Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis-Dreyfus: Billie Jean King

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Speaker 12 Hi everyone, happy Thanksgiving.

Speaker 12 We're busy enjoying the holidays and stuffing our faces with turkey, so today we're bringing you a special conversation from Julia Louis Dreyfus that I think you'll really enjoy.

Speaker 12 It's an episode of her hit podcast, Wiser Than Me. I interviewed her back in June and we talked about it at length.
So go back and listen to it if you haven't already. Also, she is a badass.

Speaker 12 In Wiser Than Me, Julia talks with some of the most incredible older women of our lifetime, the ones that bring humor, honesty, and the kind of wisdom that only comes with age.

Speaker 12 Women like Jane Fonda, Isabelle Allende, Catherine O'Hara, and in this episode, tennis legend and activist Billie Jean King.

Speaker 12 Billie Jean speaks with Julia about leadership, the power of visualization, and her lifelong quest for self-acceptance. It's a wonderful conversation.
I can't wait for you to hear it.

Speaker 12 To enjoy more of Julia's inspiring stories, be sure to check out Wiser Than Me, wherever you get your podcast, if only to spend time with one of the coolest ladies I know.

Speaker 14 I don't exactly know how I became a sports fan because I was not an athlete when I was young. I was born in New York and early on I learned to ride a tricycle and I was good at that trike.

Speaker 14 I rode it in the hallway of our building. How much fun is an apartment hallway on a tricycle? It's like, you know, just imagine being on a racetrack up and down and up and down.

Speaker 14 Although as I say this, I am now remembering The Shining and of course, not so fun in that movie, but in reality is in fact a lot of fun.

Speaker 14 But I lived in the city and so I never learned to ride a bike until i was like i don't know eight

Speaker 14 and everybody was riding bikes by then you know by eight but i kind of missed that window and i was so embarrassed because i had to have training wheels

Speaker 14 i was always unsure of myself on a bike and i still am Really, I don't really love riding bikes. They scare me.
And bikes were the gateway to sports in elementary school.

Speaker 14 And so I was just kind of fucked and I just didn't play sports. I went to an all-girls school and the sports that were available to us were field hockey, basketball, tennis, and gymnastics.

Speaker 14 I did not excel at any of these things.

Speaker 14 At a girls school, you know, the sports girls were popular. And I think that's one of the great things about an all-girls school.
Women are the very top of the sports world. You cheer for girls.

Speaker 14 And all my best friends were athletic. So I wanted in on that.
So I tried gymnastics. I even competed in an event.
I think this was in fifth or sixth grade or something. It was a big meet.

Speaker 14 Is that what it would be, a gymnastics meet? I don't know. Anyway, I had to do this routine on the balance beam that I practiced and practiced.

Speaker 14 So I got up on the beam, big smile and everything, probably pretending I'm Olga Corbett or whatever, and there is a crowd there.

Speaker 14 And at that moment, I swear to Lord Jesus, the whole routine went out of my head completely. Just, I mean, just telling you this right now, it's making my palms sweat.
I could remember nothing.

Speaker 14 So I just started to make things up. You know, in the movie version of this, I improvise this great routine and, you know, everybody applauds.
But in real life,

Speaker 14 I got the lowest score ever on a beam. It was like less than one out of 10, by the way.
That's my big sports memory. Oh, wait a minute.
Here's another one. Okay, so we had two gym teachers, Mrs.

Speaker 14 Nevitt, who everybody loved, and Mrs. Moody, who was English.
And this is probably the best moment of my high school sports career.

Speaker 14 We were in PE and it was tennis day, and all of a sudden, I hear Mrs. Moody, the English one, she goes, cover your eyes, girls, cover your eyes.
And a bunch of boys were streaking.

Speaker 14 Anybody remember streaking?

Speaker 14 Running around naked? It was the thing back then. It's a federal offense now, of course.

Speaker 14 But anyway, a bunch of boys were streaking naked across the field by the tennis courts i don't know who these boys were this was an all-girls school so i suppose it was fertile ground for teenage male streakers so like anyway four boys go running by and i did just as mrs moody instructed i covered my eyes but i remember i was laughing so hard that you know i mean it's not a great come-from-behind victory it's not a championship game this is the kind of sports memory that I have.

Speaker 14 And the funny thing is that I consider myself athletic now. I mean, sports and exercise are a huge part of my life, and our family life is totally sporty.
My kids are great athletes.

Speaker 14 My husband is a sports nut. He's always riding a bike or a surfboard or

Speaker 14 kite

Speaker 14 foiling or snowboarding or something. And I work out literally every day and I love it.

Speaker 14 And growing up, my dad used to bet on a lot of sports. He had a bookie and everything and he'd throw fits about the Mets and the New York Giants and the Knicks.

Speaker 14 And I paid no attention at all except when he'd get an envelope full of cash, which was great. That was always very exciting.

Speaker 14 But then my kids started playing high-level sports, and I started to see what it meant to them, and started to get to know the other kids and their personalities, and the stories that came along with the game.

Speaker 14 And I became a pretty knowledgeable basketball fan, and I fell in love with college basketball. And

Speaker 14 Abra cadabra. I'm a sports fan.

Speaker 14 You know, in our current time when everything is fragile and unsteady and so complicated and where so many things seem like lose-lose proposition, here are sports, which despite the dubious character of some of the participants and the corruption of the leagues and, you know, sports always come down to a definable contest.

Speaker 14 There's a great line in that old Walter Hill B movie cult film, The Driver. Bruce Stern, who's always so good.
I love Bruce Stern. He plays this rough cop.

Speaker 14 And at one point, he says, you know what I do first thing every morning? Read the sports page. You know why? Best part of the newspaper.
Winners, losers, how it happened. Final score.

Speaker 14 I love that. The clarity of that.
God, is that appealing? No bullshit. You can't editorialize a final score.
Winners, losers, heroes, heartbreak, elation. What's not to love?

Speaker 14 That's why I'm so glad that today we get to talk to one of the greatest of all champions, Billie Jean King.

Speaker 14 Hi, I'm Julia Louis Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me.

Speaker 14 Okay, let me set the stage here. In 1966, when today's guest first reached number one in the world in tennis, women couldn't serve on juries in any of the 50 states.

Speaker 14 They couldn't get an undergraduate degree from almost any Ivy League college. They couldn't run the Boston Marathon.
They couldn't legally refuse sex with their husbands.

Speaker 14 Of course, there were some things they could do. They could get fired for being pregnant.
They could be denied a credit card without a male co-signer.

Speaker 14 And they could play any sport they wanted, just none professionally, except golf. And that's in 1966, not 1866.

Speaker 14 Then, along came Billie Jean King. 39 Grand Slams, 20 Wimbledon titles, a lifetime of battling for and winning women's right to equal pay, not just in tennis, but way, way beyond.

Speaker 14 She founded and led the Women's Tennis Association and is the first female athlete ever to receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

Speaker 14 Not to mention over 90 million people worldwide watched the match we now call the Battle of the Sexes. I mean, seriously, folks, let that sink in.

Speaker 14 Almost a quarter of Americans tuned in to watch her beat Bobby Bobby Riggs in 1973 in three straight sets, might I add. She's a sports icon.

Speaker 14 She's an LGBTQ plus icon, a feminist icon, and let's face it, she's just basically iconic. It's no exaggeration to say that Billie Jean King has changed the world.

Speaker 14 She is arguably the most important athlete of our time. I could not be more thrilled to talk to a woman who is so much wiser than me, the one and only Billie Jean King.

