Charlamagne tha God on Trump, Journalism and that Anti-Trans Ad

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Speaker 9 Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher.
My guest today is Leonard Larry McKelvey, also known as Charlemagne the God.

Speaker 9 He's one of the hosts of The Breakfast Club, a best-selling author, and a podcaster, media critic, media mogul, and mental health advocate.

Speaker 9 He's also in the Radio Hall of Fame, has hosted multiple TV shows, and he's interviewed a raft of politicians, including Vice President Kamala Harris, President Joe Biden, and President Barack Obama.

Speaker 9 I wanted to talk to Charlemagne for a lot of reasons. I was on his show once.
I thought he was excellent. I just find it really interesting all the directions he goes

Speaker 9 in media. I don't agree with him all the time, but what he's doing is really creative and interesting for a media figure these days.
And I always like to talk to those people.

Speaker 9 And he also had some impact on the election in both positive and negative ways.

Speaker 9 No matter what you think of him, and he doesn't care either way, by the way, Charlemagne has tremendous sway in the world of politics and pop culture. And he always has a sharp opinion.

Speaker 9 He's also a great entrepreneur, which I always love. Our expert question comes from Nicholas Kwa, a staff writer for Vulture and New York magazine who's been writing about podcasts for about a decade.

Speaker 9 So let's get to it.

Speaker 9 How are you doing? I haven't seen you since I was on your show.

Speaker 8 I know. I see you all the time.
I see you every Sunday morning.

Speaker 8 Oh, Saturday morning.

Speaker 9 Saturday morning. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anyway, thank you so much. I'm actually glad we're doing this after the election.
It's actually a lot better.

Speaker 9 And I know you hate small talk, so let's just dive right in.

Speaker 9 So just overall, how are you liking the Trump transition, cabinet choices, Alonia, Musk, Matt Gates, making RFK eat a Big Mac and Fries?

Speaker 9 What stands out?

Speaker 9 What are you surprised by?

Speaker 8 Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, right?

Speaker 8 As of right now, it looks like he's making all the wrong choices.

Speaker 8 But I guess that is feeding feeding into his whole outsider thing. You know, it's like the whole drain the swamp thing that he ran on in 2016.

Speaker 8 And, you know, if they're an administration that's looking to make major change, they don't want to have any of the, I guess, old DC type around. So they're trying something new.

Speaker 8 But, you know, the interesting thing for me is like, I'm not, I'm not wishing on them to fail.

Speaker 9 Yeah, you said that on Daily Show.

Speaker 8 Yeah,

Speaker 8 I hope that

Speaker 8 I hope that this works. I don't think it will, but, you know, I'm hoping that it does.
I don't know.

Speaker 9 Is there anything you're surprised by?

Speaker 9 I mean, RFK eating the Big Mac was my moment of favorite because it's sort of like a drug dealer's making the cop take the drugs so that they know if they're a cop or not kind of thing.

Speaker 8 Like on training day when

Speaker 8 Alonzo was like,

Speaker 8 smoke it, smoke it, smoke it. Yeah.

Speaker 8 For me, man, if we're still surprised by anything concerning Donald Trump, then we have really, really, really normalized Trump in ways that I can't even explain anymore. So, I mean,

Speaker 8 there's no such thing as like being surprised. Like,

Speaker 8 this is what we expect. The surprise is going to come when he does something relatively normal.
Like, I said on the Daily Show the other night, like, if he just plays golf.

Speaker 8 Yeah, but do the opposite of everything your political opponents say you're going to do. Like, just completely do the opposite.
Don't prove them right.

Speaker 8 Just be a regular Republican, you know, president who, you know, ruins the economy, leads us into recession. I can deal with that.

Speaker 9 Do you have any reason to believe he'll do that? Or is it just wishful thinking on your part or hope?

Speaker 8 That is a great question. I think it is just wishful thinking.
I think it is just hope. I think it is just optimism.

Speaker 8 Because I think the things that we have all felt, oh, no, forget the things that I, I'm about to say the things that we all feel like he's going to do.

Speaker 8 No, the things he's actually said he's going to do are too terrifying for any American, you know, to even, you know, wrap their brain around. So it's like, I have to have, you know, optimism.

Speaker 8 I have to have hope because, you know, anything else is too terrifying to even think about. And, you know, people love to say that we have Trump derangement syndrome.
Yeah.

Speaker 8 We only have that because of the things that he said.

Speaker 9 He's deranged. Yeah.

Speaker 8 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 8 He said things. He's done things.
We watched him, you know, lead an attempted coup with his country. Like, you know,

Speaker 8 we've heard him say he wants to jail his political opponents. He wants to jail journalists.
Like we've heard him say these things.

Speaker 8 I was having this conversation last week with somebody and they was like, oh, he just says all of these things to row, you know, voters up. He stirs up waters to catch fish.
I hope so. Yeah.

Speaker 8 You got everything you want now, right? You got all three branches of government. You got the presidency.
Hopefully that's enough.

Speaker 9 But you asked him not to be a fascist, right? I mean, is there a worry that they will actually, I mean, I'm a Maya Angelou girl. So I'm like, if someone says they're...

Speaker 8 Somebody shows you who they are, believe them.

Speaker 9 Yeah, I'm that person. I've always thought about that with him.
Is there one worry that you have the most or not at all? Or is there many multifaceted worries?

Speaker 8 I mean, many. I don't even know what that, like, I only have a history to look to when we're talking about authoritarian regimes, right?

Speaker 8 And I haven't read one that I can say to myself, oh, you know what?

Speaker 8 This will be okay.

Speaker 8 This is something I want my kids to grow up in. Like, no, this is America.

Speaker 8 Like, the reason that you have people risking their life, you know, to come across the border is because this is supposed to be the land of milk and honey.

Speaker 8 Like, you know, there's a certain creed that this country, you know,

Speaker 8 has that has benefited so many of us. And to see that taken away or the potential, to see the potential of that being taken away is like, that's terrifying.

Speaker 9 Yeah, you know, on this week's show with Andrew. Schultz,

Speaker 9 he's like, you're Scott Galloway. It's interesting.

Speaker 9 But what he was saying is he wanted you to admit you were wrong, but you said, I still like, meaning you want want everything to work out, right? You said, I like America, not him, essentially.

Speaker 9 That's the message you were trying to put out.

Speaker 8 And that's how I feel.

Speaker 9 Yeah. So once the election is over, though, you did criticize Harris and Biden for dropping their rhetoric about Trump being dangerous and fascist, but you were also calling for peace and unity.

Speaker 9 Talk about why that's different from what they did. And I know you said they're politicians.
You're just a guy. You know, well, you're a powerful guy, but.

Speaker 8 Oh,

Speaker 8 I'm not the president of the United States of America, and I'm not the vice president of the United States of America and I'm not a former joint chief of staff.

Speaker 8 Like I feel like when they say those things, you know, it holds a whole lot of weight. And the problem I have a lot of times with the Democratic Party is like, you know,

Speaker 8 they don't stand for nothing and they don't stand on anything. So it's like, if you went so hard, date, he's a fascist, you know, he's a threat to democracy.
I'm talking about literally

Speaker 8 a day before the election. And then right when the election is over, it's like, welcome back to the White House, you know, know, peaceful transition to power.

