Sexual Harassment

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I'm Jenna Fisher and I'm Angela Kinsey.

We were on the office together and we're best friends.

And now we're doing the Ultimate Office Rewatch podcast just for you.

Each week, we will break down an episode of The Office and give exclusive behind-the-scenes stories that only two people who were there can tell you.

We're the office ladies.

Welcome to The Office Ladies.

Welcome, everybody.

Today we're talking about the episode Sexual Harassment.

Oh, it's a doozy.

And if you're listening with your kids, we're going to try to keep it clean, folks.

Yeah.

Maybe you want to pre-screen this one.

Yeah.

I mean, the subject matter alone.

I know.

Well, they had to walk a line when they were writing and making this episode, and we're going to walk a line today talking about it.

Angela, I see you're eating a Pop-Tart.

Yes, I am.

It's a brown sugar Pop-Tart.

Brown sugar.

I didn't know cinnamon or brown sugar.

It has some brown icing on it.

I think it's the cinnamon brown sugar Pop-Tart.

Am I right, guys?

In the booth?

Yeah, it's the cinnamon brown sugar Pop-Tart.

This has been a sticking point in my friendship with Angela for a long time, which is that she can eat things like Pop-Tarts, donuts, pancakes for breakfast.

This is a bad time for me to tell you, I also had two muffins before the Pop-Tart.

It is.

It is.

All right, guys, today is Sexual Harassment Season 2, Episode 2.

This was written by B.J.

Novak and directed by Ken Kwapis.

You've probably heard those names before.

I want to point out in my first fast fact that BJ Novak wrote Diversity Day and Ken Kwapis directed it.

So they already had a little bit of a great back and forth.

Yes, they are paired together again.

I guess Greg assigned BJ the script of sexual harassment because of the good job he had done on Diversity Day.

On touchy subjects.

Yes.

Oh, well, and then Ken was asked to direct it.

I think it makes sense.

Ken Kwapis is such a gentleman.

BJ is so smart.

He's able to walk that line so well.

I think this was the perfect coupling.

I do too.

Bring this episode to life.

Here's a quick summary for this episode.

When an upper-level manager is let go because of sexual harassment, corporate requires everyone in the company to undergo sexual harassment training.

Michael's crude friend, Todd Packer, comes into the office and starts harassing everyone.

Kind of a twofer there.

There you go.

And years later, we would have our own seminars.

that NBC would have us attend.

We've talked about this.

And they would use clips from this episode of what not to do at work.

And other episodes.

And other episodes.

We're like, oh, hey, hey, it's us again.

Oh, yeah, we should, no one should be doing that.

Okay, okay, good.

And also, you know, after reading the scripts, the network originally wanted to air sexual harassment as our season premiere for season two.

I know.

Probably good that we eased into that one.

It is because this brings me to my second fast fact, which is that this episode originally aired with a warning.

It did?

Yes, which is very unusual for network television.

Oh, I didn't know that.

It aired within a warning before the episode that said this episode contains adult content and subject matter.

Oh, yeah.

And you know why?

All right, parents.

This is where you're going to want to start.

Maybe, maybe

put the earmuffs on.

Earmuffs, earmuffs on the kids.

It all came down to the word boner.

Yes, with Phyllis.

With Phyllis.

The scene with Phyllis at the end when Steve says something like, No, I'm just afraid I'll get a boner.

The network wanted to change it to, I'm afraid I'll get a swing.

And they

in NBC is like, let's make it Wayne's World.

Let's make it a schwing.

I'm afraid I'll get a swing.

Yeah.

And BJ fought to keep Boner in the episode.

The warning was their way of having a compromise.

We were surprised that Clitoris made it in the episode.

I mean, there's a whole runner with a blow-up doll.

Right?

Pam's supposed to kiss a blow-up doll.

There's, to me, many red flags here.

A lot of stuff happening.

But

they got stuck on boner.

They got stuck on boner.

Sorry.

There's There's too many.

That's what she says in this episode.

Okay, Peter.

That could be a drinking game for this episode.

Wow.

I don't condemn that.

Okay.

Okay.

But even still, even with the warning, there was one network in Kentucky that refused to air this episode.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

So we.

Sorry, Kentucky.

We got pulled off the air.

You can watch it on Netflix right now, folks in Kentucky.

That is so funny to me because the word boner, sorry to go back there, is so funny.

Phyllis's Phyllis's reaction to the word boner.

Yes.

It wouldn't be the same as the moment.

It wouldn't be the same.

It wouldn't be the same.

And for me, what made that moment funny was Phyllis.

Her look to Michael when he said it was hilarious.

So, okay, moving on.

We can talk more about that scene later in the episode.

We can really, I have a lot to say about that scene.

Oh, gosh, more?

Okay.

My third fast fact is that we get to meet Todd Packer finally.

He Todd Packer in the flesh comes into the office, played by Dave Kechner.

Okay, so I have known Dave Kechner, oh my gosh, maybe 16 years.

I've known him a really long time.

We met back at Improv Olympic.

He had taken Second City in Chicago, and he knew Steve from Second City and Nancy, Steve's wife, Nancy.

I called Dave last night, and I was like, Dave, we're going to do sexual harassment.

And he was like, Do you have people come in the booth?

I was like, We do, Dave.

Can you come in tomorrow?

And he's like, No, I'm working.

I was like, Okay.

And then I said, Oh, Dave, can I record our conversation he's like yeah sure tell me when you're ready to go this is great yes it's great so i i did this swipe up on my iphone you know where your flashlight is sure you know underneath like by your flashlight i know my phone okay there's a little record button okay so i hit the record button and i was like let's do this i'm feeling like this isn't going where we're hoping okay dave and i talked for half an hour yeah i have 30 minutes okay of me filming my screen yeah with no sound okay okay it's a record button how is i supposed to know it doesn't record sound?

