Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus: Billie Jean King

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Hi, everyone. Happy Thanksgiving.
We're busy enjoying the holidays and stuffing our faces with turkeys. So today we're bringing you a special conversation from Julia Louis-Dreyfus that I think you'll really enjoy.
It's an episode of our hit podcast, Wiser Than Me. I interviewed her back in June and we talked about it at length, so go back and listen to it if you haven't already.
Also, she is a badass. In Wiser Than Me, Julia talks with some of the most incredible older women of our lifetime, the ones that bring humor, honesty, and the kind of wisdom that only comes with age.
Women like Jane Fonda, Isabel Allende, Catherine O'Hara, and in this episode, tennis legend and activist, Billie Jean King. Billie Jean speaks with Julia about leadership, the power of

visualization, and her lifelong quest for self-acceptance. It's a wonderful conversation.

I can't wait for you to hear it. To enjoy more of Julia's inspiring stories, be sure to check out

Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts, if only to spend time with one of the coolest ladies I know. I don't exactly know how I became a sports fan because I was not an athlete when I was young.
I was born in New York, and early on, I learned to ride a tricycle.

And I was good at that trike.

I rode it in the hallway of our building.

How much fun is an apartment hallway on a tricycle?

It's like, you know, just imagine being on a racetrack up and down and up and down.

Although, as I say this, I am now remembering The Shining.

And, of course, not so fun in that movie.

But in reality, it is, in fact, a lot of fun.

But I lived in the city, and so I never learned to ride a bike until I was like, I don't know, eight? And everybody was riding bikes by then, you know, by eight. But I kind of missed that window, and I was so embarrassed because I had to have training wheels.
I was always unsure of myself on a bike, and I still am, really. I don't really love riding bikes.
They scare me. And bikes were the gateway to sports in elementary school.
And so I was just kind of fucked, and I just didn't play sports. I went to an all-girls school, and the sports that were available to us were field hockey, basketball, tennis, and gymnastics.
I did not excel at any of these things. At a girls' school, you know, the sports girls were popular.
And I think that's one of the great things about an all-girls school. Women are the very top of the sports world.
You cheer for girls. And all my best friends were athletic.
So I wanted in on that. So I tried gymnastics.
I even competed in an event. I think

this was in fifth or sixth grade or something. It was a big meet.
Is that what it would be, a gymnastics meet? I don't know. Anyway, I had to do this routine on the balance beam that I practiced and practiced.
So I got up on the beam, big smile and everything, probably pretending I'm Olga Corbett or whatever, and there is a crowd there.

And at that moment, I swear to Lord Jesus, the whole routine went out of my head completely. Just, I mean, just telling you this right now, it's making my palms sweat.
I could remember nothing. So I just started to make things up.
You know, in the movie version of this, I improvise this great routine and, you know, everybody applauds. But in real life, I got the lowest score ever on a beam.
It was like less than one out of 10, by the way. That's my big sports memory.
Oh, wait a minute. Here's another one.
Okay. So we had two gym teachers, Mrs.
Nevitt, who everybody loved, and Mrs. Moody, who is English.
And this is probably the best moment of my high school sports career. We were in PE, and it was tennis day.
And all of a sudden, I hear Mrs. Moody, the English one.
She goes, cover your eyes, girls, cover your eyes. And a bunch of boys were streaking.
Anybody remember streaking? Running around naked? It was the thing back then. It's a federal offense now, of course.
But anyway, a bunch of boys were streaking naked across the field by the tennis courts. I don't know who these boys were.
This was an all-girls school, so I suppose it was fertile ground for teenage male streakers. So, like, anyway, four boys go running by, and I did just as Mrs.
Moody instructed. I covered my eyes.
But I remember I was laughing so hard that, you know, I mean, it's not a great come-from-behind victory. It's not a championship game.
This is the kind of sports memory that I have. And the funny thing is that I consider myself

athletic now. I mean, sports and exercise are a huge part of my life, and our family life is totally sporty.
My kids are great athletes. My husband is a sports nut.
He's always riding a bike or a surfboard or kite foiling or snowboarding or something, and I work out literally every day, and I love it.

And growing up, my dad used to bet on a lot of sports.

He had a bookie and everything and he'd throw fits about the Mets and the New York Giants and the Knicks. And I paid no attention at all, except when he'd get an envelope full of cash, which was great.
That was always very exciting. But then my kids started playing high-level sports, and I started to see what it meant to them

and started to get to know the other kids and their personalities and the stories that came along with the game. And I became a pretty knowledgeable basketball fan, and I fell in love with college basketball and abracadabra.
I'm a sports fan. And, you know, in our current time when everything is fragile and unsteady and so complicated, and where so many things seem like lose-lose proposition, here are sports, which despite the dubious character of some of the participants and the corruption of the leagues and, you know, sports always come down to a definable contest.
There's a great line in that old Walter Hill B-movie cult film, The Driver. Bruce Stern, who's always so good, I love Bruce Stern, he plays this rough cop, and at one point he says, you know what I do first thing every morning? Read the sports page.
You know why? Best part of the newspaper. Winners, losers, how it happened.
Final score. I love that.
The clarity of that. God,

is that appealing. No bullshit.
You can't editorialize a final score. Winners, losers,

heroes, heartbreak, elation. What's not to love? That's why I'm so glad that today we get to talk

to one of the greatest of all champions, Billie Jean King.

