Chef Matty Matheson of ‘The Bear’ on Culinary Stardom, On and Off The Screen

I needed a happy interview, and I hope you are. If you're not, that's just the way it's going to go.
I don't know what to say. You know, we'll see.
I'm pretty happy, you know? Okay, good. I think that's your whole brand, from what I understand.
Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher.
My guest today is chef, restaurateur, cookbook author, and actor-producer, Maddie Matheson. If you're a foodie, you've probably known about Maddie for a while.
He's had review-worthy restaurants in Canada for more than a decade. He currently has 13 restaurants with varying cuisines.
His third cookbook, Soups, Salads, and Sandwiches, came out in October. He has a farm and a bunch of other food-based business ventures.
If you aren't a foodie, you might recognize him from the Hulu FX show, The Bear, which has won 21 primetime Emmys. Season three was recently nominated for five Golden Globes.
Maddie got signed onto the show to be a food consultant and ended up with a role and an executive producer title. No, he's not the Calvin Klein model lead Carmi, also known as Jeremy Allen White, or the evil sadist chef de cuisine who demoralizes Carmi at the fancy New York restaurant.
Maddie plays Neil Fack, the tattooed kind of goofy family friend who also is a handyman who starts out just hanging around the restaurant playing video games and ends up being some kind of emotional whisperer to Carmody as he's been going through what is clearly an emotional break while trying to get a Michelin star in season three. One thing that's important to me is my son Louie is a huge fan of Maddie's YouTube channel and his show Cooking Something with Maddie Matheson.
He has something like 1.5 million followers on YouTube and, of course, more across social media, especially among young people like my son, who is also an aspiring cook and may not become a chef, but he certainly loves doing it. I want to talk to Matty about his role in The Bear in front of the camera and behind the scenes.
I want to talk to him about his career as someone who didn't do well in school and found his passion through cooking and why he thinks food translates so well to a younger YouTube audience.

He's a big punk fan, but also a kitchen table philosopher of sorts. He's a really thoughtful guy, despite his gonzo reputation.
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Other fees may apply. it is over hi maddie.
Thanks for being on On. I really appreciate you doing this.
So let's talk about your cookbook to start with. It came out with your third one in October.
You already have two bestsellers. In 2018, you published Maddie Matheson, a cookbook.
And in 2020, Homestyle Cookery. This one's more focused, soup, salads, and sandwiches.
And I guess that's what cookbook writers do, start big and then hone in on specific courses of types of food. But in the intro to the third book, you wrote something I thought was interesting.
Let me read it. Sometimes cooking is scary or makes you feel uncomfortable.
That's okay. Even I'm uncomfortable when I'm cooking, but the power of cooking always outweighs the fears and the anxieties, as long as the love is just a little greater than the hate we're eating good tonight.

I don't think that's what people expect with a glossy soup sandwich salads cookbook. Talk about what you're trying to say there.
I don't know. Every day, people are feeling feelings, and I I think cooking is a way to kind of have a release.

For me, it's relatively easy to cook. I don't have to really think about how I'm going to cook.
It's more about what I'm going to cook. And I think a lot of people have to really think about what they're going to cook and how they're going to cook it.
And I think that can be overwhelming on top of everything else that's going on in people's lives. And yeah, I just think that food is one of those things that is, it's kind of an uncompromising love.
It's a force that nourishes you. It's a force that, you know, you get to create and it builds character and it builds, I don't know.
I just, I really love it. But it's also like doing it is stressful at times, you know, especially with kids and life and everything else.
And then trying to manage time and manage a good meal. It can really sometimes get you in even a darker place sometimes, or it adds to the stresses of life.
Right. So tell me what adds to the stresses of life in cooking for you.
What's the greater hate? I don't know. Hate's probably strong, but you wrote that.
Yeah. Give me a moment that causes you hate and one that causes you love, like an act of cooking.

Well, love is easy. I think it's even like last night I made some beef stroganoff.

Delicious.

