Todd Packer

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I'm Jenna Fisher.

And I'm Angela Kinsey.

We were on The Office together and we're best friends.

And now we're doing the Ultimate Office Rewatch podcast just for you.

Each week, we will break down an episode of The Office and give exclusive behind-the-scenes stories that only two people who were there can tell you.

We're the office ladies.

Hello.

Hi there.

This is season seven, episode 18, Todd Packer.

I mean, it's pretty cool if your character gets its own episode.

Like, I would have loved an episode called Angela Martin.

You're so right.

Right?

Pam Beasley.

Kaboom.

Well, this is Todd Packer.

Yeah, it is.

It was written by Amelie Gillette, directed by Randall Einhorn.

Here's your summary.

The gang is upset when traveling salesman Todd Packer is offered a permanent sales position in the office.

It causes such contempt that Dwight and Jim join forces to oust him.

Meanwhile, Andy really, really wants a new computer.

I mean, yeah.

Real bad.

He is very envious that Pam bought a new one for the reception desk.

Before we jump into fast facts, I just have to share something with everyone.

What is it?

Jenna was the first person here today at Earwolf, and apparently she found the thermostat

because it was pretty chilly today.

And Jenna cranked it.

I mean, is it too warm?

It's balmy in here.

Like my glass has a little bit of like a frosty scent.

I'm loving it.

I feel like when you go to a restaurant and they're like, don't worry, we have a heat lamp on the patio.

And then they sit you right under it and you're like,

should we turn it down?

I can't believe I'm saying that.

I can't believe it.

It feels like when you go into like a movie and it's so warm, you go, whoa, I'll be sleeping through this.

Oh, no.

Oh, no.

I'm sorry.

I was so cold when I got here.

This is going to be sleepy, Todd Packer.

Anyway, let's get into some fast facts.

Fast fact number one.

This episode aired on February 24th, 2011.

and this is the first script by new writer Amelie Gillette.

Before joining the office, she worked for the online magazine The AV Club, and each week they wrote a review of our office episodes after they aired live.

Did she have to write her own review?

No.

Also, when she worked there, she did not write the reviews, but she did write an article about the 2007 office convention.

And when Amelie joined the office, the AV Club put this little note on their website that I thought was really charming.

Okay.

Here's what it says.

In case you haven't heard, big ups are due to the lovely and talented Ms.

Amelie Gillette, who will be joining the writing staff of the office.

Any of our TV club regulars will tell you they have no intention of giving the show higher ratings just to suck up to her and maybe get a television writing gig of their own.

They'll tell you that, but I won't.

I preemptively declare all Amelie Gillette episodes of the office to be an A-plus rating or higher.

Aw.

And then they went on to say: Longtime readers also know that Nathan Rabin has traditionally covered The Office for TV Club.

You'll also notice he's not anymore.

We felt that anyone who is friends with Amelie should no longer write about the show.

So we've brought in TV critic scholar and office fan Miles McNutt, who we're sure will do an excellent job and never befriend Amelie.

He had to stay unbiased.

Yes.

Yeah.

Please welcome him and keep your comments section hazing to a minimum.

So Miles McNutt did write a review of Todd Packer.

Okay.

He gave it a B minus.

Okay.

He really liked Jim and Dwight banding together.

He liked the Kevin storyline.

He liked Pam and Andy and all of that.

He basically liked the episode.

I mean, I read the review, but here's the thing.

Why the B minus?

Yeah, he doesn't like Todd Packer.

Oh, well, then

that's a tough episode to review.

If Todd Packer is your least favorite character,

he literally said he doesn't like Todd Packer or any episodes that feature his character, B minus.

Oh.

Well, there was more of Todd Packer in the shooting draft.

Oh, no.

You might have gotten a C.

I'm going to share it today.

Miles, you might not like this podcast episode if we share more Todd Packer.

Yep.

Well, if you're looking for more Dave Kechner, I can help you out with Fast Fact Number Two.

Okay.

Dave Kechner, of course, played Todd Packer.

Oh, yes.

Thank you, Angela.

This is a fan question from Ella S in Washington, who said,

I believe the actor who played Todd Packer auditioned first to play Michael Scott.

Did he get a callback for this side character because he was such a good actor?

Well, Ella, you are correct.

He did originally audition for the role of Michael Scott.

Dave was at a fan expo in Boston, and he spoke about auditioning for Michael Scott, and also about the fact that he was not even the original Todd Packer.

Oh, yeah.

I remember that.

I had auditioned for The Office, but they were using the same pilot episode from the British Office and just changed some American references.

I was a huge fan of the British version of The Office.

So when I'm reading for Michael's part, part, I can't get past Ricky Gervais

way he did it.

Like I can't think of anything else.

So I didn't get it, obviously.

So then I went on to work on something else.

They were on episode three of the first season.

They had hired an actor and it just wasn't working.

So they went on and they started shooting the fourth episode thinking, we'll go back to this.

I didn't audition for that part because I was out of town shooting Snakes on a Plane.

You're welcome.

So I get back to town.

I've known Steve Carell since 1990.

I get back to town and Steve tells to Greg Daniels, why not Kechner?

Well, there's a reason, a million reasons why not, but they ignored all of those and hired me anyway.

But something like that is in my wheelhouse.

It's very easy for me to play and I love it.

If you think about it, Todd Packer is like

You're invited to someone's very nice house.

They've drawn you a nice bath.

and you get in that bathtub and you splash out all the water.

You dirty all their towels and walk out naked where they're having a children's party in the house.

That's what it's like to play Todd Packer.

I could hear Kate Flannery's laugh.

Kate Flannery was on the stage with him.

Yeah.

So Angela, I think something we haven't talked about before is that there was an actor cast in the role of Todd Packer.

Yeah.

We shot for a couple days with him in the first season, and it just was not clicking.

Right.

And they recast him with Dave Kechner.

And now he's got a whole episode.

Now he has a whole episode.

And the minute, you know, to Dave's credit, the minute he walked on stage, he was Todd Packer.

He was.

We were like, oh my God.