I don't know where to begin with this one.

Because I'm 100 years old.

Well, it's just that that's sort of like when my mom wrote me my first email.

Yeah.

She called me on the phone and said, why haven't you responded to my email that I sent you?

Yeah.

And I said, well, I never got your email.

What email address did you send it to?

And she said, I sent it to you.

I sent it to Jenna.

And I said, I don't, I don't understand.

And she said, I opened the email box and it said two and I wrote Jenna.

She just sent an email to Jenna.

That is very similar to what you've done here with the record button on your phone.

A little bit.

Come on, a little bit.

Wait a minute.

That's kind of.

Anyway, whatever, guys.

The long story short here is, Dave, thank you so much for talking to me last night for half an hour.

And I wrote down everything we talked about because it didn't record.

You do have a gazillion note cards.

I have.

Angela had to move seats because she has so many note cards.

I have so many note cards.

I have lots of little fun tidbits from Dave, but I'll save those as we go.

Okay, that's great.

Something I'd like to expand on is what you were saying about Steve Carell starting at Second City in Chicago.

I think a lot of people.

don't realize the long journey that a lot of us took before we landed on the office.

And in particular, Steve Carell.

He was doing comedy in Chicago on Second City for a very, very long time.

And then he and his wife, Nancy, they moved to New York City because she had an audition for Saturday Night Live.

And she got it.

She did.

Her and Dave were on Saturday Night Live together.

So they had known each other for a really long time and journeyed through quite a bit.

And Steve was really excited.

He is actually the one who pitched Dave to Greg.

for Todd Packer.

He was really like, you got to cast Dave Kechner.

They had just done Anchorman together.

And he just knew that they'd be off to the races and it'd be so much fun.

And their dynamic in Anchorman was amazing.

Their chemistry there was amazing.

but it makes sense because they had been schlepping through Chicago to New York to LA together doing comedy for close to 15 years.

Oh, yeah.

They'd known each other for so long.

And you were in those circles, Angela.

I never got into that.

I never did the comedy, improv, sketch, comedy thing.

Yes, I had met Dave years ago at Improv Olympic out here in Los Angeles.

It was called IO West, and he was part of a phenomenal improv show called Beer Shark Mice.

These guys were amazing.

They were like the best of the best.

It would sell out.

It would be standing room only.

They were amazing.

It was Mike Coleman, Pat Finn, Neil Flynn, and Pete Holney, Dave Kechner, and then also Paul Valancourt.

They were just phenomenal.

Wow.

What a show.

It was great.

So like, listen, if you're an improv nerd out there, these guys are the best of the best.

I was working in the light booth.

I was in charge of calling their lights and I was really intimidated because the person in the light booth makes it fade to black when you feel that the show has wrapped up.

So what?

It's kind of on you to decide.

On me.

And here I am like, you're like a person lowering the curtain at the end of the show.

Yes.

And I'm just like a newbie at the theater.

Like I'm like, really?

You're going to trust me?

Was there no one else?

And so I was calling lights and I really felt like the show wrapped up and it was about 30 minutes and I pulled it to black and they were like, what?

And then afterwards, Dave and everyone was like, ange we had a whole nother round to go you called the lights way too soon and i was like i am so sorry i'm so sorry i felt so horrible all right so it's the next week and dave comes up to me and says anch let us go about 45 minutes tonight i'm like okay dave got it set my timer you set a timer i love

that's very jenna of you Thank you.

Yes.

I didn't want to get it wrong.

So anyway, I'm up in the light booth at 39 minutes.

I thought they had their out, Jenna.

Okay.

I did not pull lights.

You did?

No.

No.

And then they went to 45 minutes.

And then it was almost an hour.

What?

I didn't want to pull the lights.

I didn't.

I was too nervous.

I don't know.

I froze.

They're probably just out there just flailing on stage.

It was getting awkward.

And Dave walks backstage and someone had left, I don't know, a spare tire to like a truck or a Jeep.

It was enormous.

So Dave gets this giant tire and he rolls it across the stage into the audience.

And he's like, that's our show, you guys.

And I was like, oh, crap.

Wait, did you, when the tire went across the stage, did you finally go to black?

I did.

Okay, so you got his signal.

I got it.

I got it, Dave.

The tire.

I got it.

And I went backstage and I was like, you guys.

And we all started cracking up.

And they still talk about it.

They still talk about the tire.

Anyway, I just love those guys so much.

And believe it or not, I did call lights for them a few more times until they got their official person.

But that is how I met Dave Kechner.

Didn't Greg Daniels go to a few of those shows?

I mean, maybe not Dave's in particular, but.

Oh, no.

Greg loved supporting like small improv theaters, and a lot of improvisers ended up on our show.

So I know Rain Wilson would make fun of me, but I'd be like, oh, you know, whoever actor is showing up.

I did a Sunday show with him.

And he'd be like, did you do improv with the man to love?

Like, yes, Rain.

Well, Rain and I were the two classically trained theater actors.

Oh, don't we know it?

Oh, don't we know it?

I heard quite a bit about it.

All right, before things take a turn here, maybe we should go to a break.

Yeah, let's go to a break.

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That's right.

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I did because we're going to be here for a little while.

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Yeah.

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What?

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In Iceland?

In Iceland.

Wow.

I was like, okay, you're going to have to tell me which one that is because that looked amazing.

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And we're back talking about the sexual harassment episode.

Here we go.

Here we go.

Buckle in, everyone.

Buckle in, as they say.

In re-watching this episode, Angela, I was very uncomfortable.

Yeah.

I was more squirmy during this than Diversity Day.

Well,

yeah, I mean, I don't know.

They're both equally squirmy for me.

But then I was squirmy during Hot Girl.

I think that I had forgotten how really cringy and uncomfortable the show can get sometimes.

Oh, we pushed it.

We pushed it to the line and then went over the line.

How did this show get on the air?