Yeah, I made this like lovely meal for everyone at home. And then my son was just like, I don't like mushrooms.
My daughter, Rizzo, she was like, I want shrimp. And then Ozzy, my youngest, is like, I want pasta.
And I'm like, well, you guys told me you all liked stroganoff and we've had it multiple times. that's why I made one meal and um you know the frustration sets in and then uh all of a sudden I'm trying to get them to taste it and they don't want to taste it and I pick the mushrooms out for my son and then he's like I do like the mushrooms and you're just in this comp like you're constantly in this negotiation of You're a short order chef.
Yeah, and then also it's like, I do like the mushrooms. And you're just in this, like, you're constantly in this negotiation of trying to— You're a short order, chef, is what you want.
Yeah, and then also it's like, I'm doing this thing and, like, my daughter has to, you know, she's got gymnastics. My son has taekwondo.
Yeah, yeah. All these things are happening.
I have to have dinner ready by 4.30. And, you know, but it's that thing where all of a sudden you're cooking with love, you're excited, the kids all said they wanted Shrogonov, and then they turn their backs on you, and then it turns into, like, I'm negotiating against three, you know, uncompromising forces, you know? I have four kids.
I've been there. I've been there with that.
Or else, we had, my brother's kid, my brother's also a great cook. And one of his kids would only eat things that are white.
Yeah. Like just white food, like pasta, butter, Parmesan, toast, things like that, which was difficult.
And I was like, stop short-order shoving your kids. Give them what you want.
And he said, you'll see. And of course I did.
But you come from kind of a punk background. Writers have called your approach gonzo.
Okay. Is that how you would describe it? Sort of the shut the fuck up if you don't like it? You don't sound like that at all.
Who are you cooking for? What's your style? I'm thinking of like, fucks, that's delicious. And that kind of that.
It's that genre of cook. Or maybe not.
Yeah. I don't know.
I'm like, it's funny because it is like one of those things where I've always I've had like multiple types of careers around things and I've done things a lot of the way that I've done I've done them the way that I've done them you know I've made cooking videos for over 10 years now I've always kind of been myself and spoken the way that I speak. And I'm funny, I'm this, I'm whatever, I'm loud, all that kind of stuff.
But like, I think like in the restaurants, it's very different. I put my actual kind of chef mind at work and do those types of things and want to be a chef, you know, and I am a chef with,

with our restaurants. And, and so it is like one of those things where it's like very different hats that I'm able to kind of put on in those different scenarios of like the way that I am on YouTube is certainly not the way that I am in a professional kitchen in one of our restaurants.
Right.

And so it is like a very different kind of scope in each situation.

