Wicked’s Cynthia Erivo on Defying Gravity, the Attack on Diversity and (Maybe) Getting an EGOT

Speaker 1 She seems frozen.

Speaker 2 Me frozen?

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're frozen. Yeah, that's a different movie.

Speaker 1 Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is on with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher.

Speaker 1 My guest today is singer, actor, producer Cynthia Arrivo, also known as Elphaba, the star of Wicked, also known as one of the hottest multi-talents in Hollywood right now. I love Wicked.

Speaker 1 I talk about it all the time. I saw it when it was first on Broadway.
I thought they did a spectacular version on the screen. It's making a ton of money.
It's a great business.

Speaker 1 And at the dead hot center of it is Cynthia Arrivo, who is just memorable and spectacular in the role she's playing. Her rise to wicked fame seems meteoric if you haven't been paying attention.

Speaker 1 She's been a name in the musical world since her Broadway debut as Seely in the 2015 revival of The Color Purple, which I also saw. She blew away the audience.

Speaker 1 She, of course, won a Tony for that performance in 2016 and a Grammy and a Daytime Emmy in 2017. So if you're keeping track, she's just an O short of an egot.

Speaker 1 Arrivo almost landed that Oscar in 2020 when she got two nominations for playing Harriet Tubman in Harriet, one for Best Actress and the other for Best Original Song.

Speaker 1 Arrivo co-wrote and performed this film's anthem, Stand Up, and she's got another shot at best actress and the egot for her role is Alphabet and Wicked.

Speaker 1 Don't tell anybody, but I'm voting for her, not that I can vote. It's an interesting role, of course, in what is obviously a crazy time.

Speaker 1 It's about someone who's the other, who's left out, who is persecuted, who is subject to misinformation. Does that sound like any country right now in this world?

Speaker 1 It sounds like the United States of America. And she is, in a lot of ways, the resistance, the idea that you can be different and still be worthwhile.

Speaker 1 You know, it's really kind of interesting that it's making a lot of money and is one of the top-grossing films of the year when we're in the midst of what seems like a huge cultural meltdown on those issues.

Speaker 1 Rivo has been very open about how she sees the role, especially as a queer black woman, a British citizen from Nigerian parents. So, I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

Speaker 1 I'm just a fan, so is my daughter, Clara,

Speaker 1 about art, imitating life, imitating art, and more. stay with us

Speaker 1 support for on with carrot swisher comes from sax fifth avenue saxford avenue makes it easy to holiday your way whether it's finding the right gift or the right outfit Saks is where you can find everything from a lovely silk scarf from Saint Laurent for your mother or a chic leather jacket from Prada to complete your cold weather wardrobe and if you don't know where to start sax.com is customized to your personal style so you can save time shopping and spend more time just enjoying the holidays.

Speaker 1 Make shopping fun and easy this season and get gifts and inspiration to suit your holiday style at Saks Fifth Avenue.

Speaker 1 Cynthia, welcome. Thanks for being on On.
Thank you for having me, Kara. So let's just start first with Wicca.
There's a lot I want to talk to you about,

Speaker 1 artists, singing, Hollywood, etc. Though I am a lesbian, I will not be talking about holding your space because I'm not that lesbian.
lesbian. Thank you.

Speaker 1 So, if you don't mind, I just

Speaker 1 start from there.

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 1 let's start with Wicked, though.

Speaker 1 I took my daughter. I have four kids.
I took my, I only have one daughter, but I took her and loved it, by the way. And she adores you and Ariana Grande and had a wonderful time.

Speaker 1 And my son, my little son, wants to watch it too now.

Speaker 1 I'm just curious, where was the first time you saw the musical? I think you were in your 20s. Is that correct?

Speaker 2 I was 25 and I saw it in London. I took myself on a solo date.

Speaker 2 I knew the music before I knew the show.

Speaker 2 So after having learned music, after leaving drum school and essentially being able to afford tickets to go and see the music, I took myself to see Wicked for my birthday.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And just what did you think at the time? I saw it when it first was on Broadway, actually.
Yeah. When it was first there, like 25 years ago.

Speaker 2 I don't know why, but it really moved me. I came away from it.
I couldn't stop thinking about it. I think it was particularly that character, Alphabet.

Speaker 2 I think maybe seeing the songs in situ

Speaker 2 sort of

Speaker 2 woke something up in my brain. It was just the first time I'd seen a story about,

Speaker 2 one,

Speaker 2 two women in a relationship, because that's not... never a story that you see.
And then two, about a person who just doesn't fit, on top of which it was to do with her skin color.

Speaker 2 So I just was just sort of

Speaker 2 taken by it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I interviewed a wicked director, John Chu, back in November, and he talked about how much he valued input from both you and Ariana Grande in the choreography for the OSDES Ballroom, for example.

Speaker 1 Obviously, that dance he said was all you and how you did it and how you wanted it done.

Speaker 1 Have me think about the experience of that kind of artistic collaboration, how you choose the things you want to work on.

