Making Trump Pay with E. Jean Carroll and Roberta Kaplan

Hi, Eugene.

I don't think we've met.

Oh, you two are going to like each other.

I can't wait to hear the Adam Becker say, I plan on being very scared after I hear your podcast.

It's on!

Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

This is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher.

My guests today are writer, former advice columnist, and renowned Donald Trump ass kicker E.

Jean Carroll and her attorney, the formidable Robbie Kaplan.

They are here to talk about Carroll's new memoir, Not My Type, One Woman vs.

a President.

As you may remember, Not My Type is what Donald Trump said about Eugene Carroll after she accused him of sexually assaulting her in a dressing room at the New York City department store, Bergdorf-Goodman, in 1996.

At the time, she was a well-known advice columnist for L magazine with her own TV show, Ask E.

Gene, and had written a couple of books, including a biography of Hunter S.

Thompson.

She was something of a gonzo journalist herself.

Carol told two friends, but otherwise she didn't talk about what happened in that dressing room until 2019.

Then she hooked up with legendary attorney Kaplan, a legal powerhouse who defended U.S.

v.

Windsor, the Supreme Court case that overturned the Defense of Marriage Act, and won a $26 million verdict against the violent neo-Nazis from the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville in 2017.

Together, they took on Trump, and in 2023 a jury found him liable for having sexually abused Carol and for defaming her.

To be clear, Not My Type was not even close to the worst thing he'd said.

The jurors awarded her $5 million.

And then Trump kept joking about it and calling her names and she got death threats from his acolytes.

So she sued him again and won again.

In 2024, a different jury awarded her $83.3 million in damages.

I want to talk to Carol and Kaplan about the trials and tribulations in Carol's memoir.

I really thought it was a really interesting book.

She's very honest about herself and her mistakes, and at the same time, she's gone through a harrowing process that has resulted in victory.

And she's surprisingly, I guess, I don't know, funny, entertaining about what's happened.

I also want to hear about how they've been standing up to Trump's appeals and what their plans are if the cases go to the Supreme Court.

Yes, folks, this could go to the Supreme Court.

Our expert question today comes from writer Lisa Birnback, author of the 1980s classic, The Official Preppy Handbook.

Support for this show is brought to you by CVS CareMark.

Every CVS CareMark customer has a story, and CVS CareMark makes affordable medication the center of every member's story.

Through effective cost management, they find the lowest possible drug costs to get members more of what they need, because lower prices for medication means fewer worries.

Interested in more affordable care for your members?

Go to cmk.co slash stories to hear the real stories behind how CVS CareMark provides the affordability, support, and access your members need.

Thumbtack presents Project Paralysis.

I was cornered.

Sweat gathered above my furrowed brow and my mind was racing.

I wondered who would be left standing when the droplets fell, me or the clawed sink.

Drain cleaner and pipe snake clenched in my weary fist, I stepped toward the sink and then, wait, why am I stressing?

I have thumbtack.

I can easily search for a top-rated plumber in the Bay Area, read reviews, and compare prices, all on the app.

Thumbtack knows homes.

Download the app today.

Support for this show comes from Robinhood.

Wouldn't it be great to manage your portfolio on one platform?

With Robinhood, not only can you trade individual stocks and ETFs, you can also seamlessly buy and sell crypto at low costs.

Trade all in one place.

Get started now on Robinhood.

Trading crypto involves significant risk.

Crypto trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Crypto LLC.

Robinhood Crypto is licensed to engage in virtual currency business activity by the New York State Department of Financial Services.

Crypto held through Robinhood Crypto is not FDIC insured or CIPIC protected.

Investing involves risk, including loss of principal.

Securities trading is offered through an account with Robinhood Financial LLC, member SIPIC, a registered broker dealer.

So, Eugene and Robbie, thanks for coming on on for a conflab.

Eugene, you use that word conflab a lot and ask Eugene, you call your readers conflabians.

Yes.

What makes for a good conflab?

And can we have one about President Donald Trump, the hideous man, as you've called him?

Well, this today is a marvelous conflab because it contains wit.

It contains women of various opinions.

It contains people who are smart and want everybody to get off their lazy asses and do something about what's happening right now in the country.

Why conflab?

What does conflab come from?

I don't know.

Confab, of course, is the correct word.

Sure.

Conflab because because if people are going to fat shame, we are going to control that word and we're going to turn it into something wonderful.

Conflab.

Boom.

Okay.

All right.

Robbie, are you ready for a flab?

I'm totally.

She's been my client now for years, so I'm completely ready for it.

All right.

So let's start.

Let's start, talk about your new memoir, not my type.

Very funny, surprisingly funny.

I didn't think I'd laugh so much about something so terrible.

It's about you preparing for and then sitting through two trials against Donald Trump, one for sexual abuse and defamation, the other for defamations that have led you to being threatened, harassed, etc.

Pretty heavy stuff.

But you've described it as high comedy.

And again, the book is funny.

I think it's because of you.

You've been a funny writer.

I've followed you for many years.

So talk a little bit about

laugh even when you want to cry, rah-rah, cheerleader writing style.

Where do you think that comes from?

And why did you do it this way?

Kara, I had court transcripts, court transcripts.

So when people read the book and they say, that's so absurd, that's so funny.

What it was, it's real.

It's what actually happened.

You've been inside of many courtrooms.

You understand there is no normal conversation going on.

It's all heightened.

conversation and dramatic and the presentations people are trying to persuade one another.

I was surrounded with a group of characters straight out of Jonathan Swift.

I mean, it was,

as a journalist, at the end of every

night trial, I'd go back and I would put notes into my phone.

I was flabbergasted.

Thank God I got those details down.

And it just turned out to be

funny.

Except you're the main character, you know, and usually when you're a journalist, you're watching other people.

You're not the person in the scene itself.

No,

this time it was all about a tragic attack.

And all the characters that I found so funny were surrounding to either argue that this attack happened

or this attack is a totally made-up thing because I'm a gold digger.