Hi, I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me,

the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. Okay, let me set the stage here.
In 1966, when today's guest first reached number one in the world in tennis, women couldn't serve on juries in any of the 50 states. They couldn't get an undergraduate degree from almost any Ivy League college.
They couldn't run the Boston Marathon. They couldn't legally refuse sex with their husbands.
Of course, there were some things they could do. They could get fired for being pregnant.
They could be denied a credit card without a male cosigner. And they could play any sport they wanted, just none professionally except golf.
And that's in 1966, not 1866. Then along came Billie Jean King.
39 Grand Slams, 20 Wimbledon titles, a lifetime of battling for and winning women's right to equal pay, not just in tennis, but way, way beyond. She founded and led the Women's Tennis Association and is the first female athlete ever to receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
Not to mention over 90 million people worldwide watched the match we now call the Battle of the Sexes. I mean, seriously, folks, let that sink in.
Almost a quarter of Americans tuned in to watch her beat Bobby Riggs in 1973 in three straight sets, might I add. She's a sports icon.
She's an LGBTQ plus icon, a feminist icon. And let's face it, she's just basically iconic.
It's no exaggeration to say that Billie Jean King has changed the world. She is arguably the most important athlete of our time.
I could not be more thrilled to talk to a woman who is so much wiser than me, the one and only Billie Jean King. Hi.
Hi. After that, I'm going to stop.
Don't stop. You've got to keep going.
You've got to keep going. Oh, no.
I'm not done yet. Are you kidding? Everybody says, well, now that you're so old, what are you going to do? And I said, I'm not done yet.
You haven't even started. No, because I still have a lot of energy.
Well, so speaking of age, are you comfortable if we say you're real age? I love it. I'm 80.
I just turned 80 last November, November 22nd. But how old do you feel? I don't know what 80 is supposed to feel like.
I always ask myself, like, when I was 60, when I was 50, when I was 40, when I was 30, when I was 20, I'm like, what am I supposed to feel? I don't know. I am what I am.
The number is there, but it's really how is my health, I think. Right, yeah, your health.
Your health and how you feel and how do you feel. How do I feel physically, emotionally, mentally? You know, I ask myself those questions.
I mean, I still do therapy every week, psychotherapy. Psychotherapy.
What about physical therapy? I don't need physical therapy. Well, Ilana, my wife got me out during COVID to hit tennis balls again.
I hadn't for 20 years. I had a lot of knee operations and shoulder, everything.
And I said, okay, let's try because I just love it so much. I mean, I love to hit the ball.
So we do two or three times a week now. Lana was number one in the world in doubles and she still plays a lot.
So she's younger. She's in her late 60s.
So she hits the ball right to me. It's just amazing.
I meet people who are playing, and we have a 100 and under event category for people that are 100 and under. And it is hilarious.
You know what shot they use all the time is a drop shot because you can't move, and it's hilarious. But wait a minute.
Wait a minute. Who's the oldest? I don't know who the oldest one is.
I don't know. I've got to find out.
No, I don't know. You got to find out.
I will find out. Somebody's got to be in their 90s, right? Oh, for sure.
Oh, no, no. They're just like probably 98, 99 in there.
Yeah, for sure. Hey, so what's your relationship with your body like now, Billie Jean? I mean, has it changed as you've gotten older? Is your brain moving faster than your body? How does that work? Oh, the brain definitely goes a little faster than the body now, but my brain's slower, too.
I think I've always been in tune with my body. My brother, just so everybody knows, a lot of people do know this.
A lot of people do not. I have a younger brother.
He's five years, almost five years younger, four years, 11 months. Randy Moffitt, Moffitt's our birth name, and he played professional baseball for 12 years.
Most of those with the San Francisco Giants. But the third word we learned was ball.
You know, mommy ball, daddy ball. We just, we are infatuated.
They can roll it on the ground. They can throw it in the air.
We didn't care. And then as you get older, you start to realize it's science and art together.
And you want to be playing in front of people. You're a performer.
It's so much fun. It's very expressive.
It's like I love dance. I love ballet.
I love all that. I like to.
My son, Charlie, was a D1 athlete. He played basketball.
He had a teacher when he was in sixth grade. He had real trouble sitting still.
By the way, his first word was also ball. Uh-oh.
Right. And so he had this teacher who was incredibly intuitive, and she let him bounce a ball during class.
Smart. Smart, right? Very.
So he was able to concentrate as a result.

Tracy, shout out to Tracy.

That was incredible that she had him do that.

Yeah, brilliant.

That's very interesting because in school I got demoted with my grades when I did too well in sports because I'm a girl. Demoted with grades? Yeah, I got unsatisfactory at a sass factory in fourth grade because Mrs.
Polachick said that I had done too well in sports and, you know, kind of like braggy-o show, I guess, to her. I didn't say anything.
I just did it. And she said, I'm going to give you an unsatisfactory because of that.
Now, that would never – to a boy, he would be honored and – Yeah, he would be lauded for it. Correct.
That's the difference growing up, always getting negative feedback for doing what I wanted to do. But wait, how did your parents react to that when you got the unsatisfactory? They just let it go.
They said, just ignore it. Don't worry.
Just keep going. My mother didn't want me to play football and other sports because she wanted me to be a lady at all times.
And I said, Mommy, what does that mean? She said, Oh, you know. And I said, No, Mommy, I don't know what that means.
I just remember that. So when I was playing tennis, she was happier, happier.
But my dad understood totally. Basketball is our first love.
So he was a basketball player. And he got asked back in the 40s to join the NBA

and he didn't because there wasn't any money in it at the time

and he's very risk adverse, that generation with the Depression, World War II.

But no, he came home and became a firefighter,

which I love that he was a firefighter.

Oh, God.

Yeah, I love that too.

I loved it, but it was very difficult when he'd go to work

because I never knew if he was going to come back.

