A Look Back on an Interview with Zach Woods

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Hello, everybody.

Hey there.

Guess what?

My play just opened.

Her play just opened and I went went for opening night.

You did, but you actually haven't done it yet because we're recording this before the play opened.

But I'm hoping that you had a great time and you loved it.

I'm sure I had a wonderful time and I'm sure you were fantastic and the play was amazing and I probably ate great food in Chicago.

Yeah, what else do you think happened while you were there?

Did you meet some wonderful people?

I introduced you to the cast, I'm sure.

Yeah, I'm also sure I made, you know, really good friends with a perfect stranger at the airport.

I'm sure that's a good idea.

I tend to do that.

I probably got to know like my cab driver really well.

Probably know his backstory.

Maybe he in another life, you know, before he was a cab driver, did river rafting.

I probably got really deep into that conversation.

These are all of our probabilities because we are actually recording this before you go off.

And lady, you know what?

I know we're joking around here, but I am really going to miss you.

Aw.

Yeah.

I'm going to to miss you.

I'm going to miss this.

I know.

I think we might need to pop on and do a little Friday chit-chat.

We have to.

You're going to have all these great Chicago stories.

I am going to Iceland.

I am going to the penis museum.

Yeah.

And we're going to need to let people know how that went.

All right.

Well, listen.

On that note.

On that note.

How do we segue here?

Since we're out of town, we wanted to re-air one of our favorite interviews with Zach Woods.

You know, he played Gabe Lewis on the office.

He shares with us what it was like to join the show in the middle of season six.

Plus, we ask him about some of his favorite memories on the show and then he ends up kind of interviewing us.

It's such a great conversation.

We hope you enjoy it and we will see you next week with all new episodes.

All right, have a good one.

I'm Jenna Fisher.

And I'm Angela Kinsey.

We were on the office together.

And we're best friends.

And now we're doing the Ultimate Office rewatch podcast just for you.

Each week we will break down an episode of The Office and give exclusive behind-the-scenes stories that only two people who were there can tell you.

We're the office ladies.

Hello.

Hey, welcome back.

Welcome back from Thanksgiving.

We hope everybody had good meals and good times.

Yes, with friends and family.

Some people do friendsgiving.

One of my favorite Thanksgivings was a friendsgiving.

It was was my first year in Los Angeles.

I couldn't afford to fly home to see family.

Yeah.

So me and my other friends who were in LA, we got together and we had a Thanksgiving.

My friend Luda, she's Russian.

She brought this Russian vodka.

We all got so hammered.

That's a friendsgiving.

It was so fun.

I actually just found a picture of us recently.

It came up in my memory.

Really?

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

I love that.

Yeah, we had traded it.

You know, Josh,

he bought me the most insane thing last year for Thanksgiving.

And he was like, this is going to be a tradition now.

You're going to have to wear it every Thanksgiving.

I was like, babe.

What is it?

Okay.

You know, I'm always cold and I always want a cozy onesie.

I'm like, babe, get me a onesie.

Get me a cozy onesie.

Okay.

Lady, it's a turkey.

A turkey onesie?

And first of all, it's a one-size-fits-all.

So it's enormous.

Do you eat in it?

Do you wear it all day?

No, I can't.

It's like wearing a giant blanket.

I can't eat eat in it, but I do put it on.

I've only done, this is my second year.

Okay.

I don't know what the tradition of this turkey onesie is going to be, but I told him, here's what I'll do because he thinks it's so cute.

I put it on and I watch the Macy's Day parade in my turkey onesie.

Okay.

And then

we get the food prep going, but I don't wear it to the actual Thanksgiving dinner.

What is it that Josh thinks this is so funny?

I look like a tiny, tiny turkey.

Do you watch football?

Oh, yeah.

Football's always on.

So when I got into football, I was dating a guy who was from Detroit.

And you know, Detroit plays every Thanksgiving.

And the Cowboys.

Yes.

Now I'm married to a Dallas man.

Yeah.

Now I'm a Cowboys fan.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So Cowboys, every Thanksgiving.

You got to work the meal around it.

Half of my family's from Texas.

Lady.

It's always from.

You know.

What am I saying?

I know.

Of course.

Well, listen, we have a really exciting show for you today.

I don't even know what to say about it.

It's maybe one of my favorite episodes we've ever done.

Jenna and I are in love with this interview, you guys.

I'm sorry, it's an interview, but it was so wonderful.

Well, Jenna, you tell everyone.

Well, we got to sit down with Zach Woods.

As you know, Zach played Gabe Lewis on 52 episodes of The Office.

He was on from season six to season nine.

We talk all about it.

We talk about his entire time on the show and other things.

Here's the thing.

He's just so interesting and he's so smart and funny.

And we would be talking about the show and then he would throw you an eye like a curveball question.

Like a deep life

question about what it means to be just human and alive.

Like

so fun.

I just can't wait for everyone to listen to this interview.

I just love it.

Well, you guys, Zach is currently working on a new stop-motion animation series called In the Know.

He's the co-creator, the director, and star of the show.

And Greg Daniels is one of the executive producers.

So you know this is going to be good.

The show premieres on Peacock in the new year, so be on the lookout.

Yeah, we'll share about it in stories.

But you know what?

I think we take a quick break and get to this interview because it's so fantastic.

You're going to love it.

And the second half, dare I say, is even better than the first.

It keeps getting better and better.

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Hello, Zach.

Hello, Zach.

How wonderful to see you.

How wonderful to see you and you.

Should we tell people we've actually been chatting off mic for like 30 minutes?

Oh, seriously, we've been talking for half an hour, but we decided we should probably get to the podcast.

Yes.

They literally said we're going to do a big fake hello, and then you immediately called on yourself.

You're giving away our secrets.

Sorry.

I'm going to do an office man,

office ladies podcast where I tell the stories behind the office ladies podcast.

Okay.

Oh, it'll be like Russian dolls.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

So you listen to office ladies and then you break down our podcast.

Right.

And I'll have you guys on to talk about the podcast when you're talking about the.

This might be a genius idea.

Well, we're going to kick things off with a question we ask all of our guests to start, which is, how did you get your job on the office?

it's a good question allison jones who you guys both know was like a fairy godmother to me like she for people who i mean i know you've talked about her on the show but she was the casting director for the show and like basically american comedy for a decade or more right and she brought me in to her office which was in gower studios where i guess they used to shoot i love lucy and stuff yeah right isn't that right i think so yeah it was like one of these old hollywood things it's got like plaques everywhere Right.

Yeah.

And like plaster.

And it just feels like, you know, whatever.

You can, like, it's like where you can imagine like Clark Gable stumbling into there after he like killed someone with him and be like, telling his publicist, like, bury it.

But anyway, uh,

poor Clark Gable.

Sorry, Clark Gable.

You probably never killed anyone.

I'm sorry.

I just feel like I, you know, like old Hollywood stars are always killing people and telling their publicists to come back.

Bury it.

Get rid of it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She was just some girl.

No one's going to know.

Yeah.

Anyway, but got distracted.

Okay.

Alison Joe.

Alison Joe.

So I remember meeting with her and I'd done this movie called In the Loop and she'd seen it and she brought me in for a meeting and I really hadn't done anything except for this one little independent movie.

And she talked to me for like an hour.

And then at the end of it, she just went, I'm going to help you.

Which is such a wild thing for someone to say in Hollywood, you know, and then even a wilder thing to mean and follow through on.

And then she got me a meeting with Greg, Daniels, and Paul, and

they just gave me a part on The Office, which is a show that I had been like obsessively watching.

I felt like I won a contest.

Like, you know what I mean?

Like, you win a raffle and you can do like a walk-on on like a TV show.