I'm a slut.

I'm out to help the Democrats get elected.

I'm a dangerous woman.

And Robbie's role

was to convince the jury I was none of those things.

So it was an interesting situation.

And watching Robbie take hold of the lectern to address the jury was like watching Alexander the Great land in Persia.

Wow.

Have you ever heard Robbie argue in court?

Brilliant.

Fact after fact after fact after fact.

She is a sensation

and just this tiny woman.

And she drove Donald Trump

so

insane, Kara, that in her final argument in the trial when Trump was sitting listening, final argument,

he stood up.

turning vermilion with like steam coming out his nostrils and his ears like his hair had swelled to twice its size because of the fire in his brain and walked out of court and it was so sick because that's what a guilty man does a guilty man stands up and runs out of court right if you haven't done it right sure you sit there and you say this is ridiculous

if you're guilty you just turn tail and of course we won the minute he stood up and walked out right so robbie we talked about this when you came on in 2024 how did you look at it because there is a comic element to this tragedy, obviously.

And then there's gallows humor.

When you're in court like that, the ridiculous of it is so apparent, right?

And at the same time, it's dead serious.

Talk a little bit about how you handled that, Robbie.

So, you know, that is true in almost every case.

It obviously was much more dramatically true here.

And in a lot of ways, a case or certainly a trial is like a play.

You see in all this, in a lot of the litigation versus the Trump administration right now, everyone knows, including the judge and the lawyers, what's really going on.

But

because of these time-worn and frankly effective rules of how to present evidence in court and how to make arguments and decorum and all those things,

there's always two levels going on.

And it's very important.

I think E.

Gene and I make a pretty good mutton Jeff that way, or Abbott and Costello, whoever you want to say, because EGE, you know, my strategy with my teammates was, you guys, we just have to let Eugene be Eugene.

We're not turning Eugene into a yes, no witness.

That's not who she is.

She won't be believable if she tries to do that.

And she is who she is.

And I think the jury clearly, certainly the judge, and I think also the jury was charmed, as 99.9% of the population.

are when they meet Eugene.

So that was Eugene.

And then I was there kind of being the straight guy, for lack of a better term, and kind of just making the arguments as simply as I could and applying legal principles.

And you have this guy getting up like a, like a teenager, really.

I mean, my son, who's 19, is more mature than that, getting up and storming out.

And when that happened, I remember thinking to myself, okay, you just lost another $10 million.

That was my thought process as I was continuing to give my closing argument.

Explain as a lawyer.

It was so contemptuous.

of the court and the judge's authority and so disrespectful to me that the jury, which had already spent days listening to the horrendous threats Eugene receives almost every day, which I had categorized by type of violence.

So I think we started with rape, is that right, E?

And then we went to strangling, and then we went to shooting, and then we went to disemboweling.

I mean, literally, there were so many in each category, it was the best way to organize it.

I'll give you another example.

When we were in the jury selection process,

Judge Kaplan asked everyone in the room, all the potential jurors, I guess there were probably 100 of them in the room that day.

And he said, if anyone believes that the election of 2020 was rigged, please raise your hand.

No one, none of the 100 potential jurors raised their hand, but Donald Trump did.

He like sat there in the middle like that.

So it was

incredible.

The irony and the sense of comedy in this particular case was very, very strong.

So E.G., I want to play you this section of your book where you describe how you started pitching stories to magazines when you were 12 and didn't get your first story accepted until you were 37.

Here it is.

Can you imagine the relentless, insane, glorious, hot, blistering, beat yourself up, plow-ahead, never say die enthusiasm that drives a woman to go on and on and on through a blizzard, a blunt editor's numbing nose for 25

years?

It's really funny.

I had the same thing.

I actually saved the letters of all the rejections I got from the newspapers.

And at one point, I did, you know, they were always on that onion skin paper because I'm that old.

And one editor came up to me.

He said, You're the kind of people we should have hired when you were, you know, young.

You're the kind of person.

I go, I have an email from, I mean, not an email.

I have a letter from you.

And I pulled it out.

Like, here you go.

You rejected me and quite rudely.

I love it.

But that's fine.

And he's like, I'm an idiot.

And I go, you're an idiot.

But that's okay.

But you say that it's a neverstop attitude that leads you to say yes to shopping with Donald Trump and Bergdorf Goodman in 1996, despite a number of bad experiences with hideous men throughout your life.

Looking back, talk about that.

Were you naive or did you think a calculated risk that went sour?

I mean, you've done a lot of crazy things.

You took drugs with Hunter S.

Thompson, for example.

And that, to me, is like a pretty risky thing to do.

But talk maybe less risky than this.

Talk a little bit about that attitude that you had then and maybe even now.

Well,

Kara, as you know, the great moment in your life is getting on that airplane, snapping that seatbelt across your lap, flying off to go do a story about somebody you've never met in a place you've never been.

Yep.

That is exciting.

You're after the story, after the story.

There was no way in hell.

I was not going to go shopping with Donald Trump when he said, hey, you're that advice lady.

Come help me buy a gift.

I mean, I just thought I died and went to heaven this is what i this is my purpose in life to help people you know to advise them and donald trump at the time was not like the donald trump of today he was you know the man about town yes he was a hustler yes but it looked like a lark to me also it reminded me of a sketch i had written on saturday night live there was no way in hell and also we were having i was flirting my brains out with him correct?

He was being very funny.

It was light.

It was funny.

It was joshing.

It was witty.

And then it just turned

dark.

Laura Meller at Slate said,

this is exactly what Donald Trump did to the country.

We all laughed at him.

We all said he was a clown.

We all said he was absolutely an empty suit and laughed our asses off.

And then, boom,

it turned dark.

It's interesting.

So I'm not the only one, you know?

No, no, no.

A lot of, I think there's not a woman who hasn't had that experience with a person, right?

Everybody has a version of that somewhere.

