The Butthole Story (Or: A Thoughtful Conversation with Sue Bird and Ezra Edelman)

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out.

I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is.

This is all yours right now.

Right after this ad.

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Wait, what else is on your actual writer?

My actual writer has, granted,

this list was made probably like five, it's still true, but it probably was made like five to ten years ago.

Plantain chips,

beef jerky,

Twix,

and Pellegrino.

So to summarize, again, you are not high.

No, I'm not.

You just love all the things that I would love while high.

Wait, but yeah, I guess so.

But tell me what things you would demand a rider for.

I love seaweed.

I like seaweed.

But why would you,

to what events and places that you're invited to, would you need to?

Like a commercial shoot.

You have your trailer, a lot of like, you know, that's a very down-to-earth rider, I got to say.

You should be more of a diva.

Have you considered that?

Like, what is

M ⁇ Ms, only red ones?

yeah yeah no eye contact green ms no eye contact and i want this to smell like you know i think it's starburst only red by the way can you tell him to stop airing your commercial the car max one yes why it's i love it there's there's the new iteration when asia got

i've noticed that there was a new camera third mvp when you became mvp once was that fine no You did it thrice.

How often in the world have you actually used the word thrice?

Thrice.

Have you ever

been now like 10 times a day every time they roll that?

I was going to say, I'm guessing it's less than thrice.

I've been in commercials before.

Maybe they didn't run this much, but I've been in commercials before.

You could have seen me while I was playing.

I saw you.

You probably weren't paying attention.

I saw you.

The world wasn't paying attention.

Naked?

You did see me naked, although blocking certain areas.

That's right.

Body issue.

Oh, in the swimsuit issue.

Yeah, Bonano, ESPN, body issue.

But you're in the the swimsuit issue, too.

Yeah, but that wasn't that like.

No, that was, God, what year was it?

It's funny that you

remember when you were in the year.

Yes, I swear.

Wait, hold on a second, but

2022.

But wasn't that post-retirement?

No, right before.

It might have been 20.

It might have been 2021.

Do you know what I remember about the swimsuit shoot?

Please.

Did you have a rider for that?

No, we didn't.

Of course, I remember things about the shoot.

What I remember is Brianna Stewart was also there, and she leans over to me at one point and she's like, yo, I think something happened with BG in Russia.

And I was like, oh, really?

Like what?

She goes, yeah, I don't know.

I don't know the details, but I don't think it's good.

And I was like, oh, because kind of like shrug, what could it be?

Like, what could be that bad?

Right.

And then fast forward.

48 hours, maybe a week.

Cause, you know, it was held.

I think it was held for a while.

Like the actual news.

Yeah, right.

This is like State Department level embargo.

Yeah.

So then, so that's how, that's like technically how I found out, but I didn't know the gist.

And she was like, yeah, what an absurd setting to learn about that.

We were in St.

Thomas.

The opposite.

All right, so if you're wondering how it is that I'm sitting with Ezra Edelman, who's arguably the best documentarian in America, and Sue Bird, who is inarguably the best point guard in the history of women's basketball, you should know that I sometimes wonder that very same thing in real life.

But what I knew going into today, which I hoped would be a little bit of a year-in-review here, was that Ezra, who won the Oscar for OJ Made in America and has since become the journalistic conscience of my podcast, was gonna ask questions.

Lots of questions.

And that's partly because Ezra does this professionally, and also partly because he hates answering them personally.

And I also knew that Sue, who launched her own pod this year with Megan Rapino, her partner called A Touch More, would be undaunted by whatever it is that Ezra decided to throw our way.

Now that you're retired for over a year, over a year, right?

Two years.

Over two years.

Okay.

Yeah.

Like, and I might be conflating this

from getting to know you over the past year, but in some ways, I mean, I've always known you.

You're Sue Bird, you're Hall of Fame basketball players.

You guys are sort of friends.

I should establish that.

We are friends.

We're all friends.

We're all friends.

But I would venture to say that

you have penetrated the world and our culture in a way in the last two years post-retirement

in a way that you hadn't as a basketball player.

Not only are you in commercials, not only are you doing shoots and then you're the head of companies and you're, you know, basketball player emeritus, you show up everywhere.

You, you actually are a grinder who does a podcast every week.

Yeah.

Like, have you been doing that?

I'm in the podcast.

So how do you think you're doing?

I don't know.

No, for real.

We're doing all right.

We're hanging in there.

No, it's getting better.

It's getting easier, better from our standpoint.

What's your standard of success as now this?

Because before you had a pretty clear one,

this is a very different business.

If I may lay down on the therapy couch on this side of the room,

good question.

I'm still figuring that out.

I don't know what Megan did recently.

It was an interview or maybe something I read.

I can't remember.

It might have been a podcast we were on.

And she talked about her sister, her twin sister, asking her after retirement, do you have some new measure of success?

Like, how do you judge?

And the answer is,

I don't know.

Like, I don't really have, is it money?

Is it like, what is it?

Is it retweets?

Yeah, is it retweets?

Is it comments, you know, on the YouTube?

I don't know.