Like, I felt like it was so bizarre to me that she almost like to a suspicious degree where I was like, who's going to jump out and say, gotcha?

Right.

Yeah.

Or is she going to like, am I going to get a call in here where Allison Jones is like, throw napalm in one of my enemies' faces?

It's like time for payback.

You know, you have have to be like, yeah, exactly.

And then, yeah, and then I just got this part.

And then I moved into this house in Echo Park where it was a basement and I'm tall and there were these rafters.

So I had to constantly duck.

Like I couldn't, it was the ceiling was too low.

So I was constantly doing these like kind of body rolls around my living room.

And I was somehow she got wind of this and she was like, oh, I have an empty condo in Beachwood Canyon, which I'll give to you for a song, basically.

And then she gave me this like beautiful condo to live in for like very low rent, where they used to house, it was like a dormitory for starlets back in the like, it was like the MGM gals would be there.

And in the basement, there was a beauty salon where they had to go through the works before they could go out into the world because they didn't want anyone seeing like the MGM girls looking less than their best, basically.

So I was effectively an MGM girl thanks to Allison Jones.

But I'm being long-winded.

I'm a little, like, we're a little nervous because we're starting out.

I'll be less long-winded, but I will just say, Allison Jones, I will never be able to adequately express the difference that allison jones made in my life professionally residentially personally just like that woman just like tapped me with her magic wand and gave me my life as a you know in l A basically I mean we feel the same way about Allison Jones yeah I had a general meeting with her

and she sort of did the same thing it was like one hour meeting Hey, I like you.

I think you're talented.

I'm going to help you out.

And then just called me in for years for little bit parts.

And then eventually, how lucky am I that the person who decided to help me was hired to cast The Office?

That was just my good luck.

Yeah.

You know, because then she was like, well, I'm going to have you meet on this new show, The Office.

So it was the same thing.

Like, and I've heard people tell this story about Allison Jones many, many times.

It's crazy.

And she has like this kind of like flinty New Englander quality where if you try to tell this to her face, it's just like it's like shining light on a vampire or something.

She just refuses the accolades, right?

Yeah, that's right.

She can't tolerate it.

It's just like, that's been my experience anyway, where you try to like look her in the eyes and be like, thank you.

Yeah, she's like,

no, it's not.

Here, have a homemade cookie I just made because she always has like delicious cookies.

Right.

She just feels like that awesome, warm aunt that's on the lookout for you.

It's true.

Allison, we love you.

I love you.

FYI, if you haven't gathered it.

Besides In the Loop, which I remember and which everyone was talking about when you came to work with us, it's a great movie.

Besides that, what was your background?

Like, do you have an improv background?

Yeah, I started doing improv at Upright Citizens Brigade in New York, and I mostly just thought I was going to do that.

I remember talking to someone and being like, I just want to get a temp job and do improv at night.

That was eight years of my life.

It's fun, right?

Yeah.

Did you feel like when you were doing that, did it feel unsatisfying in some fundamental way?

No, it was the most fun.

Right.

It was the most fun because the job I didn't really care about.

I just needed to pay bills so I could go do improv.

And then you're with like, you have a community.

Yeah, and they all are like-minded.

And we were so into it.

We were probably really obnoxious.

Well, I used to teach too when I was in New York to help like, I like teaching and also it helped me survive.

But I remember once being in a cab in New York and going past an improv theater and seeing all these adults outside and they were like throwing like imaginary knives to each other or whatever.

They were doing some like warmup.

It was so humiliating and so you could not look nerdier and less cool.

And these people, I just felt my heart swell in my chest.

Like seeing these like grown adults just like kind of, they look so happy.

They were just like being so cringe, so happily out in public in New York on the street.

I was just like, God bless you guys.

Like it's so sweet.

Like I found it so moving.

I feel like I went in.

I thought it was so perfect when they made the choice to have Michael Scott in an improv group.

It's so perfect.

It was so perfect.

Like, I took improv classes with a Michael Scott.

Oh, my God.

It's mostly Michael Scott.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh.

How much were you told about the character Gabe?

Did you know it was going to be like a long arc?

No, I didn't know much.

It's a pretty foggy memory because I think because it felt like such a, I felt like such a raffle winner where it's like you can be on your favorite show,

it created like such a rush of anxiety that like, I've never experienced anything like it before since.

Like to be like completely inexperienced as a TV actor and to be thrust into a show where you're like, you know what I mean?

It's just like, it was really overwhelming.

And I remember like

when I first moved out here, right before I started filming, I remember there was like some moment.

This is a really crazy compromising moment.

I was at Walmart.

First of all, I didn't know how to drive because I've been living in New York.

So I had to, like, as an adult man, go to Pennsylvania and have my father like reteach me to drive because I was like, I'm going to be in LA.

You have to teach me to drive.

So my dad taught me to drive, like, some weird, like, little short film or something.

Like, and then I remember when we started shooting, driving terrified me so much that I would show up on set and my jaw would be so clenched that I had a hard time saying saying words.

So I would take CDs, Frank Sinatra C Ds, and I would put them in the car and force myself to sing along with old blue eyes so that my jaw would stay open, so that I wouldn't show up with like rigor mortis face.

Yeah.

And then I think before I had even shot my first scene, being in a Walmart, buying like multiple humidifiers and lozenges and shit, because I was like, I'm going to lose my voice and then I'm not going to be able to do it.

And I'm going to, I was so panicked and I was worried I was going to forget my lines.

So I was like muttering my lines in a Walmart.

For some reason, I didn't get a basket.

So I just had like armfuls of like humidifiers and lozenges just like muttering like my lines to myself like a crazy person.

So what I really remember from that time is just the white hot panic of like,

you know, like.

Were you prone to losing your voice?

What was this anxiety about losing your voice?

I was prone to losing my mind.

I was like, you in the Walmart.

I think it was just like anything.

You know, you have like free-ranging, sometimes I feel like anxiety is just like a giant military helicopter that needs some place to land.

You know what I mean?

And it was like, oh, today it'll be landing on the landing pad of like vocal anxiety.

Tomorrow it'll be like whatever that, you know, some weird hypochondriacal thing in a different direction.

Yes.

Yes.

So I don't remember what they told me, but I didn't think I was, I thought it might just be a few episodes and then they gave me more and I was like, wow, that's great.

Do you remember your first day on set?

Yeah.

What did you shoot your very first day?

I think the first thing I shot was a, to camera, like one of the interviews.

A talking hat.

A talking hat.

Okay.

Yeah.

That's a good way to start, actually, because it's just you.

No one is dependent on your line for timing.

You're not driving a scene.

Right.

So I think that's actually a really smart way to start.

They might have done that on purpose, too.

What was your first impression coming on the set?

Well, John Krasinski directed the episode that I was doing.

And I remember something happened on set and it like took longer than they were expecting.

So I was sort of in my trailer just churning.

And then they they called me to set.

And I think John knew that I was kind of like pent up and terrified.

And so he just like, even though I'm sure it had been a long day and there was a lot left to shoot, he like let me just improvise a lot in the talking head.

I doubt they used any of it, but it just was like, it let me relax.

And he was so kind about it.

The big thing that I remember.

And part of why I was like excited to do this is because like I'm not good at staying in touch with people and stuff, but I feel, yeah, that I feel like is important to me to communicate to people who listen to this, which is the level of kindness and hospitality that was extended to me on that show

was bizarre.

Like, if you're in the late seasons of a TV show that has like such a deep bench of amazing characters and some new person shows up who's gonna suck up even more oxygen, eat up more story time, you know what I mean?

It would be very easy to understand if people were not all that receptive to that, especially if it's someone who's like a rookie who's still just like learning about like, okay, what's an eye line?