And it's always a, people don't realize how much of a surprise it is, actually.

Even I have been surprised, like, and you don't see it coming, right?

Kind of thing in a lot of ways, which is no.

So, Robbie, you came on on the show in February 2024, shortly after you won the second defamation trial, and the jury awarded Eugene $83.3 million in damages.

You said that you wanted to let Eugene be yourself, but you had to make sure the jury didn't believe Trump when he said that she was not his type.

Talk about how your team prepared Eugene for the trial, including hair and outfits, because you, you know, and Eugene, you said you needed to seem fuckable, right?

I mean, that's what you yourself said.

Got to be fuckable or the jury will not believe me because Robbie ran a mock trial beforehand and all the jurors agreed that we were yes two people could be in a bergdorf dressing room yes two people could be in the dressing room something sexual had happened and yes Donald Trump and Eugene Carroll were the two people in the dressing room but Eugene Carroll was too much of a dissicated crone

to believe anything but that I

was begging him for it.

So Robbie has a plan.

Okay, Robbie, let's hear about that.

So I think we did two things in Prop, one at kind of a surface level and one more serious.

At the surface level, you're hearing how Eugene speaks.

She signs a lot of her emails, ravishing regards.

It was very important to me while I didn't want to cage her in any way.

I wanted Eugene to be able to be Eugene.

I didn't want her.

I think the rule I said is no words greater than three syllables.

Right.

Okay.

I was worried that she would speak in a language that the jury, some of the jury might understand, but some might not, and that would be off-putting to the jurors.

And that just took, frankly, just a lot of prep sessions where we would go through it with her over and over again.

And by the end, she was actually phenomenal at it.

And I knew in cross, she would be great because when Joe Tekapina or then Alina Haba crossed her, that's when she was really in her element.

And it's often easier to answer questions with a hostile questionnaire than it is to kind of tell your story, especially this kind of story on direct.

The more fundamental issue,

which also came out of the mock jury exercises, was that Eugene, as you can again tell,

has a very hard time, understandably so, given her history and her background, of admitting any weakness.

And so she had a very hard time

even saying

how what Donald Trump had done to her had irreparably damaged her life.

And just so there's no mystery about that, Eugene was never able to date again after they happened.

And there are psychological reasons that explain that.

But she had a very hard time coming to terms with that.

And so on that, we did a couple of things.

One, probably the smartest thing we did is we hired this phenomenal expert witness, psychologist out of California, who was one of the people who developed trauma theory back when they were using it with Vietnam veterans and really knows this area really well and she spent how many hours with you 26 hours locked in a room i'd never been to a therapist can you imagine the hideous i can't i've never been to one myself but go ahead kara i trust me don't do it really i won't don't worry not happening well i learned after the end of 26 hours my stomach was killing me because i learned that i had given up everything erotic and romantic in my life just because of this attack.

She put everything together for me and it made me sick to my stomach.

It made me sick.

So that you did that in order to.

What?

Because

during the jury exercises, particularly the women jurors

really did not like when Eugene said or suggested in any way that she was not a victim.

Right.

Not only did they not like it, they hated it.

And the reason is, is because I assume some of them had prior incidents themselves, and certainly all of them knew other women who'd experienced this.

So it was very important that E.

Jean not only say it, but say it in a way that was believable.

And in order to do that, she had to believe it.

So a lot of shrink time with a phenomenal, phenomenal psychologist, Leslie Lewowitz, got us that.

Then as we were preparing for the second trial, remember the first trial, Donald Trump didn't show up.

The second trial, we all believed he would show up.

And we knew that it would be the first time that E would see him

since 1996, since the spring of 1996 when this happened.

And as we were doing, kind of prepping the outline and going through the questioning, it was about two days before, it was the weekend, as I recall E,

Eugene lost the ability to speak, which again, for Eugene, is quite dramatic because she's phenomenal at speaking.

And she literally couldn't answer the question.

She had a hard time coming up with words and for me sentences.

So

I had already suggested that maybe the psychologist should be there for the second trial.

Eugene thoroughly rejected that suggestion on my part.

But when we had the session where she was having a really hard time speaking, I said, look, I really think you need to talk to the psychologist again.

And she did.

And she came up, they came up with a strategy for how she would confront Donald Trump when she saw him.

The issue of how to be a victim is very hard for women, right?

Because there's downsides to both parts.

If you're too strong, it's a problem.

If you're too weak, it's a problem, correct?

Exactly.

And here's this woman who lived her life 25 years, submitting stories, goes to live, believe it or not, not, with Hunter S.

Thompson and Aspen.

She was fearless.

And so she had a very hard time.

I probably would too, of acknowledging the really fundamental damage that this incident had done to her.

Also, I was worried that with the women on the jury,

I didn't know what they'd been through.

And, you know, just complain that some man jammed his fingers in you may be nothing compared to the trauma they had.

So it was, I never want to say I'm feeling bad because I don't want anybody else to

feel bad when they hear that I'm feeling bad.

It was hard.

It's very Indiana.

It's very bid Western Indiana.

The book is a pastiche of memories, stories from your past, court records.

And mixed in are side notes with descriptions and inner monologue.

Now, some of them do pack an emotional punch, like in the middle of the transcript of your cross-examination by Trump's attorney, Joe Takopina, who's grilling you about why you didn't scream during the attack, you write, it's a surreal feeling being beat up by a man who is asking me to describe being beat up and assaulted by a man he is beating me up to defend.

I think it's the fear many abuse survivors have about going to court.

Talk about that moment in court.

Well, there's a perfect victim, Kara.

Perfect victim never is silent.

Always screams, always goes to the police, always reports to the police, no matter if the guy attacks her after she goes to the police, no matter if he tears apart her reputation, perfect victim always goes to the police.

And here's the thing, perfect victim just goes back to her cave and covers herself with a dishcloth.

Never smiles again, never goes to a party, never laughs, never does anything.

But mainly she screams.