It's like you knew Rain would be Dwight.

You know?

Yes.

You knew Dave Kechner would be Todd Packer.

Well, moving on to fast fact number three, I've got, you know, a little nerdy production speak coming your way.

You know, I love it.

I love it.

I love it when you geek out.

Randy Cordre told me that this episode was a bottle show.

The name of this is called bottle show.

Look how tickled you are just saying bottled show.

You're so tickled.

Tell us what a bottle show is.

A bottle show is a Hollywood television term for an episode that basically stays within its established sets.

It doesn't have very many guest roles.

It has very minimal stunts, minimal special effects, minimal visual effects.

They are the least expensive episodes to produce in a season.

Did we have to have so many bottle episodes a season for our budget?

Yes, Angela.

Randy explained the budget process to me, which, again,

I was geeking out.

He said that the studio gave us a master budget each season, and it was a huge number.

They had to allocate it for the whole year for each episode.

Yeah.

He would have to meet with our production accountant who was named Carolyn Hayes.

I remember Carolyn.

Yes.

And our UPM, Steve Burgess and Randy, they would all sit down together and they would have to divide the budget into all the different categories that they had to pay for for a particular episode.

And that included salaries for all the cast and crew, writers, directors, rentals, editing, post-production, literally everything.

Locations, props, music.

All of it.

That sounds so intimidating to me.

That is like that, if a train left at 3 p.m.,

like equation.

No, please don't make me do that.

So they would have a discussion with the writers to get sort of a general idea of what the season was going to be like, but they had to set this budget, not really knowing any scripts specifically.

How do you do that?

He said you just do your best, and not all episodes end up costing the same.

Some of them went way over the per episode budget.

Examples of those this season would be Threat Level Midnight, Andy's Play, and The Search.

And in order to balance the books, the writers would have to include a certain number of bottle shows.

And here's one of your bottle shows.

I feel like Carolyn and Randy and Steve Burgess would all be really good at that price is right game where you have to guess the item surprise.

For sure.

Well, lady, that's all I got.

We could go to a break.

And then when we come back, we have a very interesting cold open with the most disgusting sounds.

If you just listen to the cold open, it'll make you gag.

Oh, I didn't even think of that.

We'll be back.

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We are back, and that slurping noise you hear is Dwight having to eat all the canned foods that would have been in his bunker that might expire.

Mm-hmm.

It's so many things.

It's like canned tomatoes and canned mackerel and

some kind of thing that looks like

just really slimy okra.

I don't even know.

All of it is just slimy and in some kind of gelatinous liquid.

You know, I hoarded a bunch of food down in my basement.

How'd that go?

You know, it's kind of great because sometimes you go down there and you find a real treasure.

But there was one night when I can't remember what happened, but the kids were off doing something and Lee was off doing something.

And I didn't have time to go to the grocery store.

And I thought, I'm just going to go to the basement and see what we got.

And all we had left was some expired pasta sauce.

But I was like, how bad could it be?

Right.

So I made some pasta and then I made the mistake of not tasting the pasta sauce first, doused my pasta, the last of the pasta in the sauce.

It had turned.

Yeah.

It was awful.

And I can't even remember what I had for dinner that night.

But after that, I was kind of like done.

So I do admire Dwight for keeping his eye on the expiration dates.

Personal question for you.

Yeah.

Would you be someone who would have a bunker?

Why are you asking me that?

Of course.

It's my dream.

It's, I daydream about it.

You daydream about your bunker.

I love it.

Do you remember the bunker in the movie Grease 2?

No.

That they want to go make out in?

Ever since I saw that movie in my youth, I've wanted one.

I don't even know if I've ever seen Grease 2.

What?

Is that the

smooth rider?

Michelle Pfeiffer?

I don't know if I've seen it all the way through.

The bowling alley dance?

I don't even know what you're talking about.

Oh my God.

What's the bowling alley dance?

I can't.

I don't even know if I can keep talking to you right now.

All right.

It's so good.

But yes, Angela, of course I want a bunker.

Have you met me?

Do you want one?

I mean, if it would make you feel better, here's the thing.

I don't need everybody to have a bunker.

I just want one.

Do you want want one?

If the shit is really going to hit the fan that hard that you're going to go have to live in your bunker, what is the world you're coming out the door to?

I don't know, but I'm not sticking around for the zombies.

I'm not coming out to see what it is.

I'm not sticking around for them.

When it all goes down, I'm going to be like, you know what?

I'm making margaritas and I'm going to watch the fireworks.

Yeah.

It would be depressing to live in the bunker for like a month and then you come up and there's no oxygen.

Yeah.

I mean, that would really be shitty.

I'm just just saying.

Yeah.

I might just ride it out with some margaritas.

I hear you.

I also do want it.

So I'm, I'm a little dwight here.

As Dwight eats all of his slimy, slurpey food, he grosses everyone out, even Kevin.

Yeah.

They're like gagging.

Dwight has this great speech where he says, you know what?

You can laugh at me, but when disaster strikes, Don't come knocking and begging at my shelter door.

And then he tells them all what would happen to them.

And my favorite part is when he's like, Meredith, you'll be okay.

I know.

So, listen, we got a fan mail flurry about this cold open.

Was it because I talked about it in the chomp?

Yes, I was waiting for this.

All right, Beth S from Tennessee said, In this cold open, Pam is wearing a jacket.

Is this because this was filmed a while back?

I think I remember Angela talking about it being in a previous script.

Yes.

And Shannon M from New York City said, this is the cold open that you guys talked about in The Chump.

It exists.

Yes, guys, this scene was originally scripted and shot during season six, The Chump.

It was even featured on the Season 6 Bloopers.

Angela talked about that.

But we didn't play the clip, and I think maybe we should.

Oh, yeah.

It's really funny.

Yeah.

So when Dwight is listing all the things that would happen to us because he refuses to help us in the future, there was supposed to be an extra beat where Creed Creed says, What about me?

Yeah, and then he tells Creed what he'd use his skull for.

It's so funny.

Yeah, and we could not get through it.

I don't think it's in the episode because I don't think we ever got a take of it.