How do I like, what's a mark?

You know what I mean?

Like stuff, like just very rookie stuff that I'm having to learn on the go.

Like it would be totally reasonable if people had a kind of professional detachment from that person.

But everyone was so ostentatiously kind to me.

Ostentatious makes it sound bad.

Just generous, kind.

Like you guys were so lovely to me.

You guys were so sweet to me and inclusive.

I remember like, I would just sort of camp out at like Phyllis and Leslie's desk and watch them like shop for, they were both like decorating their houses and they were like, yes, she was looking for a gate for like, I think two years.

She wanted one.

Maybe.

We looked at every gate possible.

I just remember basically, yeah, like gate shopping with Leslie and Phyllis.

And like they would show me and they would be so nice and joke around with me.

I remember Kate Flannery really went out of her way.

Oscar, all the, and not just in a kind, again, not just in a perfunctory, like professional way.

They'd invite me to their houses.

You guys would include me in like social stuff.

I just, it was so, it was like the photo negative of what happened to the character Gabe, right?

Like Gabe is like this

unfortunate creepy guy shows up and is immediately and utterly ostracized.

It was like, yeah, it was the exact opposite where I was like, oh my God, look at this.

Like this group of people is just like so envelopingly sweet.

So that was life-changing because I was already so fragile and terrified because it was such a new experience.

And I wanted so desperately to do a good job.

And to be met with that kind of

generosity of spirit was, I think, formative for me.

I mean, we loved the character Gabe.

I mean, in re-watching, like,

Gabe has made us laugh so hard.

But one of the things we've been most excited about doing this podcast is being able to reconnect with these people that were such an amazing chapter of our life.

And you're one of those people.

We've talked about you so much.

We're so happy you're here.

I mean, we

still talked about the gift you brought to my Yankee swap Christmas party, which was a sarcophagus like jewelry box.

It was the gift that everyone wanted.

I mean, legend gift.

Thank you.

I mean, that's like white elephant stuff is like a real source of anxiety, right?

Because it's like, it feels like a moral spiritual test.

So I'm glad that I passed.

You passed and I have the sarcophagus.

Yes, it's mine.

Yeah, I went home with it.

Yeah, I have it on my bookshelf.

And it's not cursed or anything, right?

Doesn't seem like it.

Okay, cool.

Yeah, it seems like Dad, you.

I hadn't actively pursued a curse, but if there's a small sarcophagus, the odds that it has some sort of curse feels pretty high.

It's been good so far.

It's doing great for you.

It is.

It was a heated battle that you won.

I also, off topic here, but in anticipation of talking to you today, I sort of went back through old emails and I have some great photos of you that I sent a long, long time ago to you to probably an old email, but they're great.

They're just of you hanging out on set.

So I need to make sure you get those.

I would love that.

Yeah.

I would love that.

Yeah.

Not that I was a creeper taking pictures of you.

There are other people.

There's a camera in the men's room, which I got a lot of candied snaps.

No.

But I did.

I found a few when we were at Shroot Farms.

They were just great.

So I'm going to make sure you get those.

With Grobin.

Yes.

With Josh.

That's a really surreal moment being like, I'm on a farm with Josh Grobin and like all these people have been watching for years.

It's just such a weird thing.

Where am I?

Yeah, did someone like dose me with acid and I'm like just back in my

like basement apartment in Hell's Kitchen having like a weird fever dream?

Yeah.

So I watched like your first couple of episodes, which must have been so insane because you're talking about being new and everything.

Right.

So like there's this scene where you enter Dunder Mifflin for the first time and Dwight is holding a giant tray of hot dogs.

And then

Aaron and Andy sing the Sabre song.

Yes.

That is so crazy.

And then the next episode, you're like wrestling some great Danes and you're talking to Kathy Bates.

Kathy Bates.

I know that's crazy.

When did they tell you that you would be working with Kathy Bates?

You know, this is not a satisfying answer, but the truth is, again, it's just this sort of like pummeling

of anxiety.

Yeah.

Like, I don't even know.

I felt like I was like being beaten into a happy gang or something.

It was like, just like, it's just like, I don't know, like, Kathy Bates,

like the office, like you're in LA, you're driving and you're going to be like, it just felt like this kind of like word jumble of like, I don't know.

What's next?

Yeah.

I just felt like, like, I don't remember finding it out.

Like, it's like the fog of war.

I'm just like, I don't remember.

Like,

that's very funny.

We were so nervous about Kathy Bates being on set.

Really?

Oh, my gosh.

Yeah.

What were you nervous about?

Just that she would tell me.

Just anything, just like making eye contact.

She was such a presence.

And then she was so kind.

I think it was just her stature and her body of work.

And we had avoided for so long having like these big name actors on the show.

And so this was kind of a turning point.

And it was very shocking.

It felt like, you know?

Yeah.

So my hair colorist had once colored Kathy Bates' hair.

This gymnast.

And he told me this like years ago, you know, and just, you know, when hairdressers just tell you their lore while they're doing your hair.

And he's like, well, you know, I used to color Kathy Bates' hair.

And, oh, what a woman.

And he just like so admired her and all this.

He didn't gossip, but he just did name drop that he had colored her hair.

So when I knew she was coming on the show, I had to resist that urge, you know, when like the second I saw her not to be like, we have the same hair colorist.

hi I'm Jenna our hair colorist he colored your hair once

welcome to the show I'm so impressed that you suppressed that I know that would come just tumbling out of my mouth I held it I can't remember for how long I think I made it several days and then I did finally say

you know Robert Hicklund hair colorist i think we um i think he and oh yes bobby yes i know him yes wonderful guy We should be best friends now.

Well, that was my next line.

So, we are clearly best friends then.

Same hair colorist.

So much in common, right?

I'm your emergency contact.

Yeah, exactly.

Let me ask you, like, so, because for many people, you are that.

Like, in other words, when people see you, right, it generates the same feelings in them that Kathy Bates generated in you.

So, what is the version?

Like, when people come up to you guys and are like, actually, did you know that we shared a, you know, whatever, we stay in the same summer camp cabin, da, da, da, da, da.

Like, does it feel alienating to you when people do that?

Or does it feel nice?

Or does it just depend on the person?

Like, well, I guess what I'm asking is, like, or maybe, is it okay to ask you a question?

Yeah, yes, please.

What is the version of being approached in a situation like that?

Where maybe it's not just like in the airport, but it's like a situation that has some containment

that feels good to you versus the one that feels like,

like if you're Kathy Bates, how do you want someone to approach you?

Well, I'll say that I just did the Mean Girls movie musical.

I play the mom.

Yay.

And after I got on the set and I like was working, I called Angela and I was like, Angela, we are now like the old lady, like the people, like these kids and the crew and stuff, they're treating me like the way we were around like Kathy Bates or around some of these like people who had like the resumes and all that kind of stuff.

I'm like, it's so weird.

And it feels like

it was so bizarre because I was like, oh, I'm like, not at all worthy of your,

what do you call it?

Like, they're just giving me like, like,

yes, like, sort of like, we thank you so much for doing our film.

And the directors were just like, we can't believe we got you.

And I'm like, you can't?

I like, it's the mean girls movie musical.

I feel like people are lining up to do this.

You're being so overly kind to me but i do remember that like when we would be at an award show like someone from a television show that we had watched you get a chance to meet them or they give you an award or something you're like oh my god i can't believe this person i was like we're the old timers now yeah we're the old timers who have been in the biz for a while and i i actually thought it was really cool i'm still very humbled by it all that you know that i got to stop temping and

got to,

you know, take the skills I learned from my improv classes and get paid to do something I love.