I don't really know what it is yet.

I think we're both trying to figure that out.

But what I was getting at was we are, I don't, it does, it does not feel like a grind.

So that's success.

It is getting easier in terms of like the preparation and how and getting like a flow and an understanding.

So, which obviously speaks to the grind part of it.

So, it doesn't feel as hard as it did early on.

I think we're getting a little bit more of a flow together.

Learning how to do it with two people is different than probably, I'm sure you can speak to this than just by yourself.

Yeah.

So, yeah, so it's getting, it's getting easier for us.

And I think right now that feels like the level, that's, that's the measure of success, that it doesn't feel like a grind because something weekly could feel that way.

You guys have an amazing rapport, which is

That's good.

By the way, that's the head start

is that you guys are authentically enjoying each other's company.

You have natural real chemistry and people want to hang out with you guys.

So much of the battle is we're at a cafeteria and I'm over here with my weird friends and Megan and Sue are over there.

And I want them to sit with me.

So other people want to sit with us.

Yeah.

Totally.

Yeah.

And you're just like, do I want to, do I want to spend time with this person?

And that is, you guys are over-indexing on likability, I would say, in that regard.

You have nothing to worry about.

Cool.

Me and Ezra have a different proposition.

Hold on a second.

We're going to turn this down to Pablo.

Okay, great.

You're 15 months into this, right?

You celebrated your year anniversary one in September.

Yeah.

All right.

How are you doing?

How do you think you've done

in terms of where you started?

How you conceived this?

I didn't come to this episode for

this.

Oh, I didn't.

I'm not sure.

Unfortunately, I know Ezra did.

What's funny is that I have found myself at parties or gatherings or whatever, or kindergarten admissions events, which I go to these days.

And people ask me who don't know sports or me,

what do you do?

And I always have to figure out like my elevator pitch for my show, which was designed to be hard to summarize.

Wait, hold on a second before you keep going.

What do you do?

One word.

I talk.

Talk.

You don't say journalist?

Let me retract that.

Journalist.

Okay, so you say journalist over podcaster.

Well, because I go on television and I you also have multiple.

Okay, so fine.

You got some tension.

I got some W-9s.

As a former writer, how does that make you feel?

It makes me feel like the more I say that I'm a journalist, which I say a lot on this show, the more I'm compensating for my insecurities about mostly talking.

Sorry.

So fair enough.

I can't wait till we ask you this question.

I'm not talking about this shit.

So like, I was going to send me a legal letter if I ask him questions.

So I digress.

So I digress.

So anyway, I interrupted.

Go back to what you were saying.

So you're, you're in the L, you're talking to people.

And as the ghost of Christmas future, it will never feel cool to say, I podcast.

You'll notice I did not say podcast when presented with the choice of a single word.

That is low on the draft board.

And it's even weirder for me to have to say, I host a show called Pablo Torre finds out.

That's me.

Because inherent in the premise of me having to say the name of the show that you don't know is that you probably don't give a shit about me, which is an insecurity that I need to get over because I believe that people should be interested in a show that they don't know, even if I am the host and they don't really give a shit about me.

The point being that I end up talking about how I use my curiosity to solve mysteries.

I use journalism to answer questions that I'm authentically engaged by.

Considering

from whence this came and like you have a podcast, you're thinking about the theme of the podcast, how best to sort of use this opportunity that you had, like in all seriousness, because I do think this has been a rousing, if not raging, success.

You are very good at your job.

But this idea of like Pablo Torre finds out, has this sort sort of fulfilled your vision for what you hope this would be?

So I think a lot of my insecurity around answering the question in an efficient way is because I actually love it so much and I am deeply proud of it.

And being given a blank piece of paper on which I've written this, in which I can do this and be like, that was work today.

I looked forward to doing this today.

I've created a show where every episode we do, I actually am super interested in.

I look forward to it.

And so I'm working all the time and it's very tiring and all of that.

But the answer of like standard of success,

do you, again, not to sound like now a coaching cliche, do I love the process?

And I do.

And I'm proud of it.

And I can zoom out to like larger things about

how in sports podcasting and podcasting in general, there are not a lot of shows that do what we try to do.

I was actually going to ask how, if you view yourself as a sports podcast, we are technically sports podcast.

Sports ends up being the thing I love and I'm still interested interested in.

And so we do a lot of it, but we don't feel bounded by that.

As

both of you maybe have experienced in terms of what I want to ask you guys about.

Do you ever feel any less sure-footed when you're doing podcasts that are not based in the world of sports?

No.

No.

Because as I think you guys know, like I pride myself on mostly

I pride myself on using sports to talk about other things.

And also, like, I really love talking to people who don't actually care about sports.

And I think you have some of that too.

Like, you don't go to your show because I want to, and you, you do this, you break down sports and games and stuff, but mostly you're there because you want to hang out with that person.

For me, my whole thing is I'm going to make something that people who don't give a

about

sports as you might conventionally understand them,

something that you might still love.

And that's maybe like also born of an insecurity, you know, like I'm not, I'm not a hall of fame athlete.

Like, what do I bring to the table?

