Bernie Sanders on Beating Authoritarianism, Billionaires & AOC

You never know.

I might be the first 200-year-old member of the U.S.

Senate.

People are way ahead of you on that.

Hi, everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network.

This is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher.

My guest today is Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders.

The 84-year-old is the longest-serving independent in the history of Congress and the face face of the modern progressive movement.

After President Trump returned to the White House, he spent months traveling to red and blue states on his Fighting Oligarchy tour to rally voters.

He says the events drew bigger crowds than he saw during his two runs for president.

Sanders' new book, Fight Oligarchy, is an extension of that tour.

It's kind of a blueprint for how he thinks everyday Americans can push back against Trump, but also the deep-pocketed forces shaping our politics today.

I spoke to Senator Sanders on Saturday, a little more than an hour after he headlined the No Kings rally at the Capitol.

He brought up a lot of the same themes during his speech.

This moment is not just about one man's greed,

one man's corruption, or one man's contempt for the Constitution.

This is about a handful of the wealthiest people on earth who in their insatiable greed have hijacked our economy and our political system in order to enrich themselves at the expense of working families throughout this country.

Sanders is also getting involved early in next year's midterm elections.

He's already endorsed about a half a dozen progressive and independent candidates in some big races, like four Senate seats in Maine and Michigan.

It likely sets up some contentious primaries with candidates backed by Democratic leadership as the party tries to regain power in Trump's Washington.

All right, let's get into my conversation with Bernie Sanders.

Our expert question comes from historian and Harvard professor Jill Lapoor.

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Senator Bernie Sanders, thanks for coming on on.

My pleasure.

Thanks for having me.

You just came from the No Kings rally.

What did you think?

I was honored to be able to speak to the crowd.

And my understanding is that there were millions of people out all over this country in small towns, large cities, and maybe.

No one knows, there may have been more people out on the streets today than in any given day

in American history fighting for our democracy, fighting for a government that works for all of us and not just the few.

So kind of a historic day.

Absolutely.

But during the speech, you talked about some of the key moments in U.S.

history when justice won out, the Revolutionary War, the abolitionist movement, the fight for workers' rights, the right for women to vote, the civil rights movement.

In the context of those historic movements, some of which involve brutal struggles to win those rights, even war, how does this moment compare?

Well, it's hard to say.

I think all I can say is that we are living in an unprecedented moment in American history.

And the point of my going back throughout history is that when all of those struggles were taking place, you know, I'm not a historian, but, you know, you got back in the 1776, you had a ragtag army.

The British Empire was nothing to sneeze at.

These were really powerful guys.

And they say, you know what, we're tired of being taxed without having to say where our money is going.

We want our own freedom.

We want to be able to run our own lives.

I mean, the truth is that was quite an historic moment.

And then, you know, a few years later in 1789, these guys said, in a world that was run by monarchs, they said, you know what?

We're going to have a constitution and it's going to limit the power of any one individual.

Separation of powers, executive, judiciary, legislative branches.

and came up with some really incredible rhetoric.

Look, we all know what America was like in the 18th century, with slavery, with sexism, all that stuff.

But nonetheless, you know, these Thomas Jefferson, these guys, when nobody to laugh at, they were brilliant guys, courageous guys.

And then you look at the horror of slavery and all of that about, man, taking on the slave class, taking on these people in the South, they were enormously powerful.

And you got abolitionists saying, we got to end this moral stain on America.

And they fought and they won after a terrible, horrible civil war.

And the suffragettes, women went on hunger strikes to get the right to vote and to fight for women's rights and,

you know, gay movement and labor movement.

Black movement and the union movement, workers who killed, standing up to their bosses, fighting for decent wages and working conditions.

My point about it was, yeah, these are tough times in America, no question about it.

We've gone through tough times in the past when people have come together.

We win.

And that's what we've got to do now.

A lot of those had very violent parts of them, obviously.

And one of the things the GOP was trying to present in a really, you know, a very coordinated way that the marches today would be violent.

It was Hamas lovers.

It was, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

Talk about your observations of the march and why they did that.

What was their goal here?

Well, it's clear.

Look, as Trump and his friends try to take us to authoritarianism, What you have to do is strike fear in the American people.

And the fear is that there are groups out there.

You don't know who they are.

They're crazy people.

They're violent bands of people.

And I've got to send the military into Portland and to Chicago, to New York to save the American people, to bring about calmness and law and order.

And that's what they are trying to establish.

And the idea.

That you have the Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, talking about this is a day where people came out to hate America, when in fact millions of people came out because they love this country.

They appreciate so much the struggles that have gone on in the past to create the kind of nation that we are and to understand that we've got to continue that fight to protect American freedom and democracy

and justice.

So

fear is what these guys do.

What did you see, besides a lot of people wearing inflatable costumes?

What I saw from where I was standing up there, like it was zillions of people, you know, you know, in fact, when you're up there speaking, you say something and it doesn't get out to people to the end.

You know, it's so it was a huge crowd.

My understanding and talking to some of the police officers, it was a nonviolent crowd here in

Washington.

And I suspect that was largely the case all over

America.

Look, let's be clear.

What Trumpism is about is trying to instill fear in the American people to give him more and more power.

And what these guys are also trying to do in a horrible, horrible way is to divide us up.

You know, demagogues, Garrett, as I'm sure you know,

what demagogues always do is they come forward with a powerless minority.

You know, in Europe, it was the Jews, it was gypsies.

In this country, it was the gays, blacks, Latinos, the Irish for a while.