I mean, I know this particular episode got on with a warning, but in general, what was going on?

I don't know.

I mean, you know, I grew up overseas and I grew up with a lot of british television and they definitely pushed the line and i think the show was in the spirit of the bbc version and um i don't know i i think like some of the cringy moments that you end up laughing i i don't know i i love it i know that kevin riley who was at NBC at the time, was a huge champion for our show.

I really credit him with us sticking around.

He believed in us.

And there were a lot of people there who didn't get it and who didn't think that this was a good idea.

No, it's true.

He fought for us.

And when we finally won an Emmy for Best Comedy Ensemble, we all went backstage for photos and the guys, the cast, picked up Kevin Riley up in the air.

And that's the photo that was in the LA Times because we all knew that he put his neck on the line for us.

And I mean, I'll always be grateful to Kevin for that.

The episode begins with Michael walking up to Jim's desk to see if he has received his hilarious email forward.

Michael has a talking head where he declares himself the king of forwards.

And he says, that's how I like to do business.

Yeah.

I have a funny story about a behind-the-scenes moment that happened on set while we were filming a big group scene in the bullpen talking about these email forwards.

Was I there?

You were there.

Everyone was there.

Everyone was there.

Kelly was there still with an up-to-date.

When is the episode where Kelly becomes Mindy?

Exactly.

That's what we need to look for.

No, so this is an episode that John Krasinski and I will never forget because he about fell out of his chair.

At nine minutes, 16 seconds, you know, we're talking about the email forwards and Michael's really upset that they want him to stop doing this.

And I say, I hate them.

You send me these filthy emails and you say forward them to 10 people or you'll have bad luck.

Right.

That's my line.

So we had been working on this scene for a while and then we went to lunch and we came back.

Oh, that's always so hard to pick up a scene with lunch in between.

Yes.

And I think it was like around three o'clock in the afternoon.

Oh, everyone's real off at that time.

Everyone's a little tired.

People are a little bit more punchy.

Yeah.

And we're in a big group scene.

So here's the thing you should know about me.

I was born in Louisiana.

My family's from Texas and Louisiana.

I have a really, really hard time saying a vowel in front of an L.

And two times in my career on the office, they almost dropped a line because I could not say it.

One time they actually did.

I'll save that story for later.

It was between Andy Bernard and myself.

I couldn't say the line.

I just kept sounding like such a hillbilly that they just dropped the line.

But this line, I said, I hate them.

You send me these filthy emails.

And John about fell out of his chair and he went, the South has arrived.

And I was like, what?

What?

I didn't even hear it.

He was like, Angela.

And like eight of you turned and looked at me.

And at the same time, you're like, you said filthy.

Filthy.

And I said, how do you say it?

And you're like, filthy.

And I had to like really concentrate filthy, filthy, because I automatically want to say filthy, filthy.

But somewhere there's footage of me saying, you send me these filthy emails.

And John lost it.

You and John had a great relationship on the show.

You guys were big brother, kid sister.

And it was so sweet.

I loved your banter.

And I loved just, I don't know, you guys were really cute.

You would tease one another.

I know.

He felt like my big brother, even though he's like younger than me.

Yes.

But he did.

He felt like my big brother that I teased and he loved it.

When I slipped into Southern drawl, he'd be like, wow, hello.

He loved it.

So next up, Todd Packer comes in the office and boy.

Does Dave Kechner own a room when he enters that room?

Yes.

Dave told me last night on the phone, he said, Todd Packer just comes in and blows up your world and then kaboom leaves.

No consequences.

Mic drops.

Yeah.

yeah later and then he's out um i have a little tidbit about dave oh tell me okay so dave told me he actually auditioned for michael scott what yes he had known greg daniels for years he had done a pilot for one of greg's uh writers on king of the hill yeah so he knew greg for a long time and they brought him in for michael scott and he said and

I was obsessed with the BBC version and all I had in my head was Ricky Gervais.

I couldn't do it any other way.

So he was doing a a little bit of an impersonation of Ricky.

Yes.

And I think a lot of people did that that came in, but Steve had not seen it.

And I think that really helped him kind of make his own person.

Yeah.

But he told me when they brought him in for Todd Packer, he was so excited because yes, it was based on Finchy, right?

In the BBC version.

Oh, yeah.

So in the BBC version, David Brent has a friend named Chris Finch and they call him Finchy.

And he is the Todd Packer of the British Show.

Basically, it's just this one-sided best friendship.

And if you can believe, Chris Finch is worse than Todd Packer.

If you watch the British show,

you think it can't get worse than Todd Packer.

If you're looking for that, check out the British version.

Exactly.

Dave said that he was so excited to come in for Todd Packer because they were just like, Dave, do whatever.

And he just was like, oh, I got this.

I got this.

Him and Steve had just done Anchorman, as we talked about.

So he knew it was just going to be playtime.

I asked Dave, I was like,

what is something you remember about first day as Todd Packer?

And he said, I remember the writing.

I remember reading that script and thinking how fantastic it was.

And I thought, when you have writing this good, anything is possible.

I can go anywhere because what I have is so solid.

And I said, did you improvise any of that?

He said, honestly, I can't remember because I remember thinking the writing was so good.

He said, if you see things that feel spontaneous, he said, the physicality of Todd Packer is very different.

You know, like all the stuff he does with Michael, the physical stuff, that's just day bringing life to Todd Packer.

But he really just

was just blown away by how good the writing was.

I remember when he came in, I was legitimately shocked and stunned.

Why?

Well, our show had been very quiet.

Oh, right.

Oh, right.

He's just a burst of energy.

And he was so loud.

And so a lot of my reactions to him are real.

They're like, what?

Why are we, why are we shouting?

What is happening?

I miss a lot.

This is so, wow.

Because I'm 75.

I'm Jen Fisher.

Why are you being so loud?