I mostly bring to the table the possibility that there's a good story or angle or curiosity or person I've persuaded to entrust me with their own insecurities that I'm then going to invite you to hang out with.

So

based on what this podcast is called, Pablo Torre finds out, based on sort of your grandiose vision for what you hope to do with certain episodes, Yeah.

Does what's happening right now like qualify as a complete failure?

You're just sitting here talking to your friends.

Like, what are you doing?

This isn't a real podcast.

For someone who like didn't want to come in.

For someone who hates podcasting, has a lot of questions about really taking over here.

Or is it just so we don't ask him questions?

It's definitely absolutely.

It's classic.

It's called filibustering.

Filibustering with Ezra Edelman.

By the way, speaking of which, Ezra filibustered.

What's your current one-word title?

Professionally?

Oh, God.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Icon.

Living.

Yeah, I don't have one.

Entrepreneur.

Wow.

Okay.

Is that a good one?

Yeah.

I mean, that's global citizen.

Yeah, it doesn't really fit.

But to actually answer your question before you get to your point, I still start with like either retired or former athlete.

Or depending on the room, retired WNBA player.

Do you aspire to get to a point where that is not what you say anymore?

Not really.

Or think.

Why?

I'm not saying you should.

I'm not, no judgment.

No, I don't think so.

I haven't given it much.

I haven't given it deep thought, but no.

I mean, look, you're an incredibly curious person.

The fact that you've like sort of taken to retirement like with gusto and you try different things, you're like sort of between, again, you are an entrepreneur and you are a podcaster and you are

a, I don't know, cultural ambassador for your sport and you are a team owner and you are all these things.

It's like, it's like, it's like, how many jobs do you got?

I'd see you got a a lot of jobs so all i'm saying is like there's a level to which you could be like oh it'd be amazing that in five years without thinking about of course you're always gonna be a hall of fame athlete but you're like oh i'm this and you can believe it think it

i would just think that might be an amazing thing to be able to

i mean it's never gonna happen with me what is your one word answer

ezra uh documentary filmmaker that's two words but

who doesn't make many documentaries yeah he's like waiting for the yeah, waiting for the rest of

the rest of the business card.

Yeah, but you guys are both in by the way, documentaries, uh, women's sports.

These are boom times.

I don't know, actually, that's not true.

Is that not true anymore?

No, well, for documentaries, for documentaries, okay, for women's sports, yes, because you know why

everybody watches women's sports.

That's right, I've seen that.

I've seen you guys wear that, actually.

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This smooth, flavorful cognac is crafted from the finest grapes and aged to perfection, giving you rich notes of oak and caramel with every sip.

Whether you're celebrating a big win or simply enjoying some cocktails with family and friends, Remy Martin 1738 is the perfect spirit to elevate any occasion.

So go ahead, treat yourself to a little luxury, and try Remy Martin 1738 Accord Royale.

Learn more at remymartin.com.

Remy Martin Cognac, Feen Champion, African Alcohol by Volume 40 by Remy Control, USA Incorporated, New York, New York, 1738, Centaur Design.

Please drink responsibly.

I do want to get to the idea that

women's basketball specifically is now

cool in a capitalistically verified way.

It It is not a guilt trip.

It is not a thing I want you to enjoy because I like it.

There's just real money in this.

And that must be profoundly

fun

on some level for you to enjoy now.

Yeah, it is.

I think

there's a thousand positive things to say about it.

Really, everything we're already talking about, the businesses that are going to grow, the sport itself, all the things.

The only negative for me personally is like, it would have been much easier to capitalize on all this as a player.

I can tell you that.

I was going to ask, how much of that is like, really, we have to wait till now till I'm done for this to play.

It just, it is what it is.

It's not, what are you going to do?

You can't change it.

It's like classic.

You just have to move on, let go.

But I do, I do have moments where even though the podcast doesn't feel like a grind, it's still not playing basketball.

Still not going to play the game.

Even though having companies or doing speaking engagements or commercials don't feel like grinds, every now and then they do.

It's still not playing basketball.

So yeah, it would have been wonderful to be able to capitalize on all this as a player just because that's what i was born to do that's why i don't think i want to let go of it and also you could have enjoyed the sort of at the height of

you know

what's the right word the the boom of player salaries that would have been nice i mean it's nice by the way to do what i do and like now weirdly i never thought you know and like oh do okay financially doing something that I didn't right no one thinks traditionally is like oh documentary filmmaking

same yes so what if you what if for some reason reason you could no longer make documentaries?

I don't even know what the reason was.

It is totally fine.

And there was a boom.

I know it's not.

I'm trying to make it.

And there was a boom.

And now whatever you made on your last film, people are on a regular, on average, are making 10 times that.

You wouldn't be like, oh, dang, I was born in the wrong year.

Yeah.

That's what I'm saying.

That's fair.

Yeah.

That's fair.

It's not, but it's like, you can't go back.

There had to have been all of us before in order to get to this point.

So there's something, you know, there.

The Billie Jean king of it all.

So there's that.

But yeah, would I I love to play basketball and get compensated?

Absolutely.