You know, you come up with a group of people and you blame them for everything that goes on, all the problems of society, rather than addressing the real crises facing your nation and addressing them intelligently.

And that's what they are trying to do.

They're trying to divide us up.

We're supposed to hate all of the undocumented people.

We're supposed to hate trans people.

You know, that's what we're supposed to hate, hate, hate.

And we're trying to do very much the opposite, bring people together around an agenda that works for all.

Do you think the march was a success?

And what's supposed to be the impact?

Besides really fantastic signs, you know, I don't know if you saw any, but I enjoyed Groper Cleveland.

I liked

MAGA Teresa,

all kinds of, they were really funny.

Some of them were super funny.

What do you think the result is, I guess?

The point is, the truth is, you know, does Donald Trump have political support?

He does.

Do many people, a majority of people, strongly disapprove of his presidency?

They do.

Is he popular?

No.

Does he have support?

Yeah.

And what they are trying to do, this is what Trump is, and these guys are smart.

I got to admit it.

They're good politicians.

What they are trying to do, and I touched on this a little bit in my remarks, is to say to ordinary people, hey, look, we got ICE agents breaking down doors.

We got U.S.

troops in Portland and Chicago.

We're powerful.

We are really powerful.

You got nothing.

Who are you?

We got Elon Musk.

We got all of the billionaires on our side.

We own the media.

Our people are buying elections.

You know, we, you know, you can't run against us because we have so much money.

And by the way, you know, you know, we control it all.

You're nothing.

Go home.

Who the hell do you think you are?

You want to protest?

Fine.

Doesn't matter.

We got all the power.

And what days

like today are about are showing that when we stand together, we have power.

We are the majority.

And one of the reasons, Carol, that at the end of my remarks, I talked about a positive vision, a very different vision than Trump has for America.

You know, he wants to divide us up.

I'm talking about

making sure that we have a political system not controlled by billionaires.

Is that a radical idea?

You know, I come from a small state in Vermont.

Every March, we have town meetings.

People come in their small towns, a thousand people town, you know, and they come out and they argue about how much they want to spend on the roads and how much they want to spend on education.

And they raise their hands and they vote.

And majority rules.

That's what I believe in.

I believe in in one person, one vote is what democracy is about, not billionaires buying elections.

And you know what?

If you're a conservative or Republican, if you're a progressive, you're a socialist, you're a Democrat, whatever you may be, that's what the overwhelming majority of the American people believe.

They don't believe that multi-billionaires like Trump and multi-billionaires in the Democratic Party should buy elections and on and on.

So when we bring people together around an agenda, you know what?

You do a poll.

Go out.

Say to the American people:

is our health care system working?

Overwhelmingly, no.

Everybody knows it's broken.

It's rigged by the insurance companies and the drug companies.

Do you think that health care is a human right?

We should do what every other major country does, guarantee health care to all people.

Of course, we should.

So it turns out that when you, you know, I'm not going to deny there are differences about abortion rights, about gun control, et cetera, et cetera.

But on many basic economic issues, you have...

a very strong majority of the American people coming together.

Now, you've had, we're going to get to the tech billionaires because that's my area of expertise, as you know.

I have had a consistent message for years about the problems that they were going to create back 10, 12 years ago.

You've had also a very consistent message for decades.

How are you evolving your messages?

How do you think about how you've evolved in thinking of it?

You did acknowledge they're good politicians, et cetera.

But is there something that's shifted for you,

noticing what has happened here, especially with these tech billionaires?

I think, obviously, you know, you got to evolve.

The world changes.

And if you don't change with the world, with the problems that exist today,

then I think you're missing the boat.

I think to me, I was at Trump's inauguration as U.S.

Senator for Vermont.

And actually, I got, for whatever reason, I got pushed into the front row.

So I was right there, a real keen observer.

And it really was quite amazing.

There's Trump a few feet away from me and right behind him, a few feet behind him is Musk, Bezos, and Zuckerberg.

And Sundar Pachai from Google, too.

Exactly.

Right.

So you have a, not only are these big tech guys, they are three of the wealthiest people in America.

And honest to God, what I was thinking about, I'm thinking about Abraham Lincoln being in Gettysburg a few days after the terrible, terrible battle,

where thousands of soldiers died fighting slavery and himself.

And Lincoln gets up there and he says, you know,

these people did not die in vain.

They died so that, so many words, we can have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

You know, really deep, profound statement of what this country should be about.

And I look at Trump and behind him

is a government very clearly of the billionaire class, by the billionaire class, and for the billionaire.

So to answer your question, I think what I see and what more and more Americans see is this unbelievable concentration of ownership and wealth right now.

I mean, you tell me, now the media doesn't talk about it, and very few of my colleagues talk about it.

You tell me,

is it vaguely acceptable in any stretch of the imagination that one man, Mr.

Musk, owns more wealth than the bottom 52% of American households?

Does anyone think that's sane?

That that's what American society should be about?

That's, by the way, what the book is about.

Yeah, so let's get into that.

There's a lot of overlap between no kings, rallies, and your book.

In it, you write, quote, we're we're now in a life and death struggle to preserve democracy and defeat authoritarianism, as you just noted.

The word oligarchy has been used more and more, that's for sure.

But very few had been worried about that.

I know I certainly warned Barack Obama about the tech billionaires and about their power and their influence.

But a lot of them aren't quite as worried as you are in this book, because even Barack Obama gave an interview with Mark Maron, and he said, I think we're going to be okay.

That's not really a riling cry for citizens.

I think we're going to be okay.