And yeah, I don't know, like Gonzo, it's like whatever. I'm like, I have no idea.
I am who I am and I've done what I've done. And I think it's just like, it all speaks for itself, you know, kind of thing of what types of restaurants I have and the vibes of those restaurants and everything that I care about and how I feel about restaurants is what we're trying to kind of emulate in these spaces is like what I believe is really great hospitality and really great food.
And like, that's all I'm trying to do. And I think it is like, you know, at a younger age when I was like, you know, I was a chef when I was like 26.
Like, I opened our first restaurant when I was 26 years old. I'm 42 now.
You know, it's been a long kind of career of that. Let's talk about that later.
You talked about how you weren't particularly good in school as a kid and the culinary school changed your life. What do you think the environment, why a cooking environment worked where school didn't? Yeah, culinary school was an amazing thing because I think it was, I wasn't good at, I wasn't good at high school.
I wasn't good at like going to math class, going to science class, going to whatever the heck it was. Nothing clicked.
You know, I never had that thing where I was like, I love English. I love writing.
I love reading. I love science.
I never had anything that I like really gravitated towards. In high school, all I wanted to do was like, go to like punk shows and like, hang out with my friends and, you know, do kid shit.
And so when I went to culinary school, it was like this amazing thing happened where I loved cooking and I was reasonably good at it. And I found a natural ability where before I didn't have, I never felt that I never was great at sports.
I was never good at school. So then all of a sudden I'm in school, but I'm doing something I genuinely love and I'm getting good grades.
So then all of a sudden you're like, oh, if I show up every day and I'm in my clean chef whites and I do what the chef says and I, you know, make the food that we're making that day in a timely, clean fashion and be efficient and, you know, maintain my station, all of a sudden I get good grades. And I was just like, this is amazing.
And it was like a thing that like built self-esteem and confidence and all these things that I never really felt for years going to school. And so then I was just like, this is an amazing place.
I loved it. So one of the things when you think about becoming a chef, we're going to talk about the bear in just a minute, but it's the idea of having trauma and insecurity, for example.
A lot of chefs, that's the idea. And it's usually a big complaint to people in the culinary world of trauma, insecurity, being verbally abused, et cetera.
How do you look at the environment right now of the restaurant business? Yeah, I don't know. I think people are learning a lot.
I think, you know, the brigade style of this, you know, singular chef person that has the almighty say is one thing. And, you know, I worked in great French restaurants and some were ran like that.
And some were a little more collaborative and amazing. And I don't know.
I think the landscape right now is a lot of people are aware of the history and and aware of the unsustainable work that came along with a lot of those types of restaurants. And I think now it's this amazing thing where we understand what people want and what people deserve and how to give them that and create kitchens that are, you know, a unified problem-solving team and are giving people infrastructure and training on how to do what we want.
A lot of restaurants, it was based on learning how to do something. You're shown once or twice, and then you have to execute.
And then if you mess up, you would get in trouble. And I think that that type of learning and that type of teaching isn't really that sustainable.
I think you need to be able to talk to your team members constantly, give them understanding. If they're not catching something, help them.
You know, you get more bees with honey. You know, it's one of those things, and you're able to do that without yelling, and you're able to do that without being mean, you know? When you see that, what do you think? When you see the yelling, you know, I'm thinking Gordon Ramsey, of course he's made it almost a brand and famous.
Yeah, like it is one of those things where I think if a chef's yelling, it means that they're not communicating properly. And a lot of chefs, I think, believe that people can read their minds.
And if you just leave somebody out on the lurch like trying to figure something out and they don't do exactly what you think and then you get frustrated by that dish not being up to your standards, then there could have been more communication. There could have been more teaching, more hand-holding, more thought on your side.
But a yelling chef is somebody who's lost control. Speaking of control, you have a bunch of restaurants.
Is it, I don't know, 15, 10, 11? Yeah, it's like 13, I think, right now. So you have Prime Seafood Palace, you have Rizzo's House of Parm, Maddie's Patty's Burger Club, the Banh Mi restaurant.
You've pushed back against the idea that you have an empire, but a lot of chefs do have an empire, and this feels like one. Talk about why you have so many restaurants and what's your goal in having all these different places.
I think empire is just a stupid word to use in a small business. We're still ran.
We run it like a small business. We're an independent restaurant.
I'm not backed by some giant VC company or some development company, you know. So we are able to run our restaurants a little bit differently than these like larger groups and um yeah my my goal is to make beautiful restaurants that inspire me and things that come from my background and come from the history of my life and things that I really connect with and Cafe Rang is is you know our love letter to Vietnam.
And my friendship and partnership with Rang is an incredible thing. And I think like Maddie's Patties is started from me and Pat Tenore cooking cheeseburgers in Hawaii for kids.
You know, they all come from something. So it's just like, I think building these restaurants

and creating these spaces is just me showing the world in Toronto specifically, like where I come

from and what makes me and like, that's the way that I want to like present myself and,

and give people food and give people a place to go and eat.