I asked Dave, because Michael has a line where he says that Todd Packer is his BFF, best friend forever.

I saw that.

Yeah.

And I said, Dave, how does Michael, like, how is he best friends with Todd Packer?

He said something I thought was so sweet, actually, and just insightful into Michael.

He said, oh, Angela, he said, Michael is so innocent and naive.

He's almost childlike.

He doesn't get a lot of what Todd Packer is.

And how is such a good observation?

Yeah, he's like a little brother looking up to someone.

And maybe somewhere down the road, he'll see how inappropriate, but he's just in this childlike, enamored phase.

Oh, I love that, Dave Kechner.

Okay, now it's time to talk about that famous Jim Talking Head with the phrase, what has two thumbs and hates Todd Packer, this guy.

All right, that joke of like, what has two thumbs and likes blank, and also the very famous line from this episode, that's what she said.

Those are not original jokes.

We did not make those up.

B.J.

Novak did not write them.

BJ said those are things that he just heard in college as a college student, and he kind of dusted them off and brought them back to this episode.

And then they took off.

I mean, especially that's what she said.

I mean, well, that makes sense because Todd Packer is sort of like a bratty frat guy, right?

Yes.

Yes.

And that's what she said had actually been on SNL.

Chevy Chase had a bit where he said it.

It was in Wayne's World.

But the origin of that joke is a British joke.

But the phrase isn't, that's what she said.

What is it?

The phrase is, as the actress said to the bishop.

Did you like my?

That just rolls off the tongue.

Yes.

But it dwindled in popularity.

It was kind of no longer in use until Ricky Gervais brought it back.

He used to start saying it.

He used to say, as the actress said to the bishop.

But it never quite was the same as that's what she said.

Okay, this is really off topic, but you know, I'm going to have a she shed for myself.

I'm making a home office.

Oh, I do.

It's all you talk about.

I know, I know.

I'm like constantly online and on Pinterest looking at little sheds that I can make into a home office.

And I've started the process, but I posted a photo of me with a shed and a fan wrote in, please call your shed your that's what she shed.

Oh, you have to.

I know.

Someone start needle pointing a pillow right now.

Oh my gosh.

I'll do it.

I like to needle point.

Will you needle point me on the that's what she shed?

Okay.

That's what she shed.

Okay.

Oh, a hundred percent.

Here's another cultural reference from this episode when Ryan takes Todd Packer down to the parking lot to drive him somewhere because of his DUIs.

He has a WL Hung.

Oh, yes.

Right?

Yes.

I have this on a quick chart.

Which, of course, Todd Packer wants everyone to think, says, well,

Ryan says, oh, are you a big fan of William Hung?

Do the millennials out there know who William Hung is?

Do they get this joke?

I wondered.

Because this was a very like

topical of the time kind of joke.

Yes.

So William Hung was an old American idol reference.

He was a contestant and he gave this horrible yet very committed rendition of Ricky Martin's She-Bangs.

Yes, season three.

And like the judges could barely hold it together.

Bless his heart.

It was so pure, so honest.

He was like an engineering student.

His secret passion in life was this thing, well, this, this was before social media, and yet this went quote unquote viral.

This video of him auditioning and he became a huge sensation.

He went on tour.

Yeah.

I think he had his like a version of like a ted talk about oh my god success but um you can still find it because i watched it last night i did too william hung i had to look it up because when i watched this episode it brought up the memory of that

also can we just mention that todd packer drives a red convertible corvette i mean buddy

yeah i think it was supposed to be a mustang and they couldn't get one and so it got changed to a corvette well it's perfect it is pretty perfect also in this episode we learn that pam's mom is coming into the office and little Pam just keeps sneaking looks at the door.

I know.

It's so cute.

Pam loves her mom.

This is going to seem like I'm being snarky to Pam's mom.

Hear me out.

Okay, well, I'm already feeling defensive.

Okay.

Pam loves her mom.

Pam's mom says, oh, is this your area?

I'm like, what?

Has she never been to the office in three years?

Three years you've been working at Dunder Mifflin, your mom's never stopped by.

It's make me sad.

Okay, I'm just saying.

I just had a moment.

I'm like, why is she so surprised to see Pam's desk?

Wow.

You are angry.

It's a really good point.

I mean, she lives in town.

I have a bunch of time code things too.

Oh, timecode us, Angela.

Okay, at five minutes, 15 seconds, you guys, there is a fantastic shot of Michael's desk when he's talking to Toby.

And I'll tell you what all you see on his desk.

You see a mini billiards table.

You see like the silver ball clacky thingy.

Yes.

Whoever wants that on their desk?

I don't know.

What is that for?

I've always wanted to.

It's probably some kind of Zen thing.

I guess.

Jenna, you see his Dundee.

Oh, yes.

There's a great shot of his Dundee.

And then what looks like is a green magic eight ball.

And in this scene, at the top of the scene, Michael is holding a giant pencil in his hand.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, if that

guy loves a Spencer's gifts.

He loves a Spencer's gifts.

It's his favorite store.

But can you imagine Toby like wants to have a serious conversation with him and Michael is holding an oversized pencil throughout the conversation?

Yes.

So that I thought was just a great, great screen grab if you want to see all the things on Michael's desk.

Okay, Aunt, what's next?

I have another Dave Kechner story.

Oh, great.

Is this another one of the stories you didn't record on your phone last night?

Yes, Jenna, it is.

All right,

thank you very much.

Let's hear it.

When Dave got the call that they wanted him to come in for Todd Packer, guess where he was?

Where?

He was in Canada filming Snakes on a Plane.

No.

Oh my God.

That just made me laugh.

He was like, yeah, I got the call.

I was filming Snakes on a Plane.

Well, I do know that they had to really manipulate the schedule in order to make it work with him.

Yeah, because he was filming Snakes on a Plane.

Yeah, we got him for one day.