Speaker 2 I love it. I think it's it's

Speaker 2 kind of important. I think something happens when a director trusts an actor.
And that's not to say that everyone,

Speaker 2 you always have to have your input. That's not to say that.
It's just that

Speaker 2 when your director trusts that you know when it's necessary or they trust that what you have to say

Speaker 2 will

Speaker 2 enhance something.

Speaker 2 for some reason it there's an element of freedom within that because you immediately know that you're trusted.

Speaker 2 So you can play a little more, you can make mistakes and try again and try things over and over. And I think because John sort of gave me a little bit of room to play and to

Speaker 2 influence the way she looked and the way she moved, it meant that I could really own her as the character for myself.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 I could speak for her when we were discussing things or actually, I think Alphabet might do this, or she might speak up for herself in this moment, or she might actually just be really quiet here.

Speaker 2 And it meant that we had this ongoing, growing, creative relationship, not just for the piece as a whole, but for the small, tiny, minute details that each person might have.

Speaker 2 And particularly for me, I'm a details.

Speaker 2 girl i like all of the little the if i can find out why does she have these two rings or can she have an earring or can she is it necessary for her to have jewelry or can can she dress like this in a certain way can this be more tailored and can she wear her hair like this and if she wore glasses they would be like this and those little tiny things that make the character uh three-dimensional as opposed to a 2d picture that you see i think those things bring it to life not just for the people watching but for me now this person is real and human you know so in that scene for example i think you're going for dignity right in the face of mockery presumably yeah and and how you move the hat and put it on and affixed it i i love he was talking about the dance and how you held it in different spots uh was critically important to that scene because it was painful to watch and yet also dignified and weird yeah because i i When I had gone in to start rehearsing for the dance, there was already a dance that had been choreographed by Christopher Scott and Comfort Fedoku.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it was really lovely.

Speaker 2 it just didn't feel like the language she spoke so I asked if it was possible for us to sort of go back to the drawing board and begin again and create something that felt more like her um and Christopher and Comfort kindly said yes so we started figuring out how she moved and instead of it being sort of a moment for laughter.

Speaker 2 It wasn't that I was wanted to take the laughter out. It's just that I wanted to make sure that there was a reason for her to do this dance.
So she took that hat off.

Speaker 2 What in that dance makes her put it back on? This hat is

Speaker 2 the source of embarrassment and shame, then why would she put it back on again? And if she's standing in the middle of the circle, why does she not just walk out? Why does she stay to do this dance?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 for me, I felt like that dance was a sort of reclamation of the room she was in and

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 take back

Speaker 2 the

Speaker 2 way in which people would scorn her. So, if you can scorn me, but I know I'm supposed to be here, so I'm going to own this space right here, even though you would have me not be here.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was a pivot moment in the movie. It absolutely was a pivot.

Speaker 2 It's like a moment where she stops trying to appease people and just be honest

Speaker 2 herself.

Speaker 2 I'll be alone, and I'll be okay with being alone.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 we figured out how

Speaker 2 that would work.

Speaker 2 And I felt like this was maybe the beginning of a spell, like maybe the first time she tries to conjure something, which is why if you put power into this hat, which becomes the emblem of the wicked witch, there's a reason to put it back on.

Speaker 2 Sort of, we wash away what that hat was, the embarrassment of it, the way people see her in it, and we make it something that is imbued with power and magic.

Speaker 2 And there's a pride in wearing it.

Speaker 1 Because until then, one of the obvious themes is an outsider and being invisible to the mainstream or mocked if you're noticed, right?

Speaker 1 One of the things you did was, I know it sounds crazy, I watched it again the other night, but you looked down a lot in the movie with your eyes, but it's not looked down in shame, it's sort of looked down in defiance, which was interesting.

Speaker 1 And I, maybe you weren't, maybe that was just me reading into it, but I i want to talk about the what was the mood you were going for for this character um i don't think i was trying to hide i actually think she

Speaker 2 it's defense it's like getting there before everybody else does there is defiance in it in that she is not trying to hide herself from anyone it and it's uh resistance against what people would have other people believe about you.

Speaker 2 I don't believe this about myself. If you believe it, that's fine, but I don't believe this.

Speaker 2 And I think it's so interesting because I do think that there's a slight weariness in Alpha Girl because it's sort of something that she's known her whole life.

Speaker 2 Constant mockery, the constant making fun of her.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're waiting for the hit.

Speaker 2 She's always like waiting for it's like a quiet anxiety that someone's going to say something all the time.

Speaker 2 She tries to get there just before someone does say something.

Speaker 2 But also,

Speaker 2 I wanted her to have a little joy. I really

Speaker 2 wanted her to have hope

Speaker 2 because you can't get to the uncomfortability and the heartbreak of the USDA scene if there isn't hope beforehand. If she's already in that space, if she's already in the hut, given up, yeah.

Speaker 2 If she's already given up, then what's the point in her even turning up to the USDOS ballroom? What's the point in her even putting that hat on and leaving her dorm room to get there?

Speaker 2 What's the point of it? even staying at Shiz if she's if she truly believes that she can't do the things that she wants to. And so

Speaker 2 I really wanted to sort of

Speaker 2 build her up to take the rug out from underneath her almost, you know.

Speaker 1 Obviously, the wizard and I, you know, that's, that's, that's a sunny, hopeful song.