What's your, do you cook at all these places? No. Do you set the menus? What's your role now when you have this many restaurants? Yeah, I work with all of our chefs in front of house.
I create all of the restaurants and the design and the menus and work with all of our team members on creating these spaces. I'm working with all of the chefs on ideation and writing the menus and then executing recipes and getting the recipes up to our standards and getting them to a level.
And then I'm just constantly working with everybody, you know, just dialing in these businesses and dialing in our food and our beverage systems and working with them daily, you know? When you're figuring out what has to go between all the restaurants, is there a through line for any of them at all? There's a, in season three of The Bear, they talk about non-negotiables, right? Carmi makes a list of things that are non-negotiables, like personal hygiene's confidence and competence, no repeat ingredients. Richie has his own list, including an environment that embraces razzle-dazzle and dream weave, which are interesting.
It sounds like something you might say, but do you have a non-negotiable list for your restaurants or your teams and what's on it or what should be? Yeah, we have different, each space has, you know, I think it's just more of core values and things like that and our standards of what we, how we show up for work and how we execute the job every day and how we uplift each other. And yeah, there's a bunch of that kind of stuff.
Like there's a baseline of cleanliness and professionalism and all those types of things on all of our restaurants. And then each space and restaurant has definitely a very specific, there's different talent pools.
You know, the talent pool at Maddie's Patty's is very different than Cafe Rang. Cafe Rang is very different than Prime Seafood Palace.
They're all very different. And each one needs to be kind of nurtured and given that kind of space to grow and become its own thing.
And we need to be very aware of that. And each one is very kind of, you know, we work on each unit in a very specific way.
Is there one that's all you in the idea, if you had a pick of the restaurants? Yeah, I don't know. They're all very sentimental to me.
They're all very much a part of what I've done and how I've done them. And they all, the through line is things that I love.
You know, Rizzo's House of Parm is my love of my wife's family's cooking. Everything we do comes from an idea or a feeling and an experience that comes from my life.
And the through line is that. The things that make me happy and proud.
And those are the things that, like, it's a very good starting point to have something that's real, that's meaningful, and that's something that comes from a very pure, beautiful place. We'll be back in a minute.
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So let me ask you,

one of your biggest projects is your YouTube show, Cooking Something with Maddie Matheson. Your channel is more than 1.5 million subscribers, and of course, you have many more across social media.
As I said, my son, Louis, loves you and watches you all the time. Cooking shows aren't new, they just used to be on television.
Let me play a clip from a recent episode, and I'd like you to talk a little bit about it. What's up, everybody? I'm Matty Matheson, and welcome today to Cooking Something.
Cooking Something is a show where I'm taking food and I'm cooking something with it, okay? You guys are at home being like, what the fuck do I cook? I don't know. I'm just trying to make something out of nothing, but we got something, and now I'm cooking something, and we're all here working together, trying to make each other feel good, eat good.

You're cooking at home, self-esteem.

I've gone over this how many times?

You're cooking, you're making yourself feel good.

Somebody eats it, they're like, holy fuck, that tastes really amazing.

They're like, yeah, I learned how to make that for Maddie.

And then they're like, oh my God, I love that guy.

He's such a fucking idiot.

And I'm like, yeah.

And now we're here.

Now we're here.

You're a quiet, retiring type.