And Joe Takapina, straight out of the 16th century, could not believe that I

didn't scream.

What I had done was I had laughed.

And boy, did he make a big deal deal out of that.

Just, I mean, Robbie had arguments against it.

She laughed.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, she laughed.

Of course I laughed because, of course, in an erotic situation, what you do is you laugh at a man to, you know, it sort of calms things down.

But being questioned about it, it just

pissed me off because he was trying to knock me down, just trying to knock me down.

So, man.

Which is his job, to be fair.

This is his job to do so.

No,

he's an excellent, excellent defense attorney.

Let me tell you, Joe Takapita is one of the best.

But

the thing where I did break down on the stand was our own great attorney, Mark Ferrara, asked me

this question.

Are you sorry that you've gone to trial, Eugene?

And that did it.

Hot, blazing tears behind my eyes.

That's when he cried.

It was why.

Because I just hated Donald Trump so much, and they just came gushing down my face.

We'll be back in a minute.

Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start?

Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to.

Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin, or what that clunking sound from your dryer is?

With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro.

You just have to hire one.

You can hire top-rated pros, see price estimates, and read reviews all on the app.

Download today.

Fox Creative.

This is advertiser content brought to you by CVS CareMark.

The following are real CVS CareMark customer stories read to you by voice actors.

All of my productivity comes from being healthy.

I needed a new glucose monitor right away.

There's eight of us, six kids in our family.

We have well over 50 prescriptions.

Behind every single prescription is a story.

These might be stories of struggle, of not being able to manage, access, or afford the medications you need.

CVS CareMark is here to rewrite these stories, to transform them into ones of support, care, and dignity.

Like Rodney's story.

He received personal support from a CVS CareMark customer care rep when his glucose monitor needed to be replaced right away.

When I knew that the representative was listening, I felt at ease, like a burden was being lifted.

It's an exhilarating feeling knowing they really care.

Or like Tricia, who was struggling to manage over 50 medications for her family of eight, CVS Caremark helped to make those medications affordable and accessible.

With a big family like mine and with all the conditions, it's been extremely affordable for us.

I can't say enough good things about CVS CareMark.

CVS CareMark makes getting people the medication they need part of every story because every member deserves their healthier ever after.

I would never want to switch anywhere else.

Interested in more affordable care for your members?

Go to cmk.co/slash stories to learn how we help you provide the support and access your members need.

Labor Day Day savings are happening right now at the Home Depot.

So what are you working on?

Prep for fall with our wide selection of cordless power tools that make it easy to clear your lawn starting at $79.

And once the leaves are clear, keep your yard looking fresh with colorful mums that bloom all season long.

Shop Labor Day savings now through September 3rd only at the Home Depot.

See Select Stores for details.

There are three chapters in the book about evidence you did not or could not introduce, including evidence related to Jeffrey Epstein, who obviously has been in the news a lot recently.

Robbie, explain why you didn't want to introduce it as evidence.

And what do you both think about Trump and A.G.

Pam Bondi saying there's no Epstein list?

Let's start with you, Robbie, and then Eugene.

I mean, the main reason is I don't think Judge Kaplan would ever have let it in.

And we need, you know, one of the most important things when your court is having credibility with the court and not making arguments that he's going to be disdainful of.

So I just thought under the rules of evidence that there's no way he would let that in.

And I didn't even try.

There was other stuff that I did try that he didn't let in.

For example, Trump wrote a book in one of his books he wrote.

He suggested going to Bergdorf Goodman to buy gifts.

And he had denied that he ever went to Berdorf Goodman.

And the judge wouldn't even let that in.

And the argument was, well,

Tekapina said, well, he didn't write it.

And we were like, what do you mean?

The copyright's copyright's in his name.

Like, what do you mean he didn't write it?

But I think Judge Kaplan was thinking at that point, you know, we had what we had, and he wasn't going to add anything into the case.

Carol, Robbie's not telling you something.

Oh, okay.

All right.

When the Epstein stuff came in, it was in Michael Wolfe's book, and he had a tape recording.

He had hundreds of hours of Jeffrey Epstein on tape.

Robbie's so calm here at the time.

She was like,

Jeffrey Epstein, in 1996, shortly after the attack in Burgdorth, running into Trump on the street and Trump, quote, regaling him with the, quote, torrid details of what happened in Bergdorf.

Robbie was dying to get this into court.

All right, talk about that, Robbie.

Yeah.

I mean, it would have been great evidence, but under the rules of evidence, I couldn't get it in.

It was hearsay.

He was dead.

Yeah.

It wasn't necessarily all that reliable.

I mean, there are all these strict rules of evidence, which is why we won the case in the first place, because these rules generally are good, but they limit the kinds of evidence that may not be as reliable as other kinds of evidence.

And I just knew I had no chance in hell with Judge Kaplan on that.

So first you, Robbie, what did you think of what's happening right now?

And then Eugene?

Look, you know,

what's always been most astounding to me about Jeffrey Epstein is that it happened in plain sight, right?

He wasn't hiding in some upstate cabin somewhere where he was doing this.

He was in a townhouse

in the upper east side of Manhattan that people would come to all the time.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I don't know whether you call it a client list.

I doubt he even called it a client list.

But there's no question that there were a number of other, he wasn't the only person

engaged in the kind of misconduct he was engaged in with women.

That wouldn't have made any sense.

I mean, I just would be shocked if that were true.

And so, look, I don't know what's going on and I don't know who's on the list and who's not on the list.

But it it was obviously a grave miscalculation on the president's part to kind of trumpet this all these years and then become president and eat discourses, right?

Absolutely.

He trained them up in QAnon, and now he's saying, Please don't behave the way I've trained you, which is interesting.

Um, what about you, Eugene?

How do you look at it?

Well, I interviewed uh Jill Harth in Vanity Fair, and she was running a beauty contest back in the day in the 90s, actually.

And

she was in

Mar-a-Lago, and she's got all her beauty contestants there.