Speaker 2 And it wants to be filled with like hope and joy and laughter and like

Speaker 2 cheekiness and funniness and all those things that sort of start to slip away from her.

Speaker 2 And the moment you think it's not going to happen again after the Osdas, you get that back again and then it's ripped out from underneath her again.

Speaker 2 Like the capacity for her to believe that anything's possible still exists.

Speaker 2 And I really wanted that for this character because I knew that the fall is much harder and the fall is a much further fall to have.

Speaker 1 Which is, of course, flying, actually.

Speaker 1 John and I talked about the huge undertaking, the scene, Defying Gravity, obviously the last and

Speaker 1 probably most critical scene, although I do think that ballroom scene to me was the most critical scene for me, at least. Let's have a listen to what he said about this scene.

Speaker 3 Defying Gravity was probably the hardest thing I've ever shot in my life because

Speaker 3 it required all departments. It required our sets when we're building it.

Speaker 3 We had like three different sections.

Speaker 1 We had the

Speaker 3 actual bottom with the staircase spinning up.

Speaker 3 We had the top and then we had to have another top for the outside because we needed room for the rigging because she was actually going to be all flown around and singing live.

Speaker 3 So you can't do this if you don't have Cynthia Rivo.

Speaker 1 So talk a little bit about that scene.

Speaker 2 I feel like Defying Gravity, literally, even though it has a word in it, is the ultimate defiance. It's the one time that she gets to proclaim that she is done with meeting people's expectations.

Speaker 2 She is done with listening to what people say she can and cannot do, and is deciding to take on the hardest thing,

Speaker 2 but it not because of anyone else, but because she sort of realizes that the only one that can do this for her is her. The only one that she's seeking really acceptance from is herself.

Speaker 2 And I knew how physically tasking it would be. I knew that singing and flying would be difficult, but I just

Speaker 2 didn't care how hard it was going to be because I really felt like experiencing it all helped me to understand

Speaker 2 what it actually felt like to fly and finding a way to make the sound made me feel really powerful.

Speaker 2 You have to sort of conjure up that power in other places as opposed to getting it from

Speaker 2 your diaphragm where you have to breathe or getting it from a full lung capacity. You actually have to engage your entire body to make the sound.

Speaker 2 And it means that you you immediately have to make different choices than if you were just standing on the ground. And I wouldn't have changed that for the world.
I knew I was up for the challenge.

Speaker 2 And that challenge kind of started when we got there because I needed to know what it was to fly in a harness that way, to do those sort of big, vast

Speaker 2 tricks and stunts, the flying around the perimeter, the loop-de-loop and the backflips, all of those things whilst making sound.

Speaker 2 And all of that training sort of came beforehand before we could even get to the set.

Speaker 2 But I just, I was really prepared to do it, to be be honest.

Speaker 1 It works a lot better because your reactions are what, you know, because you're singing it.

Speaker 1 There. Yeah, because you could, it's hard to fake that.

Speaker 1 Wicked fans were super quick to pick up on your note change in the last line of the song, the quote-unquote war cry that every Alphabet scene leads kind of makes her own.

Speaker 1 Talk about how you landed your version that's in the movie.

Speaker 2 Well, originally, I was doing it Bible, so I was doing what was written, which is what Edina did. And when we started to record the practice comps, Stephen Aramis and Stephen Schwartz

Speaker 2 said, now you do your own.

Speaker 2 That's great. Thank you for doing the Bible.
What's your war cry? What does your war cry sound like? And

Speaker 2 I tried a couple and

Speaker 2 then I just sort of let go and

Speaker 2 And that came out. And when it came out, when that sound came out, when those succession of notes came out, it just felt right.
It wasn't necessarily a sort of cerebral, thoughtful

Speaker 2 choice. It just

Speaker 2 happened.

Speaker 2 We were rehearsing, we were recording it, and I tried something.

Speaker 2 The first thing didn't quite feel right. And I tried something else that didn't quite feel right.
And then I landed on this and it felt really right.

Speaker 1 What was right about it?

Speaker 2 I don't know. It felt really guttural.
You know, I mean, it felt connected and it did feel like a war cry

Speaker 2 for me and I and I and I sort of it sort of stuck I don't know there's a there's a feeling you get when it's when it's right and and that's what I was looking for and it came with that yeah

Speaker 2 we'll be back in a minute

Speaker 4 In business, they say you can have better, cheaper, or faster, but you only get to pick two. What if you could have all three at the same time?

Speaker 4 That's exactly what Cohere, Thomson Reuters, and Specialized Bikes have since they upgraded to the next generation of the cloud, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure.

Speaker 4 OCI is the blazing fast platform for your infrastructure, database, application development, and AI needs, where you can run any workload in a high availability, consistently high performance environment, and spend less than you would with other clouds.

Speaker 4 How is it faster? OCI's block storage gives you more operations per second. Cheaper? OCI costs up to 50% less for compute, 70% less for storage, and 80% less for networking.
Better?

Speaker 4 In test after test, OCI customers report lower latency and higher bandwidth versus other clouds. This is the cloud built for AI and all your biggest workloads.