So can you talk to me about what you're trying to do here? You suddenly throw in self-esteem, too, which I thought was interesting. But talk a little bit about what you're trying to do with this.
In some ways, you're like a typical OG cooking show queen like Julia Child. She had a very bouleant attitude in the French chef and talked about empowering people, mostly women at the time.
Talk about what you're doing here in the YouTube show you're doing. I just want people to get excited about cooking.
And maybe they cook what I cook. Maybe they watch me just to laugh.
Whatever they get out of it, I can't really control that. But I think it is like, I think it's just an amazing thing that I'm able to reach a lot of people and get people excited about cooking.
That's kind of it. You know, like, it's a very basic thing where I'm like, I've had a weekly cooking show for a long time.
That's, you know, free and just on the internet. So if anybody ever wants to go look at stuff, they can go.
And I think it's just like a really cool thing that I love to have. And yeah, like that's all it is.
Is that, does that make money for you? Restaurants are often not money-making ventures, obviously. The economics can be different.
But how do you, is that something that's important economically? Yeah, for sure. Like YouTube is a place that like, I'm able to give people free cooking videos and I'm able to do, you know, 30 second, one minute integrations within those that pay for making that, you know? So it's something that provides a lot of joy to a lot of people and I'm able to make a couple bucks and keep it moving, you know? Obviously, you've been a name in the culinary world for more than a decade, but now people know you from playing this goofy family friend slash handyman, Neil Fack, on The Bear.
Season three's just picked up, five Golden Globe nominations. Congratulations.
Thank you. What's happening in that scene? Because you don't play a chef.
You're the only chef in this series who's not playing a chef. Yeah, I'm just Fack.
I'm playing, you know, a handyman. And, you know, I'm Carmi's, like, best friend.
And I'm trying to make people feel a little love in the middle of all the chaos that's going on. Yeah, in this scene, it's just like, I bring out this dish, mirepoix soup, mirepoix broth.
It's everything that makes the Italian beef without the beef kind of thing was the thinking behind it.

Hi, welcome.

This is a broth from Chef Carmen's mind.

Mirepoix and broth.

I pour it in front of you.

Enjoy.

I took things a little too literally when Chef told me to go and pour it in front of them.

So I went and poured it in front of them and then brought it back to the kitchen. And obviously they were supposed to have it.
What are you doing? I poured it in front of them. Why the fuck is it back in here? Well, we're a restaurant.
I saw it. I served the food.
I got it. What the fuck is this? Come on.
What are you thinking? We have to be organized. Yes, please.
This is the guy who changes everything. It's sincere.
It's a cute little mishap that obviously would make someone's head explode. You know? And it's just, I'm just like this little velvet hammer of love and misunderstanding.
Right, which is what your character is. So you're not just part of the cast.
You're also a consultant and executive producer. Explain how this happened.

Yeah, I've known Chris for a long time. Chris Storer, the creator and director and writer and all that stuff.
And his sister, Courtney Storer, is a close friend of mine. And she's a chef as well.
And she's the culinary producer on the show. And yeah, like we've known each other for a long time.
And then Chris called me one day and wanted to know if I wanted to, like, consult on this pilot of this show that he had. And, yeah.
And I was just like, okay. And, like, we kind of figured it out.
And then I came and we shot the pilot. And we worked, you know, I got to work with the writers.
I got to work with costume and set deck and prop and work with the actors on a lot of stuff. And then we got to go make a show.
And then it just kind of grew. You know, Fax character grew a little bit more.
I feel nobody knew if I was going to be able to act a little bit or be able to do that or whatever. Were you worried about your acting skills? Yeah, it's scary.
It's doing something you've never done before. It's very scary.
A lot of these people are amazing actors that have spent their whole lives trying to be these actors. And then I'm like, I have no idea.
I've never taken an acting class. I don't know.
And then I show up and I'm just trying to do what I'm doing. And it's like, but it was an amazing experience because it's just like, I'm trying to help like be better actors by like giving them a lot of information and stories and showing them how to like move in the kitchens a little bit and like all that kind of stuff.
And then they were giving me the reciprocal of like helping me read my lines and working scenes with me. And it was a really amazing thing.
Everyone on that show is so, so amazing. And Zach is a real fan favorite.
Some people on Reddit say you make the bear a comedy. I want to play you a short segment from season one where you're trying to convince Richie to give you a job at the restaurant.
I graduated high school. Good start.
Be serious, man. I'm being serious.
What might you bring to the beef as a new employee? I've got hearth. What's hearth? I'm nervous, man.
I got heart. Ah, you're gonna need brain.
Now, do you have any special skills or abilities, aside from being a fucking stroke? Well, A, I'm not a fucking stroke. And B, I'm really good on the keyboard.
No, A, you are. And B, no, you're not.
Well, A, yes, I am. And B, I joined a jazz fusion class, so in your face.
A, I've heard you fucking play, and you're fucking terrible, and C, it's a fucking restaurant. Why do I give a fuck that you play the keyboard? I'm a hard worker.
I'm a nice guy. I got a great vibe.
Fuck your vibe. Don't ever fuck my vibe.
I swear to God, I will fuck anything I want to fuck. You are not being nice.
You will not fuck me. Talk about this scene.
You're a very good actor, actually it turns out yeah i don't know it's just like a really kind of oddly intense crazy uh conversation between you know it's a thing where it's just like we've all known each other since we were like kids almost you know and so it's just like everyone's able to speak a little bit. Everyone's a little nastier, it seems.
But yeah, I don't know. I was just like, I wanted to be a part of the team.
I really wanted to be a part of it. I thought I would add value.
I, you know, obviously I probably feel like left out and then just trying to be a part of the team. It's my family.
I love these guys. I love the beef.
I love, you know, everything about it.