Thank you. love that he was a firefighter.
Oh, God. Yeah, I love that too.
I loved it, but it was very difficult when he'd go to work because I never knew if he's going to come back. So he was a proper hero, right? Well, to me, he was because he believed in me as much as my brother as well.
Yeah. I mean, he told me to go for it.
And everybody else around me was saying, huh? They didn't really care. But I really wanted to change the world through sports, through my sport.
I know you did. And that's really what, you know, it's, I wanted us to be a pro sport.
We were an amateur sport. It was so terrible.
I used to just go crazy. Hey, listen, let me ask you something just because I'm interested about this because you're obviously so fit.
And here you are 80 years old. You are.
You're right. I am fit for-old.
But I don't, you know, I won't. Come on.
Give me a break. Oh, I'm also lifting again.
I'm also doing a lot of weight work. This is my, okay.
So that's my question. What's your exercise regime? Besides playing tennis two to three times a week with Ilana, what else are you doing? Lifting weights? I've started lifting weights again.
I made a promise this year. Instead of doing it sporadically, I'd be pretty consistent, which I have been.
But we're still working full time. And work itself and traveling like we do, I think, also keeps me fit, also keeps my mind active, solving challenges, not problems.
And I am so happy I was in sports because it's made me strong. It's just helped me be strong in every way.
There's something. Well, it must be like you when you're acting.
I always wonder what actors go through. In terms of what? Like the pressure that's on you.
Like they say, let's go, you know, and you have to start the scene. And, of course, if it's not live, which I'm sure you're thrilled with Seinfeld and others, that you weren't live.
because I don't know how you guys get through a scene without cracking up at each other. Well, sometimes we did.
But having said that, there are endorphins that are, you know, the butterflies, whatever you want to call them. It's the same.
It's the same racing through your body when you're working. Yes.
I mean, even now talking to you, I can feel that. I want to have a good conversation with you.
I can feel that driver. That's in place.
And it can paralyze you, but it can also be a great fuel. And I usually use it for fuel, to tell you the truth.
I'm a fuel person. I like pressure.
I have a saying, pressure's a privilege. I know.
I love that saying. It is a privilege.
It is a privilege to have our opportunities for you to do what you have done and continue to do and what I do and what I did. And you know what I don't like about getting older is people give up on you.
Oh, come on. Who's given up on you? No, there's ageism involved.
There really is. Talk about that.
Talk about that. All right.
Let's take commercials on television. Let's just take commercials.
And not just television, obviously. It's everything now.
Yeah. I'd like people to, when they watch commercials, to really pay attention to who's in them.
Let's just talk about the ones athletes are in. It's usually male athletes.
They're older, but they are the ones who get the ads. If you see a woman, she's usually a lot younger, probably around 30.
They don't give us the same opportunities. Do you know how many times they'll have a woman athlete or any woman and they'll say she's such a great role model for women? Now, go to a male.
If a male's a role model, they don't say, oh, he's a great role model for men. They don't say he's a great role model.
He's a great a great role model role model i mean hello it's like everyone can be a role model for somebody if that's what the person likes like for me althea gibson was my first shero and she was the first to win and and i i didn't think of her that way i thought of her as the number one player and i want if you can see it you can be it right so i saw her live when I was 13, and I realized how good I'd have to be. And I went, oh, my gosh, I'm going to have to be that.
Oh, I'm going to have to practice so hard. Oh, my God.
But you knew you were going to do it. Yeah.
Well, I certainly hoped to. Of course, that was my goal since the time I was 11, to be number one in the world.
There was no question. Yes.
But still, to see Althea made a huge difference in my life in that she was number one. And if you can see it, you can be it.
You know how good you have to be and what made her great. That's right.
I'm just so struck by the realization that you had when you were 12. I mean, you saw that so many people were being excluded from tennis, and you decided to work on changing that?

No, it wasn't tennis.

It was life.

It was like watching Little Rock, the Little Rock 9,

or watching that black kids couldn't go to school with the white kids.

And I asked my dad, why is that?

That's ridiculous.

He says, well, it's the South.

And because of Southern California, that never happened to me. I mean, it didn't matter.
And that really bothered me. Yeah, of course.
And you also noticed that it was like only white people playing tennis, right, when you went to that country club? Yeah, absolutely. Everybody wore white clothes.
Everybody played with white balls, and everybody played with white. I said, that's not right.
This belongs to everyone. It's such a great sport.
Although I didn't have the know-how at 12 years old that there were black people playing, but I had never seen them. But they were.
They formed their own association, the ATA in 1916. So they had their tournaments, but they weren't allowed to play in the white tournaments.
And just like if you go to the US Open today, which a lot of people do, it's huge. It's one of the majors.
Yeah. And, well, black people weren't allowed to play until 1950, and that's when Althea was a player of the 50s, and that's when she won everything.
And she won the U.S. Nationals, now that would be the U.S.
Open. And she was the first to win.

Without her, there wouldn't have been an Arthur Ashe or Zena Garrison

or a Serena or a Venus or all these great players.

And so I think that was a good example.

It's time for a quick break, but don't worry.