Let's hear the blooper.

What can I do?

Your skull will be

your skull will be made a soup ball.

What can I do?

Your skull will be made a soup bowl.

Cool.

What's going on?

What can I do?

Your s.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

What can I do?

Your skull will be a soup bowl.

Cool.

So many times.

We never,

like, if you watch it, Rain is trying to eat the sloppy stuff and he's trying not to laugh.

So that's why he's going,

and we did finally get through one.

And John, whose shoulders, it's just his shoulders.

It's Creed's face over John's shoulder, but you can see John's shoulders.

He's doing a shimmy because he's laughing.

John was laughing so hard.

And Rain ate through all of that.

God, he ate so much.

The episode is going to start with Todd Packer being back in Scranton.

You want to know why he's decided to get off the road?

Please tell me.

It's because, to quote Todd Packer, all right, truth is I got a couple of love bumps on my ding-dong.

So, game over.

Yeah, Michael is thrilled.

He's so happy.

He wants Todd Packer back.

But it's going to need the approval of Holly.

I guess she has to rubber stamp this.

And Todd turns on the charm.

He's like, I'm sorry, I thought I was meeting Holly, not Jennifer Anniston.

And Holly is charmed.

This scene was longer in the shooting draft.

Todd and Holly had an extra beat in that conference room.

Oh, I want to hear this.

Okay.

This is how it read in the shooting draft.

Interior conference room, Holly and Packer sit together.

Packer is on his best behavior.

Michael paces outside.

The scene opens with Todd trying to charm Holly about his love of music and who his favorite musician is.

And he compares sort of this musician's songs and lyrics to what Scranton means to him.

You have to hear it.

Do you have have any more questions for me?

Nope.

I just want to add one last thing.

I spent a lot of time on the road listening to music, and one of my favorite artists is John Cougar Mellenkamp.

He sings about the importance of hometowns.

Holly,

this is my hometown, and this branch is my little pink house.

Yeah, that's that's then she's like, well, your cells speak for themselves.

Michael loves you.

You got the job.

I'm speechless over that.

I know.

That was really brilliant writing.

And when I watched it, it had this moment where I was like, wait, Todd Packer, he's kind of being relatable.

Yeah.

What's happening?

Well, Michael is going to introduce this news to the bullpen.

Todd Packer is back.

He's going to be a permanent salesman.

At three minutes, 22 seconds, I wrote down double sneer.

From Phyllis?

No, from Pam and Angela.

Did you not see us?

It goes from me to you.

And I laughed out loud because I feel like I have been at dinner parties or other events with you where we have given each other those looks

when we run into a real life Todd Packer of sort.

Yes, I loved that.

I loved that.

And then it also cuts over to Phyllis and she looks like she smelled a fart.

I didn't get that one.

I was still laughing about our double sneer.

Aaron and Gabe arrive late.

I guess Gabe fell in the shower.

Gabe is being written more and more ridiculous as these episodes go.

It's true.

Well, when Erin arrives, she is very excited to see a brand new computer on her desk.

It's a humongous monitor.

We got a fan question from Amy M in Winnipeg.

Ever since I started working in an office myself, it has bothered me that Pam bought an iMac for Erin when the rest of the office has PCs.

If they have any kind of shared system, this doesn't make any sense from an IT perspective.

Was this a paid plug for Apple?

That is such a good catch.

It's like that one member of your family when everyone has an iPhone and they have an Android and you try to send pictures and videos and they're all little tiny compressed pieces of crap.

Cassie.

Cassie.

Cassie.

We're looking at you.

You know what?

I loved your speech, though, where you're like, I'm sorry, but I don't buy into the crap where every year there's a new upgrade and you got to pay for it and you got to change your toggle and blah, blah, blah.

It's too much.

It's too much.

Cassie's our wild card.

I know.

She is.

She doesn't go with the flow.

But she does go with the flow.

She doesn't go with the trends.

Cassie or Cassie, if there was a third phone that wasn't an iPhone or an Android, would that be your phone?

I mean, I do miss Nokia playing snake.

See what I'm saying?

Well, I'll tell you what, Amy from Winnipeg, this was not a paid plug for Apple.

However, Phil Shea did have a deal arranged with Apple International out of Cupertino, California, where we could use their products on air for free.

But when we turned in our rough cut of this episode to the network, we got a very strongly worded note from advertising and sales.

Not standards and practices?

No.

This time we're getting the shame from advertising and sales.

Some ad sales snark?

Let's hear it.

They said that we had to lose the Apple logo on the back of Aaron's monitor or they were going to pixelate it for us.

I mean, we'd already shot the episode.

The thing is like burned into the back of the monitor.

You know what I'm saying?

So what would they do?

Well, I guess rather than have them blur it, Randy said we had it digitally removed.

And that it made sense because at the time, NBC was selling a lot of commercial time to several competitors like Dell Computers, and they didn't want us to show any other computer logos on the air.

That's so stupid though, because it's clearly a Mac.

Clearly, the shape of it, everything.

But if you notice at four minutes, 16 seconds, there is no logo on the back of her monitor, and Randy even sent us the before and after pictures.

I love that he does that.

Logo, no logo.

There was more to the scene.

After Erin gives Pam a big hug, they would have gone over to her new computer, and Erin would have said the following: Oh my God, I can have two boxes open at one time.

Then Erin would would run her hand across the top of the computer and say, it's not too hot.

Then she would look down by her feet and say, and I've got so much more room down here.

I can have crazy legs.

And she starts to kick her legs around.

I remember shooting that.

I remember the crazy legs part now that you say it.

Pam is so tickled.

She goes over to Jim and she's like, I did something nice for somebody.

And then we have a little bit of Jim's ass.

Yeah.

He knows the feeling because he cleaned up their daughter daughter for an hour at 4 a.m.

Dwight is going to move to the annex, and a bunch of people are going to head on over there to complain.

Pam, Jim, Meredith, Ryan, Oscar, they want to know why she hired Todd.

She says Michael gave him a glowing recommendation and Todd's been nothing but nice to her.

