Jerrod Carmichael on Truth in Comedy, Coming Out Late & Religion

I do a lot of comics, and so I'm very excited to have you.

Who's been your favorite?

Oh, don't do this.

I'm competitive.

Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

This is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher.

My guest today is Emmy Award-winning stand-up comedian, writer, and director Gerard Carmichael.

Gerard has been making comedy for nearly 20 years.

In 2014, his first stand-up special, Love at the Store, was directed by Spike Lee.

From 2015 to 2017, he wrote, produced, and starred in the NBC sitcom The Carmichael Show.

He has executive produced, directed, and acted in TV and film, including the Oscar-winning romp, Poor Things.

And despite having mined his personal life for comedy for all of those years, his 2022 HBO special, Rathaniel, was full of secrets he hadn't revealed before, his family's and his own, including that he's gay.

It was stand-up as therapy, and it won him an Emmy.

But Gerard didn't stop there.

Last year, he came out with a Gerard Carmichael reality show, an eight-episode series documenting his attempts to come out to his friends, make peace with his father, and find common ground with his deeply religious Southern Baptist mother and her notions of heaven, hell, and unconditional love.

It's also about trying to be in his first open relationship without falling back into those lies.

It turns out to be harder than it looks.

Gerard's latest stand-up special, Don't Be Gay, came out last month and I thought it was fantastic.

He's really mining a lot of his personal things, but it's actually still funny.

I like a storyteller more than anybody, more than stand-up that just goes for joke after joke.

So he's incredibly thoughtful in the genre of a lot of comedians today who are doing a lot more than just telling jokes.

Our expert question today comes from another very thoughtful comedian whom I interviewed a few months ago, Michelle Bouteau.

So happy pride to everyone and enjoy.

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I want to start with talking about your special, which I loved.

It's a new HBO special called Don't Be Gay.

I think it's your fourth or fifth?

Fourth of them, right?

Yeah.

Fourth of them, yeah.

Just in time for Pride.

Do you do Pride?

I do Pride in my own way.

Tell me why.

I just don't like crowds.

I don't want, I don't, yeah, like there's no parades, right?

There's no parades scary, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I understand pride.

Here's the thing: I, after coming out, I didn't come out till I was 30.

And then

after coming out, I have like Google alerts for myself, obviously.

Obviously.

And there's like all these, I'm on these lists in these countries.

It's like basically like lists of gay celebrities.

Like, oh, like, guess who's gay?

Like, we hate you.net or whatever.

And I understand pride because like I'm a terrified traveler I will not go to your country unless you have a pride parade I don't want to participate in a pride parade right but you better show me a

faggot with a shirt off on a float going down a lot there are countries that are not friendly to gays that still also like there's a lot of both at least well I need at least that you need at least I need it you better I won't flag like show me that like that he can safely make it from one end of the street to the other same thing with a state like a state in the United States most of them have a pride yeah yeah i guess they have a private parade i mean the places i would that's more um a culinary thing like places i don't visit right

yeah yeah but i don't like parades either i i the only thing i enjoy is every now and then a dyke march is kind of cool because they're frightening and they yeah yeah

but it's for the show i understand it for the show a show of safety a show of support i totally understand that yeah there was just an interesting interview with richard grinnell you know he works for trump he's running the kennedy center he's there he's their gay oh he's their gay he's there they found they They found a gay.

They found a gay who hates himself.

For the arts.

Normal gays don't like pride parades.

And I was like,

normal gays do.

Well, normal gays.

They have normal ones.

Well, normal gays don't program for Donald Trump.

Right, that's exactly right.

That's right.

So let's talk about the special.

You talked about being raised straight when you came out in Rathaniel.

And you talked about you kept part of your life secret.

You said 30 years old.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm giving like a rough estimate.

30.

That's late.

Yeah.

Especially in this day and age.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So why so late?

I was scared of my mom.

And they're like, it could probably be reduced to being that simple.

Like, like when I came out, like, that was the biggest fear.

It was also a change of perception.

Something happens, I think, if you wait.

I think you can come out in like these windows.

Like, I think like, you know, when you're really young or like college is a chance to form a new identity.

So you can come out then.

And then like I kind of slipped into this thing where I moved to LA and I met all these new friends and close friends.

And so now I've just been lying to them for years and years and years.

So it was like, I want to tell you something,

but I also don't want to tell you that I've been lying to you for this long.

And then there's this, the religious fear, the fear of God's punishment, the fear of my mother as she represents God, all these things just like compounded and made me wait.

What were you fearful of with your mother?

Judgment, like judgment not being the person that

like my, like my mother's, my mother has the best idea i'm trying to think of how to explain this like like i would love to be able to see myself as my mother sees me she birthed a son that she prayed for that she wanted and

he came and she has nothing but the best hopes and wishes and like has this beautiful idea it's a really beautiful idea of like what her son is supposed to be and how he's supposed to be in the world and i love most of it

like most of it i'd love to to accept successful happy successful happy however like being gay didn't align with that idea

and so i was i was afraid of shattering it like both for her for me it was it was a was it explicit was gay explicit in yeah yeah well well that yeah that's that kind of came with the the really southern baptist package right and they're more aggressive than ever today yeah they're hoping to return overturn gay marriage the baptists have said it explicitly

yeah that makes sense that makes sense so

I mean, it makes sense from their perspective.