Talk a little bit about why you want to use this term oligarchy, which it is no kings, right?

Essentially.

You know why?

Because it's true.

Let's just take a step back.

You have unprecedented levels of income and wealth inequality today, correct?

Yes, there's the answer.

And again,

maybe I'm the only person in America who feels this way, but I do think it's insane that one person on his way to become a trillionaire owns the world wealth of the bottom 52% of American households.

Okay.

At the same time that 60% of our people are living paycheck to paycheck.

That is outrageous.

And just because CBS and NBC and Fox do not say it's outrageous doesn't make it not outrageous.

It is.

It's insane.

And that has got to be dealt with.

So you got oligarchy in the sense of massive income and wealth inequality.

You got oligarchy.

in the sense of more concentration of ownership in America.

So in sector after sector, you got got a handful of giant corporations controlling what is produced, the prices we pay, how they treat their workers.

You got three Wall Street firms, BlackRock, State Street, Vanguard, who themselves combined are major stockholders and 95%

of S ⁇ P corporations.

I think that's crazy.

So

they would say, we made this money.

We invented whatever.

I'm going to answer that.

Stay with that for a minute.

Let me continue the thing.

All right.

You talk about why are we an oligarchy?

All right.

So you got income and wealth inequality.

You got concentration of ownership.

You got media.

All right.

How do people get their information?

They turn on Fox.

They turn on NBC, CBS.

Who the hell owns those things?

Oh, let's go to the Internet.

Well, who the hell owns the Internet?

Social media.

Oh, my goodness.

Isn't it funny?

X, formerly Twitter, is owned by, oh, my God, Elon Musk.

Oh, well, I'm going to go to Demeta.

And that's Instagram and Facebook.

Oh, who owns that?

Oh, that's Mark Zuckerberg.

Who now owns

Twitch and the Washington Post?

Oh, my God, Jeff Bezos.

What a crazy world.

Mr.

Ellison now bought CBS.

Yeah, he's thinking of buying Warner.

And he's thinking of buying Warner, and he's thinking of buying CNN, right?

And TikTok.

So you got an incredible billionaire oligarch concentration of ownership in media.

And then last but not least, you tell me if we're in a democracy when you got Elon Musk spending $270 million to elect Donald Trump and billionaires in the Democratic Party spending huge amounts of money making sure that Kamala Harris doesn't stand up strongly for the working class of this country.

Add it all together.

You define.

Help me.

You're not hearing that much, right?

You're hearing like, we should do something about these billionaires.

But I want to get back to this issue.

You tell me.

Am I wrong in using the word oligarchy when you look at all those things?

I like no kings better, I'll be honest with you, because I think oligarchy is a fancy word but i get your point all right but here's my point very easy to talk about in russia yeah oh the russian oligarchs control their society right oh in saudi arabia you got a handful of zillionaires

well guess what it's the same damn thing in this country i agree with you i have been screaming about the the power of these people for years you know there's always been rich and poor in america no question and you always had bosses and corporations that were not very nice.

The Gilded Age, et cetera.

Gilded Age, Age, exactly.

But you got something different now.

You got in these guys, in Peter Thiel

and in Musk, and these other guys, they got a philosophy.

They really do.

And I talked about it a little bit in my remarks today.

They really do believe.

You know,

I mean, every corporation wants tax breaks.

Every corporation hates unions.

Fine, we're used to that.

These guys are different.

In fact, I think I was reading something the other day.

Peter Thiel was actually using the expression, Antichrist, antichrist, a religious term, if anybody suggests that these big tech guys should not have unlimited power, that you want to control them.

It's not that I disagree with you or you're wrong.

It's you're antichrist.

We are the kings.

I mean, it is kind of interesting, the similarity to what we had.

back in the 1770s where these kings really do think God gave them their power.

Right.

So when you think about using that, when they make the argument, well, we made it through our own means and this and that.

So

how dare you think about, you know, either you or Elizabeth Warren doing a tax on us.

It was our money.

This is a capitalist society.

Nobody makes it on their own.

You and I are chatting this.

There are a lot of people who develop the technology.

that we're using right now.

You have people, workers there.

I have my staff.

Nobody does it on their own.

Nobody goes to work if you're not on a road.

Nobody

gets information without zillions of people contributing.

Nobody makes it on their own.

They went to schools.

They had great teachers.

But it's a philosophy.

You can have a philosophy.

I get it.

That is their philosophy.

It's mine.

I don't give a damn about you.

It is mine.

I will do anything I want, and I don't want you.

to touch it.

That's one way of looking at the world.

That is Trumpism, a part of Trumpism.

And there's another way to look at the world and to say, you know what?

I'm a human being, you're a human being.

And to be human is not for me to say, I want it all and I don't give a damn about you and your family.

It's to say, you know what, we're in this together, you know, and I want you to care about

the problems my family has and I will care about the problems that your family has.

And we will work together to improve life for each other.

That there's a level of solidarity.

as human beings.

We share common dreams.

And I don't care about the color of your skin or where you were born.

You want your kids to have a good education and be healthy.

And that's what I want for my kids and grandchildren.

So we are looking at very strong philosophical differences.

We'll be back in a minute.

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Your rallies that you've been doing with Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to hundreds of thousands of people in both red and blue states.

You say the crowds were bigger than you saw when you're running for president.

We obviously don't have official numbers for today's Neil King's protests, but these are large protests.

Talk a little bit of how you translate that into actual sustained opposition.

I mean, I think it was striking to a lot of people of the crowds that you got.