At six minutes and two seconds, Angela, does Holly have a Fabergé egg on her desk?

And why?

I did not see that.

Well, check it out.

But also, what happened to Fluffy?

Fluffy is not there.

I know.

None of her old stuff is there.

Nothing.

I know.

But this egg has suddenly appeared.

Back in the bullpen, Andy is going to try to gather people around his computer to watch the Yarmuth regatta.

But it was having trouble loading and it froze.

He got very upset.

We had a fan question from Alexandra B.

in North Carolina who said, I used to race small sailboats growing up and I was impressed with the terminology the writers had Andy use when he was watching the regatta on his computer.

Not to mention it was a hilariously perfect joke for Andy to be so hyped about a sailing regatta.

My husband and I yell, luff him up, luff him up to each other almost daily.

Well, I was curious where Yarmuth is.

What is this regatta?

I googled it.

Oh, this is what I found.

If you guys out there know more about it, let me know.

There is a regatta held in Yarmouth, which is on the Isle of Wight in the UK.

Oh, yeah, it looks like it's held usually in July.

It's sponsored by Tattinger Champagne and hosted by the Royal Silent Yacht Club.

I had to look up Solent.

Did you know what Solent was?

No, what is it?

It is the strait between the Isle of Wight and Great Britain.

It's about 20 miles long and varies in width, and it's a shipping lane for passengers, freight, and military vessels, and I guess also for yachting.

Oh, for this race?

Yeah, I guess they hold lots of races there.

And there was a webcam where you can look at the solent.

And I did, and I found it very calming.

I went on last night.

That's so you.

I could see you doing that.

It's just a really picturesque area.

So I think maybe that's the regatta that Andy was watching.

Sounds like it.

He gets very angry.

when he can't watch it and he yells at Pam.

He says he deserves a new computer as well.

And she explains that if she buys Andy a new computer, she's going to have to buy one for everyone in sales and she just doesn't have the budget for it.

Yeah, it's a domino effect.

Who made these decisions before she was office administrator?

Who handled all this?

I don't know.

Well, here we go to the kitchen.

Todd Packer is in there with Holly and Kevin and Dwight.

And Todd Packer's kind of showing off the saltier side of his personality.

He calls his daughter a bitch.

I know.

So tacky.

And then he makes fun of Kevin's weight.

But Dwight kind of comes to Kevin's defense.

And it's sort of sweet.

And we got a fan question about it from Gwen in North Carolina who said, the last thing I expected from a scene involving Dwight, Kevin, and Todd Packer was a heartfelt moment.

Dwight is so kind here, and it really shows how united the group is against Packer.

There's that saying, nothing brings people together better than a common enemy.

It's so true.

Gwen wanted to know whose idea was it to have this exchange.

Well, Gwen, I don't know who wrote this.

I don't know if it was Amelie's idea or if this was part of the outline that the writers came up with, one of the script beats, but the AV Club reviewer Miles McNutt, remember B minus.

Miles, B minus, McNutt.

He did like this scene.

Oh.

He called out this scene for all the same reasons.

Pam is going to walk by Andy's desk and see Aaron's new computer.

Aaron gave it to him and Pam is not happy.

That's right.

At nine minutes, you'll notice no logo again on the back of that monitor.

Well, Pam is going to put her foot down.

She's going to tell Andy he has to switch the computers back immediately.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Well, meanwhile, back at Aaron's desk, she's going to ask Holly if she could bring Dwight an ant farm.

And Holly agrees.

But on her way, she gets stopped by Michael, and they're going to have have a whole conversation about Todd Packer.

And Holly's going to try to explain to Michael that maybe Todd is not as funny as Michael thinks he is.

Yeah, he's a jerk.

She says he's a jerk.

I know.

I really enjoyed Holly's list of what is funny.

She's trying to get through to Michael.

She says, first is Bill Cosby.

Okay.

Steve Martin.

Okay.

Charlie Bit My Finger, Michael Scott, and and then all the way down here is Todd Packer.

Well, we got some fan mail about Charlie Bit My Finger from Bree F in St.

Pete, Florida, who said, Hi, ladies, I'm 21 years old, and when I listened to the Office Ladies episode, The Meeting, you two explained what the white and yellow pages were.

It hadn't occurred to me that some people might not know what those were.

But during this episode, I did think some people might not know what Charlie Bit My Finger is.

Do you think people don't know what Charlie bit my finger is?

I mean, isn't it like that one of the most viewed YouTube videos ever?

Sam, you know it, right?

I do, but I also think it's one of those things we think it's more recent than it is.

Because we're old.

Yeah.

Let me say that this was a YouTube video where there's these two little boys and the one little boy.

I mean, they're young.

They're tiny.

I remember it.

I haven't seen it in so long, but I remember it clearly.

They're sitting in like a recliner side by side.

The one is like maybe not even

two.

Yeah.

The other one's maybe three and a half.

Yeah.

And the older brother gets his finger bit by his little brother and he goes, Charlie, Charlie bit my finger.

Yes.

And Charlie thinks it's hilarious.

Charlie keeps giggling.

He's cracking up.

And the older brother is like, Charlie, that hurt.

Yeah.

And it's still hurting.

And Charlie is cracking up.

So they're two little boys in the UK.

Their dad uploaded the video because they just wanted to.

In case you needed to know what our accents were.

Exactly.

The dad had uploaded the video because he just wanted to share it with their godfather, but it ended up going viral.

Do you want to guess the date?

Sam, what year do you think this was?

I feel like I want to say a couple years ago, but in reality, 15 years ago.

And what do you think it was?

Oh, Jenna.

So 2007.

Okay.

2001.

Sam, it was 2007.

Yes, it was.

This video quickly became the most viewed YouTube video of all time with 897 million views.

Whoa.

If you can believe it, it has since been surpassed by other videos.

But I looked up this family.

Charlie is now 15.

His older brother, Harry, was the boy who was talking in the video.

He's 18.

The family has two more sons named Jasper and Rupert.

And did you know that they ended up selling this video as an NFT for $760,000 at an auction?