Speaker 8 It's like, so what happened to all of that fascist talk?

Speaker 8 And see, that's part of the normalization of Donald Trump, because there's people who already didn't believe any of the rhetoric that they were spewing. And now that they've

Speaker 8 backed up off of it, like they definitely don't believe it. So.

Speaker 9 What would you have him do?

Speaker 9 You were joking about giving him kombucha instead of Diet Koch, but what would you have him? do?

Speaker 8 Well,

Speaker 8 I would have President Biden say, hey, look, I am a person who still believes in the Constitution. I believe in democracy.

Speaker 8 This is what the Constitution says we should do, have a peaceful transition to power. But please, let me remind you of who this person is.

Speaker 8 Like, they should have took that time while they were in the White House. He should have been having that conversation to Donald Trump.
Like, that's like, like,

Speaker 8 publicly, he's still Trump's elder statesman, right?

Speaker 8 And he's, and he's been in government for so long.

Speaker 8 He should have, I don't want to say scolded, but yeah, he should have at least lectured Trump on the things that he's been saying and the things he does not want to see him do, you know, when he

Speaker 8 becomes the 47th president of the United States of America.

Speaker 9 Yeah, and you just saw Joe and Mika Brzezinski go down to Mar-a-Lago.

Speaker 8 I'm not mad at anyone who's covering the president-elect. I'm not mad at anybody who's covering the president of the United States of America.
I think we should, you should be covering him.

Speaker 8 You should be having conversations with him. Because if you were the people that have been on the air or on TV or on radio or on podcasts challenging him, you should be challenging him to his face.

Speaker 8 I do not like people who, you know, have conversations about folks, but don't have conversations to folks or with folks, especially when you have the opportunity to do so.

Speaker 8 So I think that any of those individuals, especially in media,

Speaker 8 yes, you should be sitting down there. there having conversations with him, but

Speaker 8 you have to challenge him and you have to continue to remind people and remind him of the things that he said and tell him, hey,

Speaker 8 we didn't forget you did this. Right.
And we don't want the American people to forget you did these things and said these things either. But it's up to you to prove us wrong.

Speaker 9 What's the line between covering and kowtowing, though, you know, in terms of there's all kinds of things. He's threatened networks, for example.

Speaker 8 I think it's impossible for them not to kowtow because they were kowtowing before he won. That's why you see, you know, Fox News, they've been on the Trump, you know, gravy train forever, right?

Speaker 8 And then, you know, MSNBC has kind of,

Speaker 8 they're completely on the other side. CNN has

Speaker 8 really tried to toe the line

Speaker 8 in a lot of ways. And I think everybody was dreading this moment.
Like everybody was trying to play nice just in case he became president of the United States of America again.

Speaker 8 And, you know, now that he has, I don't know if they're... if anybody's going to ever truly cover him honestly on cable news.

Speaker 9 What would you do if you get an interview? What would you want to focus in on? Depends on what he does, right?

Speaker 8 Well, no, I think if I was to interview him now,

Speaker 8 I think you still have to

Speaker 8 question him on everything that he said that caused people to label him fascist, that caused people, you know, to say he is an authoritarian.

Speaker 8 Like, you have to just bring all of those things to the forefront. You have to ask him about these statements that he made.

Speaker 8 What did you mean when you posted on Truth Social, you want to terminate the Constitution to overthrow the results of the election? If that wasn't a coup on January January 6th, what do you call it?

Speaker 8 What do you mean when you say you want to do mass deportations? Like, you know, like you have to question him on all of these things. Like, don't you think mass deportations will cripple the economy

Speaker 8 in a lot of ways? Don't you think that's cruel and unusual punishment? What did you mean when you said you wanted to

Speaker 8 turn the guns on Liz Cheney? Like there's a bunch of different things that you could be questioning. the president about.

Speaker 9 So you went hard at CNN on Anderson Cooper. You said, we talk about him, meaning Trump, being a threat to democracy.
We don't treat him like one. And you said journalistic integrity has been lost.

Speaker 9 I'd love you to just after this, I saw it and everything else, but I saw a ton of great reporting all over, maybe not by Anderson Cooper, but a lot of great reporting, Susan Craig, all these things on bad acts, bad behavior.

Speaker 9 It didn't make a dent. It did, like, as good as it was, some of it was quite excellent.

Speaker 8 I want to, I'm glad you asked me about that because that wasn't personal towards Anderson. I was just speaking about the media as a whole.

Speaker 8 And I even, you know, me and Angela Ryan, we were on, we kept saying that to Anderson, like, we're not necessarily talking about you.

Speaker 9 But you're sitting here.

Speaker 8 Yeah, you know,

Speaker 8 so for me, it's just something that I've seen over the almost last decade when it comes to Trump. Like,

Speaker 8 it's a normalization of him. Like, nobody ever speaks to Donald Trump like the...
the threat that

Speaker 8 they say he is, like, ever. Like, they talk about him like he's just a regular run-of-the-mill

Speaker 8 presidential candidate. Right.
Right. And he's not.
And it's interesting to me how we know they can villainize and demonize people when they want to because it's easy for them to do to the others.

Speaker 8 Like they'll villainize and demonize

Speaker 8 the vice president for

Speaker 8 somebody else saying that she's not black. Right.
Right. For somebody else saying that she's a DEI hire.
And they'll have those conversations

Speaker 8 at nauseum. Or another thing that I see on CNN a lot, sometimes they'll have a conservative on a panel and they'll be having a discussion that they need to have about something.

Speaker 8 But then this conservative will just come with something so wild and crazy just to derail the whole conversation.

Speaker 9 You speak of Scott Jennings. I believe you speak of Scott Jennings.

Speaker 8 Scott Jennings,

Speaker 8 the Kevin O'Leary

Speaker 8 from Shark Tank.

Speaker 9 Well, he's the less smart. He's the less smart version of Scott Jennings.

Speaker 8 But it's like, yo, and I, and I, you know, it's interesting because I think Scott does bring a lot of good points sometimes, but sometimes I'm just sitting there watching and I'm like, yo, you just threw a grenade on the table for no reason.

Speaker 8 Or the guy that was on there when Mehdi Hassan was on there, and he just, like, you're just throwing a grenade to throw on.

Speaker 9 Yeah. And it's just, that's exactly right.

Speaker 8 It just derails the whole conversation. So a lot of times there's conversations that need to be had amongst smart people who are there in good faith, right? Because

Speaker 8 you can't have bad faith conversations. You can't have bad faith arguments.
If you want to have a good faith debate, sure. A lot of times y'all are there having good faith debates and then boom.
Boom.

Speaker 8 Right.

Speaker 9 Well, that's the point. It's entertainment.
Scott told me in a break, this is like wrestling. And I said, step away from me before I smack you across the face.

Speaker 8 You know what I mean? Like, I was like, wrestle.

Speaker 9 Oh, God, I hate you. Anyway, I don't hate him.