We had to film all of the Todd Packer stuff in one day.

So he could then go back to Canada and be in Snakes on a Plane.

One of my favorite scenes in this episode, Angela.

Yes.

Is when I have two.

They both involve Toby.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

The first is when Toby reveals he has to do a review of the sexual harassment policy.

One thing I noticed was

I felt like Toby was super excited that he was going to get to run

something for a change and that Michael had no choice.

I don't know.

I just watched the scene a couple of times and I felt like I could see this little like happy glint in Paul's eye as he was explaining to Michael that he was going to do this, period.

But I also noticed that Toby's presentation happens in the bullpen.

Yes.

It does not happen in the conference room.

And if I remember correctly, it is because we decided that Michael would allow him to have his presentation, but not in the conference room.

Not in this space under no circumstances.

Maybe I just made that up in my own head.

Maybe it's true.

The other thing that was interesting to me that we'd never seen before is Toby does a talking head in front of the vending machine in the break room.

Oh.

And that is not where our talking heads ever are.

They're always in the conference room.

Toby is clearly, ever since he got thrown out of the conference room, has not been invited back into the conference room.

I watched the deleted scenes for this, and there is a runner of Michael talking heads where he's just talking about how much he hates Toby in different ways.

Oh my gosh.

It's so good.

I have to say, for anybody out there who is wishing there was more office or wishing you could watch more of the office, you actually can.

It is the deleted scenes.

I have been enjoying them so much.

So, really look for them because just these runner of talking heads from Michael were wonderful.

Yeah, I saw some that were pretty amazing.

And I wonder out there if there are the webisodes are available.

Oh, yeah, you guys won an Emmy Award for your webisodes.

Oh, we won an Emmy Award.

I remember that.

For the accountants.

Yeah.

I really want some more Pop-Tart.

I have it sitting next to me, but I'm afraid it's going to be really loud.

We can take a Pop-Tart break if you need to.

Angela, you want us us to take a break so you can have some Pop-Tart?

Is this how you talk to your kids?

Maybe you want to have some Pop-Tart?

Yes, I want to have Pop-Tart.

All right, guys, we're going to take a break so Angela can have more of her Pop-Tart.

Tell me, can you hear me eating this Pop-Tart?

One second.

Yeah, it's gross.

Oh, why?

It's not gross.

It's a Pop-Tart.

It's no one wants to listen to someone chew and swallow.

That is

maybe something she said.

All right, we're going to break.

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Welcome back, everybody.

All right, this is totally off topic, but in preparing for this episode, I like to go back and look at some of the old photos that I have and sort of, it helps me remember things.

You know, as you know, I'm a hoarder.

I have multiple bins of photos.

I found pictures, Jenna, from my first red carpet.

It was with you.

Oh, I was your plus one.

I will never forget this.

Uh-huh.

You know what it was called.

Yeah.

Pause for style.

Not pause button, guys, pause, like a dog, like a P-A-W-S.

Pause for style.

Yes, it was a runway show where celebrities walked a catwalk with their dogs, and the dogs were wearing the fashion.

So the celebrities were wearing whatever they showed up in, and the dogs were dressed in outfits.

It was kind of a hot mess.

And the money went to the Humane Society.

That's why we went.

Yes.

You were invited.

We were invited to bring my dog, Wesley.

And Angela, this was your first red carpet.

We talked in the Dundee's episode about how I walked the the red carpet for 40-year-old Virgin.

And I somehow just didn't do it.

You skipped it.

I don't think it was intentional.

I think I just didn't know.

I think I just went inside and got my popcorn.

But for pause for style, you did walk the red carpet.

Yeah, I wanted to pick the biggest event possible for my first red carpet.

I said, I mean, it's almost like my character, do you know how many photographers there are?

Two.

Angela over here.

Angela over here.

It was like art, like life recreating art or whatever.

What's that saying?

Life intimidating.

art.

No.

I am tired.

I just spit out my coffee because you said life

intimidating art.

I am tired, you guys.

I am so tired.

Art imitating life.

That's what I'm trying to say.

Not life intimidating art.

Oh, good lord.

Anyway, so here we are at Paws for Style.

The big name was Paula Abdul.

With her.

Two or three dogs she had.

Like three little dogs in outfits.

I remember meeting her out by the red carpet.

I remember Wesley and her dogs.

They all smelled each other as they do.

She was very nice.

Very nice.

I have great photos from this night.

I mean,

I did my own hair and makeup.

This is before I discovered a flat iron.

So it's just frizzy, guys.

It's just frizzy, down and straight.

I bought a tank top at Target.

Yep.

And I bought one at the gap.

And I layered them.

I layered my tank tops.

They're both turquoise.

Why did I layer two turquoise tank tops?

I don't know.

And then I bought some white jeans at Target.

And this is what I wore.

Now, I'm going to say something.

You always really do look good in turquoise, Angela.

Thank you.

It's a great color on you.

So I think in that way, you styled yourself well.

Thank you.

I think you can tell, because you texted me the photo of you on the red carpet.

I think you can tell

that,

how can I say this?

That you'd never done a red carpet.

I mean, you look a little bit stiff.

How can I say that?

I love, I love like how delicately you're trying to put this.

Jenna, it's like, you know how if you stand and you put your hands on your hip?

Yeah.

What if you decided to stand, but do your legs like spread way too far apart?

Yeah.

And then instead of putting your hands on your hip and you're 5'1, guys, you're 5'1,

you decide to put them on your mid thigh.

Yeah, kind of like above.

Almost like you're doing a squat.

Yeah.

Like, and then you smile to camera that that's what i did that's what she did yeah that's what i did why did i stand like that listen you guys we didn't know anything about red carpets we didn't have anyone advising us well do you remember angela after this event we saw the pictures and we decided we needed to get better at this.

Yeah.