What is the next step beyond that?

Well, let me just say it was striking because, you know, it's one thing, you're running for president of the United States, you go to Los Angeles, you're going to get a big crowd.

Nobody was running.

I'm not running for anything.

Alexandria was not running for anything.

Yet you had 36,000 people out in L.A., but it wasn't just L.A.

you had 20,000 people out in Salt Lake City, 12,000 people outside of Boise, Idaho, for God's sakes, 30,000 people out in Folsom, California, which is represented by a Republican congressman.

And what we saw, we keep, you know, I have a pretty good political organization and we keep tabs on these things.

So we know pretty much who comes to these rallies.

They sign up.

About half the people came were Bernie supporters.

Half the people were not.

And you know what?

There were a significant number of Republicans and a significant number of Independents who were there as well.

So the takeaway from all of that is that there are a lot of people, not just progressives,

but some Republicans, Independents, who are very concerned about the direction in which Trump is taking this country.

So, that said, you were very open about the ways you feel about the Democratic Party had failed voters, as you just noted, and the working class more broadly.

According to polling, the party has never been more unpopular, even though President Trump is also unpopular.

You said it's because the Democrats have abandoned politics that help working families,

but it's not like the Republicans have adopted those policies.

Yet, voters without colleges favored Trump, as you know, in 2024 by double digits.

There's a cultural component to MAGA's appeal that goes beyond policy.

Why is there that conundrum?

Is that they don't like either thing?

That's a great question.

That's a great question, Carl, that we don't talk about

enough.

Before I answer that question, let me tell you,

as part of our fighting oligarchy tours,

we just, you know, we went, we didn't just go to big cities and stuff.

I went to West Virginia, a state that I happen to to love, really just a working class state of very good, honest people.

We had a town hall meeting.

It wasn't attended by tens of thousands.

400 people came out.

And it was an incredibly moving experience to me.

You had working class people saying, you know what?

We don't have health care.

We got to go hours to find a dentist.

We got to go hours to find a specialist.

Kids are not getting the quality education they need to make it in today's world.

Decent, good people coming up, talking about what is going on in their state.

And while West Virginia, in fact, is poorer than many other states, you could say the same thing in Vermont than any other state in America.

So this is what I think.

I think that Trump wins, not because people who voted for him, working class people, believe in tax breaks for billionaires

or

throwing 15 million people off the health care they have.

Many of them will be Trump supporters.

That's not what they voted for him.

They voted for him because the Democratic Party has not given them an alternative vision.

And in West Virginia, the Democratic Party, for example, doesn't exist.

It's virtually non-existent.

So there is no alternative.

So your point is right.

What I have said over the years, and say it very loudly now,

is the Democratic Party has got to make a fundamental decision.

And that decision is, do you worry about your campaign contributions from AIPAC and from the other other billionaire super PACs?

Or do you come up with an agenda that speaks to the needs of the working class in this country?

If you come up with that agenda, you will win back many of the working class votes who are supporting Donald Trump, in my view.

So one of the things that Trump is actually good at is he normalizes racism by delivering it to me as entertainment, like hateful rhetoric, as show business, really.

How can the left strip away that disguise and make the harm visible instead of letting him smuggle bigotry in through humor and charm really carrot let's be clear and i'm glad you raised that you know trump before he was involved in politics was a very successful tv personality right

he got a top-rated show he was good he's a good entertainer and in many ways his administration is a reality presidential administration where you have really talented entertainers from Fox television who know how how to perform very well on TV.

That is what they do.

I'm kind of old-fashioned, and I think that the best way is to come forward with an agenda which speaks to the needs of working families.

So interestingly enough, you know, I was on a CNN the other day with Alexandra Casio-Cortez.

We did a town hall.

And of course, the Republicans, oh,

crazy, Bernie, lunatic, Bernie, all that stuff.

They attacked Alexandria.

So they sent out this long press release attacking me.

You know what they forgot to mention in their press release?

What?

Not one word about health care.

These guys do not want to defend

the big, beautiful bill, which threw 15 million people off the health care.

that they have, which studies indicate will result in the deaths of some 50,000 Americans every year.

They don't want to talk about that.

They don't want to.

In Vermont, just the other day, people started getting their insurance notices.

In Bennington, Vermont, you got a couple making $80,000,

going to pay a quadruple increase, quadruple in their health insurance.

Half of their income is going to go to

health care.

That's insane.

My Republican colleagues don't want to talk about that.

So what should Democrats do?

Talk about it every bloody minute of the day.

50,000 people will die unnecessarily when you throw 15 million people off the health care they have.

That's what you talk about.

People can't afford 50% of their income going to health care.

So one of the things you do is blame Democratic problems on billionaires, as you noted, and conservative influence they have on the party's policies and candidates.

As you just noted, wife Kamala Harris lost in 2024.

That said, their support for Democrats may be fleeting.

Salesforce CEO Mark Benioff, who previously donated Democrats, recently said he he wanted Trump to deploy the National Guard to San Francisco, although he's walked back those comments and seemingly

Mark Benioff.

He runs Salesforce.

Open AI CEO Sam Altman has donated money to hundreds of Democrats, and he criticized Trump for years.

Now he's partnering with him.

Democratic mega donor Barry Dillard told me he wants people to give Trump a positive spirit and he pushed back against what he called Trump derangement syndrome.

On the other hand, we've seen a lot of pushback from billionaires like Lorraine Powell Jobs, who owns The Atlantic, and Ron Conway, another very wealthy person, pushing back on Trump very hard and very vocally.