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You don't need to let dreams of your new business pass you by this year, because established in 2025 has wondering where you think, how did that happen? Where did that sort of intuition that you had, where did that come from? Was that the culture in your family or what? I think my parents were good to each other, kind to each other, which I think was huge. Just watching how they related.
Not to say it was perfect or anything, God knows that, but they get into it, but not. They're very good to each other and very kind and thought about others.
But also, leaders don't choose followers. Followers choose leaders.
And a lot of times in sports, you need somebody to choose a team, for instance. And the kids always chose me to be the leader or the captain.
And I was on a bicycle committee, and I was only supposed to be the secretary, but they ended up always saying, you lead, you do this. I go, no, no, no, you do, you do.
Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, bicycle committee? Yeah, we had a plane in elementary school, which I have no idea what it means now. No, I think we had to keep our bikes in a certain area.
We had to take care of them. We had to put them in these racks.
You know, you got to just do the right thing and all that at the school. Keep them in the right place.
I love that. So I was on that committee.
But I was always pushed into leadership positions. And finally in Tennessee, when we're older, the players say, no, you're the one.
You're the one. I go, no, no, no.
Why not you? You know, typical girls, you know, when they're trying to go out to dinner, where do you want to go to eat? Oh, I don't care. What do you want? Where do you want to go? Right.
So if there's a guy in the group, I always ask the guy, go, where do you want? He goes, I want to go here. We go, great.
Someone made a decision. Because we're taught always to think about somebody else.
Okay. Always take care of the other.
So anyway, the players pushed me. Finally, I just remember one night just kind of daydreaming, lying down on the bed and just thinking, you know what? I'm going to not only accept this, I'm going to thrive on it because I'm meant to.
You know, I thought back to my epiphany as a kid, how I felt about everything. I go, what am I doing? I'm meant to do this.
And that was it. I just embraced it and absolutely decided to be the best leader I could be.
But to be a great leader to me means, for instance, it can't be a me. You have to be we, or you can't be I.
You have to be us. You have to include others in your – it's always about what can I do to help the people have a better life? How can I make it better for all of us? But particularly them first.
And that's what makes me tick is creating opportunities for others. That's really what I love.
Starting the Women's Sports Foundation, I founded it 50 years ago, and we have our 50th anniversary this year. I am so stoked.
We've given out over $100 million of just helping kids, especially girls of color. Also, we work with the National Women's Law Center over Title IX.
Those are the things that matter to me a lot. Have you ever very deeply doubted yourself as a leader? Oh, for sure.
You always wonder, especially when you didn't make it happen. You know, if I didn't make it happen, I go, God, where did I go wrong? But you know what? You're only as good as the team is.
Also, relationships are everything. They really are.
Yeah, right. It starts from that.
But when was an example where it didn't go the way you wanted and then you had doubts? What would be an example of that, Billie Jean? Well, the thing I love the most probably in tennis is World Team Tennis started in 1974. Ilana and I ended up running it over time, over the last part of it.
We sold it to billionaires because we thought we really need more money in this if we're going to do it right, and they wanted it. So we sold it to them, but they let it go eventually.
And so I was very upset with myself, and I thought, God, if I could start over. Of course, it's so easy in hindsight.
Sure. There wasn't the money in 74 that there is now.
Now people are investing in women's sports. They're actually investing in it, not helping us.
They think it's a great investment now for the very first time. Yeah, they think it's an economic opportunity, which it is, by the way.
It is. Which it is.
We're over 100 years late. I mean, it's like, it is really a lot of work and long-term investment.
But it's worth it because it gives women and girls a platform they didn't have. Yeah.
And to help these kids, I keep telling them every one of you is a leader in your town, your state, your country, your world. You, if you decide, whatever makes you happy to do things.
But look how much you can give back to kids coming up. But more importantly, it's about how can we help others that don't have as much.
And women should try to make a lot of money. I tell women to be ambitious.
We need to have more women on boards. Yes, we do.
We need more women on boards. We need more women in positions of leadership.
We need more women, period, making decisions. Oh, yeah.
Which, oh, God, this reminds me. By the way, I wanted to ask you about Renee Richards, the first transgender woman to play for the WTA back in the 70s.
Correct. Can you tell us that story about how you convinced the players at the WTA to allow Renee to come on board? Can you tell us that story? So good.
Yes. Ilana, my wife, she's the only person ever to play Renee as a male and Renee as a woman.
It is amazing. Okay.
That's, by the way, an incredible fact. But how did you get the other women on the tour to let Renee play? Tell that part.
Well, I went and talked to doctors. I said, how should we perceive this? I'm very ignorant.
And they said, no, she's considered a woman. I said, okay.
I said, do you think she should be able to play as a woman? And they said, yes. I called Renee, which for me is hard to call.
If you know me well, I'm very actually shy and I have a hard time calling people. Okay.
I do have a problem believing what you just said. Well, you can ask Alana.
She'll tell you. I sucked it up.
Also, it's not about me here. It's about others.
I'm good when it's about the team. Yeah, I hear that.
I called her and I said, can I listen to you and talk to you And she said, great. So we talked for four hours.
I listened to her and I went back to the women. I said, you guys, we really should let her play.
I've done some homework. And they said, no.
And I said, OK, I hear you. And I had this thing with the women that always used to work.
I finally figured it out. Which is? I said, how about if we try to let her play for two weeks? I would cut the time down really tight, short.
So it's like a sample. Yeah.
And it won't be too much for them psychologically, emotionally to handle. And they go, okay, we'll try that.
Okay. So she comes on the tour.
And within three or four days, they come on to you. She is so nice.
She is so great. Yeah.
Because they were worried about the locker room. You know, there's a lot of things that go through your mind that we're so ignorant we don't understand.
Oh, they loved her. They were fine.
They were fine after that. That was fine.
Now it's very different, though, because there's a lot more transgender athletes, and should they be allowed to play in elite competition? Some people are very emphatic about it, that they shouldn't. I'm on the side of inclusion is my first want.
So I don't want anyone to be excluded, so we've got to figure this out. Yeah, we've got to figure it out.
Because I don't want anyone not to be able to participate. That's what kills me.
So you've spent so much of your life making the world, as you continue to

do today, a better place for everybody else. Have you always taken care of yourself? Do you think

that this is a way of putting off taking care of yourself to a certain extent? Oh, for sure,

when I was younger. But I took care of myself when I was playing because it was part of the goal.
Like eat so many calories a day, work out, take good care of myself. I have to.
It's part of my job. I see.
I was very good then. But then I have an eating disorder, and I'm a binge eater.
Every morning I wake up, I tell myself I have an eating disorder. I still go to therapy.
I still think about it. It's interesting with the new injections, you know, with the ozimbics of the world.
It's very interesting because my doctor wants me to try it. Do you want to? I don't want to lose weight fast because I think it looks horrible.
I don't think it's healthy. I would like to lose it slowly.
But the important thing my therapist asked me, which I hadn't thought about, is that she said, has it quieted your mind? Because I've taken a few injections now.

I went, whoa, that's interesting.

Because with an eating disorder, I have like two voices in my head sometimes that argue.

And what do they say?

It's two sides.

Let's say I want a quart of an ice cream.

One side will say, yeah, baby, I'm going to have that ice cream no matter what.

And the other side says, no, don't do that.

It's not healthy.

You know, you don't need it.

Thank you. I'm having this ice cream.
So I have this discussion that goes on in my head, and sometimes it's very elevated. I mean, it really elevates.
And that's why I thought it was very interesting because we talk about this in eating disorders.

And it was such a great question because if it does do that.

Quiet the voices.

Quiet the voice.

If that's a part of it, now I'm on it because that would be really great because that gets exhausting and tiring.

And I don't want to fight over these things. It's like, God, do I have to go through this?