She brings Jeffrey Epstein.

He brings, Trump brings his best friend, Jeffrey Epstein, with him to meet all these beauty contestants.

They lived, I don't know why people don't talk about this, back in the day, very close to each other in Florida, very close.

A jill sort of led me to believe walking distance.

I don't know if that makes sense, but maybe to a New Yorker it does.

But there's Trump running over with Jeffrey Epstein to meet the girls.

Ignorant,

had not been around money or even out of their home states at the time.

I mean, total prey.

Horrible.

You know, horrible.

One of Epstein's selling points, as I understand it to people, was that he was really good at saving people on taxes.

Yes, that was one of them.

Right.

Saving taxes.

So I can't imagine that that wasn't attractive.

Yeah, it's probably more attractive.

That's probably the most attractive thing.

It's interesting.

At the time, I think a lot of people did know what was happening, especially after the Florida settlement.

I had been invited to his house for one of those dinners.

You remember he invited well-known people, and he was particularly fixated on tech.

And the person, his representative, said, oh, Jeffrey would really like you to come.

And I said, I don't dine with pedophiles.

Sorry.

Bravo.

Yeah.

And they were like,

well, it was, you know, I was like, I just know it's not happening in this life or the next.

Love it.

Which was interesting because a lot of people did.

A lot of journalists did, that's for sure.

So let's go back to the trials really quickly.

quickly.

The juries came back quickly.

How surprising was that, both of you, talk about the moment the $83 million verdict came down.

Robbie, you first on why it came back so quickly, and then Eugene.

So both of them came back very quickly.

It was under three hours for both, which is shockingly fast for almost any case.

The first case, we had a much tougher jury.

We had this guy who's a Tim Poole, who got all his news from Tim Poole's podcast that we couldn't get off the jury.

And it had to be unanimous.

So he had to vote with us.

So I thought that was going to take longer.

And the second jury was more, there were people from New York City.

So I thought it was a more sympathetic jury.

But I was actually, I mean, two things.

One,

I thought they were going to issue punitive damages that were going to be hefty.

You know, I wasn't expecting, honestly, the number as high as we got, which is really only 3.6 times the compensatory.

So it's well within constitutional limits.

But I was surprised by that.

And I think the reason for it was Donald Trump's own behavior in the courtroom.

It's a really bad idea if you're fighting a pen of damages claim to act like you're contemptuous of the court in the courtroom.

And they saw that every day.

He would come in in the morning, he'd sit through court, make lots of nasty comments, make, you know, huffing and puffing and derisive comments.

And then he'd leave.

And he'd go to, I think it was Trump Tower, somewhere downtown, and they would do a press conference that he would videotape in which he continued to defame Eugene.

So like, imagine what a case this was for us.

I got to say to the jury, not only do you need to give enough money to make him stop, he continued to do it through this very trial.

And we showed all the videos.

So, so, in retrospect, that all makes sense.

Eugene, what about you?

Were you surprised by the speed and also the money?

When the jury goes out,

we had a Manhattan jury for the second trial.

We had an upstate jury for the first trial that came from Trump counties.

That we won the first trial was a real achievement because that was not Manhattan.

Those were upstate red counties.

This jury,

she stands up.

The judge says, Do you have a verdict?

The forewoman stands up.

She says, We do, Your Honor.

She says, Hand it to Andy the clerk.

Andy the clerk opens it, starts to read it, cocks his head, frowns, goes like this, hands it up to the judge.

Judge Kaplan looks at it, his eyebrows rise and he says madam forewoman

what does the m

mean

yeah

and just

robbie was on this side of me we were holding hands sean g crowley was on this side we floated up to the ceiling yeah

because i'm going to be giving away

that 83.3 million to everything

donald trump hates once you get it we'll get to that in a second i I think you'll see that Bobby's going to, we're going to get it.

No, we're going to get it.

Totally.

So first, before that, every week we get to a question from an outside expert.

Here's yours.

Hi, it's Lisa Birnbach of the Official Preppy Handbook and True Prep.

I've met Donald Trump, and I have this question for you all.

Why do American women vote for him?

Why do they support him?

He is a bully.

He has only contempt for women.

He claims he can grab us whenever he wants, wherever he wants.

And yet women, not all women, find him charming, amusing.

He tells it like it is.

But yet he votes against all of our interests and has taken away so many of our rights.

So what's in it?

For transparency, Lisa is one of two people Eugene told about the assault right after it happened in 1996.

She testified on Eugene's behalf.

But to her point, were you surprised that Trump won the 2024 election?

First, you, Eugene, and then you, Robbie?

Yes, I was surprised and not surprised.

It's just that they don't know it.

They don't.

We live in a Berlin wall.

On this side is all the liberals.

On this side, it's the conservatives.

They didn't hear the news.

They just didn't hear it.

Their Facebook feeds don't give them that kind of information.

After he was voted president, the news that he lost in the

United States Court of Appeals to Robbie on his trying to overturn the verdict, that was the first time many people in this country heard he had been found liable for sexual abuse, only when Robbie beat him in the appeals court.

So it's not really women's fault.

They just didn't know it in the number of people that we needed to know it.

What about you, Robbie?

I agree.

And I think it's due to a lot of other factors that are somewhat unrelated.

One, and I know you focus on this, Kara, the rise of disinformation and misinformation on the internet.

I mean, people were probably getting access to Alina Haba's videos, but not to any like real news about what had happened at the case.

And two, there's obviously this incredible resentment, obviously, in our society.

of certain very large segments now and that Donald Trump appeals to that because Donald Trump himself is very resentful and he can channel that in ways that so the grievance industrial complex yeah that in ways that no one has been able to do one of the things that's interesting is you know he is funny like you just said at the beginning i watched all the apprentices i was like he's very good at social media and to pretend he's not is kind of silly on our part and and i was saying this is not an excuse this is an explanation i'm explaining and I have to tell you the one thing that really it didn't surprise me but much on the left was like how dare you say that I'm like it's factual the man is really really good at social media.