Like, of course,

I was always like, they're just not going to stop.

But one of the things that you did, though, is you, even though you came out then, you did drop breadcrumbs all over the place, it seems like to me.

Watching your stuff in 2015, you had your NBC sitcom, the Carmichael show.

Fourth episode was about a teenager coming out to you.

First is gay, then as transgender.

Your fictional parents in that show, Joe and Cynthia, same names as your real parents, by the way, handled the situation pretty well.

So it was kind of like wishful.

Yeah, I was like writing like right how you'd like them to go.

Yeah, how I like the future to go.

Yeah.

You also made references in your 2019 home videos.

Talk about that.

Were you consciously aware you were, I assume you were doing it.

Yeah, well, home videos, home videos was like, that was my, my soft launch.

Right.

But it was, I was so terrified.

That was the whole reason I did it.

I had just come out to my closest friends, maybe like a couple weeks before that.

Which they knew, right?

Some knew, some were gracious, some like, some were shocked.

I got like a kind of

range of reactions.

You got a lot of no shit, Sherlock, but go ahead.

I'm having a soft launch where I like, I like built up enough courage to tell my best friend.

And then I do this thing where like it's like a real floodgate type of mentality where I'm like, okay, well, now I guess I need to tell everybody in the world, starting with my mom.

And I made this documentary.

I went to North Carolina.

Reality show.

Before that, it was called Home Videos.

And that was where it like really was all built around this moment in the living room where I was going to tell my mom, but I couldn't say I was gay.

I couldn't.

I think I was bi for like two weeks.

Oh, okay, right.

I think I like.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, I could go, no, no, I could go both ways and still have a wife.

Yeah, yeah, like just like lying to myself or whatever.

But I was so nervous.

I was just on the couch.

And my mom had just gone through a lot finding out about my father's, like, like other family so i like was like having this heavy conversation with her and like on top of that i was like and i hooked up with dudes before it's like in camera pants to her she's my mom's my mom is cool unfortunately and just like like actually like cool right to the point of being cold yeah yeah yeah and she's like that's your preference

oh yeah oh that's a killer yeah yeah yeah oh oh that's ice preference ice yeah that's what you want to do that's what you want to do yeah so not a screaming kind of thing no I got a screamer.

Really?

Yeah.

Which was easier, I suppose, in some fashion.

I actually

like I provoke arguments in my relationship because I think I associate like

screaming with like truth.

People usually aren't like screaming a lie.

Right, right, right.

Unless they're narcissists.

Yeah, maybe.

Yeah.

Right.

So you

is it strange to look back at those moments when you

look at them?

Not strange.

That was actually probably the beginning of

like i can look back at those moments now knowing that i was doing the best that i possibly could

this is the best at the time at the time this is the best i could do at the time this is as brave as i could be is the most i could say and i can look back at it then what's difficult is looking back at like even like old stand-up before coming out because i i could see how much of

it all was a performance right I could see.

Do you remember a joke that was?

Well, just all I was doing, you know, just jokes about like really like aggressive,

like tearing down marriage.

A lot of that was with my, because of my parents and like seeing, you know, the lies and stuff that my father told, but, but then also like a lie I was telling myself like made me very cynical and skeptical about marriage as an institution.

And well, it's all built on lies anyway.

And that's also, it's, you know, you're in your 20s and you've got all the answers.

So for different reasons, it's hard for me to look at that time in my life with like pride and confidence.

I can't, I wasn't recording any sets.

I wasn't like posting anything online.

Like I was a very, I was like a club comic, just going up, performing my jokes, having this antagonistic exchange with the audience.

And then I leave and go off to my own private life.

Did that make you a less good comic when you weren't yourself?

Some people think that if you're not your genuine self.

Well, that's kind of, yeah.

I think for me, yes, I think I found something in the truth and found something in Revelation that was really necessary and not just cathartic, but necessary for the skill and the craft, like to be able to write uninhibitedly and to be able to like articulate a full experience because I find that really rewarding.

Things that I was hiding are actually what a lot of my act is about now.

So for me, yes, I think there are some people who have built characters that are funny and it works.

And, like, you know, like Sebastian Maniscalco doesn't need to have like some type of like deep revelation about his relationship with his father because like he's he's found like a stage character that works.

Like, I think there's a lot of

Seinfeld or like people that have felt like a persona on stage that really works.

That's different.

Yeah.

But you use the material from your life in the Gerard Carmarkle reality show.

People call it a Truman show-esque.

It's more of a documentary.

You had the camera team follow you around, capturing lots of hard coming out conversations with friends, your parents,

and your relation with your current boyfriend, Mike.

One of the scenes that I really liked was when you agreed to pray with your mother.

You had a very strange smile on your face that's just heartbreaking.

Talk a little bit about that moment and the religious issues and your relationship now.

Because you're pulling her into it.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, so I invited her to New York.

I came out, a relationship was strained.

I invited her to New York.

And it was a lot of like, me,

go to therapy, family therapy with me.

You know, listen to my perspective.