Speaker 9 But one of the things is there has been great reporting. It just doesn't make a dent.

Speaker 9 I mean, I'm thinking of a lot, wide range of reporters I've interviewed that had devastating accounts that didn't matter. I mean, the same thing with Matt Gates over and over again.

Speaker 9 It doesn't seem to touch him in some way.

Speaker 8 Well, I think that, you know, Donald Trump, he really is Teflon Don. And, you know, I think he's unique in the sense that

Speaker 8 he's more sincere about his lies than Democrats are about their truth. And I think that he speaks to people's grievances in a way that, you know, Democrats don't necessarily.

Speaker 8 It's not that Democrats don't care about the things he cared about. Of course, Democrats care about the economy.
Of course, Democrats care about, you know, the border.

Speaker 8 They just don't speak to it in the way that Trump does. Trump will straight up be like, hey, the reason y'all don't got no money is because the money's going over here to all the illegal immigrants.

Speaker 8 Hey, the border, y'all need to build the wall. They're coming over here.
They're bringing their worst. They're raping you.
They're killing you. It's like, whoa, it's just,

Speaker 8 as crude as it may sound, it's simple. Yeah.
And it sticks.

Speaker 9 It's also a grain of truth and everything.

Speaker 8 And he says it over and over and over and over. I think that's one thing that you're speaking to.
It's like, you can have this great reporting, but number one, who's amplifying it?

Speaker 8 And number two, who's saying it over and over and over so it sticks.

Speaker 9 Talk about

Speaker 9 the normalization, though. You've said Trump is dangerous because he's funny on your podcast.
You have a comedian co-host who is funny and does a great job selling Trump as a great patriot.

Speaker 9 But is there something wrong? I listened to podcasts. I was just listening to this last one you just did.

Speaker 9 And there's distinctly both sides are corrupt vibe, right? Everybody sucks.

Speaker 9 Why? Talk about being a professional contrarian? Because a lot of these podcasts are that. You know, it's sort of this cynical attitude, like you all suck.

Speaker 8 I don't think Andrew's being a professional contrarian.

Speaker 8 Okay, tell me. I've known Andrew long enough to know that's truly how he feels.
Like he's a, he's, he's, he's a liberal from Manhattan who over the years, you know, who has, has gravitated towards,

Speaker 8 you know, some of the rhetoric that's coming from the right.

Speaker 8 And I think a lot of it, especially when you're a comedian, a lot of it has to do with cancel culture, because let's be honest, liberals do have a way of eating their own, right?

Speaker 8 And liberals do have a way of, you know, taking the one worst moment from a person and then amplifying that and just trying to, you know, do everything in their power

Speaker 8 to get that person out of here. And I think that turns a lot of people off.
And I think sometimes in a lot of ways, our common sense has been

Speaker 8 threatened, right? Like I saw something that,

Speaker 8 what's the,

Speaker 8 Seth Moulton from Massachusetts? Yeah. I saw what he said about how, you know, Democrats were easily offended by everything.

Speaker 8 And, you know, he spoke, I'm paraphrasing here, but he said something like, I should be able to say, hey, I don't want my daughter playing sports against a male athlete, getting run over by a male athlete.

Speaker 8 I should be able to say that and not be crucified for it. I'm paraphrasing what he said, but

Speaker 8 that's essentially what he said. And I think a lot of people feel like that.

Speaker 9 Here's my issue is they make it a bigger issue than it is. Why is is this suddenly the biggest issue of our lives? Right.
And it's not, they're not doing it because they care.

Speaker 9 They're doing it because it works. That's, you know what I mean? It's like...

Speaker 8 Well, I would say this. Did we, did, did, are they making it the bigger issue or did Democrats make it the bigger issue?

Speaker 8 Because when you have somebody like Joe Biden tweet out, trans rights is the civil rights issue of our lifetime, right? Like he said that.

Speaker 9 He did, but like, then you have Jim Justice over in West Virginia when asked, you know, after they spent all this time passing laws on these issues, asked how many instances there were.

Speaker 9 There was zero. So it's kind of, I think it gets used, the bathroom thing didn't work.
And so they moved to this. Obviously, a fairness issue is an important issue.

Speaker 9 I just, I think it gets, this isn't the biggest issue of our time, and it's become that. But I think it represents something else, right?

Speaker 9 It's that you don't get to say what you want, right, without a price, correct?

Speaker 8 Oh, I'm fine with, I'm fine with that. I believe in freedom of speech, but I also believe that you're not free from the consequences of that speech.

Speaker 8 But I just feel like, and that's actually one of the reasons I wrote the book, Get Honest or Die Line, Why Small Talk Sucks, because we just live in a world that makes these micros macros.

Speaker 8 And everybody always listens. They listen to me when I talk about the micros turning into macros, but the other part of that is we don't even know how to discuss macros anymore.
Right.

Speaker 8 We don't know how to discuss the economy. We don't know how to discuss

Speaker 8 the border issue. Like, we'll label certain things liberal.
or Republican based on what the issue is and what the talking points are.

Speaker 8 I remember back in January, I was doing an interview with Fox News, and the digital guy over there, Joseph, asked me a simple question.

Speaker 8 He said, Do I think the border is going to be an issue come November?

Speaker 8 And I said, Yes, hell yes, because for the first time in my life, I'm hearing people in my community complain about what's going on at the border.

Speaker 8 I got activist friends in Chicago who are telling me, Man, it's crazy out here. Like, you know, not only are they taking over our neighborhoods, they're getting resources that we've never even gotten.

Speaker 8 You know, when I got a parking attendant in New York City who I see every day come to me in tears, talking to me about, you know, MF-13 taking over his neighborhood and he knows it's because of the border.

Speaker 8 This isn't a, these are white MAGA people. These are black and brown people in the hoods of America having these conversations with me.

Speaker 8 So when I expressed that and said, said to, you know, Fox News, what I'm hearing, MSNBC runs the headline, Charlemagne the God is pushing MAGA messaging. That's not MAGA messaging.

Speaker 8 And I think that's where, you know, a lot of Democrats failed on that issue. Well, I do.

Speaker 9 Although, you know, everything is like a headline versus a real thing, right? They don't want to talk about the actual issues.

Speaker 9 One of the things, though, I have noticed in the last couple of weeks is this, I call it a sore winner kind of tendency. Did you see the NFL players doing the Trump dance? The Trump dance.

Speaker 9 Oh, you know, when Trump does that real dance, it looks like he's jacking off two dicks.

Speaker 8 Bill Maher. That's what Bill Maher says.
Yeah, he's jacking off two dicks.

Speaker 9 It really does. It kind of fits it.
There's a lot of that. There's a a lot of running around saying, you know, absolutely, I argue this, but this was Scott Galloway.

Speaker 9 They won, but and then the right places, but the numbers keep getting tighter and tighter, right? It's 49.2 versus 48.7, right? It's not a huge difference.

Speaker 9 It's half and half, which creates a problem, right? Do you think there's going to be overreach on that part? Like sort of, you know, the idea of it.