And they said that they plan to use the money to pay for their kids' colleges.

I think that's great because I sort of remember that it went viral before people knew that you could monetize a YouTube video.

That's absolutely right.

They would have made so much money.

And I say, go for it, you guys.

get that coin and let it be a blessing to you because that video absolutely brought so many people a lot of joy for 15 years and counting yeah this whole time michael and holly are going back and forth aaron is preoccupied with the ant farm holly has tucked it holly has sort of tucked it under her arm right she keeps inserting and saying things like you know if you're not going to take it i can take it yeah oh yeah

getting hungry here's something fun i found out about the ant farm oh The ant farm featured in this episode is an Uncle Milton ant farm.

Phil Shea bought it.

It cost about $23.

You can find them on Amazon.

But I read a great article about Milton Levine, who invented this ant farm in the New York Times.

Uncle Milton?

Yes, Milton Levine.

Here's what the article said.

In 1956, Milton Levine had a Eureka moment.

He spotted a mound of ants during a 4th of July picnic at his sister's poolside in Southern California.

Recalling as a boy how he had collected ants in jars at his uncle's farm in Pennsylvania, he told his brother-in-law and business partner, we should make an ant uranium.

The resulting product, Uncle Milton's ant farm, has been a staple in children's bedrooms ever since.

More than 20 million have been sold.

The thing that fascinates me about this, because as a parent, I have looked into the ant farm, is that they sent you a little tube of ants.

A little vial of them, yeah.

Live ants that you add to the farm.

But how many times, Angela, do you think that the transfer from the tube to the house has gone awry?

I know.

I'm sure I'm going to say this wrong.

I'm positive I am.

But the type of ants that are in the ant farm are Pogonomarex californicus, red ants from California.

Oh, just like the ones he saw on the little mound by the pool.

Mr.

Levine, he was quoted as saying this about the ants.

Okay.

I found out their most amazing feat yet, he said.

They put three kids through college.

Aww.

Mr.

Levine passed away.

He was 97 years old, and his company, the Uncle Milton Industries, was sold to Transom Capital Group for more than $20 million.

Wow.

Wow, that really shows you how a little idea can turn into something that's in every kid's bedroom.

Yes, Jenna, Mr.

Levine once said of his company's success, most novelties, if they last one season, it's a lot.

If they last two seasons, it's a phenomenon.

But to last 35 years is unheard of.

It's true.

I know.

Well, I loved that.

I think we should take a break.

Oh, yes, because when we come back, I want to share with you guys that this scene would have continued and we learn a little bit about Holly's friend lois i can't wait

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We're back.

So in the episode that aired, Erin grabs the ant farm, right?

Yes.

She can't take it.

She can't take it anymore.

This scene would have continued with Michael and Holly in the annex at Holly's desk.

Part of it is in deleted scenes, and we learn about Holly's friend Lois and pretty much how she drives Michael crazy.

Oh my gosh, Angela, we got a fan question about this.

Okay.

Okay, it's from Narissa C.

from Cedar City, Utah, who said, this is probably a question for Angela since she is the queen of the deleted scenes.

Thank you, Narissa.

I first saw the deleted scene about Holly's friend Lois in 2015.

I had become disabled about two years before that and started using a service dog who is still my partner today.

In the scene, Steve Corell is absolute perfection.

Somehow, he is able to capture both the perspective of himself wanting to pet a cute dog and Lois, who is tiredly trying to explain that just because her guide dog is hanging out doesn't mean he isn't still on duty.

I have been the person holding the leash in this exact situation so many times, and I thought the writing and execution was delightful on all sides.

Who wrote this scene?

Well, Narissa, I am not exactly sure who wrote the scene, if it was Amelie or if the group wrote it.

I kind of feel like it might have been a group-written scene because there are so many candy bag alts for Lois, and they are fantastic.

Let's start first by playing the scene you're talking about in deleted scenes.

It is important to me that you like him.

Well, honey, look, I don't have to like all your friends.

You don't like Lois.

Duh, Lois is a.

No, no, I don't.

Lois is disgusting.

She thinks she's better than everybody else.

Case in point.

You're not allowed to pet my seeing eye dog.

Well, he wants me to.

Well, he's working and he has a job to do.

Well, you're just sitting down.

Well, I'm asking you nicely.

Well, I'm asking you nicely.

Well, I wish you wouldn't.

Well,

I want to pet your dog.

Oh my gosh.

Oh my gosh.

I know.

He's so annoyed that Lois won't let him pet her dog.

And she has good reason.

Yes.

It's not just a dog.

It's

working.

I know.

Well, Narissa, this scene had so many candy bag alts.

I went to the shooting draft and I just have to read them, okay?

Please.

They all start with Michael's talking head where he says Lois is disgusting.

She thinks she's better than everyone else.

Then in the script it said, Michael continues in an annoying voice, like he's talking as Lois.

So here are all the alts.

I work for the Environmental Defense Fund.

I take my backpack everywhere.

I use a thermos.

Oh, listen, a cardinal.

Do you have non-fat dressing?

What beautiful architecture.

I'm thinking of taking a pottery class.

Do you eat to live or live to eat?

Read anything good lately?

I love that shirt.

Michael, you look great.

What'd you two do last night?

I can tell when you're tired.

I'm not quiet.

I'm pensive.

Do you think I should call Marcus?

Introduce me to Dwight.

How's your mom doing?

I had to stop reading the newspaper.

Oh my gosh, I could listen to those all day.

I know.

I want a whole play written based on that dialogue right there, on those lines.

I want to play this character.

Lois.

Yeah.

I know.

Who says all these things.

And some of them are perfectly nice.

I know.

They just drive Michael crazy.

That was what I loved about it.

I love that shirt.

Michael's.

Exactly.

I want to deliver the line like that, though.

Well, the scene continues after this Lois moment, and Holly tells Michael the truth, what everyone thinks of Todd Packer.

Let's hear it.

Look, it's not just me.

Everybody in the office wants him gone.

Okay.

You know what?

People are a little indifferent toward him.

That's fine.