And if you pretend he's not, you know, he's loathsome.

He's not good.

I'm like, no, he's good.

He's also loathsome.

It's very hard for people to do that.

And so I do think a lot of people miss that, especially with women, because he has an appeal that is hard to

understand and yet is obvious, to me, at least.

You were trying to talk like him that day at Berndorf until you got to the dressing room and he pounced, right?

No, he said, look, you know, I'm going to say something that's going to cause fire to be lit across the Kara Swisher universe.

But to me, he's one of the great geniuses of the 21st century.

Not only is the country falling, people, people all around the globe.

He has set off a firestorm around the globe in this conservative backlash.

Women in this country, half of us have been put 50 back, 50 years behind.

This is Donald Trump.

He is smarter than any of us give him credit for.

And we got to do what Karen just said.

We got to realize he is a genius at social media.

And he only thinks of himself, and

therefore everybody around him only thinks of him.

Right, right, right.

And that is what we're dealing with.

And all the great demagogues have been good, from Hitler to Huey Long to everybody else.

And whether you like them or not doesn't seem to

matter.

It does matter, but it doesn't matter.

So it's not over yet.

Obviously, Trump appealed both cases, but you've had new wins in recent weeks, including the court blocking Trump's attempts to get the Department of Justice involved in the case because he's now president.

For the third time, so you understand.

They're trying to wear you down, presumably.

But can you explain to where things stand in the appeals process?

Where is the money now?

And

the $5 million sexual abuse and defamation verdict, the only option Trump has left is to take the case to the Supreme Court in 2024.

You told me you didn't think he had any federal issues, that the Supreme Court could legitimately take it.

But his new claim is that he has presidential immunity.

When he made those defamatory comments about Eugene, you've won a case before the Supreme Court, U.S.

versus Windsor, which was a landmark gay marriage case.

You may be arguing that again soon.

But it was a different court at a different time.

So talk about where we are from a legal point of view with this claim.

So on the first verdict, which is kind of the cornerstone of everything, because that's the underlying sexual abuse verdict, the money, Trump, believe it or not, I've never seen anyone do this before, but they deposited the $5 million plus with the court.

And I've been doing commercial litigation in the Southern District for eons at this point.

And I've never seen a defendant just deposit the money with the court.

I don't know what the reason was.

I don't know why they didn't just take out a bond, which is what he did for the bigger verdict.

But they didn't.

So

you're right.

That case, they're going to try to, they've told us they're going to try to take it to the Supreme Court.

The main issue, there's no issue really of presidential immunity there because when he made that statement, he wasn't president.

And obviously, when he assaulted E.G., he wasn't president.

Their main argument

at the second circuit, and I think they'll try it at SCOTUS, is this argument that we admitted the testimony of Jessica Leeds, who was on a plane in 1979 when Trump, she got bumped up to first class.

It's the same pattern.

They were making polite chit-chat, and then all of a sudden he kind of pounced.

The other, Natasha Stoynoff, who was a People Magazine reporter who came to Mar-a-Lago

right before Barron was born, as I recall.

So that would be...

probably 05, I think, or late 05.

And she also, he brought her into a room and kind of did the whole pouncing pouncing thing with her.

And their main argument was kind of ridiculous.

Their main argument was really about Jessica Leeds.

And it was this argument that because she was on a plane and you didn't know what state they were flying over when this happened, then it wasn't necessarily a federal crime, then you couldn't admit it under the rule of evidence that allows prior bad acts to come in when it's a case of sexual assault.

In most circumstances, they don't come in.

The problem with that argument is, I said in my argument at the court, is it was too many lawyers trying to screw in a light bulb because it was a crime in 1979

to do what Donald Trump did to Jessica Leeds.

It was just a different crime.

Even if the Supreme Court thought there was any doubt there, it's not what's called a SCOTUS-worthy issue.

It just isn't.

There's no split between the circuits.

There's no big deal.

And we have so much other evidence that came in as the court concluded it wouldn't have made a difference anyway.

The big verdict

is in a different position.

So there we have argued it.

They raised two issues.

They raised this Westfall Act claim, which is how they got the case to federal court at the very beginning.

And he's now trying to reassert that for the third time.

And they raised the underlying claim of presidential immunity.

They're related claims, but they're under separate legal doctrines.

That I argued before the circuit three weeks ago.

And she killed.

It was like King Henry at Agincourt.

It was unbelievable.

Really?

I thought it was Alexander the Great.

What happened to Alexander the Great?

Now you're king.

Now you're king in Agincourt.

So I think that argument went well.

As you noted, they've already rejected the Westfall Act argument because that they made in a different route to the Second Circuit.

I think they're going to reject the presidential immunity argument because he waived it in this case.

At the very beginning of the case, when we were in still state court, the other side submitted a letter that literally said to the state court judge, no one is seeking to escape accountability here.

Eugene can pursue her claims when he is no longer president.

If that's not a waiver of presidential immunity, I'm not sure what is.

So if it gets to the Supreme Court, what is the, do you have, do you think it has a chance of getting there?

This is a different court, a different time.

I think it certainly has a better chance than the $5 million, which I think has very low chances.

The second claim, I think if you're the justices, you have to be thinking to yourselves, is this really

the factual scenario where we want to deal with presidential immunity yeah right and my guess is most of them for most of them the answer to that question will be no

we'll be back in a minute

eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real.

And so is the relief from Ebglis.

After an initial dosing phase, about four in ten people taking EBGLIS achieve itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks.

And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.

EBGLIS Labrichizumap LBKZ, a 250 milligram per 2 milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema.

Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies.

EBGLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids.

Don't use if you're allergic to EPGLIS.

Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe.

Eye problems can occur.

Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems.

You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Epglis.

Before starting Ebglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection.

Searching for real relief?