So when I'm being a total like obnoxious child, being like, I completely understand that's, that's a given.

You're right.

Okay.

But you're also doing okay.

Oh, I'm not complaining.

It just would have been, it would have been a lot easier because the hard's not as hard when you're doing the thing you were meant to be doing.

That is true.

Even when it's hard.

That's fair.

So the thing about documentary, that's what, no, I, I, I concur and also appreciate, appreciate what you have now.

Appreciate your commercial that runs endlessly.

No, the thing about documentaries being cool now is that they're certainly cooler than when I was growing up.

The idea that people want to make documentaries, even if the economy in this current phase of filmmaking has shifted from the boom time, which was before,

it's different now.

I agree.

And how do you feel about that?

That lots of people want to do the thing that you are as fastidious about in terms of craft and effort and standards.

Great question.

In the way that Sue is not just, you know, welcoming anybody into calling themselves basketball players at that level.

I think it's great that documentary filmmaking as an art is something that is popular.

I do think the idea that younger people could aspire to be nonfiction storytellers is great.

I do think in terms of how you're characterizing the popularity of documentary filmmaking,

you might be conflating.

what it is that makes it popular with what I would sort of term real documentary filmmaking.

So I would

like, I'd like you to unconflate it.

Yes, please.

Can you de-conflate it?

I could.

Walk right into that one.

But like, look, yes, do I, I think it's great.

Did I, do I think that there would have ever been a time in my life that I could have imagined growing up and making a living as a documentary filmmaker?

No, just like, I'm guessing, could you have imagined that as a young child that you would, could have been a professional podcaster?

Well, needless to say, podcasting didn't.

Or even just a guy who talks about sports at a level with people who actually did this professionally is ridiculous ridiculous in retrospect.

But I mean, the bigger answer to your question, or to me, what I more think about is the type of documentaries that are sort of more popular and more prevalent are increasingly things that are shown by streamers, that are sometimes about famous people, artists, singers, whomever, and that are sort of like bordering a little bit on branded content because they're done in sort of connection with the subjects themselves, who often are producers.

And this sort of idea of documentary filmmaking as journalism is being sort of pushed by the wayside a little bit.

And so, it's not like there aren't tons of films that qualify in terms of what documentary filmmaking is, I desire to make them and see them.

It's just that those aren't the ones that are typically compensated in the same way.

So, if you're saying, oh, look at this, the spoom in documentaries, I'm like, yes, but right now I feel like, like to me, culturally, there seems to be less of an emphasis on art, you know, sort of in how sort of even like,

you know, politically, in terms of like what we, what we focus on, what we finance, what we appreciate, all these different things.

And I think that sort of has seeped into the art of filmmaking too, in terms of like what gets made, what we value, because it's still a commercial exercise.

We are, you know, after all, a capitalist society.

And when it comes to narrative filmmaking, it comes to documentary filmmaking, I see the same issues.

And that's what is more of a concern for me.

So I do think there is an ability to make money as a nonfiction filmmaker, maybe more than not ever before, because I do think the boom was a few years ago.

And hopefully, something, this cycle will sort of get back to a point where you can make really good things for, but like what I've seen is the stuff that is valued are the things that I happen to devalue slightly in terms of the content.

So I should say that all of us have been adjacent to participated in,

judged on a jury, or merely just as a consumer, films that you would consider not the type of doc that you yourself want to make.

But this sounds super pretentious.

I don't mean to say that because, first of all, like every documentary is hard to make,

every sort of documentary has value.

And I really am trying to be like vague, specifically.

I'm trying to unvague you.

I know, but like it doesn't.

But the reason I'm saying that is because the whole wind-up to what I was trying to do was to say, and I have enjoyed personally many of those films.

What we are, I think, circling though, for me at least, is a curiosity around, do you think we should call them something else?

Because I think it's cool to enjoy both yes and right?

It's cool.

I've enjoyed many of those same films that you would not want to make.

Do you think they should be called something else?

Is it just to add to that, is it just when the subject is involved?

Is that like the hard line?

Yeah, what's the threshold?

Well, I do think that's a line that I don't think is.

Right.

But is that the only one when you when you in your mind, when you're thinking of, I forget the exact word you use, but no, I mean, first of all, I do think there happens to be a glut of documentaries that are now being done in participation with the subject.

If a subject has any creative control,

I have a problem.

Now, I want to clarify.

How would you characterize yourself as a hardliner relative to other people in this field?

I can't speak for other people.

I can just speak for the fact that all these things get made by people.

Right.

That's my answer to that question.

So some people clearly are.

Look, by the way, I should also say, based on what we're saying, we all have to make a living.

And also, everyone doesn't have a background as a journalist.

And so if you come to something as more of an artistic filmmaker or as something, whatever you're trying to do, or you just love the person, oh my God, I love you so much.

Sue, I want to make a film about you.

Oh, you don't like this?

Sure, we can just take that out because it's like the world needs to enjoy Sue Bird for 90 minutes.

It's like, okay, I can't do that.

That is not what I want to watch.

We're going to clip as we're saying that

in a documentary about you.