And I tried so hard to like hammer it.

And I was being really, really aggressive.

And it was a moment where I was like, hey, what if I actually listen?

What do you want?

Like, what is a solution that you feel comfortable with?

Like, I haven't, I realized I wasn't listening to her.

Like, I've flown her to New York just to kind of like bully her into like my perspective.

perspective right right you will like me in my yeah you will like me in my gay kingdom yeah yeah but but i but i didn't listen to her and so and i and i wanted to listen and she wanted to pray she wanted to like actually pray and like have and and it's funny it's a it's a strange feeling because

you know i've kind of taken this long route back to like understanding the the necessity of like ritual of prayer, of hope, faith.

And I admire that about my my mother.

I admire her like very steadfast,

unmovable faith.

Right.

And I actually think

it's a practice.

And I think that like that part of her personality that I've gotten, and even just in a spiritual level, I think I've reaped benefits from that.

Right.

Like this, this woman who like prayed for her son that's going thousands of miles away to Los Angeles to this, he knew nobody with a dream and

this belief that God did have like was going to bless a path of purpose in my life.

Like, I, I, these things, I can't just like take the good, yeah, right, you know, like, take the positive, yeah, yeah.

And so, so, there's something really beautiful about that, and something, uh, and I have kind of felt the necessity for that again in my life.

I've been trying to rebuild God.

Like, I realized, like, I grew up Southern Baptist singing on the choir.

You know, people thought I was going to be a minister, like saltines and grape juice, having communion at home.

Then, you know, moved out,

got too too smart for the religion, and have kind of now in my, in my 30s, like come back around to understanding the need for, and especially I understand my mother's need for it.

Right.

Right.

You know, like, God is the only man in her life that wasn't lying to her.

My mother is like, her, her father, her husband, and even I, like, as much as I've found myself trying to protect her, was lying about, you know, like God's

the only man in her life that was

with it.

Yeah.

Do you think it's a need for spirituality on your behalf or a belief in Christianity?

Which one is it?

Every now and then I wander past a church and want to go in.

Yeah.

Something, you know, something higher, something bigger, something bigger than yourself.

And going back to potential, like seeing that in myself and seeing that in others, that takes practice to be able to look someone in the eyes and say, look someone who may be having a frustrated moment and say, like, no, you're bigger than this moment.

Like you, to have a system in place that is grander.

do you use that system anymore given you grew up in it it's hard to move away from practices yeah yeah i still i find myself like singing and playing gospel on sundays not even realizing it's sunday

it's just like finding myself like like

that's the music that moves me i can cry listening to spiritual music i i definitely need it and i've accepted it again i've i've let go of like being too smart what do you mean you're too smart for it because i i like i could break down like my spirituality and maybe like three steps.

It's just like, okay, believe everything's good.

Step one.

Step two, hey, that's fucking stupid.

Open your eyes, look around.

Right.

And then step three is, yeah, but believe it anyway.

I see.

Yeah, that's faith.

Like going, yeah, going past that, like that, that step.

I've read too much.

I know too much to be.

It's obvious that things aren't all good.

Yeah, there's a part of me that wants to believe that, but there's a part of me that like wants to smother that.

We'll be back in a minute

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Watching Raleigh's show with all the home video footage of your childhood mixed in, you were using cameras from a young age.

Yeah.

Were you performing, or what did you think about it?

And did you see yourself in the third person as like the character in the play that is

abroad?

I think so.

I think like psychoanalysis would say, yes, that's what I was doing.

I didn't know what I was doing, but I liked a show.

I love putting on a show.

It was all a a show.

The church was one of my favorite shows.

And wrestling grew up watching WWE.

I loved that show.

And home was a show.

Like, and the performance of my parents' marriage is the performance of myself as the good son.

It was all a show.

So I loved when like life seemed to make sense when we were putting on the show.

When the cameras are rolling.

or the curtains are drawn back.

Now, actually, the show at least makes sense.

It gives purpose to the show that I was already performing anyway.

So yeah, yeah, I do have a love for the camera.

When you look back at those home videos, what do you think?

Oh, yeah, I think I hear my voice and I go like, oh, you poor gay boy.

You know.

Yeah, like I hear my voice and

I hear the need to be a good son, to be an entertainer.

You know, I see that.

It's kind of a need to be seen, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Which is the thing that I was most terrified of.

Right.

So in reality show, you have an anonymous friend.

People guessed it's fellow comedian Bo Burnham, who has directed a couple.

You'll never tell.

You'll never tell.

Okay.

He kind of calls you on the bullshit of the idea of the show being reality and warns you treating the camera like it's God, right?

He was a stand-in for the criticism you think you're going to get.

And you're taking the wind out of those sails.

Talk about this anonymous character and how you were thinking of it in the narrative structure of that show.

Like, you know, the Greek chorus.

Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

You know, foreboding and

wise and plays that role in my actual life.

So that made sense for the structure of the show.

Right.

You know, it's funny because it's a real choice that you made there, you know, to have that.

Yeah, yeah.

Well,

because it's interesting.

I come up.

Like I said, I'm like, came in with my first reference is like Dick Havoc and all these like things.

I come up thinking television and the cameras and all these things are like a miracle.