And so and then do you remember that I had read somewhere that the reason that Mary Kate and Ashley Olson always look so cute on the red carpet is because they say the word prune while the photographers are taking their photograph.

The idea is that it makes you look like really like pouty and sexy.

So we decided at our next red carpet that we were going to say prune the whole time.

So it was like prune, prune.

They're the worst photos of me like that exist.

I think we look so I look constipated.

It was such a horrible idea.

I thought I just looked angry.

I looked like, I look like I need to poop.

That's what

I just look miserable.

Oh my gosh, Angela, I think back on all of our bright ideas.

Our bright ideas.

I think it's fair to say these are all your ideas.

Why do you walk along with them?

I don't know.

I don't, you're very persuasive.

I don't know.

I just was like, okay, I'll walk up and pretend a fake laugh as I walk up to people.

Okay, I'll say prune.

Okay.

All right.

What should we, we should get back to this episode.

Okay, let's do it.

Oh, I have a tidbit.

Great.

What's your tidbit?

I think I see John Krasinski about to break at 16 minutes, one second.

So Michael cannot say that's what she said anymore.

Yes.

He comes out of his office.

He makes a grand announcement.

He's retiring from comedy.

Yes.

And he's not going to say, you know, Jim is like, not even that's what she said.

And he's like, nope.

I remember filming this scene.

I remember filming this too.

And Steve.

as Michael, when he breaks and he goes, that's what she said.

His laugh is so huge and and giddy and contagious.

Yes.

And he's so happy and pleased with himself that we literally almost started to all laugh ourselves.

And you catch it in John for just a second.

Really?

Yeah.

Do you want to see?

Well, also, as Steve is leaving and he's being pushed back into his office by Jan and the lawyer, he get blows a kiss.

He's so happy.

But look at John's face at 16 minutes, one second.

Sam, can you pull that up?

Does that include?

That's what she said.

Yes.

Wow, that that is really hard.

You really think you can go all day long?

Well,

you always left me satisfied and smiling, so.

That's what she said.

Michael.

Michael, please.

Now look at John.

Look at John.

Do you see how he puts his hand in front of his face?

That's what he would do when he was starting to laugh.

Yes, for sure.

Yeah.

That, I mean, and that is just Steve, because he is a master.

He is such a master at like any kind of like big emotional moment.

We've talked about how it's really hard to fake laugh.

Yeah.

It's harder than fake crying.

Oh, for sure.

Steve is one of the best at the fake laugh.

For sure.

So we skipped something that I definitely want to go back to.

Okay, what?

When

Michael crashes Toby's presentation and he walks in with the blow-up doll.

Oh, yeah.

Do you remember the days and days of those guys trying to figure out which blow-up doll should be the blow-up doll.

Oh, yeah.

This is a way.

So it was like, should she have on an outfit?

Should she be wearing underwear?

Should she be wearing a bikini?

They had a variety of blow-up dolls.

This is a weird thing about working on a television show or in a movie or anything are the really just very matter-of-fact discussions about odd things.

I remember seeing our props master and Greg and

I think it must have been BJ and Ken Kwapis, but like there was a group of people looking at different blow-up dolls and having a very matter-of-fact discussion about what is funniest.

There was one that had a more open mouth.

I remember that one.

That was it.

We nixed that one.

That one was so off-putting.

Yeah.

But the other thing, too, is we'd walk on set and, you know, backstage, we would have like props and things.

And I remember walking past like five blow-up dolls every morning for like a week.

It's like, what is our life?

And then Michael has a lot of comedy with that blow-up doll.

I love that part when we're jumping around here, but when Pam's mom does finally come in and Michael walks out of his office and like chucks it out the door in like a grandiose statement, but also in the scene with Jan, it's hiding up on top of his credenza.

And Jim has his talking head with the blow-up doll.

So the blow-up doll got a lot of play in this episode.

It's very important that we pick the right one.

Yeah.

The bit of a character.

That blow-up doll was going to be featured, and those conversations were warranted.

Okay, something else I want to mention, unrelated to the blow-up doll.

When Michael takes over the sexual harassment seminar, there is a great deleted scene where Michael goes on this runner.

Did you see it?

Where he says, it's about him and Pam.

And I remember shooting the scene and I couldn't get through it.

Not the bathtub thing.

No, not the bathtub thing.

This was a different runner where Michael says, all right, take, for example, Pam and I are dating.

And I say that would never happen.

He goes, no, it's happening.

Pam and I are dating.

And I'm like, I'm engaged.

He's like, Roy died.

And I'm like, even still.

And he's like, then I would kill you.

He's now, Roy and Pam are both dead.

Look at what sexual harassment Seminar got us.

I do think a very funny thing.

I actually did see that in a montage.

That is hilarious.

Yes.

And then just Michael just like really pushing this like hypothetical situation where he and Pam are dating.

And that comes up.

every once in a while.

Every once in a while, there's a little thing where Pam has to deal with Michael's hypothetical that there's a world where maybe they're dating.

There was clearly a time he had a crush on you.

I guess so.

And he finally just gave up.

And what about in that same scene, Phyllis's line where she asks if you have to disclose one-night stands?

No, they talk about you have to report a relationship to HR.

And she goes,

All relationships, even a one-night stand?

Yes.

What is she?

Is she talking about a previous one-night stand or a future one-night stand?

I don't know, but

John's look-to-camera as Jim when she says that is so gold.

That is a classic Jim look to camera.

Let's talk about my other favorite Toby scene.

What's that?

At the end of Toby's seminar, he says, if you have any questions, you can come speak to me.

And Dwight goes to him and they have that big long conversation

where Dwight is basically asking about.

female anatomy and sex.

Yeah, it starts around 12 minutes.

I have it on a card.

A lot of people asked about that scene.

Was it scripted?

Was it improvised?

So, when Dwight asks, Where is the clitoris?

That is where the scene was supposed to end.

So, everything after that, those were all Rain's improvisations.