Speaker 16 Hi. Hi.

Speaker 13 After that, I'm going to stop.

Speaker 14 Don't stop. You got to keep going.
You got to keep going. Oh, no.

Speaker 13 I'm not done yet. Are you kidding? Everybody says, well, now that you're so old, you know, what are you going to do? And I said, I'm not done yet.

Speaker 14 You haven't even started.

Speaker 13 I still have a lot of energy.

Speaker 14 Well, so, speaking of age, are you comfortable if we say?

Speaker 13 I love it. I never, I'm 80.
I just turned 80 last November. November 22nd.

Speaker 14 But how old do you feel?

Speaker 13 I don't know what 80 is supposed to feel like.

Speaker 13 I always ask myself, like, when I was 60, when I was 50, when I was 40, when I was 30, when I was 20, I'm like, what am I supposed to feel? I don't know. I am what I am.

Speaker 13 The number is there, but it's really how it's my health, I think. Right.
Yeah. Your health.
Your health and how you feel. And how do you feel? How do I feel physically, emotionally, mentally?

Speaker 13 You know, I ask myself those questions. I mean, I still do therapy every week.
Psychotherapy.

Speaker 14 Psychotherapy.

Speaker 13 Talk about physical therapy. I don't need physical therapy.
Well, a lot of my wife got me out during COVID to

Speaker 13 hit tennis balls again. I hadn't for 20 years.
I had a lot of knee operations and shoulder, everything. And I said, okay, let's try because I just love it so much.

Speaker 13 I mean, I love to hit the ball. So we do two or three times a week now.
She hits, you know, Lana was number one in the world and doubles, and she still plays a lot. So

Speaker 13 she's younger. She's in her late 60s.
So she hits the ball right to me.

Speaker 13 It's just amazing. I meet people who are playing, and we have a 100 and under

Speaker 13 event category for people that are 100 and under, and it is hilarious. You know, what shot they use all the time is a drop shot because you can't move, and it's hilarious.

Speaker 14 But wait a minute, wait a minute, who's the oldest?

Speaker 13 I don't know who the oldest one is.

Speaker 13 I don't know. I've got to find out.
No, I don't know.

Speaker 14 You got to find out.

Speaker 13 I will find out.

Speaker 14 Somebody's got to be in their 90s, right?

Speaker 13 Oh, for sure. Oh, no, no.
They're just like probably 98, 99 in there. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 14 Hey, so what's your relationship with your body like now, Billie Gene? I mean, has it changed as you've gotten older? Is your brain moving faster than your body? How does that work?

Speaker 13 Oh, the brain definitely goes a little faster than the body now, but my brain's slower too.

Speaker 13 I think I've always been in tune with my body.

Speaker 13 My brother, just so everybody knows, a lot of people do know this, a lot of people do not. I have a younger brother.
He's five years, almost five years younger, four years, 11 months.

Speaker 13 Randy Moffat, Moffat's our birth name, name and he played professional baseball for 12 years most of those with this the san francisco giants but the third word we learned was ball you know it's mommy ball daddy ball we just we are infatuated they can roll it on the ground they can throw it in the air we didn't care uh and then if you as you get older though you start to realize it's science and art together um and you want to be playing in front of people you're a performer uh it's so much fun it's very expressive it's like i love dance.

Speaker 16 I love ballet.

Speaker 13 I love all that. I like to.

Speaker 14 My son, Charlie, is a

Speaker 14 D1 athlete. He played basketball.
He had a teacher when he was in sixth grade. He had real trouble sitting still.
By the way, his first word was also ball. Uh-oh.
And right.

Speaker 14 And so he had this teacher who was incredibly intuitive, and she let him bounce a ball during class.

Speaker 13 Smart.

Speaker 14 Smart, right? Very. So he was able to

Speaker 14 concentrate as a result. Tracy, shout out to Tracy.
That's

Speaker 13 brilliant.

Speaker 13 Yeah. Brilliant.
That's very interesting because in school I got demoted with my grades when I did too well in sports because I'm a girl.

Speaker 14 Demoted with grades?

Speaker 13 Yeah, I got unsatisfactory instead of satisfactory in fourth grade because

Speaker 13 Ms. Polichick said that I had done too well in sports and, you know, kind of like braggy oh show, I guess, to her.

Speaker 13 I didn't say anything. I just did it.
And she said, I'm going to give you an unsatisfactory because of that. Now, that would never, to a boy, he would be honored and yeah, he would be lauded for it.

Speaker 14 Correct.

Speaker 13 So that's the difference growing up, always getting negative feedback for doing what I wanted to do.

Speaker 14 But wait, how did your parents react to that when you got the unsatisfactory?

Speaker 13 They just let it go. They said, just ignore it.
Don't worry, just keep going.

Speaker 13 My mother did not want me to play football and other sports because she wanted me to be a lady at all times. And I said, Mommy, what does that mean? She said, oh, you know.

Speaker 13 And I said, no, mommy, I don't know what that means.

Speaker 13 I just remember that. So when I was playing tennis, she was happier, happier.

Speaker 13 But my dad understood totally. He was, basketball is our first love.
So he was a basketball player.

Speaker 13 And he got asked back in the 40s to join the NBA and he didn't because there wasn't any money in that time. And he's very risk adverse that generation with the Depression, World War II.

Speaker 13 But no, he came home and became a firefighter, firefighter,

Speaker 13 which I love that he was a firefighter. Oh, God.

Speaker 14 Yeah, I love that too.

Speaker 13 I loved it, but it was very

Speaker 13 difficult when he'd go to work because I never knew if he's going to come back.

Speaker 14 So he was a proper hero, right?

Speaker 13 Well, to me, he was because he believed in me as much as my brother as well. Yeah.
I mean, he told me to go for it. And everybody else around me was saying, huh?

Speaker 13 They didn't really care, but I really wanted to change the world through sports, through my sports. I know you did.
And that's really what, you know, it's, I wanted us to be a pro sport.

Speaker 13 We were an amateur sport. It was so terrible.
I used to just go crazy.

Speaker 14 Hey, listen, let me ask you something just because I'm interested about this because you're obviously so fit. And here you are, 80 years old.
You are.

Speaker 13 You're right. I am fit for an 80-year-old, but I don't, you know, I.
Come on, give me a break. Oh, I'm also lifting again.
I'm also doing a lot of weight work.

Speaker 14 This is what, okay, so that's my question. What's your exercise regime? Besides playing tennis two to three times a week week with Ilana, what else are you doing? Lifting weights?

Speaker 13 I've started lifting weights again. I made a promise this year, instead of doing it sporadically, I'd be pretty consistent, which I have been.

Speaker 13 But we're still working full-time.

Speaker 13 And work itself and traveling like we do,

Speaker 13 I think also keeps me fit, also keeps my mind active, solving challenges, not problems.

Speaker 13 And

Speaker 13 I am so happy I was in sports because it's made me strong.

Speaker 13 It's just helped me be strong in every way. There's something, well, it must be like you when you're acting.
I always wonder what actors go through.

Speaker 14 In terms of what?

Speaker 13 Like the pressure that's on you. Like they say, let's go, you know, and you have to start the scene.
And of course, if it's not live,

Speaker 13 which I'm sure you're thrilled with, Seinfeld and others, that you didn't weren't live because I don't know how you guys get through a scene without cracking up at each other.

Speaker 14 Well, sometimes we did, but having said that, there are endorphins that are, you know, the butterflies, whatever you want to call them.