And I learned to put on a show and I learned like a skill at a time when like a lot of my friends were like leaning into like, all right, well, you got to put your set on YouTube and you have to be on, you know, Twitter and Dane Cook just had a million followers on MySpace, you know, and that kind of thing.

And like, oh, like everyone was leaning into

that type of technology.

I was still trying to develop like this.

specific craft of like connecting with an audience like a live audience and like and even and developing

it and television is a miracle.

So like, all right, you have to craft the show, like these, this very well-written, well-crafted show.

And so I was developing this skill while it seemed like the world was going in a different direction.

By the time I did reality show, I'd done the five-camera NBC.

And I'd written my parents' response and how it should be and the father knows best and we hug at the end of the episode.

Like I'd written all of it.

I'd done all of that like when it was time to do like the deal with HBO I was like well I could write another I could do that but I've done that already and the world seems to be moving in this direction where it's like reality is like strange like like everybody's got a camera and everybody's kind of got their own show and everyone's putting on a performance in their bedroom and like the world is this now so I was like well what if that's my show what if I like kind of take right everything I've learned up until this point point and meet the world where it is?

And just like, instead of like writing my mother's response to my coming out, because I was going to do the autobiographical comic thing that comics.

I told my mother I was going to do it.

Yeah, yeah.

And so, but what if it's, what if instead of casting Loretta Devine this time, we get actual Cynthia Carmichael to come and have her response and we make that into the show.

And a lot of the craft was in the editing.

And a lot of what I needed to be was just like open.

What did she think of it?

My mother?

Yeah.

My mother doesn't change for the camera.

Right.

So she thinks exactly what you see.

That's part.

That's another part of it.

So what does she think of you doing that?

She'd prefer if I not.

Yeah.

But because she's unchanged, it's like, all right, well, if this is what you want to do, fine.

You want me to say it again for the camera?

Like,

if we were having a private conversation and then I said, hey, I'm going to bring in an entire crew and a camera.

I'm going to mic you.

Do you mind repeating repeating that?

She'd go, yeah, sure.

I could say it again.

She'd be more burdened by repeating herself than by the cameras coming into the room.

Yeah, but every episode we get a question from an outside expert.

Yours is another modly hyphenate comedian I've interviewed, Michelle Bouteau.

I know.

Let's go with that.

As a creator, co-creator, starring in executive producer, whether it is a sitcom or a stand-up special or a reality show, how do you find the line, like the fine line, the balance between giving too much of yourself or not enough?

Do you feel it in the moment?

Do you plan ahead about what you're going to share?

Are there consequences with sharing your mind, body, soul, and spirit and stories with people?

That's my question.

Which she does too.

Yeah, no, for sure.

I don't really think about it.

I don't think it's

because there's two lines.

It's like, I want to continue to evolve and change and grow on all these words as a person.

And I also want to be able to craft something entertaining.

Sometimes it's like, I think those two things align and sometimes they may not.

And like the reality show was just, and Rothaniel were like specials and pieces of art where those things align and that the...

me,

I was the show, that was the show.

Right.

There are times like my most recent special, Don't Be Gay, where it's like all those jokes and ideas aren't necessarily just me in that moment, but it's like a crafted idea.

Right.

In an edit, you think about it.

Yeah, in an edit, yeah.

And it's all edited.

And it's all, so it is in some ways like sacrificing all of it for

the art.

Yeah, yeah.

Just like, yeah.

Are there consequences?

Do you feel consequences with doing that?

Oh, for sure.

For sure, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There are people in my life that are very angry about the cameras.

There are also people, I think there's consequences to just being truthful.

Yeah.

Right?

Like, like, like, all right, remove every camera.

Like, you go around like telling the truth.

People are going to hate.

Yeah.

Yes, they do.

Like, people are going to get really upset.

They secretly like you.

Yeah, yeah.

Talk about some of the consequences in your recent special, Don't Be Gay.

It's more like a regular stand-up, right?

It's pretty sexually explicit.

You talk about your open relationship.

You talk about sex with strangers from Grinder.

You talk about race and racial dynamics, how people reacted to your boyfriend who was white.

You got a lot of vitriol on black Twitter after the reality show came out, but you repeatedly say you're focused on homophobia that you forgot about the racism.

Which is which one shall we do?

Um, talk about the reactions to your specials in various communities, and does that play a role in your creative process?

Yeah,

my friend uh jokes and says that I'm at too many intersections.

You are very interesting,

you know,

like

race and race and money and class and uh uh sexuality, it's just religion.

It's just, it's act.

I do feel like I'm like standing at two, like the on-the-nose, like key art for any of my work could just be like a man with an umbrella at another section.

So it is kind of a, for any reaction, there's like another side that disagrees with them.

Like, I don't,

I wouldn't know where to turn or where to be pulled.

You know, I want to make people happy.

I really,

that's a, that's a lie.

I want people to be entertained because that's my job.

That's correct.

That's really what I want.

I'm also now, I've been in the business long enough, I've seen

the value or your value as an entertainer change.

There was a time when there was a wall, right?