It's still very humbling to me that people watch the show, enjoy the show, want to watch me be silly or whatever it is.

You know, I always feel like I won the lottery.

So I was still taken aback by it, like what you're saying.

It just, I don't think that'll ever go away.

I'm still, I still can't believe I, I got to do this, you know?

I wonder if Kathy Bates had that feeling.

Yeah, maybe.

I will tell you, here's an example of when maybe it's not fun or appropriate.

I, towards the end of my pregnancy, was having some pain and they said, okay, let's get you to the specialist for this special kind of sonogram where they can make sure everything's okay.

I was having a lot of pain in my pelvis.

So I met with this person I've never met before, and he's conducting the sonogram.

You know, I'm just like laying there.

And he's like, so is Dwight going to be stopping by?

Oh, boy.

uh-huh.

And I was like, You mean a fictional character I'm in a television show with that is not the father of my baby?

No,

what?

Like, I'm coming to you because I have pain in my pelvis and you're giving me a sonogram, and I'm laying here feeling so exposed.

And you asked me, I knew he was like,

and he had been like 20 minutes, so he'd been holding on to that.

And then he was just like, When is Dwight stopping by?

So, maybe, maybe,

here's a tip: like, if if you're in that situation, maybe go bring up the TV show.

Medical professionals in particular should never bring up your celebrity in an exam room.

Well, I think that's fair.

That should, that's just a good, solid boundary.

Yeah.

You're probably there because you're worried about something.

Yes.

That's right.

That's right.

Yeah.

You know what?

Tell me in the lobby.

Tell me in the lobby.

You need to be you.

Yeah.

Right.

You need to be who you are and know that that person sees you.

Right.

You know, I think an analogy that I think of all the time is like, I'm an adult person and I pay a mortgage and I'm raising two children and, and all this stuff.

And yet all the time I feel like a little bit of like,

I can't believe that I am tasked with these adult responsibilities.

Like I can't like young people.

will look at me and I know that I look like an old person to them, but like inside, I still kind of feel like a flailing 23 year old who doesn't know what they're doing.

So I feel like that's part of it too.

Like when people are approaching me and they're like, oh my God, I love your body of work and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I still feel like the struggling actor who's trying to make it.

Like that's never left me.

I will say like before I was on the show, that blog post you wrote to actors.

Yeah, that I turned into a book later.

Yeah.

But at that point, I think it was just available.

It was just a blog post.

Yeah.

Advice to actors.

It was so, because I'd read that a lot multiple times before ever meeting you or being on the show.

Oh my gosh, I didn't even know that, Zach.

Yeah, it was so orienting.

I think, because a lot of times I think when people can feel the distance between how they're perceived and how, and their interior sense of themselves, what you're describing, I think sometimes people's response to that is to try to identify publicly only with the way they're perceived or something.

But I remember for you at that time to share the flailing, to share the kind of blemishy, angsty, unsure kind of experience that you'd had

was so helpful because it's so isolating to aspire to something.

Well, I don't know if that's even true.

It's, it's scary to, what am I trying to say?

There's a Cherry Jones, you know Cherry Jones, the actor Cherry Jones.

She has this quote that I love so much where she says, theater is where we comfort each other with our shortcomings, whereas like, I'll show you mine and you'll see yours reflected and then we'll have a night of laughs and catharsis and whatever.

In a way, like when you wrote that thing, it's like, not that that's shortcomings exactly, but I felt comforted by your vulnerability and by your ownership of that vulnerability because I felt so vulnerable.

So seeing like, oh, wow, someone who I admire who has a.

like a exciting career and who

is willing to be introspective and revealing in this way and expose the

gap between public perception and interior experience.

Like that for me was really helpful.

Sorry, that's such a long-winded question.

I loved every word of that.

No, and I think it's your question too, which is like, we were so in awe of Kathy Bates, but like maybe Kathy Bates just feels like the same tripping over her own feet actor that we all feel like when we first start a role or first start a job or whatever, but we never asked because we just assumed she must be filled with all this confidence and all of this, all of it.

But that also goes back to you, Zach.

You talk about all this anxiety and you're holding these things in walmart and you can't believe you're on the show

you were seamlessly a part of our show from the very beginning like it's kind of blowing my mind that you're telling me that you were anxious or that you even were inexperienced because i knew you had done in the loop but i assumed like there were all these other things too i had no i really had no idea that the office was your first television job like and and for how just amazing you were

right so just amazing right out of the gate and such a smart improviser.

I know I'm being improv nerd here, but I just love it when people are really smart and say really witty, smart things and don't go for the obvious joke and don't go for too much and are understated and you're all of those things.

And I have loved watching your scenes so much.

And I love going to the script and reading the script and then watching your scenes because you.

I think

maybe you and Steve improvise the most.

Honestly, I think

if you look at how many episodes you're in and improvise so well, you know, that's very sweet.

I mean, I, yeah, it's so nice.

I, I, I started taking acting classes because I, I, I would hire in between,

like when we'd be shooting, I would go back to New York and I had this acting coach named Anya Saffir, who's this, who I would go, shout out to Anya Saffir, because I'd never gone to acting school or anything.

So I would go do like scenes from Tennessee Williams Place and like take voice classes and do like Alexander technique and all this because I was like, I just felt, I had such deep imposter syndrome because I hadn't done it before.

So it's a, it's nice to hear that it

wasn't flagrantly obvious.

That's good.

That's relief.

This is a great segue for us to ask you if you had ever played Abe Lincoln other than on the office.

I'd been sent an audition for Abe Lincoln Vampire Hunter, where I had to learn the Gettysburg Address and I was not hired to be Abe Lincoln Vampire Hunter.

But other than that, I'd never played Abe Lincoln.

Wait, so Abe Lincoln recited the gettysburg address while killing vampires or being a vampire i he vampire hunter i think he hunted the vampires hunted the vampires but you know how it is with vampires you start out hunting them and then you want to be one become one yeah i think they just wanted to see people do the gettysburg address to see if they were plausible as lincoln and then they were going to like get to the vampire hunting in like a later stage of the casting process or something

so i did for a while know the gettysburgh address because you had done that prior to playing a lincoln on the office Yeah, I think so.

Wow.

Yeah.

So there was a small part of you that had played Abe Lincoln.

It's not for an audit.

I mean, like, my body had played Abe Lincoln my entire life.

I had the doctor, I remember Abe Lincoln had something called Marfan syndrome, which is like this, I guess it's like a congenital heart defect or something.

I don't know.

Basically, like the symptoms are your wings span is greater than your height, and you have something called epectus excavatum, I think, which I have.

It's like this weird divot in your chest.

I remember going to the doctor and him being like, oh, Abe Lincoln had Marfan syndrome.

We're going to screen you for it.

And then being just shocked that I didn't have it because I had like all the other.

Yeah, I had like all the symptoms of Abe Lincoln's disease, but not the actual diagnosis, not to break out hold your applause.

What are some of your favorite scenes or moments from the show?

It's funny.

Like, I remember hearing some interview with Mark Rylance, the actor, where he said, like, when you die, probably like the thing that flashes before your eyes isn't the episodes of the shows but the experience you had making them like and I think for me when I think of the show it's sort of a a gauzy feeling of like I remember lunch a lot I remember like hanging out with people like in between setups and stuff in terms of scenes like I think It took me a while till after I was off the office when I started to be able to really enjoy scenes because I didn't feel like, oh, God, what if I fuck this up?

Right, right.

You could be an audience member and watch it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I really liked stuff where I liked getting into fights with Ed Helms.

I thought that was fun.

I like using Ed Helms.

I looked online to see what are the fan favorite quotes of Gabe.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

And I share one of them

with the internet.