They hate Packer.

No.

They're indifferent to Gabe.

Who exactly has a beef with him?

Without naming names?

Everyone.

Everyone.

That conversation motivates Michael to have a one-on-one conversation with Packer.

Oh.

First, Todd is going to pepper Jim and Pam about their married sex life.

And Dwight is going to try to give Todd some hot chocolate with a laxative in it.

This scene made me laugh so hard because Dwight is so bad.

He's so bad at espionage.

He's like, no, you should drink it.

Here, drink it.

Ooh, don't you want to drink it?

But he also gives like 90 million reasons why he's prepared it.

I know.

So Jim has to pull Dwight into the kitchen.

He has to try to explain that you can't give Todd a cup of hot chocolate with a laxative in it.

Well, public service announcement, don't laxative someone.

Yeah, don't do that.

That's terrible.

I think Jim convinces Dwight of this because instead, Jim tells Dwight he'll come up with a bunch of other ideas.

Well, there's my favorite, favorite couplet of dialogue, makes me laugh every time, when Jim's like, this isn't my best, but I could call Froggy101, say We're the tour manager for Justin Bieber, and we're giving out free tickets.

And we give a number to call for the tickets, and it's Packers.

And Dwight says, Who is Justice Beaver?

I know.

And Jim says, It's a crime-fighting beaver.

Never mind.

I googled Justice Beaver, and there's so much fan art of like a very fired up.

Crime-fighting beaver.

Fired-up beaver.

You know, when I watched this scene, it did make me wonder if Billie Eilish

thought that Justice Beaver was a real crime-fighting beam.

It did.

It did because she said she believed stuff.

What do you think?

You'll have to text her and ask her.

I'm going to ask her.

Well, listen, in this scene at 12 minutes and 34 seconds, we had a fan question from Hannah C.

in Indiana.

Hannah said, when Dwight and Jim are talking in the kitchen about how to annoy Todd Packer, I noticed a couple of boxes of tasty cakes on top of the fridge behind Dwight.

I lived in Pennsylvania for a few years as a kid, and these were my favorite favorite snacks.

They are an East Coast thing and are near impossible to find outside of the region.

So I just wanted to say that I love the attention to detail.

Well, guess what, guys?

You brought some?

I brought some tasty cakes.

You know what?

As you were saying it, I don't know if it's because I'm hungry.

I was thinking, I wish I had a tasty cake right now.

There are two boxes of tasty cakes on top of the fridge in this scene, and this is one of the ones that was featured.

This is the peanut butter candy cake.

Oh my God, give it to me.

It is a cake with chocolate flavored coating and a peanut butter filling.

Imagine like a sort of round.

It looks like a cookie.

It looks like a kind of a chocolate cookie with cake filling.

Well, it's got cake, a layer of caramel, and it's sort of covered in chocolate.

Sam, you got to have some.

I have some for you too.

Oh, that is tasty.

That's a tasty cake.

Is it a tasty cake?

Oh, that's delightful.

I'm going to try one.

These do have gluten in them, but I think I can eat one bite.

You know what I like?

I love the salty and the sweet.

Mmm, that's making me happy.

So I looked it up.

Mm-hmm.

Tasty cake is a Philadelphia company.

It has been around for over a hundred years.

Go tasty cakes.

In 1914, Philip Bauer and Herbert Morris, who was an egg salesman, raised $50,000 from their family members and they founded Tasty Baking Company.

Did you say egg salesman?

He was an egg salesman.

Okay.

Phillip's father had been in the bakery business, so he had a little bakery knowledge, but he teamed up with an egg salesman.

Who knew that was a thing back in 1914?

I'm pretty sure.

Probably like a milkman.

I was going to say, I'm sure our grandparents would be like, sure, you had the egg guy.

You had your milk guy.

Right.

Their idea was that they wanted to produce individually wrapped snack cakes and deliver them fresh daily.

Herbert's wife, Willivine, tried one and said, quote, what a tasty cake.

Just like you, Angela.

And that is how they got their name.

They were originally delivered by a horse.

Yeah.

And I guess this horse and buggy was very popular on the streets of Philadelphia.

In the early 1930s, they added individually wrapped pies.

These were a big hit in the lunch boxes.

And in the 1980s, the company expanded beyond Philadelphia from New England to Florida and as far west as Ohio.

But that's it.

I had to order these through the mail.

They're delicious.

Thank you for doing that.

I needed it.

I needed that tasty cake pickup.

The texture is very pleasing.

It's very pleasant.

It really feels good to bite into.

I agree with you.

Also, the way you said that line makes it seem like just a horse brought them.

Like the tasty cake horses here.

Yeah.

And it made me very happy.

Interestingly enough, tasty cakes was my nickname in in high school.

No, it was not.

Cracking myself up today.

Okay.

Andy is going to ask Pam to speak to him privately, please.

He has signed them up for three five-minute mods in the conference room on the sign-up board that he created.

It's so odd.

Five minutes.

Five mods.

I have to think this is from Andy's RA days.

Oh, yes.

Right?

Yes.

You have two mods with the RA.

I googled mods.

Is this a college term?

I looked.

All I could find is that at Boston College, there's some housing called the mods, but I couldn't find it as an increment of time.

I feel like though, this was something Andy used when he was the RA.

Well, Andy really lays into Pam in the conference room for humiliating him in front of everybody.

And she sort of quickly says, oh, wow, well, I really didn't think of it that way.

But she holds firm and kind of says, I cannot replace your computer unless it breaks all the way and then they get like a little

sinister look in their eyes I think they know what they have to do Andy says pretty sneaky sis I thought Ed improvised that I went to the script and it's exactly as it's written no way yeah but what was interesting is a little tidbit in the shooting draft when Ryan and his band enter.

In the shooting draft, it reads like this.

There's a loud rap at the door.

It's Ryan and Hank, and there are three other Hank-aged musicians with jazz instruments.

Ryan says, hey, cats, we have a jam session in mods 6, 9, and 12.

And then it would have cut to a Ryan talking head where Ryan would have said, apparently you're not allowed to sign up for consecutive mods.