Ask your doctor about Ebglis and visit ebglis.lily.com or call 1-800-LILLIERX or 1-800-545-5979.

The Best Coast just got better.

Introducing Quantum of the Seas sailing from LA this fall.

Conquer next level thrills on the boldest ship in the West, like Flowrider surf sessions, bumper cars, and soaring 300 feet above sea level on the North Star.

Plus, more than 15 dining options on board, all between discoveries in Ensenada and even overnights in Cabo.

You've never done Mexico like this.

Book your Boulder-Baja adventure from Los Angeles today.

Come seek the Royal Caribbean.

Itineraries vary by sale date.

Ships registered Bahamas.

As a sports fan, I have to confess.

Sometimes the game gets kind of boring.

That's when I unfold my Samsung Galaxy Z Fold 7 and use multi-window viewing on its large screen.

Boring game?

I'm checking out my Fantasy Baseball League at the same time.

Score still 1-0?

I'm replying to emails in the other window, scoring points with the boss.

Semifinals finally getting exciting?

I'm buying tickets to the finals and booking my flights.

Can your phone do that?

The new Galaxy Z Fold 7.

Get yours at Samsung.com.

So Robbie, President Trump separately has been targeting big law firms.

You have a new law firm, but many of them have struck deals with Trump administration to avoid being penalized.

So far, at least nine firms have promised pro bono work for Trump support initiatives, totaling $1 billion.

Many lawyers are leaving those firms.

You have a new hire has done that.

It's turned out a lot of these things have turned sour for the firms who had acquiesced.

What happens here, including potential Trump opponents like yourselves?

So let me say, first of all, that the first firm that did a deal with Trump was Paul Weiss, and that was the firm where I learned to be a lawyer.

And I was there for over 20 years.

She made partner before she was 30 at Paul Weiss.

That's I paid in to be my press agent.

I'm glad I'm here for this interview so I can instruct people what a brilliant mind you were at 29, 28.

And so

there were certainly

tears in the culture.

It wasn't perfect, but a lot of us, certainly my generation and up at Paul Weiss, really believed in the culture and the principles that the firm had.

And so, this kind of

this quote-unquote deal that the firm did with him is just devastatingly painful to so many of us.

Paul Weiss was known for its litigation practice.

That's what people came to Paul Weiss for.

That's what I did.

That's the kind of work they did, and for their dedication to pro bono and public interest work.

It's not clear to me today that if a law firm has a big private equity MA hedge fund practice, that that practice is necessarily compatible with having a truly independent litigation department.

And so kind of the movement of big firm lawyers to smaller firms has been happening now for years.

It's like in media.

Exactly.

And I think this is only going to make it more pronounced because you can't have, it's not even just having technical conflicts.

You can't really be a litigator if you have to worry that what you say or do in a case involving a completely different client is going to irk one of your private equity guys.

You just can't do it.

Yeah, you look at someone like Abby Lowell's who defended Jared and Ivanka or Jared, and then you look at, and he's done Hunter Biden, right?

He should be able to do whoever he wants.

So speaking of people who have been helpful, Eugene, LinkedIn co-founder, he's founded a lot of things.

Reid Hoffman helped finance your case, someone I know very well.

It might have played out differently if you hadn't had that option.

One, are you worried worried that Trump will use that prom bone money to go after you again?

And what is the prospects of that happening again given the shift of tech?

Now, not Reed by any means.

I think he's probably doubled down on his beliefs in many ways.

How do you think about that money and the kindness of billionaires?

In this case, it benefited you, but most of the billionaires have gone to Trump's side in tech, at least.

Reid Hoffman is a hero.

He not only helped

our case, he

called Robbie because he wanted to help with the Charlottesville case.

When, you know, Robbie trounced the Nazis, the white supremacists, the good old, the proud boys, she took them all down.

That was it.

Reed Hoffman made that possible.

Then there was a little bit of money left over, and Reed called Robbie and said, how about using that for the Eugene Curl

case?

So he's, listen, you don't get better than Reid Hoffman.

He is fighting

the billionaires who are, well, I don't need to tell you.

Would you be worried about getting that now?

Because a lot of them are acquiescent at this point.

We're not actually that much.

You know,

oddly,

I think we're going to get that 83.3 million and I think we're going to give it away, first of all, to help women get our rights back.

Because Robbie and I have enough money.

You know, we don't need more stuff.

But the country is hurting right now.

He's torn it apart.

Democracy is hanging by a thread.

And I am not worried about getting the money.

I think it's going to take a while, though.

It's definitely going to take a while.

Yeah, it's definitely going to take a while.

He'll do everything possible to slow you down.

So, and has done that.

So, you're also going up against Trump with the MTA congestion pricing, and you had the Elon lawsuits.

You have a lot of CCDH.

You're sort of the, I would say, the go-to Trump gladiator or whatever.

Talk a little bit about that because it's a slightly dangerous role, including with tech people like Elon, although now they're on opposite sides inevitably.

Interesting.

Talk a little bit about that and the difficulty.

I think about it all the time, right?

When I'm saying things, but litigation is a little different.

You're causing them financial and other harms that they consider harmful.

You know, it's something that I think is on my wife's mind for understandable reasons all the time.

In order to do what I do, I'm very good at repression.

And so so I can't tell you that I like wake up or think in the middle of the night that I'm afraid.

This is who I am and what I do.

And if

people like me don't fight back, if lawyers who know how to use the court system and who have judges' respect don't fight back, then who will?

What are you afraid of, actually?

I, you know, it's not Trump or Elon so much.

It's all the people who follow them.

And, you know, like that poor Will Stansell,

who was attacked, you know, based on Garok.

That's the people you have to worry about, kind of the nut jobs who actually believe all this QAnon craziness.

Well, they're fighting with each other right now.

So

the ball is, the eye is off you.

But do you imagine it returning once the money gets because he will have a fit.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, I do think that he is not attacking Eugene

or myself right now because he's very worried about how that will be perceived by the justices of the Supreme Court.