And I love Carmi so much.

And now that Carmi's back,

and I just really wanted to be a part of it

and try to help and be there, you know?

Well, speaking of family,

The Bear is about a guy trying to take over

and launch a restaurant.

It's really about families,

the family dynamics behind the scenes

and how people working in restaurants become families.

Speaking of family,

every week we get a question from an outside expert this week.

He's more of an inside expert.

Let's play it.

Thank you. behind the scenes and how people working in restaurants become families.
Speaking of family, every week we get a question from an outside expert this week. He's more of an inside expert.
Let's play it. Hey, Maddie.
This is Jeff Swisher, Kara's older brother and the designated chef of our fairly large Italian-American family. I do the Feast of the Seven Fishes every year, and I have to say that your season two, episode six, Feast of the Seven Fishes, gave me PTSD.
Our mother Lucky has never exactly driven a car into the house, but metaphorically, I'm not so sure. I had a wonderful friend named Peter Dandrea, who sadly passed away too young.
He was the head chef at the Fairmont Hotel in San Francisco. Occasionally, we would go out together to pretty well-known restaurants in San Francisco, and the chefs would seem to try to outdo each other and make something special for the visiting chef.
My question is this. If you knew that Thomas Keller and Dominique Crenn were coming to your restaurant, what would you make for each of them and why? Interesting.
Those are two San Francisco chefs, just for people who don't know. Yeah.
When I was younger, whenever we had chefs come to the restaurant, Odd Fellows, Parts and Labor, I would always cook everything like myself, and I would do these, like, elaborate things and make things off the menu and really just try to, like, show them the love and, like, cook all these, whatever, these stupid-ass things. And now I have this thing where when chefs come in, I want to very much stand on the food that we cook in the restaurant.
I think that the food that we've chosen to cook at the restaurant is the best that we can create. And the team behind all of our menus and all of our food, that's what shines.
And now when chefs come in, we do what we do every day. We give them the same food that we give everybody.
If Thomas Keller and Dominic Crenn came into any one of our restaurants, we would do absolutely nothing different. We would give them the same service and we would give them the same food that we give everybody to the highest of our ability.
And I think that is, you know, later on with life and maturity and everything about that, I think that's the beauty is giving people something that we cook every day, something that we're proud of, something that we build and work on as a team. And I think that is good enough to serve any chef or any patron of any of our establishments.
That's a really interesting answer. Which of the restaurants would you think would you pick? Or you don't want to pick any of your children, I guess, right? If any chef came to any of my restaurants, I'd be excited.
And I would be proud to have three Michelin star chefs or the greatest chefs in the world go eat a cheeseburger or a bowl of pho or a chicken parm or have an extravagant meal at Prime Seafood Palace. I don't see it as anything better or worse.

I'm proud of all of our restaurants, and I think that good food is good food. And I think you can have a beautiful cheeseburger that's just as good as some expensive, fine dining experience.

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One of the projects you support is called the Maddie Matheson Culinary and Hospitality Bursary.