Oh my gosh, Angela, we got fan mail about that.

So many people asked, why would you create a system where you can't have concerns?

And I thought, well, I'll never get the answer to that.

So I didn't include it.

Oh my gosh.

Well, everybody who wrote in, there's your answer.

So you know the musicians that enter with Ryan in that scene?

Randy said that normally, if you have a musician in an episode, you have to hire an American Federation of Musicians player.

Oh.

It's sort of like a union for musicians.

But he said that because we never hear the musicians play any instruments, he was able to just hire standard background performers, provided we did not ask them to play or even pretend to play the instruments, but they were allowed to carry them in.

I thought that was kind of interesting.

Yeah.

All the little rules.

I know.

So many rules.

And apparently, Andy has a lot of rules for his mods.

He sure does.

Jim is going to present Dwight with a list of 400 ideas.

Eat a frog.

Eat a dog.

Eat a brog.

It reminded me of that children's book, Oi Frog.

Do you know that book?

We got it in the UK when we lived in London when I did that TV show there.

No, I don't know it.

Oh my gosh, it's the cutest book.

It's called Oy Frog.

And it's about a cat.

And the cat is explaining to a frog that the only thing he can sit on is a log because he's a frog.

And he goes on, the cat explains, cats can sit on mats, frogs sit on logs.

And it's a little rhyming book.

But what's really cute about it, Angela, is that some of the rhymes only work if you read it in a British accent.

Did you love it?

So it's like, newts sit on flutes, puffins sit on muffins, weasels sit on easels.

But then it'll say, like, gorillas sit on pillars.

Pillars with an R?

Yeah, you know, like a pillar for a building.

Yeah, gorillas sit on pillars.

So you have to say, gorillas sit on pillas.

Because then it rhymes.

Right, gorillas sit on pillas.

Yes.

This book sounds adorable.

I want to see it.

You know what?

I'll send you a link.

We can post about it in the stories.

I love a good insta story.

I know you do, Anne.

Well, it just sounded like Jim took one phrase and then let the computer just go through and alter it by one letter

and hit return, return, return.

For 400 ideas.

We have a scene down at Caffeine Corner.

This is the scene that would have been set up by that Michael Holly scene earlier where Michael's going to talk to Todd.

In the shooting draft, it started with this.

Packer and Michael are drinking at the bar.

Hank has a 76ers tip cup.

Packer to Hank.

Hey, 76ers fan.

Todd puts a buck in the tip jar.

Hank nods and smiles.

Michael is delighted.

Michael's like, hey, Packer, you need to take some of that charm upstairs to the bullpen.

And he explains to him, you've been on the road a long time, and you've been an outdoor cat.

And now you have to be an indoor cat so you can't be peeing all over the walls.

And Todd's like, you know what?

You're right.

I got to watch my behavior.

And he says, don't give up on me.

And it's this really honest moment, right?

And Michael's like, I won't.

Well, in the shooting draft, the scene would have ended with one more beat.

Michael would have said, you'll always have a place here.

And then Hank would place two biscotti treats in front of Michael and Packer.

And Packer would say, ew, get this dick cookie out of my face.

Sorry, Miles.

That's more Todd Packer for you.

Well, after this conversation, Michael is going to bring Todd to the bullpen to publicly apologize to Kevin.

Yeah.

It doesn't go well.

No one buys this.

They're all like, this is a fake apology.

Even though Kevin's like, no, no, no, I don't need this.

I'm fine.

Yeah.

And then Packer's like, okay, you want a real apology?

Here it goes.

Kevin, I am so sorry.

You are skinny and a genius.

Yeah.

And Michael's like, okay, that didn't turn out how I wanted it to.

So Michael starts to try to justify why Todd Packer also has other things going on in his life, just like everyone else, right?

Yeah.

Trying to create some sympathy for Todd.

Yeah.

There's a moment I barely got through.

I could barely say my line without laughing.

I just thought we should hear it.

Packer is a survivor of divorce, Stanley.

Packer doesn't speak with his child, Meredith.

Packer never lived up to his parents' expectations, Andy.

Angela loves pussycats.

Packer.

No, don't.

I was going to say dogs.

Okay, you know what?

This is over.

Apology has been issued and we're through with it.

Packer's going to be here until the day he dies, just like the rest of us.

I loved that so much when I watched it because I didn't remember the line.

I I was going to say Todd.

So here's the thing.

One of the reasons why I kept breaking when we shot this is because in the shooting draft, it was written like this.

Right after the line where Michael says, and you know, Andy, Todd never lived up to his parents' expectations.

There was a beat where Michael scanned the room.

Who else?

Who else can I connect Todd Packer to?

And it said, Michael spots Angela.

And then you kind of hear him trying to make a connection.

Michael says, Packer and Angela, Packer and Angela, Packer, Angela.

Oh, Angela loves pussycats and Packer loves.

And then Angela goes, Don't, no.

But it was that buildup.

You know how Steve could do that?

Yes.

That moment where he's scanning the room and then it's like, Packer, Angela, Packer, Angela.

I got it.

Every time that got me.

And that whole moment didn't make it in, just the line.

But every single time Steve as Michael locked eyes with me,

I lost it.

I guess Jim and Dwight have settled on their prank and also on how they're going to get Todd Packer out of here.

Yeah, they're going to pretend to be calling from Sabre.

Joe is going to offer him a position in Tallahassee.

Yeah, and he can just hop the fence when he gets there.

They sound exactly like themselves.

Oh, yeah, I know.

Like exactly like themselves.

And I just want to point out, they're calling from a phone in the annex.

Clearly, Todd doesn't care.

He heard what he needed to hear.

He's thrilled.

Yeah, he says that, you know what?

Best part, he's a huge alligator nerd.

He can name every genus and subspecies.

He's also a huge boob nerd.

Well, we got a fan question from Gerald T.

in Fort Myers, Florida, Angela, who said, Todd Packer says he's a huge alligator nerd and can name every genus and every subspecies, but there is only one alligator genus, and it's literally just called called alligator.