See you next time. that would be really great because that gets exhausting and tiring.
And I don't want to fight over these things. It's like, God, do I have to go through this again every day? It's not every day.
It's just different moments. And then I say, am I under more stress? Is that why this is happening? No, that doesn't follow at all.
No, I've tried that. So the point is, I still get it.
It doesn't matter. So I got to pay attention.
That's the main thing. When exactly did you start to sort of look after yourself? Really? I'd say when I was around 50.
And I was going through all my sexuality stuff like, oh my God, I was a mess. And that, I think, caused a lot of my eating disorder as well.
So what happened at 50? I went to Renfrew in Philadelphia back in 95-ish. And I went to therapy, and I lived there for six weeks.
And when you go there, you cannot communicate with the outside world, really. And I would go to therapy three times a week.
I would go to—there's also couples you have to go to, which Ilana about fainted. She's, what? She goes, what? Wait a minute.
Renfrew is an eating disorder clinic, is it? Yes. You go and live there.
Okay. Yeah.
And every Friday you have family. Oh, boy.
It's rough. And then you have every hour on the hour, you have a different movement therapy, sculpture therapy, everything therapy, whatever.
Did your parents come? They finally came after I just kept pleading with them to come. They came once.
And how did that go? It went all right. It went pretty good, except my dad leaned over to me, and he's so cute.
He goes, Billy, you're not like these other girls here. And I looked at him, and I go, Dad, I'm exactly like these girls here.
He started laughing. I started laughing.
we always had a sense you know we could always laugh at anything. We started howling and I go dad and there's this whole big group there.
No because he thinks I'm fine. He thinks I'm great and I go dad.
Oh. I go dad I'm just like them.
I'm struggling and he goes okay honey I hear you or, you'd call me. When things were good with sis, when it was Billie Jean, if I came through the door, I knew I was in big trouble.
What about your mom? What was that like to have her there? My mother had a harder time than my dad with my being gay or trying to figure out who I am, bisexual in the beginning. I don't know.
But no, and I noticed you call your mother mommy. I call my mother mommy, too, and I love calling my mother mommy.
I know. She also loved hearing it and receiving it.
Yeah, it's cozy, isn't it? Oh, it's like a big hug. It's just adorable.
It's like a big hug. That's exactly right.
And my boys call me mommy, and I love it. I love mommy.
I call my mommy mommy up to the end of her life. Yeah, and you call your daddy daddy, right? I call him daddy, yeah.
I call him daddy, yeah. Yeah.
Obviously, I'm 80. They're not alive anymore, unfortunately.
I wish they were. My brother and I talk about how fortunate we were to have them.
And they never really ask us if we won. So many parents go, did you win? Did you win? Did you win? I know.
They go, how'd your day go? Of course, if I lost, I was just crazed. I lost my match.
I lost my match. I was so bad.
My dad would go, I just have one question. Did you try your best? I said, of course I tried my best.
He goes, that's good enough. Yeah, you're lucky.
Yeah, I am lucky. I have to say, our son that I mentioned to you, he was a basketball player when he was young.
And if he lost a game, my husband and I would negotiate who was going to drive him home if we were there in separate cars, which you often heard. I love it.
That is so great. Because he would be screaming and writhing in the backseat if they lost.
Oh, I should have been with him. We would have had a great time.
He was hysterical. I mean, it was so fucking bad with him in the back seat.
I'm telling you. So how did you decide you wanted to be in entertainment? Can I ask you this? Yeah, you can ask me anything.
Yeah, I'd rather ask you questions, really. I just always wanted to be an actor.
Just like from my earliest memory, I was always performing. Yeah, you were.
Because your mother explained that. You asked her how was I as a girl, remember? In one of your interviews.
Yeah. When you talked to her, and she said you were dialogue, you know, you had dialogue going, and you had this going.
And she said you were always basically acting, but she didn't say it When we were in nursery school, they used to have nap time, you know?

And I would stand on my blanket, and I would dance for people during nap time.

So you liked dancing, too?

Well, I liked performing.

So my nap time dance was—it seemed to be a big hit among the nursery school students. It would have been great.
Oh, my God. I remember kindergarten.
That's what we're supposed to have, these little naps. I'm like, huh? I want to go out and play.
Can I go play basketball? Can I go play baseball, softball? Can I go? You know, I have to tell you, when I was in, I didn't play much tennis. Because the one thing that I get, when I start to compete physically in a sport, I get very anxious.
It's not for me. But I did go to a tennis camp when I was in eighth grade or seventh grade.
And they gave awards out at the end, and they gave me Miss Congeniality. Okay, but it's like, I could just see that.
But it's interesting that you feel anxious. And when I listen to you, how you feel when you perform, it's how I feel when I play tennis.
I don't feel that anxiety that you feel at the tennis camp at all. Yeah, right.
I want to be where I am. I love it.
I love the, I want. In fact, I'd love tennis to be more boisterous.
I think it's too quiet. I think we should have names on the back of the shirt.
I think we are just so out of it. Because, you know, they keep, I keep saying, you guys, everybody wants, I said, you're talking to 40-year-olds.
You're talking to 50-year-olds. I said, what about the 7, 10-year-olds? Their concentration spans seven seconds now.
I mean. Yeah, no kidding.
We've got to do different. But I've wanted this forever for our sport, okay, because I grew up in the other sports.
Like, hey, how about have, you know, and Wimbledon went backwards. They go, oh, no, we're going to go back to all white.
What? I said, oh, great. So now you turn on the i no no predominantly white anymore so so i turn it on i go oh great both people have white at each end okay great who's who it's ridiculous we're just it's ridiculous we're out to lunch how do you make that change that's actually an interesting change to try to you know i'm just gonna keep trying right because we have the bill Billie Jean King Cup, which is the World Cup of Women's Tennis now.
They renamed it after me,

and now we're involved in that. And we want to make that, like the Soccer World Cup, it's the World Cup of Tennis.
And the men's, it's Davis Cup, and we're working with them. And I think

there's a real culture to it that we are missing out on that would be fun for the audience. Because

when you perform, as you know, everything is about your audience. And that tennis court is our stage.
When I look at a tennis court, I go, oh, that's my stage. Yeah, baby.
Give me the ball, you know, type of feeling. And so when you walk out there, it's, you know, here's what most players think or athletes.
They think everyone's there for them. No, we're there for the audience.
Our job is to make the audience have a great day, a great moment. And when they go home at night, they go, God, that was great.
That was whatever. And I want to go back, or I want to take up this, or I want to do that.
It's like we are there for them. And everybody in tennis thinks the audience is there for them.
And I'm like, oh my God, you're so I, I, I. It's we, them, you know, I don't know.
That's how I think. So can we just, let's talk about for a second, female empowerment.
Have you always in your life felt equal to men? I've never felt equal to men. aha talk Talk about that, Billie Jean King.
Let me correct that. I do feel equal.
The world doesn't feel we're equal. That's what it is.
The world looks at us differently. I don't particularly look at us that much differently, just personally on a personal level.
But every single day I have to deal with... Some misogyny.
If I'm around a male athlete, I'm definitely in the background. And yet, people who are in the know sometimes will say, hey, bud, you should move over.
You're not even close to what she's done or something occasionally. But I don't.
We're second-class citizens all the time.