It's a scholarship program for Indigenous students attending post-secondary institutions, especially culinary to hospitality. Can you talk about this program? Yeah, I just wanted to do something that I don't really talk about.
You know, I think there's a lot of things that were like, I'm in a place of privilege and a place of, I can. I can help.
I can donate money to a bursary. And I love it.
And I think having, you know, a place to put money into that supports the culinary arts and gets people into school and helps people. You know, I just had such an amazing experience.
And I think a lot of people deserve a chance that don't have a chance. And I think just putting a little, you know, having that available is something that I'm really proud of and something that I don't really ever speak about either because I think it's kind of whack.
I think you should just be able to do things and not make it a thing. And I think it is, you know, the kids that have gone into culinary school because of that is amazing.
And like, that's it. Have you seen, and more Gen Z people are looking for alternatives, say, to college education, jobs and kitchens.
What are you seeing in kitchens right now? You have all these kitchens. Where do you think things are happening? How is it changing, or not at all? You know, if you want to go to culinary school, go to culinary school.
If you don't want to go to culinary school, don't go to culinary school. If you want to work in kitchens and you have a natural ability and you want to be able to learn and can show up and be a part of a team, then, you know, everyone's welcome.
It's a matter of being able to learn and to be a part of a team. I don't really—it's amazing to go to culinary school and get some basics and get a foundation.

But yeah, I don't know.

A lot of younger kids also are trying to be content creators first, obviously.

You've been on YouTube, as I said, since the early days.

Should people get in the kitchens or go to the creator's studio? They're doing it in journalism.

They're doing it in a lot of places.

I'm going to just do journalism.

Yeah, I, you know. Because you can't taste anything on youtube but go ahead no you certainly can't um yeah i think i think it's very separate i think there's professional chefs and people that want to be cooks and chefs and then there's people that want to be whatever they want to be on on the internet side and on social media and i think it's a it's very different worlds.
And I think more and more people are looking towards creating content and going that route and good for you. And I think it's, you know, I don't want to crap on anything.
If people are able to. You're not a crapper.
No, I just want people to be happy doing what they're doing. There's people that want to be chefs.
There's people that want to be, like, I got a lot of cooks and chefs in our company that don't give a shit about social media and don't give a shit.

They want to be chefs.

And that's an incredible thing.

And, yeah, I don't know.

I can't imagine just all of a sudden one day creating content.

I don't know.