Where the celebrity, the person, the personality was someone to be like, they put on makeup and they went on the show and you wondered what their life was and they were to be admired and

you like, you see what they present and then they they go away and now everyone kind of has that for themselves you can put out your opinion your thoughts your your face you can expose yourself you can expose yourself constantly like everyone's the news like you like everyone is their own like 24-hour news channel right so the best you could be as an artist is like the OJ trial right

maybe not but but kind of just like oh but but but unfortunately it's not watching everyone's watching and everyone's gonna have an opinion and but that's the that's the art.

It is for people to go.

Some people are going to hate it.

How much role in your creative is to change the creative process when you get reaction?

I try not to let it, but I can tell you it does.

Yeah, of course, of course.

Yeah.

I mean, my last special is like, it's talking about my reaction to reactions.

And so it's not just like a snake eating itself.

Like, you kind of have, I have to step away from it for a little while.

Like now, like, you, you, you only stop searching your name on Twitter because you've been hurt.

Right, right.

I don't believe that anymore.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's the word content.

Yeah, you're on Twitter now.

Yeah, everyone does it.

It's for bringing it.

At most, you can just not do it anymore.

Right, that's right.

That's true.

That's true.

That's true.

But you had to stop.

It was like, oh, that was like.

That was, yeah.

Well, it changed.

It changed.

That particular platform changed.

Can you go back to class for a minute?

It just stuck in my head.

That was a theme in your earlier work.

And kind of the third rail in America.

No one talks about class.

Now, again, since you're at the intersection, right now you're talking about don't be gay.

But talk a little bit about the class stuff that was in your earlier work because I thought that was really interesting.

Well, just because I mean, it's a

you know, I grew up in a in a place in an environment where people didn't have money.

So

like you think about money all the time.

You like you're obsessed, you know, or lack thereof.

One of the first things I remember when we got the internet, there was this website that broke down Bill Gates' wealth into like little pieces of like bits of information.

I remember one that said Bill gates makes over 300 per second yeah so if he's walking down the street and he drops a hundred dollar bill on the ground it's not worth his time to bend over right and just leave it

imagine being nine like what the are you even talking about right like like an obsession with like money well how do i get this how do i get that church like i talk about that in a special like church because it makes me understand i understand people's need for like trump if you're poor trump represents like this.

It's an aspirational.

Yeah, yeah.

And the way, because I grew up around people that went to like mega churches, like poor people, like they just couldn't pay like medical bills that had like pointed to a minister in a mansion with the Mercedes.

But I understand the need for that.

Rappers did that for me.

Like, I'm like, I couldn't afford the things they were talking about.

But like through proxy, I'm like, oh, I feel confident.

I feel that.

And so then,

you know, my life is like, is strange because then like, oh, now I'm like thrown on the other side of that.

Right, right, right, right.

And now, like, it's just a completely different perspective that I'm still like learning.

I'm learning how to talk about, learning how to deal with.

Comedians don't usually talk about money.

Like, it's kind of like

it's supposed to be more relatable in the ever every to everyone.

Yeah, yeah.

But I just find it interesting.

So, one of the things that you talk about a lot also is who you mentioned Dick Havitt.

You mentioned others.

I know why Dick Havitt's come up a lot today.

Dick Havitt was amazing.

That's because he was.

Or Tom Snyder or Merv Griffin, or there were so many of them.

But you often say also you love Norman Lear and so many others.

Who influences you now?

And is there LGBTQ work you admire, or

not?

Yeah, no, for sure.

Well, here's the thing: what the funny thing is, out or closeted, if you are an artist, you are heavily influenced by LGBTQ work.

Yes, it just comes.

That's right.

Yeah, like

if you're in the church, anyway.

Who was the most important previously as a young person?

Well, Jay-Z was like my role model, somebody who I looked to for emotional guidance and practical guidance and to be like, you know, how to walk, how to speak, what to wear, how to be in the world.

Like, like he, he was my role model more than any kind of.

Because he came from a place.

that was similar to where I was and he made it out and he carried himself with such confidence.

And he like never lost touch, like lost a sense of who he was.

And I needed that.

I still need that.

I'm so lucky to have the big brother I have who like chose Jay-Z as his favorite rapper because, like, Jay-Z is one of the only rappers that grew in the form and like talked about things that rappers just never talk about.

Like, the person who made Big Pimpin also made 444.

That just usually doesn't happen in an artist's career, right?

Any genre, anything.

Yeah, yeah, an evolving artist.

So

that's so rich and interesting he also talked about his gay mom yeah yeah yeah deep personal things like it was incredible and it you know um

but as far as uh comedians i i still i mean you know i i i love louis i think louis ck may be one of the more brilliant minds and i wish i could do what he does i i can't i think i'm closer to like cosby like in like storytelling like i think that's just where i've found myself storytelling yeah yeah and like telling stories and like like using, like using my life as the material and like stretch.

But like Louis.

He's very meta, isn't he?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, you know, obviously we're adults, so I don't have to do the whole disclaimer thing.

Don't roofy people.

Don't show your picture.

Yeah, obviously don't do that.

Yeah.

So you were in the breakfast club.

You were on the breakfast club a year or so ago and said something really interesting.

Let me play it for you.

Comedy doesn't grow.