Yeah.

In pay, in attention.

The money we make is always less.

That's why I want women's sports to do well, because I know the more we make, the more people appreciate us, the more they think about every single job, though.

It's about thinking, oh, women deserve to have the same.

Yeah, we shouldn't have to be going through this, but the way the law, what you start, how you started the program is exactly what the challenge is. You know, not to be able to get a credit card when I was playing.
And also in 1966, actually, Title IX hadn't happened. Title IX happened in 72.
So I didn't get a scholarship. I didn't get paid to go to college.
I worked two jobs. And nobody gave, I think it had been reversed.
Let's say I'm the one that got to go to school, to college on a scholarship, and the guys didn't. I guarantee you everybody would be absolutely crazed that the men don't.
When the men don't get something, they go crazy. Well, they need to do that more and more for us.
And they're listened to. You know, it's funny.
I was talking to my friend Paula about this just yesterday, and we were saying, you know, it's interesting how many times in conversations, just in social conversation, if a man starts speaking and holding forth, right? Yeah, everybody shuts up. Everyone, right.
Everyone shuts up. And including myself, by the way, which I'm now, as I say this,

very irritated with myself about that. But there is this sort of unspoken,

well, that makes sense that he's bloviating. Right?

That's too big a word for me.

But isn't it a good word? No, isn't that a good word, though? Doesn't that totally describe what

it is?

Yeah, it does. But here's what happens in boards.
A woman will have an idea. She comes up with it.
But until the guy says exactly the same thing she did, they go, oh, Joe, that was a great idea, even though the woman had said it earlier. And they steal the ideas all the time and take credit for it.
I mean, and in my own life, I mean, of course, there's misogyny. Well, in entertainment, it's unbelievable.
It's unbelievable. And I had to struggle enormously and really push back to try to get credit as producer on various projects I've worked on.
And I got big time pushback despite the fact that I had had decades, decades of experience. Yeah, and you truly were the producer of the show, one of the producers, at least, of the show.
Exactly. Right.
And I got pushback from studios, from various other producers. I mean, it's infuriating, and it's also—sometimes it's just—I'm not going to lie, it's intimidating.
Yeah, it is. You know, because there is that little voice that says, oh, really? Do I not deserve this? Am I wrong to be asking? You know? I hope you don't get that that much anymore, that part.
No, I don't. I don't.
But it has been there. It's been there.
Look how much you've won. I mean, we'd say win in sports.
I mean, you know, all the Emmys and the awards.

Yeah.

I mean, you really have to suck it up.

I suck it up all the time.

I just— Yeah, I suck it up, too.

You can't.

You just have to keep quiet because you're not going to win.

You know that, too.

There's certain times you just go, okay, I'm going to have to let this one go.

I don't like it, but I'm going to have to let it go.

We'll get more wisdom from Billie Jean King after this super quick break. Stay tuned.
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Okay, let's go back in time for a second for our listeners. Okay.
So, it's 1973. That's Roe v.
Wade and the Equal Rights Amendment era. And women are in a real fight for equality at this time.
And you, Billie Jean, you get approached by this guy, Bobby Riggs, who had been a good player back in the day, but at this point was really more of a showman, right? And he challenges you to an internationally televised match, the Battle of the sexes. And this is after he'd already beaten the formidable Margaret Court.
So you had to win. And people, you really have to understand how big this was.
It was huge. And you played him.
And thank God, oh, my God, I am so happy you won that, Billie Jean. So am I.
It was big. It was a huge turning point, really.
Because Title IX had just been passed the year before. We were in our third year of women's professional tennis.
It was very crucial that I win because we had our tour. And I think if I'd lost, I don't know if the tour would have made it or not, because it really helped enhance what we were trying to do.
Also, men's professional tennis was young as well. The day after that match, you couldn't get on a tennis court.
That's when we had the big tennis boom. That's just for tennis.
But for society, finally in 75, we were allowed to get a credit card on our own. Whoopi.
Yeah, congratulations. But what it did is it piqued the interest of people.
Both genders are all genders, we'd say now, but then both genders, men and women. And women, it really helped their self-confidence.
I could not believe how they changed. They would run up to me, thanking me.
And then they go, you know what? I've been wanting a raise for 10 years, and I finally have the courage to ask for it. And I said, well, more importantly, did you get it? And she said, I did get it because girls are taught not to ask for what we want and need.
Right. We are taught do not go there.
Okay. Do not ask.
And they did. Well, there was a cultural shift because you won.
And did you know, did you keep in mind what was sort of on the line or did you have to sort of tuck that away and focus on the, how did that work in your head as you were actually playing? Well, I knew six weeks out and six weeks out, I'm a mess. I'm thinking about all the consequences.
I'm picturing myself running every ball down. I'm picturing myself making every shot.
I'm picturing bad calls. I picture how I'm going to react to that.
I'm not going to react. I'm going to stay.
I'm going to get in the next point right away. I'm going to stay focused.
I'm not going to talk. I picture myself making every shot, running every shot down.
I picture myself getting every serve in, everything, but also responding to things that aren't great. I also go out the day before and meet all the security guards.