Speaker 8 No, no, because a win is a win. And, you know, Democrats would have been doing the same thing if Vice Vice President Kamala Harris won.
Yeah.

Speaker 9 They would have done sports.

Speaker 8 Yeah, they'd have been spiking the football, too. They would have definitely been celebrations because it would have been historic, right?

Speaker 8 The first woman president, the first woman of color president, like they would have actually been.

Speaker 9 Better dancer, better.

Speaker 8 Better dancer, probably.

Speaker 8 By far.

Speaker 8 There would have definitely been a celebration if the Vice President won. People would have been celebrating the end of the Trump era.
They would have been like,

Speaker 8 we know that's over. Like, yeah, the democracy is still restored.
There would have definitely been a lot of reason to celebrate if Vice President Kamala Harris would won.

Speaker 8 So I'm not mad at them for that.

Speaker 9 But the Manosphere is having a good time these days. You know, Joe Rogan, Theo Vaughn, Andrew, stuff like that.
Are you part of the Manosphere? Do you consider yourself part of the Manosphere?

Speaker 8 No, I'm not part of the Manosphere.

Speaker 8 I am a man, but

Speaker 8 I'm not part of the Manosphere. But you know what's so interesting about those three that you named? I don't even think you should put them in the Manosphere.
Oh, all right. Okay.

Speaker 8 I really feel that way. I feel like Andrew, I don't know Theo Vaughn personally.

Speaker 8 Of course, I know Andrew personally. That's a good friend of mine.
Joe,

Speaker 8 I know pretty well because of Andrew. But just listening to Joe over the years, he's really just a curious person.
Like,

Speaker 8 if you've listened to his show consistently every week for the past 15 years, he's really just a curious individual. He doesn't really have like

Speaker 8 a particular ideology about anything. He's really just a person that likes to sit down and ask questions.
He was a Bernie bro.

Speaker 9 Yes, he was.

Speaker 8 He was back in Bernie Sanders at one point.

Speaker 9 He's He's also curious about conspiracy theories, but go ahead. Go ahead.

Speaker 8 But we all are. And then

Speaker 8 there was a time, and this was something I was even telling

Speaker 8 Kamala Harris's campaign. The same way Donald Trump manipulated me and used me in his ads, you could have did the same thing with Joe Rogan.
Joe Rogan said that Trump was a threat to democracy.

Speaker 8 Joe Rogan said he felt like Trump might be unstable. And like, why didn't you use that

Speaker 8 in your ad? So I think Joe is a, I think he's a fair person if you sit down and have a conversation with him.

Speaker 9 So you don't think they had any responsibility for that? I mean, this idea that everything was up to the manosphere, that Trump won because of that.

Speaker 8 Oh, no, I think that Trump

Speaker 8 doing that podcast run on all of those, on all of those different podcasts definitely impacted because, and I said this on Brilliant Idiots last week, Trump went after a demographic that people never talked to, which is poor white people.

Speaker 8 I'm from South Carolina. Like, you know, my first white friend, his name is Thomas Evans.
That's still my friend to this day. We just, we, we didn't know black and white.
We just knew poor.

Speaker 8 We grew up poor on the dirt road in Monks Corner, South Carolina. I know those type of people.
He spoke, you know, directly to them, right? And then

Speaker 8 this go-around, he spoke directly to young males, in particular, young white males. And both of those different demographics, right?

Speaker 8 The poor people in rural areas and the young white males in 2024, like they don't, those are blocks that people say don't vote.

Speaker 8 So he energized enough of them that I think that, you know, it's caused, it caused impact. So I don't think,

Speaker 8 yeah, you got to give the Manosphere credit for this election cycle.

Speaker 9 One of the things you wrote in Get Honest or Die Lying, you had a quote that says, change culture and you change lives, right?

Speaker 9 And the Manosphere podcast helped, for lack of a better word, I hate, I'm not going to say the word again, helped change culture and make Trump seem cool to young guys.

Speaker 9 But is there a responsibility beyond just being curious or not?

Speaker 8 Not in those spaces.

Speaker 8 I don't think I'm not looking to Theo Vaughn to challenge Donald Trump. I'm looking for Theo Vaughn to be Theo Vaughn with Donald Trump.

Speaker 8 I'm looking for Andrew Schultz to be Andrew Schultz with Donald Trump. I'm looking for Rogan to be Rogan with Donald Trump.

Speaker 8 I think that is why legacy media still matters so much because legacy media is the ones that have to challenge Donald Trump and hold Donald Trump accountable.

Speaker 9 So not these guys.

Speaker 8 I don't think so.

Speaker 8 That's like saying, you know, going on late night television, do you expect like Jimmy Fallon to hold him?

Speaker 8 I remember when Jimmy got in trouble, because Jimmy shook his hair and everybody was saying, oh, you're normalizing Trump. But it's like, I don't look for Jimmy Fallon to do that.

Speaker 9 Yeah, I see. That's a fair point.
So it's into the question. We get an expert to send a question for our guests.
And let's hear yours.

Speaker 10 Hi, Charlemagne. I'm Nicholas Croix, a staff writer at New York Magazine and Vulture.
I've written a bunch about a podcast world over the past decade.

Speaker 10 One of the bigger narratives from this election cycle is a sense of conflict between traditional and non-traditional media.

Speaker 10 The Trump campaign seemed to understand more intuitively that they were working with a media environment where no one consumes the same things any longer.

Speaker 10 Much more so than the Harris campaign, at least, which seemed to operate with the assumption that the old media institutions still held the bulk of power.

Speaker 10 As an old school broadcaster who's also a podcaster and who generally practices a full court press approach to your profession, to what extent do you share the interpretation that what we saw at this cycle is the continuing decline of mainstream media in general and the rise of a media culture where there's no mainstream?

Speaker 10 Or do you see it differently? Do you see podcasts like the Joe Rogan experience as a new mainstream? Something else? Thank you for your time.

Speaker 9 It's a good question.

Speaker 8 It's a fantastic question. I think that

Speaker 8 there's multiple screams. Like, like, you know, I think there may not be a mainstream.
There might be a legacy legacy media scream, then there might be a new media screen.

Speaker 8 And I don't even know if you can call somebody like Rogan new media. Rogan's been around for 15 years.

Speaker 8 Me and Andrew Schultz, we've been doing our Brilliant Idiots podcast for 12 years. So we've been around.

Speaker 8 I think that Kamala Harrison, I disagree with something that he said. I feel like the vice president.
actually did what you should do, which is meet people where they are.

Speaker 8 Like we live in a world now where back in the day, we would say if you build it, they would come. But now you got to meet people where they are.
I feel like she met people where they were.

Speaker 8 Maybe she didn't go to enough places, but you saw her on the Call Her Daddy podcast, but then you also saw her on The View.

Speaker 8 You saw her on, you know, Club Shay Shay with Shannon Sharp, but then you also saw her on Fox News with Brett Baer. I feel like she did,

Speaker 8 she tried to do it all. Trump was exclusively, you know, with the podcast.
But I think that what we fail to realize is Trump has been campaigning for a decade. Yep.