Comedy doesn't evolve.

It's kind of stunted like rap.

And like we just start getting like real braggadocious, like antagonistic with the crowd.

And it can evolve.

Like, and we need smart people like Dave, like Chris Rock, like myself to actually evolve the art form because it is dying.

It's so, so important for people to go up and do deep personal stories or have a deep perspective about things going on in the world because it's not happening.

Well, that's something to say.

What do you mean about comedy being stunted?

Well, yeah, you know, look, I'm evolve or die.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, that's this probably could be

even bigger statement about like art because the word platform gets used a lot.

And I'm just of the belief that a platform isn't a platform if everybody's standing on it.

And so like now a lot of like, I will take comedy.

There's some very funny comedians who do crowd work, but now like, I don't want the crowd

like like my work isn't with the crowd.

Like my work are like these thoughts that I like, you know, took time to craft and think through and write through or felt brave enough to share or like something that's like interesting that like

it just becomes something else.

Right, right.

You know, like it like it, and I'm, and I watch comedy kind of take on a different form than like a crowd source kind of thing.

Yeah, yeah.

And I, and I never really believed in like crowdsourcing art.

I don't think that I think it's like part of the reason you don't like take the American Idol winners seriously.

Right, right.

Like, oh, I voted voted for you.

I chose you.

How could I ever take you seriously?

Um, and how could you, they also feel beholden to the crowd, like to invest it, like that's the difference between art and business.

The CEO of the company should be beholden to the shareholders, the artists should be beholden to themselves, right?

And like, create something hard to resist given the participation in the audience now, either through social media or comments, or they do it themselves, or they have comments on the comments.

Well, well, it's profitable, yeah.

So

there's that, like, you know like that you you say

to the crowd yeah yeah like you kind of start sounding like the rock you know it's a lot of like we we we did it we sold out this room you know we like we we we and like that's one way of approaching it and and i i think i just have a different so you're more like a chef like i made this for you they're like not it's up to you yeah i would never that's a great example i would never want to go to the restaurant where i you want you want me to make i'm in charge of pasta would you like a little yeah add a little turmeric yeah yeah like no i'm gonna ruin the dish right it is interesting because a lot of people do when you have like when you have especially even now we have a lot of fans now i think it more is and people tell you what they think yeah we think you should do this and i'm like i'm not doing anything yeah you say and also if i did you will hate me right right you actually don't know that and like it's easy to get caught up in that like no you will you will hate well it's the quote like never give the audience what they want they'll never forgive you

that's true that's true one of the things that actually is easy to do, too, besides low-hanging fruit and not evolving, is punching down, which I think we're on a dunk culture.

Trump exemplifies the dunk culture.

Obviously, Michelle and you have been openly critical of Dave Chappelle and other comedians who punch down in sets.

You got a bit of media back and forth with Chappelle on talking about jokes on trans folks.

You've walked back a little bit.

I get why.

I personally just think one joke is funny.

An hour of it is not.

My argument, honestly, was

removed from it's it's me as a fan of his right as like a fan of his and as a fan of the art form itself

and and so i it was more a critique of like craft i i evil knievel is gonna jump over 13 buses right he revs up he's about to do it

So he's like, he's getting nervous.

The crowd's like, is he going to make it?

Is he going to live or die?

He goes over.

He lands on the other side.

He does it.

It's a miracle.

If he circles around and does it again.

Correct.

Oh, it's easy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do something, then, then add more buses.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And so it's just, it's just how like I think lazy is what I had the issue with it.

I'm like, it's just not funny.

Like, I like a good lesbian.

Boy, Bored, you did it.

Like, I thought it was, it's, it is just as a spectator, it's an incredible thing to pull off.

Like, I, and I, I,

I also appreciate the spectacle and building up.

Like, it's hard to make anything.

He got pulled into it.

He got pulled into the argument.

Yeah, yeah, you know, I think, but again, that's my

people seem to love it.

Some of it.

People seem to love it.

And I even get, in some cases, like,

I don't even get caught up in the punching up, punching down.

If you have a thought, like, there probably is somebody with way more that can make a funny joke about somebody with way less and I would laugh.

Like, I would be guilty of that.

I don't even think about that in principle.

It is just.

Is it funny or not?

Well, just are you maximizing your own potential and your own ability?

I see so much.

And that's a personal question.

Yeah, it's about craft for me more than it's a political argument.

Is it different from what the Trump people are doing?

You know, all the

they do a lot of dunking.

Dunking is a sport at this point.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, but then I got to think about like, all right, how like I didn't vote for Trump, right?

So, but I'm like, how am I complicit in his rise?

Like, I do a lot of that.

Like, what am I, what, what did I do?

Like, I paid him a lot of attention.

I have laughed.

He makes me laugh.

He can be funny.

There's a part of me that like wants to, like, that is angry and I want to punch down sometimes too.

Like, I, like, he does do a thing

that

it's not.

Obama and Trump kind of like Captain Planet, Captain Pollution,

to me.

Like, you know, like, like Obama is like kind of the best of our virtues.

You know, like, Captain Planet was like earth, fire, wind, water, heart.

And like, and

Trump is the runoff, like the things that we don't necessarily, but, but it's, they're both true.