Speaker 14 racing through it's the same racing through your body when you're working yes i mean even now talking to you i can feel that you know i want to have a good conversation with you i can feel that driver you know that's in place and uh it can paralyze you but it can also be a great fuel and i usually use it for fuel to tell you the truth i'm a fuel person i like pressure i have a saying pressure is a privilege

Speaker 13 i know i love that saying it is a privilege it is a privilege to have our opportunities opportunities for you to do what you have done and continue to do and what I do and what I did.

Speaker 13 And you know what I don't like about getting older is people give up on you.

Speaker 14 Oh, come on. Who's giving up on you?

Speaker 13 No, there's ageism involved. There really is.
Talk about that. Talk about that.
All right, let's take commercials on television. Let's just take commercials

Speaker 13 and not just television, obviously. It's everything now.
Yeah. I'd like people to, when they watch commercials, to really pay attention to who's in them.

Speaker 14 Let's just talk about the ones athletes are in.

Speaker 13 It's usually male athletes. They're older, but they are the ones who get the ads.
If you see a woman, she's usually a lot younger, probably around 30. They don't give us the same opportunities.
Right.

Speaker 13 Do you know how many times they'll have a woman athlete or any woman and they'll say, she's such a great role model for women? Now, go to a male.

Speaker 13 If a male's a role model, they don't say, oh, he's a great role model for men. They don't say he's a great role model.

Speaker 16 He's a great role model.

Speaker 13 I mean, hello. It's like like everyone can be a role model for somebody if that's what the person likes.
Like for me, Althea Gibson was my first Shero.

Speaker 13 And she was the first to win. And I didn't think of her that way.
I thought of her as the number one player. And if you can see it, you can be it.

Speaker 13 So I saw her live when I was 13, and I realized how good I'd have to be. And I went, oh, my gosh.
I'm going to have to be that. Oh, I'm going to have to practice so hard.
Oh, my God.

Speaker 14 But you knew you were going to do it.

Speaker 13 yeah well i certainly hope to i of course i that was my goal since the time i was 11 to be number one in the world there was no question but

Speaker 13 still still to see althea made a huge difference in my life in that um she was a number one and if you can see it you can be it you know how good you have to be and what made her great

Speaker 14 I'm just so struck by the realization that you had when you were 12. I mean, you saw that so many people were being excluded from tennis and you decided to work on changing that.

Speaker 13 No, it wasn't tennis. It was life.
It was like watching Little Rock and like the Little Rock Nine or watching that black kids couldn't go to school with the white kids.

Speaker 13 And I asked my dad, why is that? That's ridiculous. He says, well, it's the South.

Speaker 13 And because it's Southern California, that never happened to me. I mean, I, you know, it didn't matter.

Speaker 13 And that really bothered me.

Speaker 14 Yeah, of course. And you also noticed that it was like only white people playing tennis, right? When you went to that country, absolutely.

Speaker 13 I, I just, Everybody wore white clothes. Everybody played with white balls and everybody played with white.
I said, that's not right. This belongs to everyone.
It's such a great sport.

Speaker 13 Although I didn't have the know-how at 12 years old that there were black people playing, but I had never seen them.

Speaker 13 But they were. They formed their own association, the ATA, in 1916.
So they had their tournaments, but they weren't allowed to play in the white tournaments. And just like if you go to the U.S.

Speaker 13 Open today, which a lot of people do, it's huge. It's one of the majors.

Speaker 14 Yeah.

Speaker 13 And, well, black people weren't allowed to play until 1950. And that's when Althea was a player of the 50s.
And that's when she won everything. And she won the U.S.
Nationals.

Speaker 13 Now that would be the U.S. Open.
And she was the first to win. Without her, there wouldn't have been a...
Arthur Ash or a Zena Garrison or a Serena or Venus or all these great players.

Speaker 13 And so I think that was a good example.

Speaker 14 It's time for a quick break, but don't worry. there's more with Billie Gene King in just a bit.

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Speaker 14 But what I'm so struck by is that you were so sensitive to sort of the disenfranchised at a very young age. And I'm wondering where you think, how did that happen?

Speaker 14 Where did that sort of intuition that you had, where did that come from? Was that the culture in your family?

Speaker 13 I think my parents were good to each other, kind to each other, which I think was huge.

Speaker 13 Just watching how they related.

Speaker 13 Not to say it was perfect or anything. God knows that, but they get into it, but not.

Speaker 13 They're very good to each other and very kind and thought about others. But also, you know, leaders don't choose followers.
Followers choose leaders.

Speaker 13 And a lot of times in sports, you need somebody to choose a team, for instance.

Speaker 13 And the kids always chose me to be the leader or the captain.

Speaker 13 And I was on a bicycle committee and they I was only supposed to be the secretary, but they ended up always saying,

Speaker 13 you lead, you do this. I go, no, no, no, you do.
Wait a minute.

Speaker 14 Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
Bicycle committee. Yeah, we had a

Speaker 13 in in elementary school which i have no idea what it means now no i think we had to keep our bikes in a certain area we had to take care of them we had to put them in these racks you know you got to just do the right thing and all that at the school keep them in the right place i love that so um i was on that committee and then you know but i was always i was always pushed into leadership positions and Finally, in Tennessee, even when we're older, you know, the players say, well, no, you're the one.

Speaker 13 You're the one. I go, no, no, no.
Why not you? Why don't I, you know, typical girls, you know, when they're trying to go out to dinner, where do you want to go to eat? Oh, I don't care.

Speaker 13 What do you want? Where do you want to go? What do you want? So, if there's a guy in the group, I always ask the guy, Where do you want? He goes, I want to go here.

Speaker 13 We go, Great, someone made a decision. Cause we're taught always to think about somebody else.
Okay, always take care of the other.

Speaker 13 So,

Speaker 13 anyway, the players pushed me. And finally, I just remember one night, just kind of daydreaming, lying down on the bed, and just thinking, You know what?

Speaker 13 I'm going to not only accept this, I'm going to thrive on it because I'm meant to. You know, I thought back to my epiphany as a kid, how I felt about everything.
I go, what am I doing?

Speaker 13 I'm meant to do this. And

Speaker 13 that was it. I just embraced it and absolutely decided to be the best leader I could be.
But to be a great leader to me means, for instance, it can't be a me. You have to be we or you can't be I.

Speaker 13 You have to be us, you know, or

Speaker 13 you have to include others in your thing. It's always about what can I do to help the people have a better life? How can I make it better for all of us, but particularly them first?

Speaker 13 And that's what makes me tick is creating opportunities for others. That's really what I love.

Speaker 13 Like starting the Women's Sports Foundation, I founded it 50 years ago, and we have our 50th anniversary this year. I am so stoked.

Speaker 13 We've given out over $100 million of just helping kids, especially girls of color. Also, we work with the National Women's Law Center over Title IX.

Speaker 13 Those are the things that matter to me a lot.

Speaker 14 Have you ever very deeply doubted yourself as a leader?

Speaker 13 Oh, for sure. You always wonder,

Speaker 13 especially when you didn't make it happen. You know, if I didn't make it happen, I go, God, where did I go wrong?

Speaker 13 But you know what?

Speaker 13 You're only as good as the team is.

Speaker 13 Also, relationships are everything. They really are.

Speaker 14 Yeah, right. It starts from that.
But, like, when was an example where it didn't go the way you wanted and then you had doubts? What would be an example of that, Billie Jean?

Speaker 13 Well, the thing I love the most probably in tennis is World Team Tennis started in 1974.