Do you think the Democratic established is coming around to your view, given the sharp heel turn we've seen from some of these formerly friendly tech billionaires?

I honestly, I don't stay up nights worrying

about

what billionaire.

But I do find it interesting, Cara.

It's

again, I'm not an expert on this thing.

I suspect you know more than I do.

But Mark Zuckerberg, I guess he loved Barack Obama.

They were pals, right?

And Jeff Bezos, a nice, moderate guy, Washington Post, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Musk, I think, if I'm not mistaken, voted for Obama in 2008, right?

So what you're seeing now is the billionaire class

going where the money is.

And Trump has, let's be honest, you're a billionaire.

Trump has been very generous and kind to you.

He repays his friends.

They help elect him.

they support him, and these guys are making out like bandits right now.

So, you know, it's fine if they're decent billionaires who understand

that we've got to fight to retain democracy.

God bless them.

That's great.

But the future of this country will not rest on a handful of billionaires.

It rests on working class people and the vast majority of our people standing up and fighting for justice and democracy.

But you did note that Elon Musk gave $250 million to help elect Donald Trump.

It probably helped quite a bit.

Should the Democratic Party be counting on wealthy donors anymore anymore to raise cash?

And what's the alternative?

No, the alternative is, look,

I mean, today millions and millions of people came out.

If you give those people and many who did not come out an agenda, a vision for the future, which says that in the richest country in the history of the world, it is not a radical idea to say that everybody should have a decent standard of living.

You tell me, in America, should we have the highest rate of childhood poverty of almost any major country?

Really?

In America?

Give people a vision, and you know what?

They'll trip in 25 or 50 bucks to help your campaign.

And you know what?

Money is important.

I'm a politician.

You don't need zillions of dollars to run a campaign.

You need a certain amount, and you can win.

But that is, and then, of course, ultimately, you've got to get rid of the Citizens United, which allows billionaires to buy elections.

So a heel turn on billionaires.

Say, just ignore it.

Just say, good for them.

If they want to contribute and play a role, that's fine.

I mean, I appreciate that.

I'm not, you know, there are a lot of decent people who happen to be billionaires.

They think that democracy and truth is important.

God bless them.

But the future of this country depends on working class people standing up and taking on the billionaire class, which is getting richer and richer.

Now, you tell me how it could be.

that with all of this new technology that we've seen in the last 50 years, and I want to talk about AI with you in a minute.

You know more about this stuff than I do.

But you tell me, how does it happen that over the last 50 years, an explosion in technology, worker productivity exploding, you got millions of workers who in real inflation accounted for wages are earning less than somebody in their place 50 years ago.

And what's going to happen with AI?

Yeah, well, we'll get to AI in a minute, but every episode we get a question from an outside expert.

Here's yours.

Hi, Senator Sanders.

This is Jillapore from Harvard.

Historically, most of the reforms that you endorse required pressure from third political parties, from the Free Soil Party to the People's Party, to the Progressive Party.

So I wonder whether it's really possible for the billionaire-funded Democratic Party to reform itself without pressure from a third political party.

And I guess another way of asking the same question is whether, in hindsight now, looking back,

Might it have been more useful for you to have spent the last half century building a third political party instead of caucusing with the Democrats.

Thanks very much.

Well, thank you for your question.

It's a good question.

And my answer is that

it is

right now what we are doing, I am doing with my coworkers,

are supporting candidates who are running as independents.

You don't want to run as a Democrat?

We are right now, Carol, working with literally thousands of people who are running.

We're helping them figure out how to run for school boards, city councils, state legislature, etc.

Many of them are running as progressive Democrats.

Many of them are running as independents outside of the Democratic Party.

Now, it's very easy to say, let's form a third party.

Well, it's a great idea.

And you have examples of it.

The Green Party is a third party.

Have they played an important role in modern American politics?

Maybe to some degree they have.

I would not say that they have been enormously successful.

I don't know what they get, 1%, 2% of the vote.

When I ran for president as an independent in the Democratic

party, I got millions and millions of votes and brought forth an agenda

that millions of people were nodding their heads.

And an agenda, I think, which has helped to some degree transform politics in America today.

Would I have been able to do that running as a third party?

So the idea about a third party is, I'm not dismissing it,

but it ain't easy.

You need a lot of money to do that.

You need to deal with some states who have very, very restrictive regulations.

The state of Vermont, you want to get a third party?

Pretty easy.

Other states, not so easy.

So the answer is where we are right now is I have made it clear.

I personally will support and am supporting candidates who are are running as independents outside of the Democratic Party.

And if people are wanting to run as independents, taking on conservative Democrats, establishment Democrats, I will be there, given the nature of the race.

But not a national political third party.

At this moment,

I think it's rather difficult.

And I think we are seeing momentum right now to transform

the Democratic Party, some great candidates around the country, et cetera, et cetera.

And when you talk about transform, one of the things that you run into all the time is Bernie Burroughs, who became Trump supporters.

Talk about how you feel about that heel turn, because they seem to be turning back again.

This is what I think.

What Trump,

and again,

I think Trump

has his mental issues.

I think he's unstable.

I think he's a pathological liar.

I think his agenda for America is horrific.

All right.

So let me be clear about that.

But he understands understands something that the Democratic establishment did not understand.

The system, Kara, is broken.

So

you go out.

How's America doing?

It's broken.

Healthcare system, broken and dysfunctional.

Childcare system, broken and dysfunctional.

Housing, who can afford to buy a house?

No young person can afford to buy a house.

Nutrition.