Right, right, right.

You know what I mean?

Like, they're both, they're both true.

They're both coming from a true place.

Like, they, they both are a part of us.

And, and, like, I, I, I guess with, with, like, Trump, he makes me interested in exploring like the worst part of myself, I think, in some way.

Yeah.

To be able to think about and correct when it needs to be corrected.

Well, do you do a lot of political saturation?

You don't, because a lot of comedians are now.

And some people are going the opposite direction.

The Carmichael show was focused on societal issues, not politics.

Do you feel like doing more political humor or do you think people are tired of it?

I talk about it in my living room.

As far as like my work, I try and,

my work is about what holds my attention.

I haven't felt myself having the

interest in keeping up with the

comedians who like a thing happens, they're on it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, immediately.

Yeah, here we go.

Like, here we go.

And like, and they may have like a really good take on it.

The things that I talk about are things that I've been like dealing with for like

weeks and months and years and like things that I'm like, a perspective, a breakthrough that I could bring.

And to me, like, that's the best that I could bring.

Right.

Like, right now.

Yeah, yeah.

One of the things that was forthaniel, which I think people are surprised, it had a few few jokes, right?

And you said that reality show was a sitcom.

What is then comedy to you if it has few jokes?

Well, Rothaniel was just like, I think it's like this art piece, this like

very emotional.

That it's a journey that you're on with the performer.

And Reality Show is in many ways a journey.

My most recent special, Don't Be Gay, is

I think it just is just crafted material.

It's like,

I think philosophically, I like tension

and like breaking tension is what makes me laugh.

And sometimes that's being the lone voice of truth in a room full of lies.

Comedy doesn't have to be funny.

Well, to me, what is funny,

when I watch comedies, like a lot of my favorite comedies are dramas.

Right?

Like, like, just like, I think, like, Tarantino, like, like, Tarantino is one of the funniest like film directors.

He's not technically,

you know, like he's not writing comedy, but it's really funny.

Like, like Christoph's characters are funny because he breaks tension in an interesting way.

If everybody's funny, for me, this is like my own personal, and I've had tastes like this since I was a kid.

If everybody's funny, then nothing's funny.

You know, the best example I think of

my own personal taste in comedy, there was

this movie that we love called Minister Society.

It came out in the early 90s, the Hughes Brothers, like

heavy, dark, telling the story about this young man loses his parents, is raised by his grandparents, gets caught up in the streets.

And like really, really heavy movie that has some of the funniest moments, like really funny scenes in it.

You know, like Clifton Powell has a thing.

I won't have to get into the detail, but this is a serious movie that has really funny moments.

I think Menace of Society is funnier than there was a Wayne's Brothers parody of it called Don't Be a Menace while drinking your juice in the hood, which is like, it's meant to parody it.

I think Menace of Society is funnier than Don't Be a Menace.

Oh, that's funny.

So that's kind of, that's just my, like, my own, I guess, like,

the Wayne Brothers are hilarious, but I'm just saying, like, that's my.

I think succession is a comedy.

Succession is a comedy.

It's a comedy.

Sopranos is a comedy.

I'm talking to Brian God and like, you're doing a comedy.

He goes, I'm doing a comedy.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

Yeah, because exactly.

It's so fucking ridiculous.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's comedy to me.

We'll be back in a minute.

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That's really good water.

It's the kind of water that says, I have my life together.

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Smart water, for those with a taste for taste.

grab yours today

so i want to finish talking about your career and industry doing a sitcom on nbc and a special on hbo are obviously career goals for comics you signed an overall two-year deal with hbo in 2022 are you going to keep working for them how do what is success now for a comedian or comic because it's changed yeah yeah no you don't want to be the head of late night anymore yeah no no no i have no interest in that

but no one would have ever said that before yeah well i think i don't think think like like richard pryer never even rich pryer was at the peak of cars said that he would never have wanted to do that you know

uh i

to me i mean it's like the the it is just being able to make what you want to make

like you know i didn't do this because i wanted to just like work i wanted to do it because i had ideas that you wanted to get through yeah i have comedian friends who like do podcasts and they're like talking to other people about things i'm like man that seems exhausting

Looking like, you really be caring about what people be saying?

Like, I don't want to throw nobody on the bus, but you ever watch people do the yawn?

They're trying to swallow the yawn.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I'll be watching like just sleepy people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like talking to politicians, like, you don't give a fuck about this.

Like,

that seems exhausting.

Like, I'd rather make less money and not have to do that.

Whatever you want to make, wherever you can make it, is all you're interested in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love my relationship with HBO.

I'm thankful to have Nina Rosenstein, who has meant the

world to me and has understood me.

And I like gatekeeping.

Me too.

I like that HBO is a little bit smaller and that there are thoughtful people that are

filtering through something.

I think art should be gatekeeping.

With all the, well, they're breaking apart, for example.

These companies are disintegrating or breaking apart and being made smaller.

Yeah, you know, I don't know.

You kind of got to let it happen.

There's nothing I can do about the mergers and

them breaking apart.