Speaker 13 Ilana and I ended up running it over time, over the last part of it. We sold it to billionaires because we thought we really need more money in this if we're going to do it right.
And they wanted it.

Speaker 13 So we sold it to them, but you know, they let it go eventually. And so I was very upset with myself.
And I thought, God, if I could start over, of course, it's so easy in hindsight. You know,

Speaker 13 there wasn't the money in 74 that there is now.

Speaker 13 Now people are investing in women's sports. They're actually investing in it, not helping us.
They think it's a great investment now for the first time. Yeah, they think it's the first time.

Speaker 14 It's an economic opportunity. Yes, which it is, by the way.

Speaker 13 It is. Which it is.
We're over 100 years late.

Speaker 13 I mean, it's like, it is really a lot of work in long-term long-term investment, but it's worth it because, because it gives women and girls a platform they didn't have.

Speaker 13 And to help these kids, I keep telling them, every one of you is a leader in your town, your state, your country, your world.

Speaker 13 You, if you decide, whatever makes you happy to do things, but look how much you can give back. to kids coming up.
But more importantly, it's about how can we help others that don't have as much.

Speaker 13 And women should try to make a lot of money. I tell women to be ambitious.
We need to have more women on boards.

Speaker 14 Yes, we do. We need more women on boards.
We need more women in positions of leadership.

Speaker 14 We need more women, period, making decisions. Oh, yeah.
Which, oh, God, this reminds me.

Speaker 14 By the way, I wanted to ask you about Renee Richards, the first transgender woman to play for the WTA back in the 70s. Correct.

Speaker 14 Can you tell us that story about how you convinced the players at the WTA to allow Renee to come on board?

Speaker 18 Can you tell us that story?

Speaker 2 So good. Yes.

Speaker 13 Ilana, my wife,

Speaker 13 she's the only person ever to play Renee as a male and Renee as a woman. I keep saying, it is amazing.

Speaker 14 Okay, that's, by the way, an incredible fact. But tell, I mean, how did you get the other women on the tour to let Renee play? Tell that part.

Speaker 13 Well, I went and talked to doctors. I said, how should we perceive this? I'm very ignorant.

Speaker 13 And they said, no, she's considered a woman. I said, okay.

Speaker 13 I said, do you think she should be able to play as a woman? And they said, yes.

Speaker 13 I called Renee, which for me is hard to call. If you know me well, I'm very actually shy and I have a hard time calling people.

Speaker 13 Okay,

Speaker 14 I do have a problem believing what you just said.

Speaker 13 Well, you can ask Alana. She'll tell you.
I sucked it up.

Speaker 13 And also, it's not about me here. It's about others.

Speaker 13 I'm a good one. It's about the team.
Okay. Yeah, I hear that.
And

Speaker 13 I called her and I said, can I listen to you and talk to you? And she says, great. So we talked for four hours.
I listened to her and I went back to the women.

Speaker 13 I said, you guys, we really should let her play. And according, I've gone to the doc.
I've done some homework.

Speaker 13 And they said, no.

Speaker 13 And I said, okay, I hear you. And I had this thing with the women that always used to work.
I finally figured it out.

Speaker 14 Which is?

Speaker 13 I said, how about if we try to let her play for two weeks? I would cut. the time down really tight, short.
So it's like a sample. Yeah.

Speaker 13 You know, and like, it won't be too much for them psychologically, emotionally to handle. And they go, okay, we'll try that.
Okay. So she comes on the tour.

Speaker 13 And within three or four days, they come on you. She is so nice.
She is so great. Yeah.
Because they were worried about the locker room.

Speaker 13 You know, there's a lot of things go through your mind that we're so ignorant we don't understand. Oh, they loved her.
They were fine. They were fine after that.
That was fine.

Speaker 13 Now it's very different, though, because there's a lot more transgender athletes.

Speaker 13 And should they be allowed to play in elite competition? Some people are very emphatic about it, that they shouldn't. I'm on the side of inclusion is my first want.

Speaker 13 And so I don't want anyone to be excluded. So we got to figure this out.

Speaker 14 Yeah, we got to figure it out.

Speaker 13 Because I don't want anyone not to be able to participate. That's what kills me.

Speaker 14 So you've spent so much of your life making the world, as you'd continue to do today, a better place for everybody else. Have you always taken care of yourself?

Speaker 14 Do you think that this is a way of putting off taking care of yourself to a certain extent?

Speaker 13 Oh, for sure. When I was younger, but I took care of myself when I was playing because it was part of the goal.
Like eat so many calories a day, work out, take good care of myself. I have to.

Speaker 13 It's part of my job. I see.
I was very good then. But then, you know, I have an eating disorder and I'm a binge eater.
Every morning I wake up, I tell myself I have an eating disorder.

Speaker 13 I still go to therapy. I still think about it.
It's interesting with the new injections, you know, with the Onzimbics of the world. And it's very interesting because

Speaker 13 my doctor wants me to try it.

Speaker 14 Do you want to?

Speaker 13 I don't want to lose weight fast because I think it

Speaker 13 looks horrible. I don't think it's healthy.
I would like to lose it slowly, but the important thing my therapist asked me, which I hadn't thought about, is that she said, has it quieted your mind?

Speaker 13 Because I've taken a few injections now.

Speaker 13 I went, whoa, that's interesting. Because with an eating disorder, I have like two voices in my head sometimes that argue.

Speaker 14 And what do they say?

Speaker 13 It's two sides. Let's say I want a quart of an ice cream.
One side will say, yeah, baby, I'm going to have that ice cream no matter what.

Speaker 13 And the other side says no don't do that it's not healthy you know you don't need it you're not gonna miss it the other side goes screw you I'm having this ice cream so you have I have this this this discussion that goes on in my head and sometimes it's very elevated I mean it really elevates

Speaker 13 and that's why I thought it was very interesting because this is we talk about this in eating disorders and

Speaker 13 It was such a great question because if it does do that,

Speaker 14 quiet the voices.

Speaker 13 Quiet the voice. If that's a part of it,

Speaker 13 now I'm on it because

Speaker 13 that would be really great. Because that gets exhausting and tiring.
And I don't want to fight over these things. You know, it's like, God, do I have to go through this again every day?

Speaker 13 It's not every day.

Speaker 13 It's just different moments. And then I say, are I under more stress? Is that why this is happening? No, that doesn't follow at all.
No, I've tried that. So the point is, I still get it.

Speaker 13 It doesn't matter. So I got to pay attention.
That's the main thing.

Speaker 14 When exactly did you start to sort of look after yourself? Take

Speaker 13 care. I'd say when I was around 50.
And I was going through all my sexuality stuff. Like, oh my God, it was a mess.
And that, I think, caused a lot of my eating disorder as well.

Speaker 14 So what happened at 50?

Speaker 13 I went to Renfrew in Philadelphia back in 95-ish.

Speaker 13 And I went to therapy, and I lived there for six weeks. And

Speaker 13 when you go there, you cannot communicate with the outside world, really. And I I would go to therapy three times a week.
I would go to,

Speaker 13 there's also couples you have to go to, which Ilana about fainted. She's, what?

Speaker 16 She goes, what?

Speaker 14 Wait a minute. Renfrew is an eating disorder clinic, is it?

Speaker 13 Yes, uh-huh. You go and live there.
Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 13 And every Friday you have family.

Speaker 2 Oh, boy.

Speaker 13 It's rough. And then you have every hour on the hour, you have a different

Speaker 13 like movement therapy, sculpture therapy,

Speaker 13 everything therapy, whatever.