And they shot that scene for about two hours.

They shot it for so long.

And also, Paul is Toby was improvising as well.

Yes.

And I thought he had such a great line when he was like, Well, you know, when you're both more comfortable, you know, he has this great line.

And I wrote, Who is Dwight asking the advice for?

Right?

Is this the beginning of Dwight and Angela?

I wondered the same thing.

And people pointed this out.

Dwight seems very comfortable around women in Hot Girl.

He doesn't seem to have any of these hang-ups necessarily.

And then now suddenly in this episode, he's revealing maybe the truth, which is that he doesn't know so many things about women.

Well, I also think that he might actually have a woman finally who might be interested in doing those things with him.

perhaps?

And he's realized he doesn't have the skill set for it.

Ah, ah, I think that's what it is.

Oh, Angela.

What?

This is the first episode where we finally see the real outside of the Dunder Mifflin that we will come to know and love.

Oh, when Michael goes down to get jokes?

Yes, when he goes down to meet the warehouse guys.

Well, you see it, we see the parking lot.

Yeah.

When Ryan takes Todd Packer down, but then you really see him come down through the lobby and outside and around the corner.

And he's talking to all the warehouse guys.

I thought that was so cool.

I did too.

I thought it was great.

So the point of that scene, because I was texting with BJ about this, the point of that scene was that Michael would go down to ask for jokes.

And then the guys in the warehouse would actually start sexually harassing Michael.

Right.

So that's the point.

They start commenting on his appearance and his pants.

Packages and his lack of packages and all that sort of stuff.

And yet, somehow, this does not land on Michael.

He learns nothing from being the recipient of harassment.

It just, he's just frustrated they didn't give him a good joke he could use.

But then later, all those same warehouse guys are called up to the conference room and they have to watch a sexual harassment training video.

But did you notice it's all those guys and Kevin?

Yes.

Well, he's

here's what I think.

I think Kevin is kind of like that teenage kid who, if he, if there's any chance he might see someone in a bra

Oh maybe side boob.

Oh, he's he's in that.

He's in that.

He's the one that does the MILF joke about your mom.

Like he's kind of like I feel like the kid who is like excited to maybe see anything go down.

Well, I think that sexual harassment video is amazing.

We shot that.

That's not a real sexual harassment video.

Joel wrote in and asked, did the actors in the sexual harassment video know they were auditioning for a sitcom or did they think it was just an educational video?

That's an awesome question.

That's an awesome question.

They knew that they were going to appear on the office, but they were told to pretend like they were making a real educational video.

They did a phenomenal job.

Those guest actors were amazing.

They were amazing.

And we shot that in the actual writers' offices.

All right.

I found it hilarious that when Michael is in the scene with Jan and the corporate lawyer,

I feel like this is the first time Michael realizes that he's upper management.

Oh, and he's so proud.

He's so proud.

He's so proud of himself because he's hired James P.

Albini,

the guy from the bus stop, to be his lawyer.

I love that scene.

Actually, that's a really great scene to watch if you want to like nerd out on the camera work and the way that the camera helps tell the story on the office because that whole entrance of Michael's lawyer, the way Michael's lawyer looks directly at camera and gives a little plug for his business is pretty great.

But the camera work in that scene is really incredible.

Also, in that scene, Toby, where he's sitting, he's not been invited to sit sort of in the

circle.

Yeah, he's off against the wall.

It's a great scene to watch, just watch Toby.

And Toby, the whole scene is pretty delicious.

And Toby has a great snarky moment in that scene because, you know, Jan's like, Michael, are you going to have to watch the video again?

And he's like, I watched the video.

And Toby goes, he talked through most of it.

Yes.

He's like, Toby, Toby, throwing him under the bus.

So now we finally have to talk about the scene where Michael stands up to Todd Packer,

otherwise known as the boner scene.

The boner scene.

Todd Packer is making this joke about someone attending a nymphomaniacs convention.

Yeah, and all the gals are like perfect tens except for this one gal.

And he points to Phyllis.

And then Kevin says, like Phyllis.

And then Michael.

Phyllis looks really sad.

Oh, so sad.

So hurt.

So hurt.

And it's awkward.

First of all, do we need a joke about a nymphomaniac convention?

Todd Packer, thank you very much.

And Michael sees that Phyllis is hurt and he says that that was inappropriate.

He says something, but then Todd Packer challenges him and he's like, I mean, Kevin, Kevin, you should not say those things about Phyllis.

And then he goes on this whole speech about how Phyllis is great and how he loves Phyllis.

She's like a grandmother to them.

And she says, I mean, Michael, we're the same age.

We went to high school together.

And I love this.

I love that.

And that fact comes back to haunt Michael all the time.

She is constantly reminding him in the series that they went to high school together.

It's a really sweet scene.

And he hugs Phyllis.

And then he says the only thing he's afraid of is getting a boner.

A boner.

And then Phyllis's face, her reaction is what made it for me.

It made that whole scene.

It really did.

It really did.

And I think that there was this way where, I don't know, do you think Michael is redeemed in that moment a little bit?

Because he stands up for his group a little bit?

He does.

I think it's definitely the the first time he has stood up to Todd Packer.

And you can tell because when you see Todd Packer's face, he's like, oh man, they really got to you.

And Michael's like, no, I got to them, like, whatever that means.

But I think it's the first time he stood up to him.

And even though it's a very small way, I think it's that moment, once again, where this is our writers trying to give Michael a little bit of a growth moment.

What?

Angela, this

you just referred to the boner scene as the scene where the writers give Michael a little bit of a growth moment.

Oh, no.

That's perfect.

That's perfect.

Okay, now let's talk about the scene with Pam's mom.

We said a little bit about this earlier.

Angela, you expressed your disgust that this is her first visit.

Okay, I just am saying, like, where have you been, mom?

That's all.

I get it.