I think that's absolutely correct.

Eugene, you're also a fighter.

We've talked a little bit about your threats, the threat level you get.

Talk about that and how your life has changed.

Do you ever believe there will be a moment to move on?

You know, Robbie had talked about sort of a moment where everything stopped for you.

Oh, listen.

I don't care if they shoot me.

I don't care.

I'd like to get shot in the arm.

I'd like to get shot.

I don't want to be shot in the head and dead.

I don't care.

I do not care.

I want everybody in the country to get off their lazy asses and walk outside.

Look at their neighbors.

That's what I'd like people to do.

We're living in,

it's stupid to be afraid.

Why live your life that way?

I've been here 81 years.

I'm not going to waste the last of it worrying about that guy in marmalade-colored makeup.

It makes no sense.

So that's what I'm going to do.

That's what you're going to do.

And

when this money gets to you, is there anything you're going to do for yourself?

I got it.

Look, you can see

I got all my stuff.

I don't need anything.

I don't like stuff.

You know what?

It occurred to me, Kara.

Okay, we won't tell anybody.

I was thinking of getting a facelift, $65,000.

Then I think, what do I want a fucking facelift for?

$65,000?

You know, that's

six scholarships to a community college.

No, you know, if I'm sagging and bagging all over the place, good.

I don't care.

No, it just, I can't wait.

Eugene, you wrote about all of Robbie's superstitions.

Which ones do you think are funniest?

And Robbie, which ones do you believe helped you win this case and ensure that you prevail in the future?

Oh, my.

For me, every single one of them.

No question.

You know, I was on the stand for three days.

Joe Takapina cross-examined me for two straight days.

After I got off the stand, we went back to the offices.

and Matt Craig who was on the Carol team went over and guess what he did he opened

a bottle of oh my god of champagne it may as well been a hand grenade Robbie backed up like

no champagne until we win no champagne I mean she was terrified and Matt just said, fuck it, I'm drinking.

But Robbie wouldn't touch it.

So that's.

Yeah.

That's the one that was funny.

What you think they all helped you, Robbie?

That's very every single look.

I have no way of knowing, obviously, none of us do what helped or what doesn't.

So, I believe every single one of them is necessary.

We, I had to do it, and if we have to do another case, I will do it.

Carol Martin got off the stand.

Robbie's in the car next to me.

She said, Carol Martin just won our case, and then she spits three times.

Meaning,

because

God is listening to Robbie Kaplan say that Carol Martin just won the case, and God will punish Robbie Kaplan if she doesn't spit three times.

I pretend to spit.

I don't actually spit.

Okay.

My grandmother used to do that, Robbie.

She was Italian.

Kara, what are you superstitious of, Kara?

Nothing.

Really?

I believe that.

No.

Not at all.

Do you not wear special shoes, special socks?

No.

You have a lucky outfit?

Nope.

Lucky pair of jeans?

Nope.

Lucky sunglasses?

People ask me what I'm scared of.

I said scary things

to tell you.

Like most things, no, but scary things, yes.

Nope, nothing.

I'm not superstitious at all.

You weren't raised Catholic, were you?

I was, but I walk under ladders, I guess.

So

let me ask you your last question.

When we're in this situation, and there's a feeling of spiraling out of control of the Trump people with this Epstein thing, you're seeing, you're sort of, I was telling Scott on pivot just a second ago, you're starting to see their ass, right?

You're starting to see the fractures and fissures and things like that.

That said, the damage being done is vast and will continue until he either is gone or he lacks power or

both or whatever.

And the likelihood of it continuing, I feel is not,

is very clear that no one can hold it together except him.

How are you looking at this moment right now?

Despite your victories and everything else, how do you look at this moment?

I just believe that my job is to keep fighting.

And that I,

even though a lot of people would say that my cynical instincts as a lawyer are very good, at bottom, I think I'm hopeful.

And I do think we will be able to turn this around.

It's going to take some time.

It's going to take a lot of pain for a lot of people.

This moment, Cara, I grab the joy whenever it comes on.

That's how I'm looking at this moment.

We have to stop being despondent and look at each other.

It's called praxis.

We organize.

When we organize, we can change laws.

That's what we need to do.

I'm going to suggest that at the end of this month we all get together on social media and all text the same thing.

I don't know.

Do you have an idea what we could all text?

Really, Kara.

Yes, I do.

This fucking guy.

Oh,

there you go.

May I put that on substaff?

You may, please do.

This fucking guy is my favorite expression for substaff.

Why don't we all get on whatever social media we have?

We have

all help.

Publish that at the same time, the same day, at the same hour.

Okay, go ahead.

Beating the pants.

This fucking guy.

I say that about a lot of people, this fucking guy.

Oh, boy, I am going to be able to do it.

Rebecca Traister says.

All over.

Let's get this going.

Okay.

All right.

All right.

Okay.

This fucking guy.

Okay.

Well, yeah, well, you seem to have beaten him.

Anyway, you guys.

This is good.

Thank you so much for both of you and three spits for everybody.

Thank you.

Thank you, Kara.

I appreciate it.

On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor-Rousselle, Kateri Yoakum, Megan Burney, Allison Rogers, and Kaylin Lynch.

Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts.

Special thanks to Annika Robbins.

Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics.

If you're already following the show, you're ready for a battle like Henry V at Agincourt.

If not, PewQ Pew, three spits for you too.

Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Carr Swisher and hit follow.

And don't forget to follow us on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at OnWithKara Swisher.

Thanks for listening to On with Cara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us.

We'll be back on Monday with more.

This episode is brought to you by FX's Alien Earth, the official podcast.

Each week, host Adam Rogers is joined by guests, including the show's creator, cast, and crew, in this exclusive companion podcast.

They will explore story elements, deep dive into character motivations, and offer an episode-by-episode behind-the-scenes breakdown of each terrifying chapter in this new series.

Search FX's Alien Earth wherever you listen to podcasts.