But I do think there is plenty of people who take on assignments, projects, and films, whether, by the way, even for the chick, that are like totally valid.

I'm starting to regret doing that.

Came in hot.

How the table has turned.

Part of the reason why, though, I wanted to hang out with both of you at this table is because

we have enjoyed you two

to a degree that has made me jealous.

What I consider the greatest seat in all of entertainment, which is a courtside seat at a basketball game.

And watching basketball games with Sue Courtside is, it's so fun for so many reasons.

One of which is that Sue must behave like the queen of England.

I was literally about to say that.

It's like watching with the queen.

The camera comes over and she's just like.

Only at the Liberty games when they're not playing the storm.

But I feel like there is, you are acutely aware.

Okay, so Sue is also a cart owner of the Seattle Storm, the franchise.

Wait, hold on a second.

When you're sitting courtside at a storm game in Seattle, are you like not yelling and like yelling at the refs?

No, that would never be me regardless.

Maybe in a playoff game.

I also am just like so

I'm just so immune to the regular season.

It's like, it's really hard to you're indifferent to the regular season.

No, I'm just like not impressed by the regular season.

Yeah.

Playoffs, though, like it was, I'll say this.

Game five, really all the playoff games I went to this year in New York, game five especially, it was very difficult to stay in my seat.

And I don't even mean that from like an excitement cheering for one team or another.

Both teams had big plays at different moments.

Both teams had, you know, big calls, go for them, against them.

It was hard not to like do anything.

What did you think of the quality of basketball in game five?

Looking back now, I don't, that's not really really the right question.

Um, looking back now, when you look at the schedule, they were tired.

Sucks a question.

They were tired.

And so when you were-did you know that when you were watching it?

Um, I didn't because the game was criticized broadly, we should say, yeah, for being messy and not the best advertisement for this sport that now.

So, I actually put a lot of that on the refs.

So, that I was up close and personal.

Obviously, we know I've been to a lot of WNBA games.

I basically have that same seat to all the games I've been to prior.

It's a remarkable for 20 years.

It's a remarkable throne you have.

That was the like loosest I've ever seen a WNBA game.

And WNBA games are very physical.

And that was like another level where the off-ball actions that were happening, some of the banging, some of the holding, the referees were letting that go.

And you guys know, any sport, when a referee lets something go early in the game, it just builds and builds and builds.

It gets worse and worse and worse.

So I think you had two very tired teams just naturally from the excitement, from the emotion of playoffs, from the travel.

And then they basically played every other day.

I think there was like two games that had two days in between or something like that.

So I think it was just exhaustion combined with both teams beating the crap out of each other because the referees allowed for that.

And that led to a very sloppy, messy game.

It led to, I think, all the missed shots.

I mean, I don't remember what the percentages were, but they weren't.

It was horrible.

Yeah.

I wanna, the other game.

It was a grind out game for sure.

It was a Euro League game.

I actually said this on our own pod.

That is what the Euro League is like.

Physical, slow whistle.

Grind.

Grind.

Can I, can I, slight digression about referees?

And like, so I assume you were the captain of the storm for their.

Yeah, I mean, we do captains.

I mean, I know it's not like that.

That's a good one-word answer.

What are you saying?

I'm not that serious.

The captain of the girl.

What's the best way?

And I know every referee is a person, human being.

You have relationships, I'm sure, with all of them.

But what was your mode of

conveying

frustration, if not contempt, for a call

or how a game was being reffed in terms of not only knowing that you're trying to get a point across, but you're trying to actually be effective.

So I don't think there is a way to talk to a ref.

There's no magic way to talk to a ref that you're going to get them to see something or change how they call something immediately.

That just like, I don't know that that exists.

I don't know that anyone can sit in here.

And if they're being truthful, be like, oh, yeah, I know when I go up to ref X, if I say it like this, they're going to, they're going to respond to that.

It's just not going to happen that way.

It's just not.

Or they might not, like, they might not call something purposely just so it doesn't happen in that way.

And I'm not even saying that to be shady.

It's all like a mind game.

But what I can say over the course of my career, and I really wish Diana were here right now because she'd be laughing.

I'd also draft her over Ezra, just for the record.

Next time she's in New York.

I do think there's something to being consistent.

It doesn't mean I never got loud and in ref's faces.

I definitely have.

It doesn't mean that there weren't times where even if the call was against our team and I saw that it was a good call, I didn't just go like, oh, yeah,

it sucked for us, but it probably was the right call.

So there was like, I think I was consistent.

And I think what that brought was like a little bit of good faith and trust.

And so if I did have a really big reaction to something, I think referees understood that I wasn't doing that just to be like demonstrative and because I was pissed.

But that's like the course of years and time.

Was there ever any dynamic that happened during the course of a game where

it wasn't basically it wasn't left on such good terms to a point where you had to have a conversation before the next time that person refereed a game to clear the air?

No, no, never.

Disgusted and even almost

where I did something

where I had to go to the ref in a, like

where you guys got into it a little bit.

You were pissed off and or they made a guy call and you were stewing to a point where it's like you had to go the next time you saw him like, look, like before a game, just be like, hey, can we talk this out?