Speaker 8 And prior to that, he's just been a big star since the 80s. So he doesn't doesn't have to necessarily do the mainstream press, but he still does because he still taps in to Fox News.

Speaker 8 He still taps into conservative talk radio. So it's not like he wasn't doing both as well.
And I think that's what we, that's what we're going to see moving forward.

Speaker 8 You just got to find people who know how to do a healthy balance of both. Like, like for, I take my radio show, for example, the Breakfast Club.
We do broadcast every morning. on terrestrial radio.

Speaker 8 We have 8 million monthly listeners. We're in 104 markets if you're just listening on the radio.
But then we take that show and put it out as a daily podcast. And that show goes out on YouTube.

Speaker 8 And that show goes out on social media. So you have to meet people where they are.
So in the future, that's what you're going to see.

Speaker 8 You're just going to see people, more people meeting folks where they are.

Speaker 8 You can't be a presidential candidate and have, you know, a bunch of people telling you, just go to The View, just go do Stephen Colbert,

Speaker 8 just go do

Speaker 8 Fox News, which for whatever, that was a reach for them. I thought they should have been doing way more Fox News, honestly.

Speaker 8 but I think you're gonna see people mixing it up and I think that's the best way to do it

Speaker 9 we'll be back in a minute

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Speaker 9 There's been endless punditry on the Democratic's failure. If you had to, like, I don't want to retread old grounds.

Speaker 9 It's worth getting your thoughts, though, because you ended up having an unintended, as you noted, role in Trump's media strategy, despite being somewhat of an unofficial surrogate for Harris.

Speaker 9 You've said that she talks like a politician. I do believe people didn't get to know her as well, and he's so well known.
So I thought she did pretty well given the situation.

Speaker 9 Who sounds authentic to you? Do you think anyone would have had a better chance of beating Trump?

Speaker 8 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 9 Such as...

Speaker 8 Well,

Speaker 8 I want to say I think that, you know, the VP showed a lot of flashes of her authentic self while she was running. You know,

Speaker 8 I just think, you know, people didn't see it enough. But I think there's a lot of people.
I think

Speaker 8 Gretchen Whitmer, Governor Gretchen Whitmer, Big Gretch.

Speaker 8 You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 8 If you read her book, which I have upstairs, I thoroughly enjoyed it. It's a quick read.
And the thing that she starts the book off letting you know is she likes dirty humor.

Speaker 9 She does.

Speaker 8 And you hear it throughout the book. And if you've ever sat down and interviewed with her, like she's just, it's just, she's just kicking it.

Speaker 8 Like, you know, she's clearly the governor, but you can just tell like there's, there's, there's a, there's a various authenticness about her that's just, that's just, that's just very relatable.

Speaker 8 I think, um,

Speaker 8 I think Governor Shapiro, too.

Speaker 8 I think he's very polished. And, you know, we make the joke that he's Baruch Obama, but it's like,

Speaker 8 but he's still like,

Speaker 8 there's an authenticness to him. I think Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett,

Speaker 8 I think Governor Wesmore.

Speaker 8 I think Governor Westmore to a certain extent. I like Wes too.
But, you know, I think that there's a lot of people who really do speak the language of the people.

Speaker 8 And I think Democrats cannot be afraid to do that moving forward. I'm not a fan of Gavin Newsom, but I'm a fan of his strategy.
Oh, I think one more person, Secretary Pete, too.

Speaker 8 I think Secretary Pete, and he's been, one thing I give Secretary Pete a lot of credit for, Secretary Pete has never stopped coming to breakfast club.

Speaker 8 He comes to breakfast club when it's not election season. Right.
And I think that's something that the audience likes.

Speaker 8 They're like, okay, this person isn't just coming around when they're trying to get us to vote for him. You know, he's coming around because he really cares that we care.
about what they're doing.

Speaker 8 But back to Gavin Newsom, I'm not a fan of him.

Speaker 8 I'm not a a fan of any politician, but I like his media strategy. I like that he goes on Fox News.

Speaker 8 I like that he has a podcast with Marshawn Lynch right now, because I think those are the things that help a person build an audience outside of the bubble of the Democratic Party.

Speaker 9 You're almost like a boxer. You got to get out there.
He called me when he was doing this. I said, just get out there and start talking.
That's it.

Speaker 9 If you say stupid things, one of the, I like Vice President Harris a lot, and I've known her since she was a district attorney.

Speaker 9 And I never thought she genuinely got out there in the way she should, in the way I happen to know her, because she's very funny and other things. And I think it's hard for her to do that.

Speaker 9 She's a cautious person. So, do Democrats have to take more risks? I think Donald Trump takes risks like crazy.
He took a risk on Musk. He takes a risk.

Speaker 9 Even when he says shitty things, that's a risk, right? But there's no, it's very clear who he is. That's the thing.

Speaker 8 I've said this for years.

Speaker 8 The language of politics is dead because Donald Trump killed it. And so when you have these people who have the experience, who have the intelligence to articulate themselves

Speaker 8 in great ways, just go out there and trust yourself to do it. Like you said,

Speaker 8 I've spent personal time with the vice president. You know,

Speaker 8 I love hearing her laugh. I genuinely love hearing her laugh because she is a person that likes to laugh, right? So it's like, you don't have to be all buttoned up anymore.

Speaker 8 That's not the world we live in. And we live in a world where people sniff that out.
Like they know you're being a politician. Like they know that

Speaker 8 they know that, you know,

Speaker 8 you may not necessarily believe what's coming out of your mouth, but you're saying it because that's what you sat around with your team and that's what y'all came up with to say.

Speaker 8 Like, no, like just go out there and have a real authentic conversation. You know, one thing about the vice president that I think

Speaker 8 that hindered her a lot, she is like the incredible Hulk.

Speaker 8 She is at her best when she's angry.

Speaker 9 Yeah, but she can't be, she said it to me. She says, I can't be angry.
I'm not allowed to.

Speaker 8 Because she's a woman and she's a black woman and it's the whole angry black woman stereotype. But man, was this year

Speaker 8 or the last couple of years not the time for women to be furious?

Speaker 8 Roe v. Wade was overturned.
Women's reproductive rights are under attack. All of these old men are trying to tell women what to do with their bodies.

Speaker 8 If there was ever a time for women to be furious publicly, now was the time and everybody would have understood. And if they didn't, fuck them.

Speaker 9 Yeah, that's true. She did Joyful Warrior.
I don't think there's any such thing

Speaker 9 in my opinion. So one of the things, as you said,

Speaker 9 you were an effective spokesperson for the Trump campaign. They used a clip from the Breakfast Clubs in one of their ads.

Speaker 9 Let's hear it so people remember it. And I'd love to get your reaction to it.

Speaker 8 Kamala supports taxpayer-funded sex changes for prisoners.

Speaker 4 Surgery.

Speaker 12 For prisoners.

Speaker 4 For prisoners, every transgender

Speaker 4 inmate in the prison system would have access.

Speaker 2 Hell no, I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to that.

Speaker 14 Kamala supports transgender sex changes in jail with our money.

Speaker 15 Kamala even supports letting biological men compete against our girls in their sports. Kamala is for they, them.
President Trump is for you.