Speaker 4 Right now, with zero commitment, try OCI for free. Head to oracle.com/slash Vox.
That's oracle.com/slash Vox.

Speaker 1 So you've done this massive tour to promote the movie, often with Ariana Grande. Obviously, you've created moment after moment after.
I'm not going to get into all of them because there's so many.

Speaker 1 But the numbers, obviously, it's paying off because the numbers are huge. This is one of the biggest grossing movies this year.

Speaker 1 And now you have the Oscars. Now, the issue is blockbusters almost never win, especially when they're helmed by women and women are the main actors.

Speaker 1 I was thinking, Barbie, there's so many. There's so many.

Speaker 1 How are you looking at this? Why go on this, I mean, massive tour? I'm just curious how you think about what you're doing here.

Speaker 2 I look at it as the tour, I think, is just to make sure that people go and see this film. I think it's an important film to see.
I think it's important for everyone to see, not just for women to see.

Speaker 2 And that's sort of the thing that's coming back to me. Men are saying that they've been to see this film and they are connecting with it on the level.
They are.

Speaker 1 I took my 19-year-old son. He didn't want to go.
He goes, that's a chick film. He's 19.
He's a frat bro in Michigan. And I said, you're going with mama.
Why not?

Speaker 1 No, we'll go to Gladiator together afterwards,

Speaker 1 which I also liked.

Speaker 1 But he loved it. He thought it was incredibly powerful.

Speaker 2 And I think that's actually the important thing. I think part of doing this tour is to make sure that everybody understands that it's not just a chick film.
It's not just for little girls.

Speaker 2 It's not just for kids, that it's actually for everyone. There is something for everyone in it.

Speaker 2 And that just because there are two women protagonists, that doesn't automatically mean that no men can understand what's going on.

Speaker 2 We don't say that of films that are mainly male, and most films are mainly male. I mean, we have the Irish moment, which was

Speaker 2 quite frankly all men, but nobody is saying this is a do film. No, we go and we watch it because it's a good film.
We go and we watch good cinema. And I think

Speaker 2 with big movies, we sort of like

Speaker 2 we don't allow them to also be medicine too. They can also feed you things that we need to know about the human condition.
And I believe that this is what this film has the power to do.

Speaker 2 Bring people in, make people believe in magic, but also make people think about what it is. to change your mind, to make a person feel like they don't belong, to ask for forgiveness and to forgive, to

Speaker 2 know what it feels like to not belong and also to see yourself in that, and then maybe find ways for yourself to accept who you are. So you aren't searching for other people to accept you.

Speaker 2 There is so much in this film that I think is really important for people to see.

Speaker 1 I would agree. I mean,

Speaker 1 my favorite line, you were talking about divine gravity a second ago, is no wizard that there is or was is ever going to bring me down, which is one of the great lines.

Speaker 1 And it feels like it's become my motto for this. I've covered Elon Musk for 30 years and I know him very well and he's a terrible person.
But,

Speaker 1 you know, in this Trump 2.0 world,

Speaker 1 I always think about

Speaker 1 someone like an Elon Musk and this song meeting that moment, even if it's 25 years old.

Speaker 1 Talk a little bit about that because you have this film that's

Speaker 1 against the zeitgeist right now or whatever it happens to be.

Speaker 2 There's no way we could have imagined that this was what was going to happen. I mean, honestly, it took more than 20 years for it to become what it is, for it to get to the screen.

Speaker 2 And yet somehow we've managed to land right when we're supposed to land.

Speaker 1 Perfect timing.

Speaker 2 And I think that the amount of times I've been told that this is the film that people need right now, because there's so much hopelessness. People are so afraid.

Speaker 2 People are really, really scared about.

Speaker 2 what will happen to them and their families and

Speaker 2 whether or not we're going to go back in time. Now,

Speaker 2 we do not know for sure, but I think a film like this can help us be hopeful about the fact that we are not helpless and that it takes a little bravery to change things, but things can change.

Speaker 2 We are more powerful than we allow ourselves to be, even against the worst of it. And I just think that this film is really important for that now.

Speaker 1 One of the things that I was thinking about given the time of the release, which is just after the election, do you think the reception to Wicked would have been different if Kamala Harris had won, at least in this country,

Speaker 1 as a personification of the opposition in film? Were you ever worried that you personally could have come under attack by MAGA if the election had gone the other way, for example?

Speaker 2 I don't think I was ever worried about whether I would come under attack because I actually think, strangely enough, I think people of all ages from all walks of life. are watching this movie.

Speaker 2 I think a person who might be wearing a MAGA cap is still watching it. In fact, I know there are people who are wearing MAGA caps that have worn it.

Speaker 2 I've spoken to a person who was wearing a MAGA cap who definitely watched this movie and loved the movie.

Speaker 1 What did they say to you?

Speaker 2 That they loved it and it was really special.

Speaker 2 There is humanity in this. That's the thing I think is really important.

Speaker 2 Films can shift the way people think and feel.

Speaker 2 And this movie, I think, is able to shift the way people feel and think.