Our people are overweight.

They can't afford decent quality food.

Kids are doing drunk food.

All right.

On every basic level, the system is broken.

And Trump, in it, so many words, he doesn't use it that way.

He says, look, it's all broken.

And the reason for it's the undocumented people.

It's the trans people.

That's why it's broken.

Well, that's crazy stuff.

But he understands the system is broken.

And what does the democratic establishment say?

Well,

You know, I think if you make $48,392, we will be able to provide you with a program that gets you 14% help on

your health care.

Is that your voice of a Democratic Party?

In other words, they are tinkering around the edges.

Everybody in America knows the health care system is broken.

There are 47 members of the Democratic caucus.

I got 15 or 16 of them on a Medicare for all system.

Why?

Everybody knows that we have massive wealth and income inequality.

How many Democrats have the guts to say, you know what?

Maybe Mr.

Musk and Bezos should stop paying their fair share of taxes.

So these guys tinker around the issues.

They want to do a little bit.

And in 14 years, we're going to be successful.

That's not what the American people want to hear.

So Trump is tough.

I'm going out there.

The system is broken.

I'm sending ICE agents over there.

The military is going there.

I'm doing this.

I'm bringing these guys in.

And people respond to that.

Democrats got to be tough too.

But they have got to take on not poor, undocumented people, most of them work at a hard share.

They got to take on the goddamn oligarchy.

That's what they got to do.

We'll be back in a minute.

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So let's then talk about a lot of news items that that are in this oligarchic area.

As you notice, you just mentioned AI.

We'll start with AI.

So you're proposing a robot tax that would increase taxes on corporations that use AI to eliminate jobs.

I just did an interview on the future of work of AI, and my guests pointed out that it would be incredibly difficult to assess what counts as an AI-related job loss since it's going to be incorporated into everything.

It's like sort of like electricity.

So talk about the practical implementation of a robot tax and how do you think it should work.

Well, look, a robot tax is one of the visions.

And again, I don't want to claim to be an expert.

All right.

But this is what I, please, you know more about this than I do.

You correct me if I'm wrong here, okay?

My understanding, which is right, is that the Musks, the Zuckerbergs, the Bezos,

the

Ellisons of the world are putting many, many hundreds of billions of dollars into AI and robotics.

Is that correct?

Yes, indeed.

Okay.

So the question that we want to ask ourselves is, okay, why are they doing that?

Are they doing that to benefit the working families of America?

No.

Well, you know what?

Between you and me, I don't think so.

I think the reason they're doing it is they see wonderful opportunities to become even richer and more powerful.

Okay, that's my view.

Should the American people and their elected representatives begin to stand up to that?

The answer is yes.

Now, one of the, when you talk about AI, and again, I bow to you, I have more knowledge in this stuff than I do.

Certainly one of the immediate things is the people that I talk to, and I've talked to some people who know a lot about this, is they worry that many, many

millions of entry-level jobs, of factory jobs, will disappear.

Do you agree?

Well, it's both robotics and AI together.

Robotics doesn't get as much attention, but

the numbers are huge in terms of improvements.

Right.

And we're just beginning to see robotics in this country.

China is way ahead of us.

So for a start, it's insane for the elected officials of this country to say, whoa, wait a second.

You know, what the hell is going to happen when millions of people no longer have a job?

All right.

So I came up with some proposals.

You know, I think attacks on robots is one.

I'll tell you what I think is even more important.

And that is if

robotics and AI is going to increase worker productivity, which it certainly will, right?

Absolutely.

The benefits should not simply go to Mr.

Musk and his friends.

They should benefit ordinary people in this country.

What does that mean?

It means radical idea.

You know, the 40-hour work week was established, I think, in the 1940s.

You know what?

Maybe it's time to do what companies and some countries are beginning to do, lower the work week from 40 hours a week to 32 hours a week without loss of pay.

Okay.

Maybe that is a proper resource.

Maybe we should be thinking now of giving workers more power over the companies that they work, a worker ownership of companies in large corporations, getting workers and their unions on

the boards of directors, etc.

But I think I don't have all the answers to this, but I do think that this is a

incredibly transformative and potentially destructive moment for working families, and we've got to respond aggressively.

Not just working families and upper middle class.

That's right.

Okay.

And then, you know, I'm just talking about the economy.

And then you go to, look, again, you know, you go to the mental health issue.

I mean, we have kids who spend their lives.

on the internet and their best friends are somebody in a chat box.

What are the implications of that for humanity in general?

If my best friend is somebody on a chat box, really,

if I don't interact with other human beings, what the hell is that about?

What kind of society do we live in?

So thus far, Congress has done nothing, I would say, not less than nothing.

In fact, giving them all kinds of gimme.

Yes, I agree.

How do you begin to pass anything?

I mean, Senator Klobuchar has tried.

Senator Warner has tried.

these are these never go anywhere

look this gets back to

the basic issue that i you know i talk about all the time it's not just uh ai and robotics it's not just health care it's not just that we have a federal minimum wage of seven and a quarter an hour not just that we're the only major country not to guarantee health care at all it gets back to the nature of our political system.

So does anybody out there really think

that the

United States Congress in its totality is standing up and worrying about the working class, the middle class of this country, the future of America, our young people?

Or are they more worried about getting campaign contributions from wealthy individuals?

They certainly have tried, though.

Was that not genuine?

Because those bills just died.

No, of course not.

Look, I don't, there are serious people.

do not hear me to say otherwise.

Why don't they pass?

Because they get paid off.

The others who have to vote get paid off.