You know, I got to have a YouTube show now yeah no no I mean if if I if I had an idea for one I would do it you know like and I'm I'm not I'm not against that but but it's just like

you know I'm just saying like and it and even my idea of HBO in some ways is like a little antique like they no they taste no no it's actually not they they still do they still have the shows that are

talked about in a way like you know for it's talk about rehearsal or even talk about white lotus you know, like these things that are like talked about in culture because it's thoughtful.

It's just thoughtful art.

I just want, like, you know, I want to work with thoughtful.

I've been lucky enough to be able to work with like thoughtful artists, people that really care, people that, people that have shame.

Yeah.

Like, if things aren't

beautiful.

And like, people that could be embarrassed.

But you don't care where you're working.

You don't feel the pull of having to do YouTube or TikTok or things like that.

No, and

if I were younger.

You're not old.

Well, I'm just saying, but I am at a, at a, at a place where I, I grew up thinking about art like this way, that you, you craft something and then you release it.

It's not about constant engagement because it dilutes the art.

So you're going, those kids are older kids.

Well, they're old.

You know what I'm saying?

You're right.

It's not about age because there are older comedians that I hear are guilty of this.

No, too, but just like comedians are just like, talk too much.

If my job is to talk to you for an hour, I can't talk to you

for five hours a week.

Right, that's right.

Yeah.

And then like,

it's going to get diluted.

That's just like math.

Yes, that's a fair point.

And so I just am a type of person.

You're right.

It's not an age thing.

I'm just a type of person that like, I would rather speak to you potently for an hour

and mean everything that I say.

So one of the couple more things.

Do you worry about streamers getting more conservative?

Obviously, a lot of these companies are paying off.

Paramount might pay off Trump.

ABC paid off Trump.

And so, but are you worried about more conservatism or

at all in the current political environment, which will change?

I'm probably more worried about it broad, like like more broadly, just like its effect, like

that there are like 19-year-olds that have the same rhetoric that I heard like 70-year-olds have.

Right.

Like that, like that's like a little like, oh, do you feel pressure to be in the manosphere?

Even though you like men,

there's so many manosphere comedians now.

Yeah, yeah, but many of whom aren't funny.

Yeah, but but any of whom aren't but but like that's what I'm saying.

Like, it is separating like anything that becomes a thing, like when you, if you are joining the manosphere, is over.

Yeah,

like it's over.

It's, it's already like, it's already, it's like seeing a star that's been dead long.

Like it's over.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, yeah, I just care about any individual voice, any individual interest in voice.

Like, you know, like, like, like, Theo Vaughn is funny.

Yeah.

Theo Vaughn was funny to me in 2013 at the comedy store.

It It was like, you know, I was like, yeah, he's funny.

He's always been funny.

Like, is he in the, I don't know.

Like, he's just.

You don't feel any pressure to go that direction.

No, no.

And I think feeling like, again, like,

yeah, I don't know.

There's a difference between like the artist and like the used car salesman.

Right, right.

You know, that's just like kind of following the trend and doing the thing.

Like, I don't know.

Going back to what Michelle said, you're not just a comedian.

You've been an executive producer, a producer, a director, a movie and television actor.

You've done reality shows, scripted shows.

Is there something you haven't done that you still want to do?

Obviously, not a podcast, as you said, you don't have enough interest and you will yawn at people.

I've been yawning

talking for hours.

Thank you for not yawning.

But thank you for not yawning during me.

You're not boring.

No, but I've been trying to remove hyphens.

Okay, multi-hyphen.

I don't want to be multi-hydrophobic.

I want to be really good at something.

I care about being really, really good at like if it's one thing oh to be so lucky now it's stand-up

i love going into a room with thoughts with a show with a performance a live show with people yeah yeah and but i'm also i i part of it is filming i've also i've always loved that i've always always loved how it's filmed and like that that medium of like capturing lightning in a bottle and

releasing it that that's always been exciting to me um so that's kind of all all a part of it it.

A part of it.

I love the entertainment industry.

I love it as an idea, but I don't need to wear multiple hats.

I don't need to be a director for the sake of, I don't need to be called, I don't need to be called anything.

Right.

Yeah.

Right.

So just your work is all which you want.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Last question.

Do you think you're the son your mother?

wanted you to be?

I think I'm the son she deserves.

Meaning.

Like that, like, I care deeply about her.

That, like, I think she, I think that is what she wanted.

She wanted to be a good mom.

I asked her once what her her dream was.

Like, did she have any dreams?

Did she have like a career aspiration or something that she wanted to do, she never got to do?

And she told me that

she always just wanted to be like a good mom.

She wanted two boys, which she got, and she wanted to love them and wanted them to love her.

And I do.

I love her.

I love her dearly.

And so that's what I'm going to say.

I think she got the.

She got what she wanted.

Yeah, yeah, I think so.

Well, good job, Cynthia.

Yeah,

she did all right.

Gerard, thank you so much.

I really appreciate it.

This has been a wonderful conversation.

It's really fun.

Thanks for having me.

On with Carris Wisher is produced by Christian Castro-Roussel, Kateri Yoakum, Megan Burney, Allison Rogers, and Kaylin Lynch.

Nishat Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts.

Special thanks to Skylar Mitchell.

Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics.

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We'll be back on Thursday with more.