Speaker 14 Did your parents come?

Speaker 13 They finally came after I just kept pleading with them to come. They came once.

Speaker 14 And how did that go?

Speaker 13 It went all right. It went pretty good, except my dad leaned over to me and he's so cute.
He goes, Billy, you're not like these other girls here.

Speaker 13 And I looked at him and I go, dad, I'm exactly like these girls here. What? What?

Speaker 13 He started laughing. I started laughing because we always had a sense, you know, we always laugh at anything.

Speaker 13 We started howling. And I go, wait.
And there's a signal. What do you mean?

Speaker 13 No, because he thinks I'm fine. He thinks I'm great.
And I go, dad. Oh.
I go, dad, I'm just like them. I'm struggling.
And he goes, okay, honey, I hear you.

Speaker 13 Or sis, you'd come when things were good with sis, when it was Billie Jane. If I came to the door, I knew I was in big trouble.

Speaker 14 What about your mom? What was that like?

Speaker 13 My mother had a harder time than my dad with my being gay or. trying to figure out who I am bisexual in the beginning.
I don't know. But no, and I noticed you call your mother mommy.

Speaker 13 I call my mother mommy too, and I love calling my mother mommy. She loves it.
I know she also loved hearing it and receiving it.

Speaker 14 Yeah, it's cozy, isn't it?

Speaker 13 Oh, it's so it's like a big hug. It's just adorable.

Speaker 14 It's like a big hug. That's exactly right.
And my boys call me mommy, and I love it. I love mommy.

Speaker 13 I call my mother mommy up to the end of her life.

Speaker 14 Yeah. And you call your daddy daddy, right?

Speaker 13 I call him daddy, yeah. I call him daddy.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Obviously, I'm 80.
They're not alive anymore. Unfortunately, I wish they were.

Speaker 13 They were.

Speaker 13 My brother and I talk about how fortunate we were to have them. And they never really asked us if we won.
You know, so many parents go, did you win? Did you win? Did you win? I know.

Speaker 14 They go, how'd your day go?

Speaker 13 Of course, if I lost, I was just crazed. I said, I lost my match.
I lost my match. I was so bad.

Speaker 13 My dad would go,

Speaker 13 I just have one question.

Speaker 13 Did you try your best? I said, of course I tried my best. He goes, that's good enough.

Speaker 14 Yeah, you're lucky. Yeah, I am very lucky.

Speaker 14 I have to say,

Speaker 14 our son that I mentioned to you, he he was a basketball player when he was young and if he lost a game my husband and i would negotiate who was going to drive him home if we were there in separate cars which we often have i love it

Speaker 14 that is so because he would be screaming and writhing in the back seat if they lost oh i should have been with him we would have had a great time he was hysterical i mean it was So fucking bad with him in the back seat.

Speaker 14 I'm telling you.

Speaker 13 So how did you decide you wanted to be in entertainment? Can I ask you this?

Speaker 14 Yeah, you can ask me anything.

Speaker 13 Yeah, I'd rather ask you questions, really.

Speaker 14 I just always

Speaker 14 wanted to be an actor, just like from my earliest memory, I was always performing.

Speaker 13 Yeah, you were because your mother explained that. You asked her how I was as a girl, remember, in one of your interviews.
Yeah.

Speaker 13 When you talked to her, and she said you were dialogue, you know, you had dialogue going and you had this going.

Speaker 13 And she said you were always, you were always basically acting, but she wasn't sitting there.

Speaker 14 When we were in nursery school they used to have nap time you know

Speaker 14 and i would get i would stand on my blanket and i would dance for people oh that's during nap time i yeah so you like dancing too

Speaker 14 Well, I like performing. So my nap time dance was, it seemed to be a big hit among the nursery schools.

Speaker 13 It would have been great. Oh my God.
I remember kindergarten. That's what we're supposed to have, these little naps.
I'm like, huh? I'm going to go out and play. Can I go play basketball?

Speaker 13 Can I go play baseball, softball? Can I go?

Speaker 14 You know, I was, I have to tell you, when I was in, um,

Speaker 14 I didn't play much tennis because I, the one thing that I get, um,

Speaker 14 I get when I start to compete physically in a sport, I get very anxious. It's not for me.

Speaker 14 And, but I did go to a tennis camp when I was in eighth grade or seventh grade, and um, they gave awards out at the end and they gave me miscongeniality.

Speaker 13 Okay, but it's like, yeah, I could just see that. But it's interesting that you feel anxious.

Speaker 13 And when I listen to you, how when you, how you feel when you perform,

Speaker 13 it's how I feel when I play tennis. I don't feel that anxiety that you feel at the tennis camp at all.
Yeah, right. I want to be where I am.
I love it.

Speaker 13 I love the, I want, in fact, I'd love tennis to be more boisterous. I think it's too quiet.
I think we should have names on the back of the shirt.

Speaker 13 I think we are just so out of it because you know they keep i keep saying you guys everybody watch i said you're talking to 40 year olds you're talking to 50 year olds i said what about the seven 10 year olds their concentration spans seven seconds now i mean yeah no kidding we got to do different we got to do but i've wanted this forever for our sport okay because i grew up in the other sports like having hey how about have you know And Wimbledon went backwards.

Speaker 13 They go, oh, no, we're going to go back to all white. What?

Speaker 13 I said, oh, great. So now you turn it on.

Speaker 14 You need all white white clothes. Yes.

Speaker 13 Oh,

Speaker 13 no, no, predominantly white anymore. So I turn it on.
I go, oh, great. Both people have white at each end.
Okay, great. Who's who?

Speaker 13 It's ridiculous.

Speaker 14 It's ridiculous. We're out to lunch.
How do you make that change? That's actually an interesting change to try to.

Speaker 13 You know, I'm just going to keep trying. Right.
Because we have the Billie Jean King Cup, which is the World Cup of Women's Tennis now, and they renamed it after me. And now we're involved in that.

Speaker 13 And we want to make that, you know, like the soccer World Cup, it's the World Cup of Tennis. And the men's, it's Davis Cup, and we're working with them.

Speaker 13 And I think there's a real culture to it that we are missing out on that would be fun for the audience. Because when you perform as you know,

Speaker 13 everything is about your audience. And that tennis court is our stage.
When I look at a tennis court, I go, oh, that's my stage. Yeah, baby.
Give me the ball, you know, type of feeling. And so

Speaker 13 when you walk out there, it's, you know, here's what most players think or athletes. They think everyone's there for them.
No, we're there for the audience.

Speaker 13 Our job is to make the audience have a great day, a great moment. And when they go home at night, they go, God, that was great.
That was whatever.

Speaker 13 And I want to go back or I want to take up this or I want to do that. You know, it's like we are there for them.
And everybody in tennis thinks the audience is there for them. And I'm like, oh my God,

Speaker 13 you're so I, I, I.

Speaker 13 It's we, them, you know, I don't know. That's how I think.

Speaker 14 So can we just, let's talk about for a second female empowerment. Have you always in your life felt equal to men?

Speaker 13 I've never felt equal to men.

Speaker 2 Aha.

Speaker 14 Talk about that, Billie Jean King.

Speaker 13 Let me correct that. I do feel equal.
The world doesn't feel we're equal. That's what it is.
The world looks at us differently.

Speaker 13 I don't particularly look at us that much differently, just personally on a personal level.