No, never.

In fact, I've the opposite.

I've had referees come up to me before games numerous times, numerous, like a handful in the course of 20 years.

So, where they were like, hey, remember that call that X, Y, and Z happened?

I went and watched it.

By the way, I'm, I'm talking like the next time I saw that ref.

So they could have refed me on a Monday.

I might not see them for three weeks.

The next time I saw them, then be like, oh, actually that call, I went and watched it.

I see what you're saying.

Or, and, or you were right.

I've had that happen.

And then you say, I told you so?

No.

like, thank you.

Obviously, it sucks.

I'm like, oh, well, you can't go back.

So, and do you then have increased regard for that person for having yes, absolutely?

Yeah, it's all the refs and players, it's relationships, especially in the WNBA, very small league.

So, that's not that many refs, we all know their names.

It was so funny sitting next to you for one of those playoff games because you were basically giving me like the pop-up video.

Like, yeah, there's that ref, there's that player, they have this history together.

She does, yeah, it was a remarkable just like knowledge of all Oh, there's some refs I know not to go up to.

It's, you're not going to get an answer.

So you're going to get a lot of defense.

The small town.

Don't waste your breath.

The small town that is the WNBA.

Part of what also, the second thing that I was amused by sitting courtside next to you was how unempathetic you are towards bad basketball or even to the messes that we saw in the playoffs.

So just like, can you tell, can you, can you, can you tell the butthole story?

Yeah, I can.

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When I am watching basketball, I will sometimes text Sue a photo of what is not literally a butthole, but does demand that you tell the story so that I stop looking like even more of a perv than I have already established myself to be.

So in college, Coach Ariyama is known for his humor, his wit, and he can be,

yeah.

He can just, he can be really cutthroat.

A bit of an Ezra.

Yeah, a bit of an Ezra.

Believe me out of this, man.

I think he might be funner.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's saying a lot.

Okay, so we're playing.

I want to say it was Tennessee.

I'm like pretty sure.

We're playing Tennessee, not going well in the first half, like just not going well, like super tentative, kind of nervous, probably, whatever.

We go into halftime.

I don't even remember what the score was.

We go into halftime.

He comes into the locker room.

And he just looks around.

And the man is

prolific at like storytelling in general.

And in these moments of like building up, he's just, and he knows when to just like drop the bomb on us.

So anyways, he comes in and he just looks around,

you know, makes eye contact and he goes,

do you know what this is?

Do you know what this is?

This is all your buttholes right now.

He's

though.

This is all your.

And we were all, because, and by the way, when he goes, do you know what this is?

All of us are like, oh, what is that?

Right.

Doing, doing doing the three fingers of

clenched

indexing.

And playing okay?

Yeah, like, what is this?

Okay, but just real.

Yeah.

He goes, this is all your assholes right now.

And we're like, f.

And then he goes on to tell us, yeah, just how tight we were playing.

This is all your holes right now.

So I told, I shared that with Pablo.

And it's just...

a thing that I not only will photograph my own fingers doing that all the time,

but also.

Oh, I have a question for you.

What is the most that your asshole has been like in interviewing somebody?

Who has made you feel the tightest?

You get typey haul

been the tightest.

I'm trying to think of it.

Oh, I know more than 100%.

So that's why I'm going to like

for you?

Yeah.

Oh, okay.

Easy.

Give me yours.

I'm going to think about it.

Larry Bird.

So like you were just nervous because you were in the presence of Larry Bird.

Well, like, it was like, but it's like, he didn't like.

No, but it was like all things, which is like, I was making a documentary about him and magic.

He had no interest in this.

It was like he was basically the last person to get the interview.

He was like, oh, he's got to wait.

We have to go to the end, wait to the end of the season.

He's like this mythical figure.

I think there was a point where like I showed up.

He was like, you can come and like go to French Lake and go like talk to somebody.

He's like, you can talk to my brother.

I might have even literally been in his presence in an elevator like three months before.

And I was like, too afraid to say anything.

It was just like, he's just, so he comes in and you've been around him.

I forgot we're talking about your uncle.

And he's ginormous.

Yeah.

And he already, by the way, he's someone, this was, this was happening,

this must have been 2009.

I was interviewing him.

And he doesn't talk about himself.

He's really, never really talked.

And so the whole thing is like, you have one guy over there who won't shut the f ⁇ up.

And then another guy, it's like, that's part of the story.

And he just sits down.

And the whole, it was like, it actually was informative in some ways of how to do interviews because I had a finite amount of time with him.

And he sits down.

He just is like,

get to it.

And it's like, okay.

And I remember just like, even beforehand, being like, I got to remember every single thing.

I can't like do.

And it was, he's so intimidating because he's not going to sit there and smile and make you feel comfortable.

And it was, so that was the easily.

And he was just like a lot of things.

He's like, I don't know.

I don't care.

I don't want to answer that.

I was like, cool.

But in the end, ambition right there.

It worked out.

I don't know.

That was a very like, and he did talk more than I thought.

No,

he did talk more than I thought.