I get it, but there is more to say here.

Yeah.

So, first of all, Pam's mom was played by Shannon Cochran, and a lot of people wrote in and said, What the heck is up with Pam's mom?

Why is she played by one person in this episode and then another person later on in the show?

I will tell you, we wanted Shannon Cochran to come back.

We cast her as Pam's mom.

We intended for her to always play Pam's mom, but then we didn't need Pam's mom for a really long time.

Shannon got a theater contract, she was a touring theater actress with, you know, Rain.

Her and I had a lot to discuss.

Oh, look at you, oh, yes, theater, pedigree, fancy theater people, that's right.

Um, and she wasn't available, and so we had to recast her for those later episodes, And

it was a really weird thing because the integrity of our show was so important to us.

There was this rule for a very long time that we couldn't do any stunt casting.

Yeah.

I don't know if people know what that means.

Yeah, explain it.

Yeah.

So stunt casting means when you bring on a guest star and they're a big name guest star.

Now, of course, obviously in later years, we broke this rule.

Will Farrell.

Kathy Bates, James Spader.

Idris Elba.

Yes, exactly.

Timothy Oliphant.

On and on.

Yeah.

But for a long time, we had this rule against stunt casting.

And this kind of fell into that.

Like once somebody was established to play a character.

they were that person or they didn't come back.

The reason we broke the rule with Pam's mom and recasting is because the writers came up with a storyline that Michael would date Pam's mom.

Do you remember that?

Oh, how could I forget that?

Right, I know, and Pam ends up slapping Michael, but this storyline idea was just too good to pass up.

So they decided to recast.

And I hope that helps people with the whole two moms question.

So I want to talk a little bit about the scene when Pam's mom finally arrives and you see Roy enter.

Oh my God, in his outfit with his hair slicked down.

His sweater and he does that little dance to charm Pam's mom.

So I'm going to let you in on a little bit more of my actor prep here.

Any Angela?

What music she wants?

Yes.

Okay, what is it?

Well, you know, I had my Pam document.

And I was always asking myself questions about Pam that I thought were a mystery and I would answer them.

I need to clarify for everyone Jenna's Pam document wasn't given to her by Greg Daniels or any writers or producers this was a document that Jenna made herself for her character these are the kinds of things you learn in theater school Angela

you can suck it

these are the things we're encouraged I took some theater I took theater classes you know just trained theater

I took classes

at HB Studios in New York City okay with Carol Rosenfeld who was a protégé of Utah Hagen.

Thank you very much.

All right.

That's some pedigree.

Thank you.

All right.

I got a blessing.

Oh.

Well, in my document, I had asked myself the question: how did Pam and Roy end up together anyway?

So I've answered sort of why I think they're still together, but how did they end up together?

They seem so mismatched to me.

Here was my backstory.

Pam's family owned an appliance shop in downtown Scranton, like in the town square.

And Roy in high school got a job working at the appliance store.

And he was a great worker.

He was very charming as in the Roy you just saw here in the sweater.

And so that was how their worlds collided.

Because Pam was probably this little nerdy arts student in high school.

So I couldn't figure out how did she meet Roy.

Who was probably a jock.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And this was how he was very charming and he asked her out and they started dating.

But because he worked there, like the families became very enmeshed.

They would barbecue together.

So this is why and how she kind of can't get out of this relationship, even though now it's clear it's a mismatch.

It's because the families are so conjoined.

And do you think that Pam decided not to work at the appliance store and go out, branch out, and then Roy followed her to the warehouse?

Oh my gosh, Angela, I don't know, but I feel like I'm going to go back and put that in my document right now.

Because here's Jim, like, here's Pam, like, okay, I'm not going to work at the family business.

I need some space.

I need to figure out who I am.

Yes.

And then Roy's like, hey, I got a job at that warehouse.

We'll be able to see each other every day.

Oh, my gosh.

I find it interesting that Pam eats in the break room with Jim and not in the warehouse with Roy.

Now, we see Roy sometimes eat there.

Yeah, they don't eat lunch together, do they?

Not very often.

And then Pam's mom has the moment in this episode where she whispers, which one is Jim?

And you see John Krasinski's face.

He's all pleased that he knows now that Pam.

And by the way, in Casino Night, we know Pam calls her mom on the phone to, you know, share about what happened in the parking lot.

Well, I just love the moment and John played it so well where he sees his opportunity to introduce himself to Pam's mom and he gets up the courage and he walks over right as Roy walks in and he just quickly takes like a piece of candy and goes back to his desk.

And that kind of broke my heart for him.

Lastly from Dave Kechner, who plays Todd Packer, he said, And please let everyone know I am nothing like Todd Packer in real life.

Oh, and it's true, everyone.

I know.

Dave is.

Just a sweet, sweet, sweetheart, father of five.

I know.

And he said, he goes, I just wish you and Jenna all the best.

This is such a great idea.

I just love it as a fan of the show.

It's got to be hard to to believe that he is not like Todd Packer for some people.

To imagine that if you met him, he is just the warmest, nicest,

wonderful gentleman.

I know.

Yeah, I think sometimes you get known as this character, but he's nothing like that.

I'm nothing like Angela Martin.

This is true.

You're a little bit like Pam.

I am.

All right, guys, that was sexual harassment.

That was sexual harassment.

We did it.

Next week is Office Olympics with special guest director Paul Fieg.

He is the best dressman in show business, for sure.

Go to his Instagram.

It is delightful.

Thank you for listening to Office Ladies.

Office Ladies is produced by Earwolf, Jenna Fisher, and Angela Kinsey.

Our producer is Cody Fisher.

Our sound engineer is Sam Kiefer.

And our theme song is Rubber Tree by Creed Bratton.

For ad-free versions of the show and our bonus episodes candy bag, go to stitcherpremium.com.

For a free one-month trial of Stitcher Premium, use code Office.

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