Speaker 13 But every single day, I have to deal with

Speaker 14 some misogyny

Speaker 13 if I'm around a male athlete I'm definitely in the background you know and yet people who are in the know sometimes will say hey bud you should move over you're not even close to what she's done or something occasionally but I don't we're second-class citizens all the time yeah in pay in attention

Speaker 13 the money We make is always less. That's why I want women's sports to do well, because I know the more we make, the more people appreciate us, the more they think about every single job though.

Speaker 13 It's about thinking, oh, women deserve to have the same.

Speaker 13 Yeah, we shouldn't have to be going through this, but the way the law, what you started, how you started the program is exactly what the challenge is.

Speaker 13 You know, not to be able to get a credit card when I was playing. And also,

Speaker 13 in 1966, actually.

Speaker 13 Title IX hadn't happened. Title IX happened in 72.

Speaker 13 So I didn't get a scholarship. I didn't get paid to go to college.
I worked two jobs and nobody gave. I think it had been reversed.

Speaker 13 Let's say I'm the one that got to go to school to college on a scholarship and the guys didn't. I guarantee you everybody would be absolutely crazed that the men don't.
Right.

Speaker 13 When the men don't get something, they go crazy. Well,

Speaker 13 they need to do that more and more for us.

Speaker 14 And they're listened to. You know, it's funny.

Speaker 14 I was talking to my friend Paula about this just yesterday and we were saying, you know, it's interesting how many times in conversations, just in social conversation, if a man starts speaking and holding forth, right?

Speaker 13 Yeah, everybody shuts up.

Speaker 14 Everyone, right.

Speaker 14 Everyone shuts up, and including myself, by the way, which I'm now, as I say this, very irritated with myself about that. But there is this sort of unspoken,

Speaker 14 well, that makes sense that he's bloviating.

Speaker 14 And, right?

Speaker 13 That's too big a word for me.

Speaker 14 But isn't it a good word? No, isn't that a good word, though? Doesn't that totally describe what it is?

Speaker 13 Yeah, it does.

Speaker 13 But here's what happens in boards: a woman will have an idea, she comes up with it, but until the guy says exactly the same thing she did, they go, oh, Joe, that was a great idea, even though the woman said it earlier.

Speaker 13 And they steal the ideas all the time. time and take credit for it.

Speaker 14 I mean, and in my own life, I mean, of course, there's misogyny.

Speaker 13 Well, in entertainment, it's unbelievable.

Speaker 14 It's unbelievable. And I had to struggle enormously and really push back to try to get credit as producer on various projects I've worked on.

Speaker 14 And I got big time pushback despite the fact that I had had decades, decades of experience.

Speaker 13 Yeah, you were, and you truly were the producer of the show, one of the producers, at least of the show.

Speaker 14 Exactly. And I got pushback from studios, from various other producers.
I mean, it was a, it's infuriating. And it's also, sometimes it's, it's just, I'm not going to lie, it's intimidating.

Speaker 14 Yeah, it is. You know, because there is that little voice that says, oh, really? Do I not deserve this? Am I wrong to be asking?

Speaker 14 You know?

Speaker 13 I hope you don't get that that much anymore, that part. No, I don't.

Speaker 14 I don't, but it has been there.

Speaker 13 But look how much you've won. I mean, we'd say win in sports.
I mean, you know, all the indies and the awards. And

Speaker 13 I mean, you really have to suck it up. I suck it up all the time.
I just, because sometimes

Speaker 13 you can't, you can't. You just have to keep quiet because you're not going to win.
You know that, too. There's certain times you just go, okay, I'm going to have to let this one go.

Speaker 13 I don't like it, but I'm going to have to let it go.

Speaker 14 We'll get more wisdom from Billie Jean King after this super quick break. Stay tuned.

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Speaker 2 Okay,

Speaker 14 let's go back in time for a second for our listeners. Okay.

Speaker 14 So it's 1973. That's Roe v.
Wade and the Equal Rights Amendment era.

Speaker 14 And women are in a real fight for equality at this time.

Speaker 14 And you, Billie Jean, you get approached by this guy, Bobby Riggs, who had been a good player back in the day, but at this point was really more of a showman, right?

Speaker 14 And he challenges you to an an internationally televised match the battle of the sexes and this is after he'd already beaten the formidable margaret court so you had to win yeah and people you really have to understand how big this was it was huge and you played him and thank god oh my god i am so happy you won that billie jean so am i it was big it was a huge turning point really because title ix had just been passed the year before yeah we were in our third year of women's professional tennis it was very crucial that i win because we had our tour.

Speaker 13 And I think if I'd lost, I don't know if the tour would have made it or not, because it really helped enhance what we were trying to do. Also, men's professional tennis was young as well.

Speaker 13 The day after that match, you couldn't get on a tennis court. That's when we had the big tennis boom.
That's just for tennis, but for

Speaker 13 society.

Speaker 13 Finally, in 75, we were allowed to get a credit card on our own would be.

Speaker 14 Yeah, congratulations.

Speaker 13 But what it did is it piqued the interest of people.

Speaker 13 Both genders are, well, all genders, we'd say now, but then both genders, men and women. And women, it really helped their self-confidence.
I could not believe how they changed.

Speaker 13 They would run up to me, thanking me, and then they go, you know what? I've been wanting a raise for 10 years, and I finally had the courage to ask for it.

Speaker 13 You know, and I said, well, more importantly, did you get it? And she said, I did get it because girls are taught not to ask for what we want and need.

Speaker 13 We are taught do not go there. Okay.

Speaker 13 Do not ask. And they did.

Speaker 14 Well, there was a cultural shift because you won.

Speaker 14 And did you know, did you keep in mind what was sort of on the line or did you have to sort of tuck that away and focus on the, how did that work in your head as you were actually playing?

Speaker 13 Well, I knew six weeks out. And six weeks out, I'm a mess.
I'm thinking about all the consequences. I'm picturing myself running every ball down.
I'm picturing myself making every shot.

Speaker 13 I'm picturing bad calls. I picture how I'm going to react to that.
I'm not going to react. I'm going to stay.
I'm going to get in the next point right away. I'm going to stay focused.

Speaker 13 I'm not going to talk. I picture myself making every shot, running every shot down.
I picture my shot getting every serve in, everything,

Speaker 13 but also responding to things that aren't great. I also go out the day before.

Speaker 13 and meet all the security guards. I meet all the administrators.
I meet everybody there.

Speaker 13 And nothing is, this is an astrodome. Nothing's worse than not, is getting lost in an arena.
I get to know everybody. I went in the stands.

Speaker 13 I went up to the top in the cheap seats to see what it would feel like as a fan. In other words, I totally prepare.
I'm really big on preparation.

Speaker 13 I think process is just

Speaker 13 how you win. You stay in the now.
You stay in the present. Well, I know when you're acting, aren't you in the present? Totally.
And when you don't do well, we're not.

Speaker 14 Right. In that sense, it's like a meditation.
Correct. Because it's just a singular focus, right?

Speaker 13 Yes. If you talk to other people that are the best in what they do, it always comes down to

Speaker 13 being in the present. I call it in the now.

Speaker 14 Do you meditate, by the way?

Speaker 13 Yeah, I do meditate, yes. Uh-huh.
Every day? Probably, yeah, I think so.

Speaker 13 And I can meditate for 15 seconds even help. Yeah.
And even in a match, if you're changing ends and you sit down, that's a great time to meditate for 15, 20 seconds. You get about, you get 90 seconds.

Speaker 13 So

Speaker 13 take a part of that and just meditate. Just get, just get your breathing down.