I thought, why did he,

why did he open up while you were very, very clenched?

Why did he, I can't speak to why he opened up, but I could tell you that like anything, this would go for you doing a podcast, you doing a podcast.

It's like, I was prepared.

I was very respectful.

The thing

I knew, you know what I mean?

Like, I was not there to like, I was there to do a job.

And I also think he is a responsible individual.

So he agreed to do something.

He was not going to do any more than what he agreed to, though.

That was very clear.

He's like, I said I would do this.

So I'm going to do this.

You know, I speak to, I have the,

I've been mistaken for somebody who should be speaking to journalism classes.

And so I am asked sometimes, like, how do I get better interviews?

And all I have is what Ezra just articulated, which is demonstrate that you really put time into your preparation for this thing.

That's true.

Demonstrate that you care.

It tends to be the skeleton key that unlocks so many people.

And Ezra, by the way, is the most extreme version of that for those who are unfamiliar with his work.

That is, you over-index on having that credibility, I would say.

I think it's the most respectful or the respectful thing to do.

Still,

in front of whom has your butthole been most clenched?

So the answer to this is embarrassing because I thought I was too cool.

And it was not even a deep dive sit-down interview, but I talked to LeBron for a magazine piece one-on-one after a practice.

And what LeBron did

was

render me like

the anonymous journalist character in a movie scene about LeBron doing an interview because he, this is not an exaggeration.

He literally throws the basketball off the wall of the practice facility, maybe like 40 feet in the air.

It caroms off, bounces back, bounces.

He takes it, tomahawk, dunks it to finish practice, and then walks over to me.

And I,

I would need to, the jaws of life couldn't have opened up my butthole at that moment.

How'd the interview go?

It was fine.

Can we bring this back to the WNBA for a second, which is we, you know, It's been a lot, you know, one of the storylines, as you like to say, of the season

was of Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese and sort of the special treatment that Caitlin perceived, rough treatment that she got from players.

The targeting.

The targeting.

The targeting.

Anyway, this is all Lee have to say that when you were a player,

what's the most offensive question you got?

Honestly, the only thing I can pull right now is somebody was doing, I don't even remember who it was,

doing just like, a basic,

it wasn't even a thing on me.

It might have been on our team, might have been on the playoff run.

I know it was during the playoffs.

And he just continued to get facts wrong.

Were you silently judging or did you actually say something?

I was passive-aggressive at the end, and I got my little dig in.

And that was it.

It is true that, like, the idea that unlike Pablo and I,

you have been the subject

thousands of times.

And so that's a whole different lens through which you, and so that must inform how you're talking to people because you know how you like to be talked to.

A little bit, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think it's in the back of my head for sure.

I like it when it's more conversational.

I think most people do.

Of course.

Yeah.

So, but that, but even that premise, right?

Like, I think that part of what Ezra does as a questioner

is do both somehow, where there is

There is the sense of this guy could conduct an inquisition, but somehow, shockingly, he has disarmed and charmed me into just talking to him about the things that I don't actually want to talk about.

Yes.

And I actually would struggle with that.

What do you mean?

Every now and then, I have this thought of like, oh, what if I had an athlete and there was some sort of controversial thing that I would love for them to share on my show?

But like, that feels icky to try to get that out of them.

I struggle with that.

I don't have that feeling at all.

Yeah, I know.

I would assume both, neither of you.

But I think as an athlete or somebody who got interviewed a lot, I don't want to be that person.

But and it feels like you're

but this is the medium.

You're exploiting a friendship or a relationship, maybe.

I don't like that thought.

But this is the medium.

I know, but that doesn't mean I have to be that.

No, what I'm saying, but this is the idea of like, if you're doing a podcast, why does one have a podcast?

You have a podcast to talk to people important.

I have like, but why do you have to get the controversial thing out?

Why is that?

You don't.

I think Ezra and I have different sort of maybe thresholds on that.

I imagine that Sue and the two of us, Ezra, probably have a bigger gap in terms of like the ickiness of feeling like

I didn't want you to do that.

The whole point, in fact, is that we have sort of worked to earn a trust that you then implicitly

don't complain about when we decide to tell a story that isn't the one that you want to tell.

Well, when people talk to you, they also probably go into it understanding.

They might get asked.

If I'm going into an interview,

I understand with certain people.

I understand, like, I'm likely going to get asked.

I'm trying to think of an example.

I'm just going to use this random one, but I think it's best.

Let's say,

I don't know how familiar you are.

Diana's name is top of mind since I just brought it up.

She had a fight with a teammate two years ago, Skylar Diggins, on the bench.

Everybody saw it, whatever.

With under three to play here in the quarter, and a little extra testiness on the Mercury bench between Skylar Diggins Smith and Diana Taurasi.

Oh, to be a fly on Turner's shoulder to hear that conversation.

Well, Diggins Smith, she's got two points.

She's one of four.

Let's say Dee was set to come on my podcast and she's sitting there.

I would feel icky being like, so what happened?

Whereas I feel like a lot of people are like, Dee, recently this happened.

Can you talk us through it?

Or whatever you would say.