So I loved so much in Search Committee when you just start asking him questions about the sun and then Andy knows all this information about the sun and you say, shut up about the sun.

Shut up about the sun.

So that made it as one of best Gabe quotes.

It's also one of mine.

Here's another one: walk away, bitch.

Oh, yeah, that was to Andy, right?

Yeah, that's to Andy.

I remember that.

And then this is one I forgot, and I actually had to go and re-watch the episode.

We haven't gotten to it yet, Jenna.

It's from Turf War.

And Gabe says, Sometimes I wonder if I have ovaries in my scrotum because I am great at girl talk.

Jesus Christ.

That's the most upsetting.

Sorry, sorry, America.

That's the most upsetting phrase I've ever heard.

Oh, my gosh.

And the other one was, there are plenty of people who love touching me.

Oh, I remember that scene.

That's heartbreaking.

That's when Kelly Hugs came.

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When we were re-watching search committee,

it's Toby, Gabe, and Jim are the search committee, and you got to interview all of those amazing like actors doing the cameos.

Are there any that stood out to you?

I remember Will Arnett would do this thing where he would sort of start improvising.

Like he'd be joking around in this way that was so unbelievably funny in between takes.

And then when they would call action, it was sort of like just continue in a way.

I remember being like, oh, wow, that's fascinating.

Like he's kind of in a, it doesn't stop in between cut and action.

He's like kind of not in a tiring way.

You know, there's people who are like on in a way that it wasn't like that.

It was just like he was sort of in this, it was like he was keeping it like uh simmering or something it was i remember being fascinated by that yeah and i remember feeling like immediately like ray romano i just want to like rest my head on his shoulder like he was like so warm and and sweet and and i really loved him and

then i also like it was fun i remember we like interview people from the office, which was fun to do.

Your interview of Mindy as Kelly was really funny.

And I think it's in the bloopers because Gabe decides that, oh, maybe I'm going to be the voice of reason here.

And he looks at Jim and Toby when Kelly walks in and goes, We don't really need to go through all this, do we?

We're not, we're not, this isn't like a serious interview, right?

And they both just throw you under the bus.

And Toby's like, no, I think we, it is serious.

And then Gabe says to Kelly, what are your weaknesses?

And Kelly goes, I don't have any ass.

Something like that.

But you guys, you could tell that Mindy was like breaking, you know, and just the whole scene is so funny.

I imagine there's a lot of great bloopers from that day.

Yeah.

I mean, and by that point, I guess that was late enough in the shooting process where I felt like my blood pressure had dropped incrementally a little bit and I was able to that's it looked like you were having I remember enjoying those scenes more where I was like okay like I think after they brought me back for another season I thought like well if they were horrified they wouldn't have done that and that really put me at ease where I just thought okay well if they've decided they want me here then

it's their funeral I can't, you know, I'll take it.

The other thing when I looked up the character Gabe and I did like an image search, one of the first things that comes up is Gabe as Lady Gaga.

Yeah.

That costume was,

oh my gosh.

I just remember you were in hair and makeup for so long.

Yeah.

You had the eyelashes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've never felt more like myself

on set.

I think that, you know, I never walked in high heels before.

I don't know where they found high heels my size, but it was.

It was your shoe size.

11 and a half, a modest 11 and a half.

We're not, you know,

but it was,

I don't know if you guys know this, extremely hard to walk.

We have an idea.

What?

Yeah, yeah.

I know.

No man has ever told you this.

It was so hard to move.

I couldn't believe it.

I was like, wait, people do this for hours at a time?

It's kind of insane.

It's ridiculous when you think about it.

It's like, I'm going to design a shoe where you're up on your tippy toes.

Now go walk all day.

Not just that.

So many high heels they're made for a foot where you just have one long center toe yes true like not even the shape of your foot which luckily i do have that is awesome

center toe that was also an abraham lincoln yes that's one of the symptoms of my van syndrome just a single single long toe

in terms of volume it's the same volume as five toes but just it isn't one

toes right exactly All right, we have one other question we've been curious about with the great Danes.

You had to work a a lot with these giant dogs was there anything like any memory from working with those dogs yeah they were like frustratingly professional really yeah i was like you know with a dog you just want to like rub your face and their snout you just want to be like oh i love you you're beautiful you're a miracle and they were just like we're working they just were so focused they had that like working dog thing where they were just like not screwing around.

Yeah.

And I was like, no snuggles, no snuggles.

I was like, spoon me, great Dane.

And they're like, no, thank you no thank you strange human um not working yeah i was like it truly was like they were like like you ever meet like one of those former child stars who's been like working from the time they were three and they're like where's my light okay i just need a little bit of eyebrow pencil and let's go you know those people who are just like they were like that but just the canine version yeah do you share gabe's love of horror films No, I mean, I like some horror movies, but not really.

What I do love is I really like wake-up pranks.

Do you guys know about wake-up pranks?

No.

Do you wake up someone in a horrible manner?

Yeah, it's like people waking up their friends in mean ways.

Oh, no.

And people get scared.

And I think it's very funny and very mean.

And there's one where they're like, this guy's asleep.

I guess they got like fast food.

They're in a van.

This guy's asleep.

He's got like a burger on his lap, but he fell asleep before he ate his burger.

And I think there's like a truck with one of those, it's like one of those trucks that pulls cars behind it.

So it looks like the car is facing.

Oh, yeah, like the vehicle.

You can mistake it it as an oncoming vehicle right right so this guy's asleep so everyone in the car decides to wake up prank him and what they do is they swerve and scream all at the same time and he wakes up and he sees this car in front of him and he thinks you know this is it and he screams and he just squeezes the hell out of his burger he just squeezes this burger so hard and then they show it in slow-mo of just like face contorting and him squeezing the burger it's so fun it's very mean and i don't think it's right but it is very funny funny.

And then I also like close call videos where it's like, I can't stand like fail videos where people get hurt.

I can't stand it.

But close call videos.

Oh, when someone almost falls, yes.

It's the best.

It's the best.

Like, I haven't seen the videos, but I will tell you, I have a memory I will never forget.

I was in the Dallas-Fort Worth airport and there was this long corridor that we were all walking down, right?

And there's a woman coming, kind of swimming upstream against all of us.

She's She's going to

running.

I'm talking a full sprint with like trying to juggle a carry-on, but a full sprint and she's in wedge flip-flops.

And she is running.

And we can see her from so far in this corridor and she's running and the front of her flip-flop bends forward under her foot and then she lurches forward and then she tries to overcompensate She lurches back and she did, she said,

she did it for probably, it felt like 10 minutes.

He was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

And we were all so invested.

It was like, I don't know, 80 strangers.

And we're like, is she going down?

What do we do?

And then she, right before she face planted, she pulled herself up.

Yeah.

And we were all like,

and then she ran past us.

I'll never forget it.

Oh, my God.

I have seen videos.

Have you seen the videos of someone who's like slipping on ice, but for like a very long time?

It's like that.

Yes.

Like, that's what it feels like to be a person is to be just like a prolonged ice slip that seems to never stop.

And when it turns out good, right?

I'm so relieved.

And it, but there's so many, and you can watch in the compilations.

It's like people like their kid almost like is riding a bike and almost runs into something and they swoop in and grab him.

Or it's like, it's just like humans evading disaster is like the best.

Have you seen the videos of people who they're scaring someone?

Yes, but they're doing it by pretending that they're scared of something themselves.

Yes.

And then the other person runs away.

Yes.

They're brilliant.

So, like, there's like a woman and she's like taking out the trash with her husband and she opens up the trash can and then she's like,

and then he

loses.

He hasn't even like seen anything.