So how do you break that log jam?

Well, for a start, you rally the American people to get rid of the Citizens United Supreme Court decision, which allows billionaires to buy elections.

If billionaires were not able to buy elections, you know how much time my colleagues spend raising money?

A lot.

Half of their lives are raising money.

It's pathetic.

They feel it's pathetic.

You know, wouldn't it be kind of nice if we had a Congress that was responsive to the people back home, not spending their life raising money from wealthy people so they could address the real issues facing their constituents.

So we need a political revolution in this country if you're going to deal with the looming or the existing

crisis that we're going to face from AI and other issues.

For speaking, that conservative justice in the Supreme Court appear to be ready to finish gutting the Voting Rights Act.

They may strike down the section that is guaranteed majority-minority districts.

The New York Times analysis says that decision could strip Democrats around a dozen districts in the South, coupled with the gerrymandering fight right now, redistricting.

We're facing the possibility of Republicans cementing control of the House.

If that happens, what's the strategy?

How do you overcome this, which would be a major structural disadvantage?

Look, it gets back to, you know,

maybe the beginning of this discussion.

These are very disturbing and difficult times in American history.

And at the end of the day, the only way out.

is going to be with millions of people, and we saw it today as a good start, standing up in every possible possible way, fighting back to protect American democracy and the needs of working families.

So when you if they do cement that, what is the

there is no alternative, is there?

Well, there are alternatives.

You know, if the American people are rallied, there are, you know, there are,

you know, the civil rights movement, remember,

Dr.

King and the others had to take on the racist governors

who controlled

their police, and they ended up winning because they spoke to the moral

sense of the American people, and they made it impossible for that type of segregation and racism to continue to exist.

Can we do the same?

Yeah, I mean, we'll have to develop the tools as we go along.

So we've seen Trump escalating his troop deployments.

The DOJ also brought its first Antifa terrorism charges against two Texas men who've seen indictments of former FBI Director James Comey and New York Attorney General Letish James, also Trump's former National Security Advisor John Bolton, though the case started during former President Biden's term and has a support of career prosecutors.

Taken together, they don't feel like the actions of someone who believes the movement will be out of power in three years.

How close do you think Trump is to succeeding at that?

I mean, if you're fighting oligarchy, he's the ultimate oligarch, right?

Correct?

Yeah, he is a representative of the oligarchs.

Look, on the other hand, what we are seeing today, I don't have the numbers in front of me, is maybe more people coming out in rallies against oligarchy, against authoritarianism that we've ever seen in American history.

I can tell you that they're in the House of Representatives, doesn't get a lot of attention.

It's not just Alexandria Casio-Cortez.

There is dozens of other strong, young, often people of color, progressives who are taking on the oligarchy back home.

I can tell you that there are thousands of people running for office at the local level.

So we're seeing a lot of very positive things happen in this country.

But,

I share your concern that what we are taking on is a very dangerous president and a dangerous moment in American history.

I'm curious why you don't seem to want to talk about Trump maybe trying to stay in power.

Do you think that's a threat or not?

Look, who knows what Trump will do?

He is an authoritarian.

He is a demagogue.

Clearly, we know by forcing, getting his states to gerrymander their congressional districts, he wants to stay in power.

Another example,

a woman from Arizona, Adelita.

Yeah, they won't seat her.

Yeah, he won't seat her.

I mean, she will get seated.

Waiting, delaying that, perhaps because of the Epstein files.

Look, there's no magical formula.

The bottom line here is that we have got to mobilize at the grassroots level.

Today was a great start.

We've got to strengthen the trade union movement.

We've got to get young people.

working class people, senior citizens to begin to stand up and fight for the country that we can't become.

So let's turn quickly to the government shutdown, which is now in its third week.

Speaking on MSNBC on Wednesday, Senate Majority Leader John Thune said that he offered Democrats a vote on extending Obamacare subsidies the party is demanding in order to reopen the government.

You're not a Democrat, as you said, but you caucus with them.

What specifically do you and others need to see from the Republicans to end the shutdown?

I know you.

First of all, a vote.

What does a vote mean?

It's not only a vote, and then what happens in the House, and the president can veto all this stuff.

What, to my mind, and I think the minds of most Americans, this shutdown is about is the possible collapse of our current health care system.

I do not know how any member of the U.S.

Congress can vote to throw 15 million people off of their health care and, according to studies, allow 50,000 Americans to die unnecessarily every year.

I don't know how when people are struggling right now, we could allow people to see a doubling or a tripling of their health care premiums.

So to me, that is what the shutdown is about.

And when Republicans, and Republicans don't want to talk about those issues,

and that tells me that they are afraid.

It tells me that we are winning this.

It tells me we got to keep talking about it.

When they come to the table and say, all right, we're not going to let 50,000 people a year die unnecessarily.

We're not going to double premiums.

Let's get moving.

The House will pass it.

Senate

president has promised he will sign it.

That's when it ends.

Now, some of the things Senator Minority Leader Chuck Schumer warned about when he voted to keep the government open earlier this year are playing out.

Trump is consolidating power.

The administration is pushing for more mass layoffs, so the federal judge has blocked them for now.

The president has held billions of projects, largely Democratic districts.

Even if you manage to force Republics to extend the health care subsidies and permanently, Are you worried about the risks in getting this, or is this still the right strategy?

What do you mean, the risks in getting it?

Does all the things the Republicans consolidating power even more worth the health care subsidies themselves?

Look, they would do that.

But do you think Trump needs a shutdown to lay off?