I meet all the administrators. I meet everybody there.
And nothing is – this is Astrodome. Nothing is worse than not – is getting lost in an arena.
I get to know everybody. I went in the stands.
I went up to the top in the cheap seats to see what it would feel like as a fan. In other words, I totally prepare.
I'm really big on preparation. I think process is just how you win.
You stay in the now. You stay in the present.
Well, I know when you're acting, aren't you in the present? Totally. And when you don't do well, we're not.
Right. In that sense, it's like a meditation.
Correct. Because it's just a singular focus, right? Yes.
If you talk to other people that are the best in what they do, it always comes down to being in the present. I call it in the now.
Do you meditate, by the way? Yeah, I do meditate, yes. Every day? Probably, yeah.
I think so. And I can meditate for 15 seconds even help.
Yeah. And even in a match, if you're changing ends and you sit down, that's a great time to meditate for 15, 20 seconds.
You get about 90 seconds. So take a part of that and just meditate.
Just get your breathing down. Just be.
And yes, I can do that. But I can compartmentalize very quickly.
My brain goes very fast. I can compartmentalize really quickly, which I didn't realize others couldn't do, which I think has been a big help to me.
I also knew that if I were going, if this was going to be my life to try to make this world a better place, that I wouldn't win as many titles. And I was willing not to win as many titles if off the court, if it would make the world a better place, that to me is winning more than ever winning a match like against Bobby Riggs.
By the way, you've done both. You've made the world a better place and you've won a gazillion titles.
I'm not finished yet. I know you're not.
Okay. I'm not saying you're done.
No, I'm kidding you. So it sounds like, I mean, you are obviously an incredibly competitive person and certainly as a tennis player, but also as a businesswoman and as a leader, you have a sense of let's get it done, let's win this thing.
Am I right? Yes, you're right. And to me, what does that mean? Creating opportunities for the generation now and the generations that will follow.
It gives them opportunity. It gives them hope.
It gives them, and then get scholarships. It just helps them be a better player, a better person.
Better human being. Yeah, but because there's, you know, as an athlete, you're done early.
So what are you going to do with the rest of your life? Singers can keep singing. You can keep working in comedy forever.
Forever. We know that at a very young age, we cannot do that.
Okay. So what are we going to do? So those are the kinds of things we have to think about.
Yeah, exactly. Which, by the way, leads me to this question, though.
So this is from, I have a niece who's a D3 athlete at Emory. She plays soccer.
Emory's great. Yes, great.
And I texted her. Her name is Grace.
And I texted her yesterday. I said, Gracie, I'm talking to Billie Jean King tomorrow.
And I said, do you have any questions? And she said the following, to your point. She said, what advice do you have for young athletes transitioning into the working world and leaving behind life as student athletes? Because, you know, I think she feels, you know, sort of untethered without the sport that she's been playing her whole life.
Well, there's two things. Okay.
That she could think about. I can stay in soccer, but not play soccer.
There's a thousand jobs. That's another great thing.
There's jobs all around your sport if you want to stay in it. There's three things that Ed Willard and I, you know, our mentor, Ed Willard, who's the president of DuPont and CEO and dear friend who just passed.
He and I, I said to Ed, I need three things for graduations, but I need three things I can give them that will help them the rest of their lives.

I want to do this.

I want this to make it simple, easy.

The three things are, and they do not have to be in this order, relationships are everything.

So while Gracie's playing soccer, meet as many people as you can.

Get to know everyone.

Really enjoy them as human beings.

Get to know them because you never know. Okay? You just don't know.
And it's fun. I think it's fun.
And it's fun. Well, I love people, so it works for me.
But the second one, to keep learning and to keep learning how to learn. Like technology for my age group is rough.
Okay? So I'm always asking an eight-year-old, come over here, help me. Yes.
And then the third one is be a problem solver and an innovator. And that means in real life and in work or whatever you do.
And those three things, I think as I go through each day, I know I hit on those, at least one of them every day. This is great wisdom what you're imparting.
I mean, for real. Do you think that'll help Gracie, though? That's why I did it for her.
I'll let you know. I know.
I really appreciate it. I'm going to tell her.
But being in a sport, she can stay in the sport in a different capacity if she loves it, like doesn't want to leave soccer. But more importantly, what else does she want to do? But those three things I think will cover just about any direction she wants to go.
Okay. So now listen.
I want to ask you something. I'd like to know if there's something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21.
21, let me think where I was 21. Okay, 21's right before I won Wimbledon and all that.
I probably didn't understand enough at that time about being my authentic self. Like, who am I? I didn't know who I was yet.
And nowadays, I think that's the one great thing with today is that I think I would have had a chance, a bigger chance, a better chance to be my authentic self being a younger person today. Got it.
Not to say it wouldn't be difficult. Sure.
Or whatever, because we never know. I think trans people have a really hard time today.
I think the LGBT community is having a harder time again. I don't like it.
I think that we should just be kind and good to each other as human beings first. We all bleed red.
It doesn't matter what color our skin is. It doesn't matter how we self-identify sexually.
It doesn't matter. I always think when I meet somebody that I think of it as I go blank.
I try to go blank in my head to start with a blank piece of paper in a way before I start drawing who this person is. And that I really always want to think the best of them first.
And then if they prove differently over time, then that's a whole other discussion. But I think it's really important to start out with just being kind and good to whoever you meet and don't have any preconceived ideas about them.
And we're all biased, but the important thing is to do a gut check when we are. I always go, stop.
Start with nothing first. Just be kind and good unless they prove to you that they're just bad news or bad news.
Is there anything before we go, is there anything that you want me to know about aging? You know what I found? I think aging has been, in some ways, the greatest in some ways is tough. Tough physically, there's no question.
And also your mind, you know, mentally. I don't want to get dementia, for instance.
I'm scared of that because my parents had it. Things like that.
But I'll tell you what's really been fantastic.

What?

And that is emotionally I am so happy compared to my young days.

I cannot tell you.

Really?

But I've worked at it through therapy, through thinking,

through just going through tough times.

But I just emotionally am in such a great place now.

Oh, my God. How great is that? I hope you are now, too, but I don't know where everyone— Yes, I am.
No, I am. I'm in a very, you know, touch wood.
I'm in a very good place. It sounds like you are, yeah.
Yeah, I am. I totally am.
But I'm so happy that you say that. And you're not actually, you know, because on this show, we speak to older women about their wisdom.
And that's, you're not the first person who has said that. There's something that you're able to sort of sit comfortably in and let go of a lot at a certain age, which is a complete blessing, right? Yes.
And also, when you're older, you have perspective that you didn't have as a younger person. You have perspective.
You've lived longer.