Speaker 2 And there are people, and anyone who doesn't want to shift or think or feel or change the way they see things is just simply i think afraid of what it looks like on the other side if they have to look at the mirror and go oh maybe i've been wrong right but you don't see it as an opposition movie or a resistance movie or anything like that i think anything that has women in the in the lead that is talking about difference that is talking about people who are on the outside it will always have an element of resistance in it because there's some genetic makeup of it but right more than it being resistance, I think it's a movie about humanity, which everyone can afford to see.

Speaker 2 I think.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a dirty word, diversity, right now, but it's not a dirty word.

Speaker 2 I wish we could all just get over ourselves. The word diversity simply means many different things in one place.
It should be a norm. We shouldn't be discussing

Speaker 2 we need diversity because it all should just be as it is. When you walk outside, you see thousands and thousands of different people who aren't the same as you.
That is diversity.

Speaker 2 We're just simply wanting to see it, what we see in real life on our screens. There should be, and in our workplaces and where we live.
There should be.

Speaker 2 Well, there should be.

Speaker 1 They're scrubbing it from everything right now, which is makes it more powerful.

Speaker 2 It's saying,

Speaker 1 actually,

Speaker 2 it makes everyone weaker.

Speaker 2 Doing that makes everyone weaker.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I'm sure that the opposite is to be thought of.

Speaker 2 We think that if we just, if we just ask, then it will be no, because you lose, you lose out on the thoughts of other people on how to actually cater to an actual mass.

Speaker 2 You're actually only connecting with a small amount of people, not everybody, which is a sad loss, I think. But I don't think it will remain.

Speaker 1 You know, the story is about systematic government surveillance, oppression by incompetent leaders, lying, misinformation, marginalized people who've been othered rising up to fight against injustice.

Speaker 1 It's really kind of interesting.

Speaker 2 Gregory Maguire wrote it that way.

Speaker 2 And he

Speaker 2 wanted that, you know, at the forefront of it. And I think it's important to keep reminding ourselves that those systems are in place.
If we're not mindful of it, we actually end up rewinding.

Speaker 1 Well, in fact, when I saw it for the first time, I saw it. I was like, oh, this is about my life.
I'm happy to be gay. But I was like, oh, I see who wrote this.
Like, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 but speaking of that, I want to ask you about something you said in a speech last year when you accepted the Schrader Award at Los Angeles LGBT Center. Let me play a part.

Speaker 1 I thought this was a wonderful speech you gave.

Speaker 2 As I stand here in front of you, black, bald-headed, pierced, and queer,

Speaker 2 I can say I know a thing or two about being the other.

Speaker 2 Alphabet's story is the cautionary tale of what it can sometimes mean to have to stand in your individuality, your otherness, even when systems of oppression are set against you.

Speaker 2 It is the story of how a colourful, powerful, magical woman, despite being disparaged, demonized, and discriminated against, becomes a hero.

Speaker 2 Wicked is the reclamation and the reimagining of all the labels that are used against her. It is the proclamation of her right to exist in all of her power.

Speaker 2 If that sounds familiar to you, colorful, magical people in this room, it should.

Speaker 1 It was a great speech. You also talked about being inside of a glass box, which I thought was a really wonderful metaphor.

Speaker 1 And you said, there you were, vibrant and beautiful, and falling in love, and I had my nose pressed up against the glass, looking out at all of you, separate and apart.

Speaker 1 It took time for me to outgrow my box, but that gift that it gives us space to see ourselves clear enough to know that denying a part of oneself is a disservice to a whole.

Speaker 1 But now the glass is shattered and there's no box inside, and I've walked out into the wide open spaces, into the arms of people, and it feels like home.

Speaker 2 Um, talk a little bit about that,

Speaker 1 the shattering of the box. I think everyone that people have different metaphors for that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I

Speaker 2 had not really talked about my queerness for such a long time, and yeah, and was and it was so loud for me, uh, and I was very sure of it.

Speaker 2 And I just I didn't have the words and I couldn't I never spoken about it and until Edward Edinphal who knew me very well asked if I just for people who don't know that's Vogue magazine's editor Britain he had asked me I call him Uncle Edward he asked me if I wanted to share it if I wanted to be a part of an edition a pride edition and I said yes because I felt really safe with him

Speaker 2 and it was the first time that I was just like I think I'm done

Speaker 2 not being

Speaker 2 everything that I'm supposed to be because I felt like it was occupying so much space and

Speaker 2 it was like loud. And I just, I wanted to get rid of the noise and claim back the space a bit so I could actually just exist and be a human in the world and create more.

Speaker 2 I really felt like the more I hid something, the more I suppressed it, the less space I was using to create and be. And I wasn't truly,

Speaker 2 I felt like I wasn't being honest

Speaker 2 with myself and with other people about who I was. And I just was over it.
I was done.

Speaker 1 I mean, it is obviously so debilitating.

Speaker 1 Hiding is always debilitating. And it used to be much worse.
It's still debilitating.

Speaker 1 And last night I was at an event in San Francisco or two nights ago, and a young trans reporter, was it a journalism thing, asked me from the audience, I'm a trans woman, should I talk about it?

Speaker 1 And I said, you can't hide, it will kill you. It's like a cancer within a person.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that's, it just, it just grows.