Speaker 3 I'm Donald J. Trump and I approve this message.

Speaker 9 This ad was everywhere.

Speaker 8 You filed, just to be clear, a cease and desist but it didn't stop them from using it and making it one of the centerpieces of their closing messages and you and andrew discussed it on brilliant idiots talk a little bit about what happened here yeah i mean what happened was i was reacting to the commercial right because that commercial was it there was a commercial that was just like that before there was myself and my co-host dj envy in it and so what i was explaining to my listeners was what i saw that weekend i was like yo did y'all see that commercial that came on during the football game that said, Kamala Harris wants to support, you know, whatever with your taxpayer dollars?

Speaker 8 I was repeating what I saw in the commercial. Right.

Speaker 8 And then I was like, yo, if you're sitting there watching that, when you're sitting back watching football, the first thing you're going to think is, hell no, I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to that.

Speaker 8 So it wasn't like we were saying Kamala Harris supports gender reassignment surgery or wants to use your taxpayer dollars for gender reassignment surgery for anything.

Speaker 9 Or like Trump said, you go to high school one day and you come back a woman.

Speaker 8 like you know that ridiculous man they took it and they ran with it and you know from what they said it was the most impactful it was commercial of his campaign how do you feel about that oh uh it's not a it's not a good feeling it's one of those things where like you get around people and you think that they're whispering about you that's the guy who uh cost Kamala Harris her campaign.

Speaker 8 Like that's literally what people are saying, even though that's not, I don't, that's not true. I don't, like, there's no one thing that cost her her campaign.
And also, you know,

Speaker 8 I support the vice president, not just as an elected official. Like, she's somebody I really do consider a friend.
Like, you know,

Speaker 8 I know her and her sister, Maya. I met Maya back in 2015 when she was working with Hillary Clinton.
And then I met the vice president in 2018.

Speaker 8 That's the first time I had her on breakfast club when she was still a senator. So she's somebody that I not just interview, I have conversations with.

Speaker 8 And the thing that really bothers me the most about the commercial is they didn't do anything to combat it.

Speaker 9 Right.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 to me, it wasn't a hard thing to combat because that piece of legislation was also legislation under Donald Trump. You know where I learned that from? From the vice president.

Speaker 8 And I learned that from other people who started writing. The New York Times did a great article about it, you know, about that ad he ran, but also how that was a piece of legislation under him.

Speaker 8 If I was the Harris campaign, I would have ran the same commercial. with the same rhetoric.

Speaker 8 It would have just said, Donald Trump wants to use your taxpayer dollars for gender reassignment surgery for inmates. Like, cause confusion in the marketplace.

Speaker 9 Because it makes you seem anti-trans, that's for sure.

Speaker 8 I can see that. But I would have ran the same commercial.
I would have literally, I would have ran the same commercial. I would have just flipped it on Donald Trump if I was them.

Speaker 8 But they didn't do anything. Like I even asked her about it when she called into the Breakfast Club because when I interviewed her in Detroit,

Speaker 8 we were supposed to have a conversation about it, but then

Speaker 8 decided not to because I guess it was still kind of early and people didn't realize how big that commercial would end up being.

Speaker 8 And so when she called in the Breakfast Club, I asked her about it, and she just was like shrugging it off as just misinformation, you know, but I think that

Speaker 8 that was a mistake. It should have been really combated.

Speaker 9 I'm not sure anyone would believe, you know, it's an easy thing to twist.

Speaker 9 given people's feelings on this issue more emotional than logical.

Speaker 8 I mean,

Speaker 8 that is very true, but she answered it flawlessly on Fox with Brett Bear. But it's like, once again, there was nobody to amplify that and say it over and over and over and over and over.

Speaker 9 So when you think about that, when you think about your impact then, is that, you know, do you worry about, you talked a little bit about cancel culture and

Speaker 9 comics. I don't think they're quite as canceled as you think.
I think sometimes they overdo it, right? Like, for example, you make a ton of gay jokes on the pod and I love comedy.

Speaker 9 There isn't a lesbian joke you can offend me with, I don't believe. Maybe.
I doubt it. I like them.
But do you worry, for example, about that, about doing that anymore? Do you think you're hindered?

Speaker 9 You know, everybody has a different take on it. Yeah,

Speaker 8 I make gay jokes for two reasons.

Speaker 8 Number one, because people, I like people, for whatever reason, love to say I'm gay. Yeah.
Which is, you know,

Speaker 8 yeah, so I do that. I do that just to really mess with them.
But also, man,

Speaker 8 I like to make men uncomfortable because if you're so secure in your sexuality why

Speaker 8 does certain conversations make you uncomfortable right why do certain jokes make you uncomfortable like you know we we like to do pause in our community right like pause like pause if you somebody says something that is considered uh gay you say pause but it's like

Speaker 8 It's like, it's like after a while, it's like, all right, I get it, but some of the pauses are ridiculous. It's like if I drink, if I'm drinking water and I take a sip, somebody goes, pause.

Speaker 8 It's like, all right, come on, knock it off. So a lot of times I do it just to really make,

Speaker 8 I do it to make people feel uncomfortable.

Speaker 9 Do you think there are some things that are finally let's move along, right? You certainly, I was watching, of all things, Three's Company. Remember that show?

Speaker 8 A Million Years Again? I do.

Speaker 8 Not only do I remember that show, I have a very, very, very, very

Speaker 8 fond memory of that show.

Speaker 9 Don't go watch it again then, because because you won't when you watch it. You're like, whoa, date rape is good, right? Like, I know it sounds crazy.

Speaker 8 Oh, that was the whole 80s, though. That was the 80s.
Right.

Speaker 9 I get it. But now I thought it was funny at the time, too.
And then when I went back, I'm like, yeah, maybe not. Maybe that wasn't so cool.
But I don't know what it's because today is we know more or

Speaker 9 whatever. Do you think things lose their funniness or do you think there is too much of a you should be able to joke about anything?

Speaker 9 I know the bro comics think you should be able to joke about anything. I'm using the word bro broadly.

Speaker 8 I think there's an Overton window. And here's the thing about all of those comics.
All of those comics got a line. They got personal things that they don't want to joke about.

Speaker 8 They act tough with everybody else, but every single one of them has something that

Speaker 8 will push a button in them to make them be like, all right, that's enough. Right.
But, you know, like

Speaker 8 they don't, the problem is they don't have that empathy with other people sometimes.

Speaker 9 Right. And what, do you worry about that if, say, a young gay person listens to your podcast and hears the jokes, do you think about it or not?

Speaker 8 Yes, because my intention is never to offend. You know, I would hope that

Speaker 8 I would hope people are laughing with us and I hope we're all laughing with each other.

Speaker 8 You know, if I, if one of my gay friends or somebody gay was to come to me and tell me, hey, man, you know, I didn't like when you said X, Y, and Z or that offended me.

Speaker 8 I'm not going to be like, oh, man, I'll F you. It was just a joke.
I'm going to listen to the person.

Speaker 8 And I'm going to listen to the person and I'm going to take into consideration, you know, what that person said. And I'm going to definitely think about that the next time.
It's fun.

