective.

It is.

And it was an abundant universe.

And I think we all looked at it that way.

We always felt like we won the lottery.

We always talk about that.

And I think everyone felt that way.

So why not share it?

A lot of lottery winners hire like private security and like a bunch of Dobermans and shit.

You guys are like, you know, you guys are like the good lottery winners.

Zach, thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you for having me.

It was really fun.

What are you doing now that we can tell people about?

I'm making this stop motion show that actually Greg Daniels is like he's it's his company but it's is one of the producers on it's a it's a stop motion show about an NPR host so I'm doing that right now and that'll come out are you the voice of the NPR host yeah amazing you'll have to let us know when it comes out and where people can find it and we're going to share it oh that's so sweet yeah but anyway thanks for having me on it was really a treat it's so nice to reconnect with you guys to see you love you, Zach.

Yeah, you too.

Thank you for listening to Office Ladies.

Office Ladies is produced by Earwolf, Jenna Fisher, and Angela Kinsey.

Our senior producer is Cassie Jerkins.

Our in-studio engineer is Sam Kiefer.

Our editing and mixing engineer is Jordan Duffy.

And our associate producer is Ainsley Bubbico.

Our theme song is Rubber Tree by Creed Bratton.

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