Speaker 13 Just be,

Speaker 13 just be.

Speaker 13 And yes, I can do that, but I can compartmentalize very quickly. My brain goes very fast.

Speaker 13 I can compartmentalize really quickly, which I didn't realize others couldn't do, which I think has been a big help to me.

Speaker 13 I also knew that if I were going, if this was going to be my life to try to make this world a better place,

Speaker 13 that I wouldn't win as many titles. And I was willing not to win as many titles if off the court, if it would make the world a better place.

Speaker 13 That to me is winning more than ever winning a match like against Bobby Riggs.

Speaker 14 By the way, you've done both. You've made the world a better place and you've won a gazillion titles.

Speaker 21 I'm not finished yet.

Speaker 14 I know you're not.

Speaker 2 Okay, I am kidding.

Speaker 13 No, I'm kidding you.

Speaker 14 So it sounds like, I mean, you are obviously an incredibly competitive person and certainly as a tennis player, but also as a businesswoman and as a leader, you have a sense of, let's get it done.

Speaker 14 Let's win this thing.

Speaker 13 Am I right? Yes, you're right. And to me, what does that mean? Creating opportunities for the generation

Speaker 13 now and the generations that will follow that gives them opportunity. It gives them hope.
It gives them...

Speaker 13 And they can get scholarships. It just helps them be a better player, a better person.

Speaker 14 Better human beings.

Speaker 13 Yeah, but because there's, you know, as an athlete, you're done early. So what are you going to do with the rest of your life? You're like, singers can keep singing.

Speaker 13 You can keep working in comedy forever. Forever.
We know that at a very young age. We cannot do that.
Okay. So what are we going to do? So those are the kinds of things we have to think about.

Speaker 14 Yeah, exactly. Which, by the way, leads me to this question, though.
So this is from, I have a niece who's a D3 athlete at Emery. She plays soccer.
Emery's great. Yes, great.
And I texted her.

Speaker 14 Her name is Grace. And I texted her yesterday.
And I said, Gracie, I'm talking to Billie Jean King tomorrow. And I said, do you have any questions? And she said the following, to your point.

Speaker 14 She said, what advice do you have for young athletes transitioning into the working world and leaving behind life as student athletes?

Speaker 14 Because, you know, I think she feels, you know, sort of untethered without the sport that she's been playing her whole life.

Speaker 13 Well, there's two things. Okay.
that she could think about. I can stay in soccer, but not play soccer.

Speaker 13 There's a thousand jobs. That's another great thing.
There's jobs all around your sport if you want to stay in it. There's three things that Ed Wooard and I,

Speaker 13 you know, our mentor, Ed Woollard, who's the president's DuPont and CEO

Speaker 13 and dear friend who just passed, he,

Speaker 13 he and I, I said to Ed, I need three things for graduations,

Speaker 13 but I need three things I can give them that will help them the rest of their lives. You know, I want to do this.
I want this to make it simple, easy.

Speaker 13 And the three things are, and they do not have to to be in this order, relationships are everything.

Speaker 13 So while Gracie's playing soccer, meet as many people as you can, get to know everyone, really enjoy them as human beings, get to know them because you never know. Okay, you just don't know.

Speaker 13 And it's fun. I think it's fun.
And it's fun. Well, I love people, so it works for me.
But the second one, to keep learning and to keep learning how to learn.

Speaker 13 Like technology for my age group is rough. Okay.

Speaker 13 So I'm always asking an eight-year-old, come over here help me

Speaker 13 yes and then the third one is be a problem solver and an innovator and that means in real life and in work or whatever you do and those three things I think as I go through each day I know I hit on those at least one of them every day this is great wisdom what you're imparting I mean for real do you think that'll help Gracie though that's why I'm

Speaker 13 let you know I know I really appreciate it I'm gonna tell her but being in a sport she can stay in the sport in another different capacity if she loves it like this and want to leave soccer.

Speaker 13 But more importantly,

Speaker 13 what else does she want to do? But those three things I think will cover just about any direction she wants to go.

Speaker 14 Okay, so now listen, I want to ask you something. I'd like to know if there's something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21.

Speaker 13 21, let me think where I was 21. Okay, 21's right before I went to Wimbledon and all that.
I probably didn't understand enough

Speaker 13 at that time about being my authentic self.

Speaker 13 Like who am I? I didn't know who I was yet.

Speaker 13 And nowadays I think that's the one great thing with today is that

Speaker 13 I think I would have had a chance, a bigger chance, a better chance to be my authentic self being a younger person today. Got it.
Not to say it wouldn't be difficult.

Speaker 14 Sure.

Speaker 13 Or whatever, because we never know. I think trans

Speaker 13 people

Speaker 13 have a really hard time today. I think the LGBT community is having a harder time again.

Speaker 13 I don't like it. I think that we should just be kind and good to each other as human beings first.
We all bleed red. It doesn't matter what color our skin is.

Speaker 13 It doesn't matter what, yeah, how we self-identify sexually. It doesn't matter that we be that we just start.
I always think when I meet somebody that I think of it as a, I go blank.

Speaker 13 I try to go blank in my head to start with a blank piece of paper in a way before I start drawing drawing who this person is.

Speaker 13 And that I really always want to think the best of them first.

Speaker 13 And then, if they prove differently over time, then that's a whole nother discussion.

Speaker 13 But I think it's really important to start out with just being kind and good to whoever you meet and don't have any preconceived ideas about them.

Speaker 13 And we're all biased, but the important thing is to do a gut check when we are.

Speaker 13 I always go, stop.

Speaker 13 Start with nothing first. Just be kind of good unless they prove to you that they're just, if they're bad news, they're bad news.

Speaker 14 Is there anything before we go, is there anything that you want me to know about aging?

Speaker 13 Do you know what I found? I think aging has been, in some ways, the greatest, in some ways, is tough. Tough physically, there's no question.

Speaker 13 And also your mind,

Speaker 13 mentally.

Speaker 13 I don't want to get dementia, for instance. I'm scared of that because my parents had it,

Speaker 13 things like that.

Speaker 13 But I'll tell you what's really been fantastic. What? And that is emotionally, I am so happy compared to my young days.
I cannot tell you.

Speaker 14 Really?

Speaker 13 But I've worked at it through therapy, through thinking, through

Speaker 13 just going through tough times. But I just emotionally am in such a great place now.

Speaker 14 Oh, my God.

Speaker 13 I hope you are now, too, but I don't know where everyone is.

Speaker 14 Yes, I am. No, I am.
I'm in a very, very, you know, touch wood. I'm in a very good place.

Speaker 14 Yeah, I am. I totally am.

Speaker 14 But I'm so happy that you say that. And you're not actually, you know, because on this show, we speak to older women about their wisdom.
And that's, you're not the first person who has said that.

Speaker 14 There's something that you're able to sort of sit comfortably in and let go of a lot at a certain age, which is a complete blessing, right?

Speaker 13 Yes. And also when you're older, you have perspective that you didn't have as a younger person.

Speaker 13 You have perspective. You've lived longer.
Things don't bother you as much. Right.
That's why kids love their grandparents so much.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 6 Because the grandparent goes, yeah.

Speaker 13 And they say, oh my God, I got to tell them this, but oh my God. And then you tell them, they go, okay.

Speaker 13 And they go, yeah. You're not upset or anything? No.

Speaker 13 Are you okay? Whereas a parent, what? It's so different. Yeah.

Speaker 14 A lot of hand-wringing.