Speaker 8 I'll tell you, I was going to say my threes company thing, but you know what? I keep it to myself. Yo, go ahead.

Speaker 8 My father, who is an old southern man, and my cousin Rel, who is another old southern man, him and my father grew up together. I remember when

Speaker 8 Jack Tripper, God bless the dead, I remember when he passed away. Yeah.
And I remember just sitting around my daddy's shocker. My daddy has

Speaker 8 what we call like a little juke joint in the South, right? So, you know, that's where they sell their beer and everything else, play pool. And we're just sitting in there.

Speaker 8 And I remember it came across the news that he died. And I remember my cousin saying to my dad, ah, man, I'm glad he died.
I'm glad he's gone.

Speaker 8 He sat in that house with them two women all them years and didn't sleep with either one of them. And I'm like, well, it was a TV show, first of all.

Speaker 9 I know, that's true.

Speaker 8 But I just remember that. And

Speaker 8 it always sticks out in my mind because it always makes me realize why I have the type of humor that I have because I grew up around guys like that.

Speaker 9 What is your line?

Speaker 8 Oh, I got a lot of lines. I mean.

Speaker 9 No, but what's the thing that offends you that would be like, that's not funny? Don't you dare say that kind of thing.

Speaker 8 What would offend me that's not funny? I don't think that,

Speaker 8 hmm.

Speaker 8 I think when people

Speaker 8 get,

Speaker 8 I'm just speaking, I think when people get

Speaker 8 killed

Speaker 8 in like really

Speaker 8 gruesome, brutal ways,

Speaker 8 like, you know, over the years, I've heard some really bad jokes about stuff like that. And what I've always tried to tell comics is you do realize that person has a family, right?

Speaker 9 Right.

Speaker 8 So if that person's family hears this joke and decides to run up on you and beat your ass,

Speaker 8 you kind of earned it. Yeah.
You know, so, so it's like stuff like that. Like, you know, you got to, you got to think about people that are here.

Speaker 8 I think it's fair game to joke on anybody that's still here to defend themselves. Yeah.
You know, if you're not here to defend yourself,

Speaker 8 you know, I think, I don't think, I don't think it's that that's that's that's right.

Speaker 9 I think it would be my kids. Anything but my kids, I don't like it.
I don't like a joke. Or about kids.
A kid's in danger.

Speaker 8 I agree with that, but that's the reason I don't showcase my kids. Like,

Speaker 8 I really don't know why people do that.

Speaker 8 I'm I'm yeah I don't know why people put their kids on social media like so social media is like the most toxic place ever and that's why I say I'm here to defend myself you're here to defend yourself kids are kids like they're not asking for any of this like so why put them online and then open them up to all type of scrutiny my my son calls me a sharent I have to stop I stop oh because you share too much yeah a sharent I took him all he asked people are cruel like I mean so I don't know why folks would even um yeah I don't know why folks would showcase showcase that.

Speaker 9 So you're not on social media at all?

Speaker 8 Or you are? I'm on Instagram.

Speaker 9 You're on Instagram. You're on Instagram.
So you're not on X. I guess you're not on X.

Speaker 8 Oh, no. I got off X back in 2018, 2019.
Yeah.

Speaker 9 Oh, pre-Elon.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I just don't feel like that's the way. I don't feel like your brain.

Speaker 8 I don't feel like your brain is wired to receive all of those opinions at once. Yeah.

Speaker 8 Like, like, I don't, I don't, I don't care that much about the opinions of other people to want to take them in daily. And I think we're all in verbally abusive relationships with our smartphones.

Speaker 8 And Twitter and X or whatever you call it, plays a big, big role in that.

Speaker 9 It does. I'm off of it too.
I had a million and a half followers, and I came off. I just don't.
Well, Elon also wants to kill me, but that's a different story.

Speaker 9 We'll be back in a minute.

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Speaker 9 You founded the Black Effect Podcast Network in partnership with iHeart about four years ago during the podcast boom.

Speaker 9 Since then, some podcasts like this one have done very well, but overall ad revenue has slowed, although not for the big ones, that's for sure.

Speaker 9 So how is the business of Black Effect Network going, and how do you look at its prospects?

Speaker 8 Business at Black Effect is booming because, you know, what you said is true.

Speaker 8 Like, you know, the podcast market is very oversaturated, but there are some podcasts and some networks that do very very well and you just have these corporations who want to put their money you know on short bets for the most part so they're going to go where the audience is like you know black effect is i think we're at a billion downloads you know total uh with the 30 podcasts that we have 30 podcasts so you just want to make more of them which are the top ones uh Breakfast Club is a daily podcast is the top one, but then All the Smoke with Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson.

Speaker 8 Drink Champs with Nori, 85 South Show with DC Youngfly, Chico Bean, and Carlos Miller.

Speaker 8 Horrible Decisions with Mandy and Weezy. Like Sarah Jake Roberts.

Speaker 8 We got some really good ones that we've partnered with.

Speaker 9 What's the through line of what you're creating?

Speaker 9 What would you say if you describe it?

Speaker 8 Amplifying black voices and letting people know that black people are not monolithic. Like there's not one,

Speaker 8 there's not one train of thought that exists in the black community. Like there's a lot of diversity of thought.
Like every single one of those podcasts I named are completely different.

Speaker 8 Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson, they're sports.

Speaker 8 85 South Show is comedy. Sarah Jake Roberts is a pastor, right? She's Bishop T.D.
Jake's daughter. We got people like Debbie Brown on our pod, on our on Black Effect that we're partnered with.

Speaker 8 And she's one of the most renowned mental wealth, mental health mindfulness experts in the country.

Speaker 8 So it's like, you know, just showing people that black people aren't monolithic and we have a diversity of thought.

Speaker 8 So, you know, I'm not telling you that you can come to Black Effect and know exactly what's going on in the Black community, but you can get really close because of all the diversity of thought.

Speaker 9 Right. And you're mixing information and entertainment and something you said several times, which is authenticity or genuineness, right?

Speaker 9 Do you think as these get infused with politics, how do you get people to get good journalistic news sources, if that's where they're getting their information?

Speaker 8 I think you got to have good journalists.

Speaker 8 Like, I think that's where it starts. It starts with, you know, who are the good journalists and pointing them in the right direction.
Like, you know, for me,

Speaker 8 I watch everything. I watch CNN.
I watch Fox News. I watch MSNBC.

Speaker 8 I can point to different journalists on those networks, different personalities, and say, that's somebody I listen to, that's somebody I trust. I also watch a lot of YouTube.

Speaker 8 I think the Young Turks Network is fantastic. I think what they do on the Young Turks Network is incredible.

Speaker 9 They've been around a while, too.

Speaker 8 And they've been around a long time. And I think that they're going to end up, they're going to be a real major player, you know,

Speaker 8 in the future just because of the fact that they've been around so long. And I'm watching everybody try to get into that space now.

Speaker 8 Everybody's going to be trying to run to create infrastructure like they have, but they've already got it. So I think

Speaker 8 they're going to really, really be major players over the next.