Speaker 2 And I felt myself getting like

Speaker 2 almost resentful that other people could just be and enjoy their lives as queer out people. And I was like, I want that for myself.
I want to be able to talk about it.

Speaker 2 When someone brings it up in a room, I want to be able to say, yeah, I'm me too. I want to be able to say,

Speaker 2 I want to be able to share in those conversations.

Speaker 2 and and i wasn't i couldn't and i was quiet and i just was i just was over why was that why why be quiet what were you frightened of i think i was just afraid that it would it would make the spaces that i could be a part of smaller i think i thought it would uh get there's not many there's not many queer people in in theater but go ahead

Speaker 2 it's not things about like tv and and and screen and i just was like i don't know it's one thing to be a black girl on screen it's another to be a queer black girl in in the mainstream.

Speaker 2 So I just was like, I don't know if this is going to

Speaker 2 end this for me, but I know that I can't continue pretending. That just doesn't work.
I've been in so many conversations where people were talking about their lives and,

Speaker 2 you know, how they loved. And I, I, you know, you're in theater and you're around so many people who are that way.
And

Speaker 2 I was just like,

Speaker 2 why?

Speaker 2 I can't, I can't pretend anymore. It's just after you hear those conversations over and over and over again, and you're like, it's right on the tip of your tongue.
You want to be like, oh, me too.

Speaker 2 And you don't. It just, I just want to do it anymore.

Speaker 1 I had just interviewed Laverne Cox, who said trans people should start to hide again. Laverne was specifically talking about transgender kids.
They should go stealth for their safety.

Speaker 1 She wasn't saying it's a good thing. She's worried about kids today.
What advice would you give for young people who would be struggling, especially in this political climate?

Speaker 1 It is scary in this country at this point. I'm scared.

Speaker 1 I mean, I've been through the whole thing.

Speaker 2 I can't lie and say that I'm not frightened for

Speaker 2 young children who are discovering who they are and trying to navigate what it is to be queer for themselves and what it is to be trans

Speaker 2 and trying to figure out where they sit within the world. And

Speaker 2 I hope that they seek out adults who understand what it is they might be going through because

Speaker 2 less than hiding from the world,

Speaker 2 there have to be older people, older adults that understand

Speaker 2 and have the experience that can be soft places to land.

Speaker 2 I really don't want people to hide themselves. I don't want people to hide who they are.
So I don't think that actually helps.

Speaker 2 I understand

Speaker 2 why

Speaker 2 that is the suggestion. And I want kids to be safe.
I want young teenagers to be safe. I want people to be safe.

Speaker 2 But I wonder if there is a middle ground where it is about finding

Speaker 2 chosen family who will accept you for who you are so that those are safe spaces for you to just be.

Speaker 1 You do play a lot of rebel characters. You were nominated for an Oscar for your portrayal of Harriet Tubman.
You played Aretha Franklin.

Speaker 1 Celie from Color Purple takes a stand. Have you been drawn or feel compelled to be an advocate or activist at all or not?

Speaker 2 I think maybe subconsciously I'm moving towards it consistently. I think I find that the work allows me to sort of plant my flag in the sand about what I believe

Speaker 2 and the way I see

Speaker 2 our place in the world.

Speaker 2 I think I'm constantly seeking out characters who want something and who stand for more than just

Speaker 2 nothing, you know, whether it's Aretha, who actually was an activist, and I don't know that many people even know this. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 Or it's Celie who has to figure out what it means to love and is also a queer character, or whether it's Alphabet. I think I seek them out by accident.

Speaker 2 They just are. Those are desirable characters for me.
I'm drawn to them because they have something to say.

Speaker 2 And I

Speaker 2 I guess there's something thrilling about

Speaker 2 using my voice to say what they want to say, but it's also kind of saying what I want to say too.

Speaker 1 We'll be back in a minute.

Speaker 5 Support for this show comes from OnePassword. If you're an IT or security pro, managing devices, identities, and applications can feel overwhelming and risky.

Speaker 5 Trellica by OnePassword helps conquer SaaS sprawl and shadow IT by discovering every app your team uses, managed or not. Take the first step to better security for your team.

Speaker 5 Learn more at onepassword.com/slash podcast offer. That's onepassword.com slash podcast offer.
All lowercase.

Speaker 1 One of the things you use is your voice for music because integral to all the roles you play that people know of right now.

Speaker 1 In 2019, you got an Oscar nod for the song Stand-Up, which you were, I think, a co-writer with, and Harriet, which you also performed.

Speaker 1 The film's not a musical, but the music plays a central role as a mode of communication in that movie, for sure.

Speaker 1 You also co-wrote and performed a song in the indie film Drift, which came out in 2023.

Speaker 1 How important does music play in your cure going forward? I mean, I suspect you're someone, unfortunately, that every time you show up, they want you to sing, right? The party.

Speaker 1 Please sing, right?

Speaker 2 Music is completely, it's like my second language, essentially. So I feel like it all goes hand in hand.
I think it's always been a part of how I express and how I tell stories.