And then

just like the Firefly responds.

But the psychology behind it to me is so interesting because it's like, it's like, I share fear with you.

Yeah.

We share that.

But the one person's just pretending.

And the other person.

I know.

It's really fascinating.

I kind of want to try it out.

You should try it.

It's a cheap prank.

All you have to do is act scared.

There's one more I have to say because these are now fascinating me.

You might like it.

So there's the other one where you're in a group with your family and you pick someone and you say, like, I learned we're going to do a magic trick.

I'm going to make you invisible.

And you put a sheet over them and then you like say some magic words and then you pull the sheet off and everyone in the room has agreed to pretend that the person is invisible.

Oh, that's amazing.

It's always the mom.

They always do it to the mom, right?

And then, so then they pull the sheet off and then everyone's like, no way.

Holy, oh my God.

And then the person's like, what?

Oh my God.

What?

What?

What?

You can't, I don't get it.

That's amazing.

Also, the fact that it's the mom, like, an invisible mom.

I feel like so many moms in family dynamics are just the invisible caretaker.

They're already invisible.

It's like that.

That SNL sketch at Christmas.

Everyone's saying, I got a piano.

And the mom goes, and I got a robe.

And that's all she got.

And it's like over and over.

But I got a car.

I got a robe.

Also, at the end, they're like, wait a second, what's this secret pile of presents?

And And the mom's like, oh, and they're like, it's presents for the dog.

And then the dog gets a robe as well.

I think I'm going to watch the one of particularly the one where they're scared, where they act scared.

Yes.

You see.

It's very fun.

It's, I cannot wait.

It's so interesting.

It's so interesting that people like share fear.

It's fascinating.

I heard that, I don't even know if this is true.

This could just be something like I am basically making up, but that like laughter, like the origins of laughter, is it was like a way that like monkeys could tell each other that a perceived danger was no longer a threat.

Like, so basically it's like, okay, we're a bunch of monkeys.

Like we think we see a tiger.

Everyone gets tense.

And then I realize, oh, it's not a tiger.

It's something that looked like a tiger, but it isn't a tiger.

Then we all laugh.

And it's a way of quickly dispersing the information that like what seemed to be threatening is in fact not a threat.

So it's like this rolling sound that like lets everyone know.

It's like a fire drill in reverse.

It makes so much sense.

Right.

And then also it makes so much sense why comedy is something we're drawn to watch and that like it soothes us.

It's a real.

I mean, like, I remember when I injured my back, when I broke my back, and I watched the Larry Sanders show.

Me and Creed and Jenna one night in her hotel room binged the Larry Sanders show.

And like that laughter, like it brings you relief.

Yeah.

Right.

And maybe it goes all the way back to that.

Just a bunch of monkeys.

Releasing some

no tiger.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's our whole show is just, I'm very scared of what Michael Scott is going to say or do right now.

Okay.

All right.

All right.

All right.

I think that's right.

It's like tension, cringe.

Yes.

Okay.

Set up tension punchline.

Like, yeah, I don't know if, again, I could, that could be total malarchy, but I mean, it tracks.

I've been really into,

there's a show about animals on Netflix, and we watch the one about dogs.

It's so good.

Yeah.

And dogs do this little sniffy, snorty thing when they're, you know, how they play fight?

And it's to let the other dog know that I'm not serious.

And they, so if you hear your dog, and now my little two Chihuahua rescues, when they play, I hear it.

They go,

really?

And it's like, it's like, I'm, I'm, I'm just having fun.

That must be so hard on dogs who like want to be aggressive but have allergies where they're like trying to like really like big dog and little dog and they're just like yeah like a pug like a pug can never be taken seriously when he's trying to like

be aggressive

i'm actually angry i really mean it, guys.

Like, no, you don't.

No, you don't.

You're being silly.

That's funny.

Do you get recognized as Gabe?

Sometimes, yeah.

It happens.

What is that like?

I had a really bad one recently because I saw it.

So I'm making the show now, this like stop motion show.

And in it, there's a like a lactation station, you know, that they have at the airport.

And we were getting designs for them.

And I was like, oh, I want something really simple.

And I was in an airport.

There was an empty lactation station.

And I wanted to send a picture to the production designer to be like, this is what we're going for.

This is perfect example.

Right.

So I started to take a picture of the lactation station as someone came up to me and was like, hey, man, you were Gabe on the office.

Now, it's not lost on me that Gabe is in many ways quite a creepy character.

And so this guy just saw me by myself in an airport photographing a lactation station like a true predator from hell.

I mean, like, that's an insane thing to do, right?

To take a picture.

Like, from, he has no context.

And if I say, this is for a show.

That sounds even worse.

It's like, it's for a show, really, buddy.

Like,

and so it was, that was a truly mortifying, where I'm like, I, he must think I'm like, that Gabe is like a toned down version of me based on

that experience.

But yeah, people, people sometimes will recognize me from the show.

So after the office, you did Silicon Valley.

You've done all these other things.

Do you still get approached more for being on the office or for other roles or is it pretty 50-50?

I'd say it's like probably 50-50 with the office than then everything else I've ever done.

Like, so it's like the single thing maybe more.

Well, I don't know.

Silicon Valley, it's, yeah, it's probably like around 50-50.

It depends.

It's like demographically specific.

Yeah.

You know?

And it's interesting, like, if it's younger people, it's probably the office.

If it's like really young people, I think it's so sweet to me that.

kids find it so comforting.

That's a kind of emotional wallpaper.

Like people have watched it a million times, they'll turn it on as a way of feeling like they're kind of among their friends or in a kind of soothing, warm, silly environment.

I think it's so sweet.

And so it's like nice when it's like some, you know, whatever 19-year-old who's immersed in the Scranton paper industry fictional world.

I think that's so sweet.

I like that.

Have you re-watched the show?

Some of it.

I hate watching anything I'm in, so not that stuff.

But I had already watched the show so much when I came on.

Like I would re-watch the show show a lot before I was on the show, but I haven't done like the wall-to-wall rewatch.

We hadn't either.

This is the first time for us.

I'd seen episodes here and there.

We've talked about that.

But this is really our first time to see some of these episodes in a long time since they aired.

Does it feel like...

Does watching the show feel like you're looking at a photo album of your friends and your life in a way?

Or does it feel like you can sort of suspend disbelief and get lost in the story of the show?

Like, are you able to invest in the fictional reality of the show when you're watching it?

I think so.

Because of the passage of time, it's both things.

So, I have a lot of nostalgic thoughts and feelings.

I get really sentimental when I'm watching it.

I remember parts of my life that were happening when we were making those episodes.

I miss people when I watch it.

But I can also, when I watch it, what's weird is

I have images of all the things you can't see in the episodes.

So, like, I can

feel Brian Whittle holding his boom above my desk in a scene when I'm watching the rewatch.

You know, I can like feel where, oh, I that Video Village was over in the conference room for this one and Kelly's shouting out some safety meeting.

So it's like all of the behind the camera stuff pops into my head as well.

But then at the same time, I have found myself getting invested in the characters.

Like I personally feel that Aaron is not the one for Andy.

Not at all.

I am getting angry.

It's being shoved down my throat that I'm being told that they're the perfect couple when I actually feel like Andy is thriving with his current girlfriend.

Jessica.

Jessica is great.

I like Jessica.

Yeah.

You know?

So I don't know.

So I do, I have like some fan reactions when I watch the show as well.

What about you, Ange?

Oh, I mean, I think you said that so well.

That's exactly how I feel.

It's both for me.

It's a photo album and I'm in the audience and I kind of switch back and forth.

I have really strong memories of episodes, you know, when things were happening in my life and I watch it with that layer.