Speaker 13 Yeah, that's right. Yeah, completely.
Yeah, they're more understanding.

Speaker 14 It's true. It's completely true.
I can't thank you enough for talking with me today. I really enjoyed every second of this conversation.

Speaker 13 Yeah, me too. It's been great.
I really appreciate it. Say hi to everybody and tell your team of people because everything starts with team, really.
Totally. Tell them thanks again for all their help.

Speaker 13 I really appreciate it. And good luck in your lives.
Go for it.

Speaker 14 Oh, my God. Billie Jean King.

Speaker 14 That woman is just so impressive. That human is impressive.

Speaker 14 Oh, my mom is going to love to hear about this one. It's time to get her on a Zoom call.

Speaker 14 Hi, mommy.

Speaker 21 Hi, love.

Speaker 14 How are you? Good.

Speaker 21 It's rainy, rainy here. Is it raining there?

Speaker 14 I wish. No, it's full sun.
But

Speaker 14 we talked to Billie Jean King today.

Speaker 13 Uh-huh.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 14 And you would just love this woman, Billie Jean King, mom. It was just, she is such a positive human being.

Speaker 14 Let's talk about the Bobby Riggs match because, you know, he originally wanted to have this match with her.

Speaker 14 Billie Jean King is obviously a serious professional athlete, has no time for this bullshit match with Bobby Riggs.

Speaker 14 And then Margaret Court, who was another professional tennis player at the time, and she did play him and she lost.

Speaker 14 And so then

Speaker 14 when Bobby Riggs came to Billie Jean and said, now I'm going to beat you, Billie Jean King realized what was at stake here.

Speaker 14 She knew that the symbolism of this match was critical and that she had to win it.

Speaker 21 I mean, it was sort of a joke match, you know, in many ways. And then it wasn't.

Speaker 14 Right, exactly.

Speaker 21 Because she won. And

Speaker 21 then that sort of

Speaker 21 humorous way, it changed the flow of history.

Speaker 14 Well, it did, didn't it? I mean, she says that generally speaking, women's self-confidence was lifted up in a way.

Speaker 14 And it's funny because I think it really seeped into the win really seeped into the culture in terms of feminism and women's empowerment and sense of self.

Speaker 21 And he was such a braggadocio, and he was going to win, and he was going to win, and he was going to win. And that made it even more delicious, the fact that she just played the game.

Speaker 14 And she played him and killed him in three straight sets.

Speaker 14 And I asked her, Does she?

Speaker 14 And she says she feels equal to men, but that the world doesn't feel that way.

Speaker 14 What has been your experience as a woman in a world where men are in charge?

Speaker 21 From my generation, I would say that one thing

Speaker 21 in the beginning, I just went along with it. I mean, it just,

Speaker 21 I accepted that. And, you know, when I went to Duke, I went as a pre-med.
Well, all I had to do in the South at that time, in the 50s, was say I was going to go to med school.

Speaker 21 And they'd say, well, no, women don't go to med school. And I said, oh, okay.

Speaker 21 So, I mean, that shows you that

Speaker 21 I was, whatever they said was fine.

Speaker 13 And

Speaker 21 it's only

Speaker 21 I said to a friend of mine one time that I think my generation was sort of sideswiped by

Speaker 21 feminism, the feminist movement. In other words, it sort of happened to us.
We didn't, well, people like Billie Jean King made it happen,

Speaker 21 but most of us were sort of living with the reality of it and sort of

Speaker 21 keeping our skills and our power

Speaker 21 to ourselves. So women with other women could be...

Speaker 21 do all kinds of things, but it let a man enter the room and it was a very charged and different atmosphere.

Speaker 14 And describe what that means. Like, how is it charged and how is it different?

Speaker 21 The women were sort of the

Speaker 21 generators when they were together and talking. But if a man came in, there was a kind of a giving over.
It's like, oh, well,

Speaker 21 what we have to say, what do you have to say? What do you think? That's what's really important.

Speaker 21 And then in so many instances, even now, in a room, it'll be the men that, I mean, for a woman to be heard in a room, sometimes even is like

Speaker 21 people sort of sit back. And I mean, it's it's sort of noticed.
Not so much now, maybe, because of course we've had

Speaker 14 maybe now, mom. Maybe now.
I mean,

Speaker 13 I'm certainly aware of that.

Speaker 14 You know, I'm certainly aware of the fact that if

Speaker 14 like in a writer's room, for example,

Speaker 14 male writers are much more comfortable taking charge and

Speaker 14 saying

Speaker 14 what's what and speaking up in a way that women aren't necessarily. I mean, I realize that's a big generalization.

Speaker 14 Of course, it's not always the case, but it's funny how it's sort of that inequity has tiny little roots that have filtered into the culture in a way that is poisonous without our even realizing it.

Speaker 20 I think that's really a wonderful way to put it.

Speaker 21 And you know, what's interesting is that when you get older, and I would say that there are more women now living longer than men,

Speaker 21 and they are taking charge. I mean, they, they do, they take charge and they don't think too much about it.

Speaker 21 I mean, it's just like, I've sort of been waiting always, I've always done this, or I've been waiting to do this, or they, it's within them as something that hasn't always been tapped.

Speaker 14 And it's just waiting for the guys to die and then they're going to.

Speaker 21 That's one way. But you know, one thing, one thing that I'm excited about you having talked to Billie Jean King is because she truly was iconic, is iconic.
I mean,

Speaker 21 she's a figure that represents so much right turning, correct being. And she

Speaker 21 she seemed to have that like a motor in her that was just going to go. You know, she's got the life force in her.
And I say there's a woman that has used it all of her life.

Speaker 14 All of her life. And for the greater good, by the way.

Speaker 21 Well, thanks to her for, you know, women getting paid in

Speaker 21 athletics now. Thanks to her women getting looked up to in athletics.

Speaker 14 Women in athletics, period. Even, you know, back in the day, the only professional sport women could play was golf.

Speaker 21 Yeah, right.

Speaker 14 That was it. You can play any sport professionally, i.e.
be paid for it.

Speaker 14 And

Speaker 14 by the way, she loves that I call you mommy. Oh,

Speaker 14 because she calls her mom or call, her mother's passed away now, but she called her mom mommy and her dad daddy, just like we do.

Speaker 21 I love that. There's something so cozy about that.

Speaker 14 That's what I said to her. She says it's like a giant hug.

Speaker 21 It is. It is.

Speaker 21 And when you hear mommy, you know, like when you hear, I don't know what your boys call you, but when you- Mommy, they call me mommy, yeah, or mama, yeah, right. It's just, it's too wonderful.

Speaker 21 It's too wonderful. So, yeah, keep it up for all, for everything.

Speaker 14 A hundred percent, mommy. I always will.
All right, mama, I'm gonna say goodbye to you.

Speaker 6 I love you.

Speaker 21 Thank you. I love you too, honey.

Speaker 14 There's more wiser than me with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content from each episode of the show.
Subscribe now in Apple Podcasts.

Speaker 14 Follow the show at Wiser Than Me on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook too.

Speaker 14 Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonada Media created and hosted by me, Julia Louis Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamila Zarah-Williams, Alex McCohen, and Oja Lopez.

Speaker 14 Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is VP of New Content, and our S VP of Weekly Content and Production is Steve Nelson.

Speaker 14 Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittleswax, Jessica Cordova-Kramer, and me.

Speaker 14 The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music.

Speaker 14 Special thanks to Will Schlegel, and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles.

Speaker 14 Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's a wise old lady in your life, listen up.

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