It's a different world where I'm like, I had a long career way before doing any type of video, way before content was content. So it's just like, I'm like this kind of dinosaur, to be honest, where I'm like, I don't know.
I don't think of what I do as content. I don't think of what we do as anything.
I'm like, I make cooking shows and do whatever the hell I'm doing. But it's like, young kids, it's like, yeah, the world's yours.
Go get it. You know, like, honestly, like, if people want to be chefs, go be chefs.
If people want to create content, good luck. And like, I think social media is pretty fickle.
I think it moves pretty fast. I think, you know, trends come and go very quickly.
I think just making a 60-second jump cut TikTok, if you do that, you know, good, amazing. If that makes you happy and you can provide for yourself, then go get it.
But it's like, it's really fickle. It's really crazy.
And, you know, good luck to everybody. Honestly, like, I don't know.
It's interesting because in journalism, I'm like, because a lot of people are using content just without doing the training and i'm always like you should really just write stories to start with i just feel like you should know how to cook an egg in your case right cook a good egg yeah i just see it very differently like i'm like i you know where i'm like i agree with you for sure like why would why are these people able to do what they do what what's their pedigree? What is their knowledge? What is their thing? And the proof's in the pudding where it's just like, maybe they don't have anything. Maybe they don't know anything, but they have a giant following.
I don't know. And then it's just like, there's a lot of that going on too.
And it's just like, you know, it's one of those things. It doesn't really matter because if you want to be that, then be that.
If you want to be a chef, go be a chef. And it's just like, I just see everything as a very different lane where it's just like, who cares also? Like, it is one of those things where I'm like, nothing actually affects it.
Like, I'm like, if there's all these like TikTokers and all this crap out there, I make fun of it all the time where I'm like, I don't understand it. I'm old.
I'm like, I don't understand it. I also don't care.
I have my fan base. I give them what I believe is good quality stuff.
And then— Is there something you see and you go, no, no, no, no, no. Is there something that you go, no, please stop doing this? Is there anything? Well, no, I don't waste my time thinking about stuff like that.
I really don't think like that. Or do you see something you love? I like, for example, love watching people make candies.
Yeah, no, that's nice. I love watching Ina, you know? Like, it's just like, I love watching Ina.
Yeah, like, I love watching Martha. I love watching, I love watching, like, beautiful...
Well, that's the OG. You just mentioned the two OG people.
Well, yeah, but that's what I like watching. That's like—I love the way that they cook.
I love the way they talk about food. I love what they do.
And it is like—there's a lot of people out there that make beautiful content that I do love watching. I love the softer stuff.
I love the—like, you know, like, I'm not watching— Also, I don't go on YouTube ever. I don't watch anything I make.
And I don't really. You just move along to the next thing.
Yeah. I make, yeah, I don't have TikTok on my phone.
I don't really look at Instagram for it. Then please, please don't look at Gordon Ramsay's duets on TikTok.
I'll just advise you that early in advance. What do you want to put in your focus next? Or do you like doing all these things? Yeah, well, I'm doing everything I want to do.
We've created a lot of these things in the last couple of years. And now it's like, how do we make them long lasting? How do we make them real? So have like an Ina Gart and Martha Stewart career, that kind of thing, which has been going on for a while.
I've never had this like big it it moment. It's always been this slow burn.
And I think just continuously doing what I'm doing and working hard on everything that we are doing is all I can do. And I don't think I'm going to start a new business.
I think I have enough things going on. And now I want to have all the things that I do have and make them long-lasting and make them real.
Will Neil finally get his wish and become a waiter? I hope so. You know, I think taking the soup out was like, you know, two steps forward, one step back.
I don't know. I think I'm not giving up.
I think no one's going to give up on Neil. So I think there's good hope on that.
All right. My last question, getting back to your book, your new book.
If you had to pick one soup, salad, and sandwich as your favorite, which would you choose? I know you write in the book that bologna is your childhood favorite. I love bologna and haven't thought of it in a long time.
But what would you pick in the book right now? Do you advise people to start? Yeah, the soup, I would probably genuinely pick... I don't even think it's in the book.
I would just pick a chicken noodle soup. I'd pick definitely a tuna melt.
I love tuna melts. And a salad, I would make...
Probably just my Maddie salad. That's in another book.
It's not even in this book, but I'd make the Maddie salad, which is just like green lettuce, green olives, onion, green beans, celery, oil, vinegar, salt, and pepper. And that would be your favorite.
Yeah, that's the salad I always make and I love and it always makes me happy, you know. Well, we'll end on that.
I really appreciate it, Maddie. Thank you so much.
You really are an inspiration to a lot more people than you think. Thank you.
It's very kind. On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Kateri Yocum, Jolie Myers, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch.

Nishat Kirwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio.

Special thanks to Kate Furby.

Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Arruda.

And our theme music is by Trackademics.

If you're only following the show, you get Maddie's special salad, tuna melt, and chicken noodle soup.

If not, get whatever's on the menu, which is probably great anyway. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow.
Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.
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See for yourself at BotoxCosmetic.com. I'll interview futurist and tech pioneer Jaron Lanier about the current state of AI, the potential it can unlock if we manage this technology well, and the implications for humanity if we don't.
And then in the second episode, I'll talk to Julia Longoria, host of Vox's Good Robot, about the beliefs and ideologies of the people building, funding, and influencing artificial intelligence, and how looking at this AI origin story can provide clues into how this

technology will change the way we live and work. You can find our special series, AI and Us,

right here on the Gray Area.