Wow.

So it's not even just the environment of the set, but it's the environment of your life at that time.

Yeah, yeah.

That's fascinating.

It was what, nine years of our life and, you know, babies were born and family members passed away.

And it's a lot of life happens in nine years.

And I just watch that play out through this other filter of being a character.

It's kind of, it's really surreal.

That's trippy.

Yeah.

A friend of mine said to me, I was like talking about some, maybe New York or something.

And she goes, well, places aren't places as much as they're times.

Like when you think of a place, often you're thinking of a time.

And so it's not necessarily the geography of the place, but it's the sort of psychic place you were in in your life, right?

Like where what was happening or who you were at that time.

So it's so interesting that it's the show where you're being somebody different, like you're playing a different person, but also you were a different person in your life at that time, right?

Like the circumstances of your life were different, your relationships were different, everything was different.

Can I ask just like one more, I'm just

for you guys, if there's something like you guys could go back and tell yourselves like in that Our Town style, like, what would you, like, if you could go back to like season one and visit with you, like as your own like fairy godmother, ghost of Christmas future or whatever, like, what would you say?

Or maybe that's too hard a question.

Hmm.

I would say I I think there are a lot of ways that I know how to advocate for myself professionally now that I had to really learn on the go.

And I feel like in some cases, I even got like some bad advice.

You know, there were ways where, like, as you're, as you're kind of an up-and-coming actor, and maybe you're suddenly on this hit show, there are a lot of people that have ideas for you professionally.

And I was just happy being on the office.

I didn't need an and.

I didn't need to also have a product line or also be a movie star.

And yet

I felt the energy coming at me, telling me I needed to do all this more.

And I think in some ways,

you know, I would do the TV show and then I would spend my hiatus doing all the more that everyone was telling me that I wanted and that I had to do and that this is what you do next.

And the truth is, is I just wanted to spend my hiatus traveling and enjoying my life and being in love.

And sometimes I look back on that time and I think, wow, I was just too busy doing a bunch of things that I felt like were expected of me.

But my truth was, I just want to be on this TV show.

I love it.

I'm happy.

This is enough.

And it took me a really long time to get to a place where I didn't let other people's idea of what my life should be.

Like I figured out what my ambition is in life, but I spent a lot of years.

I don't know.

I mean, I don't, I don't necessarily regret any of those movies or any of those experiences or any of those things, but I think it's a life lesson coming to a place where you're like,

well, what's enough for me is okay.

Yes.

That's right.

Want or need things other people need.

What I need is enough and that's okay.

Yeah.

And I think it's even still shocking to people when I say, no, the podcast is enough.

I enjoy this.

I like concentrating on it.

I like this being my one thing.

I think maybe that's me.

Maybe I'm like a monogamous worker.

Like I have a job I like to do and that's the job I like to do and fully and I enjoy it.

And then I like to put it away.

Like I don't need a lot of ands.

I don't.

So that's a great.

I wish I could have like told myself to trust that more in me.

It's so noisy probably, when you, right?

Like, and if all of a sudden you're on the show and it's a success, and it's the cacophony of that and all of the

projection that it cooks up and everything.

I think

there's a lot of like fear-based sort of communication in that, too, which is like, well, listen, if you don't do this now, it's not going to be there later.

No one's going to want you later if you don't do this now.

Right.

Or you won't work later if you're not working now or any of it, you know?

And so you're like, oh my God, yeah, oh, yeah, I don't, I don't want this to go away so there it's very it can be kind of confusing what to do with that

and then of course i had spent 10 years not working at all right right so you're like yeah yeah i don't want i mean i don't want to go back to that i guess so i don't know yeah i think for me i would look back and just tell myself i'm gonna be just fine i think i was

just worried that I wasn't gonna be everything I was thought I should be and that I don't need to be anything other than just okay with myself.

That's what I think.

It's interesting how similar it's sort of like success on somebody else's terms is not success.

And success on your own terms doesn't have to look like somebody else's or like the sort of consensus aspiration, right?

It's like you're,

and to be like, I'm enough, basically, I'm enough.

Who I am is enough.

What I want is enough.

I think, and that was something in that blog post that made an impression on me when I read it too, which is, I think, I don't remember the exact phrasing, but it's basically like, don't postpone joy, don't make a certain kind of professional success a prerequisite for participating in your own life.

That's my recollection.

Yeah, well, that was a thing when you're a struggling actor, especially you're like, Well, I can't go to my friend's wedding because I might get a callback for a thing that I auditioned for, so I need to be here, or whatever it is.

It's like, well, I'm I don't want to have a boyfriend because I don't want to be distracted.

There's like all these limits and all these superstitions that you have as an artist because you are holding the art as the only thing, the only aspiration.

And so what I found was, oh my gosh, the material and characters that I saw at that wedding and the life experience I got from going to that thing is just going to feed my art.

So it's like, you can't do art if you're just doing art.

I think you have to have a whole life in order to feed it.

And an identity that's like where your like self-esteem is a little bit more like diversified.

In other words, if your whole worth originates from your ability to do this one thing and you're not doing that one thing, then you're kind of

so like to have like, if you're like, oh, yeah, I'm not just an actor, I'm someone's mom or I'm someone's

or not someone's, I am a mom, I am a bicycle enthusiast, I am a whatever, a volunteer, you know, then you, then it's not like, oh, when I'm auditioning for a part, I'm auditioning for my self-worth.

It's like, I'm just auditioning for the part.

It's like, yeah, which is hard enough or daunting enough.

That makes sense.

That's beautiful.

What about you, Zach?

What would you go back and tell yourself?

Get a basket at Walmart.

If you're going to be carrying that many humidifiers, I was basically like a walking close call video.

I think what would I tell myself?

It's something similar.

It's like, it's an interesting,

I don't know.

Let me think for a second.

I think

I think I probably would try to tell myself, and I probably wouldn't be able to hear it, but like, you don't need so so much fear to protect you.

You know what I mean?

Like, I think I used anxiety as a kind of, as a motivator and as a kind of protection, where I sort of felt like, well, if I'm buying enough humidifiers and running my lines enough times and freaking out enough, then surely I'm doing everything in my power to do a good job.

And if I don't do that, then I'm going to be kind of culpable if it doesn't go well.

I think if I could go back and say, like, When you're doing all of that, it has more to do with like, it's more neurotic than artistic.

You know what I mean?

It's not, that actually isn't serving the, it's not really, hopefully it doesn't hurt the character or the, the work, but it's, it's about something different.

That's more about like your childhood than it is about the job you're doing.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so I think if I could be like, don't mistake your neuroses for your artistic process.

Like develop an artistic process independent of

that as much as possible so that you're not just reenacting your own like cuckoo bird story again and again at work.

Like tell a new story at work.

Tell someone else's story at work.

You know what I mean?

Like I think you, I think you did hear it because I think just the fact that you recognize it, that even though, I mean, I took a minute.

It took a minute.

Took many minutes.

What was your second question?

Oh, yes.

Second question is like, did you have a moment where you felt that kind of like, because so often I think when you get the thing that you want, it doesn't feel the way you thought it'd feel, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Like the behind the music kind of like thing.

Was there a moment though where you had that kind of like shimmering magic feeling, feeling, like where you were like looked around and you were like,

oh my God, like that moment where you're just like the sort of the gift of it, where you felt like really wholly present in it and able to just enjoy it?

Like, do you remember the either the first or the most intense version of that for you guys?

The first one for me was when we were shooting the pilot on the first day and

our director, Ken Kwapas, said, I want to do 30 minutes of all of you all just working in this space.

Do your job, and we're just going to come around and silently

document you like a documenter.