We went through Doge.

They don't particularly worry about the Constitution.

They don't worry about the law.

They will do what they want to do for their own political purposes and their own economic purposes.

But I think right now, let me just mention to people who may not know this, the essence of what's going on right now in the shutdown is you got majority rule in the House.

They pass their budget.

In the Senate, you need 60 votes.

That's what has been the case for a very long time.

And what that is about, it requires, it means that there must be bipartisan negotiations.

That's what it means.

Republicans up to this point have refused to negotiate.

What they have said is our way or the highway.

Take it or leave it.

And what Democrats are saying, appropriately so, sorry, that ain't good enough.

You're going to have to sit down with us.

These are our demands, and you're going to have to meet them if you want our support.

And where do you think it will end up?

And you think sticking with it is the best course of action?

I think so.

I think that when people get notices that their health insurance premiums, which are already sky-high,

unaffordable, are going to go up by double, triple.

I think my Republican colleagues are going to say, okay, enough is enough.

We can't go home and defend that.

Let's negotiate something.

And so, but you and Representative Cortez says you're not going to take a pinky promise.

It has to have passed legislation signed by the president.

Oh, absolutely.

Look,

these guys lie all the time.

Yeah, so that would be an extension or permanently extended?

I think it should be permanently extended.

Look, and by the way, having said that, I'm not a great fan of the ACA, the Affordable Care Act.

Before Trump, to be honest, the health care system was broken.

We paid the highest prices in the world.

We need to do what every other major country does, and that is a Medicare for All system.

That seems far away.

But so, this is what you'll accept right now.

Yeah, right now.

Yeah, yes.

That's a progressive stance, Medicare for All.

Let's talk about the modern progressive movement.

As I noted, you and Representative Ocasio-Cortez

joined you at many of these fighting oligarchy rallies.

Is she your heir apparent?

Or

can you explain this relationship for people?

I mean, it's adorable.

Adorable.

Well, look, she is, I think, an outstanding person.

I think she is really, really smart.

I think in the best sense of the word, she's a great politician.

I know she was up in Vermont a few years ago.

We had breakfast together at a restaurant.

People come out over there.

And her smile, the way she greets people, it's genuine.

She's real.

She's a real person.

And I think

people see that.

But there are other great people in the House of Representatives who are doing a great job as well.

So I don't have any heir appearance.

She is just doing great.

But there are many, many others out there who are fighting the right fight as well.

Well, she is on your tour, though.

I don't see others.

She was on my tour.

Yeah.

So one of the things

that's important to think about is what's coming next in the Democratic Party.

And there are all these interesting races like with Graham Plattner in Maine.

A few days ago, the state's two-term senator, Democratic governor, Janet Mills, announced she's running for Senate and setting setting up a tough primary.

What do you think if you had to pick it, there's all these different people like Plattner and others, that means for the 2026 elections and then the 2028 elections, if it's going to be built around a progressive agenda?

I think what you're seeing, I mean, for example, it was interesting to me that more and more establishment Democrats saying, you know what, I don't want any eight-pack money.

All right.

That's interesting because they are understanding that the American people have been disgusted with billions of U.S.

dollars going to Netanyahu to starve children in Gaza.

So they're catching on.

I think what you're seeing in Michigan with Abdul El-Saed,

you're seeing it in Nebraska with Dan Osborne, you're seeing it in Texas

with some strong candidates, James

Tallrico.

and others and congressional candidates as well.

You're seeing working class candidates coming up who I think are resonating with,

you know,

people like them

in their willingness to take on big money and fight for an agenda that works for working families.

And I think that is fairly transformational.

We're beginning to see some really fundamental changes in the nature of the Democratic Party.

All right, my last question.

You're 84 years old right now.

You told Politico that your current term, which ends in 2030, will likely be your last, but you also filed papers to run again in 2030.

Do you feel like there's enough of this movement that you've instilled, whether it's AOC, whether it's Mamdani, someone like Texas Congressman Greg Kassar, when do you imagine you'll be able to say, okay, they've got it from here?

Or where do you think of yourself?

Well, they have it already.

It's not a question.

You know, Mom Dani is.

So what about for yourself?

I don't think you're going to be a 200-year-old candidate.

You don't think so?

No.

I would advise against it.

I try to do unprecedented things.

You are suggesting that I'm not going to be a 200-year-old senator.

See?

People are always doubting, doubting, doubting.

I don't know.

All right.

Anyhow, look, it's not me.

Okay.

I do my thing.

I am really proud of the campaign Mamdani is running in New York, a brilliant campaign, grassroots campaign, talking about the right issues, what Alexandria is doing, what Greg of Texas is doing, what great candidates all over the country are doing.

For as long as I can do it, I'm going to play my role.

I grew up in a three-and-a-half-room rent-controlled controlled apartment in New York City.

Okay.

I am from the working class of this country.

Those are my people.

And I hope to God I never forget where I came from.

So I'm going to continue that fight for as long as I can.

All right.

Thank you so much, Senator Sanders.

Thank you very much.

Take care.

Today's show was produced by Christian Castro-Rossel, Kateri Yoakum, Michelle Aloy, Megan Burney, Kaylin Lynch, and Devin Schwartz.

Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts.

Special thanks to Rosemary Ho and Catherine Barner.

Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics.

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Car, Vana.

Pick up these mamply.

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I have sat around that table at NATO.

There is an incoming missile attack now.

Could you answer the question?

I'm sorry, we've got very little time left.

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I can't promise we'll have a cocktail every time, but we'll try.

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