And there are zero alligator subspecies.

Gerald said, I love this line so much that I use it in a presentation about alligator safety that I lead.

He also said that he likes to believe that the writers intentionally made this joke and that they knew it would go way above the heads of 99% of the audience.

Well, Gerald, guess what?

There was about a page and a half of candy bag alts for this Todd Packer talking head.

Was he an alligator enthusiast in all of them?

And many of them, but there were also some that were all over the map.

Here's one I thought I would share: Todd Packer.

Word travels fast.

Apparently, as soon as corporate found out I wanted to come in off the road, Joe offered me a cushy new job in Tallahassee, which got a four-dongs up rating on the hitthat.com.

It's the hookup hub of the whole peninsula.

Sorry, Miles.

Four dongs up.

It's a rating.

Miles is so happy that some of this stuff ended up on the cutting room floor.

You know what he He gives all that stuff.

He gives it an A plus for cutting it out.

There you go.

I think so.

Maybe it bumps the grade up knowing what they cut out.

Yeah.

Michael finds Jim and Dwight making this phone call.

He's upset about it.

He says, he's my friend, and I'm going to tell him the truth.

Yeah.

So in Michael's office, Todd and Michael are having a little heart-to-heart.

Todd's telling him the news.

He's so excited.

But you know what?

Michael in this scene finally starts to see Todd Packer through Holly's eyes.

Yeah.

And everyone else's.

And he stops himself.

He was going to tell Todd that it was a joke.

And then he's like, you know what?

You should go down there.

This was another step on the trail of Michael becoming more mature, becoming the man that he needs to be to marry Holly.

First was seeing his movie.

through different eyes, seeing Threat Level Midnight another way.

And now here he is seeing Todd Packer another way.

In the shooting draft, it was so great.

The moment when Holly and Michael talk about this, and they're communicating so much through these Boston accents of like, you are, no, you are.

But it said, Holly says, you are with emotion.

All the subtexts.

I love that.

I know.

After Packer leaves, all of a sudden there's an empty desk next to Jim and Pam.

In the episode that aired, it's not addressed, but in the shooting draft, there was a whole beat about this and it was really funny it isn't just that dwight moves back to his desk no no jim makes a plea to michael oh my gosh yeah in the shooting draft it said interior office jim and dwight's desk clump michael comes out of his office he looks at the empty desk for a moment like

what could have been michael says well i don't like an empty desk who wants this anyone jim jumps up this is his moment he's been planning for years jim says you know what No one needs to be here.

We could get rid of it.

Two-person clump.

Less distractions, more walking space.

A little stage for you to perform in.

Michael says, hmm, maybe.

Dwight starts walking through the kitchen.

Jim sees him and gets more anxious.

Jim says to Michael, do this.

You can do this.

Please, please.

I never ask anything of you.

Dwight enters.

Dwight says, my desk.

Michael says, oh yeah, you should move back here.

Jim goes, damn it.

Dwight gives Michael a huge hug.

Pam says, it's okay, honey.

I told you not to let yourself believe it could happen.

Dwight kisses his desk.

It's kind of sweet.

And then he takes out a large knife and starts immediately carving his own name into the desk.

Michael says, glad you're back.

Aw.

Jim had his moment, but it didn't happen.

Well, listen, Pam and Andy managed to destroy Andy's computer enough.

Oh, yeah, they put all kinds of stuff in it.

Bologna, mustard, scratched it up.

Yes.

And she has replaced it.

But then they have to kind of scuff up the new one so that she can convince everyone that she found it on a shelf in the warehouse somewhere.

Mm-hmm.

This makes Daryl's ears perk up.

He's like, you found it in the warehouse, huh?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So Daryl approaches Pam in the break room.

He's going to call bullshit on that.

Sure is.

I'm calling this scene bullshit in the break room.

He says maybe she should go back down there and find him some extra sick days on a shelf somewhere scandalous and you know what she does remember seeing a sick day on the shelf five yeah daryl remembers five

pam says three agreed we had a fan question from amanda a in north carolina who said in the tag when daryl asks pam if she can find him some extra sick days how would this work is this really something pam would have control over apparently pam has a lot more control than we could ever imagine.

She can get computers.

She can fudge the system.

That's what I'm saying.

Who was in charge of all of this before she had this job?

Who did this?

Was it supposed to be Michael?

Yes.

Is this stuff that she used to do as the receptionist and Michael would just kind of sign off on it?

I think she did a lot of Michael's job.

And so she knew how to manipulate the system.

That's what I think.

You know, in her final talking head, Pam says she's full-on corrupt.

And she's delighted by it.

But here's my question.

What is Pam getting out of this deal?

Why is she corrupt?

What did she get?

I know she manipulated the system, but it was in Andy's favor.

And then I guess she's corrupt because she's covering up what she did by giving a favor to another person.

I'm not understanding what's in it for Pam.

She gets to hold power.

The power's gone to her head.

And now she's part of a cover-up.

I guess that's what it is.

Well, guys, that was Todd Packer.

We hope you enjoyed.

Maybe get yourself some tasty cakes.

We sure like them.

Or maybe an ant farm.

Yeah, or go buy yourself a Justice Beaver shirt.

We will be back next week with a garage sale.

Oh, my goodness.

We have a lot to share about that one.

Have a great week, you guys.

And I have something for you guys as we go.

What?

What is it?

Come on, everybody.

What is this?

It's the Bowling alley song from Greece 2 Angela.

I have not seen this.

The song is called Score Tonight.

That's right.

Do you get it?

It's a double entente.

This gets four dongs up.

It sure does.

Thank you for listening to Office Ladies.

Office Ladies is produced by Earwolf, Jenna Fisher, and Angela Kinsey.

Our show is executive produced by Cody Fisher.

Our producer is Cassie Jerkins, our sound engineer is Sam Kiefer, and our associate producer is Ainsley Bubba Coe.

Our theme song is Rubber Tree by Creed Bratton.

For ad-free versions of Office Ladies, go to StitcherPremium.com.

For a free one-month trial of Stitcher Premium, use code Office.

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