Things don't bother you as much.

Right.

That's why kids love their grandparents so much.

Right.

Because a grandparent goes, yeah, and they say, oh, my God, I got to tell them this,

but oh, my God.

And then you tell them, they go, okay.

And they go, you're not upset already?

No.

Are you okay?

Whereas a parent, what?

It's so different. Yeah.

A lot of hand-wringing.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, completely.

Yeah, they're more understanding.

It's true.

It's completely true.

I can't thank you enough for talking with me today.

I really enjoyed every second of this conversation.

Yeah, me too.

It's been great.

I really appreciate it.

Say hi to everybody and tell your team of people, because everything starts with team, really.

Totally.

Tell them thanks again for all their help.

I really appreciate it.

And good luck in your lives.

Go for it.

Oh, my God.

Billie Jean King.

That woman is just so impressive.

That human is impressive.

Oh, my mom is going to love to hear about this one.

It's time to get her on a Zoom call. Hi, Mommy.
Hi, Love. How are you? Good.
It's rainy, rainy here. Is it raining there? I wish.
No, it's full sun. But we talked to Billie Jean King today.
Uh-huh. Wow.
And you would just love this woman, Billie Jean King, Mom. It was just, she is such a positive human being.
Let's talk about the Bobby Riggs match because, you know, you originally wanted to have this match with her. Billie Jean King is obviously a serious professional athlete, has no time for this bullshit match with Bobby Riggs.
And then Margaret Court, who was another professional tennis player at the time, and she did play him and she lost. And so then when Bobby Riggs came to Billie Jean and say, now I'm going to beat you, Billie Jean King realized what was at stake here.
She knew that the symbolism of this match was critical and that she had to win it. I mean, it was sort of a joke match, you know, in many ways.
And then it wasn't. Right.
Exactly. She won.
And then that sort of humorous way, it changed the flow of history. Well, it did, didn't it? I mean, she says that, generally speaking, women's self-confidence was lifted up in a way.
And it's funny because I think it really seeped into the win, really seeped into the culture in terms of feminism and women's empowerment and sense of self. And he was such a braggadocio.
And he was going to win and he was going to win and he was going to win. And that made it even more delicious, the fact that she just played the game.
And she played them and killed them in three straight sets.

Right, right.

And I asked her, does she feel equal to men? And she says she feels equal to men, but the world doesn't feel that way. What has been your experience as a woman in a world where men are in charge? But from my generation, I would say that one thing in the beginning, I just went along with it.
I mean, it just, I accepted that. And, you know, when I went to Duke, I went as a pre-med.
Well, all I had to do in the South at that time in the 50s was say I was going to go to med school. And they'd say, well, no, women don't go to med school.
And I said, oh, okay. So, I mean, that shows you that whatever they said was fine.
And it's only, I said to a friend of mine one time that I think my generation was sort of sideswiped by feminism, the feminist movement. In other words, it sort of happened to us.
We didn't, well, people like Billie Jean King made it happen, but most of us were sort of living with the reality of it and sort of keeping our skills and our power to ourselves. So women with other women could do all kinds of things, but it let a man enter the room and it was a very charged and different atmosphere.
And describe what that means. Like how is it charged and how is it different? The women were sort of the generators when they were together and talking.
But if a man came in, there was a kind of a giving over. It's like, oh, well, what we have to say, what do you have to say? What do you think? That's what's really important.
And then in so many instances, even now in a room, it'll be the men that, I mean, for a woman to be heard in a room, sometimes even, is like people sort of sit back and, I mean, it's sort of noticed. Not so much now, maybe, because, of course, we've had...
Well, maybe now, Mom. Maybe now.
I mean, I'm certainly aware of that. You know, I'm certainly aware of the fact that if, like in a writer's room, for example, male writers are much more comfortable taking charge and saying what's what and speaking up in a way that women aren't necessarily.
I mean, I realize that's a big generalization. Of course, it's not always the case.

But it's funny how it's sort of that inequity has tiny little roots that have filtered into the culture in a way that is poisonous without our even realizing it. I think that's really a wonderful way to put it.
And you know, what's interesting is that

when you get older, and I would say that there are more women now living longer than men,

and they are taking charge. I mean, they do, they take charge, and they don't think too much about

it. I mean, it's just like, I've sort of been waiting always, I've always done this, or I've

been waiting to do this, or they, it's within them as something that hasn't always been tapped. And they're just waiting for the guys to die.
And then they're gonna that's one way. But you know, one thing that I'm excited about you having talked to Billie Jean King is because she truly was iconic, is iconic.
I mean, she's a figure that represents so much right turning, correct being. And she seemed to have that like a motor in her that was just going to go.
You know, she's got the life force in her. And I say there's a woman that has used it all of her life.
All of her life. And for the greater good, by the way.
Well, thanks to her for, you know, women getting paid in athletics now. Thanks to women getting looked up to in athletics.
Women in athletics, period. Even, you know, back in the day, the only professional sport women could play was golf.
Yeah, right. That was it.
You can play any sport professionally, i.e. be paid for it.
And by the way, she loves that I call you mommy. Oh.
Because she calls her mom, or her mother's passed away now, but she called her mom mommy and her dad daddy, just like we do. I love that.
There's something so cozy about that. That's what I said to her.
She says it's like a giant hug. It is.
It is. And when you hear mommy, you know, like when you hear, I don't know what your boys call you, but when you- Mommy, they call me mommy or mama.
Yeah. Right.
It's just, it's too wonderful.

It's too wonderful. So keep it up for all, for everything.
A hundred percent mommy. I always

will. All right, mama, I'm going to say goodbye to you.
I love you. Thank you.
I love you too, honey. There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium.
Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show. Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts.
Follow the show at Wiser Than Me on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook too. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus.
This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamila Zara-Williams, Alex McCowan, and Oja Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer.
Rachel Neal is VP of New Content, and our SVP of Weekly Content and Production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Kramer, and me.
The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel and of course my

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