We're going to set the tone of this show.

All right, go ahead.

And I will never forget that 30 minutes of,

first of all, there was silence because nobody really knew what to do.

And then I feel like it was Phyllis picked up her phone and like hit some buttons and started a fake phone call.

And then I started to hear buttons over the partition and accounting.

And then everybody just started being their character

and pretending like we worked at a paper company, like all together.

And I was like,

the theater nerd in me was delighted.

And I thought,

I'm a part of something very special and I don't know what's going to happen from here, but

this is pretty dang cool.

Wow.

The sound.

It sometimes looks like an orchestra tuning up right before.

Like, here we go.

We're about to play.

Like, wow, that's so exciting.

I really felt that.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, I loved that so much.

For me, there's so many moments that felt like that.

And they were almost always in the conference room because we were all in there together.

And we were all each other's background.

We were all in the moment.

And so many times I would have a minute where I was in the scene, but then I would step out of my body and I would just watch these amazing actors just fire off all these lines and everyone had their own character backstory.

And I just would be there in awe, being like, this is so cool.

This is so cool.

And I get to do this.

And there were times my character didn't even have lines, but I just couldn't believe I was in the moment.

There was a scene where Michael Scott is brainstorming animal hybrids

and

no one is saying anything.

And Steve had his scripted lines, but then he started to just, they just let the camera roll and he just kept improvising animal hybrids.

And we all just had to sit there and look at him where he was like, head of an owl, body of a walrus, like whatever it was he was saying.

And we were just all patiently looking at him.

And then one by one, people started to file out like they were over it.

And I just remember being like, this is one of, this is the coolest.

Like, this is the coolest.

And I can't believe I get to do it.

It's so sweet that in both your cases, it's sort of like, it's not the kind of grand slam scene for your character.

It's just the scene where you're able to kind of like behold the.

the majesty of this working situation, right?

Where you're like, it's about watching it and participating, but not in a way that foregrounds you.

It's just a,

I think like being a small part of a big thing is like the best feeling ever, right?

Like, like, feeling like you're part of a squad that like is like, that's such an exciting thing.

So it's interesting, both of you guys, it was kind of like that feeling of like, oh, I'm part of this when everyone starts improvising the filing out and Michael's still doing his animals,

right?

Or everyone's sort of slowly coming into the joining,

showing up for the first time in the fictional office in a way.

It was such a smart thing that Ken did by doing that exercise with us because we didn't start with a scene.

Like we didn't start with, okay, Steve Carell, our lead character, Michael Scott, is going to do a scene.

He made every single one of us equally important in the very first thing we shot.

Wow.

You know, nobody had any lines, but everyone was in character.

And you really felt how, okay, so whatever scene is going on, this is also always going on.

So now we're going to do a scene, but don't forget, you all are still working in this office and you always have to be.

It was really genius.

That's cool.

I didn't, I think I missed that.

It was the first, literally the first thing you shot.

The very first thing

ever.

Yeah.

First time the cameras rolled, right?

Yeah.

I know.

Just give everyone a chance to kind of, it's sort of what John did for me when I did that little talking head where it was like, okay, just like, I mean, that's different because I was like talking, but I just mean like giving a lot of space.

Yes.

Even though it was, even that's costly.

You're making a pilot.

Like time is money, everything, right?

Like, but just to be like, we got time, we got space, just exist.

and i also think because it was kin the very first time we were all in a room and we were all going to be these characters no one yelled action he just said go ahead oh that's because that's kin right so he just said go ahead so it was just like this very slow comfortable easing into this world Did you ever see that John Cazelle documentary?

I knew it was you.

Do you know John Kazelle, the guy who played Fredo?

He was like in five movies and they were all like the best.

He was like the deer hunter, Godfather Wanted Two, The Conversation.

He died when he was a young man, but they made a documentary about him because he did these like incredible movies, and that's it.

He just did these and then theater and stuff.

But Al Pacino, oh, he was in Dog Day Afternoon.

Al Pacino told these stories where they'd be like shooting on film and they would start rolling, and Al Pacino would be all kind of coiled up and do his line.

And he said that this guy, the giant salad, just be like, What'd you do this weekend, Al?

And he'd hear the film moving through the camera, and he'd be like,

I don't know, I like made dinner with my girlfriend on Saturday.

Oh, yeah, what'd you make?

Oh, we made a rigatoni, and you know, oh, yeah, what'd you do after that?

And like, just talk until like Al Pacino settled down.

And then he'd just say, like, the first line of the scene, where like he would just sort of get them in a place of like, oh, we're just here, we're just here with each other, and then slowly sort of introduce the dialogue, which is like such a ballsy, crazy thing to do.

Yeah.

So like 35 millimeter film is running through a camera.

But I just was like, it sounds like in in a version of that, right?

Where it's just like, go ahead.

Yeah, go ahead.

We're not.

Yeah.

It's not ready sex.

Hit your adding machine a few times.

Yeah, that's nice.

Yeah.

I feel bad.

I feel like I've now

extended yourself.

I love this so much.

It's just made my heart so happy.

Me too.

Yeah.

And I really, yeah, I can't say it enough.

Like,

it's a real

talent I don't have, which is like to maintain, like.

You know, did you ever see those like Richard Link later, the like before sunset, before sunrise?

I love those movies.

But that's sometimes what like shooting feels like to me, where it's like this very discreet, specific experience of like real, like big emotion, intimacy, connection.

And then you're like, off to your lives.

And you don't, to me, it often feels that way, where it's like, it's like this amazing one-night stand or something, except it happened to be a two-year stand.

But,

and so I feel like I've kind of lost touch with you know you guys and this larger squad, but I can just never say enough how much it meant that everyone was so kind.

I just, in a way, that you guys stood to gain nothing from that.

I had nothing to offer you.

And in a way, I could have been

either an ear, like I could have been a problem in that it's like another mouth to feed on this big show.

Like, but that was not how I was received.

And that really set the tone for the rest of my working life thus far.

And it's so, I just, yeah, I don't know.

I just wanted, I felt when, when, when you guys kindly invited me on, I was like, I want to say to people, I want people who like the show to know how kind the people who worked on the show were and are, you know, you know, I think we were happy, Zach.

Like we were a happy cast.

We were a happy crew.

And we just knew like there's enough to go around for everyone.

There just is.

There always is.

In good comedy and good art.

You do not need to be stingy, you know?

It's a collective.

It is.

And it was an abundant universe.

And I think we all looked at it that way.

We always felt like we won the lottery.

We always talk about that.

And I think everyone felt that way.

So why not share it?

A lot of lottery winners hire like private security and like a bunch of dobermens and shit.

You guys are like the good lottery winners.

Zach, thank you so much for coming on.

Thank you for having me.

It was really fun.

What are you doing now that we can tell people about?

I'm making this stop motion show that that actually, Greg Daniels is like, he's it's his company, but it's one of the producers.

On it's a stop-motion show about an NPR host.

Uh, so I'm doing that right now, and that'll come out.

Are you the voice of the NPR host?

Yeah, amazing.

You'll have to let us know when it comes out and where people can find it, and we're going to share it.

Oh, that's so sweet.

Yeah, but anyway, thanks for having me on.

It was really a treat.

It's so nice to reconnect with you guys.

Love you, Zach.

Yeah, you too.

Thank you for listening to Office Ladies.

Office Ladies is produced by Earwolf, Jenna Fisher, and Angela Kinsey.

Our senior producer is Cassie Jerkins.

Our in-studio engineer is Sam Kiefer.

Our editing and mixing engineer is Jordan Duffy.

And our associate producer is Ainsley Bubbico.

Our theme song is Rubber Tree by Creed Bratton.

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