That moment feels like, eh, even though I'm curious.

There is such immense power in what the journalist chooses to include and leave out.

Omission is a wildly impactful thing

because it is not merely, I'm going to twist your words.

It's

I am deciding what is relevant.

So, when we were at the Olympics, we did a live show and we had Don Staley on.

We had Carl Lewis on, and then Mia Hamm came on.

And it was in the conversation with Mia.

I wasn't even involved, so this is more of a Megan thing.

Megan just knew what question to ask, and it wasn't because of preparation, it wasn't because she knew the answer.

She just like stumbled onto it as the conversation happened.

And eventually, I don't remember the exact question, but eventually they got to a moment where Mia shared that Emma Hayes, who's the current national team coach, actually brought back that 1999 World Cup winning team to like be with the current players, right?

Bridging a gap, bringing it, I mean, the fact that coaches don't do this all the time actually, or the previous coaches hadn't done that actually shocked me.

And for Mia, in that moment, as she's answering, she gets emotional.

It wasn't like a boo-hoo cry session, but you could see eyes start to well up.

She's getting like emotional at the fact that other coaches hadn't done it.

She felt a little, these are my words, maybe a little disconnected from it all.

And now, Emma was bringing that all back together and that, how, how meaningful that was for Mia.

And that's something that we didn't, like I said, prepare for, think about, just stumbled upon it.

But really, only Megan probably could have gotten that.

So, how did you react to it?

I assume that's the first time someone teared up on your podcast.

Yes.

How did you react when you're seeing someone feel that emotional in a genuine expression?

I loved it.

I thought because it was real, it was,

I could like feel what she was saying through my own experience.

So I, I, I mean, I wasn't feeling the emotion build by any means, but I could definitely in that moment connect to what she was saying.

I think when you retire and time goes on, you do just naturally feel disconnected from it.

I think you answered in a way that reveals the disconnect because you're feeling the feelings as if you are the person.

I would be feeling the feelings of somebody who just got a great interview.

Has anyone teared up

doing this show with you?

Yeah.

How did you react when they teared up?

With the craven enthusiasm of someone who's like, that's going to be a good clip.

See, you know what you just did there, right?

You answered that sarcastically and disingenuously when, in fact, that's kind of true.

Well, Ezra, I believe it's time to end this interview.

But that is, by the way, but that is

the tension in me.

Constantly trying to make a show to answer the elevator pitch question that is not every other show, while needing to compete with shows that are, in fact, thinking clip first.

Like, if you listen to or watch the show we make, this is not a show that's engineered to produce viral clips.

If it happens, it happens so incidentally that it makes me truly like thankful that it happened and also recognize the metric upside of this thing.

But

I'm not going for that.

So my enjoyment and my sarcasm is, yeah, both true and a lie.

I want it, but I don't aim for it.

What was your level of anxiety when you're thinking?

So when you did the ESPN Daily, right?

I assume you're Pablo Torre, you're a journalist, you're doing this every day.

And so you are not as Pablo

prominent.

in that dynamic.

Is that correct?

My name wasn't in the show.

Okay.

In the show title.

And so, like, what is is your idea that you have a show that your name is in and you're willing to talk about yourself and make fun of yourself?

And, like,

what's the balance between your comfort in terms of focusing on your own psychology and focusing on your own profile when at the same time, you're a journalist talking to other people.

So, you're both personality and star of your own show, but you clearly are trying to tell other people's stories.

Yeah, I do feel like I am constantly testing the tolerance of people.

Like right now, as you're asking me the question, I'm like, I think it's probably time to be done.

Like, I don't think people want to know that much more about my psychology.

My radar and my compass is in finding you guys, exploiting your introspection.

And for me, like, I am always going to bet on my ability to discern what is interesting about someone else.

I am far less confident in what people actually might agree with me about when it comes to my own.

What about Butter You?

Butter Me.

What is that?

Oh, I hate you.

Look at this.

Just super bird, Sue Bird, actual PTFO listener.

You just told me that.

Ezra Edelman.

Just exploiter.

Exploiter of friendships.

Wow.

Yeah, you're right.

It is a more recent episode, though.

It is.

It is.

What's the well, anyway, go ahead.

Sorry, answer the question, and that can be cut out.

Because Because Butter Me looks confident.

Butter Me, Butter, Butter You looks confident.

Butter Me.

Butter Me.

We had a sculpture of me made out of butter

that we presented to Jerry Saltz, Pulitzer Prize winning art critic.

He was tough.

He was great.

And he was a

tough critic.

I missed this one.

I'm sorry.

You would appreciate it, actually, because of his.

You would.

You would actually love it.

Okay, but he sent me, I I mean, he sometimes sends me podcasts that he is proud of and wants me to listen to.

So, the last one he sent me was his conversation with Connie Chung, yeah, which I enjoyed,

which I did, and I appreciate that because I am again thirsting for all sorts of engagement.

I did see the clips, metric, and otherwise.

Um, the point with the butter meat thing being that um, I think it churned out great.

This has been Pablo Torre finds out a Metalark media production,

and I'll talk to you next time.