Speaker 9 I think it's the left's Joe Rogan, but I don't think there's any such thing.

Speaker 8 Can we talk about that?

Speaker 9 Yes, please.

Speaker 8 I hate that left Joe Rogan rhetoric.

Speaker 9 I do too. I hate it.

Speaker 8 How about just give some balls and go on Joe Rogan? Yeah.

Speaker 9 Or just create a show that's not compared to something, right?

Speaker 8 I'll create a show that's not compared to something, but these shows exist. Like go on Joe Rogan.
Like go on Joe Rogan, have the conversation.

Speaker 8 You think Gretchen Whitman wouldn't be great on Joe Rogan? Yeah. You think Governor Josh Apiro wouldn't be great on Joe Rogan? You think the vice president wouldn't have been great on Joe Rogan?

Speaker 8 Like just go on Joe Rogan and kick it with Joe. Have the conversation.

Speaker 9 Yeah. He never has me on because he's scared of me.
I heard. That's what I know.
You think so?

Speaker 8 I don't know. No.
You know,

Speaker 8 I remember at Andrew's wedding. Yeah.
When I was at Andrew Schultz's wedding two years ago, it was the day after I had Vice President Kamala Harris on my TV show.

Speaker 8 And that's when I was asking her who's the real president, Joe Manchin or Joe Biden. And Rogan was there.

Speaker 8 And Rogan said to me, Rogan goes, how do they keep sitting down with you when they have these moments and these gaffes, right? But they won't ever come sit with me.

Speaker 9 Yeah.

Speaker 8 So it's not like he doesn't want to have the conversation with them. Yeah.

Speaker 9 I don't know. You've written extensively about your struggles with depression and anxiety in your books and how therapy and meditation helped you heal.

Speaker 9 And

Speaker 9 you're a mental health advocate. You hosted a mental health expo for the fourth time.
But in your book, you write that some people see you as a fake mental health advocate.

Speaker 9 That's not like a fake HHS head, like Robert Kennedy. I don't care.
I'm teasing.

Speaker 9 You've been very open about your struggles and how helpful therapy has been.

Speaker 9 I'd love to understand how do you look at that now and has what's happening now in our country affected your mental health and any advice you would have for anyone who's feeling badly about it?

Speaker 8 Oh man, I struggle every single day. Like it is an absolute process.
Like you have to wake up every day and go seek out joy.

Speaker 8 Like you have to make sure that you go out there and find reasons to be happy.

Speaker 8 When I say that we're all in, you know, you know, mentally abusive, verbally abusive relationships with our phones, I truly mean that because I can wake up in the morning like I do every day, say my prayers, you know, go get ready for work, read out of my affirmation books, get in my car, you know, put on some 90s R ⁇ B or a podcast or just something to stimulate my mind or an audio book.

Speaker 8 As soon as I get on the radio and turn that phone on and got to log into the world, immediately. Whatever I built up in those first couple of hours is challenged.
Literally, it's literally challenged.

Speaker 8 Whatever joy I built up in those first couple of hours is challenged immediately. But that's what therapy is for.
That's what meditation is for.

Speaker 8 That's what, you know, going outside and taking your shoes off and walking in the grass and doing grounding is for. That's what hugs from your significant other are for.

Speaker 8 That's what hugs from your kids are for. That's what conversations with your family and friends and people that you love are for.
That's what writing is for. That's what journaling is for.

Speaker 8 That's what whatever artistic expression

Speaker 8 you have that you use to get out whatever emotions you're feeling in the time. That's what all of that stuff is for.

Speaker 9 Yeah, you do realize, you do realize you're a white San Francisco lesbian, but go ahead, keep going.

Speaker 8 I'm a straight white man, but go ahead, move along.

Speaker 8 But that's why I do things like the Mental Wealth Expo, and that's why I do, you know, advocate for mental health so much because I just want to show people that there's resources and tools.

Speaker 8 And I don't know anybody who's got it all together. I don't know one person who's got it all together.
That's what you have these tools and these resources for. And it's like,

Speaker 8 I'm looking like this right now because I just finished working out, right? Like me and my wife, we got a trainer.

Speaker 8 We work out three times a week. Every day I'm on my bike.
I get on that stationary bike and I do 45 minutes every day, 250 calories, got to get burned every day.

Speaker 8 That's the same thing when you're dealing with any mental or emotional health issues. Like

Speaker 8 it's an everyday thing.

Speaker 9 So how does our country get back to that? Like, because there really is a mental health crisis for teens on these phones. I have four kids.

Speaker 9 Most of them, my older ones, don't use the phones at all. They got off of them in a lot of ways because they made them feel bad.
My oldest son said that to me.

Speaker 9 What do you advocate then? Because people are in a state right now after this election with the

Speaker 9 social media. Whether you like Elon Musk or not, he won't the fuck get out of your face.
Like, you know, everyone is in your face all the time.

Speaker 8 How do you, what would you say to people right now what they should do I would say that we are in the United States of anxiety and you know you should do all of those things that I just mentioned because we have to have tools nowadays to keep ourselves mentally healthy as far as social media is concerned you know I got to salute guys like Frank McCourt I don't know if you've heard of Frank McCourt yeah I do I know Frank well yeah Frank's trying to buy you know tick tock because he just wants to make social media a healthier place.

Speaker 8 And you know, when you listen to him talk, he's doing it because he's thinking about the future of our kids. And he's absolutely right.
And it's like, you got to have healthier options.

Speaker 8 Like we don't have any healthier options when it comes to social media right now. Like none.
Like there's no healthier option.

Speaker 8 Like you have your Facebook, you have your Instagram, you have your TikTok, you have your Twitter, but all of these spaces are the wild, wild west. You can curate.

Speaker 8 You know, I'm on Instagram because you can curate it a certain way. You can mute certain words.

Speaker 8 And, you know, you don't have to follow certain people, which is great, but you do need healthier options.

Speaker 8 So, you know, know, we need more guys like Frank McCourt who have the money and who have the resources and who aren't just trying to, you know, capitalize off people's time and capitalize off people's attention.

Speaker 8 Like he's actually trying to use these platforms to better people.

Speaker 9 Or their anger.

Speaker 8 Or their anger.

Speaker 9 I always say enragement equals engagement.

Speaker 8 That is a fact. So.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I just think that, you know, we just all got to find these different tools that we have to make ourselves more mentally healthy.

Speaker 8 And we need more people people like Frank McCourt trying to, you know, buy social media platforms to make them healthier spaces.

Speaker 9 Well, the business plans don't call for that. They call for constant attention deficit disorder, I think, on people's part.
Anyway, this has been fantastic. I appreciate it.

Speaker 9 This has been a wonderful discussion. And keep doing what you're doing.

Speaker 8 I appreciate you. Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker 9 On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Roussell, Kateri Yoakum, Jolie Myers, Megan Burney, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio.

Speaker 9 Special thanks to Claire Hyman. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics.

Speaker 9 If you're already following the show, you're a San Francisco lesbian like Charlemagne. If not, too bad for you.
Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow.

Speaker 9 Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.

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