Speaker 2 And I love that somehow it sort of weaved its way into everything that I've kind of done, maybe except for

Speaker 2 a TV role, Holly Divney, who doesn't like music, strangely enough. But I think that

Speaker 2 using music to express and tell a story, because I really do believe that music is the bit that comes after there's not enough, that the words aren't enough.

Speaker 2 And so to be able to use that for me is great. I

Speaker 2 feel very privileged and very lucky to be able to access that part of myself because I do think it's a really vulnerable part, which is probably why I'm drawn to it a lot and why I keep trying to sometimes I

Speaker 2 actively put it in. There was no real music in Drift.

Speaker 2 It's something I knew I wanted to write immediately. Yeah.
I felt like it was necessary to

Speaker 2 hear this character's thought process and story in music because it accesses the most vulnerable parts of people.

Speaker 1 Can you explain what Drift was briefly?

Speaker 2 Drift was a little indie movie. that I made.

Speaker 1 You produced it too.

Speaker 2 Produced it too.

Speaker 2 Was acting in it as a character called Jacqueline,

Speaker 2 who

Speaker 2 was

Speaker 2 a refugee from Liberia, but was born to a well-to-do family, political family, who was massacred. And then she escapes to Greece.

Speaker 2 And you're essentially watching her life as she tries to survive in Greece. It's sort of like a recitative on the condition of

Speaker 2 immigrants and

Speaker 2 refugees in other countries.

Speaker 1 What direction are you going in now? Do you see yourself returning to the stage, Broadway producing indie film?

Speaker 1 You know, when you get to a blockbuster status, you have a lot more choices, presumably, but maybe not. I don't know.
Do I have to choose?

Speaker 2 Can I do all of that?

Speaker 1 What are you attracted to about that?

Speaker 2 I mean, I definitely know that I want to go back to stage at some point. I just don't know how or what, because

Speaker 2 following up Seeley and the color purple is really hard. Yeah.
I need to find the thing that fills me just as much as that.

Speaker 2 And when I knew that the colour purple was coming, I knew immediately that I wanted to do it. So I have to, I want to find the thing that makes me feel that way again.

Speaker 2 It might not be exactly the same, but I want to be sure about the thing that I'm going to do. And then, and I, I definitely want, I love the experience of building a this big world.

Speaker 2 So I still want to, I want to experience more of this size of movie because it's it's really um

Speaker 2 different

Speaker 2 to other things. But there are definitely stories that I'm looking at now that are not as big.
They're much quieter, much more intimate things. It's the characters that pull me in, to be honest.

Speaker 2 It's not necessarily the

Speaker 2 project.

Speaker 2 It's always the character.

Speaker 1 You just, for people who don't know, you've been cast to play in an upcoming film Children of Blood and Bone, based on a best-selling young adult series.

Speaker 1 The character is not nice. It's not nice.

Speaker 2 No, she's not. She's not nice.
But

Speaker 2 she believes that she's justified in her behavior.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I like

Speaker 2 the core of where she comes from. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Now, you also reportedly have a new album coming out this year.

Speaker 1 Can you give us a preview of that?

Speaker 2 Or maybe? The album is sort of like born of

Speaker 2 a lot of vocal techniques. I build the pads using my own voice.
I don't have an arranger. I don't use arrangements.
They sort of come to me as they come to me.

Speaker 2 So I'll record a vocal line and then record a vocal line over that and record a vocal line over that.

Speaker 2 And as each line is being recorded, the next set of vocal lines will come to me. So I do it

Speaker 2 in real time.

Speaker 2 And then I've written on all of these songs. I have a couple of writers who have come in to work with me on some songs, and sometimes it's just me and my producer, Will Wells.

Speaker 2 And I'm really excited about it. It's not a musical,

Speaker 2 it's not in the style of theatre,

Speaker 2 although that doesn't mean that those songs couldn't be in a show, but

Speaker 2 it's

Speaker 2 sort of influenced by the type of music that I've listened to over my life, whether it be RB or sort of brick pop or pop.

Speaker 2 And I wasn't even necessarily going for the style. I really wanted to concentrate on the way the voice was used within the music.

Speaker 2 And that's what each of those songs has in common, that the voice is really frightforward. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Right. And then you'll be on the wicked freight train.
Very versatile. I have two very quick last questions.

Speaker 1 One is, I was with, I was in Los Angeles because I'm working on something there and a table full of gay people, gay and lesbian and queer people, and they all wanted to know about your nails.

Speaker 1 And I said, I'm not asking about her clothing. That is something you would ask a woman, you know, and not a man.

Speaker 1 And they said, Oh, if it was a man, I would ask about that, or the way you dress and what you're doing.

Speaker 1 They were really curious about what you're doing it for, for yourself, for

Speaker 1 performance. I said, For you, that's what I said.

Speaker 1 And I dress badly, so I wouldn't know, but go ahead.

Speaker 2 I dress for me. I dress for me because

Speaker 2 clothing for me is

Speaker 2 like a love language, and that's everything from my piercings to the nails to

Speaker 2 what I put on my body to my jewelry.

Speaker 2 Everything I wear by whatever that is is because it speaks to me and who I am as a person and the style I want to express. Some people are more sedate with what they wear.
I'm just not.

Speaker 2 I've been this way for a really long time. It's just people get it a lot more now.

Speaker 2 And I guess I'm a rebel in that, that I just sort of,

Speaker 2 I'm not really afraid about whether or not people like it or not.

Speaker 2 Oh, they loved it.

Speaker 1 They loved it. They just wanted to know why.
They all had theories.

Speaker 2 And I also want people to be encouraged that they can just be themselves. I think sometimes we dress because we want people to say that we look good.

Speaker 2 We dress because we want to be on the best dress list.

Speaker 2 I dress because I love it. I dress because I love.

Speaker 2 clothes and I love dressing up and I love jewelry and I am a geek about how things are made and who makes it and I'll seek out random boutique like designers that nobody else in the world knows and and I'll be in love with with the way they make things and it just is how I am yeah it's fantastic I thought you know I wear soft pants myself all the time soft clothes

Speaker 2 soft

Speaker 1 that's my style soft pants I'm wearing hard pants today for you but otherwise I wear soft pants I'm sorry for asking that but I told them I would so because oh no

Speaker 2 it's a great question because I think sometimes people think I'm doing it for other people.

Speaker 1 Um, but I'm really told they thought your nails were a shield. I was like, I don't know,

Speaker 2 no, I think it's the opposite. This is something I've been doing since I was 16 years old, and then I stopped doing it because I was afraid of what people would say.
And then I realized how much

Speaker 2 fun it is to have them done, and

Speaker 2 how

Speaker 2 it also gave me three or five hours to sit and do nothing and have someone put their art on my fingers. Like,

Speaker 2 I,

Speaker 2 in fact,

Speaker 2 the way it brings people in is actually really interesting. People are not afraid to hold my hand, like they want to look at my fingers, which means that people have to be in your personal space.

Speaker 1 He's pulling them in. Haha, they were wrong.
Last question. If you won best actress at the Oscars, you'd be the youngest person to get an egot.
Yeah. What would that mean for you?

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 I always try and like play this off like it's like a

Speaker 2 not a meaningful thing, but it would be really meaningful. It would be very exciting to be that, to be that, to be the youngest person that wins an egot.

Speaker 2 And it's also like a sort of big pat on the back from people that I, you know, I look up to for the work.

Speaker 2 that I'm doing and hopefully sort of like a big kick up the bum to keep going and and doing more.

Speaker 2 You don't necessarily do this for awards. You don't.
You do it because you love the work. If you just did it for the awards, that would not sustain.
It would run out very quickly.

Speaker 2 But it is really special for people to think of you in that way. It is really special for those things to come because of this work.
And it's rare.

Speaker 2 It's a nice place to be.

Speaker 1 Yes, it is. And you're in a very nice place, may I just say.

Speaker 1 I really appreciate you talking to me.

Speaker 1 I really hope you win. I scream about it all the time.
I'm like, she has.

Speaker 2 I thought the others were fine.

Speaker 1 Your role, I have to tell you, impacted my daughter in a way that was really meaningful, you know, in terms of the message. She loved it and was thought about it a lot.

Speaker 1 It made her think, especially your facial expressions. I know that sounds crazy.
You had a lot of facial expressions. She caught.
She's a very canny child. And she...

Speaker 1 She came back from school. She's a public schooler in D.C.

Speaker 1 And she said, I learned the word diverse today, which I was like, sort of the last time you're going to be able to learn it if the Republicans take over DC schools.

Speaker 1 And she goes, I go, What does it mean? I didn't want to define it for her. She goes, But what does that mean? And she said, It means you're different, like Alphaba, that you're just different.

Speaker 1 We're all different, and it's okay. And I was like, Thank you.
It was so good. It was such a great moment.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 1 it was lovely. It was really sweet.

Speaker 2 Can we get your daughter to teach everybody else, please?

Speaker 1 You know what?

Speaker 1 Because that is

Speaker 2 so interesting.

Speaker 2 I've been really astounded by how

Speaker 2 beautifully and succinctly children have been able to put the themes that are in this film together. It's actually

Speaker 2 wonderful to hear it from kids because they just get it.

Speaker 2 I don't know why that surprises me, but it does because of how

Speaker 1 clear

Speaker 2 they are every time.

Speaker 1 Every time.

Speaker 1 Always. They know they should run everything.
They should not grow up and they should run everything. Instead, we're being governed by adult children, toddlers, which is an insult to toddlers.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2 Thank you very much for this. This is really awesome.

Speaker 1 On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor-Roselle, Kateri Yoakum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Purwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio.

Speaker 1 Special thanks to Kate Furby, Kate Gallagher, and Corinne Ruff. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics.

Speaker 1 If you're already fine, the show, you get a pair of fantastic nails. If not, you get some soft pants from me.
Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow.

Speaker 1 Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

Speaker 5 Support for this show comes from OnePassword. If you're an IT or security pro, managing devices, identities, and applications can feel overwhelming and risky.

Speaker 5 Trellica by OnePassword helps conquer SaaS sprawl and shadow IT by discovering every app your team uses, managed or not. Take the first step to better security for your team.

Speaker 5 Learn more at one password.com/slash podcast offer. That's onepassword.com/slash podcast offer.
All lowercase.